1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: A friend of mine described it really well. She said, 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: it's not like he's a catch me if you can 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: type person. He actually lies to make himself as normal 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: as possible, just like your average vote. And it's true 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: his bacade was authenticity. 6 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, A show about 7 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that 8 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 2: change everything. Tina Maya is a successful e commerce consultant 9 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: in the UK. In twenty sixteen, a casual, romantic fling 10 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 2: turned her entire world upside down. It showed her a 11 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 2: dark side of humanity, one that she'd never seen before. 12 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: There's definitely an element of control. He can walk away, 13 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: but he can remotely control the rest of your life. 14 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 2: Her story is also one of community. Along the way, 15 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: she found a group of other women who had been 16 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: deceived and betrayed by the same man. Tina's become their 17 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: spokesperson and the spokesperson for a much larger story. Tina 18 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 2: was raised to be opinionated and strong willed. 19 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: So I was born in Iran actually before the revolution. 20 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,559 Speaker 1: We came here in nineteen seventy eight, and I grew 21 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: up in Southeast England, though very green leafy parts of 22 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: the world. 23 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: When she graduated from university, traveled and spent years living abroad. 24 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: I went to Australia, in Thailand and India, as well 25 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: a lot of places Costa Rica. You know that I 26 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time to building my career and 27 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: living life. 28 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: In the nineties and two thousands, Tina was early to 29 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: adopt the internet's potential, especially for commerce and online retail. 30 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: She made a career working in digital sales that ended 31 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 2: up taking her to New York City, where she met 32 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,119 Speaker 2: her husband. By her mid thirties, he welcomed a son, Leo. 33 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: He was an incredible baby and I really enjoyed becoming 34 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: a mother. 35 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: But her husband, on the other hand, struggled. 36 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: He wasn't a very handsome father. It was just sea 37 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: with me. It gets work for a while. 38 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: When Tina was offered a prestigious job back in the UK, 39 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: she separated from her husband and made the leap. Now 40 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 2: her daily life was focused on work and raising her son. 41 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: For Tina, being a single mom to one child felt manageable. 42 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: She loved that dynamic. 43 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: I was at a mom's drinks thing and I remember 44 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: having a conversation with one of the moms who had 45 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,119 Speaker 1: a lot of problems with the second child sitting. They're like, God, 46 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: you got to write like one child the dream. 47 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 2: When her son started grade school, Tina had more nights 48 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: to herself. 49 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: He spends more time with friends, he goes sleepovers, but 50 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: a little bit more independence. I wasn't actively going out 51 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: and dating or anything like that. I was so busy. 52 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: I wasn't even thinking about dating. It wasn't on the radar. 53 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: In twenty sixteen, she attended a tech conference in London. 54 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: That day she must have met in exchange contact info 55 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: with at least thirty people, one of them being Neil Lahman. 56 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: He's a very charismatic person. He's very good looking. I 57 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: suppose he was a bit flirtatious. 58 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: Neil was from Essex. To put it in American terms. 59 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: I guess the American version would be Jersey shure. 60 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: Think party culture in SPRAYTNDS. Tina's interaction with Neil was 61 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 2: nothing special, just a friendly exchange of business cards. She 62 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,559 Speaker 2: assumed it was a professional connection, but soon Neil began 63 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: texting her, and. 64 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: Then one day he texted me and I had just 65 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: closed a very significant deal. So I was in a 66 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: very good mood, and he said that he was in 67 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: the area and asked me if I fancied. 68 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 2: Going for a drink that night. Her son was at 69 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: a sleepover. 70 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: I said, you know what, why not. 71 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 2: It was perfect timing, so they met at a neighborhood pub. 72 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: We sat down and started talking. He was very open, 73 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: asked me about you my life. 74 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 2: She talked about her son and her ex husband in America, 75 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: and Neil shared details about his past. 76 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: He told me that his ex wife they lived together 77 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: in the US, and she had cheated on him and 78 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: she'd run off with his best friend. 79 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: The reason his wife had left was because Neil couldn't 80 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: have kids. 81 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: She was very bitter about the fact that he couldn't 82 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: give her children. And then he went on to tell 83 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: me about the fact that he'd had cancer and has 84 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: testicular kind of it was impossible. 85 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 2: It was a touchy subject. Neil seemed deeply hurt by 86 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 2: his ex wife. Tina felt for him. 87 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: He seemed almost a little bit vulnerable, like he had 88 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: this sort of emotional vulnerability about him. 89 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: The name was going well, and before long they found 90 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: themselves in another bar, making jokes and inching closer together. 91 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 2: She liked him, but she wanted to keep it casual. 92 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: I didn't see it as being a long term, serious 93 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: relationship prospect. That was not where my head was. It's 94 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: not the sort of time that I had. I wasn't 95 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: interested in bringing anyone into my son's life. It was 96 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: just letting my head down and having a bit of fun. 97 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: Really, and Neil knew how to have a good time. 98 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: He had that sort of cheeky, chappy jack the lad 99 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: kind of thing about him. It was fun. 100 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 2: At the end of their night together. 101 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: He walked me home in the very early hours of 102 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: the morning. 103 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 2: They kissed good night, and Neil said he wanted to 104 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: see her again. He was often in her area because 105 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: he owned and managed a few properties there. He promised 106 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: to text the next time he was in her neighborhood, 107 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: and he did so. After their first night out together. 108 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: He continued to text me, and then he would come 109 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: over once a week or so. 110 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: Tina couldn't remember the last time she had a fling 111 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: like this. It had to have been well before her marriage. 112 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: It was just what she needed. It made her feel 113 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: sexy and confident. Before they slept together, I. 114 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: Said to him that it wasn't on the pill. Does 115 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: he have anything. He said, no, I'm really allergic to 116 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: They text. 117 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: Tina was forty one, and after his testicular cancer treatments, 118 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: Neil couldn't have kids without the pill or using regular condoms. 119 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: They settled on another method. 120 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: I was quite adamant about using withdrawal methods, and I 121 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: asked him, did you withdraw in time? Because I could 122 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: have gone and got a plan B, but he was like, no, absolutely. 123 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: Over the next few months, they saw each other whenever 124 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: they could, and Tina got to know more about him. 125 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: He said that he went to the London School of Economics, 126 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: which is sort of Harvard Business School level. 127 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: But when Tina tried to talk about the neighborhood where 128 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: are the schools located? Neil seemed confused, like he didn't 129 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: know the area. But it had been decades since Neil 130 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: was in school, so Tina didn't think much of it. 131 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: I didn't really question it too much. I wasn't thinking 132 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: of him as husband's material or something, so things weren't 133 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: registering too much with me. 134 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: Eventually, Neil's appeal started to wear off. 135 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: There was just one too many things that just wasn't 136 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: adding out for ringing true, like he would make a 137 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: plan and then have some weird excuse and like it 138 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: started to be less fun. 139 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 2: Now she was ready to move on, so she stopped 140 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: responding promptly to his texts. 141 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: Kind of wanted to phase it out anyway, So it 142 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: got a little cold. 143 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 2: A few weeks later, she didn't feel quite like herself. 144 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: It was misplacing things. I was looking for my car 145 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: keys all over the place and realized that I turned 146 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: them in the wheelie bin with my rubbish when I 147 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: threw the rubbish out. 148 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: This feeling was familiar. 149 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: Funny thing. I normally handy things like that. When I'm pregnant. 150 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: I don't get morning sickness, I don't get cravings, but 151 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: I get very forgetful. 152 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 2: She confided in a friend about what was going on. 153 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: She said, to me, go and get a pregnancy test. 154 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: And she said, as soon as you do that, I 155 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: mean you realize that you know you're not pregnant. Then 156 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: the period of I'm like, you know that. That's a 157 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: really good idea. 158 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 2: So she got the test. 159 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: So I went to the back room and read the 160 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: instructions and then yeah, popped the lad on your space 161 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: to wait three minutes. Immediately came up quite nant. Okay, 162 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: I'll just wait the full three minutes for the knot 163 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: to come up. 164 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: She was pregnant at forty one. Even though it was 165 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: unexpected and unplanned, she felt immediately connected to this child. 166 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: It's hard to describe, but she was very present in me, 167 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: very early on. There was something very very strong about 168 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: this presence, and I felt that right away. 169 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: Even still, it was a massive shock because the baby 170 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 2: had to be meals. 171 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: There hadn't been anybody else. 172 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 2: But Neil was infertile, so this baby was a medical miracle. 173 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 2: Tina turned to her friend, who suggested maybe Neil would 174 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: be happy about the baby. 175 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: She was like, oh, all these years, he didn't know 176 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: that he could have children. 177 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: Miracle baby or not. Tina knew that she and Neil 178 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: didn't have a future together. Now she had to break 179 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: up with him and tell him the news. 180 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: Wow, okay, this is going to be awkward. There. 181 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: She took a few days to think and finally sent 182 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 2: Neil a message. 183 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: So I said, I need to talk to you, but 184 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: to meet up tomorrow. I can come to meet you, 185 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: but need to have a little chat. And then he 186 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: said something along the lines of yeah, yeah, sure, I'll 187 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: send my brother to meet you and I know because 188 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: we need to talk. And he said, well, I don't 189 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: see why there's anything you can't tell me here. I 190 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: was like, really, you want me to tell you what 191 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: I need to tell you over text and he said yeah. 192 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, Hi, if you insist, and so 193 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: I said, I am pregnant. You are the only option 194 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: of who the father is. And then he answered a 195 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: little bit strangely, he said, nice, try. I had a 196 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: vasect to me and I was like thesectomy and I 197 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: sent him a picture of the pregnancy test and I said, 198 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: well it didn't work. 199 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: She wasn't expecting anything from him. 200 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: One of the things that I immediately said was I'm 201 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: not expecting or asking you to be a father to 202 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: the child. I am letting you know because it's a 203 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: responsible thing to do, and you can be as I'm involved, 204 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: as you wish. 205 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: She didn't know how he would react, but she certainly 206 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 2: wasn't expecting what happened. 207 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: Next. Things turned nasty on his part, which took me aback. 208 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: He said, the whole load of nasty voice mails. 209 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 3: Hi, T you know, let's talk about this baby. Okay. Now, 210 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 3: there's something very strange about this baby. Let me explain 211 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 3: it to. 212 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: You, and you could just hear in his voice that turn, 213 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: and how nasty he became. Its like real viteroal. 214 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: In these messages, Neil doubled down on his story. 215 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: I have zero span is medically impossible. If it were, 216 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 3: I'd still be living happier with my wife in the USA. 217 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 3: We split up because she wanted kids and I couldn't 218 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 3: have them. 219 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 2: As the messages and cars kept coming, they got more personal. 220 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: He's the thing that you'd be a single mom, you 221 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: won't be able to get a job, and you won't 222 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: be able to work. 223 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: And you'll be poor, then meaner, and. 224 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: Oh he accused me of thinking of him as a 225 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: cash can. 226 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: Then kind of scary, and then. 227 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: He said that he had gone to the police and 228 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: reported me to the police. At first he said harassment, 229 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: and then he said that he'd reported me for entrapment. 230 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: And some of his messages were downright strange. 231 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: He started to come up with a story when he 232 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: was in the hospital with his kidney infection, they found 233 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: cancer cells, and how selfish I am, and what a 234 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: horrible person I am at having told him that I 235 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: was pregnant, then that I'm basically killing him. 236 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: From her first date with Neil, she knew he wasn't 237 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: a keeper. She had no idea he could be this cruel. 238 00:14:53,880 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: Whoa, this is not normal. This was really strange. 239 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: So I'm going to tell you something. I will have 240 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 3: nothing to do with you, nothing to do with you 241 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 3: claiming I'm father of your child. You can keep the baby. 242 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 3: Great for you, but it ain't mind, darling. It's seriously, seriously, 243 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 3: he isn't mine. 244 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: I just thought he was an asshole. My friend, she's 245 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: kinder than me, thought that he was in some sort 246 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: of state of shock because he thought he could never 247 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: have children. 248 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: But Neil wasn't in shock, and he wasn't in denial. 249 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: Tina didn't know it at the time, but this was 250 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: something far more insidious. 251 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: This is something that he's got too many, many, many 252 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: many times over. 253 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 2: When Tina Maya told the man she'd been casually dating 254 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: she was pregnant, he became a different person. Neil Lawman 255 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: started sending her callous voice messages about how the baby 256 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: could not possibly be his. He even accused Tina of harassment. 257 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: Regardless of his disturbing reaction, Tina wanted to have the 258 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: baby on her own. She was sure of that, so 259 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: after his vitriolic messages, she drew a boundary with Neil. 260 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: They said, yeah, I'll let you know when she's born 261 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: and you can decide to be what to have a 262 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: dnatist or not. That's you're right, And then he replied, no, 263 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: thank you. I will not be participating in any dnatist. Okay, 264 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: no worries. 265 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 2: As far as Tina was concerned, Neil was out of 266 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: the picture, and. 267 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: I went on obviously I had a lot to deal with. 268 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 2: She blocked him and moved forward with the rest of 269 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 2: her pregnancy. It wouldn't be her first time as a 270 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: single mom. Tina's friends and family rallied around her to 271 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: buy support, and she needed it, especially when the baby 272 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: was born. 273 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: When I went into labor, both she and I got 274 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: an infection. She wet blue, and she was there in 275 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: an incubator. She also had very very very bad georgice. 276 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:23,239 Speaker 2: Her newborn baby, Josephine, was in critical condition. She had 277 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: a severe lung infection. The doctor wanted to prepare for 278 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: a blood transfusion. 279 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: He said, so, you know, just in case the worst 280 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: case scenario, we're going to need to get medical history, 281 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: blood types of parents, in cases some kind of rarity, 282 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: the genetic rarity or something like that. I was like, well, 283 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: I could only give you half. 284 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 2: But half wasn't good enough, especially considering Neil's history of cancer. 285 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: There was probably a complex medical history that we needed 286 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: to know about before we get this baby a blood transfusion. 287 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: She was two days old. 288 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 2: Instead of reaching out to Neil, she decided to call 289 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: one of his friends, the only friend of his she 290 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: knew how to reach. 291 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: Citizen. Here's my hospital number, and this is the doctor's name. 292 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: Can you just have him tell them bloodsite, any kind 293 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: of medical history, anything like that. 294 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: Neil's friend tried to get him to go or at 295 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 2: least to call the hospital at Is. 296 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: I know absolutely. I told him he needs to get 297 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: his hose down there right away. 298 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 2: But Neil never showed up. 299 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: No call has come through to researchers. So yeah, he's 300 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: not here and has not been here. 301 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 2: And then while Tina was lying in her hospital bed, 302 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 2: she got a text from Neil. 303 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: He sent me long abusive text messages. There, I wouldn't 304 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: lift a finger to help your child, even if she 305 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: did have my DNA, and not giving any information to 306 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: any doctors. Oh oh, okay, you are a psychopath. This 307 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: is a two day old baby, and all I asked 308 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: is for you to make a phone call, which anybody 309 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: would do for a stranger's baby, for a kitten. No 310 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: human being would refuse to make a phone call to potentially, say, 311 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: a baby. 312 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 2: But Neil refused. He was not interested in helping the baby. 313 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: He was more concerned with lashing out at Tina that 314 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 2: he called. 315 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: Me vile, tongued, foul woman and all sorts of horrible name. 316 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: It's aye, I just give them birth. I was in 317 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: hospital with needles stuck in me for the antibiotics and 318 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: things like that. But this is a really evil person. 319 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: She was beyond anger. 320 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: I was disgusted. I was disgusted. I was like, yeah, 321 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: wherever you are, you have no humanity. 322 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: Up until this moment, she'd planned to raise the baby 323 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,719 Speaker 2: completely on her own, without asking Neil for a single penny, 324 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: But after he showed his true colors, she decided, you 325 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: know what, I'm just going to send the Chelseapool Agency 326 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 2: how to keep for the next eighteen years. 327 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: Bye bye. 328 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 2: She figured the courts could handle Neil and she and 329 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: her family could move on. Luckily, her newborn daughter recovered 330 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: without needing a blood transfusion. 331 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: After a week of being in hospital, we were both 332 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: able to go home. 333 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 2: When she got home with Josephine or Fifi as she 334 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 2: calls her, their house was full of joy. Her son, 335 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 2: who was eight, became a doting big brother. 336 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: Right son adored her from day one and she's just 337 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: the sweetest baby. 338 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: Now. With two children to support, Tina had to return 339 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 2: to work just two weeks later. 340 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: I took the mandatory two weeks and went back to 341 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: work and I was back on a train in London. 342 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: I had a nanny and my friend helped me out 343 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: also with Hope and yeah to work. 344 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: One day, while she was on her way to work, 345 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 2: she decided to call the UK's child support agency to 346 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 2: get the paperwork started for child support. After they looked 347 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:29,479 Speaker 2: into Tina's claim, the agency contacted her with surprising news 348 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 2: about Neil. 349 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: It came back that firstly, it said that he only 350 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: had to pay five pounds a week because he was 351 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: in receipt. 352 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: Of benefits, meaning that Neil was on unemployment. But that 353 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 2: didn't add up to Tina. She met him at a 354 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: tech conference. He owned his own company. She'd met his coworkers. 355 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 2: She tried to explain this to the child support agency, 356 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: and I. 357 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: Said, well, he's not, and if he is, he shouldn't 358 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: be because he's got a business. I mean seen it. 359 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: I know he has a functioning business. 360 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 2: But the government didn't have records of his businesses or income. 361 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 2: And that wasn't all. 362 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. The interesting thing was that five pounds a week 363 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: it was split between my daughter and three other children. 364 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, so here's a new spin. 365 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: Neil had three other children, what about his story of 366 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: being infertile. Tina went into investigation mode, searching for business 367 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: and personal records of Neil Lawman. 368 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: I went all the way back to one from a 369 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: number of years ago. 370 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 2: In Neil's records, she found the name of a woman, 371 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 2: someone who changed her last name to Lawman. 372 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: Says, okay, that must be his ex wife. If she 373 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: is an it might be his current wife. 374 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 2: Maybe this was the woman he'd been married to in 375 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 2: the States. But Tina didn't really know what to believe anymore. 376 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: At this point, I realized that there's a lot of 377 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: lie So I go on Facebook, and Norman isn't a 378 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: common name. I'd put it up and there's her Facebook profile. 379 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: The first thing she noticed about her profile. 380 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: She was not in America, She's right here in the UK. 381 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 2: And the second. 382 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: Pictures of two girls who are undoubtedly his daughter's. 383 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 2: Looking at the photos of two little girls clearly related 384 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 2: to Neil made Tina's headspin. At the very least, she 385 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: knew she'd found the right person. 386 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: So I text her on Facebook and yeah, obviously I 387 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: didn't know what to expect. I didn't know how she 388 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: would react, if she would respond at all. I didn't 389 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: know if they were still married, and he'd like about that. 390 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: I I had no idea what to expect from this, 391 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: but yeah, what could I do? So I wrote her 392 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: message and she immediately responded. The first line of a 393 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: very long message said, I'm so so sorry that you'd 394 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: have been his victim. 395 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 2: When Tina applied for child support, she discovered a trove 396 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: of information about her daughter's biological father, Neil Lahman. First 397 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 2: that he was on unemployment and claimed he was unable 398 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 2: to make child support payments. He wasn't the high flying 399 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: tech guy he'd pretended to be. Second that he already 400 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 2: owed child support for three other children. The whole story 401 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 2: about him being infertile from prostate cancer was a complete lie, 402 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: an elaborate deception. From night one, when Tina began looking 403 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: into Neil's background, she found the name of his ex 404 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: wife for going to call her, Wendy. 405 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, we stopped talking and communicating, and his ex wife 406 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: had a story to tell. 407 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 2: She'd been with him for ten years, they had two 408 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 2: daughters together. Then one day Neil walked out, leaving her 409 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: with a significant amount of debt. 410 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 1: If she hadn't been bailed out by her parents, they 411 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: would have been on the streets or something like that. 412 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: And yeah, she seemed traumatized. 413 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 2: Neil had claimed that his wife cheated on him, that 414 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: she left him because he was infertile. He said she 415 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 2: was still back in America, But it turns out Wendy 416 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: very much lived in the UK. In fact, she lived 417 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: in this same neighborhood as Tina. Now Tina could safely 418 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 2: assume everything he'd ever told her was a lie. 419 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: So we now know that the whole America thing was 420 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: a lie. Cancer thing. Well, yeah, even if he had cancer, 421 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: they did not cause infertility. I'm like, wow, Okay, right 422 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: now we're down a rabbit hole. 423 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: Tina and Wendy agreed to meet for dinner to talk in. 424 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: Person, so we met up in London. We both liked sushi, 425 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: so we went to a very nice sushi restaurant right away. 426 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: Tina was struck by how familiar Wendy seemed. The two 427 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 2: women had the same energy, independent, confident, and outgoing. Wendy 428 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 2: had some important information for Tina, things she needed to know. 429 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 2: You see, after Neil left her, Wendy found out about 430 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 2: two more children, two sons he had father before her 431 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 2: daughters were born. Tina stared at Wendy, processing the reality 432 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 2: that her daughter was one of five, how many more 433 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 2: kids were out there, and what would that mean for 434 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: her daughter, for their daughters. It was a reality Wendy 435 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 2: had barely begun to confront herself. 436 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: She'd said that she had never told her daughters about 437 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: the older voice that she'd found out about. 438 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 2: Since Neil left Wendy, he'd barely spoken to their two 439 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: young daughters. 440 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: Nothing, absolutely nothing in all of these years, except an 441 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: annual birthday phone call to one of the children, where 442 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: you would lie about having said a gift that never arrived. 443 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 2: Tina and Wendy ordered another round of Martini's and talked 444 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 2: until the restaurant closed before they said goodbye. Tina got 445 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 2: an idea, let's. 446 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: Do something a little bit funny, so we took a 447 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: selfie we were both giving the bird, and we sent 448 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: him an email with just a picture and insightled the 449 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: other mother mother uhha. He went ballistic. 450 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 2: Neil started sending unhinged emails to Tina, to Wendy, even 451 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 2: to his ex father in law. 452 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: And then he'd also send a horrific email to my work, 453 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: very graphic slot shaping email addressed to the entire company, 454 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: including the CEO. 455 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 2: She was horrified this was too far. 456 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: So I reported this to the police and they did 457 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: take it quite seriously, and they said that it was 458 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: malicious tommunication. 459 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: But this wasn't the first time the cops had investigated Neil. 460 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: He was also involved in a very high profile fraud 461 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: case with the Fimbo wine scheme, and his ex girlfriend 462 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: actually ended up serving time for that, but he just 463 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: walked away. It's got free. 464 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 2: Allegedly, he'd been implicated in a multi million dollar fraud scheme, 465 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 2: and there was more. In total, he had eleven offenses 466 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 2: in five convictions, but he never served any prison time. 467 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,959 Speaker 1: Like Teplon, nothing sticks. 468 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: After Tina reported Neil to the police. She waited for 469 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: an update. She'd given them all the information she had 470 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: on him, and the officers said they'd call her when 471 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: they made an arrest. But months went by without word 472 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: when Tina called for an update. 473 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: Strangely, the so that we can't find him. He went 474 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: onder ground or something, and then after a year the 475 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: world was canceled, which I found odd. 476 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 2: Tina knew where he was. He wasn't hiding at all. 477 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: It's like, well, I could find him, why can't you. 478 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: This got Tina thinking. 479 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: It crossed my mind that he might have been an 480 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: informant and he got himself out of these things by 481 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: giving information to throw other people out of bus. 482 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 2: Again, that's just a theory. If the police weren't going 483 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 2: to give her answers or justice, she was going to 484 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: find them herself. So she reached out to Wendy and 485 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 2: together they came up with another idea. 486 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: We said, look, why don't we start a Facebook group 487 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: that has his name in it, So at least if 488 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: someone's looking to sort of date him or get into 489 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: business and they look him up on Facebook or come up, 490 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: maybe give them a rip black give them a warning. 491 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: So we set up this Facebook group called the Neil 492 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: Norman Victim support group. It was a little tongue in cheek, 493 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: but yeah. The interesting thing was that, you know, one 494 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: after another, people actually started to join and tell their stories. 495 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 2: As the group grew, Neil tried to get it taken down, 496 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: but Facebook declared it legitimate public interest. Through this page, 497 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 2: they discovered that Neil was allegedly running quite a few schemes. 498 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 2: At the same time, there were lots of posts about 499 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: his alleged shady business dealings. When it came to starting 500 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 2: new businesses, the posts suggested that Neil had an. 501 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: M He would befriend somebody, get into their lives, yet 502 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: understand their business, and then take over the business. He 503 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: would just make a copy of it and then take 504 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: all the customers and try and these businesses that were 505 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: other people's, and then suddenly he's an expert. 506 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: And then there were all the women he'd ghosted, women 507 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 2: he'd met online and started serious long distance relationships with. 508 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: There was a diplomat he'd had an online relationship with 509 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: for years. 510 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: When this woman finally booked a trip to meet him 511 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 2: in person, he said he would pick her up at 512 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: the airport, but when she landed, he wasn't there. She 513 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 2: tried to call him and she realized he blocked her. 514 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: She never heard from him again. 515 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: He's done that a lot. He's done that a lot. 516 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: It's been quite a few people, but he's had these 517 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: sort of online, ongoing relationships. 518 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: With These stories were bizarre. Was he doing it for 519 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 2: the money to resell the expensive hotel room bookings and 520 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 2: concert tickets or was it all just one big game 521 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: to him? Whatever the case, in every story, Neil didn't 522 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 2: stick her. Instead, his victims were left to deal with 523 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: the consequences of his actions, and some were never the same, 524 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: like one woman. 525 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: She was only eighteen at the time. I thought she 526 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: was going for a job interview, and then he said, oh, 527 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: there's a meetings going on in the office. You have 528 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: to meet me. There's the restaurant downstairs and bought her 529 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: a drake. 530 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 2: She wrote to Tina in her Facebook messages, she said 531 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 2: that she woke up in a hotel room disoriented. She 532 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 2: alleged that she'd been drugged and raped. 533 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: She didn't go to the police because she got ashamed. 534 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: Multiple women shared stories like this one. Their Facebook posts 535 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 2: alleged that Neil was not just a con artist, but 536 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 2: a violent man. 537 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: The fact that they'd have these let's identical stories, it 538 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: makes me think that, yeah, that's pattern. 539 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 2: As the group grew, Tina continued to wonder did anyone 540 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 2: out there have a story like hers? 541 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: And then another mother came along. 542 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 2: Her son was now an adult, but she knew Neil 543 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 2: was the. 544 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: Father, and it turned out that her son was only 545 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: a few weeks older than one of his other sons, 546 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: and they lived down the road from each other. 547 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: Their families knew each other. The boys never interacted, but 548 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: they easily could have. 549 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that's how close they were. 550 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 2: Through the group, Tina learned more about Neil's backstory and 551 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 2: it was revealing. 552 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: As far as I'm aware, he believed that his stepfather 553 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: was his real father until he was about fourteen, and 554 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: then the mother told him the truth that he was 555 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: rejected by his own father, but he was never. 556 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 2: In Neil's life like his mom. Neil asked, so had 557 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 2: his first child in his teens? 558 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: When Neil was about eighteen, that's when he got the 559 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: first mother pregnant. She was only fifteen at the time 560 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: the baby was born, and he ran. 561 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 2: Off after that. It seemed like this became a pattern 562 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: of his and this wasn't just about having unprotected sex 563 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 2: or fathering many kids. He was intentionally deceiving women into 564 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 2: believing he was infertile. These women who got pregnant would 565 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 2: be tied to Neil forever. 566 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: There's definitely an element of control. He can remote the 567 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 1: control the rest of your life. He can walk away 568 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: but still keep that control. 569 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 2: So how many children does Neil Lahman actually have? Well, 570 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,439 Speaker 2: four have been confirmed by DNA, but there are many 571 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 2: women who believe Neil is the father of their children. 572 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: From people coming forward and talking to us, there are 573 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: at least thirteen credible children that yeah, the mothers have 574 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: said that he's the father. 575 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 2: So the scheme clearly didn't end with Tina. The thirteen 576 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 2: mothers have become a kind of group. They've bonded. Some 577 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 2: of them are even friends. 578 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: Tina admits he does have good taste in women. This 579 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: is one deeming quality. And it's interesting because he doesn't 580 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:37,439 Speaker 1: tend to go for vulnerable women. He doesn't tend to 581 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 1: go for women who he can control financially, or who 582 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: don't have close families and things like that. It's almost 583 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: like a challenge to him that he will target women 584 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: who are strong who have careers, who are accomplished and 585 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 1: break them down. 586 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 2: But of course Nil's victims aren't just the women. Some 587 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: members of their Facebook group are Neil's now adult children. 588 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 2: Many of them haven't been confirmed by DNA, but one 589 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 2: of them tried to find Neil. He told Tina about 590 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 2: the experience he. 591 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: Told me about when he was a teenager. He'd come 592 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: to try and find him, and he'd waited outside his office. 593 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: He'd spoke to him on the phone, and he seemed 594 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: all right on the phone, but then when he went 595 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: to meet him, he waited at a coffee shop across 596 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: from where he worked, and then Neil came down and 597 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 1: saw him and just turned the other way and walked away. 598 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: A lot of these stories are very heartbreaking. 599 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 2: Hearing these stories, Tina felt even more certain that justice 600 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 2: needed to be served, and in talking to a police officer, 601 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 2: she heard something that piqued her interest. 602 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: This could be considered rape by deception. 603 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 2: Rape by deception is a situation in which a perpetrator 604 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 2: deceives someone in order to get sexual consent. The victim 605 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 2: wouldn't have consented if not for a crucial lie, like 606 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 2: one around the perpetrator's STD or a fertility status. Rape 607 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 2: by deception is in a specific charge. It's a way 608 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 2: of arguing and giving contact to a situation as rape 609 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 2: even if it falls outside the typical definition of rape 610 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 2: under the law, and it's been used before in cases 611 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 2: like Tina's. 612 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: There was another high profile case whereby someone who is 613 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: a rapist has taken to court because he'd claimed to 614 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: have had a aasectomy and got a woman pregnant, and 615 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 1: the jury had ruled him guilty. He was given a sentence. However, 616 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: they appealed it and the Supreme Court overruled the conviction. 617 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 2: For Tina, there's still a lot of work to be 618 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 2: done around this issue. In the meantime, she's had to 619 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 2: move forward with her life and focus on her kids. 620 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: My daughter is an absolute blessing gift. She's a ray 621 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: of sunshine. Yeah. The irony of this whole thing is 622 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: that she looks just like it. 623 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 2: Tina has learned to navigate some tough questions with care. 624 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 2: For instance, her daughter has asked, it's my good. 625 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: A nice person. I was like, your father, he's not 626 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: a nice person, but that's nothing to do with you, 627 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,800 Speaker 1: And she's like, okay, She's just very matter of fact, 628 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: and it's it's just funny how adaptable kids are. Friends 629 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: of hers very innocently asked, you know, so, what'd you dead? 630 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: And she's like, oh, I don't have one. I don't 631 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: have one. When they do Father's Day things at school, 632 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,479 Speaker 1: she makes things for her brother. 633 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 2: Tina and her two children have a strong little family unit. 634 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 2: But now that's not their entire family because Tina and 635 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 2: Wendy decided to tell their kids about each other. When 636 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,720 Speaker 2: Wendy told her daughters. 637 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: One of the things that the older daughter did say 638 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: was that she wanted to meet her sister. 639 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 2: Tina does worry about her daughter and how the situation 640 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 2: will impact her as she grows up. But at the 641 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 2: end of the. 642 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 1: Day, what hurts and what causes damage is the lies, 643 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: not the truth. I've seen it over and over again 644 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: that a lot of the children, the people, the victims, 645 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: have all been impacted so negatively by this trail of 646 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: lines upon lives upon lives upon life, and the best 647 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: way to combat that is by absolute truth. And my 648 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: daughters will have a source of truth about her situation. 649 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: She wasn't abandoned and it's not her fault. This is 650 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: what he does. This is a hymn problem. 651 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 2: We end all of our episodes with the same question, 652 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 2: why did you want to tell your story? Tina has 653 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 2: a really specific reason. She wants to warn anyone who's 654 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 2: just met Neil Lahman. 655 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: If I can help one person avoid that pain, avoid 656 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: going through this situation, or to get out before it's 657 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: something devastating, If I can help one of the mothers 658 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: out there to feel not alone, that overcomes all of 659 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: his darkness, all of his lies, I think that that 660 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: can only be a positive thing. 661 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal. 662 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 4: That evening, one of the strangest things happened. I looked 663 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 4: in the mirror and I said out loud that he's 664 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 4: not coming home. And I thought, my god, am I 665 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 4: being dramatic? Of course he's going to be home. And 666 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 4: I dismissed it. 667 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 668 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email 669 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 2: us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod 670 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One 671 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 2: way to show support is by subscribing to our show 672 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review 673 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 2: Betrayal five star reviews, Go A Long Way, A big 674 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 2: thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a 675 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 2: production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group 676 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 2: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. Show is executive produced by 677 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,800 Speaker 2: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me 678 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,720 Speaker 2: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced 679 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 2: by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlyn Golden. 680 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 2: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krinjek. Audio 681 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 2: editing and mixing by mattel Vecchio, Additional editing support from 682 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 2: Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library 683 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 2: provided by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, 684 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 685 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 2: your podcasts