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Right now, Soul is offering my audience thirty 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.240 percent off your entire order. So go to gitsold dot 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:13.319 com use the promo code toodcast. Don't forget that code. 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:18.160 That's getsold dot Com promo code toodcast for thirty percent off. 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.160 Hello there, Happy Monday, and welcome to another episode of 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.280 The Chuck Podcast. As you can see, I am not 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.600 in studio. I am traveling. I am in Miami. I'm 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:32.080 on a sort of a three city excursion here. I'll 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:34.480 be in Miami, I'll be in Charlotte. I got a 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:36.520 trip to New York all this week. I just came 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:38.959 from Austin. I want to actually give a report on that. 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.959 It was a participant at the Texas Tribune Festival where 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:46.080 I interviewed Wes Moore. Actually, a part of that conversation 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.960 I'm going to have in the feed later this week, 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:54.800 so you will get a full opportunity to hear that conversation. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:57.920 Let me just give a quick rundown of what to 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.280 expect on this episode. Long interviews with a gentleman by 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.160 the name of David Lesh. He is the subject of 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:07.520 an interesting book that those of you that know me 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:09.560 know I'd be a sucker for. It's called From Dodgers 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:15.480 to Damascus. It's about a one time major league pitching 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:20.000 prospect who got injured in the minors, ended up. I 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.079 think I think may have had a cup of coffee 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:23.600 and the majors. We'll talk about it. We have that 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.040 conversation and instead became an expert on the Middle East. 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:33.200 Hence Dodgers to Damascus. Actually found himself to be in 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.760 the room with Asad at times and really is an 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:40.800 expert in particular on Syria. So really that's a big 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.120 part of our conversation is sort of where's the Middle 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:47.240 East headed? What could the next three to five years 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.520 look like, and what could the next ten to twenty 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.800 years look like. It's a terrific conversation, and David Lesh 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:59.480 is a wonderful It was a wonderful interview to have, 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:02.720 and I do think you'll learn quite a bit. But yes, 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.720 the hook was the Dodgers in baseball. Right, you go 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:08.200 from there to the Middle East? Right? 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.120 What is there any better home. 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.760 Than the check podcast for something like that it's also Monday, 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:15.720 which means it's time Machine day, and boy, do I 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.600 have a doozy for you in the Toddcast time machine 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.440 or we'll go back. This is a fascinating week. Here's 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:28.400 what I'll just tell you. This week in history is 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.440 basically the greatest week. If you're a conspiracy theorist, this 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.040 is your going to be your favorite week in history. 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:41.000 I will just simply leave you with that tease. Of course, 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:42.720 I'll take some questions, and let's just say I have 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:47.240 a lot to say about college football the playoff, and 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:49.400 I've got a whole bunch of advice for the college 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.520 Football Playoff Committee in the ESPN executives who are going 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:56.120 to be making these decisions. Hopefully they will actually care 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.800 about what happened on the field rather than the machination 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.400 that they usually care about off the field. But there's 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:05.000 a few issues that I think that they have to 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.360 take up, and we'll see how serious they are about 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:11.720 trying to actually find the most worthy teams versus those 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.280 that they want to just feature in a television show. 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:17.880 But with that, let me get started with. 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:21.320 A quick little take on where we're at at the 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:26.080 moment in our current politics, and where we're at is 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.200 we have a president who is in the midst of 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.440 a feeding frenzy, and it is a feeding frenzy that 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:37.960 he can't control, and he is flailing. We've been in 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.200 these positions with him before and he always navigates his 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:41.760 way out of it. 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:43.480 But this time is different. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.400 As I said in our previous episode, we've got a 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.839 struggling economy, something that he's actually reacting to that's fascinating 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.280 and I want to get to that also in this episode. 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:54.800 But at the end of the day, his. 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.800 What he's doing and how he's react acting to this 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:06.679 Epstein situation is not exactly the way somebody who's innocent 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:10.599 would be reacting it is. There's so many aspects of 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.760 this that are strange when it comes to the way 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.280 he's treated this story. I mean, I'll go back to 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.479 something and I know, just set aside everything you know 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.800 about the story, but think about it in this way. 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.240 Donald Trump has the ability to be as his way 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.680 out of you know, he lies, you know, sort of 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.039 the way water flows out of a faucet, right, He's 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.240 very comfortable doing that, and he'll say whatever it takes 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:41.560 today to put off something that may be coming tomorrow, 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:43.640 and if he's got to say something else tomorrow, I'll 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:47.360 say something else tomorrow. The big head scratcher here on 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:51.080 this one is why he has chosen to be so 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.760 lenient on Glene Maxwell. And to me, this is the 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.240 part I want to focus on first. And then I'm 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.359 going to get to what is clearly an over action 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.680 to Marjorie Taylor Green and Thomas Massey, and I'll get 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:07.880 to that in a second, but I keep coming back 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.240 to this Gallaine Maxwell. And again when you get when 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.480 we get to my time the time Machine segment today, 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:19.800 you'll see where I'm going. But the reason there's an 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.480 assumption he's lying about something is because there's so many 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:24.880 politicians that have preceded him over the last fifty years 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:30.240 that have always lied to protect themselves first, and eventually 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.480 the truth would come out. It just sometimes would take 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.919 years and in some cases decades. What's a head scratcher 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:41.159 about the way he has treated Gallaine Maxwell is he 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:44.560 seems to fear her. And the question is why does 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:48.279 he fear her? She's in jail number one, number two. 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:55.679 She was convicted of essentially helping Epstein traffic underage women. 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.000 He could easily be wanting to throw the book at her, 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.880 and instead of putting her in a club fed, he 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.360 could have been putting her in solitary or making her 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:12.640 life even more miserable, rather than trying to be lenient. 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:18.720 And for whatever reason, he really wants her not to 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.280 say anything bad about him, even though if she did, 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.600 he could just simply say she's lying. She you know 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:32.040 that he had a story that was plausible enough that 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.760 would likely have kept everybody on his side. Right. The 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.360 story was Epstein was being a creep, He was recruiting. 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.680 He and Glaine were recruiting women from mar Alago. He 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.840 had had enough, he kicked him out. And of the relationship, 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.320 why is he keep pulling Glaine Maxwell back into his orbit? 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.760 And I'll just say this, there is something else in 0:07:54.800 --> 0:08:00.000 his life. There is something that she knows about, perhaps 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.920 as there's something she assisted him with. Maybe it's a 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:09.400 relationship he has or had with somebody. But there is 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:13.600 something that he has that hasn't come out that he 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:17.640 apparently is petrified of that she knows, because there really 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:19.960 seems to be no other explanation, because he could be 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.040 behaving the exact opposite way, and the fact that he 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:29.760 isn't is a head scratcher, and someday, maybe sooner, maybe 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.040 it'll take a while, we'll find out for sure. Maybe 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.480 she knows the origin story of his personal life, Maybe 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.320 she knows things that we don't know about the origin 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.600 story of his marriage. None of us know for sure. 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:50.840 His behavior is making it easier to go down conspiratorial lanes, 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.320 and it's almost like he is he is either purposely 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.840 doing this just to try to create more fog, which 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:03.480 is not totally out of character for him, or there's 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.880 something that Maxwell has that he just can't he just 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.000 can't risk, and so he's got to figure out. So 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.120 we'll see. Look, if he commutes her sentence and releases her, 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.839 that will be you know, not just one red flag, right, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.680 that would be a thousand red flags. But let's go 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:24.679 to the other part of this story, which is his 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:29.800 decision to punish Marjorie Taylor Green unindorse her. We already 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.520 know he's sicked his political machine on Thomas Massey trying 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:39.880 to primary him. There's an interesting pattern here Trump. I'm 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:44.400 trying to figure out who is Trump dumped or pulled 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.560 his endorsement from, or tried to defeat in his side 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.959 of the aisle who disagreed with him on an issue 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.760 of substance. Right, he went after those that voted to 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.800 impeach him after January sixth, right, the ten, and he 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:02.880 is he doesn't want to forget those. He's still got 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:07.960 vendettas against anybody that voted to convict him in the Senate. 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.320 Hence why I think there's still no endorsement for Bilcassidy, 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.080 and I don't think there will ever be an endorsement 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:20.000 for bil Cassidy in his Senate see but none of these. 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:24.880 He is angrier at Massy and Green for simply voting 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:30.360 for transparency on the Epstein files. Then he's as angry 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.480 at them as he was against the ten House Republicans 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:39.640 that voted to impeach him after January six It is, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:44.080 it is if this is this, and the irony is, 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.719 he's got plenty of ways that they're likely going to 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:51.320 kill this. Right, he's got the Senate, we'll see. Look, 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.360 I think if there's a hundred or more House Republicans 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.480 that vote with the Democrats on this, and I think 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:59.679 there will be that many. I do think that once 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.320 this vote goes on the record, there's a reason Mike 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.480 Johnson wanted to try to just release the files as 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.920 a unanimous consent because he doesn't want a recorded vote. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.959 There's a whole bunch of House Republicans that don't want 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.720 to have to vote against the president on this, but 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:19.560 they're more petrified of not voting to release files having 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:23.600 to do with a pedophile. So that's one. The second 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.360 way they could kill it is maybe in the Senate, 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:27.520 but if it gets one hundred or more House votes, 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.800 I think there are thirteen Senate votes. Now maybe leader's 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.360 Senate leadership just finds different ways never to bring it 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.040 to the floor. But somebody's going to bring this to 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.520 the floor. Somebody's going to be able to introduce it, 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:43.720 and then it's possible Trump could be to it. But 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:48.160 don't underestimate what the Justice Department just did with this 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:52.280 when Donald Trump railed ranted on social media demanding that 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:55.240 Pam Bondi started an investigation into Democrats in their relationship 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:59.160 with Epstein. Because here's what's likely to happen. If there's 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:03.880 an open and vestigation that the Justice Department is conducting 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.960 having to do with people in their associations with Epstein, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.200 then it's likely they go to a court and say hey, 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.240 we can't have these files released because it's currently a 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.960 part of an investigation. Right there's been a lot of conversation. 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.160 One of the knee jerk right wing talking points is, well, 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:22.640 the Biden folks could have released this, Well, they were 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.560 in the middle of an investigation, so they couldn't release 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:29.680 any files at the time. Now the investigation, in theory 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:34.320 is over. But if they're reopening an investigation, then suddenly 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:41.080 that likely will mean that will be used. This quote 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.560 open investigation will be used as saying, hey, we can't 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.560 release any of this material. It may matter in an 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.679 investigation and we don't want to have to put all 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:56.160 that out earlier. So it's there's a lot of paths 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:02.480 I think for this to have these files prevented from 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.439 being released to the public. There's a handful of ways. 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.200 You can see how it could be Senate leadership that 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.440 does it. It could be that President Trump vetos it, 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.320 or it could simply be the Justice Department goes to 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.600 court to say they can't because there's an open investigation. 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:23.679 Because Pam Bondi agreed to open investigation just to investigate 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.000 Democrats in their relationship with Epstein. 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.440 So the point is it's how much, it's. 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.800 How rattled he is on this. And when he's rattled, 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.640 this is when mistakes get made, and he's rattled at 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:38.880 a time when the other parts of his job aren't 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:43.040 going very well. Right, you have, it's pretty clear that 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:48.240 this economy is not working for people that don't have money. 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.480 He is realizing how badly the inflation issue is impacting, 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.520 particularly his voters, because he's doing something he said he'd 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:01.360 never do. He's getting rid of tariffs on food and coffee. Now, 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.439 what's interesting is how all of his surrogates went out 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:07.520 on the Sunday shows and they won't say that they're 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.480 getting rid of the tariffs, like they keep not trying 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.520 to use the word, or they keep saying, no, we're 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:15.880 lowering costs. Oh, you're getting rid of the tariffs. So 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.440 the terroifts raised costs. No, the teriffs didn't raise any costs. 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.120 But we're going to lower costs on food. There's this 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.240 weird they don't you know. Donald Trump can't ever admit 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.680 he's wrong. And the fact of the matter is these tariffs. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.520 Foreigners didn't pay these fees. You and I did. We've 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.360 been paying this if you've bought up banana recently, you 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.280 paid tariffs. So if he's going to sit here and 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.800 refund this to some people, and we'll see if they're 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:43.880 even able to do that, we're going to find out 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.440 soon enough. He's likely to lose at least some of 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:51.000 this tariff authority in court. He probably will try to 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.920 find another way in the law to try to to 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:56.440 try to implement some of these tariffs, and I think 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:58.680 there are a few other levers he can pull that 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.040 he'll be able to do this. But the reality is 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.560 is that, you know, despite everything he claimed that somehow 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.040 Americans weren't going to be paying this tax, Americans have 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.840 paid this tax. We have been getting more tax on food, 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:17.480 particularly fruits, vegetables, stuff that comes from overseas, plus coffee. 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.080 So the fact that they're dropping them shows you that 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:23.640 there's a bit of an acknowledgment that number one, prices 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:27.480 haven't calmed down, they've gone up, and number two, he's 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.400 been the reason why prices have gone up. 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.120 And then finally he's got to deal with this healthcare. 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:40.440 Issue and the fact that premiums are everybody now that 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:45.760 is on the Obamacare exchanges is seeing that the premiums 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.120 are about to go up if they were getting some 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.880 of these subsidies. It looks to me like there's going 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.600 to be an extension of these subsidies. Is it a year, 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.280 is it a year with a few extra strings attached. 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.880 I think all of those things are possible, But I 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.400 do want to highlight something Rick Scott said. Rick Scott 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.440 made it crystal clear in a Sunday Show interview earlier 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:13.920 that they were not going to repeal Obamacare and that 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.280 you know, there was not going They were not that 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.760 they that all insurance was going you know, they weren't 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.360 going to repeal the pre existing condition issue. Because the 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.840 only way to save money on this on on these 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.160 insurance exchanges in Obamacare is if you let insurance companies 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:36.840 essentially cherry pick who they get to cover and if 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.000 you don't have a pre existing condition, and they can 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.800 shift people with pre existing conditions and make them pay 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.920 higher rates but have healthy people pay super low rates. 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.880 That's you know that that's the system we had before, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:55.560 which didn't work for anybody. So the fact that Rick 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:57.360 Scott is saying we are not going to do that 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.880 because you cannot have insurance companies be able to to 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.720 not accept clients because of a pre existing condition. This 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.280 is why the system didn't work before. But the talking 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.320 point that is really bizarre to me, as they're saying, well, 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.760 they don't want to give this money to the insurance companies, 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:14.240 are going to give it to the American people. Well, 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.159 where do they think the American people is going to 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:20.520 spend this money? Can you get health insurance coverage without 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:25.800 paying an insurance company? I mean, I guess unless we're 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.720 going to be doing Medicare. 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.480 For all, is that the plan. 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.000 I don't think that's going to be the plan that 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:35.840 comes from the Republican side of the aisle. But if 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:40.680 you don't want to pay insurance companies, who else do 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:42.879 you pay? And if you would like to get rid 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.240 of the insurance companies, if you hate insurance companies, Bernie 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:50.600 Sanders would love to talk with you. He's got a plan, Republicans. 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.119 If you don't like insurance companies and you don't want 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.840 to pay insurance companies, He's got a terrific idea, just 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:01.440 do it straight with the government. So it's a strange 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.360 talking point that they're using. But the point is they 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.760 know this is not good politics for them. They know 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.200 that they have to deal with this, and I think 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.680 they're going to deal with this soon. But this Epstein thing, 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.080 I it's a When I was growing up, there was 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:21.040 a deodorant commercial for a deodorant called Sure. And this 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:24.920 is back when we had aerosol deodorance, and you know 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.840 that the aerosol deodorance was gross, you know, thankfully, you know, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:30.480 we had such a we were so worried about the 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.680 ozone layer back then. They finally got rid of those things, 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:34.679 which is there's a whole bunch of us that are 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:36.920 thankful for that. That was just gross. You walk into 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:41.120 a gem and you'd always smell that sort of aerosol deodorant. 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.080 It was disgusting. But the Sure, I always said, never 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:48.520 let them see a sweat was sort of the tagline 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.600 for Sure deodorant. Well, Donald Trump is letting all of 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:56.680 us see him sweat. This episode of The Chuck Podcast 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.520 is brought to you by Waldgrain. 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When 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.119 you go to wildgrain dot com slash podcast to start 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.720 your subscription, follow these instructions. Free croissants in every box, 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.000 thirty dollars off your first box when you go to 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.560 wildgrain dot com slash podcast. That's Wildgrain dot com slash podcast. 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:25.280 Or simply use the promo code podcast at checkout. Always 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.760 use the code, get the discount. I'm telling you it's excellent, excellent, bright. 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.959 He is clearly nervous about all things ups. It is 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.800 his personal obsession. He is trying to enact political and 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.720 vendettas having to do with it. He is making Marchie 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:48.879 Taylor Green a martyr. He is giving, he is helping 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.680 get her mainstreamed with independency. She is proudly calling herself, 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.880 you know, Mago without him, And that's. 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.040 The thing, like he is not. You know. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:03.119 I do think Thomas Massey, who was a sort of 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:08.080 America first Conservative before Donald Trump ever showed up. Margie 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:15.399 Taylor Green's beliefs clearly aligned closer with with a conservative 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.639 that's more in line with Massy than she is with Trump. 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.760 Trump is always as many a Trump advisor will quietly 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.119 let me know, he's always the least Mega person in 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.320 any room you walk into, wherever you go with Maga, 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:33.720 Trump's the least Maga. And he's become obsessed with the 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:37.119 deal making overseas he's become obsessed with all the money 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.600 he's making off of his off of his influence in government. 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:45.000 It's pretty much the opposite of what the true believers 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:49.480 in MAGA, those that did want to go after the elites, 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.600 who thought the elites were using government to enrich themselves, 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.760 And what's Donald Trump doing using government to enrich himself. 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:01.440 So look, I wrote it my substeck last week, and 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.440 I think that so far everything is playing out sort 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.080 of exactly out I sort of was laying it out, 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.600 and I think we're going to continue to see it. 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:16.280 His influence is waning. More Republicans discover every day that 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:20.720 he will never be on a ballot again, and just 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:22.720 keep an eye on. So he's already gone after Massi 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:26.600 and it's not really going that well. Thomas Massey's primary 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.520 is going is May nineteenth, and that's fairly early in 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:32.800 the primary season. There's a lot more though, you know, 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:34.560 we have a few states in March, a couple of 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:38.320 states in April, but most of the primaries are in June, 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.560 than a big chunk in August, and are remaining a 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:47.400 few in September. If Massi wins, And right now, I'd 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.879 rather be Massy than anybody else in that Republican primary. 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:54.160 He's had a hard time finding anybody. It's yet going 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:58.399 to be another reminder that the Emperor is losing his clothes. 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:00.000 I'm not going to say the Emperor has no clue 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:02.479 at the moment, but I think the Emperor is starting 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:07.320 to shed some clothes at the moment. And if he 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:10.120 is trying to punish somebody and he can't do it right, 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:13.119 he already lost one big one with Brian Kemp. And 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:15.840 remember why he turned on Brian Kemp. He turned on 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:20.760 Brian Camp over January sixth. In the election. He turned 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:24.080 on Brian Camp because Brian Kemp wouldn't do an illegal 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:31.080 act right, Brian Kemp wouldn't abide by his by Donald 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:34.520 Trump's wishes. So again this pattern. The only time Donald 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:37.760 Trump wants to punish a fellow Republican is when they 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:41.120 won't go along with something that just is bullshit. Right. 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:43.400 They won't go along on the Epstein files, they won't 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:45.800 go along on January sixth, they won't go along on 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.199 the election. And whether they're it's the only time he 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:52.600 turns on folks. He doesn't ever really turn on him 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:56.600 over policy. Disagreements. He only turns on him if he 0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:00.000 thinks other people are going to embarrass them him because 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:06.280 because they won't keep his lie up. And when Massey 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.000 wins that primary in May, it's yet going to be 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.640 another chink in the armor, and it's going to continue 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:16.240 to open the store and everybody is it's just getting 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:21.280 easier and easier to separate yourself from Donald Trump, and 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:23.720 there's going to be these different lease a little small. 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:26.159 The Epstein vote is going to be a step in 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:28.719 that direction, and you're going to see one hundred or 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:32.040 more House members do it. When the Supreme Court rules 0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:33.760 against his tariffs, you're going to see a whole bunch 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:39.879 of Republicans suddenly find their free trade spines again, and 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:45.960 they'll put out releases talking about following the Constitution. So 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:49.480 these little and then you're going to see, you know, 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:54.160 as people are upset about the costs rising costs, you're 0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:58.120 going to see more in Republicans look for ways to 0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:02.840 potentially separate themselves from the way House, but certainly to 0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:06.879 more directly appeal to voters, either in different ways to 0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:09.880 try to get rid of terrorists the lower costs, or 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:13.000 to question big tech and what they're doing to raise 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:15.239 our electric bills with all these data centers that are 0:25:15.240 --> 0:25:20.080 going up all over the place. So I do think 0:25:20.119 --> 0:25:25.520 we are witnessing, like I said before the beginning of 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:31.040 the lame ducification of Donald Trump. One other thing before 0:25:31.040 --> 0:25:32.399 we get to the interview that I want to get to. 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:36.040 So I spent Thursday and Friday in Austin, Texas the 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:37.360 Texas Tribune Festival. 0:25:38.119 --> 0:25:39.760 They have it every year. I've been to it a 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:40.320 few times. 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:43.639 They asked me to moderate a conversation with Maryland Governor 0:25:43.640 --> 0:25:45.280 Wes Moore. I think I told you I was doing 0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:49.040 that while I was there. I also it kind of 0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:53.480 unofficially became a bit of a cattle call for twenty 0:25:53.560 --> 0:25:56.480 twenty eight presidential candidates on the Democratic side of the aisle. 0:25:57.000 --> 0:26:02.040 Wes Moore was there, Pete Bootagige there, Tim Walls was there, 0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:07.639 Chris Murphy was there. So, you know, while I'm not 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:09.359 going to sit here and say it was, you had 0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:14.400 a whole bunch of people looking for twenty twenty eight candidates. 0:26:14.440 --> 0:26:16.200 I think they were there looking for people to fight 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:21.320 Donald Trump more than anything else. It was interesting the 0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:24.600 various conversations that were had looked. I would say, the 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:27.679 attendees at the Texas Tribune Festival were folks looking to 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:31.480 fight Trump. These were folks that are you know, fall 0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:33.919 on the left side of the aisle. They were there 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:38.879 looking for They're looking for hope, you know, looking for 0:26:38.920 --> 0:26:42.520 a stronger vision in the Democratic Party looking in some cases, 0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:44.919 I think many of them probably were a little further 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:48.639 to the left than probably the average rank and file 0:26:49.520 --> 0:26:54.240 member of the Democratic Party. And like I said the 0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:59.399 wes More conversation, you know, I was intrigued by the 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:04.360 sort of the tone he took. He knew this audience 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:07.600 was very liberal, and yet he didn't try to play 0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:11.240 to the audience. He really hugged the center lane in 0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:13.560 ways that I didn't fully expect him to hug it. 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:19.640 He made it clear that, you know, he didn't view 0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:23.080 himself as tied to the Democratic Party. He was a Democrat, 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:25.119 but that didn't mean he would abide by everything the 0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:28.440 Democratic Party was for. I thought that was an interesting distinction. 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:30.520 Always a little bit easier for governors to say that 0:27:30.840 --> 0:27:33.399 than any other officeholder, but he went out of his 0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:37.600 way to say that. I thought that was intriguing, and 0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:39.560 I do think it's you know, when he goes through. 0:27:39.560 --> 0:27:45.400 I mean, his military experience is you know, I think 0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:48.840 there's some you know, John Kerrey used to get criticized 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:51.399 by some who thought that he used his military he 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:55.800 went into the military for political purposes. I don't care 0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:58.280 if somebody went into the military for political purposes. That 0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:01.000 doesn't bother me. But some people think, oh, you're doing 0:28:01.040 --> 0:28:03.920 it to check a box. That isn't why Wes Moore 0:28:04.000 --> 0:28:06.359 joined the military, and that's what he got in. 0:28:07.640 --> 0:28:07.880 You know. 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:13.320 I I'm not going to sit here and question the 0:28:13.359 --> 0:28:17.240 motive of somebody that chooses to put themselves in a 0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:20.800 position where they could put themselves in harms way because 0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:23.200 they think it'll look good on a political resume. I'm 0:28:23.200 --> 0:28:26.000 not saying some haven't thought about it that in those terms. 0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:28.800 But if you're willing to do that, then I've got 0:28:28.800 --> 0:28:34.239 no problem with that. I appreciate that you're trying to 0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:42.440 have a variety of experiences in order to in order 0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:44.320 to be a better leader if you do get a 0:28:44.360 --> 0:28:48.320 shot at being a small, de democratic leader of this country. 0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:51.440 So I don't think it's a huge deal, but I 0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:53.720 do think his military experience a little bit different. Right 0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:58.040 when you join at seventeen and he was already had 0:28:58.080 --> 0:29:01.239 gone to military school. So I just think he I 0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:04.840 don't think he's a conventional liberal Democrat, is my point. 0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:09.280 And I didn't fully appreciate that until you had, until 0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:13.000 you have this longer conversation, I was intrigued by him. 0:29:13.200 --> 0:29:15.560 I thought it was I thought some of his answers, 0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:22.080 his defensive capitalism was quite interesting. Again, later this week, 0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:24.040 we're going to drop this into the feed, So if 0:29:24.080 --> 0:29:26.000 you want to listen to this conversation, you can listen 0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:28.400 to the whole conversation. I actually used it also this 0:29:28.440 --> 0:29:30.440 week in my new sphere, so those of you that 0:29:31.520 --> 0:29:34.520 are a member of Newsphere, you can check out Sunday 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.560 Night with Chuck Codd. That was a big chunk of 0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:41.320 that interview appeared there as well. But there was one 0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:43.040 other thing I wanted to bring up because both he 0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:47.120 and Tim Walls. I saw Tim Wall's conversation. He was 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:50.760 in conversation with Jennifer Paul Mary, a longtime Democratic operative, 0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:58.040 and I asked both. Jen asked Tim Walls a question 0:29:58.080 --> 0:30:00.719 about sort of what does Trump do well? And I 0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:02.880 asked a question, what does Trump get right? You know? 0:30:04.360 --> 0:30:07.240 To Wes Moore, some version of it and they both 0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:11.600 said the same thing. You know, he acts, it's moved, 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:14.080 he moves quickly. I think Tim Wall said, he moves 0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:17.760 quickly and he goes. You know one thing Trump does well, 0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:22.160 what Wes Moore said, is that there's always action. Right. 0:30:22.160 --> 0:30:24.600 He doesn't wait around for a commission. He doesn't have 0:30:24.640 --> 0:30:29.600 a committee to study something before trying to implement it. 0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:31.680 A lot of times he tries to implement things even 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:34.360 when he doesn't have the authority to do it. But 0:30:34.480 --> 0:30:40.360 he's always but the voter sees him trying to do something, 0:30:41.880 --> 0:30:45.680 sees him trying to fulfill a promise that he made, 0:30:45.760 --> 0:30:49.000 even if it's ends up being kind of an empty fulfillment, 0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:53.160 he still attempts to do it. It tells me that 0:30:53.240 --> 0:30:56.440 the next Democratic president is if there's one thing they're 0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:59.920 going to attempt to emulate from Trump, You're going to 0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:02.360 see a lot more signing ceremonies, a lot more public 0:31:02.360 --> 0:31:06.880 signing ceremonies, a lot more executive orders, a lot more 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:14.200 attempts at doing rather than studying, and maybe even trying 0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:18.920 to do too much rather than looking back like I 0:31:18.960 --> 0:31:22.320 think many in the Obama years do. And wonder was 0:31:22.320 --> 0:31:27.040 that was the two years that he had full where 0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:29.160 he had fifty nine to sixty Senate seats. He had 0:31:29.200 --> 0:31:31.040 sixty for a while, then it was back to fifty nine. 0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:35.600 A fairly large House majority was that did he was 0:31:36.240 --> 0:31:39.480 getting healthcare? Was great? Should he have just kept pushing 0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:43.040 the envelope, tried to get cap and trade, just pushed, pushed, pushed, 0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:46.440 and because no matter what there was going to be, 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:48.640 they were going to lose the mid terms, no matter what. 0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:51.000 So you might as well have done as much as 0:31:51.000 --> 0:31:54.440 you can. Because what's the lesson Donald Trump has taken? 0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:59.400 Do as much as you can while you can, because 0:31:59.400 --> 0:32:01.080 you're really there or know how long you're going to 0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:04.520 be there. And I think the fact that both Wesmore 0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:07.480 and Tim Walls that that's one of the lessons those 0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:10.360 that's the initial and when they're asked what does Trump 0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:13.640 do well or what does Trump get right? That both 0:32:13.720 --> 0:32:15.520 of them and I don't think they talk to each 0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:18.480 other about this. I don't think either. I don't think 0:32:18.600 --> 0:32:20.960 More the Wall said at first. I don't think More 0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:23.760 heard Tim Walls say this. It didn't really go viral 0:32:23.800 --> 0:32:27.560 or anything like that. So I don't think he's alone. 0:32:27.560 --> 0:32:29.320 And I've heard this from quite a few other Democrats 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:32.880 that that they get frustrated. They think when you know, well, 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:36.120 he's he's signing these executors, they're kind of meaningless. Yeah, 0:32:36.240 --> 0:32:38.720 ninety percent of them are meaningless. But the message to 0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:41.920 the voters is he's trying that he's making an effort, 0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:46.440 that he's doing something. Nobody ever wonders whether you know. 0:32:47.960 --> 0:32:53.000 I think it's why Trump's erratic health isn't hurting him 0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:55.520 quite yet as much as it hurt Biden, because Biden 0:32:55.560 --> 0:32:58.040 didn't look like he was doing as much. So then 0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.000 you wondered, why is an age doing as much? So 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:05.240 it is it is. It was just intriguing that that 0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:06.760 was singled out. 0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:08.320 But again I go back. 0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:10.880 My big takeaway from Wes Moore is that he is 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:15.280 he is definitely not going to be running as a 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:18.880 mainstream liberal Democrat. I think he is going to be 0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:22.080 running as something a bit different. And those that are 0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:24.920 thinking this is the second coming of Obama, I would say, 0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:26.800 I think it's more likely the second coming of Bill 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:31.120 Clinton than it is Barack Obama. For what it's worth. 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:33.200 All right with that, let me sneak in a break 0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:36.960 and when we come back, my conversation with former Major 0:33:37.040 --> 0:33:41.080 League prospect for the Los Angeles Dodgers. David Lesh, who 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:44.160 ended up a life as an expert on the Middle East, 0:33:44.960 --> 0:33:47.360 hanging out with the assads every once in a while 0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:50.760 in Syria. So with that, let's sneak in the break 0:33:50.760 --> 0:33:56.320 and when we come back, David Lesh, there's a reason 0:33:56.400 --> 0:33:59.360 results matter more than promises, just like there's a reason. 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:02.920 Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. For 0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:06.040 the last thirty five years, they've recovered twenty five billion 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:09.160 dollars for more than half a million clients. It includes 0:34:09.200 --> 0:34:13.000 cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing, just hoping 0:34:13.040 --> 0:34:15.600 to get away with paying as little as possible. Morgan 0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:18.400 and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact, 0:34:18.480 --> 0:34:21.600 in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars, 0:34:22.080 --> 0:34:25.120 which was a staggering forty times the amount that the 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:28.440 insurance company originally offered. That original offer six hundred and 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:31.479 fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred and fifty 0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:33.680 thousand dollars. So with more than one thousand lawyers across 0:34:33.719 --> 0:34:36.160 the country, they know how to deliver for everyday people. 0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:38.960 If you're injured, you need a lawyer, You need somebody 0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:41.520 to get your back. Check out for the People dot Com, 0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:46.720 Slash podcast or Dow Pound Law Pound five to nine 0:34:46.920 --> 0:34:50.440 Law on your cell phone. And remember all law firms 0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:52.320 are not the same, So check out Morgan and Morgan. 0:34:52.400 --> 0:34:59.319 Their fee is free unless they win. Well here at 0:34:59.320 --> 0:35:03.080 the check podcast. When you get a book proposal to 0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:07.000 interview somebody, and the book is called Dodgers to Damascus, 0:35:08.160 --> 0:35:12.160 it's almost as if the publication was trying to identify 0:35:12.560 --> 0:35:16.759 me as the target's interview e as a Dodger fan, 0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:23.920 growing up as a political junkie. Now policy junkie a story, 0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:25.719 and this is a biography. The book itself as a 0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:29.759 biography of my guest today, David Lesh, who is who 0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:33.480 began his studies of the Middle East by being a 0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:37.200 prospect for the Los Angeles Dodgers. Well let him in 0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:40.960 some ways, that's exactly what it was, the dream of baseball. 0:35:41.480 --> 0:35:46.360 Like a lot of aspiring baseball players, injuries can sometimes 0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:50.160 get in the way of a career, and you use 0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:53.880 another part of your body, your brain, to pursue another passion, 0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:58.480 which is what David Lesh did. And it's a fascinating 0:35:59.360 --> 0:36:02.280 story and the book is fascinating but sort of lessons 0:36:02.280 --> 0:36:05.160 from baseball to help resolve the Middle East crisis or 0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:09.320 crises plural. So David Lesh joins me now the subject 0:36:09.360 --> 0:36:12.080 of the book. David, welcome to the podcast. It's nice 0:36:12.080 --> 0:36:12.480 to meet you. 0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:14.600 Nice to meet you, too supposed to be. I'm glad 0:36:14.600 --> 0:36:16.920 the book found its way across your desk. That's great. 0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:20.560 So let me ask this. What's it like? 0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:23.800 I mean, it is this. You didn't write the book, 0:36:23.880 --> 0:36:30.280 you participated. It is an authorized biography. That's it's almost. 0:36:29.960 --> 0:36:31.520 Like you're you you you. 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:33.840 I always say it's sort of it's going to be awkward, 0:36:33.840 --> 0:36:36.480 but it's like you are willing to expose yourself to 0:36:36.520 --> 0:36:39.759 the to the world. And I think when you're when 0:36:39.800 --> 0:36:43.000 somebody writes a biography of somebody that's still alive, right, 0:36:43.040 --> 0:36:46.359 You're You're, that's a lot of you got to You're 0:36:46.400 --> 0:36:49.600 You're always being asked to give more and more. What 0:36:49.640 --> 0:36:52.480 did it feel like to read about yourself through a 0:36:52.520 --> 0:36:53.160 third person? 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:58.000 It was weird. You definitely are identifying the awkwardness of 0:36:58.040 --> 0:37:01.000 it for me. If I Catherine Cook, who did such 0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:04.080 a wonderful job as an accomplished author, who wrote this 0:37:04.120 --> 0:37:06.880 book and She called me one time. She said, David, 0:37:07.160 --> 0:37:09.919 I'm having trouble writing the last chapter. And I said 0:37:09.960 --> 0:37:12.640 why and she said, because you're still alive. 0:37:13.040 --> 0:37:16.959 You know, that's would be my challenge as a writer 0:37:17.000 --> 0:37:19.719 if I had this assignment. You know, you're you. 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:21.799 You want to make a. 0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:25.920 Conclusion about somebody's life or legacy, and if they're still alive, 0:37:27.160 --> 0:37:29.160 how do you word it in a way that doesn't 0:37:29.160 --> 0:37:32.319 make them either feel like you're doing their obituary or 0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:33.640 you're taking a shot at them. 0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:35.680 Well, that my wife is over now, you know, I 0:37:35.719 --> 0:37:38.880 can't do anything else. But I'm still active and I 0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:40.520 have a lot to look forward to, I hope. But 0:37:40.840 --> 0:37:43.040 she did a good job. In fact, the last chapter 0:37:43.320 --> 0:37:47.759 is entitled Stay Tuned, which hopefully is a metaphor for 0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:50.880 better and bigger things that I can accomplish in my 0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:52.880 life as we go forward. In all in all ways, 0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:56.360 but it was a very weird experience, and I was 0:37:56.400 --> 0:38:00.600 compelled to be introspective in a way that you know, 0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:02.680 at this age of my life, I didn't, you know, 0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:06.640 figure i'd be doing. And it forced me to look 0:38:06.680 --> 0:38:08.759 at a lot of situations throughout my life. It was 0:38:08.800 --> 0:38:12.520 interesting to see because she interviewed like fifty sixty you know, 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:17.520 colleagues and friends, family acquaintances, and it was interesting to 0:38:17.560 --> 0:38:20.040 see what they thought of me, and which was much 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:23.400 better than that I had anticipated, by the way. But 0:38:24.320 --> 0:38:27.919 so it was in a writing experience. It was emotional 0:38:28.000 --> 0:38:30.640 at times because I had to revisit some periods and 0:38:30.800 --> 0:38:33.520 events in my life that you know, had a great 0:38:33.560 --> 0:38:37.520 deal of impact in positive and negative ways. But it 0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:40.759 was really I thought, you know, well done by Catherine. 0:38:40.760 --> 0:38:44.080 A very positive experience overall. 0:38:44.760 --> 0:38:49.280 So let's talk about what what what's drawn you to become, 0:38:49.719 --> 0:38:53.279 you know, the essentially to do all the scholarship that 0:38:53.320 --> 0:38:56.160 it takes to become a Middle East expert. And I 0:38:56.239 --> 0:38:59.400 always I put experts in quotes because an expert of 0:38:59.400 --> 0:39:02.880 what these days it's almost in some ways you're an anthropologist, right, 0:39:02.960 --> 0:39:07.239 You're a civilization you're trying to understand and what it 0:39:07.280 --> 0:39:09.719 really is is, you know, I have my own opinions 0:39:09.719 --> 0:39:14.280 about how we just don't people don't understand the history 0:39:14.280 --> 0:39:17.120 of the Middle East before nineteen forty eight, Right, that's 0:39:17.160 --> 0:39:20.920 my largest frustration in sort of the coverage of stuff. 0:39:20.920 --> 0:39:24.200 But what drew you to it? Why did you want 0:39:24.239 --> 0:39:25.759 to make this your area of expertise. 0:39:26.040 --> 0:39:27.839 Well, I struck out of everything else, chuck. 0:39:27.920 --> 0:39:30.960 So, yeah, there you go. There's the dad pun striking 0:39:31.000 --> 0:39:31.400 out there. 0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:35.960 It is no I think as in most cases, and 0:39:36.080 --> 0:39:38.360 what I hope I'm doing to some of my students 0:39:38.360 --> 0:39:40.759 as a professor now is I had a couple of 0:39:40.760 --> 0:39:44.120 wonderful professors after I, you know, flamed out at baseball 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:46.960 with the injury, and I went back to undergrad school 0:39:47.040 --> 0:39:49.960 and I had two wonderful, wonderful professors. It was just 0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:53.600 pure luck. I was always extendent International relations. Lou Cantori 0:39:53.680 --> 0:39:55.600 and Robert Freeman were the two. They were well known 0:39:55.600 --> 0:39:57.520 in the field, and they just turned me on to 0:39:57.640 --> 0:40:00.560 a subject that at that time, you know, the seventies 0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:04.880 early eighties, as you well know, it was not covered 0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:09.680 very well or objectively. And so I did the more 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:12.360 I started studying it, and more importantly, when I started 0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:15.719 traveling there, I just became enamored with that history, with 0:40:15.840 --> 0:40:21.560 the people and why things you know, went off the track, 0:40:21.680 --> 0:40:23.880 so to speak, so much in so many areas in 0:40:23.920 --> 0:40:26.520 the Middle East. I wanted to understand that and hopefully 0:40:26.680 --> 0:40:29.200 later on, as I hope I've done in my books 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:31.760 to help explain it to an audience. 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:35.600 So I have a bit of a snarky sort of 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:38.359 take on when it comes to sort of our what 0:40:38.440 --> 0:40:40.680 I think is our ignorance about the Middle East, which 0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:44.319 is and it comes from being a Jewish American, and 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:48.160 I'm not a very religious person, but I get I've 0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:50.560 always felt I've never felt as if that part of 0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:53.720 my identity mattered until a whole bunch of other people 0:40:53.800 --> 0:40:56.239 want to tell me it's supposed to matter, and I 0:40:56.239 --> 0:40:57.920 get sort of if I get my back up, I 0:40:58.000 --> 0:41:00.759 joke anytime I hear the word populace, whether it's left 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:02.920 wing populism or right wing populism, I know the first 0:41:02.960 --> 0:41:08.080 thing they're doing is coming for the Jews. But you know, 0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:13.840 I realized in sort of the in the this was 0:41:14.040 --> 0:41:18.080 began before October seventh, but certainly post October seventh, the 0:41:18.160 --> 0:41:22.880 amount of people that didn't understand the Middle East pre 0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:27.640 nineteen forty eight, and that really the biggest problem we 0:41:27.760 --> 0:41:32.160 had generationally was And then it realized, well. 0:41:32.080 --> 0:41:35.239 How are we taught World War One and World War Two? 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:39.200 And I think about World War One and we're I'm 0:41:39.239 --> 0:41:41.440 guessing you had a similar grade school experience that I did. 0:41:41.640 --> 0:41:43.400 You're a little bit older than me. But we basically 0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:47.759 I think, you know, probably that fairly consistent education there, 0:41:48.520 --> 0:41:50.959 which was we're taught World War One through the prism 0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:54.080 of World War Two. You know, we screwed Germany too much, 0:41:54.200 --> 0:41:56.719 made him angry and it started the Second War. We 0:41:56.800 --> 0:41:59.120 never talked about the other part of World War One, 0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:01.920 which was the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the 0:42:01.960 --> 0:42:04.439 fact that in some ways, and a couple as I joke, 0:42:04.520 --> 0:42:07.080 a couple of drunk Frenchmen and Brits decided to draw 0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:09.919 straight lines and say you get a country you don't 0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:10.759 you do? 0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:11.200 You know? 0:42:11.760 --> 0:42:15.279 And all of a sudden it's the United States. It's 0:42:15.360 --> 0:42:19.080 left to deal with this mess. Again I'm being it's 0:42:19.120 --> 0:42:21.839 a bit of a snark, but it's it does get 0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:24.040 at what I think is the root issue of our 0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:27.359 misunderstanding of a lot of the Middle East issues, which 0:42:27.360 --> 0:42:30.080 is not understanding how it all broke apart after the 0:42:30.080 --> 0:42:30.920 Ottoman Empire. 0:42:31.160 --> 0:42:35.960 Yeah, exactly. My pet peeve is that Americans in general, Westerners, 0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:39.600 especially Americans, have had this telescopic view toward the Middle East, 0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:42.919 and we need a microscopic view. And the telescopic view 0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:46.320 is quite prejudiced and biased in many different directions. 0:42:46.320 --> 0:42:49.960 Incomplete, absolutely and complete is the best description I think. 0:42:50.040 --> 0:42:53.560 Yeah, and you need that microscopic view. But in today's 0:42:53.840 --> 0:42:56.279 especially as time has gone on, in today's media, as 0:42:56.320 --> 0:42:58.880 you will know, and sound bites and social media and 0:42:58.920 --> 0:43:02.760 so forth pull on information in small bites and small packets, 0:43:02.840 --> 0:43:05.640 and even foreign leaders, you know, they want that one 0:43:05.680 --> 0:43:08.480 page brief less than one page brief instead of reading 0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:12.520 a whole executive summary, even of a particular problem, especially 0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:14.720 a country like the United States, which has so many 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:20.080 issues all over the world and responsibilities and objectives. For 0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:22.960 a president to focus on one single thing and really 0:43:23.040 --> 0:43:25.560 understand it is very, very unusual unless they have a 0:43:25.560 --> 0:43:28.400 background in it. But yeah, I mean the Ottoman Empire 0:43:28.400 --> 0:43:32.080 and you talk about the two drunk frenchmen that Jordan 0:43:32.280 --> 0:43:35.440 was always said a joke was that Winston Churchill had 0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:38.399 a hiccup and drew that part of Jordan that sticks out. 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:41.200 But the reality is it was to connect pipelines from 0:43:41.200 --> 0:43:44.200 the Version Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea. So there was 0:43:44.239 --> 0:43:48.360 all strategic reasons behind all of this. And one of 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:50.480 the things people understand, I think the British and the 0:43:50.480 --> 0:43:53.279 French obviously allied on the Tient powers in World War One, 0:43:53.320 --> 0:43:55.520 but they always saw each other as potential enemies. 0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:58.279 After the war, they were competing for reasons in the 0:43:58.280 --> 0:43:59.560 Middle least, right exactly. 0:43:59.640 --> 0:44:02.680 And so you know, Syke's Pico and all these infamous 0:44:02.920 --> 0:44:06.160 secret wartime agreements were always you know, from each side 0:44:06.280 --> 0:44:08.759 aimed at the other for what they hope would be 0:44:08.840 --> 0:44:12.400 victory and defeating the central Powers, including the Ottoman Empire. 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:14.480 But you're right, I mean, the fall of the Ottoman 0:44:14.520 --> 0:44:18.000 Empire is sort of glossed over, and it's the Eurocentric 0:44:18.040 --> 0:44:22.480 orientalist view of World War One and what happened with 0:44:22.600 --> 0:44:24.960 the artificial divisions in the Middle East. 0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:26.360 Well, you know, it's interesting. 0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:29.759 This is also this week is the anniversary of Panamanian independence, 0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:33.880 and essentially Panamanian independence came because Teddy Roosevelt cut a 0:44:33.920 --> 0:44:37.080 deal because he wanted to a strip of land to 0:44:37.080 --> 0:44:41.359 build the Panama Canal. So they basically created Panamanian independence, right, 0:44:41.800 --> 0:44:44.480 And it reminds me of sort of how the Europeans 0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:46.719 dealt with the Middle East. It's the same way the 0:44:46.840 --> 0:44:48.920 United States has dealt with Latin America essentially for the 0:44:49.000 --> 0:44:52.160 last hundred years, which is what can you do in 0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:54.960 the region for us? Not what can we do for 0:44:55.040 --> 0:44:56.560 you in the region? Is that. 0:44:58.080 --> 0:44:58.920 Simplistic view? 0:44:58.960 --> 0:45:01.360 But is that how you you would sort of describe 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:05.200 sort of the Eurocentric relationship with the Middle East over 0:45:05.200 --> 0:45:06.080 the last hundred years. 0:45:06.160 --> 0:45:07.520 Yeah, I thought you were going to say, not the 0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:10.320 one hundredth year, but the anniversary of the Balfour Declaration. 0:45:10.320 --> 0:45:12.960 As we were to that company too agreements. 0:45:13.080 --> 0:45:16.719 But yeah, absolutely, I mean, all countries act in their 0:45:16.760 --> 0:45:21.280 own national interests and if they have leverage in terms 0:45:21.280 --> 0:45:24.120 of those interests, they're going to exercise that leverage. And 0:45:24.160 --> 0:45:27.520 what Israel has done, you know, ever since it came 0:45:27.520 --> 0:45:30.080 into being in nineteen forty eight, And what all countries do, 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:34.280 the British, the French, the Americans, the Russians, and without 0:45:34.280 --> 0:45:37.759 taking into consideration or very much consideration, the wants and 0:45:37.840 --> 0:45:41.319 needs of the local populations other than that which will 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:45.040 feed their own strategic interests. And so's that's very, very true. 0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:49.319 And it's you know, the countries in the Middle East 0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:52.479 they lack in many ways of national identity, They lack 0:45:52.600 --> 0:45:55.480 the rulers, lack legitimacy. A lot of that goes all 0:45:55.480 --> 0:45:58.719 the way back to the artificiality of the heartland of 0:45:58.719 --> 0:45:59.239 the Middle East. 0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:02.040 We just created archies right out of these tribal leaders. 0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:06.520 Right monarchies and so called Arab republican regimes that act 0:46:06.560 --> 0:46:08.600 like monarchies because they want to be. You know, the 0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:12.600 Mcadafi and Nassir and Lbark and Osad, they all wanted 0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:15.040 to be. They all wanted to be and were in 0:46:15.080 --> 0:46:17.839 some cases succeeded by their sons, so they turned out 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:22.000 to be monarchies in effect. 0:46:22.920 --> 0:46:27.440 So who did you have? Which aside did you have 0:46:27.719 --> 0:46:30.239 did you start to strike up her I don't want 0:46:30.239 --> 0:46:33.040 to say relationship, but sort of a conversation with. 0:46:33.480 --> 0:46:36.120 Yeah, that was Bisharl Ossad, who came to power in 0:46:36.160 --> 0:46:40.600 two thousand after his father died. And you know, I'd 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:43.160 been going to Syria quite some time, and you know, 0:46:43.320 --> 0:46:45.759 I like to consider myself a Middle Eat specialists in 0:46:45.760 --> 0:46:49.920 mediaprent areas, but Syria's is definitely my number one specialty. 0:46:49.920 --> 0:46:52.120 And I traveled the over thirty thirty five times over 0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:55.280 the years, and so I knew I had a pretty 0:46:55.280 --> 0:46:57.920 good network in Syria, particularly in mine academics. And when 0:46:57.920 --> 0:47:01.640 Osade came to power in two thousand, he brought academics 0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:04.399 into the government, which some thought, as you know, hope 0:47:04.440 --> 0:47:05.319 for the future, other things. 0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:06.760 I was just gonna say, there was a brief period 0:47:06.800 --> 0:47:09.320 where they thought maybe he'll be a modernizer, maybe he'll 0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:12.200 be king using right, yeah. 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:15.480 Exactly, yeah, and or a faisal in Saudi Arabi even 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:18.040 you know, back in the seventies and and you know 0:47:18.080 --> 0:47:20.680 he was young. He liked Western music, he liked Western 0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:23.799 you know, technological toys. Uh, you know, he was a 0:47:23.800 --> 0:47:24.600 computer nerd. 0:47:25.120 --> 0:47:27.960 And everyone was educated in London, right educated. 0:47:27.960 --> 0:47:30.960 He received uh you know, he was trying to get 0:47:30.960 --> 0:47:34.120 his what is essentially his boor certification ophthalmology in London. 0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:36.279 But people have to remember he only spent you know, 0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:39.120 two years in London. And even though he liked the 0:47:39.120 --> 0:47:42.560 Electric Light Orchestra and Phil Collins and the Beatles, you know, 0:47:42.680 --> 0:47:46.400 his upbringing was molded by, you know, being a child 0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:48.960 of the Arab Israeli conflict, a child of the super 0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:51.000 power conflict when Syria was on the side of the 0:47:51.000 --> 0:47:54.160 Soviet Union in Russia. And mostly most importantly a child 0:47:54.160 --> 0:47:57.320 of Havazalasat, his father, who had a very particular brand 0:47:57.320 --> 0:48:00.400 of authoritarianism in Syria. So those are the things that 0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:04.600 shaped his worldview, and I was very interested in, you know, 0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:08.640 his transition from enthalmologists to ruler. And so I contacted 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:10.640 one of these academics he brought in who happened to 0:48:10.640 --> 0:48:12.719 be the good friend of mine who was in the 0:48:12.760 --> 0:48:15.120 Minister of Higher Education, and said, hey, you know, I 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:17.279 like to write a book on him. Can I meet 0:48:17.280 --> 0:48:19.719 with Mischard Alasad? And that's how it all started, and 0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:21.680 a couple of years later, in two thousand and four, 0:48:21.760 --> 0:48:22.520 came into being. 0:48:22.920 --> 0:48:26.440 He's done this with a few Americans over the years, 0:48:26.520 --> 0:48:29.600 like he seems to constantly. You know, there's there's been 0:48:29.640 --> 0:48:31.800 a handful of Americans that I feel like I've had 0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:36.120 that he does want to reach out to the Western side. 0:48:36.520 --> 0:48:40.200 Yeah, yeah, he did, and so timing, Yeah, when you 0:48:40.239 --> 0:48:43.359 reached out to me in two thousand and four through 0:48:43.400 --> 0:48:45.920 his ambassador in the United States, he was also a 0:48:45.960 --> 0:48:49.840 friend of mine. It was not a coincidence at that 0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:52.200 time because it was right after the US led invasion 0:48:52.719 --> 0:48:56.600 of Iraq and Syria was slowly turning into a target, 0:48:56.680 --> 0:48:59.640 not slowly, actually quickly turning into a target, whereas before 0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:03.239 the invasion. Right after nine to eleven, American officials were 0:49:03.239 --> 0:49:06.480 saying Syria was helping to save lies with intelligence cooperation 0:49:06.600 --> 0:49:10.440 on El Kaeda. After two thousand and three, now Syria 0:49:10.600 --> 0:49:14.319 was costing American lives because they were allowing Jahadas to 0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:17.480 go through their country and into Iraq, which caused problems 0:49:17.920 --> 0:49:20.839 for the US and its allies. And so you know, 0:49:20.960 --> 0:49:24.840 I was, I was very interested in that transition, but 0:49:24.960 --> 0:49:27.880 he was interested in portraying a more positive image just 0:49:27.920 --> 0:49:31.359 when Syrian US relations, I think were deteriorating quite a bit. 0:49:32.560 --> 0:49:34.399 So let's fast forward. What do you think of what's 0:49:34.440 --> 0:49:36.680 happening in Syria right now? And what kind of faith 0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:38.239 do you have in this new leader? You know, to 0:49:38.280 --> 0:49:42.600 go from a you know, essentially the insurgency to the establishment, 0:49:42.719 --> 0:49:46.560 right whether no matter your political situation, no matter your country, 0:49:47.160 --> 0:49:49.280 insurgents usually have a tough time governing. 0:49:49.880 --> 0:49:52.200 That is the question, isn't it? That is one hundred 0:49:52.239 --> 0:49:54.840 thousand dollars question. I get asked it all the time. 0:49:55.160 --> 0:49:57.719 I ask other people who know the president much more 0:49:57.719 --> 0:50:01.399 intimately than the new president, much more intimately that I do, 0:50:01.440 --> 0:50:04.640 and I still get different responses because we really don't know. 0:50:05.040 --> 0:50:07.880 As you just said, going from revolutionary to ruler is 0:50:07.920 --> 0:50:12.200 a trying process it's not always successful. The revolutionary can't really, 0:50:12.680 --> 0:50:16.719 you know, rule in a way that is different from 0:50:16.719 --> 0:50:20.239 the way that he handled things beforehand. Plus, and this 0:50:20.320 --> 0:50:25.160 is throughout history. When rulers of opposition movements they come 0:50:25.200 --> 0:50:28.839 to power, those that help them come to power want dividends. 0:50:29.200 --> 0:50:32.600 They want you know, they want positions in the in 0:50:32.640 --> 0:50:35.440 the government. They have a certain way of looking at things, 0:50:35.520 --> 0:50:36.760 especially if they come from. 0:50:36.680 --> 0:50:40.560 Certain superpowers, believe they should get a little little extra 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:41.839 something as well all the time. 0:50:41.920 --> 0:50:45.200 Yeah, they want not just a little they want on 0:50:45.280 --> 0:50:50.319 everything that so Ama Shaddah, the new president. You know, 0:50:51.040 --> 0:50:55.000 on the one hand, the Israelis, quite frankly, they're skeptical 0:50:55.560 --> 0:50:58.600 and after October seven, twenty twenty three, and this mcbunker 0:50:58.680 --> 0:51:01.360 mentality that they have now, they're want to air in 0:51:01.400 --> 0:51:03.560 the side of caution. And most of the Israelis I've 0:51:03.560 --> 0:51:06.160 talked to in the military and politically, you know, they 0:51:06.200 --> 0:51:12.400 see that Ahma Shada's turn toward moderation, pragmatism, wanting inclusive 0:51:12.440 --> 0:51:16.560 government is more a tactical maneuver than something that represents 0:51:16.600 --> 0:51:18.560 a true change. That he's going to revert to his 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:21.439 Jahada's roots at some point. And yet others I've talked 0:51:21.480 --> 0:51:24.840 to that know him actually personally. One NGO in London 0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:28.920 knew him for ten years and they are convinced he 0:51:29.000 --> 0:51:32.680 is pragmatic. He has changed. You know, he's going to 0:51:32.680 --> 0:51:36.080 be visiting Washington a week from today and meeting with 0:51:36.160 --> 0:51:39.080 Trump and they'll probably serial will sign on to the 0:51:39.120 --> 0:51:42.080 Anti ISIS coalition, which is supposed to be a big deal. 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:45.520 But they've been helping in terms of intelligence cooperation with 0:51:45.560 --> 0:51:48.440 the US and tracking down Okada and isis outbart Is 0:51:48.680 --> 0:51:50.560 when he was an IDLIB for the last decade. Now, 0:51:50.640 --> 0:51:53.080 he did that because he wanted to clear out and 0:51:52.520 --> 0:51:57.960 he helped clear out an any opposition or COMPETI zone. 0:51:58.000 --> 0:51:59.440 I was just going to say, this is a classic 0:51:59.440 --> 0:52:02.080 case the enemy of my enemy as my house exactly exactly. 0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:05.200 But we've had this relationship with him for a while 0:52:05.800 --> 0:52:09.520 that has been tactical and opportunistic. I mean all leaders 0:52:09.560 --> 0:52:13.400 are opportunistic, they want power, they're egotistical. But if it 0:52:13.400 --> 0:52:15.360 could be molded and it couldn't raise, so to speak, 0:52:15.360 --> 0:52:25.920 in a way, the population stability than Okay, So the. 0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:27.520 First person that popped in my head when you were 0:52:27.520 --> 0:52:29.560 talking about this debate, you know, no he's a secret 0:52:29.600 --> 0:52:33.279 jihadis No, he's a pragmatist. Was air to one? Yeah, right, 0:52:33.320 --> 0:52:35.239 we've had the same debate about air to one now 0:52:35.320 --> 0:52:36.640 for almost twenty years. 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:38.239 No, he can be dealt with. 0:52:38.440 --> 0:52:40.920 No, he's you know, at the end of the day, 0:52:40.960 --> 0:52:44.720 he's still Muslim brotherhood, right, Like, there's this and yet 0:52:44.880 --> 0:52:48.239 you know Israel at times doesn't want to deal with him. 0:52:48.239 --> 0:52:49.440 But he's a necessary you. 0:52:49.360 --> 0:52:51.440 Know, he's also the head of a country that's a 0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:55.560 member of NATO, right, Like, there's this necessity. How would 0:52:55.640 --> 0:52:59.560 you characterize the new leader of Syria through the prism 0:52:59.600 --> 0:53:01.400 of air to wore like is he? Is it the 0:53:01.400 --> 0:53:08.359 same type of unsurreness about where their real biases lie? 0:53:08.760 --> 0:53:10.600 Yeah? I think so. I mean, I think we're on 0:53:10.640 --> 0:53:15.280 the road to a sectarian majoritarian state where his Sunni faction, 0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:21.120 particularly a much more conservative branch of Sunni is Law, 0:53:22.400 --> 0:53:24.320 are going to dominate things in Syria. 0:53:24.920 --> 0:53:27.600 If the actually does this mean he's going to get 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:30.080 a lot of funding from MBS ANDBZ and oh yeah, 0:53:30.320 --> 0:53:31.280 oh yeah, as. 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:34.160 He did as they did during the opposition times and well, 0:53:34.280 --> 0:53:36.080 you know, this reminds me you were talking about. This 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:38.920 reminds me nineteen fifties, when we're talking about history in 0:53:38.920 --> 0:53:41.520 the Middle East, there was this wonderful political science term 0:53:41.560 --> 0:53:45.239 that the US applied to these authoritarian leaders. It was 0:53:45.239 --> 0:53:50.000 called transitional authoritarianism, where you know, we support these guys 0:53:50.040 --> 0:53:53.680 because they support US interests with military, political aid to police. 0:53:53.840 --> 0:53:55.840 It's why they all hate us. In Latin America, we 0:53:55.840 --> 0:53:58.319 always supported whoever was on our side, not whether they 0:53:58.360 --> 0:53:59.560 were smalldy democrats. 0:53:59.719 --> 0:54:01.960 Yeah, and we thought they would transition, right, that they 0:54:02.000 --> 0:54:05.320 would transition to democracy. But yeah, oh wow, they live power. 0:54:05.360 --> 0:54:06.719 They want to stay in power. And this is how 0:54:06.719 --> 0:54:08.799 we got with the Shavaran as well, you know, all 0:54:08.800 --> 0:54:11.759 these other guys. So you know, I see this playbook 0:54:11.800 --> 0:54:14.640 again happening with Syria. We're going to be acting in 0:54:14.680 --> 0:54:17.360 our strategic interests as well as Israel. We want to 0:54:17.400 --> 0:54:19.719 keep Iran out, we want to keep the Russians at 0:54:19.760 --> 0:54:23.319 bay in Syria and hope that it just doesn't implode 0:54:24.440 --> 0:54:25.839 into another civil war. 0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:30.319 So can Syria become a democracy pledgling democracy all our 0:54:30.400 --> 0:54:32.000 rock can it? 0:54:33.080 --> 0:54:38.040 Sure? Absolutely, they all can become democracies under certain circumstances. 0:54:38.040 --> 0:54:41.200 It's like, well, those circumstances ever arise and not just 0:54:41.280 --> 0:54:43.640 the you know, the larger ones, big ones, but in 0:54:43.719 --> 0:54:47.080 terms of literacy, literacy rates, in terms of civil society, 0:54:47.120 --> 0:54:49.200 all of these things that happen, in terms of economic 0:54:49.239 --> 0:54:52.000 output and economic opportunity, all these things have to happen 0:54:52.200 --> 0:54:54.200 before we get to the big questions of you know, 0:54:54.239 --> 0:54:56.480 who can vote and how many people get to vote, 0:54:57.120 --> 0:55:01.760 so you know it can happen. But you know, ninety 0:55:01.760 --> 0:55:04.200 percent of the country is in the poverty rate. The 0:55:04.239 --> 0:55:07.600 country has been dealing with fifteen years of withering international sanctions. 0:55:08.440 --> 0:55:13.279 It's a population that's highly fragmented and militarized, with independent militias, 0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:17.480 with drug mafias, with a rapacious warlords roaming around that 0:55:17.520 --> 0:55:21.120 have more power than the national army. And you have 0:55:21.520 --> 0:55:25.160 these sectarian fortresses which were created with the breakdown of 0:55:25.160 --> 0:55:27.160 the state during the Syrians of a war. They you know, 0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:30.160 you naturally retreat into your sectarian fortress and you look 0:55:30.200 --> 0:55:34.640 at the other sex as a heathen scum that must 0:55:34.680 --> 0:55:37.680 be eliminated from the world. And so how do you 0:55:37.800 --> 0:55:42.040 piece all that together? And it's gonna take a long time. 0:55:43.280 --> 0:55:45.600 A lot of patients. It may have to go through 0:55:45.840 --> 0:55:49.680 various iterations of who is in power and hopefully not 0:55:49.840 --> 0:55:51.160 another all out of civil war. 0:55:51.680 --> 0:55:55.520 So the what is I mean, what country has a 0:55:55.560 --> 0:55:59.720 shot at trying democracy next after a rock? And why 0:55:59.800 --> 0:56:03.520 are you surprised that Iraq is still sort of a democracy. 0:56:03.280 --> 0:56:05.680 Sort of being the operative. 0:56:05.360 --> 0:56:07.920 No, I mean it's not not a democracy. You know, 0:56:07.960 --> 0:56:08.760 it's not Egypt. 0:56:09.120 --> 0:56:10.120 You know what is? 0:56:10.440 --> 0:56:12.960 Are we a democracy? You know? We have electoral college? 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:13.680 You know something? 0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:17.120 I mean, you know, do the people have an advanced 0:56:17.160 --> 0:56:19.640 to change the government in this country? And I still 0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:20.560 say the answers. 0:56:20.320 --> 0:56:24.880 Yes, yeah. And so in Iraq. One of the problems, 0:56:24.920 --> 0:56:27.200 and this may be the future of Syria is you 0:56:27.280 --> 0:56:29.560 have the Kurdish Autonomous Zone in the north. 0:56:30.239 --> 0:56:31.759 I want to bring up the Kurds in a minute 0:56:31.760 --> 0:56:32.400 here yet. 0:56:32.440 --> 0:56:35.839 Which is virtually an independent country and actually doing much 0:56:35.840 --> 0:56:37.120 better than the rest of them. 0:56:37.400 --> 0:56:39.920 I don't know why we don't support a Kurdistan. I mean, 0:56:39.960 --> 0:56:42.400 I know why we don't because Turkey loses. 0:56:42.120 --> 0:56:44.840 Turkey Walton, Iran walten, Iraq walten. 0:56:45.719 --> 0:56:48.120 Why you know, all those countries don't want it. 0:56:48.160 --> 0:56:53.880 But you know, isn't the isn't the exposure of Iran 0:56:54.440 --> 0:56:57.480 of being a paper tiger make the idea of a 0:56:57.560 --> 0:56:58.800 Kurdistan more possible. 0:56:59.400 --> 0:57:01.680 I think think so in the sense that they won't 0:57:01.960 --> 0:57:04.479 cause as much trouble in a Rock. And that goes 0:57:04.480 --> 0:57:06.799 for what you were saying earlier, the possibility of Rock 0:57:06.840 --> 0:57:10.040 becoming more of a democracy. I think Iran's being exposed 0:57:10.080 --> 0:57:14.040 and being severely weakened has helped or increase the possibility 0:57:14.040 --> 0:57:16.880 of a Rock becoming a functioning democracy, has increased the 0:57:16.880 --> 0:57:22.920 possibility of Lebanon becoming a functional democracy, and maybe maybe Syria, 0:57:23.080 --> 0:57:26.240 you know, down the road. But you know, at this point, 0:57:26.400 --> 0:57:28.880 you know, I have a low bar of successors. 0:57:29.280 --> 0:57:32.120 How any Middle East expert is it going to ever 0:57:32.160 --> 0:57:32.520 be too? 0:57:32.560 --> 0:57:37.120 Sadly, I just want stability and you know, benevolent governance 0:57:38.000 --> 0:57:38.840 in these countries. 0:57:39.240 --> 0:57:40.240 Well, it's interesting. 0:57:40.240 --> 0:57:42.160 I have a colleague who just came back from Iran, 0:57:42.600 --> 0:57:45.680 spent about two weeks here doing some reporting, touching base 0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:49.800 with some sources again, and he came back pretty convinced 0:57:49.840 --> 0:57:51.800 that the Iatolas are not going to be able to 0:57:51.840 --> 0:57:54.960 hold power when this one dies. That is that this 0:57:55.080 --> 0:57:57.480 is the next big crisis in the Middle East is 0:57:57.520 --> 0:58:01.920 going to be Iranian instability, and that it's sort of 0:58:01.960 --> 0:58:05.520 the It is, on one hand, something we've been wanting 0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:08.919 right as a policy outcome, and yet are we really 0:58:08.960 --> 0:58:09.600 ready for it? 0:58:09.760 --> 0:58:12.880 What say you, Yeah, be careful what you want right, right, 0:58:12.960 --> 0:58:14.760 and careful what you wish for. I guess that's one 0:58:14.760 --> 0:58:17.880 of the reasons why you know, NBS in Saudi Arabia 0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:21.280 wants that security pack so desperate, as well as access 0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:25.720 to nuclear technology because of that anticipation of instability perhaps 0:58:25.720 --> 0:58:28.640 in the future in Iran, and what might what might 0:58:28.680 --> 0:58:31.640 take over in Iran if the iatolas fall? You know, 0:58:31.680 --> 0:58:34.760 will it becomes Sometimes when the boogeyman falls, it's not 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:38.400 necessarily what we want comes into power, something even perhaps worse. 0:58:38.800 --> 0:58:39.960 Well, we saw that in Egypt. 0:58:40.200 --> 0:58:41.240 We saw that in Egypt. 0:58:41.320 --> 0:58:43.720 Yeah, suddenly you're like, well, wait a minute, we'd like 0:58:43.760 --> 0:58:45.440 that military dictatorship back please. 0:58:45.640 --> 0:58:47.720 Yeah, democracy is great as long as they left the 0:58:47.720 --> 0:58:51.760 person we like, right, And but Iran I agree with that. 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:55.080 I agree with your colleagues observation. I think Iran is 0:58:55.080 --> 0:58:55.880 on the precipice. 0:58:56.280 --> 0:58:58.560 You know that this was a really it's really the 0:58:58.800 --> 0:59:03.040 unpopularity of the of the aetolas are huge, the distrust 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:06.480 and then the fact that they so easily folded right, 0:59:06.520 --> 0:59:09.960 there was just there's no longer I mean, yes, they're 0:59:10.000 --> 0:59:15.400 still brutalizing opposition, domestic opposition. They're still trying to be 0:59:15.440 --> 0:59:19.160 an authoritarian state. But they've certainly there's not a lot 0:59:19.160 --> 0:59:20.680 of fear anymore of the Iotolis. 0:59:20.800 --> 0:59:24.640 Yeah. And it's not so they folded. It's not so 0:59:24.720 --> 0:59:27.640 much that they were beaten, they were obliterated. 0:59:28.200 --> 0:59:28.919 Yeah. 0:59:28.960 --> 0:59:32.640 You know, despite all of this, you know, supposed deterrence 0:59:32.640 --> 0:59:36.640 between Israel and Iran, and then Israel goes and takes 0:59:36.640 --> 0:59:39.640 out his Belah in the most and most unique way, 0:59:40.640 --> 0:59:44.520 and then a sad falls and the only viable and 0:59:44.600 --> 0:59:47.440 then Hamas of course is terribly weakened. The only viable 0:59:47.640 --> 0:59:50.000 you know, proxy militia is the Huthis now and Yemen. 0:59:50.080 --> 0:59:54.360 But Iran is weakened their image. I think even more importantly, 0:59:54.400 --> 0:59:58.640 their image has just gone down the tubes with regional powers. Uh. 0:59:58.760 --> 1:00:00.600 And I think we can see a real clignment of this. 1:00:00.880 --> 1:00:02.960 But what will happen in Iran? Iran has always been 1:00:03.200 --> 1:00:05.720 reviewed as the prize, along as already being the Gulf, 1:00:06.280 --> 1:00:08.560 So there are gonna be a lot of eyes the prize. 1:00:08.840 --> 1:00:10.439 I mean, I look at it as if Iran ever 1:00:10.720 --> 1:00:13.480 decides to be a Western democracy, watch out. They're going 1:00:13.560 --> 1:00:15.960 to be an economic powerhouse. 1:00:16.120 --> 1:00:18.840 Oh absolutely, And I mean they've got the largest natural 1:00:18.920 --> 1:00:21.520 gas reserves in the world, large oil reserves, and they 1:00:21.520 --> 1:00:23.600 have the minerals if they can just get their act together. 1:00:23.640 --> 1:00:26.240 Of course, we could say it about Venezuela. We could 1:00:26.240 --> 1:00:28.720 say it about you know, you didn't say it about Syria, 1:00:28.800 --> 1:00:31.360 you know. I mean Syrians for years have always told 1:00:31.400 --> 1:00:33.720 me we'd be much better allies than the Israelis, would 1:00:33.760 --> 1:00:35.600 you know we would. We wouldn't undercut you as much 1:00:35.640 --> 1:00:39.120 as the Israelis have done, and I'm sure the Iranians 1:00:39.320 --> 1:00:41.080 would would try to do it after all. I mean 1:00:41.120 --> 1:00:44.280 it's a you know, far COO's Arabic script is an 1:00:44.320 --> 1:00:46.760 Indo European language, you know, and they have this past 1:00:46.920 --> 1:00:49.200 that aligns with the West in some ways. 1:00:49.840 --> 1:00:53.200 So what do you make of the of this, of 1:00:53.240 --> 1:00:56.520 this idea that the Middle East is essentially now the 1:00:56.640 --> 1:00:59.360 rules are being written by the Israelis and the Gulf States. 1:01:00.680 --> 1:01:03.480 Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. I think 1:01:03.880 --> 1:01:07.400 Israel is at its at its apex of power in 1:01:07.600 --> 1:01:08.080 the region. 1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:11.640 Well it's funny apex of military power, but at a 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:14.600 nator in influence, right. 1:01:15.560 --> 1:01:17.640 I don't know. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that because 1:01:17.640 --> 1:01:20.120 military power speaks a great deal on that part of 1:01:20.160 --> 1:01:23.960 the world. Yeah, and they are isolated international, but how 1:01:24.000 --> 1:01:26.760 often does diplomatic isolation last when you need them, you know, 1:01:26.800 --> 1:01:29.160 when they when they are on your strategic side, and 1:01:29.160 --> 1:01:31.560 that goes out, that was out the window. So I 1:01:31.560 --> 1:01:34.080 don't I don't think the Israelis ever really worry about 1:01:34.120 --> 1:01:36.200 that too much. They're going to do what they want 1:01:36.240 --> 1:01:38.640 to do. They they're going to do what they feel 1:01:38.720 --> 1:01:42.040 is in their strategic objectives, and and they have done that. 1:01:42.120 --> 1:01:44.280 I mean, look at this, Chuck, I mean that they 1:01:44.360 --> 1:01:45.120 bomb Cutter. 1:01:45.240 --> 1:01:48.520 I think it's remarkable. You know, look, it's really frustrating 1:01:48.560 --> 1:01:53.080 to me because you know, look, if they had the 1:01:53.120 --> 1:01:54.920 way they managed the way they did the war in 1:01:54.960 --> 1:01:57.520 Gaza versus the way they did Hesbela, it's like night 1:01:57.560 --> 1:02:00.400 and day. Right, it was the you know, you could tell, 1:02:00.440 --> 1:02:03.480 as I said, bb let IDF do its thing with 1:02:03.560 --> 1:02:08.040 Iran and with with Hesbelah. They micro managed all things 1:02:08.080 --> 1:02:11.200 Gaza through the lens of domestic politics, which is why 1:02:11.240 --> 1:02:14.480 that's turned into an utter nightmare. Right. 1:02:14.880 --> 1:02:16.920 No, I agree, I mean they strategically took out his 1:02:17.000 --> 1:02:20.920 blow in a very phase step way, very strategic way, 1:02:20.960 --> 1:02:22.680 brilliant way in the same. 1:02:22.480 --> 1:02:26.120 Thing the way that we had come to be exactly 1:02:26.120 --> 1:02:28.760 that many admire the Israelis about like they did with Munich. 1:02:28.880 --> 1:02:31.360 They treated Hesbelah like they did the Munich terrorists, you. 1:02:31.360 --> 1:02:35.320 Knoweah, exactly, and they use the bulldozer in Ghaza, and. 1:02:35.560 --> 1:02:38.600 Which is why they have this weird moment where they 1:02:38.600 --> 1:02:44.000 have maximized military power but problems with you know, but 1:02:44.000 --> 1:02:45.840 they're pretty isolated in the in the world. 1:02:45.920 --> 1:02:49.800 Yeah again, they bomb Cutter, and no Arab countries that 1:02:49.840 --> 1:02:53.720 are at peace with Israel break relations with it, you know, 1:02:54.160 --> 1:02:54.840 not even Cuting. 1:02:54.880 --> 1:02:58.959 You're right, it's astonishing. It was so brazenishing moment. 1:02:59.000 --> 1:03:01.640 It's an amazing moment. And and talks about how those 1:03:01.680 --> 1:03:05.880 shifts have occurred in the region UH and UH and 1:03:05.920 --> 1:03:09.720 the and the importance of the Gulf state's intelligence cooperation, 1:03:09.880 --> 1:03:12.640 economic cooperation that they've had with th REELL for for 1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:16.640 years prior to you know, some of them establishing relations. 1:03:17.000 --> 1:03:21.120 So this is this is absolutely a sea change for me. 1:03:21.840 --> 1:03:24.280 And I see Syria coming on board if this current 1:03:24.480 --> 1:03:28.080 uh UH government stays in power and follows along the 1:03:28.120 --> 1:03:31.240 line they're doing at least signing a security arrangement with 1:03:31.440 --> 1:03:34.160 Israel and then once society has crossed the line, which 1:03:34.200 --> 1:03:37.840 they were they were gonna do probably if October seventh 1:03:37.840 --> 1:03:39.560 didn't happen, which is one of the reasons, as you know, 1:03:39.680 --> 1:03:41.920 the Hamas did. October seventh was. 1:03:42.000 --> 1:03:44.240 No, it was the you know, it's interesting, it was 1:03:44.480 --> 1:03:46.560 you know the way Washington works, you know, in the 1:03:46.960 --> 1:03:50.280 sort of everything is a deal. You know, the Saudis 1:03:50.280 --> 1:03:53.080 were going to give Biden this, Yeah, this was going 1:03:53.120 --> 1:03:55.560 to be Biden's like they weren't going to hold you know, 1:03:55.680 --> 1:03:58.840 the Trump people were pressuring them to to basically wait 1:03:58.960 --> 1:04:02.320 until Trump was there to add Saudi to the Abraham Accords, 1:04:02.760 --> 1:04:03.280 and they were. 1:04:03.120 --> 1:04:05.080 Gonna because the Saudi's weren't. They're not stupid. 1:04:05.080 --> 1:04:08.160 They want to play bipartisan American politics here. They want 1:04:08.200 --> 1:04:13.320 to everybody because they frankly knew, unlike Bebe, the Saudis 1:04:13.360 --> 1:04:15.280 knew they had a problem in America's left and that 1:04:15.480 --> 1:04:17.560 they were better off trying to appease the American left 1:04:17.640 --> 1:04:20.280 rather than fight it. BB wants to fight it rather 1:04:20.320 --> 1:04:22.680 than appease. But I'll but we could set that aside. 1:04:23.800 --> 1:04:28.680 And October seventh, obviously made that impossible. But where talk 1:04:28.720 --> 1:04:30.240 to my friends that are going to be listening to 1:04:30.280 --> 1:04:33.320 this and say, I can't stomach MBS. Why should we 1:04:33.720 --> 1:04:36.720 help him? What's say, give me the give me the 1:04:37.360 --> 1:04:41.960 academic view of why we've Why would they're a necessary partner? 1:04:42.720 --> 1:04:44.840 Oh, he's the only game in town right now for 1:04:45.240 --> 1:04:48.800 a very important strategic country. And and uh, you know, 1:04:48.840 --> 1:04:51.120 I don't at all like some of the things he's on, 1:04:51.200 --> 1:04:56.160 especially to you know, Koshoji and uh In in assassinating 1:04:56.160 --> 1:04:59.480 and dismembering him, some of these things. But uh, you know, 1:04:59.520 --> 1:05:03.080 I'm all more of a realistic understand that. You know, 1:05:03.160 --> 1:05:06.680 tomorrow is a different day, and the Saudis an NBS 1:05:06.720 --> 1:05:11.600 may be very much needed. You know now that now 1:05:11.680 --> 1:05:14.960 that you know Iraan is perhaps weaken We always thought 1:05:14.960 --> 1:05:17.120 of them at the Saudis as a counterway to Iran, 1:05:17.160 --> 1:05:19.600 But we have to see what's going to happen with Iran. 1:05:20.440 --> 1:05:23.480 It'll be interesting in the future. This will be interesting 1:05:23.560 --> 1:05:27.520 if ten fifteen years from now, Iran does get rid 1:05:27.560 --> 1:05:32.960 of the Ietolas, does stabilize, does become this potential economic 1:05:33.160 --> 1:05:37.440 power is you know, much like Germany in mainland Europe. 1:05:37.800 --> 1:05:41.280 You know, what will happen with the Saudis relationship and 1:05:41.320 --> 1:05:45.080 so forth? Can the two mutually coexist with US interests? 1:05:45.400 --> 1:05:45.560 Right? 1:05:45.600 --> 1:05:48.840 You could see three economic powers in the Middle East Israel, 1:05:49.960 --> 1:05:55.360 a democratic Iran, and this sort of religious monarchy in 1:05:55.440 --> 1:05:58.400 the Gulf, right with the Saudis, and they are they 1:05:58.440 --> 1:06:01.360 going to be alliance? Are they going to be competitors? Right? 1:06:01.800 --> 1:06:04.960 Yeah, exactly, exactly, and that will be interesting to see 1:06:05.040 --> 1:06:07.520 and so many, so much more history will occur before. 1:06:07.360 --> 1:06:10.840 We can answer that question. So let's move backwards about 1:06:10.840 --> 1:06:14.720 your baseball career and how you you. 1:06:14.640 --> 1:06:17.680 Know, tell me how you fused it? You know, what 1:06:17.760 --> 1:06:19.560 is it? What are the lessons? You know? 1:06:19.600 --> 1:06:25.240 I'm a huge advocate of sports in general, youth sports. 1:06:25.520 --> 1:06:29.800 It teaches human interaction, it teaches there's so many lessons 1:06:29.800 --> 1:06:34.080 from team sports. In particular. I think football is ideally 1:06:34.120 --> 1:06:37.520 the most incredible team sport to deliver because eleven people 1:06:37.560 --> 1:06:41.920 have to do their job for success. In baseball, everybody 1:06:41.920 --> 1:06:43.480 has to do their job. There's a little bit of 1:06:43.480 --> 1:06:46.880 individual talent, right, you know that you can, but ultimately 1:06:47.000 --> 1:06:48.760 you don't win with that. You could be the greatest 1:06:48.800 --> 1:06:50.280 player in the world, Tad Williams, but if you don't 1:06:50.280 --> 1:06:52.360 have enough good baseball players around you, You're not going 1:06:52.400 --> 1:06:57.040 to win a World Series. So you know how when 1:06:57.080 --> 1:07:00.080 somebody says the lessons of baseball helped me become a 1:07:00.200 --> 1:07:04.000 better give me better perspective about the Middle East? You 1:07:04.080 --> 1:07:05.480 answer this question half. 1:07:05.840 --> 1:07:08.600 Because I failed so many times in baseball. I mean, 1:07:08.640 --> 1:07:09.000 as you and. 1:07:09.000 --> 1:07:11.040 Mist in the Middle East is a lot of failure, 1:07:11.280 --> 1:07:12.040 A lot of failure. 1:07:12.560 --> 1:07:15.240 I mean, failure is at the core of sports. I mean, 1:07:15.240 --> 1:07:17.520 you know, what do you have to hit to reach 1:07:17.560 --> 1:07:19.880 the Hall of Fame in Major League Baseball? 1:07:19.920 --> 1:07:22.320 You only have to fail seven out of ten times. 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:24.880 Exactly, And so you have to keep coming back as 1:07:24.880 --> 1:07:26.800 a pitcher. Of course, I was a hitter as well 1:07:26.840 --> 1:07:29.680 early on, but in professional baseball was a pitcher. And 1:07:29.720 --> 1:07:31.320 you know, one inning you give up a home run. 1:07:31.360 --> 1:07:32.920 The next inning, you know you have a chance to 1:07:33.000 --> 1:07:35.920 rectify the situation or the next game, and so you 1:07:36.160 --> 1:07:39.320 constantly fail. And I played basketball and tennis and all 1:07:39.560 --> 1:07:44.600 in football when I was young, and you were constantly tested, 1:07:44.840 --> 1:07:49.160 and you developed this resiliency which Sanjay Gupta I read 1:07:49.160 --> 1:07:52.600 the other day says resiliency is like strength training for 1:07:52.640 --> 1:07:55.280 the brain, you know, and it helps you get through 1:07:55.600 --> 1:07:58.640 personal traumas it helps you get through failures later in life, 1:07:58.680 --> 1:08:02.040 and as I've become a conflict resolution person involved in 1:08:02.400 --> 1:08:05.760 high level negotiations and air BISAREELI stuff, steering, civil war. 1:08:06.280 --> 1:08:08.160 You fail all the time, I mean, but you have 1:08:08.240 --> 1:08:10.800 to learn from it, and you have to have that resiliency, 1:08:10.840 --> 1:08:14.760 that persistence, perseverance to get through it and try again, 1:08:14.800 --> 1:08:17.680 and try again and try again. Now you don't want 1:08:17.720 --> 1:08:20.120 to make you know, Einstein's theory of insanity correct, but 1:08:21.280 --> 1:08:24.519 you you, you know, learn from it and it just 1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:28.280 and sometimes things just out of out of your control, 1:08:29.160 --> 1:08:31.680 ruins everything and brings you back to ground zero. And 1:08:31.680 --> 1:08:33.880 that's what happens in sports as well. And you just 1:08:33.960 --> 1:08:37.880 have to have that resiliency. And so, you know, one 1:08:37.880 --> 1:08:41.080 of my mantras is keep trying, don't eliminate yourself, and 1:08:41.160 --> 1:08:44.840 keep trying. And that I had to think. That's what 1:08:44.880 --> 1:08:46.960 I got from baseball and sports in general. 1:08:47.479 --> 1:08:50.479 When you you know, do you look back on your 1:08:50.479 --> 1:08:55.040 injury and think, boy, if it happened today, you know, 1:08:55.160 --> 1:08:57.519 the technology would have given me another chance. 1:08:57.880 --> 1:09:00.719 Jock, you be interviewing the lead comment of the World 1:09:00.760 --> 1:09:04.120 Series right now, the lead analyst after a twenty year, 1:09:04.200 --> 1:09:06.360 brilliant Hall of Fame career at the injury. 1:09:06.479 --> 1:09:08.360 Now that's the what if in your head? 1:09:08.479 --> 1:09:09.840 How do you not think about that? 1:09:09.840 --> 1:09:10.320 What if? 1:09:10.840 --> 1:09:11.040 Yeah? 1:09:11.040 --> 1:09:15.240 I'm all the technological advancements. I mean, you know, Sandy 1:09:15.320 --> 1:09:19.639 Kofax's career ends. You know, show has already had two. 1:09:19.479 --> 1:09:23.040 Tommy Jones, Yeah, I think, right, you know. 1:09:24.040 --> 1:09:28.120 It's uh, it's remarkable, right, Like Sandy Kofex might have 1:09:28.160 --> 1:09:29.880 had another five great years. 1:09:29.960 --> 1:09:31.960 Yeah, I mean, you know, I had a rotator cuff 1:09:32.000 --> 1:09:34.439 injury and rotator cuff surgery by Frank Joe, but the 1:09:34.479 --> 1:09:38.800 Dodgers didn't really perfect itself for another five ten years. Yes, yeah, 1:09:38.840 --> 1:09:41.040 I mean I really don't think of that because I've 1:09:41.040 --> 1:09:45.200 had a fulfilling, you know, career in many ways more fulfilling, 1:09:45.320 --> 1:09:48.240 and I have a wonderful wife and family and so forth, 1:09:48.280 --> 1:09:51.280 so you know, all those If I become a major 1:09:51.360 --> 1:09:53.400 league player, that wouldn't have happened and wouldn't have met 1:09:53.400 --> 1:09:55.840 these one of the people. But I don't really think 1:09:55.880 --> 1:10:00.280 of that. But but you know, sometimes, you know, I 1:10:00.320 --> 1:10:02.559 think I would have made a lot more money. That's 1:10:02.640 --> 1:10:06.719 rich there being a major league pitcher. But drafting pictures 1:10:06.920 --> 1:10:09.360 is the worst investment in all of sports. That's why 1:10:09.400 --> 1:10:11.960 you got a draft about ten or fifteen of them. 1:10:12.000 --> 1:10:14.960 Hopefully one gets through because of all the injuries, because 1:10:15.160 --> 1:10:21.000 everything you do physiologically pitcher is wrong against normal you know, physiology. 1:10:21.040 --> 1:10:23.240 Well, it's funny you say that I got you know. 1:10:23.479 --> 1:10:25.080 I think I told you off camera. 1:10:25.280 --> 1:10:27.559 I was The Dodgers were the team of my youth, 1:10:27.640 --> 1:10:30.320 so I used to just I know a lot of 1:10:30.360 --> 1:10:32.920 the history of the Dodgers in general, and any any 1:10:32.960 --> 1:10:36.000 individual player that sort of had made a name for themselves. 1:10:36.160 --> 1:10:39.960 I always have some curiosity about and the relief pitcher 1:10:40.000 --> 1:10:42.360 Mike Marshall, who I believes the first ever relief pitcher 1:10:42.360 --> 1:10:46.759 to win this ion. He spent the last twenty years 1:10:46.800 --> 1:10:51.720 of his like obsessed with changing the motion of pictures 1:10:52.200 --> 1:10:55.240 for the very thing you just said said, like the 1:10:56.080 --> 1:11:00.559 way that we've taught pitching is actually asked the arm 1:11:00.640 --> 1:11:04.040 to do something it shouldn't be doing, and that if 1:11:04.040 --> 1:11:08.040 you change the motion, you could actually limit injuries. And 1:11:08.080 --> 1:11:11.800 I believe his method did produce one major leaguer who 1:11:11.840 --> 1:11:15.080 got into the majors. But given when you came up, 1:11:15.120 --> 1:11:17.599 it was sort of tail end of Marshall's career there. 1:11:18.520 --> 1:11:19.839 Did you ever follow that. 1:11:21.800 --> 1:11:24.400 That whole like, oh the case he had? 1:11:24.640 --> 1:11:26.280 Yeah, yeah, it's funny. I was. I was just thinking 1:11:26.320 --> 1:11:28.559 about this yesterday when I was talking to someone. If 1:11:28.600 --> 1:11:32.880 I had to change something with my motion I was 1:11:33.200 --> 1:11:35.880 in college and then drafted in the pros, it would 1:11:35.880 --> 1:11:39.840 be throwing more side arm. I was a straight overhand pitcher, 1:11:39.840 --> 1:11:42.040 and the more straight overhand you throw, the more pressure. 1:11:42.080 --> 1:11:44.200 Oh my goodness, it's right on your shoulder. Like this 1:11:44.320 --> 1:11:47.280 kid at the Blue Jays. Now, I just heard, right, 1:11:47.400 --> 1:11:49.720 this kid with the Blue Jays, You savage. 1:11:50.960 --> 1:11:52.719 Don't you watch him throw and think. 1:11:52.720 --> 1:11:55.519 Yeah, buddy, in about two years, you're going to have soldiers. Suit. 1:11:55.600 --> 1:11:57.799 It's going to happen, and they're all throwing so hard 1:11:57.840 --> 1:12:00.920 and putting so much stress on their extra ligaments in 1:12:00.960 --> 1:12:03.439 their forearm that they're all getting Tommy John surgery. I mean, 1:12:03.600 --> 1:12:06.360 as you said, Otani had two, it's like everyone has one. 1:12:06.479 --> 1:12:09.040 They're having them now in high school and college. It's like, 1:12:09.400 --> 1:12:12.880 you know, you know something that has to happen before, well, 1:12:12.920 --> 1:12:14.000 isn't it you? Now? 1:12:14.640 --> 1:12:18.160 Rarely will an MLB team draft a high school pitcher anymore? Right? 1:12:18.439 --> 1:12:23.439 They almost want the college level get your Tommy John out. 1:12:23.600 --> 1:12:26.920 Get LSU to pay for the Tommy John, right, Get 1:12:27.000 --> 1:12:29.519 cal State Fullerton to pay the Tommy John, you know 1:12:29.640 --> 1:12:31.479 that sort of thing, and then we'll. 1:12:31.479 --> 1:12:34.080 Off, you know, and come back for twenty three or 1:12:34.160 --> 1:12:37.240 you know, something like that. And it's so much stress 1:12:37.280 --> 1:12:39.800 on the body in the arm. But throwing sidearm, if 1:12:39.840 --> 1:12:41.640 I had to go back, I do that because I 1:12:41.640 --> 1:12:43.400 did throw a sidearm every now and then just to 1:12:43.400 --> 1:12:45.880 cross up the hitter. I crossed up my catcher as well. 1:12:45.920 --> 1:12:50.360 But yeah, it was effective, and I threw actually even harder. 1:12:50.439 --> 1:12:53.800 I mean I had a low nineties, high eighties fastball, 1:12:54.120 --> 1:12:56.200 you know, peaked at ninety five, which in those days 1:12:56.400 --> 1:12:59.479 actually meant something. Can you believe change ups today are 1:12:59.560 --> 1:13:02.719 ninety miles hour change The whole goal. 1:13:02.520 --> 1:13:04.559 Of a change up is what it has to be ten. 1:13:04.400 --> 1:13:06.720 Miles less than your fast ball, exactly right. 1:13:06.960 --> 1:13:09.240 So if you're throwing a hundred, then yeah, right. 1:13:10.080 --> 1:13:13.559 That's just unfathomable to me. And sliders at ninety miles 1:13:13.560 --> 1:13:15.519 an hours, I don't know how these hitters are doing it, 1:13:16.080 --> 1:13:17.360 how they can hit these things, But. 1:13:17.439 --> 1:13:19.519 I know there's this point where you wonder, when does 1:13:19.560 --> 1:13:22.920 the ligament just when does the body we have reached 1:13:22.960 --> 1:13:25.759 the peak performance of the body. 1:13:26.160 --> 1:13:29.519 Yeah, and I think, you know, I think there's going 1:13:29.560 --> 1:13:32.040 to be a trend. This is getting so it's a 1:13:32.080 --> 1:13:35.559 pandemic of Tommy John surgery. I think there's going to 1:13:35.560 --> 1:13:37.840 be a trend to go back to the great Maddis 1:13:37.880 --> 1:13:40.559 Maddox type of pitching, you know, high eighties, maybe low 1:13:40.640 --> 1:13:44.839 nineties at best, movement on the ball, placement, pitch longer. 1:13:45.280 --> 1:13:47.360 I mean, you know, we were talking off camera and 1:13:47.720 --> 1:13:51.200 Jim Palmer and right Bob Gison's guy. They threw three 1:13:51.280 --> 1:14:01.160 hundred innings year after year, twenty complete games. So I. 1:14:02.760 --> 1:14:03.439 Love Fernando. 1:14:04.000 --> 1:14:06.519 Fernando was you know, I was ten when he came 1:14:06.640 --> 1:14:09.200 up right like that was peak, you know, and he 1:14:09.360 --> 1:14:11.479 was so much fun that World Series in eighty one 1:14:11.720 --> 1:14:15.719 and following his career and you look at his year 1:14:16.360 --> 1:14:18.600 stats and it was always like I always thought he was. 1:14:18.920 --> 1:14:21.240 I always thought he belonged to the Hall of Fame 1:14:21.880 --> 1:14:25.160 before everything else he did. And when you look at 1:14:25.160 --> 1:14:28.040 his eight year sort of his eight year peak, Nope, 1:14:28.280 --> 1:14:30.000 he always threw three hundred innings. 1:14:30.040 --> 1:14:30.240 You know. 1:14:30.479 --> 1:14:33.120 The joke was Tommy, you know, ruined his career by 1:14:33.160 --> 1:14:35.600 leaving him into always way too long, and that he 1:14:36.040 --> 1:14:39.880 that he basically his eight years was the equivalent of 1:14:39.920 --> 1:14:43.240 what would be a seventeen year career today per number 1:14:43.240 --> 1:14:44.480 of innings you pitch. 1:14:44.880 --> 1:14:47.840 Exactly, exactly. Remember the Braves, you know when they had 1:14:47.880 --> 1:14:51.240 Smolds and Maddocks and glad Lavin. Yeah, they all pitched, 1:14:51.400 --> 1:14:54.160 you know, every four days. They pitched long, you know, 1:14:54.240 --> 1:14:57.519 deep into the game. And analytics have, in my mind, 1:14:57.560 --> 1:14:59.439 screw things up with that regard. And you know, you 1:14:59.479 --> 1:15:01.680 can't face a batter more than two times or the 1:15:01.720 --> 1:15:03.640 third time they're going to catch on to you. But 1:15:03.720 --> 1:15:05.680 this is what pitching is all about, if you have 1:15:05.800 --> 1:15:09.040 enough pitches and and uh yeah, Maddox. 1:15:09.439 --> 1:15:11.280 I love those stories of Maddox, you know, and hear 1:15:11.400 --> 1:15:13.800 stories and he says, yeah, I let this guy see 1:15:13.800 --> 1:15:15.280 this pitch because I know I'm facing him in the 1:15:15.280 --> 1:15:17.439 playoffs and he's gonna think I'm gonna throw it again, 1:15:17.439 --> 1:15:20.439 and I'm never going to do Like Maddox was always. 1:15:20.400 --> 1:15:22.000 Game planning on that bat. 1:15:22.120 --> 1:15:24.639 The next at bat when he was facing the current batter, 1:15:24.920 --> 1:15:26.880 I'm gonna make him pop this one up, And sure 1:15:26.960 --> 1:15:30.400 enough he could do that. Like that's just that's pitching. 1:15:30.720 --> 1:15:31.880 That's that's strac. 1:15:31.760 --> 1:15:34.760 Actually thinking, actually thinking on the mound, you know. And 1:15:35.200 --> 1:15:37.479 and maybe that's why I'm into academia, Chuck. They always 1:15:37.520 --> 1:15:39.200 thought think. 1:15:39.120 --> 1:15:42.880 Can you imagine do they having an earpiece, oh where 1:15:42.920 --> 1:15:44.679 somebody's telling you what pitch to throat? 1:15:44.920 --> 1:15:47.439 That would be insulting to me. You know, I call 1:15:47.520 --> 1:15:49.759 the game. I think is it shirt ser you mentioned 1:15:49.800 --> 1:15:52.680 him Searcher actually shirts his own game. Don't ever get 1:15:52.760 --> 1:15:53.880 me one of these things, you know. 1:15:53.960 --> 1:15:55.200 And now Max is the left. 1:15:55.320 --> 1:15:58.240 Max, it feels like we're about to see the end 1:15:58.280 --> 1:16:02.479 of the last era of sort of the twentieth century 1:16:02.560 --> 1:16:06.040 style of pitching. We're moving to this, right. Susier was 1:16:06.080 --> 1:16:08.040 always a throwback, you know. He never wanted to go 1:16:08.120 --> 1:16:10.719 less than seven, right, He always wanted to keep going. 1:16:11.040 --> 1:16:15.519 Your Verlanders, your Sugiers, your Kershaws, and here they are. 1:16:15.560 --> 1:16:19.400 They're all basically probably I kind of think Max, I 1:16:20.120 --> 1:16:22.040 want him to retire. Now he gets to say he 1:16:22.080 --> 1:16:24.760 pitched the last gave me pitch was a series. But 1:16:24.840 --> 1:16:27.920 it's hard to walk away, right, Like, how often did 1:16:27.960 --> 1:16:29.280 you wish you had one more year? 1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:33.400 I wish I wish I had I wish I had 1:16:33.439 --> 1:16:35.680 one year in the majors. I mean, as you know, 1:16:36.040 --> 1:16:38.800 I flamed out the miners. I wish I would have 1:16:38.800 --> 1:16:41.040 stayed healthy enough to God, because I went up against 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:45.120 these guys in spring training and batting practice. 1:16:44.680 --> 1:16:47.400 And you knew you had your stuff. It was just 1:16:47.439 --> 1:16:50.080 the injury that never gave me the shot I help, So, 1:16:50.240 --> 1:16:50.559 you know, I. 1:16:50.600 --> 1:16:53.160 Mean there's lots of ifs and what ifs, and sure 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:54.920 I think I had the basic stuff. That's why I 1:16:54.920 --> 1:16:57.799 was drafting number one, I think, and by the Dodgers, 1:16:57.840 --> 1:17:01.000 so I like to think, I you know, if not, they. 1:17:00.880 --> 1:17:03.320 Were always a little bit better at identifying young pictures. 1:17:03.600 --> 1:17:05.679 I mean that was their thing. That's what they did. 1:17:06.000 --> 1:17:07.599 That's what they did. But you still got to get 1:17:07.600 --> 1:17:09.400 a bunch of them because you just never know when 1:17:09.400 --> 1:17:11.280 the body's going to give out, and it will give 1:17:11.280 --> 1:17:14.559 out unless you're Clemens or Nolan Ryan has to be a. 1:17:14.479 --> 1:17:17.360 Bionical I read, is it Nolan Ryan that doesn't have 1:17:17.960 --> 1:17:22.880 the the the tendon that would snap or something like? 1:17:22.960 --> 1:17:25.719 He was basically literally a gift from. 1:17:25.520 --> 1:17:28.120 God type of I know, I know, elbow it's the key. 1:17:28.200 --> 1:17:29.880 You know, if you want your kid to become a pitcher, 1:17:29.920 --> 1:17:33.160 take out, take out the flexor tendon or something like that. 1:17:33.080 --> 1:17:35.960 Like, don't even have it. It turns out it's an impediment. 1:17:36.080 --> 1:17:38.519 Yeah, oh yeah, I mean, but look at his legs, 1:17:38.680 --> 1:17:41.639 you know, uh Nolan Ryan and Tom c they're huge, 1:17:41.720 --> 1:17:43.679 and he got a lot of his power. It got 1:17:43.720 --> 1:17:46.280 low and pushed off and that's what a lot of 1:17:46.320 --> 1:17:47.320 pictures it. 1:17:47.400 --> 1:17:51.400 Certainly it looks like he's built that way. Yeah, exactly, 1:17:51.400 --> 1:17:54.080 He's built bottom up. And if you told me, if 1:17:54.120 --> 1:17:56.439 I told you, he never It's interesting, by the way, 1:17:56.479 --> 1:17:58.519 a guy like Max Scherzer's never had a Tommy John 1:17:58.600 --> 1:18:01.840 and neither's Kershaw. Right, what does it tell you if 1:18:01.880 --> 1:18:05.840 you've never had one these days. 1:18:06.120 --> 1:18:09.920 That if you pitch the right way, if you don't 1:18:09.920 --> 1:18:12.960 worry about throwing, use your legs now, use your legs, 1:18:13.120 --> 1:18:16.519 use your body. And there's all sorts of mechanics now 1:18:16.560 --> 1:18:19.799 to align your body. There's so much more technology. Perhaps 1:18:19.800 --> 1:18:21.760 when I was playing, if they had that technology, they 1:18:21.760 --> 1:18:24.599 would have aligned my body my motion more. I put 1:18:24.640 --> 1:18:28.160 less stress on the elbow shoulder for me. So you 1:18:28.200 --> 1:18:30.519 know they can do these things. But man, if you're 1:18:30.560 --> 1:18:33.000 throwing one hundred miles an hour, your arm is going 1:18:33.080 --> 1:18:36.519 to give out. You just cannot take that type of pressure. 1:18:36.880 --> 1:18:39.200 And the thing is, you know, hitters are they catch up, 1:18:39.240 --> 1:18:42.679 they're hitting these balls. And I've leuis, how many teams 1:18:42.800 --> 1:18:46.519 your favorite teams? And a guy Jamie Moyer, you know, 1:18:46.760 --> 1:18:50.960 who's forty he pitched forever eighty two miles an hour, 1:18:51.040 --> 1:18:53.000 eighty five miles an hour, and he pitches a shout 1:18:53.000 --> 1:18:56.080 out because hitters aren't used to that type of thing. 1:18:56.160 --> 1:18:58.760 You know, they're not used to eighty eighty with with 1:18:58.880 --> 1:19:03.040 motion and with the motion in the ball and with targeting, 1:19:03.439 --> 1:19:07.280 you know, target to pitching. So it's I think there 1:19:07.320 --> 1:19:09.760 there's room for both. And I think I agree with you. 1:19:09.800 --> 1:19:11.680 I think we're gonna trend sort of in a in 1:19:11.720 --> 1:19:13.479 another direction. I hope, I hope. 1:19:13.680 --> 1:19:16.160 Well, it was exciting to see Amamoto throw a complete game. 1:19:16.160 --> 1:19:18.720 You're like, hey, that used to be a big that 1:19:18.880 --> 1:19:20.720 used to not be as big of a deal. A 1:19:20.840 --> 1:19:22.160 complete game of the World Series. 1:19:22.320 --> 1:19:24.840 It must be a different Yamamoto, you know at some point. 1:19:24.880 --> 1:19:26.880 But and then he comes back the day after and 1:19:26.880 --> 1:19:29.120 throws you know, three innings, you know, after he throws 1:19:29.160 --> 1:19:33.360 a I mean, it's unbelievable, and uh, you know, I 1:19:33.680 --> 1:19:37.160 hope his arm is Okay, uh, you know, I'm sure, 1:19:37.280 --> 1:19:39.880 having invested gazillion dollars in him, they're not going to 1:19:40.400 --> 1:19:40.840 ruin him. 1:19:41.200 --> 1:19:43.679 But I'm sorry as a as a Natch fan who 1:19:44.320 --> 1:19:47.639 watched the team make the decision not to use their 1:19:47.680 --> 1:19:50.800 young star pitcher in a run to the playoffs, and 1:19:50.840 --> 1:19:54.360 then they decided to over use them in their eventual 1:19:54.479 --> 1:19:57.200 run to the World Series. They you know, the price 1:19:57.240 --> 1:20:00.320 of the world. I mean, Steven Strasburg never recover from 1:20:00.320 --> 1:20:01.000 that overuse. 1:20:01.160 --> 1:20:02.400 That's true, That's true. 1:20:02.439 --> 1:20:04.960 I mean it ended his career. Now, the question is, 1:20:04.960 --> 1:20:08.040 as a franchise, if the ultimate prize is winning the 1:20:08.040 --> 1:20:10.120 World Championship? Is it worth it? 1:20:10.400 --> 1:20:12.880 Would you take that? Is that? Is that? Is that? Well? 1:20:12.920 --> 1:20:15.960 They did? That's the disc Basically, the Nats made that 1:20:16.160 --> 1:20:16.519 worth it. 1:20:16.560 --> 1:20:19.880 As a Gnats fan, are you is that worth it? 1:20:19.880 --> 1:20:22.560 It's a great question I'm glad to have had. I 1:20:22.960 --> 1:20:25.440 I tell this to my son because he's so depressed 1:20:25.439 --> 1:20:28.439 about the state of the Nats and it's an ownership 1:20:28.439 --> 1:20:30.439 group that doesn't look like they want to keep up 1:20:30.479 --> 1:20:32.559 with the Joneses or the Guggenheims, et cetera. 1:20:32.680 --> 1:20:34.360 Right, right, correct, But. 1:20:36.640 --> 1:20:40.320 I tell him, you know what's what makes fandom fantastic 1:20:41.280 --> 1:20:45.400 because you experience a low for so long that when 1:20:45.439 --> 1:20:47.680 you get the taste of the high, it's so much 1:20:47.720 --> 1:20:48.679 it tastes so much better. 1:20:49.040 --> 1:20:51.280 Well, you're talking to as I said before, I grew 1:20:51.360 --> 1:20:53.880 up in Baltimore, a lifelong Orioles fan. We haven't won 1:20:53.920 --> 1:20:56.840 the World Series since eighty three. If we had an opportunity, 1:20:56.960 --> 1:20:59.120 if we were in the World Series this year, throw 1:20:59.240 --> 1:21:03.559 cost win, throw right the top pitchers every every inning. 1:21:03.680 --> 1:21:06.400 I don't care. You know everything you know, and I'm 1:21:06.439 --> 1:21:09.200 a pitcher. I realized what could happen with overuse? 1:21:09.760 --> 1:21:12.760 You know? So let me ask the Otani question to you, 1:21:12.880 --> 1:21:14.519 because I'm sure you get a version of it, But 1:21:14.680 --> 1:21:17.479 let me ask it this way. Why is this so unusual? 1:21:17.800 --> 1:21:21.719 I why why haven't more pitchers been more successful hitters 1:21:21.760 --> 1:21:22.280 in the past. 1:21:22.760 --> 1:21:24.479 Yeah, well, I think I think you're going to see this. 1:21:24.640 --> 1:21:27.000 And one of the things that most people don't realize 1:21:27.160 --> 1:21:31.280 is that major league pitchers, almost all of them, I 1:21:31.320 --> 1:21:33.679 would say, were really great hitters. 1:21:33.760 --> 1:21:35.640 In little They were probably the best team in their 1:21:35.680 --> 1:21:38.439 little league. Best. They played every If they weren't pitching, 1:21:38.520 --> 1:21:39.519 they were playing shortstop. 1:21:39.600 --> 1:21:41.880 Right on my high school team, I was the best hitter. 1:21:42.280 --> 1:21:44.880 I was the best pitcher in college. It happens. But 1:21:44.960 --> 1:21:47.519 in college you start getting weeded out and you get 1:21:47.560 --> 1:21:51.040 into specialization. I remember, even when I was playing in 1:21:51.120 --> 1:21:54.240 the minor leagues, only the Cincinnati Reds, even in the 1:21:54.280 --> 1:21:57.600 minor low one near leagues, allow pitchers to hit. But 1:21:58.280 --> 1:22:01.799 otherwise you're you know, DH four, and you never practice, 1:22:01.840 --> 1:22:04.040 you never take hitting practice. And so just like anything, 1:22:04.600 --> 1:22:09.040 you do skill and so the specialization of it. But 1:22:09.200 --> 1:22:11.360 I did when a little league game, I did pitch 1:22:11.439 --> 1:22:13.800 a complete game, six inning shutout and hit a home 1:22:13.880 --> 1:22:16.000 run in the game. So and it was a legitimate 1:22:16.080 --> 1:22:19.000 home run, not a little league Yeah, you get a 1:22:19.000 --> 1:22:22.200 show exactly, but I do. 1:22:22.560 --> 1:22:26.120 It was always one of those I never understood why 1:22:26.600 --> 1:22:29.200 more pitchers couldn't take batting practice on their off days. 1:22:29.800 --> 1:22:32.719 Yeah, I know it. I don't know. Maybe the Union 1:22:32.800 --> 1:22:36.160 got together and this is this is conspiracy theory talk, 1:22:36.280 --> 1:22:38.360 and they said they want these older guys who can 1:22:38.400 --> 1:22:38.960 want jobs. 1:22:40.200 --> 1:22:42.760 A conspiracy theory. No, no, no, no. The argument the 1:22:42.840 --> 1:22:44.639 DH is more jobs. 1:22:45.200 --> 1:22:48.360 He Aaron, Tommy Davis, you know these these older guys 1:22:48.400 --> 1:22:50.280 that can't play in the field, and and they want 1:22:50.320 --> 1:22:52.800 more offense. I mean, that's the that's the key. You know, 1:22:52.840 --> 1:22:54.840 they want more runs, they want more offense. It was 1:22:54.880 --> 1:22:58.200 a business decision. And all the National League, of course 1:22:58.320 --> 1:23:01.720 is designated hit her and I missed the strategy of 1:23:01.800 --> 1:23:03.519 the picture hitting and all of that sort of thing. 1:23:03.600 --> 1:23:05.680 And but and there were some good there were some 1:23:05.800 --> 1:23:08.880 good pictures some you know who who hit as well. 1:23:09.040 --> 1:23:10.120 So I miss So. 1:23:11.600 --> 1:23:14.760 Could you know there's there's a team Israel in the 1:23:15.120 --> 1:23:19.640 World Baseball Classic, but baseball's never really taken in the 1:23:19.680 --> 1:23:23.959 Middle East. There is some cricket. Could you ever imagine 1:23:24.040 --> 1:23:27.000 being able to get more people interested in baseball in 1:23:27.040 --> 1:23:27.599 the Middle East? 1:23:29.000 --> 1:23:30.840 I think I'd like to get more people interested in 1:23:30.920 --> 1:23:32.320 baseball in the United States. 1:23:32.479 --> 1:23:34.000 With first, well, I. 1:23:34.040 --> 1:23:36.080 Know my son is My son tells me this all 1:23:36.120 --> 1:23:36.679 the time. He goes. 1:23:36.680 --> 1:23:38.640 You know, I'm the only one of my friends that 1:23:38.760 --> 1:23:42.320 actually follows baseball like they're Nats fans, but they weren't 1:23:42.439 --> 1:23:45.720 really Like he's now at school in Dallas, and the 1:23:45.840 --> 1:23:47.639 first thing he did was he wanted to go check 1:23:47.640 --> 1:23:50.439 out a Rangers game. He'd never been. And he had 1:23:50.479 --> 1:23:53.000 the hardest time convincing somebody to go with them to 1:23:53.080 --> 1:23:54.040 a baseball. 1:23:53.680 --> 1:23:56.360 Game because it's it's long, it's you know, to some 1:23:56.640 --> 1:23:59.479 that it's boring. There's not as much action. There's a 1:23:59.520 --> 1:24:01.240 lot more lot into it. I mean, you know, I 1:24:01.360 --> 1:24:06.000 take the George Will you know view toward yeah, base 1:24:06.120 --> 1:24:08.479 I think about every pitch where the fielders are, and 1:24:08.600 --> 1:24:10.840 so it's it's a lot of fun in my mind. 1:24:10.880 --> 1:24:13.919 But we're baseball aholics, you know. But for this generation 1:24:14.120 --> 1:24:17.960 and the recent generations, uh, you know, they want more action, 1:24:19.080 --> 1:24:22.080 more scoring, which is why baseball, you know, went to 1:24:22.200 --> 1:24:24.280 the home run and steroids and looked the other way 1:24:24.320 --> 1:24:26.240 and all this stuff to get more runs on the board. 1:24:26.320 --> 1:24:29.240 But we'll take in the Middle East, I don't know. 1:24:29.360 --> 1:24:31.000 I mean, the Saudi's play it. But that's a bunch 1:24:31.040 --> 1:24:33.599 of a Ramco kids, you know that that's all right. 1:24:34.240 --> 1:24:36.760 It is cricket close enough that you could use it 1:24:36.880 --> 1:24:38.040 as a gateway or not. 1:24:38.560 --> 1:24:42.439 No, I don't think it's a very different game. And 1:24:42.920 --> 1:24:45.280 people look at the history of baseball and they think 1:24:45.320 --> 1:24:47.759 it comes from cricket. It really doesn't. It comes from rounders, 1:24:48.560 --> 1:24:50.680 which is much more like baseball. But I don't think 1:24:50.720 --> 1:24:54.200 I can't even understand cricket, and cricketers can't understand baseball either. 1:24:54.120 --> 1:24:54.920 But I've tried to. 1:24:55.200 --> 1:24:57.840 I've like, you know, uh, you know, sometimes you're just 1:24:57.920 --> 1:25:01.040 traveling overseas and you're stuck a hotel and there's nothing 1:25:01.080 --> 1:25:03.120 to watch other than either a rugby match or a 1:25:03.200 --> 1:25:06.280 cricket match. So you know, I would sit there and 1:25:06.439 --> 1:25:09.320 try to figure it out, and you're just like, well, 1:25:09.439 --> 1:25:09.880 you know, you know. 1:25:09.960 --> 1:25:12.000 While you make an interesting point, show maybe in the 1:25:12.000 --> 1:25:14.960 Middle East and elsewhere, and maybe baseball has more of 1:25:15.040 --> 1:25:18.560 a chance because their favorite sports, you know, soccer or 1:25:18.640 --> 1:25:22.680 football and cricket. You know, they're they're long soccer and 1:25:22.720 --> 1:25:23.519 they're low scoring. 1:25:23.760 --> 1:25:27.160 So maybe, right, and it is about strategy that you know, 1:25:27.240 --> 1:25:31.040 in some ways the mentality of sports, especially in sort 1:25:31.080 --> 1:25:34.040 of Southeast Asia with cricket and soccer, and at least 1:25:34.080 --> 1:25:36.400 with cricket and soccer. I mean you're right, I mean, 1:25:36.840 --> 1:25:40.160 maybe we're stumbling onto something and that they enjoy the 1:25:40.280 --> 1:25:42.320 patience of the success. Yeah. 1:25:42.479 --> 1:25:45.000 We just we just need baseball. I mean obviously it's 1:25:45.040 --> 1:25:47.320 it's very popular in Latin America and in East Asia. 1:25:47.920 --> 1:25:50.640 We just need baseball to enter into Europe and the 1:25:51.160 --> 1:25:53.400 and the Middle East and do what the NFL I 1:25:53.439 --> 1:25:55.200 think has been doing. You know, we of course we 1:25:55.360 --> 1:25:59.680 hold games in Mexico and and uh and have exhibitions 1:25:59.720 --> 1:26:02.240 and Stasi and so forth, or actually had some regular 1:26:02.280 --> 1:26:05.400 season games in Japan this this past year. So you know, 1:26:05.479 --> 1:26:07.679 I think one of the things, one of the things 1:26:07.720 --> 1:26:11.680 which changes everyone's perception in the particular region world out 1:26:11.720 --> 1:26:14.479 of sport, United States, if someone from that region becomes 1:26:14.520 --> 1:26:17.280 a star and it becomes a guiding light like a 1:26:17.360 --> 1:26:20.960 show Atani or you know earlier Japanese players and Korean players. 1:26:21.320 --> 1:26:23.519 We just need some some Middle East. 1:26:23.800 --> 1:26:28.320 You know, we almost had it in you Darvish, Yeah, Japanese, Iranian. 1:26:28.200 --> 1:26:32.240 Yeah, exactly exactly. So you know, if we get one 1:26:32.280 --> 1:26:35.280 of those these these you know, lightning rods that can 1:26:35.800 --> 1:26:39.240 that can act as a uh, you know, a form 1:26:39.320 --> 1:26:43.040 of attraction to your day, and and then you start 1:26:43.080 --> 1:26:46.000 to get youth baseball and stuff like that. May take 1:26:46.040 --> 1:26:47.840 a generation, but that's what it'll take. 1:26:48.120 --> 1:26:49.479 Let me get let me get you out of here. 1:26:49.560 --> 1:26:54.800 On the issue of Islamophobia, okay, because as somebody who 1:26:54.840 --> 1:26:58.120 spent so much time in in Middle East, in the 1:26:58.160 --> 1:27:02.600 Arab world in general, and obviously there's you know, not 1:27:02.760 --> 1:27:05.240 all Arabs are Muslim, and not all Muslims or Arabs 1:27:05.320 --> 1:27:10.160 and so forth. But Islam a phobia is one of 1:27:10.200 --> 1:27:14.360 those phobias that is like anti Semitism. 1:27:14.560 --> 1:27:17.160 It has it's on the left and the right. It 1:27:17.240 --> 1:27:19.800 can be a type of unifier. 1:27:19.439 --> 1:27:21.760 That's not a healthy thing for a democracy. 1:27:24.080 --> 1:27:24.240 You know. 1:27:25.240 --> 1:27:28.519 Just tell me about your experience of sort of learning 1:27:28.600 --> 1:27:33.240 the culture that sort of got rid of or didn't 1:27:33.240 --> 1:27:35.680 allow a phobia to take to take in you. 1:27:36.600 --> 1:27:39.000 Yeah, I think it's because of travel. And this is 1:27:39.000 --> 1:27:42.200 why I'm such a big advocate of travel abroad in college. 1:27:42.800 --> 1:27:45.759 Just to go places and not to an English language place, 1:27:45.840 --> 1:27:48.200 you know, were unit a language. Go someplace that makes 1:27:48.240 --> 1:27:50.519 you feel uncomfortable, Go someplace where you don't know the 1:27:50.560 --> 1:27:54.320 culture or learn the language, immerse yourself, and that's when 1:27:54.360 --> 1:27:57.479 you really start to understand that these people, even though 1:27:57.680 --> 1:28:00.599 they follow in all the religion and have many different 1:28:00.640 --> 1:28:03.960 habits and customs, they're like you in many different ways. 1:28:04.000 --> 1:28:06.000 They want many of the same things. And I bring 1:28:06.120 --> 1:28:09.000 students and I brought groups over to the Middle East, 1:28:09.040 --> 1:28:11.160 and that's what they find out when they really interact 1:28:11.200 --> 1:28:13.080 with people and not just stay in the five star 1:28:13.640 --> 1:28:16.400 resort hotel. They go around to the rural areas, They 1:28:16.439 --> 1:28:19.439 need people. They spend you know, an evening or even 1:28:19.520 --> 1:28:23.200 overnight at some house and they learn about their lives 1:28:23.360 --> 1:28:26.720 and that is the best way to get rid of 1:28:26.800 --> 1:28:32.120 these phobias and all of this misinformation that exists regarding Islam. 1:28:33.240 --> 1:28:36.000 I mean, look, there's we're seeing more Muslim Americans run 1:28:36.080 --> 1:28:38.600 for office over the next ten years, and you're going 1:28:38.680 --> 1:28:41.280 to see it. It is the tension that shows up 1:28:41.439 --> 1:28:44.080 in these communities, and it ends up being it could 1:28:44.080 --> 1:28:46.080 be New York City, it could be Minneapolis, it could 1:28:46.120 --> 1:28:52.280 be La like it's you do in it. It's definitely 1:28:52.360 --> 1:28:55.120 a tougher barrier to break than I think I fully appreciate. 1:28:55.560 --> 1:28:58.559 Yeah, you know, Jimmy Carter said something that was very 1:28:58.600 --> 1:29:02.439 interesting when a bot Warack Obama became president and a 1:29:02.479 --> 1:29:04.880 lot of this latent racism came out because he was 1:29:04.920 --> 1:29:08.000 the first African American president, and Jimmy Carter said, you know, 1:29:08.120 --> 1:29:10.160 this is a good thing. People were afraid. He said, no, 1:29:10.320 --> 1:29:12.600 this is a good We needed to come out and 1:29:12.720 --> 1:29:14.720 only then can we address it. So maybe all of 1:29:14.800 --> 1:29:18.000 these things, more Muslims becoming involved in the community. Yes, 1:29:18.160 --> 1:29:22.479 it's causing some distress intentions and people are afraid of this, that, 1:29:22.560 --> 1:29:24.439 and the other thing in sharia law coming in, which 1:29:24.520 --> 1:29:27.640 is ridiculous. Maybe all of this has to happen. We 1:29:27.760 --> 1:29:31.120 need to get through this and have these discussions and 1:29:31.280 --> 1:29:35.400 hopefully through education and reasonable people making reasonable decisions that 1:29:35.479 --> 1:29:36.240 we can get past it. 1:29:36.640 --> 1:29:36.840 Yeah. 1:29:36.840 --> 1:29:39.280 I remember Collin Powell when he endorsed Obama the first time, 1:29:39.360 --> 1:29:42.800 and he said, but his answer to that is lucky 1:29:42.800 --> 1:29:44.400 he's not Muslim, But so what if he was? 1:29:44.960 --> 1:29:46.599 Yeah, yeah, exactly right. 1:29:46.680 --> 1:29:47.000 He tried. 1:29:47.000 --> 1:29:50.080 It was like, why it doesn't if he was, it 1:29:50.080 --> 1:29:51.760 wouldn't matter, right, this is it. 1:29:52.040 --> 1:29:54.680 And there are many Muslims that are as Muslim as 1:29:54.720 --> 1:29:58.360 I am Roman Catholic, which is not very much anymore, right, 1:29:58.479 --> 1:29:59.240 called it's. 1:29:59.120 --> 1:30:01.200 More of a how you. It was more about your upbringing, 1:30:01.280 --> 1:30:03.280 that your prep you now, how you live. 1:30:03.200 --> 1:30:05.439 What type of person you are, these type of values 1:30:05.520 --> 1:30:10.920 and and you know, it just takes understanding, it takes listening, 1:30:11.240 --> 1:30:14.000 it takes empathy, and we're in short supply of all 1:30:14.080 --> 1:30:16.040 these things these days. But hopefully that'll change. 1:30:16.280 --> 1:30:17.879 So you still hang your hat in San Antonio. 1:30:18.520 --> 1:30:21.479 I do, I do, and probably we'll it'll be on 1:30:21.600 --> 1:30:24.360 my grave, my grave site as well, because I love 1:30:24.400 --> 1:30:27.320 it here it's a you know, big city with a 1:30:27.360 --> 1:30:28.360 small town atmosphere. 1:30:28.479 --> 1:30:31.360 I have to say San Antonio, this San Antonio. 1:30:31.040 --> 1:30:35.519 Austin megaopolis that's developing, right, I mean, you know, it 1:30:35.560 --> 1:30:38.960 feels like it's feels very similar to d C Baltimore 1:30:39.400 --> 1:30:41.080 or Dallas Fort Worth. 1:30:41.120 --> 1:30:45.200 You know. Yeah, it's coming together, much more dominated by 1:30:45.320 --> 1:30:47.479 Austin in the last decade than. 1:30:47.439 --> 1:30:50.160 But I feel like, you know, maybe Wemby will change things, right. 1:30:50.320 --> 1:30:52.599 I think so hopefully the team stays here long enough. 1:30:53.280 --> 1:30:56.040 Well, I know, I mean, you know, the Austin desperately 1:30:56.040 --> 1:30:57.960 wants a basketball team. I think they have a better 1:30:58.000 --> 1:31:00.280 shot at getting a baseball team. Like I love the 1:31:00.320 --> 1:31:03.200 idea of San Antonio getting having football and basketball and 1:31:03.280 --> 1:31:05.000 let Austin have the baseball. 1:31:05.200 --> 1:31:07.439 I would have loved San Antonio instead of building their 1:31:07.800 --> 1:31:10.360 recent basketball arena where it is in the East Side, 1:31:10.960 --> 1:31:13.360 to build it like about not maybe not halfway, but 1:31:13.400 --> 1:31:15.599 a little bit more closer on I thirty five North. 1:31:15.800 --> 1:31:19.519 Well, is it that halfway between Austin and San Antonio 1:31:19.600 --> 1:31:20.559 becoming its own city? 1:31:20.920 --> 1:31:23.400 Yeah, San Marcos and le bron Fels. It's it's as 1:31:23.479 --> 1:31:26.479 you said, it's a megalopolis, and that would have drawn 1:31:26.520 --> 1:31:29.600 from both cities, and therefore, you know each team. I 1:31:29.640 --> 1:31:31.519 don't even care if they call it the San Antonio 1:31:31.560 --> 1:31:34.639 Austin Spurs or something. Just right, keep them here, draw 1:31:34.800 --> 1:31:36.640 from both cities, and that would have been great. But 1:31:37.080 --> 1:31:40.240 now we have a proposition going out to being elected 1:31:40.320 --> 1:31:43.000 on tomorrow that will decide whether or not the Spurs 1:31:43.040 --> 1:31:46.920 build a downtown arena. And if it doesn't pass, who knows, 1:31:47.000 --> 1:31:48.280 they may become the Austin Yeah. 1:31:48.360 --> 1:31:50.599 Boy, the timing of that with Wemby on the rise, 1:31:50.720 --> 1:31:52.760 my guess is that probably helps it a couple of 1:31:52.800 --> 1:31:55.559 points I would. I mean, cities usually reject this stuff 1:31:55.600 --> 1:31:56.960 though they don't like taxpayer dotas. 1:31:57.000 --> 1:31:59.560 We don't like it's, especially San Antonio. But you know 1:32:00.040 --> 1:32:01.240 there's in town. 1:32:01.560 --> 1:32:03.400 I'm going to put this on my list of races 1:32:03.439 --> 1:32:04.040 to watch. 1:32:05.280 --> 1:32:07.280 Prop on the proposition A and B. 1:32:07.400 --> 1:32:09.280 They're both key fantastic. 1:32:10.000 --> 1:32:12.400 Hey, Dave, this was great. I appreciate it getting. 1:32:12.160 --> 1:32:14.280 To know you well. I really enjoyed it too, Chuck, 1:32:14.400 --> 1:32:14.640 thank you. 1:32:14.720 --> 1:32:17.200 All right, Well, people should check out the book Dodgers 1:32:17.280 --> 1:32:18.840 to Damascus. Uh. 1:32:19.400 --> 1:32:20.920 It's more of a Middle East book than it is 1:32:20.960 --> 1:32:21.679 a baseball book. 1:32:22.040 --> 1:32:24.240 It is it is I spent a few years in 1:32:24.280 --> 1:32:26.000 baseball and the rest of my life in Middle East. 1:32:26.040 --> 1:32:27.959 So yeah, proportionally appropriate. 1:32:28.400 --> 1:32:30.640 But you know, it's a it's a reminder that that 1:32:30.800 --> 1:32:34.920 sports is part of your education. It's you can't have 1:32:35.040 --> 1:32:38.280 a complete life in some ways, a complete education without 1:32:39.439 --> 1:32:40.479 without sports. 1:32:40.800 --> 1:32:43.439 About sports, I'm having other life experiences. You know, there's 1:32:43.479 --> 1:32:45.679 competition and discomfort and failure. 1:32:46.200 --> 1:32:50.040 So no, it's terrific. Lesson. Congratulations And like I said, 1:32:50.479 --> 1:32:53.240 I I appreciate you exposing yourself because that's what that 1:32:53.439 --> 1:32:55.800 is when you let somebody else write about you while 1:32:55.800 --> 1:32:56.519 you're still alive. 1:32:56.880 --> 1:32:59.680 Yeah, thanks, thanks, Jock. I'm a rep in the end. 1:32:59.720 --> 1:33:02.000 But anyway, David, great to know you. 1:33:02.240 --> 1:33:10.639 Okay, take care of them about well. 1:33:10.640 --> 1:33:13.280 I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I think understanding the 1:33:13.360 --> 1:33:17.120 modern Middle East is going to be almost an every 1:33:17.320 --> 1:33:24.200 day exercise. To be frank, it's let's just say, nothing 1:33:24.320 --> 1:33:27.880 feels permanent still, and I don't think anything will feel 1:33:27.920 --> 1:33:31.919 permanent for some time. But let's go into the podcast 1:33:31.960 --> 1:33:41.080 time machine. So it's the week of November seventeenth through 1:33:41.120 --> 1:33:43.080 the twenty third, and you know what I like to do, 1:33:43.240 --> 1:33:45.680 go back in history and we're just looking at this 1:33:46.320 --> 1:33:49.080 these seven days, and believe it or not, this is 1:33:49.160 --> 1:33:53.160 quite I stumbled onto what is conspiracy theory Week? In 1:33:53.240 --> 1:34:00.160 American history? Three moments in particular have anniversaries this week. 1:34:01.120 --> 1:34:05.760 The Jonestown massacre, the kool Aid drinking November. 1:34:05.439 --> 1:34:06.720 Eighteenth, nineteen seventy eight. 1:34:07.479 --> 1:34:10.759 There's, of course, the jfk assassination November twenty second, nineteen 1:34:10.800 --> 1:34:14.479 sixty three, and the eighteen and a half minute gap 1:34:14.600 --> 1:34:18.000 in the Nixon tapes was revealed on November twenty first, 1:34:18.120 --> 1:34:23.679 nineteen seventy three, three events that on their own would 1:34:23.680 --> 1:34:27.879 be enough to bend the country's imagination, but together, stacked 1:34:27.920 --> 1:34:30.519 on the same week of the calendar, I think they 1:34:30.600 --> 1:34:33.160 tell us something a bit more profound about why Americans 1:34:33.240 --> 1:34:38.240 believe conspiracies and why those beliefs are so durable. And 1:34:38.360 --> 1:34:40.640 by the way, this is also the same energy right 1:34:40.680 --> 1:34:44.120 now fueling our current national fixation on the Epstein files, 1:34:45.120 --> 1:34:49.880 where the fantastical spreads faster than any known fact. But 1:34:49.960 --> 1:34:53.640 we only have one type of person to blame, the 1:34:53.760 --> 1:34:56.880 elected American elected official, right, So let's get to the 1:34:56.920 --> 1:35:00.120 time machine. So we're going to start with Jonestown. That's 1:35:00.120 --> 1:35:04.519 when conspiracy thinking became catastrophic. It's November. We're going to 1:35:04.600 --> 1:35:08.200 go back to November eighteenth, nineteen seventy eight in Jonestown. Now, 1:35:08.200 --> 1:35:10.639 a lot of people think of Jonestown as a cult tragedy, 1:35:10.680 --> 1:35:12.920 and it is, but it's also the story of how 1:35:12.960 --> 1:35:18.719 a closed information system can destroy a human judgment. Jim Jones, 1:35:19.080 --> 1:35:22.960 the cult leader, didn't just isolate his followers physically. He 1:35:23.120 --> 1:35:28.120 isolated them psychologically, emotionally, and informationally. He convinced them that 1:35:28.200 --> 1:35:30.880 outsiders were coming to kill them. He convinced them that 1:35:30.960 --> 1:35:34.360 only he understood the truth. He convinced them that everyone else, 1:35:34.439 --> 1:35:37.840 from the media to the US government was lying. Perhaps 1:35:37.880 --> 1:35:41.439 he alone could fix it. But I digress. But here's 1:35:41.479 --> 1:35:44.960 the terrifying part. The more erratic Jones became, the more 1:35:45.040 --> 1:35:49.840 his followers trusted him. Because once you buy into total 1:35:50.800 --> 1:35:54.439 this sort of total narrative, once you build your identity 1:35:54.560 --> 1:36:01.519 around a conspiratorial worldview, facts are no longer persued. Facts 1:36:01.600 --> 1:36:07.519 become evidence of the conspiracy against you. Jonestown is not 1:36:07.600 --> 1:36:12.120 a government conspiracy. It's the consequence of conspiratorial thinking, and 1:36:12.240 --> 1:36:16.000 it becomes a template, decades before social media for how 1:36:16.040 --> 1:36:20.439 a charismatic figure can sever followers from reality and create 1:36:20.479 --> 1:36:24.920 a world where the fantastical is accepted without question. It's 1:36:24.960 --> 1:36:28.760 why QAnon didn't surprise psychologists. It's why people fall for 1:36:28.920 --> 1:36:33.800 online calls. Jonestown is a modern cautionary tale of what 1:36:33.920 --> 1:36:39.440 happens when people choose narrative over truth. My god, imagine 1:36:39.720 --> 1:36:45.120 how big jonestown might have gotten with social media. All right, 1:36:45.200 --> 1:36:51.640 let's to the second, the second big conspiratorial event in 1:36:51.840 --> 1:36:55.559 our timeline this week, the conspiracy the public never accepted 1:36:55.680 --> 1:36:58.320 fourteen years earlier, the same week, November twenty second, nineteen 1:36:58.360 --> 1:37:03.000 sixty three, John is assassinated in Dallas. If Jonestown shows 1:37:03.040 --> 1:37:05.880 what happens when people buy into a false conspiracy, the 1:37:06.000 --> 1:37:09.639 JFK assassination shows what happens when the official story fails 1:37:09.720 --> 1:37:15.759 to convince the public. The Warren Report was assembled very quickly. 1:37:17.720 --> 1:37:21.000 The evidence was confusing. The single bullet theory sounded well, 1:37:21.200 --> 1:37:25.040 pretty implausible to the average American, and the result was 1:37:25.080 --> 1:37:28.080 a permanent fracture in public trust. In fact, I always 1:37:28.120 --> 1:37:30.120 go back. I mean, if you look at the original 1:37:30.360 --> 1:37:33.640 sin of when did you know? If you look at 1:37:33.680 --> 1:37:36.439 baby boomers today, right, they grew up with this, This 1:37:36.720 --> 1:37:40.559 was their coming of age. Moment was government they believed 1:37:40.720 --> 1:37:43.920 lying to them about what happened to their president, right, 1:37:44.240 --> 1:37:47.439 And then just about every subsequent generation would have a 1:37:47.560 --> 1:37:50.439 little bit more of the government lion to them, and 1:37:50.560 --> 1:37:54.200 we'd chip away, chip away, chip away. But this was 1:37:54.240 --> 1:37:58.320 a big one because the generation before the Baby Boomers 1:37:58.640 --> 1:38:02.559 trusted their government. But for millions of Americans, JFK's death 1:38:02.640 --> 1:38:05.880 marks the moment when they stopped believing the government reflexively 1:38:06.400 --> 1:38:10.280 and started believing the government selectively, not because they wanted 1:38:10.320 --> 1:38:13.080 a conspiracy, but because the government couldn't explain the tragedy 1:38:13.120 --> 1:38:17.040 in a way that felt complete, transparent, or sufficiently humble. 1:38:18.240 --> 1:38:22.320 This is where CIA theory is, mafia theories, castro theories, 1:38:22.560 --> 1:38:27.519 LBJ theories, deep state theories. They all began here. But 1:38:27.640 --> 1:38:33.320 the more important important point is this after JFK, Americans 1:38:33.360 --> 1:38:35.840 no longer needed evidence for conspiracy. 1:38:36.520 --> 1:38:37.479 They only needed doubt. 1:38:39.080 --> 1:38:42.920 JFK didn't create the conspiracy culture, but it created the 1:38:43.000 --> 1:38:47.920 psychological conditions for the next event that did. And that 1:38:48.040 --> 1:38:50.960 brings us to a year that still feels like a wound. 1:38:51.000 --> 1:38:55.040 It's nineteen seventy three, the Nixon tape gap. The conspiracy 1:38:55.160 --> 1:38:57.320 that was well was a conspiracy. 1:38:57.320 --> 1:38:57.760 It was true. 1:38:58.120 --> 1:39:02.639 Two weeks before Thanksgiving, No First, nineteen seventy three, America 1:39:02.760 --> 1:39:04.719 learns that there is an eighteen and a half minute 1:39:04.840 --> 1:39:07.920 gap in one of Nixon's Oval office tapes, the very 1:39:08.000 --> 1:39:10.040 tape that might have shown what he knew about Watergate. 1:39:11.240 --> 1:39:14.880 This is the moment that permanently rewires the American brain. 1:39:15.400 --> 1:39:18.320 After years of being told trust us, after years of 1:39:18.360 --> 1:39:22.080 dismissing accusations as partisan, and after years of insisting that 1:39:22.280 --> 1:39:26.280 critics of Nixon were hysterical, here it was a missing tape, 1:39:27.080 --> 1:39:32.639 not metaphorically literally an erased tape, Thank you, Rosemary Woods. 1:39:33.680 --> 1:39:37.240 And the White House explanation was so implausible secretaries accidentally 1:39:37.360 --> 1:39:42.120 leaning on pedals fingers slipping, that it practically invited conspiracy. 1:39:43.120 --> 1:39:45.280 The lesson for the American public was brutal and simple. 1:39:45.400 --> 1:39:48.840 Sometimes the conspiracy theory is true, and sometimes the cover 1:39:49.000 --> 1:39:52.479 up is even dumber than the crime. And once that happens, 1:39:52.520 --> 1:39:56.200 once government credibility is broken in this specific way, you 1:39:56.240 --> 1:39:58.439 don't get it back through press releases, you don't get 1:39:58.439 --> 1:40:00.840 it back through official investigation, and you don't even get 1:40:00.840 --> 1:40:04.040 it back through prosecutions. And of course we never did 1:40:04.160 --> 1:40:08.479 prosecute you know, I think when I first started my 1:40:08.560 --> 1:40:12.439 time cast time machine, one of the I started with 1:40:12.600 --> 1:40:17.880 the pardon, with Ford's pardon and a mistake. I think 1:40:18.000 --> 1:40:21.240 now we see that was clearly I don't think it's 1:40:21.439 --> 1:40:23.559 it's even a close call anymore, that that was clearly 1:40:23.600 --> 1:40:29.120 a mistake, because we never did get justice for what 1:40:29.360 --> 1:40:33.800 was done. But Watergate taught Americans that powerful people sometimes lie, 1:40:34.280 --> 1:40:38.000 and institutions sometimes protect those lies. And once you know that, 1:40:38.560 --> 1:40:42.000 you never unknow it. And then it just sort of 1:40:42.080 --> 1:40:45.600 sits there, and it chips away and chips away, and 1:40:45.680 --> 1:40:48.120 we wonder why we have a government we don't trust today. 1:40:48.640 --> 1:40:49.720 So let's look at sort of the. 1:40:49.760 --> 1:40:56.320 Modern parallel, right the Epstein files, fast forward to the present, 1:40:56.479 --> 1:41:00.120 and conspiracy is the default. It's not the exception. Look 1:41:00.120 --> 1:41:02.479 at this Epstein moment. We're all living through. People assume 1:41:02.520 --> 1:41:06.719 elites lie, people assume institutions are hiding things. People assume 1:41:06.800 --> 1:41:09.120 the truth is always worse, and people assume if there 1:41:09.240 --> 1:41:11.439 is a conspiracy, it's probably bigger and darker than anything 1:41:11.479 --> 1:41:15.960 the government admits. Now, I'm an Ockham's razor person. I 1:41:16.040 --> 1:41:18.719 think if there was something even darker, deeper, we there'd 1:41:18.760 --> 1:41:20.920 at least be a leak about it somewhere, but we 1:41:21.000 --> 1:41:21.640 haven't gotten that. 1:41:21.800 --> 1:41:22.479 But still. 1:41:24.560 --> 1:41:28.920 Conspiracies persist. But it's because of Johnstown, because of JFK, 1:41:29.160 --> 1:41:31.760 because of Nixon, because of IRAQ WMDs, because of the 1:41:31.920 --> 1:41:36.160 NSA surveillance revelations, because of January six. Americans now process 1:41:36.320 --> 1:41:38.920 every new event through a lens shaped by generations of 1:41:39.040 --> 1:41:47.560 government betrayal, government confusion, and partial truths at best. So 1:41:47.760 --> 1:41:49.160 just look at what we did with Epstein. 1:41:49.920 --> 1:41:52.800 Right, the conspiracy theory arrived. 1:41:52.560 --> 1:41:57.519 First, the facts are We still don't have all the facts, 1:41:57.600 --> 1:42:00.479 do we They're arriving later. The public decides what it 1:42:00.520 --> 1:42:04.080 believes before the evidence even begins to land. It's not 1:42:04.200 --> 1:42:06.240 that people want to believe in sane things. It's that 1:42:06.360 --> 1:42:09.479 the factual world is moving slower than the fantastical one. 1:42:11.000 --> 1:42:13.280 We have more information than ever, but we have less 1:42:13.280 --> 1:42:17.000 trust than ever, and in that environment, speculation fills every 1:42:17.160 --> 1:42:20.280 gap instantly. And then you look look at our ridiculous 1:42:20.360 --> 1:42:23.720 algorithms that sort of reward those that have a new 1:42:23.880 --> 1:42:28.439 theory rather than those that have factual information. Right, if 1:42:28.520 --> 1:42:31.439 I were to say, right now, boy, it's got to 1:42:31.520 --> 1:42:36.559 be that Gallaine Maxwell knows the origin story of Malania 1:42:36.680 --> 1:42:41.640 Trump and how Malania and Donald met boy the algorithms 1:42:41.680 --> 1:42:44.320 would go crazy, and this video could go viral because 1:42:44.360 --> 1:42:46.640 I'd say it, because I'd say that I have no 1:42:46.760 --> 1:42:51.519 evidence of this. Okay, I certainly am trying to figure 1:42:51.520 --> 1:42:53.880 out why the president is hiding so much of this 1:42:54.040 --> 1:42:58.760 and why he seems to be so scared of Gallaine Maxwell. 1:42:59.680 --> 1:43:04.120 So your mind wanders, and unfortunately, because of how poor 1:43:04.280 --> 1:43:09.439 government's been about being transparent about things including the jfk 1:43:10.479 --> 1:43:17.800 assassination being frankly exhibit A, how do you tell an 1:43:17.840 --> 1:43:21.479 American not to go down that conspiratorial rabbit hole? This 1:43:21.680 --> 1:43:24.400 is where we are. So what do we take away 1:43:24.400 --> 1:43:27.439 from this in this week in American history? Here's the 1:43:27.479 --> 1:43:30.599 common threat. We are conspiracy prone, not because we're gullible, 1:43:31.000 --> 1:43:34.040 but because our institutions have repeatedly given us enough reason, 1:43:35.360 --> 1:43:37.760 just enough reason to suspect that we're not being told 1:43:37.840 --> 1:43:42.360 the full story. When leaders lie, even tiny lies, they 1:43:42.439 --> 1:43:45.800 leave behind just enough ambiguity for our collective imagination to 1:43:45.840 --> 1:43:50.080 go to work. And when institutions are slow, opaque, or 1:43:50.120 --> 1:43:54.559 even arrogant, doubt becomes a form of self defense. When 1:43:54.600 --> 1:43:57.759 information drips out instead, of flows out. The vacuum fills 1:43:57.840 --> 1:44:01.280 the narrative, and when the officials story doesn't feel complete, 1:44:02.600 --> 1:44:05.600 the unofficial ones become irresistible. So I'll leave you this. 1:44:06.800 --> 1:44:10.439 We Americans can handle plenty of bad news. What we 1:44:10.520 --> 1:44:15.360 cannot handle is missing news. You got to tell us everything. 1:44:16.320 --> 1:44:19.439 Don't hold back, because if you do, if we find 1:44:19.520 --> 1:44:24.000 out and you held back, it is so much worse. 1:44:24.880 --> 1:44:28.200 The more than institutions give us half truths, delayed truths, 1:44:28.280 --> 1:44:34.000 redacted truths, or contradictory truths or alternative facts, the more 1:44:34.040 --> 1:44:38.000 this week in history becomes every week in our political system. 1:44:40.080 --> 1:44:40.600 So there you go. 1:44:40.840 --> 1:44:45.160 Enjoy conspiracy Week in the Todd Cash a time machine. 1:44:45.280 --> 1:44:50.080 By the way, if you're looking for some good jonestown documentaries, 1:44:50.160 --> 1:44:53.360 there are a ton of them out there. They're all fascinating. 1:44:53.400 --> 1:44:55.640 There was a couple recently, I think on Netflix that 1:44:55.720 --> 1:45:01.400 definitely is worth your time. My friend Jeff Morley JFK. 1:45:01.600 --> 1:45:04.880 Fax is a terrific substack. He goes through, He goes 1:45:04.920 --> 1:45:08.880 through all the government releases the way you would want 1:45:08.880 --> 1:45:11.519 a reported to do it. You know, yes, he has 1:45:11.560 --> 1:45:15.439 his theories, but he separates the facts from the theories. 1:45:16.520 --> 1:45:18.120 I wish I had a really good place for you 1:45:18.240 --> 1:45:20.040 to go for all things having to do with filling 1:45:20.080 --> 1:45:22.880 the gaps and Watergate. But in some ways, I think 1:45:25.080 --> 1:45:27.840 I think we've filled we have between Garrett Graft's most 1:45:27.920 --> 1:45:32.040 recent book about Watergate, plus everything Woodward and Bernstein has done, 1:45:33.160 --> 1:45:36.000 we have a pretty decent handle on them. So you 1:45:36.040 --> 1:45:45.400 know what this means. It's college football time. Okay, So 1:45:46.600 --> 1:45:49.080 Miami kept up its end of the bargain, had a 1:45:49.200 --> 1:45:52.559 nice I will say I was pleasantly surprised. There's there's 1:45:52.720 --> 1:45:57.280 nothing like a Hurricane's game when the defense sort of 1:45:57.600 --> 1:46:01.360 sparks things and the pick six early set the tone. 1:46:01.960 --> 1:46:05.240 The offense started to hum. Yes, NC State didn't have 1:46:05.280 --> 1:46:08.720 the best of defenses, but the fact is Miami won 1:46:08.880 --> 1:46:11.759 by a margin that they should win by. They covered 1:46:11.840 --> 1:46:15.719 the spread. I think they doubled actually the actual spread. 1:46:15.800 --> 1:46:19.760 So it was a it was a decisive victory. And 1:46:20.080 --> 1:46:24.000 you know, some things went Miami's way as far as 1:46:24.200 --> 1:46:26.920 you know, teams that needed to lose ahead of them, 1:46:27.320 --> 1:46:31.080 A few teams did. Texas lost, that's a big one. 1:46:31.120 --> 1:46:34.120 They're not you know, they're they're not going to get 1:46:34.160 --> 1:46:36.679 in even a victory over Texas. A and m they're 1:46:36.760 --> 1:46:39.960 not a three loss team, is not yet going to 1:46:40.080 --> 1:46:44.240 make the playoff. A couple other things, Boston College had 1:46:44.240 --> 1:46:48.280 Georgia Tech on the ropes. You know, I certainly would 1:46:48.400 --> 1:46:50.400 like to see Miami be able to play itself into 1:46:50.439 --> 1:46:53.280 the playoff, not having to wait to see if their 1:46:53.360 --> 1:46:56.120 body of work will be considered better or worse than 1:46:56.160 --> 1:46:57.880 the body of work of other two loss teams. But 1:46:57.920 --> 1:46:59.840 I want to get to that here in a minute. 1:47:02.080 --> 1:47:04.160 But for the look in fairness, I think it was 1:47:04.240 --> 1:47:07.800 the best game mim he's played since Notre Dame and 1:47:08.040 --> 1:47:10.680 in South Florida, where two which were probably the two 1:47:10.720 --> 1:47:14.400 most complete games they've played all year. Even the Florida game, 1:47:14.439 --> 1:47:15.960 they didn't play a great first half. It was the 1:47:16.000 --> 1:47:18.559 second half that they sort of put that game away. 1:47:18.920 --> 1:47:21.920 But but Notre Dame, they played three great quarters. They 1:47:22.040 --> 1:47:24.800 let they let Notre Dame sort of make the game 1:47:24.880 --> 1:47:26.479 look like it was a close game. And I think 1:47:26.560 --> 1:47:30.880 this this. You know, they basically were ahead by double 1:47:30.960 --> 1:47:33.200 digits most of the game. Notre Dame gets a lay 1:47:33.280 --> 1:47:36.840 touchdown and so the game looked closer than it actually was. 1:47:38.479 --> 1:47:40.920 But this was a pretty complete game they got. This 1:47:41.080 --> 1:47:43.680 was the last home game senior Day, they got two 1:47:43.720 --> 1:47:47.120 more road games, Virginia Tech and then Pit. And let's 1:47:47.120 --> 1:47:50.240 talk about Pitt because Notre Dame now got to face 1:47:50.280 --> 1:47:53.240 a PIT team that did not chose to play an 1:47:53.280 --> 1:47:56.839 exhibition game. Now, I'm not saying the players that actually 1:47:56.920 --> 1:48:00.600 played in the game didn't play hard. They did, but 1:48:00.760 --> 1:48:03.200 the coaching staff made a decision that they were not 1:48:03.360 --> 1:48:06.360 going to play to win this game. Anybody that was 1:48:06.400 --> 1:48:09.679 fifty to fifty you could play, but you know, they'd 1:48:09.760 --> 1:48:13.519 rather have him rest for the conference their last two 1:48:13.520 --> 1:48:16.280 conference games, which are Georgia Tech and Miami. They chose 1:48:16.360 --> 1:48:19.080 to do that. The coach went public earlier in the 1:48:19.160 --> 1:48:22.479 week and said, it doesn't this game was meaningless to them. 1:48:22.800 --> 1:48:25.639 This was akin to a preseason game, an exhibition game. 1:48:25.680 --> 1:48:27.840 They could lose by one hundred, it didn't matter. Their 1:48:27.920 --> 1:48:30.400 path to a playoff did not go through Notre Dame. 1:48:30.640 --> 1:48:32.880 Their path to the playoff went through making it to 1:48:32.920 --> 1:48:35.720 the ACC Conference title game. And if they went out, 1:48:35.880 --> 1:48:39.280 they will have a place in the title game, which 1:48:39.360 --> 1:48:42.160 brings me to and then, by the way, same thing 1:48:42.400 --> 1:48:44.920 just happened a week earlier with Notre Dame when they 1:48:44.920 --> 1:48:47.560 played Navy. When Navy decided not to play one of 1:48:47.600 --> 1:48:51.720 their quarterbacks in that game, Horvat saving him because he 1:48:51.760 --> 1:48:54.120 had been somewhat he'd been dinged up a little bit. 1:48:54.560 --> 1:48:57.000 They wanted to basically give him a week off before 1:48:57.080 --> 1:49:00.479 their conference game against South Florida. By the way, that 1:49:00.800 --> 1:49:03.200 was a terrific game. I watched a lot of that 1:49:03.320 --> 1:49:07.080 game that was in my multibox. That was a fun 1:49:07.160 --> 1:49:09.759 game to watch, and it was a shootout and somehow 1:49:09.840 --> 1:49:15.760 South Florida couldn't stop Navy very often. And Navy won 1:49:15.840 --> 1:49:17.600 that game, and they still have a path to the 1:49:17.640 --> 1:49:22.599 college football playoff again through the Group of five playoff slot. Again, 1:49:22.680 --> 1:49:26.040 the Notre Dame game was meaningless to them in their 1:49:26.080 --> 1:49:27.040 attempt to get. 1:49:26.960 --> 1:49:27.679 To the playoff. 1:49:29.439 --> 1:49:32.080 So now Notre Dame and this, you know, I saw 1:49:32.160 --> 1:49:35.800 that ESPN was promoting this win on Pitt as if 1:49:35.840 --> 1:49:38.640 it was an impressive win that hey, they they had. 1:49:38.880 --> 1:49:41.519 They made it part of their ticker lead, and they 1:49:41.600 --> 1:49:44.000 made it seem as if that this they played an 1:49:44.040 --> 1:49:47.800 exhibition game. Pitt did not take this game seriously. And 1:49:47.960 --> 1:49:50.360 I do think the College Football Committee, if there, if 1:49:50.439 --> 1:49:52.920 this committee is serious, and I am I am a 1:49:53.000 --> 1:49:56.439 huge skeptic. Given that three years in a row, they 1:49:56.520 --> 1:49:59.080 have made decisions that were not about football teams that 1:49:59.120 --> 1:50:02.320 were instead about what ESPN wanted or what the SEC wanted, 1:50:02.560 --> 1:50:06.320 which maybe one and the same. Right, we go back 1:50:06.360 --> 1:50:08.160 to the decision not to put Florida State in the 1:50:08.439 --> 1:50:11.400 end of the playoff when they were undefeated after winning 1:50:11.400 --> 1:50:14.080 their conference title game, and they just chose not to 1:50:14.120 --> 1:50:19.160 put Florida State in. Right. So, if you're wondering why 1:50:19.720 --> 1:50:24.080 I have have been so hard on ESPN and the 1:50:24.200 --> 1:50:27.000 SEC about this, is because not that they might do this, 1:50:27.160 --> 1:50:30.719 because they've already done it once and then they arguably 1:50:30.800 --> 1:50:34.000 did it last year. Miami absolutely belonged in that playoff 1:50:34.040 --> 1:50:35.479 and they chose not to put Miami in because they 1:50:35.479 --> 1:50:37.000 didn't want to put in a third ACC team. 1:50:37.479 --> 1:50:39.439 They have decided the ACC isn't. 1:50:39.240 --> 1:50:42.200 Worthy of having two or three teams on any given year. 1:50:43.960 --> 1:50:47.400 That's just a decision they make, period. There is not 1:50:47.720 --> 1:50:50.439 I would argue, not as many metrics that would actually 1:50:50.560 --> 1:50:55.519 argue for that than others want to say. But this 1:50:55.760 --> 1:50:57.519 is the decision, yes, or they're not going to put 1:50:57.560 --> 1:51:01.439 in two Big twelve teams, and they're gonna try really 1:51:01.479 --> 1:51:04.360 hard not to put in two ACC teams. We'll see 1:51:04.520 --> 1:51:09.080 if Miami can sort of force the envelope. But explain 1:51:09.120 --> 1:51:10.840 to me, I mean to me, if you were to 1:51:11.000 --> 1:51:13.760 treat Notre Dame as sort of instead of knowing that 1:51:13.840 --> 1:51:15.720 it was Notre Dame. And I just gave you the 1:51:15.800 --> 1:51:19.400 profile of team A, Team B, Team C, Team D. Right, 1:51:20.200 --> 1:51:22.439 there is no way Notre Dame is a playoff team. 1:51:22.840 --> 1:51:25.080 They don't have a good Their best win is USC, 1:51:25.640 --> 1:51:27.640 who may or may not be a competitor for a 1:51:27.640 --> 1:51:31.639 playoff spot. And then two of their victories are against 1:51:31.680 --> 1:51:35.160 teams that chose essentially to pull some of their starters 1:51:36.200 --> 1:51:39.599 so that they didn't face the toughest version of PITT. 1:51:39.720 --> 1:51:42.960 Miami's going to face the toughest version of PITT. They 1:51:43.000 --> 1:51:45.759 didn't face the toughest version of Navy. South Florida faced 1:51:45.760 --> 1:51:50.400 the toughest version of Navy. So you know, I I 1:51:51.560 --> 1:51:54.880 that that should matter if the head to head isn't 1:51:54.920 --> 1:51:57.880 going to matter. Now, obviously the most important thing ought 1:51:57.920 --> 1:52:00.160 to be the head to head. Notre Dame loses to 1:52:00.200 --> 1:52:02.240 Miami and they're both ten and two, it's obvious what 1:52:02.760 --> 1:52:06.400 any actual tie breaking scenario in any other league, the 1:52:06.560 --> 1:52:08.160 first tiebreaker is head to head. 1:52:09.400 --> 1:52:10.280 Now they don't. 1:52:10.560 --> 1:52:13.759 There is no there are no rules, right, this committee 1:52:13.800 --> 1:52:16.960 has never said what the metrics are to get into 1:52:17.000 --> 1:52:20.960 the playoff. They don't release a criteria. You know what 1:52:21.040 --> 1:52:24.040 that means, because they make up the criteria when they 1:52:24.240 --> 1:52:28.040 when it suits them. Right, If if it's easier to 1:52:28.320 --> 1:52:30.120 make a case for a team to get in because 1:52:30.160 --> 1:52:32.240 of their losses, they'll say, hey, they have great losses. 1:52:32.479 --> 1:52:35.840 And if it's easier to make a case for a 1:52:35.880 --> 1:52:37.439 team to get in because they have great wins, and 1:52:37.439 --> 1:52:41.320 they'll say, hey, they have great wins. Right, But they 1:52:41.400 --> 1:52:44.960 don't seem to have a standardized metric on what matters 1:52:45.080 --> 1:52:50.320 more wins or losses when you're trying to differentiate between 1:52:50.760 --> 1:52:52.960 a ten and two team or three ten and two teams. 1:52:53.000 --> 1:52:54.559 In fact, we're gonna have a lot of this, right, 1:52:54.600 --> 1:52:56.640 You're gonna have You may have ten and two Oklahoma, 1:52:57.080 --> 1:53:00.280 ten and two Notre Dame, ten and two, Alabama, uh 1:53:00.479 --> 1:53:02.280 and ten into in Miami. And let's just take a 1:53:02.320 --> 1:53:06.439 look at this. Okay, Alabama, one of their losses is 1:53:06.479 --> 1:53:08.280 a team Miami beat. Do you think that's going to 1:53:08.360 --> 1:53:10.760 matter to the committee. I'm not naive. I know it's 1:53:10.760 --> 1:53:12.640 not going to matter. I'll give Alabama this. They have 1:53:12.720 --> 1:53:15.559 the best win of the four because Alabama beat Georgia, 1:53:16.479 --> 1:53:23.840 so they will get credit for that. Oklahoma has now 1:53:23.960 --> 1:53:28.320 Alabama is their best win, right They lost to Texas, 1:53:28.720 --> 1:53:31.679 a team that Florida beat, a team that Miami whipped 1:53:32.960 --> 1:53:37.519 before Florida was giving up okay, before the whole firing 1:53:37.600 --> 1:53:40.479 and all that business. And then of course when you 1:53:40.560 --> 1:53:46.240 compare Miami Notre Dame, Miami beat Notre Dame. Obviously I'm 1:53:46.280 --> 1:53:49.280 singling those four teams out because I am that if 1:53:49.320 --> 1:53:51.439 they all four ten and two and there's three slots 1:53:51.439 --> 1:53:54.880 for those four teams, I know this committee is going 1:53:54.920 --> 1:53:58.120 to try to keep Miami out. And if you looked 1:53:58.120 --> 1:54:00.479 at him in a blind survey, Miami argue at believest 1:54:01.040 --> 1:54:02.880 the second best of those four. If you're going to 1:54:02.960 --> 1:54:06.360 do that, let alone third or fourth. 1:54:08.000 --> 1:54:10.880 So I all I am. 1:54:11.439 --> 1:54:14.120 I want to try to give the assume that some 1:54:14.200 --> 1:54:17.000 people on this committee take their job seriously and are 1:54:17.160 --> 1:54:19.960 simply trying to get the best teams. The fact is 1:54:20.080 --> 1:54:24.320 Miami's probably got one of the three best rosters in 1:54:24.400 --> 1:54:29.639 the nation, easily, the combination best offensive and defensive lines 1:54:29.680 --> 1:54:34.720 going for whatever reason, the committee decided to overly punish 1:54:34.800 --> 1:54:39.440 Miami for losing a gamed SMU on the road. They 1:54:39.480 --> 1:54:42.040 didn't punish him as much for the first loss to Louisville, 1:54:42.040 --> 1:54:44.080 but they punished him a lot for that SMU loss. 1:54:44.280 --> 1:54:49.320 It was a way over punishments in this idea that 1:54:49.480 --> 1:54:55.520 when you lose somehow should should matter. And I know 1:54:55.600 --> 1:54:57.800 this has always sort of been out there because of 1:54:57.920 --> 1:55:01.280 the of the screwyway college football work. But again, in 1:55:01.360 --> 1:55:05.320 the NFL, your record's your record, and if there's a tiebreaker, 1:55:05.360 --> 1:55:10.720 it doesn't matter when that game happened. Right. The head 1:55:10.760 --> 1:55:11.720 to head is the head to head. 1:55:14.000 --> 1:55:16.720 So look, Mimi's got to do its part. 1:55:17.680 --> 1:55:20.800 Yes, I'm still you know, you know, the irony is 1:55:20.840 --> 1:55:25.000 that Miami should be undefeated, shouldn't have lost either one 1:55:25.000 --> 1:55:30.120 of those games. Sort of coach farted those games away, arguably, 1:55:32.760 --> 1:55:35.040 and they were both winnable even at the very end, 1:55:35.760 --> 1:55:38.480 but they got coach farted away. I think I'm gonna 1:55:38.480 --> 1:55:43.000 try to use that term going forward, coach farting. But 1:55:43.080 --> 1:55:45.640 we'll see what the committee does. But the thing that 1:55:45.760 --> 1:55:48.680 I that I want to see whether this committee is 1:55:48.760 --> 1:55:51.720 taking itself seriously at all, is the fact that Notre 1:55:51.800 --> 1:55:56.680 Dame has two teams on their schedule that decided not 1:55:56.960 --> 1:56:01.400 to play to one, and this is the look Notre 1:56:01.480 --> 1:56:03.760 Dame should be ding for not being in a conference 1:56:04.680 --> 1:56:09.160 playing conference games. The stakes are higher when you don't 1:56:09.240 --> 1:56:12.680 have a conference game, there's no stakes. Yes, the stakes 1:56:12.680 --> 1:56:17.200 are higher, they have to keep winning, but the conference 1:56:17.280 --> 1:56:22.000 game is so much more high pressure. And whether your 1:56:22.080 --> 1:56:25.960 conference road game or hosting a team that just you 1:56:26.040 --> 1:56:28.320 would make their season if they beat you, which is 1:56:28.560 --> 1:56:31.560 just about every team Miami plays in the ACC. Okay, 1:56:32.000 --> 1:56:34.280 you know what Miami doesn't do. They don't storm fields 1:56:34.320 --> 1:56:37.240 because when you win national titles, you don't worry about 1:56:37.320 --> 1:56:40.800 storming a field because because it isn't a big deal 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:42.960 to you until you actually win the whole thing. But 1:56:43.080 --> 1:56:45.080 I tell you, I've been to plenty of Miami games 1:56:45.080 --> 1:56:47.240 where the other team storms the field because it's a 1:56:47.240 --> 1:56:49.280 big deal of them to beat Miami in a regular season. 1:56:49.480 --> 1:56:52.040 Notre Dame knows this feeling. Plenty of teams when they've 1:56:52.080 --> 1:56:54.520 upset Notre Dame on the road, they storm the field. 1:56:56.320 --> 1:56:59.280 But the fact is Miami is playing more high pressure games. Shoot, 1:56:59.280 --> 1:57:02.440 Oklahomas playing more high pressure games. Us every one of 1:57:02.480 --> 1:57:05.480 the power for because of how important this path to 1:57:05.600 --> 1:57:09.480 the playoff is. These conference games are much more high 1:57:09.520 --> 1:57:10.960 stakes and Notre Dame. 1:57:10.880 --> 1:57:11.720 Doesn't have any of them. 1:57:13.040 --> 1:57:16.720 And so I actually think that Notre Dame not the 1:57:16.840 --> 1:57:18.840 arrogance of Notre Dame not being in a conference and 1:57:18.960 --> 1:57:22.680 still wanting to be treated equally compared to what everybody 1:57:22.720 --> 1:57:25.920 else has to go through with these conference schedules. I 1:57:26.000 --> 1:57:31.839 actually think that these athletic directors that are on this committee, 1:57:32.560 --> 1:57:35.840 as much as they want to, you know, do whatever 1:57:35.880 --> 1:57:40.160 they have to do for ESPN for the ESPN Invitational here, 1:57:40.800 --> 1:57:44.880 at the same time, are irritated that Notre Dame doesn't 1:57:44.920 --> 1:57:51.200 have to go through this conference business. So at a minimum, 1:57:51.400 --> 1:57:54.600 Rhys Davis, please ask whoever's going to be that I 1:57:54.640 --> 1:57:56.960 think it's now the Arkansas ad who is going to 1:57:56.960 --> 1:58:00.800 be the spokesperson for the committee. Please ask them whether 1:58:02.000 --> 1:58:05.839 the committee is going to essentially downgrade the two victories 1:58:06.400 --> 1:58:09.200 that Notre Dame had over Navy and pit They should 1:58:09.240 --> 1:58:12.720 be downgraded. They did not face they faced an exhibition. 1:58:13.240 --> 1:58:16.360 They faced two teams that treated the game as an exhibition. 1:58:17.240 --> 1:58:19.680 I'm not saying the players themselves did, but the coaching 1:58:19.720 --> 1:58:22.240 staff did. And when you say you don't care if 1:58:22.280 --> 1:58:25.320 you win the game, you know your players hear it. 1:58:29.720 --> 1:58:32.080 So when you're comparing not every ten and two record 1:58:33.000 --> 1:58:36.240 should be treated the same. And I think clearly here 1:58:37.680 --> 1:58:41.160 Notre Dame should be the one that's in much bigger 1:58:41.240 --> 1:58:43.880 trouble in their playoff path right now because they have 1:58:44.040 --> 1:58:46.680 teams that are not taking the Notre Dame game that 1:58:46.800 --> 1:58:50.720 seriously anymore because of how important now the conference pathway is. 1:58:54.560 --> 1:58:57.280 I have to say a few other notes on what 1:58:57.400 --> 1:59:00.560 I saw over the weekend. I get more impressed at 1:59:00.560 --> 1:59:02.640 Texas Tech all the time. I have no idea why 1:59:02.640 --> 1:59:05.800 anybody's ranking Oregon as high as they are. I think 1:59:05.960 --> 1:59:09.440 Oregon I have some questions about Oregon here. You know, yes, 1:59:09.480 --> 1:59:13.960 they have one loss. I'll be this Oregon USC game 1:59:14.000 --> 1:59:16.920 coming up. It's a huge game to see if the 1:59:16.960 --> 1:59:20.600 Big ten can get three teams into the playoffs. But 1:59:20.760 --> 1:59:23.240 Oregon's best win is now Penn State. How good of 1:59:23.280 --> 1:59:28.800 a win is that Oregon needs to blow out USC? 1:59:29.680 --> 1:59:36.200 I think to justify they're certainly to justify how to 1:59:36.320 --> 1:59:39.520 see them at ranked as high high as they are. 1:59:39.960 --> 1:59:41.320 I got to give Texas A and M a ton 1:59:41.360 --> 1:59:43.960 of credit both A and M this week in Indiana. 1:59:44.040 --> 1:59:46.520 Last week, when you should lose a game and you 1:59:46.560 --> 1:59:48.000 figure out a way to win and you're one of 1:59:48.040 --> 1:59:52.240 these undefeated teams, I am in some ways more impressed. 1:59:52.280 --> 1:59:54.160 They didn't play their best game in the first half. 1:59:54.760 --> 1:59:56.960 You know, I gave you that tip last week. I said, hey, 1:59:57.040 --> 2:00:01.160 I had heard that with the new offensive coordinator, they're 2:00:01.200 --> 2:00:03.920 worried about losing Lenora Sellers in the portal. There's even 2:00:04.000 --> 2:00:07.240 rumors at Miami he may end up at Miami that 2:00:07.280 --> 2:00:09.040 they were going to open things up a little bit. 2:00:09.160 --> 2:00:11.320 And boy did they and he looked terrific in that 2:00:11.440 --> 2:00:14.960 first half, and A and M shut him down and 2:00:15.200 --> 2:00:17.240 shut everything down in the second half. So I have 2:00:17.320 --> 2:00:19.640 to say A and M impressed me, and impressed me 2:00:19.720 --> 2:00:21.480 quite a bit. They don't have to win another game. 2:00:22.560 --> 2:00:24.760 They will, but they don't have to win another game. 2:00:24.880 --> 2:00:27.120 I'm very curious, and here's going to be something to see. 2:00:27.560 --> 2:00:28.840 Texas got its third loss. 2:00:29.920 --> 2:00:30.280 What is that? 2:00:30.560 --> 2:00:34.360 You know, what's their intensity going to be like for 2:00:34.400 --> 2:00:36.480 the rest of the season, particularly for the A and 2:00:36.600 --> 2:00:38.600 M game at the end of the year. It's exciting 2:00:38.680 --> 2:00:41.000 to see Texas, Texas, A and M play I think 2:00:41.000 --> 2:00:42.800 they're gonna be playing on Thanksgiving weekend, which will be 2:00:42.880 --> 2:00:49.560 kind of nice that And then there's Vanderbilt. You know, 2:00:49.640 --> 2:00:52.320 there's still They're still sitting there at eight and two, 2:00:52.480 --> 2:00:54.760 and you have Utah sitting there and eighty two, both 2:00:54.760 --> 2:00:58.000 ahead of Miami. So don't don't think I haven't. I 2:00:58.080 --> 2:01:01.640 don't have my eyes on them on that front. I 2:01:01.760 --> 2:01:04.920 have a feeling if Miami takes care of business and 2:01:05.080 --> 2:01:07.720 wins by margin in their last two games, that they 2:01:08.040 --> 2:01:12.800 likely leapfrog, because again, Miami does have better wins I 2:01:12.920 --> 2:01:15.920 think than either of those other two teams. But we 2:01:16.000 --> 2:01:23.320 shall see. All in all, I am obviously nervous, I'm willing, 2:01:23.400 --> 2:01:26.800 I'm trying to will every everything I have and making 2:01:26.840 --> 2:01:29.080 sure Miami is treated fairly in this. That's all I'm 2:01:29.120 --> 2:01:31.680 asking is that Miami is treated fairly, because I don't 2:01:31.720 --> 2:01:34.400 think the a c C in general gets treated fairly 2:01:34.440 --> 2:01:37.120 in this, and frankly, until we have a year where 2:01:37.160 --> 2:01:40.440 they are treated fairly, you're going to have a hard 2:01:40.480 --> 2:01:43.400 time convincing any fan of any team in the a 2:01:43.520 --> 2:01:47.440 c C that the that ESPN or the College Football 2:01:47.440 --> 2:01:50.160 Playoff Committee or the ESPN Invitational Committee, whatever you want 2:01:50.160 --> 2:01:52.960 to call it is going to give an ACC team 2:01:53.320 --> 2:01:59.320 a fair shot. But like I said, I will I 2:01:59.360 --> 2:02:04.040 will pull back some of my critique of the media 2:02:04.120 --> 2:02:08.040 company's influence on this committee if I see some hard 2:02:08.200 --> 2:02:11.720 questioning of the committee chair on this issue of whether 2:02:11.880 --> 2:02:14.920 Notre Dame's two victories over Navy and Pitt ought to 2:02:15.000 --> 2:02:18.320 be downgraded. So with that, I do enjoy trolling my 2:02:18.400 --> 2:02:20.640 friends that are Notre Dame fans on this one. But 2:02:20.800 --> 2:02:25.200 in all seriousness, if I know if somehow this could 2:02:25.240 --> 2:02:27.840 be used as a demerit against an ACC team, this 2:02:27.960 --> 2:02:31.600 committee would be all over it. It's a big name, 2:02:31.960 --> 2:02:34.720 Notre Dame that's doing it. Will they have the guts 2:02:36.120 --> 2:02:39.880 to publicly call out Notre Dame's victories on this one? 2:02:40.360 --> 2:02:42.080 We shall all right with that. 2:02:43.120 --> 2:02:45.960 I hope you even had a good weekend. Hope you 2:02:46.080 --> 2:02:49.080 enjoyed your weekend. I'm glad, since I'm traveling a lot 2:02:49.200 --> 2:02:52.640 this week that all of the airports are up and running. 2:02:53.120 --> 2:02:55.880 I thank those TSA agents and those air traffic controllers 2:02:56.240 --> 2:02:59.080 who have been working without pay. Thank you for doing that. 2:02:59.240 --> 2:03:01.000 Thank you for your surch of us. Thank you for 2:03:01.560 --> 2:03:05.480 at least doing what you can to keep a government 2:03:05.600 --> 2:03:09.440 that behaves so dysfunctionally, a bit more functional and with 2:03:09.560 --> 2:03:10.840 that until I upload again. 2:03:11.240 --> 2:03:13.840 M m hmmm.