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Speaker 1: Hello there, Happy Monday, and welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: The Chuck Podcast. As you can see, I am not

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Speaker 1: in studio. I am traveling. I am in Miami. I'm

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Speaker 1: on a sort of a three city excursion here. I'll

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Speaker 1: be in Miami, I'll be in Charlotte. I got a

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Speaker 1: trip to New York all this week. I just came

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Speaker 1: from Austin. I want to actually give a report on that.

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Speaker 1: It was a participant at the Texas Tribune Festival where

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Speaker 1: I interviewed Wes Moore. Actually, a part of that conversation

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Speaker 1: I'm going to have in the feed later this week,

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Speaker 1: so you will get a full opportunity to hear that conversation.

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Speaker 1: Let me just give a quick rundown of what to

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Speaker 1: expect on this episode. Long interviews with a gentleman by

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Speaker 1: the name of David Lesh. He is the subject of

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Speaker 1: an interesting book that those of you that know me

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Speaker 1: know I'd be a sucker for. It's called From Dodgers

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Speaker 1: to Damascus. It's about a one time major league pitching

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Speaker 1: prospect who got injured in the minors, ended up. I

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Speaker 1: think I think may have had a cup of coffee

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Speaker 1: and the majors. We'll talk about it. We have that

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Speaker 1: conversation and instead became an expert on the Middle East.

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Speaker 1: Hence Dodgers to Damascus. Actually found himself to be in

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Speaker 1: the room with Asad at times and really is an

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Speaker 1: expert in particular on Syria. So really that's a big

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Speaker 1: part of our conversation is sort of where's the Middle

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Speaker 1: East headed? What could the next three to five years

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Speaker 1: look like, and what could the next ten to twenty

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Speaker 1: years look like. It's a terrific conversation, and David Lesh

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Speaker 1: is a wonderful It was a wonderful interview to have,

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Speaker 1: and I do think you'll learn quite a bit. But yes,

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Speaker 1: the hook was the Dodgers in baseball. Right, you go

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Speaker 1: from there to the Middle East? Right?

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Speaker 2: What is there any better home.

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Speaker 1: Than the check podcast for something like that it's also Monday,

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Speaker 1: which means it's time Machine day, and boy, do I

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Speaker 1: have a doozy for you in the Toddcast time machine

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Speaker 1: or we'll go back. This is a fascinating week. Here's

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Speaker 1: what I'll just tell you. This week in history is

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Speaker 1: basically the greatest week. If you're a conspiracy theorist, this

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Speaker 1: is your going to be your favorite week in history.

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Speaker 1: I will just simply leave you with that tease. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I'll take some questions, and let's just say I have

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Speaker 1: a lot to say about college football the playoff, and

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Speaker 1: I've got a whole bunch of advice for the college

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Speaker 1: Football Playoff Committee in the ESPN executives who are going

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Speaker 1: to be making these decisions. Hopefully they will actually care

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Speaker 1: about what happened on the field rather than the machination

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Speaker 1: that they usually care about off the field. But there's

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Speaker 1: a few issues that I think that they have to

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Speaker 1: take up, and we'll see how serious they are about

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Speaker 1: trying to actually find the most worthy teams versus those

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Speaker 1: that they want to just feature in a television show.

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Speaker 2: But with that, let me get started with.

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Speaker 1: A quick little take on where we're at at the

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Speaker 1: moment in our current politics, and where we're at is

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Speaker 1: we have a president who is in the midst of

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Speaker 1: a feeding frenzy, and it is a feeding frenzy that

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Speaker 1: he can't control, and he is flailing. We've been in

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Speaker 1: these positions with him before and he always navigates his

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Speaker 1: way out of it.

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Speaker 2: But this time is different.

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Speaker 1: As I said in our previous episode, we've got a

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Speaker 1: struggling economy, something that he's actually reacting to that's fascinating

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Speaker 1: and I want to get to that also in this episode.

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Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, his.

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Speaker 1: What he's doing and how he's react acting to this

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Speaker 1: Epstein situation is not exactly the way somebody who's innocent

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Speaker 1: would be reacting it is. There's so many aspects of

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Speaker 1: this that are strange when it comes to the way

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Speaker 1: he's treated this story. I mean, I'll go back to

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Speaker 1: something and I know, just set aside everything you know

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Speaker 1: about the story, but think about it in this way.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump has the ability to be as his way

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Speaker 1: out of you know, he lies, you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: the way water flows out of a faucet, right, He's

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Speaker 1: very comfortable doing that, and he'll say whatever it takes

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Speaker 1: today to put off something that may be coming tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: and if he's got to say something else tomorrow, I'll

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Speaker 1: say something else tomorrow. The big head scratcher here on

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Speaker 1: this one is why he has chosen to be so

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Speaker 1: lenient on Glene Maxwell. And to me, this is the

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Speaker 1: part I want to focus on first. And then I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get to what is clearly an over action

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Speaker 1: to Marjorie Taylor Green and Thomas Massey, and I'll get

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Speaker 1: to that in a second, but I keep coming back

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Speaker 1: to this Gallaine Maxwell. And again when you get when

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Speaker 1: we get to my time the time Machine segment today,

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Speaker 1: you'll see where I'm going. But the reason there's an

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Speaker 1: assumption he's lying about something is because there's so many

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Speaker 1: politicians that have preceded him over the last fifty years

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Speaker 1: that have always lied to protect themselves first, and eventually

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Speaker 1: the truth would come out. It just sometimes would take

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Speaker 1: years and in some cases decades. What's a head scratcher

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Speaker 1: about the way he has treated Gallaine Maxwell is he

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Speaker 1: seems to fear her. And the question is why does

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Speaker 1: he fear her? She's in jail number one, number two.

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Speaker 1: She was convicted of essentially helping Epstein traffic underage women.

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Speaker 1: He could easily be wanting to throw the book at her,

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Speaker 1: and instead of putting her in a club fed, he

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Speaker 1: could have been putting her in solitary or making her

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Speaker 1: life even more miserable, rather than trying to be lenient.

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Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, he really wants her not to

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Speaker 1: say anything bad about him, even though if she did,

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Speaker 1: he could just simply say she's lying. She you know

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Speaker 1: that he had a story that was plausible enough that

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Speaker 1: would likely have kept everybody on his side. Right. The

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Speaker 1: story was Epstein was being a creep, He was recruiting.

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Speaker 1: He and Glaine were recruiting women from mar Alago. He

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Speaker 1: had had enough, he kicked him out. And of the relationship,

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Speaker 1: why is he keep pulling Glaine Maxwell back into his orbit?

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Speaker 1: And I'll just say this, there is something else in

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Speaker 1: his life. There is something that she knows about, perhaps

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Speaker 1: as there's something she assisted him with. Maybe it's a

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Speaker 1: relationship he has or had with somebody. But there is

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Speaker 1: something that he has that hasn't come out that he

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Speaker 1: apparently is petrified of that she knows, because there really

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Speaker 1: seems to be no other explanation, because he could be

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Speaker 1: behaving the exact opposite way, and the fact that he

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Speaker 1: isn't is a head scratcher, and someday, maybe sooner, maybe

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Speaker 1: it'll take a while, we'll find out for sure. Maybe

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Speaker 1: she knows the origin story of his personal life, Maybe

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Speaker 1: she knows things that we don't know about the origin

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Speaker 1: story of his marriage. None of us know for sure.

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Speaker 1: His behavior is making it easier to go down conspiratorial lanes,

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Speaker 1: and it's almost like he is he is either purposely

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Speaker 1: doing this just to try to create more fog, which

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Speaker 1: is not totally out of character for him, or there's

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Speaker 1: something that Maxwell has that he just can't he just

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Speaker 1: can't risk, and so he's got to figure out. So

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Speaker 1: we'll see. Look, if he commutes her sentence and releases her,

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Speaker 1: that will be you know, not just one red flag, right,

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Speaker 1: that would be a thousand red flags. But let's go

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Speaker 1: to the other part of this story, which is his

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Speaker 1: decision to punish Marjorie Taylor Green unindorse her. We already

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Speaker 1: know he's sicked his political machine on Thomas Massey trying

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Speaker 1: to primary him. There's an interesting pattern here Trump. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out who is Trump dumped or pulled

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Speaker 1: his endorsement from, or tried to defeat in his side

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Speaker 1: of the aisle who disagreed with him on an issue

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Speaker 1: of substance. Right, he went after those that voted to

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Speaker 1: impeach him after January sixth, right, the ten, and he

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Speaker 1: is he doesn't want to forget those. He's still got

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Speaker 1: vendettas against anybody that voted to convict him in the Senate.

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Speaker 1: Hence why I think there's still no endorsement for Bilcassidy,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think there will ever be an endorsement

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Speaker 1: for bil Cassidy in his Senate see but none of these.

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Speaker 1: He is angrier at Massy and Green for simply voting

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Speaker 1: for transparency on the Epstein files. Then he's as angry

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Speaker 1: at them as he was against the ten House Republicans

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Speaker 1: that voted to impeach him after January six It is,

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Speaker 1: it is if this is this, and the irony is,

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Speaker 1: he's got plenty of ways that they're likely going to

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Speaker 1: kill this. Right, he's got the Senate, we'll see. Look,

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Speaker 1: I think if there's a hundred or more House Republicans

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Speaker 1: that vote with the Democrats on this, and I think

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Speaker 1: there will be that many. I do think that once

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Speaker 1: this vote goes on the record, there's a reason Mike

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Speaker 1: Johnson wanted to try to just release the files as

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Speaker 1: a unanimous consent because he doesn't want a recorded vote.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole bunch of House Republicans that don't want

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Speaker 1: to have to vote against the president on this, but

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Speaker 1: they're more petrified of not voting to release files having

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Speaker 1: to do with a pedophile. So that's one. The second

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Speaker 1: way they could kill it is maybe in the Senate,

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Speaker 1: but if it gets one hundred or more House votes,

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Speaker 1: I think there are thirteen Senate votes. Now maybe leader's

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Speaker 1: Senate leadership just finds different ways never to bring it

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Speaker 1: to the floor. But somebody's going to bring this to

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Speaker 1: the floor. Somebody's going to be able to introduce it,

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Speaker 1: and then it's possible Trump could be to it. But

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Speaker 1: don't underestimate what the Justice Department just did with this

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Speaker 1: when Donald Trump railed ranted on social media demanding that

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Speaker 1: Pam Bondi started an investigation into Democrats in their relationship

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Speaker 1: with Epstein. Because here's what's likely to happen. If there's

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Speaker 1: an open and vestigation that the Justice Department is conducting

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Speaker 1: having to do with people in their associations with Epstein,

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Speaker 1: then it's likely they go to a court and say hey,

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Speaker 1: we can't have these files released because it's currently a

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Speaker 1: part of an investigation. Right there's been a lot of conversation.

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Speaker 1: One of the knee jerk right wing talking points is, well,

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Speaker 1: the Biden folks could have released this, Well, they were

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Speaker 1: in the middle of an investigation, so they couldn't release

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Speaker 1: any files at the time. Now the investigation, in theory

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Speaker 1: is over. But if they're reopening an investigation, then suddenly

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Speaker 1: that likely will mean that will be used. This quote

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Speaker 1: open investigation will be used as saying, hey, we can't

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Speaker 1: release any of this material. It may matter in an

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Speaker 1: investigation and we don't want to have to put all

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Speaker 1: that out earlier. So it's there's a lot of paths

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Speaker 1: I think for this to have these files prevented from

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Speaker 1: being released to the public. There's a handful of ways.

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Speaker 1: You can see how it could be Senate leadership that

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Speaker 1: does it. It could be that President Trump vetos it,

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Speaker 1: or it could simply be the Justice Department goes to

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Speaker 1: court to say they can't because there's an open investigation.

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Speaker 1: Because Pam Bondi agreed to open investigation just to investigate

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Speaker 1: Democrats in their relationship with Epstein.

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Speaker 2: So the point is it's how much, it's.

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Speaker 1: How rattled he is on this. And when he's rattled,

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Speaker 1: this is when mistakes get made, and he's rattled at

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Speaker 1: a time when the other parts of his job aren't

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Speaker 1: going very well. Right, you have, it's pretty clear that

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Speaker 1: this economy is not working for people that don't have money.

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Speaker 1: He is realizing how badly the inflation issue is impacting,

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Speaker 1: particularly his voters, because he's doing something he said he'd

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Speaker 1: never do. He's getting rid of tariffs on food and coffee. Now,

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Speaker 1: what's interesting is how all of his surrogates went out

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Speaker 1: on the Sunday shows and they won't say that they're

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Speaker 1: getting rid of the tariffs, like they keep not trying

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Speaker 1: to use the word, or they keep saying, no, we're

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Speaker 1: lowering costs. Oh, you're getting rid of the tariffs. So

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Speaker 1: the terroifts raised costs. No, the teriffs didn't raise any costs.

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Speaker 1: But we're going to lower costs on food. There's this

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Speaker 1: weird they don't you know. Donald Trump can't ever admit

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Speaker 1: he's wrong. And the fact of the matter is these tariffs.

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Speaker 1: Foreigners didn't pay these fees. You and I did. We've

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Speaker 1: been paying this if you've bought up banana recently, you

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Speaker 1: paid tariffs. So if he's going to sit here and

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Speaker 1: refund this to some people, and we'll see if they're

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Speaker 1: even able to do that, we're going to find out

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Speaker 1: soon enough. He's likely to lose at least some of

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Speaker 1: this tariff authority in court. He probably will try to

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Speaker 1: find another way in the law to try to to

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Speaker 1: try to implement some of these tariffs, and I think

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Speaker 1: there are a few other levers he can pull that

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Speaker 1: he'll be able to do this. But the reality is

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Speaker 1: is that, you know, despite everything he claimed that somehow

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Speaker 1: Americans weren't going to be paying this tax, Americans have

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Speaker 1: paid this tax. We have been getting more tax on food,

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Speaker 1: particularly fruits, vegetables, stuff that comes from overseas, plus coffee.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that they're dropping them shows you that

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Speaker 1: there's a bit of an acknowledgment that number one, prices

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Speaker 1: haven't calmed down, they've gone up, and number two, he's

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Speaker 1: been the reason why prices have gone up.

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Speaker 2: And then finally he's got to deal with this healthcare.

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Speaker 1: Issue and the fact that premiums are everybody now that

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Speaker 1: is on the Obamacare exchanges is seeing that the premiums

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Speaker 1: are about to go up if they were getting some

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Speaker 1: of these subsidies. It looks to me like there's going

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Speaker 1: to be an extension of these subsidies. Is it a year,

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Speaker 1: is it a year with a few extra strings attached.

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Speaker 1: I think all of those things are possible, But I

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Speaker 1: do want to highlight something Rick Scott said. Rick Scott

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Speaker 1: made it crystal clear in a Sunday Show interview earlier

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Speaker 1: that they were not going to repeal Obamacare and that

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Speaker 1: you know, there was not going They were not that

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Speaker 1: they that all insurance was going you know, they weren't

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Speaker 1: going to repeal the pre existing condition issue. Because the

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Speaker 1: only way to save money on this on on these

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Speaker 1: insurance exchanges in Obamacare is if you let insurance companies

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Speaker 1: essentially cherry pick who they get to cover and if

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Speaker 1: you don't have a pre existing condition, and they can

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Speaker 1: shift people with pre existing conditions and make them pay

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Speaker 1: higher rates but have healthy people pay super low rates.

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Speaker 1: That's you know that that's the system we had before,

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Speaker 1: which didn't work for anybody. So the fact that Rick

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Speaker 1: Scott is saying we are not going to do that

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Speaker 1: because you cannot have insurance companies be able to to

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Speaker 1: not accept clients because of a pre existing condition. This

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Speaker 1: is why the system didn't work before. But the talking

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Speaker 1: point that is really bizarre to me, as they're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: they don't want to give this money to the insurance companies,

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Speaker 1: are going to give it to the American people. Well,

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Speaker 1: where do they think the American people is going to

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Speaker 1: spend this money? Can you get health insurance coverage without

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Speaker 1: paying an insurance company? I mean, I guess unless we're

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Speaker 1: going to be doing Medicare.

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Speaker 2: For all, is that the plan.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's going to be the plan that

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Speaker 1: comes from the Republican side of the aisle. But if

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Speaker 1: you don't want to pay insurance companies, who else do

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Speaker 1: you pay? And if you would like to get rid

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Speaker 1: of the insurance companies, if you hate insurance companies, Bernie

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Speaker 1: Sanders would love to talk with you. He's got a plan, Republicans.

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Speaker 1: If you don't like insurance companies and you don't want

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Speaker 1: to pay insurance companies, He's got a terrific idea, just

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Speaker 1: do it straight with the government. So it's a strange

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Speaker 1: talking point that they're using. But the point is they

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Speaker 1: know this is not good politics for them. They know

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Speaker 1: that they have to deal with this, and I think

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Speaker 1: they're going to deal with this soon. But this Epstein thing,

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Speaker 1: I it's a When I was growing up, there was

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Speaker 1: a deodorant commercial for a deodorant called Sure. And this

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Speaker 1: is back when we had aerosol deodorance, and you know

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Speaker 1: that the aerosol deodorance was gross, you know, thankfully, you know,

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Speaker 1: we had such a we were so worried about the

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Speaker 1: ozone layer back then. They finally got rid of those things,

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Speaker 1: which is there's a whole bunch of us that are

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Speaker 1: thankful for that. That was just gross. You walk into

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Speaker 1: a gem and you'd always smell that sort of aerosol deodorant.

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Speaker 1: It was disgusting. But the Sure, I always said, never

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Speaker 1: let them see a sweat was sort of the tagline

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Speaker 1: for Sure deodorant. Well, Donald Trump is letting all of

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Speaker 1: He is clearly nervous about all things ups. It is

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Speaker 1: his personal obsession. He is trying to enact political and

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Speaker 1: vendettas having to do with it. He is making Marchie

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Speaker 1: Taylor Green a martyr. He is giving, he is helping

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Speaker 1: get her mainstreamed with independency. She is proudly calling herself,

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Speaker 1: you know, Mago without him, And that's.

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Speaker 2: The thing, like he is not. You know.

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Speaker 1: I do think Thomas Massey, who was a sort of

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Speaker 1: America first Conservative before Donald Trump ever showed up. Margie

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Speaker 1: Taylor Green's beliefs clearly aligned closer with with a conservative

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Speaker 1: that's more in line with Massy than she is with Trump.

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Speaker 1: Trump is always as many a Trump advisor will quietly

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Speaker 1: let me know, he's always the least Mega person in

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Speaker 1: any room you walk into, wherever you go with Maga,

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Speaker 1: Trump's the least Maga. And he's become obsessed with the

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Speaker 1: deal making overseas he's become obsessed with all the money

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Speaker 1: he's making off of his off of his influence in government.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty much the opposite of what the true believers

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Speaker 1: in MAGA, those that did want to go after the elites,

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Speaker 1: who thought the elites were using government to enrich themselves,

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Speaker 1: And what's Donald Trump doing using government to enrich himself.

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Speaker 1: So look, I wrote it my substeck last week, and

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Speaker 1: I think that so far everything is playing out sort

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Speaker 1: of exactly out I sort of was laying it out,

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Speaker 1: and I think we're going to continue to see it.

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Speaker 1: His influence is waning. More Republicans discover every day that

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Speaker 1: he will never be on a ballot again, and just

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Speaker 1: keep an eye on. So he's already gone after Massi

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Speaker 1: and it's not really going that well. Thomas Massey's primary

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Speaker 1: is going is May nineteenth, and that's fairly early in

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Speaker 1: the primary season. There's a lot more though, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have a few states in March, a couple of

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Speaker 1: states in April, but most of the primaries are in June,

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Speaker 1: than a big chunk in August, and are remaining a

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Speaker 1: few in September. If Massi wins, And right now, I'd

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Speaker 1: rather be Massy than anybody else in that Republican primary.

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Speaker 1: He's had a hard time finding anybody. It's yet going

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Speaker 1: to be another reminder that the Emperor is losing his clothes.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to say the Emperor has no clue

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Speaker 1: at the moment, but I think the Emperor is starting

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Speaker 1: to shed some clothes at the moment. And if he

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Speaker 1: is trying to punish somebody and he can't do it right,

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Speaker 1: he already lost one big one with Brian Kemp. And

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Speaker 1: remember why he turned on Brian Kemp. He turned on

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Speaker 1: Brian Camp over January sixth. In the election. He turned

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Speaker 1: on Brian Camp because Brian Kemp wouldn't do an illegal

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Speaker 1: act right, Brian Kemp wouldn't abide by his by Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's wishes. So again this pattern. The only time Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump wants to punish a fellow Republican is when they

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Speaker 1: won't go along with something that just is bullshit. Right.

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Speaker 1: They won't go along on the Epstein files, they won't

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Speaker 1: go along on January sixth, they won't go along on

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Speaker 1: the election. And whether they're it's the only time he

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Speaker 1: turns on folks. He doesn't ever really turn on him

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Speaker 1: over policy. Disagreements. He only turns on him if he

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Speaker 1: thinks other people are going to embarrass them him because

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Speaker 1: because they won't keep his lie up. And when Massey

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Speaker 1: wins that primary in May, it's yet going to be

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Speaker 1: another chink in the armor, and it's going to continue

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Speaker 1: to open the store and everybody is it's just getting

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Speaker 1: easier and easier to separate yourself from Donald Trump, and

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Speaker 1: there's going to be these different lease a little small.

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Speaker 1: The Epstein vote is going to be a step in

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Speaker 1: that direction, and you're going to see one hundred or

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Speaker 1: more House members do it. When the Supreme Court rules

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Speaker 1: against his tariffs, you're going to see a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of Republicans suddenly find their free trade spines again, and

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Speaker 1: they'll put out releases talking about following the Constitution. So

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Speaker 1: these little and then you're going to see, you know,

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Speaker 1: as people are upset about the costs rising costs, you're

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Speaker 1: going to see more in Republicans look for ways to

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Speaker 1: potentially separate themselves from the way House, but certainly to

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Speaker 1: more directly appeal to voters, either in different ways to

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Speaker 1: try to get rid of terrorists the lower costs, or

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Speaker 1: to question big tech and what they're doing to raise

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Speaker 1: our electric bills with all these data centers that are

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Speaker 1: going up all over the place. So I do think

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Speaker 1: we are witnessing, like I said before the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the lame ducification of Donald Trump. One other thing before

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Speaker 1: we get to the interview that I want to get to.

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Speaker 1: So I spent Thursday and Friday in Austin, Texas the

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Speaker 1: Texas Tribune Festival.

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Speaker 2: They have it every year. I've been to it a

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Speaker 2: few times.

430
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 1: They asked me to moderate a conversation with Maryland Governor

431
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: Wes Moore. I think I told you I was doing

432
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: that while I was there. I also it kind of

433
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: unofficially became a bit of a cattle call for twenty

434
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: twenty eight presidential candidates on the Democratic side of the aisle.

435
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: Wes Moore was there, Pete Bootagige there, Tim Walls was there,

436
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: Chris Murphy was there. So, you know, while I'm not

437
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: going to sit here and say it was, you had

438
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people looking for twenty twenty eight candidates.

439
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: I think they were there looking for people to fight

440
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: Donald Trump more than anything else. It was interesting the

441
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: various conversations that were had looked. I would say, the

442
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: attendees at the Texas Tribune Festival were folks looking to

443
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: fight Trump. These were folks that are you know, fall

444
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: on the left side of the aisle. They were there

445
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: looking for They're looking for hope, you know, looking for

446
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: a stronger vision in the Democratic Party looking in some cases,

447
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 1: I think many of them probably were a little further

448
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: to the left than probably the average rank and file

449
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: member of the Democratic Party. And like I said the

450
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: wes More conversation, you know, I was intrigued by the

451
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 1: sort of the tone he took. He knew this audience

452
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: was very liberal, and yet he didn't try to play

453
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: to the audience. He really hugged the center lane in

454
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: ways that I didn't fully expect him to hug it.

455
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: He made it clear that, you know, he didn't view

456
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: himself as tied to the Democratic Party. He was a Democrat,

457
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: but that didn't mean he would abide by everything the

458
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: Democratic Party was for. I thought that was an interesting distinction.

459
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: Always a little bit easier for governors to say that

460
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: than any other officeholder, but he went out of his

461
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: way to say that. I thought that was intriguing, and

462
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: I do think it's you know, when he goes through.

463
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: I mean, his military experience is you know, I think

464
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: there's some you know, John Kerrey used to get criticized

465
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: by some who thought that he used his military he

466
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: went into the military for political purposes. I don't care

467
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: if somebody went into the military for political purposes. That

468
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: doesn't bother me. But some people think, oh, you're doing

469
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: it to check a box. That isn't why Wes Moore

470
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: joined the military, and that's what he got in.

471
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 2: You know.

472
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: I I'm not going to sit here and question the

473
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: motive of somebody that chooses to put themselves in a

474
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: position where they could put themselves in harms way because

475
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: they think it'll look good on a political resume. I'm

476
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: not saying some haven't thought about it that in those terms.

477
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: But if you're willing to do that, then I've got

478
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:34,239
Speaker 1: no problem with that. I appreciate that you're trying to

479
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: have a variety of experiences in order to in order

480
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: to be a better leader if you do get a

481
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: shot at being a small, de democratic leader of this country.

482
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: So I don't think it's a huge deal, but I

483
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: do think his military experience a little bit different. Right

484
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: when you join at seventeen and he was already had

485
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,239
Speaker 1: gone to military school. So I just think he I

486
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: don't think he's a conventional liberal Democrat, is my point.

487
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: And I didn't fully appreciate that until you had, until

488
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: you have this longer conversation, I was intrigued by him.

489
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: I thought it was I thought some of his answers,

490
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: his defensive capitalism was quite interesting. Again, later this week,

491
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: we're going to drop this into the feed, So if

492
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: you want to listen to this conversation, you can listen

493
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: to the whole conversation. I actually used it also this

494
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: week in my new sphere, so those of you that

495
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: are a member of Newsphere, you can check out Sunday

496
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: Night with Chuck Codd. That was a big chunk of

497
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: that interview appeared there as well. But there was one

498
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: other thing I wanted to bring up because both he

499
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: and Tim Walls. I saw Tim Wall's conversation. He was

500
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: in conversation with Jennifer Paul Mary, a longtime Democratic operative,

501
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: and I asked both. Jen asked Tim Walls a question

502
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,719
Speaker 1: about sort of what does Trump do well? And I

503
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: asked a question, what does Trump get right? You know?

504
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: To Wes Moore, some version of it and they both

505
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: said the same thing. You know, he acts, it's moved,

506
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: he moves quickly. I think Tim Wall said, he moves

507
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: quickly and he goes. You know one thing Trump does well,

508
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: what Wes Moore said, is that there's always action. Right.

509
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: He doesn't wait around for a commission. He doesn't have

510
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: a committee to study something before trying to implement it.

511
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: A lot of times he tries to implement things even

512
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: when he doesn't have the authority to do it. But

513
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: he's always but the voter sees him trying to do something,

514
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: sees him trying to fulfill a promise that he made,

515
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: even if it's ends up being kind of an empty fulfillment,

516
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: he still attempts to do it. It tells me that

517
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: the next Democratic president is if there's one thing they're

518
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: going to attempt to emulate from Trump, You're going to

519
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: see a lot more signing ceremonies, a lot more public

520
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: signing ceremonies, a lot more executive orders, a lot more

521
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: attempts at doing rather than studying, and maybe even trying

522
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: to do too much rather than looking back like I

523
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: think many in the Obama years do. And wonder was

524
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: that was the two years that he had full where

525
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: he had fifty nine to sixty Senate seats. He had

526
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: sixty for a while, then it was back to fifty nine.

527
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: A fairly large House majority was that did he was

528
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: getting healthcare? Was great? Should he have just kept pushing

529
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: the envelope, tried to get cap and trade, just pushed, pushed, pushed,

530
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: and because no matter what there was going to be,

531
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: they were going to lose the mid terms, no matter what.

532
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: So you might as well have done as much as

533
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: you can. Because what's the lesson Donald Trump has taken?

534
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: Do as much as you can while you can, because

535
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: you're really there or know how long you're going to

536
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: be there. And I think the fact that both Wesmore

537
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: and Tim Walls that that's one of the lessons those

538
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: that's the initial and when they're asked what does Trump

539
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: do well or what does Trump get right? That both

540
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: of them and I don't think they talk to each

541
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: other about this. I don't think either. I don't think

542
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: More the Wall said at first. I don't think More

543
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: heard Tim Walls say this. It didn't really go viral

544
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: or anything like that. So I don't think he's alone.

545
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: And I've heard this from quite a few other Democrats

546
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: that that they get frustrated. They think when you know, well,

547
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: he's he's signing these executors, they're kind of meaningless. Yeah,

548
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: ninety percent of them are meaningless. But the message to

549
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: the voters is he's trying that he's making an effort,

550
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: that he's doing something. Nobody ever wonders whether you know.

551
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: I think it's why Trump's erratic health isn't hurting him

552
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: quite yet as much as it hurt Biden, because Biden

553
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: didn't look like he was doing as much. So then

554
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: you wondered, why is an age doing as much? So

555
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: it is it is. It was just intriguing that that

556
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: was singled out.

557
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: But again I go back.

558
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: My big takeaway from Wes Moore is that he is

559
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: he is definitely not going to be running as a

560
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: mainstream liberal Democrat. I think he is going to be

561
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: running as something a bit different. And those that are

562
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: thinking this is the second coming of Obama, I would say,

563
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: I think it's more likely the second coming of Bill

564
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: Clinton than it is Barack Obama. For what it's worth.

565
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: All right with that, let me sneak in a break

566
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: and when we come back, my conversation with former Major

567
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: League prospect for the Los Angeles Dodgers. David Lesh, who

568
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: ended up a life as an expert on the Middle East,

569
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: hanging out with the assads every once in a while

570
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: in Syria. So with that, let's sneak in the break

571
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: and when we come back, David Lesh, there's a reason

572
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: results matter more than promises, just like there's a reason.

573
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. For

574
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: the last thirty five years, they've recovered twenty five billion

575
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: dollars for more than half a million clients. It includes

576
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing, just hoping

577
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: to get away with paying as little as possible. Morgan

578
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

579
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars,

580
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: which was a staggering forty times the amount that the

581
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: insurance company originally offered. That original offer six hundred and

582
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,479
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred and fifty

583
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So with more than one thousand lawyers across

584
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: the country, they know how to deliver for everyday people.

585
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: If you're injured, you need a lawyer, You need somebody

586
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: to get your back. Check out for the People dot Com,

587
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 1: Slash podcast or Dow Pound Law Pound five to nine

588
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: Law on your cell phone. And remember all law firms

589
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: are not the same, So check out Morgan and Morgan.

590
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: Their fee is free unless they win. Well here at

591
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: the check podcast. When you get a book proposal to

592
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: interview somebody, and the book is called Dodgers to Damascus,

593
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: it's almost as if the publication was trying to identify

594
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: me as the target's interview e as a Dodger fan,

595
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: growing up as a political junkie. Now policy junkie a story,

596
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: and this is a biography. The book itself as a

597
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: biography of my guest today, David Lesh, who is who

598
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: began his studies of the Middle East by being a

599
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: prospect for the Los Angeles Dodgers. Well let him in

600
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: some ways, that's exactly what it was, the dream of baseball.

601
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: Like a lot of aspiring baseball players, injuries can sometimes

602
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: get in the way of a career, and you use

603
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: another part of your body, your brain, to pursue another passion,

604
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: which is what David Lesh did. And it's a fascinating

605
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 1: story and the book is fascinating but sort of lessons

606
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: from baseball to help resolve the Middle East crisis or

607
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: crises plural. So David Lesh joins me now the subject

608
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: of the book. David, welcome to the podcast. It's nice

609
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: to meet you.

610
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: Nice to meet you, too supposed to be. I'm glad

611
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: the book found its way across your desk. That's great.

612
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 3: So let me ask this. What's it like?

613
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it is this. You didn't write the book,

614
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: you participated. It is an authorized biography. That's it's almost.

615
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: Like you're you you you.

616
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: I always say it's sort of it's going to be awkward,

617
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: but it's like you are willing to expose yourself to

618
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: the to the world. And I think when you're when

619
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: somebody writes a biography of somebody that's still alive, right,

620
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 1: You're You're, that's a lot of you got to You're

621
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: You're always being asked to give more and more. What

622
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: did it feel like to read about yourself through a

623
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: third person?

624
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 3: It was weird. You definitely are identifying the awkwardness of

625
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: it for me. If I Catherine Cook, who did such

626
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 3: a wonderful job as an accomplished author, who wrote this

627
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 3: book and She called me one time. She said, David,

628
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 3: I'm having trouble writing the last chapter. And I said

629
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 3: why and she said, because you're still alive.

630
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 1: You know, that's would be my challenge as a writer

631
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: if I had this assignment. You know, you're you.

632
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 2: You want to make a.

633
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: Conclusion about somebody's life or legacy, and if they're still alive,

634
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: how do you word it in a way that doesn't

635
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: make them either feel like you're doing their obituary or

636
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: you're taking a shot at them.

637
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 3: Well, that my wife is over now, you know, I

638
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 3: can't do anything else. But I'm still active and I

639
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 3: have a lot to look forward to, I hope. But

640
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: she did a good job. In fact, the last chapter

641
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 3: is entitled Stay Tuned, which hopefully is a metaphor for

642
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 3: better and bigger things that I can accomplish in my

643
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: life as we go forward. In all in all ways,

644
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 3: but it was a very weird experience, and I was

645
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: compelled to be introspective in a way that you know,

646
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 3: at this age of my life, I didn't, you know,

647
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 3: figure i'd be doing. And it forced me to look

648
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 3: at a lot of situations throughout my life. It was

649
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: interesting to see because she interviewed like fifty sixty you know,

650
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 3: colleagues and friends, family acquaintances, and it was interesting to

651
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 3: see what they thought of me, and which was much

652
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 3: better than that I had anticipated, by the way. But

653
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 3: so it was in a writing experience. It was emotional

654
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 3: at times because I had to revisit some periods and

655
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 3: events in my life that you know, had a great

656
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: deal of impact in positive and negative ways. But it

657
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 3: was really I thought, you know, well done by Catherine.

658
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 3: A very positive experience overall.

659
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what what what's drawn you to become,

660
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: you know, the essentially to do all the scholarship that

661
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: it takes to become a Middle East expert. And I

662
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: always I put experts in quotes because an expert of

663
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: what these days it's almost in some ways you're an anthropologist, right,

664
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: You're a civilization you're trying to understand and what it

665
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: really is is, you know, I have my own opinions

666
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: about how we just don't people don't understand the history

667
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: of the Middle East before nineteen forty eight, Right, that's

668
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: my largest frustration in sort of the coverage of stuff.

669
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: But what drew you to it? Why did you want

670
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: to make this your area of expertise.

671
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 3: Well, I struck out of everything else, chuck.

672
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 2: So, yeah, there you go. There's the dad pun striking

673
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 2: out there.

674
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 3: It is no I think as in most cases, and

675
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 3: what I hope I'm doing to some of my students

676
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 3: as a professor now is I had a couple of

677
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: wonderful professors after I, you know, flamed out at baseball

678
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 3: with the injury, and I went back to undergrad school

679
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 3: and I had two wonderful, wonderful professors. It was just

680
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: pure luck. I was always extendent International relations. Lou Cantori

681
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 3: and Robert Freeman were the two. They were well known

682
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 3: in the field, and they just turned me on to

683
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 3: a subject that at that time, you know, the seventies

684
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 3: early eighties, as you well know, it was not covered

685
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 3: very well or objectively. And so I did the more

686
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 3: I started studying it, and more importantly, when I started

687
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 3: traveling there, I just became enamored with that history, with

688
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: the people and why things you know, went off the track,

689
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 3: so to speak, so much in so many areas in

690
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 3: the Middle East. I wanted to understand that and hopefully

691
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: later on, as I hope I've done in my books

692
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 3: to help explain it to an audience.

693
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: So I have a bit of a snarky sort of

694
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 1: take on when it comes to sort of our what

695
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: I think is our ignorance about the Middle East, which

696
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: is and it comes from being a Jewish American, and

697
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: I'm not a very religious person, but I get I've

698
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: always felt I've never felt as if that part of

699
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,720
Speaker 1: my identity mattered until a whole bunch of other people

700
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: want to tell me it's supposed to matter, and I

701
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: get sort of if I get my back up, I

702
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: joke anytime I hear the word populace, whether it's left

703
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: wing populism or right wing populism, I know the first

704
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: thing they're doing is coming for the Jews. But you know,

705
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 1: I realized in sort of the in the this was

706
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: began before October seventh, but certainly post October seventh, the

707
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: amount of people that didn't understand the Middle East pre

708
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight, and that really the biggest problem we

709
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: had generationally was And then it realized, well.

710
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: How are we taught World War One and World War Two?

711
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: And I think about World War One and we're I'm

712
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: guessing you had a similar grade school experience that I did.

713
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: You're a little bit older than me. But we basically

714
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: I think, you know, probably that fairly consistent education there,

715
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,959
Speaker 1: which was we're taught World War One through the prism

716
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: of World War Two. You know, we screwed Germany too much,

717
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: made him angry and it started the Second War. We

718
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: never talked about the other part of World War One,

719
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: which was the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the

720
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,439
Speaker 1: fact that in some ways, and a couple as I joke,

721
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: a couple of drunk Frenchmen and Brits decided to draw

722
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 1: straight lines and say you get a country you don't

723
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: you do?

724
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 3: You know?

725
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden it's the United States. It's

726
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: left to deal with this mess. Again I'm being it's

727
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: a bit of a snark, but it's it does get

728
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: at what I think is the root issue of our

729
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 1: misunderstanding of a lot of the Middle East issues, which

730
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: is not understanding how it all broke apart after the

731
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire.

732
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. My pet peeve is that Americans in general, Westerners,

733
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 3: especially Americans, have had this telescopic view toward the Middle East,

734
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 3: and we need a microscopic view. And the telescopic view

735
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 3: is quite prejudiced and biased in many different directions.

736
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: Incomplete, absolutely and complete is the best description I think.

737
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you need that microscopic view. But in today's

738
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 3: especially as time has gone on, in today's media, as

739
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 3: you will know, and sound bites and social media and

740
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 3: so forth pull on information in small bites and small packets,

741
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: and even foreign leaders, you know, they want that one

742
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 3: page brief less than one page brief instead of reading

743
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 3: a whole executive summary, even of a particular problem, especially

744
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 3: a country like the United States, which has so many

745
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: issues all over the world and responsibilities and objectives. For

746
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 3: a president to focus on one single thing and really

747
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 3: understand it is very, very unusual unless they have a

748
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 3: background in it. But yeah, I mean the Ottoman Empire

749
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 3: and you talk about the two drunk frenchmen that Jordan

750
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 3: was always said a joke was that Winston Churchill had

751
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 3: a hiccup and drew that part of Jordan that sticks out.

752
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 3: But the reality is it was to connect pipelines from

753
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 3: the Version Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea. So there was

754
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 3: all strategic reasons behind all of this. And one of

755
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 3: the things people understand, I think the British and the

756
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 3: French obviously allied on the Tient powers in World War One,

757
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 3: but they always saw each other as potential enemies.

758
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: After the war, they were competing for reasons in the

759
00:43:58,280 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: Middle least, right exactly.

760
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 3: And so you know, Syke's Pico and all these infamous

761
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 3: secret wartime agreements were always you know, from each side

762
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 3: aimed at the other for what they hope would be

763
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 3: victory and defeating the central Powers, including the Ottoman Empire.

764
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 3: But you're right, I mean, the fall of the Ottoman

765
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 3: Empire is sort of glossed over, and it's the Eurocentric

766
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 3: orientalist view of World War One and what happened with

767
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 3: the artificial divisions in the Middle East.

768
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's interesting.

769
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: This is also this week is the anniversary of Panamanian independence,

770
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: and essentially Panamanian independence came because Teddy Roosevelt cut a

771
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: deal because he wanted to a strip of land to

772
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 1: build the Panama Canal. So they basically created Panamanian independence, right,

773
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: And it reminds me of sort of how the Europeans

774
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: dealt with the Middle East. It's the same way the

775
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: United States has dealt with Latin America essentially for the

776
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: last hundred years, which is what can you do in

777
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: the region for us? Not what can we do for

778
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: you in the region? Is that.

779
00:44:58,080 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: Simplistic view?

780
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: But is that how you you would sort of describe

781
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: sort of the Eurocentric relationship with the Middle East over

782
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: the last hundred years.

783
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought you were going to say, not the

784
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 3: one hundredth year, but the anniversary of the Balfour Declaration.

785
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: As we were to that company too agreements.

786
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 3: But yeah, absolutely, I mean, all countries act in their

787
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 3: own national interests and if they have leverage in terms

788
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 3: of those interests, they're going to exercise that leverage. And

789
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 3: what Israel has done, you know, ever since it came

790
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 3: into being in nineteen forty eight, And what all countries do,

791
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 3: the British, the French, the Americans, the Russians, and without

792
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 3: taking into consideration or very much consideration, the wants and

793
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 3: needs of the local populations other than that which will

794
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 3: feed their own strategic interests. And so's that's very, very true.

795
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 3: And it's you know, the countries in the Middle East

796
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,479
Speaker 3: they lack in many ways of national identity, They lack

797
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 3: the rulers, lack legitimacy. A lot of that goes all

798
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 3: the way back to the artificiality of the heartland of

799
00:45:58,719 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 3: the Middle East.

800
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: We just created archies right out of these tribal leaders.

801
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: Right monarchies and so called Arab republican regimes that act

802
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 3: like monarchies because they want to be. You know, the

803
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 3: Mcadafi and Nassir and Lbark and Osad, they all wanted

804
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 3: to be. They all wanted to be and were in

805
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 3: some cases succeeded by their sons, so they turned out

806
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 3: to be monarchies in effect.

807
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: So who did you have? Which aside did you have

808
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: did you start to strike up her I don't want

809
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: to say relationship, but sort of a conversation with.

810
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was Bisharl Ossad, who came to power in

811
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: two thousand after his father died. And you know, I'd

812
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 3: been going to Syria quite some time, and you know,

813
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 3: I like to consider myself a Middle Eat specialists in

814
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 3: mediaprent areas, but Syria's is definitely my number one specialty.

815
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 3: And I traveled the over thirty thirty five times over

816
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 3: the years, and so I knew I had a pretty

817
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 3: good network in Syria, particularly in mine academics. And when

818
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: Osade came to power in two thousand, he brought academics

819
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 3: into the government, which some thought, as you know, hope

820
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 3: for the future, other things.

821
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, there was a brief period

822
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: where they thought maybe he'll be a modernizer, maybe he'll

823
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: be king using right, yeah.

824
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 3: Exactly, yeah, and or a faisal in Saudi Arabi even

825
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 3: you know, back in the seventies and and you know

826
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 3: he was young. He liked Western music, he liked Western

827
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 3: you know, technological toys. Uh, you know, he was a

828
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 3: computer nerd.

829
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: And everyone was educated in London, right educated.

830
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 3: He received uh you know, he was trying to get

831
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 3: his what is essentially his boor certification ophthalmology in London.

832
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 3: But people have to remember he only spent you know,

833
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 3: two years in London. And even though he liked the

834
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 3: Electric Light Orchestra and Phil Collins and the Beatles, you know,

835
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 3: his upbringing was molded by, you know, being a child

836
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 3: of the Arab Israeli conflict, a child of the super

837
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: power conflict when Syria was on the side of the

838
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 3: Soviet Union in Russia. And mostly most importantly a child

839
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 3: of Havazalasat, his father, who had a very particular brand

840
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 3: of authoritarianism in Syria. So those are the things that

841
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 3: shaped his worldview, and I was very interested in, you know,

842
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 3: his transition from enthalmologists to ruler. And so I contacted

843
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 3: one of these academics he brought in who happened to

844
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 3: be the good friend of mine who was in the

845
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 3: Minister of Higher Education, and said, hey, you know, I

846
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 3: like to write a book on him. Can I meet

847
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 3: with Mischard Alasad? And that's how it all started, and

848
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 3: a couple of years later, in two thousand and four,

849
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 3: came into being.

850
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: He's done this with a few Americans over the years,

851
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: like he seems to constantly. You know, there's there's been

852
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 1: a handful of Americans that I feel like I've had

853
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: that he does want to reach out to the Western side.

854
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he did, and so timing, Yeah, when you

855
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 3: reached out to me in two thousand and four through

856
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 3: his ambassador in the United States, he was also a

857
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 3: friend of mine. It was not a coincidence at that

858
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 3: time because it was right after the US led invasion

859
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 3: of Iraq and Syria was slowly turning into a target,

860
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 3: not slowly, actually quickly turning into a target, whereas before

861
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 3: the invasion. Right after nine to eleven, American officials were

862
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 3: saying Syria was helping to save lies with intelligence cooperation

863
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 3: on El Kaeda. After two thousand and three, now Syria

864
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 3: was costing American lives because they were allowing Jahadas to

865
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 3: go through their country and into Iraq, which caused problems

866
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 3: for the US and its allies. And so you know,

867
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 3: I was, I was very interested in that transition, but

868
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 3: he was interested in portraying a more positive image just

869
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 3: when Syrian US relations, I think were deteriorating quite a bit.

870
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 1: So let's fast forward. What do you think of what's

871
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: happening in Syria right now? And what kind of faith

872
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: do you have in this new leader? You know, to

873
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: go from a you know, essentially the insurgency to the establishment,

874
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: right whether no matter your political situation, no matter your country,

875
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: insurgents usually have a tough time governing.

876
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 3: That is the question, isn't it? That is one hundred

877
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 3: thousand dollars question. I get asked it all the time.

878
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 3: I ask other people who know the president much more

879
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 3: intimately than the new president, much more intimately that I do,

880
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 3: and I still get different responses because we really don't know.

881
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 3: As you just said, going from revolutionary to ruler is

882
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 3: a trying process it's not always successful. The revolutionary can't really,

883
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 3: you know, rule in a way that is different from

884
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 3: the way that he handled things beforehand. Plus, and this

885
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 3: is throughout history. When rulers of opposition movements they come

886
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 3: to power, those that help them come to power want dividends.

887
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 3: They want you know, they want positions in the in

888
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 3: the government. They have a certain way of looking at things,

889
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 3: especially if they come from.

890
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: Certain superpowers, believe they should get a little little extra

891
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 1: something as well all the time.

892
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, they want not just a little they want on

893
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 3: everything that so Ama Shaddah, the new president. You know,

894
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 3: on the one hand, the Israelis, quite frankly, they're skeptical

895
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 3: and after October seven, twenty twenty three, and this mcbunker

896
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 3: mentality that they have now, they're want to air in

897
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 3: the side of caution. And most of the Israelis I've

898
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 3: talked to in the military and politically, you know, they

899
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 3: see that Ahma Shada's turn toward moderation, pragmatism, wanting inclusive

900
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 3: government is more a tactical maneuver than something that represents

901
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 3: a true change. That he's going to revert to his

902
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 3: Jahada's roots at some point. And yet others I've talked

903
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 3: to that know him actually personally. One NGO in London

904
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 3: knew him for ten years and they are convinced he

905
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 3: is pragmatic. He has changed. You know, he's going to

906
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 3: be visiting Washington a week from today and meeting with

907
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 3: Trump and they'll probably serial will sign on to the

908
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 3: Anti ISIS coalition, which is supposed to be a big deal.

909
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 3: But they've been helping in terms of intelligence cooperation with

910
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 3: the US and tracking down Okada and isis outbart Is

911
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 3: when he was an IDLIB for the last decade. Now,

912
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 3: he did that because he wanted to clear out and

913
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 3: he helped clear out an any opposition or COMPETI zone.

914
00:51:58,000 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, this is a classic

915
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: case the enemy of my enemy as my house exactly exactly.

916
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 3: But we've had this relationship with him for a while

917
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 3: that has been tactical and opportunistic. I mean all leaders

918
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 3: are opportunistic, they want power, they're egotistical. But if it

919
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 3: could be molded and it couldn't raise, so to speak,

920
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 3: in a way, the population stability than Okay, So the.

921
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: First person that popped in my head when you were

922
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: talking about this debate, you know, no he's a secret

923
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: jihadis No, he's a pragmatist. Was air to one? Yeah, right,

924
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: we've had the same debate about air to one now

925
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: for almost twenty years.

926
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 2: No, he can be dealt with.

927
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: No, he's you know, at the end of the day,

928
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,720
Speaker 1: he's still Muslim brotherhood, right, Like, there's this and yet

929
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: you know Israel at times doesn't want to deal with him.

930
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: But he's a necessary you.

931
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: Know, he's also the head of a country that's a

932
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: member of NATO, right, Like, there's this necessity. How would

933
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: you characterize the new leader of Syria through the prism

934
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: of air to wore like is he? Is it the

935
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: same type of unsurreness about where their real biases lie?

936
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think so. I mean, I think we're on

937
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 3: the road to a sectarian majoritarian state where his Sunni faction,

938
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 3: particularly a much more conservative branch of Sunni is Law,

939
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 3: are going to dominate things in Syria.

940
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: If the actually does this mean he's going to get

941
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: a lot of funding from MBS ANDBZ and oh yeah,

942
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 1: oh yeah, as.

943
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 3: He did as they did during the opposition times and well,

944
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 3: you know, this reminds me you were talking about. This

945
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 3: reminds me nineteen fifties, when we're talking about history in

946
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 3: the Middle East, there was this wonderful political science term

947
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 3: that the US applied to these authoritarian leaders. It was

948
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 3: called transitional authoritarianism, where you know, we support these guys

949
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 3: because they support US interests with military, political aid to police.

950
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: It's why they all hate us. In Latin America, we

951
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: always supported whoever was on our side, not whether they

952
00:53:58,360 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: were smalldy democrats.

953
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we thought they would transition, right, that they

954
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 3: would transition to democracy. But yeah, oh wow, they live power.

955
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 3: They want to stay in power. And this is how

956
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 3: we got with the Shavaran as well, you know, all

957
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 3: these other guys. So you know, I see this playbook

958
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 3: again happening with Syria. We're going to be acting in

959
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 3: our strategic interests as well as Israel. We want to

960
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 3: keep Iran out, we want to keep the Russians at

961
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 3: bay in Syria and hope that it just doesn't implode

962
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 3: into another civil war.

963
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: So can Syria become a democracy pledgling democracy all our

964
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: rock can it?

965
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 3: Sure? Absolutely, they all can become democracies under certain circumstances.

966
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 3: It's like, well, those circumstances ever arise and not just

967
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 3: the you know, the larger ones, big ones, but in

968
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 3: terms of literacy, literacy rates, in terms of civil society,

969
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 3: all of these things that happen, in terms of economic

970
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 3: output and economic opportunity, all these things have to happen

971
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 3: before we get to the big questions of you know,

972
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 3: who can vote and how many people get to vote,

973
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,760
Speaker 3: so you know it can happen. But you know, ninety

974
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 3: percent of the country is in the poverty rate. The

975
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 3: country has been dealing with fifteen years of withering international sanctions.

976
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 3: It's a population that's highly fragmented and militarized, with independent militias,

977
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 3: with drug mafias, with a rapacious warlords roaming around that

978
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 3: have more power than the national army. And you have

979
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 3: these sectarian fortresses which were created with the breakdown of

980
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 3: the state during the Syrians of a war. They you know,

981
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: you naturally retreat into your sectarian fortress and you look

982
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 3: at the other sex as a heathen scum that must

983
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 3: be eliminated from the world. And so how do you

984
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 3: piece all that together? And it's gonna take a long time.

985
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 3: A lot of patients. It may have to go through

986
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 3: various iterations of who is in power and hopefully not

987
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 3: another all out of civil war.

988
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: So the what is I mean, what country has a

989
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:59,720
Speaker 1: shot at trying democracy next after a rock? And why

990
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: are you surprised that Iraq is still sort of a democracy.

991
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 3: Sort of being the operative.

992
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: No, I mean it's not not a democracy. You know,

993
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 1: it's not Egypt.

994
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 2: You know what is?

995
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 3: Are we a democracy? You know? We have electoral college?

996
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 3: You know something?

997
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, do the people have an advanced

998
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: to change the government in this country? And I still

999
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: say the answers.

1000
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah. And so in Iraq. One of the problems,

1001
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 3: and this may be the future of Syria is you

1002
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 3: have the Kurdish Autonomous Zone in the north.

1003
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 2: I want to bring up the Kurds in a minute

1004
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 2: here yet.

1005
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,839
Speaker 3: Which is virtually an independent country and actually doing much

1006
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 3: better than the rest of them.

1007
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 1: I don't know why we don't support a Kurdistan. I mean,

1008
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 1: I know why we don't because Turkey loses.

1009
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 3: Turkey Walton, Iran walten, Iraq walten.

1010
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 2: Why you know, all those countries don't want it.

1011
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 1: But you know, isn't the isn't the exposure of Iran

1012
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: of being a paper tiger make the idea of a

1013
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 1: Kurdistan more possible.

1014
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 3: I think think so in the sense that they won't

1015
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,479
Speaker 3: cause as much trouble in a Rock. And that goes

1016
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 3: for what you were saying earlier, the possibility of Rock

1017
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 3: becoming more of a democracy. I think Iran's being exposed

1018
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 3: and being severely weakened has helped or increase the possibility

1019
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 3: of a Rock becoming a functioning democracy, has increased the

1020
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 3: possibility of Lebanon becoming a functional democracy, and maybe maybe Syria,

1021
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 3: you know, down the road. But you know, at this point,

1022
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 3: you know, I have a low bar of successors.

1023
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: How any Middle East expert is it going to ever

1024
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: be too?

1025
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 3: Sadly, I just want stability and you know, benevolent governance

1026
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 3: in these countries.

1027
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting.

1028
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 1: I have a colleague who just came back from Iran,

1029
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: spent about two weeks here doing some reporting, touching base

1030
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: with some sources again, and he came back pretty convinced

1031
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: that the Iatolas are not going to be able to

1032
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: hold power when this one dies. That is that this

1033
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: is the next big crisis in the Middle East is

1034
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: going to be Iranian instability, and that it's sort of

1035
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: the It is, on one hand, something we've been wanting

1036
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,919
Speaker 1: right as a policy outcome, and yet are we really

1037
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: ready for it?

1038
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 3: What say you, Yeah, be careful what you want right, right,

1039
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 3: and careful what you wish for. I guess that's one

1040
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 3: of the reasons why you know, NBS in Saudi Arabia

1041
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 3: wants that security pack so desperate, as well as access

1042
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 3: to nuclear technology because of that anticipation of instability perhaps

1043
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 3: in the future in Iran, and what might what might

1044
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 3: take over in Iran if the iatolas fall? You know,

1045
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 3: will it becomes Sometimes when the boogeyman falls, it's not

1046
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 3: necessarily what we want comes into power, something even perhaps worse.

1047
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 2: Well, we saw that in Egypt.

1048
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 3: We saw that in Egypt.

1049
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, suddenly you're like, well, wait a minute, we'd like

1050
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 1: that military dictatorship back please.

1051
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, democracy is great as long as they left the

1052
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 3: person we like, right, And but Iran I agree with that.

1053
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 3: I agree with your colleagues observation. I think Iran is

1054
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 3: on the precipice.

1055
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: You know that this was a really it's really the

1056
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: unpopularity of the of the aetolas are huge, the distrust

1057
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: and then the fact that they so easily folded right,

1058
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: there was just there's no longer I mean, yes, they're

1059
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: still brutalizing opposition, domestic opposition. They're still trying to be

1060
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: an authoritarian state. But they've certainly there's not a lot

1061
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: of fear anymore of the Iotolis.

1062
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's not so they folded. It's not so

1063
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 3: much that they were beaten, they were obliterated.

1064
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:28,919
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1065
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 3: You know, despite all of this, you know, supposed deterrence

1066
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 3: between Israel and Iran, and then Israel goes and takes

1067
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 3: out his Belah in the most and most unique way,

1068
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 3: and then a sad falls and the only viable and

1069
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 3: then Hamas of course is terribly weakened. The only viable

1070
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 3: you know, proxy militia is the Huthis now and Yemen.

1071
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 3: But Iran is weakened their image. I think even more importantly,

1072
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 3: their image has just gone down the tubes with regional powers. Uh.

1073
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 3: And I think we can see a real clignment of this.

1074
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 3: But what will happen in Iran? Iran has always been

1075
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 3: reviewed as the prize, along as already being the Gulf,

1076
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 3: So there are gonna be a lot of eyes the prize.

1077
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:10,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I look at it as if Iran ever

1078
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 1: decides to be a Western democracy, watch out. They're going

1079
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 1: to be an economic powerhouse.

1080
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, And I mean they've got the largest natural

1081
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 3: gas reserves in the world, large oil reserves, and they

1082
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 3: have the minerals if they can just get their act together.

1083
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 3: Of course, we could say it about Venezuela. We could

1084
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 3: say it about you know, you didn't say it about Syria,

1085
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 3: you know. I mean Syrians for years have always told

1086
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 3: me we'd be much better allies than the Israelis, would

1087
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 3: you know we would. We wouldn't undercut you as much

1088
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 3: as the Israelis have done, and I'm sure the Iranians

1089
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 3: would would try to do it after all. I mean

1090
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 3: it's a you know, far COO's Arabic script is an

1091
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 3: Indo European language, you know, and they have this past

1092
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 3: that aligns with the West in some ways.

1093
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 1: So what do you make of the of this, of

1094
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 1: this idea that the Middle East is essentially now the

1095
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: rules are being written by the Israelis and the Gulf States.

1096
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. I think

1097
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 3: Israel is at its at its apex of power in

1098
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 3: the region.

1099
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: Well it's funny apex of military power, but at a

1100
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: nator in influence, right.

1101
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 3: I don't know. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that because

1102
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 3: military power speaks a great deal on that part of

1103
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 3: the world. Yeah, and they are isolated international, but how

1104
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 3: often does diplomatic isolation last when you need them, you know,

1105
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 3: when they when they are on your strategic side, and

1106
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 3: that goes out, that was out the window. So I

1107
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 3: don't I don't think the Israelis ever really worry about

1108
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 3: that too much. They're going to do what they want

1109
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 3: to do. They they're going to do what they feel

1110
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 3: is in their strategic objectives, and and they have done that.

1111
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 3: I mean, look at this, Chuck, I mean that they

1112
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 3: bomb Cutter.

1113
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 1: I think it's remarkable. You know, look, it's really frustrating

1114
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: to me because you know, look, if they had the

1115
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 1: way they managed the way they did the war in

1116
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: Gaza versus the way they did Hesbela, it's like night

1117
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: and day. Right, it was the you know, you could tell,

1118
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 1: as I said, bb let IDF do its thing with

1119
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: Iran and with with Hesbelah. They micro managed all things

1120
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: Gaza through the lens of domestic politics, which is why

1121
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: that's turned into an utter nightmare. Right.

1122
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 3: No, I agree, I mean they strategically took out his

1123
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 3: blow in a very phase step way, very strategic way,

1124
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 3: brilliant way in the same.

1125
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: Thing the way that we had come to be exactly

1126
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 1: that many admire the Israelis about like they did with Munich.

1127
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 1: They treated Hesbelah like they did the Munich terrorists, you.

1128
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 3: Knoweah, exactly, and they use the bulldozer in Ghaza, and.

1129
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 1: Which is why they have this weird moment where they

1130
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: have maximized military power but problems with you know, but

1131
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: they're pretty isolated in the in the world.

1132
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 3: Yeah again, they bomb Cutter, and no Arab countries that

1133
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 3: are at peace with Israel break relations with it, you know,

1134
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 3: not even Cuting.

1135
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,959
Speaker 2: You're right, it's astonishing. It was so brazenishing moment.

1136
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 3: It's an amazing moment. And and talks about how those

1137
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 3: shifts have occurred in the region UH and UH and

1138
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 3: the and the importance of the Gulf state's intelligence cooperation,

1139
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 3: economic cooperation that they've had with th REELL for for

1140
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 3: years prior to you know, some of them establishing relations.

1141
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 3: So this is this is absolutely a sea change for me.

1142
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 3: And I see Syria coming on board if this current

1143
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 3: uh UH government stays in power and follows along the

1144
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 3: line they're doing at least signing a security arrangement with

1145
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 3: Israel and then once society has crossed the line, which

1146
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 3: they were they were gonna do probably if October seventh

1147
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 3: didn't happen, which is one of the reasons, as you know,

1148
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 3: the Hamas did. October seventh was.

1149
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 1: No, it was the you know, it's interesting, it was

1150
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: you know the way Washington works, you know, in the

1151
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 1: sort of everything is a deal. You know, the Saudis

1152
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 1: were going to give Biden this, Yeah, this was going

1153
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 1: to be Biden's like they weren't going to hold you know,

1154
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 1: the Trump people were pressuring them to to basically wait

1155
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 1: until Trump was there to add Saudi to the Abraham Accords,

1156
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 1: and they were.

1157
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 2: Gonna because the Saudi's weren't. They're not stupid.

1158
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: They want to play bipartisan American politics here. They want

1159
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: to everybody because they frankly knew, unlike Bebe, the Saudis

1160
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: knew they had a problem in America's left and that

1161
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: they were better off trying to appease the American left

1162
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: rather than fight it. BB wants to fight it rather

1163
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 1: than appease. But I'll but we could set that aside.

1164
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 1: And October seventh, obviously made that impossible. But where talk

1165
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 1: to my friends that are going to be listening to

1166
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 1: this and say, I can't stomach MBS. Why should we

1167
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: help him? What's say, give me the give me the

1168
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 1: academic view of why we've Why would they're a necessary partner?

1169
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 3: Oh, he's the only game in town right now for

1170
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 3: a very important strategic country. And and uh, you know,

1171
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 3: I don't at all like some of the things he's on,

1172
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 3: especially to you know, Koshoji and uh In in assassinating

1173
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 3: and dismembering him, some of these things. But uh, you know,

1174
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 3: I'm all more of a realistic understand that. You know,

1175
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 3: tomorrow is a different day, and the Saudis an NBS

1176
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 3: may be very much needed. You know now that now

1177
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 3: that you know Iraan is perhaps weaken We always thought

1178
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 3: of them at the Saudis as a counterway to Iran,

1179
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 3: But we have to see what's going to happen with Iran.

1180
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 3: It'll be interesting in the future. This will be interesting

1181
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 3: if ten fifteen years from now, Iran does get rid

1182
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 3: of the Ietolas, does stabilize, does become this potential economic

1183
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 3: power is you know, much like Germany in mainland Europe.

1184
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 3: You know, what will happen with the Saudis relationship and

1185
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 3: so forth? Can the two mutually coexist with US interests?

1186
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 2: Right?

1187
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 1: You could see three economic powers in the Middle East Israel,

1188
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: a democratic Iran, and this sort of religious monarchy in

1189
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 1: the Gulf, right with the Saudis, and they are they

1190
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: going to be alliance? Are they going to be competitors? Right?

1191
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, exactly, and that will be interesting to see

1192
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 3: and so many, so much more history will occur before.

1193
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 1: We can answer that question. So let's move backwards about

1194
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: your baseball career and how you you.

1195
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 2: Know, tell me how you fused it? You know, what

1196
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 2: is it? What are the lessons? You know?

1197
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm a huge advocate of sports in general, youth sports.

1198
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 1: It teaches human interaction, it teaches there's so many lessons

1199
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: from team sports. In particular. I think football is ideally

1200
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: the most incredible team sport to deliver because eleven people

1201
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 1: have to do their job for success. In baseball, everybody

1202
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: has to do their job. There's a little bit of

1203
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 1: individual talent, right, you know that you can, but ultimately

1204
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 1: you don't win with that. You could be the greatest

1205
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 1: player in the world, Tad Williams, but if you don't

1206
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: have enough good baseball players around you, You're not going

1207
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 1: to win a World Series. So you know how when

1208
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:00,080
Speaker 1: somebody says the lessons of baseball helped me become a

1209
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: better give me better perspective about the Middle East? You

1210
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 1: answer this question half.

1211
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 3: Because I failed so many times in baseball. I mean,

1212
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 3: as you and.

1213
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,040
Speaker 2: Mist in the Middle East is a lot of failure,

1214
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 2: A lot of failure.

1215
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 3: I mean, failure is at the core of sports. I mean,

1216
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 3: you know, what do you have to hit to reach

1217
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 3: the Hall of Fame in Major League Baseball?

1218
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: You only have to fail seven out of ten times.

1219
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 3: Exactly, And so you have to keep coming back as

1220
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 3: a pitcher. Of course, I was a hitter as well

1221
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 3: early on, but in professional baseball was a pitcher. And

1222
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 3: you know, one inning you give up a home run.

1223
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 3: The next inning, you know you have a chance to

1224
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 3: rectify the situation or the next game, and so you

1225
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 3: constantly fail. And I played basketball and tennis and all

1226
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 3: in football when I was young, and you were constantly tested,

1227
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:49,160
Speaker 3: and you developed this resiliency which Sanjay Gupta I read

1228
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 3: the other day says resiliency is like strength training for

1229
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 3: the brain, you know, and it helps you get through

1230
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 3: personal traumas it helps you get through failures later in life,

1231
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 3: and as I've become a conflict resolution person involved in

1232
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 3: high level negotiations and air BISAREELI stuff, steering, civil war.

1233
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 3: You fail all the time, I mean, but you have

1234
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 3: to learn from it, and you have to have that resiliency,

1235
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 3: that persistence, perseverance to get through it and try again,

1236
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 3: and try again and try again. Now you don't want

1237
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 3: to make you know, Einstein's theory of insanity correct, but

1238
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 3: you you, you know, learn from it and it just

1239
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 3: and sometimes things just out of out of your control,

1240
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 3: ruins everything and brings you back to ground zero. And

1241
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 3: that's what happens in sports as well. And you just

1242
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 3: have to have that resiliency. And so, you know, one

1243
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 3: of my mantras is keep trying, don't eliminate yourself, and

1244
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 3: keep trying. And that I had to think. That's what

1245
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:46,960
Speaker 3: I got from baseball and sports in general.

1246
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 1: When you you know, do you look back on your

1247
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: injury and think, boy, if it happened today, you know,

1248
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 1: the technology would have given me another chance.

1249
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:00,719
Speaker 3: Jock, you be interviewing the lead comment of the World

1250
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,120
Speaker 3: Series right now, the lead analyst after a twenty year,

1251
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 3: brilliant Hall of Fame career at the injury.

1252
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 1: Now that's the what if in your head?

1253
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 2: How do you not think about that?

1254
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 1: What if?

1255
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:11,040
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1256
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: I'm all the technological advancements. I mean, you know, Sandy

1257
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:19,639
Speaker 1: Kofax's career ends. You know, show has already had two.

1258
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 2: Tommy Jones, Yeah, I think, right, you know.

1259
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's remarkable, right, Like Sandy Kofex might have

1260
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 1: had another five great years.

1261
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, I had a rotator cuff

1262
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:34,439
Speaker 3: injury and rotator cuff surgery by Frank Joe, but the

1263
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 3: Dodgers didn't really perfect itself for another five ten years. Yes, yeah,

1264
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 3: I mean I really don't think of that because I've

1265
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 3: had a fulfilling, you know, career in many ways more fulfilling,

1266
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 3: and I have a wonderful wife and family and so forth,

1267
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 3: so you know, all those If I become a major

1268
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 3: league player, that wouldn't have happened and wouldn't have met

1269
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:55,840
Speaker 3: these one of the people. But I don't really think

1270
01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 3: of that. But but you know, sometimes, you know, I

1271
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 3: think I would have made a lot more money. That's

1272
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:06,719
Speaker 3: rich there being a major league pitcher. But drafting pictures

1273
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 3: is the worst investment in all of sports. That's why

1274
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 3: you got a draft about ten or fifteen of them.

1275
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 3: Hopefully one gets through because of all the injuries, because

1276
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 3: everything you do physiologically pitcher is wrong against normal you know, physiology.

1277
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny you say that I got you know.

1278
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 2: I think I told you off camera.

1279
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 1: I was The Dodgers were the team of my youth,

1280
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 1: so I used to just I know a lot of

1281
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 1: the history of the Dodgers in general, and any any

1282
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 1: individual player that sort of had made a name for themselves.

1283
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,960
Speaker 1: I always have some curiosity about and the relief pitcher

1284
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 1: Mike Marshall, who I believes the first ever relief pitcher

1285
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:46,759
Speaker 1: to win this ion. He spent the last twenty years

1286
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:51,720
Speaker 1: of his like obsessed with changing the motion of pictures

1287
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 1: for the very thing you just said said, like the

1288
01:10:56,080 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 1: way that we've taught pitching is actually asked the arm

1289
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 1: to do something it shouldn't be doing, and that if

1290
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 1: you change the motion, you could actually limit injuries. And

1291
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 1: I believe his method did produce one major leaguer who

1292
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: got into the majors. But given when you came up,

1293
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,599
Speaker 1: it was sort of tail end of Marshall's career there.

1294
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:19,839
Speaker 2: Did you ever follow that.

1295
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 1: That whole like, oh the case he had?

1296
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's funny. I was. I was just thinking

1297
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 3: about this yesterday when I was talking to someone. If

1298
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 3: I had to change something with my motion I was

1299
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:35,880
Speaker 3: in college and then drafted in the pros, it would

1300
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 3: be throwing more side arm. I was a straight overhand pitcher,

1301
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:42,040
Speaker 3: and the more straight overhand you throw, the more pressure.

1302
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, it's right on your shoulder. Like this

1303
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:47,280
Speaker 1: kid at the Blue Jays. Now, I just heard, right,

1304
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:49,720
Speaker 1: this kid with the Blue Jays, You savage.

1305
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:52,719
Speaker 2: Don't you watch him throw and think.

1306
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, buddy, in about two years, you're going to have soldiers. Suit.

1307
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:57,799
Speaker 3: It's going to happen, and they're all throwing so hard

1308
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 3: and putting so much stress on their extra ligaments in

1309
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 3: their forearm that they're all getting Tommy John surgery. I mean,

1310
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 3: as you said, Otani had two, it's like everyone has one.

1311
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 3: They're having them now in high school and college. It's like,

1312
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 3: you know, you know something that has to happen before, well,

1313
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 3: isn't it you? Now?

1314
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:18,160
Speaker 1: Rarely will an MLB team draft a high school pitcher anymore? Right?

1315
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 1: They almost want the college level get your Tommy John out.

1316
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,920
Speaker 1: Get LSU to pay for the Tommy John, right, Get

1317
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,519
Speaker 1: cal State Fullerton to pay the Tommy John, you know

1318
01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and then we'll.

1319
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 3: Off, you know, and come back for twenty three or

1320
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 3: you know, something like that. And it's so much stress

1321
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:39,800
Speaker 3: on the body in the arm. But throwing sidearm, if

1322
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:41,640
Speaker 3: I had to go back, I do that because I

1323
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:43,400
Speaker 3: did throw a sidearm every now and then just to

1324
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 3: cross up the hitter. I crossed up my catcher as well.

1325
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:50,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was effective, and I threw actually even harder.

1326
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 3: I mean I had a low nineties, high eighties fastball,

1327
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 3: you know, peaked at ninety five, which in those days

1328
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 3: actually meant something. Can you believe change ups today are

1329
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:02,719
Speaker 3: ninety miles hour change The whole goal.

1330
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:04,559
Speaker 2: Of a change up is what it has to be ten.

1331
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:06,720
Speaker 3: Miles less than your fast ball, exactly right.

1332
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:09,240
Speaker 2: So if you're throwing a hundred, then yeah, right.

1333
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:13,559
Speaker 3: That's just unfathomable to me. And sliders at ninety miles

1334
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:15,519
Speaker 3: an hours, I don't know how these hitters are doing it,

1335
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 3: how they can hit these things, But.

1336
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 1: I know there's this point where you wonder, when does

1337
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 1: the ligament just when does the body we have reached

1338
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:25,759
Speaker 1: the peak performance of the body.

1339
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think, you know, I think there's going

1340
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 3: to be a trend. This is getting so it's a

1341
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:35,559
Speaker 3: pandemic of Tommy John surgery. I think there's going to

1342
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 3: be a trend to go back to the great Maddis

1343
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 3: Maddox type of pitching, you know, high eighties, maybe low

1344
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:44,839
Speaker 3: nineties at best, movement on the ball, placement, pitch longer.

1345
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:47,360
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we were talking off camera and

1346
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 3: Jim Palmer and right Bob Gison's guy. They threw three

1347
01:13:51,280 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 3: hundred innings year after year, twenty complete games. So I.

1348
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 2: Love Fernando.

1349
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 1: Fernando was you know, I was ten when he came

1350
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 1: up right like that was peak, you know, and he

1351
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 1: was so much fun that World Series in eighty one

1352
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:15,719
Speaker 1: and following his career and you look at his year

1353
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:18,600
Speaker 1: stats and it was always like I always thought he was.

1354
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: I always thought he belonged to the Hall of Fame

1355
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 1: before everything else he did. And when you look at

1356
01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 1: his eight year sort of his eight year peak, Nope,

1357
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:30,000
Speaker 1: he always threw three hundred innings.

1358
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 3: You know.

1359
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 1: The joke was Tommy, you know, ruined his career by

1360
01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:35,600
Speaker 1: leaving him into always way too long, and that he

1361
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:39,880
Speaker 1: that he basically his eight years was the equivalent of

1362
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:43,240
Speaker 1: what would be a seventeen year career today per number

1363
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:44,480
Speaker 1: of innings you pitch.

1364
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 3: Exactly, exactly. Remember the Braves, you know when they had

1365
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 3: Smolds and Maddocks and glad Lavin. Yeah, they all pitched,

1366
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 3: you know, every four days. They pitched long, you know,

1367
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 3: deep into the game. And analytics have, in my mind,

1368
01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 3: screw things up with that regard. And you know, you

1369
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 3: can't face a batter more than two times or the

1370
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:03,640
Speaker 3: third time they're going to catch on to you. But

1371
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:05,680
Speaker 3: this is what pitching is all about, if you have

1372
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 3: enough pitches and and uh yeah, Maddox.

1373
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:11,280
Speaker 1: I love those stories of Maddox, you know, and hear

1374
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: stories and he says, yeah, I let this guy see

1375
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:15,280
Speaker 1: this pitch because I know I'm facing him in the

1376
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:17,439
Speaker 1: playoffs and he's gonna think I'm gonna throw it again,

1377
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 1: and I'm never going to do Like Maddox was always.

1378
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:22,000
Speaker 2: Game planning on that bat.

1379
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 1: The next at bat when he was facing the current batter,

1380
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make him pop this one up, And sure

1381
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 1: enough he could do that. Like that's just that's pitching.

1382
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:31,880
Speaker 1: That's that's strac.

1383
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 3: Actually thinking, actually thinking on the mound, you know. And

1384
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 3: and maybe that's why I'm into academia, Chuck. They always

1385
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:39,200
Speaker 3: thought think.

1386
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 1: Can you imagine do they having an earpiece, oh where

1387
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:44,679
Speaker 1: somebody's telling you what pitch to throat?

1388
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 3: That would be insulting to me. You know, I call

1389
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:49,759
Speaker 3: the game. I think is it shirt ser you mentioned

1390
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:52,680
Speaker 3: him Searcher actually shirts his own game. Don't ever get

1391
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 3: me one of these things, you know.

1392
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 2: And now Max is the left.

1393
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:58,240
Speaker 1: Max, it feels like we're about to see the end

1394
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:02,479
Speaker 1: of the last era of sort of the twentieth century

1395
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 1: style of pitching. We're moving to this, right. Susier was

1396
01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 1: always a throwback, you know. He never wanted to go

1397
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:10,719
Speaker 1: less than seven, right, He always wanted to keep going.

1398
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 1: Your Verlanders, your Sugiers, your Kershaws, and here they are.

1399
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:19,400
Speaker 1: They're all basically probably I kind of think Max, I

1400
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 1: want him to retire. Now he gets to say he

1401
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:24,760
Speaker 1: pitched the last gave me pitch was a series. But

1402
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 1: it's hard to walk away, right, Like, how often did

1403
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:29,280
Speaker 1: you wish you had one more year?

1404
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 3: I wish I wish I had I wish I had

1405
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:35,680
Speaker 3: one year in the majors. I mean, as you know,

1406
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:38,800
Speaker 3: I flamed out the miners. I wish I would have

1407
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 3: stayed healthy enough to God, because I went up against

1408
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 3: these guys in spring training and batting practice.

1409
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,400
Speaker 2: And you knew you had your stuff. It was just

1410
01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:50,080
Speaker 2: the injury that never gave me the shot I help, So,

1411
01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:50,559
Speaker 2: you know, I.

1412
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 3: Mean there's lots of ifs and what ifs, and sure

1413
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:54,920
Speaker 3: I think I had the basic stuff. That's why I

1414
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:57,799
Speaker 3: was drafting number one, I think, and by the Dodgers,

1415
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 3: so I like to think, I you know, if not, they.

1416
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 1: Were always a little bit better at identifying young pictures.

1417
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:05,679
Speaker 1: I mean that was their thing. That's what they did.

1418
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:07,599
Speaker 3: That's what they did. But you still got to get

1419
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 3: a bunch of them because you just never know when

1420
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 3: the body's going to give out, and it will give

1421
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:14,559
Speaker 3: out unless you're Clemens or Nolan Ryan has to be a.

1422
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 1: Bionical I read, is it Nolan Ryan that doesn't have

1423
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:22,880
Speaker 1: the the the tendon that would snap or something like?

1424
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:25,719
Speaker 1: He was basically literally a gift from.

1425
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,120
Speaker 2: God type of I know, I know, elbow it's the key.

1426
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:29,880
Speaker 3: You know, if you want your kid to become a pitcher,

1427
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 3: take out, take out the flexor tendon or something like that.

1428
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:35,960
Speaker 1: Like, don't even have it. It turns out it's an impediment.

1429
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:38,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, I mean, but look at his legs,

1430
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,639
Speaker 3: you know, uh Nolan Ryan and Tom c they're huge,

1431
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:43,679
Speaker 3: and he got a lot of his power. It got

1432
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 3: low and pushed off and that's what a lot of

1433
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 3: pictures it.

1434
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 1: Certainly it looks like he's built that way. Yeah, exactly,

1435
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 1: He's built bottom up. And if you told me, if

1436
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:56,439
Speaker 1: I told you, he never It's interesting, by the way,

1437
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:58,519
Speaker 1: a guy like Max Scherzer's never had a Tommy John

1438
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:01,840
Speaker 1: and neither's Kershaw. Right, what does it tell you if

1439
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:05,840
Speaker 1: you've never had one these days.

1440
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 3: That if you pitch the right way, if you don't

1441
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:12,960
Speaker 3: worry about throwing, use your legs now, use your legs,

1442
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:16,519
Speaker 3: use your body. And there's all sorts of mechanics now

1443
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:19,799
Speaker 3: to align your body. There's so much more technology. Perhaps

1444
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:21,760
Speaker 3: when I was playing, if they had that technology, they

1445
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,599
Speaker 3: would have aligned my body my motion more. I put

1446
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 3: less stress on the elbow shoulder for me. So you

1447
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 3: know they can do these things. But man, if you're

1448
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:33,000
Speaker 3: throwing one hundred miles an hour, your arm is going

1449
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:36,519
Speaker 3: to give out. You just cannot take that type of pressure.

1450
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 3: And the thing is, you know, hitters are they catch up,

1451
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:42,679
Speaker 3: they're hitting these balls. And I've leuis, how many teams

1452
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:46,519
Speaker 3: your favorite teams? And a guy Jamie Moyer, you know,

1453
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:50,960
Speaker 3: who's forty he pitched forever eighty two miles an hour,

1454
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 3: eighty five miles an hour, and he pitches a shout

1455
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:56,080
Speaker 3: out because hitters aren't used to that type of thing.

1456
01:18:56,160 --> 01:18:58,760
Speaker 3: You know, they're not used to eighty eighty with with

1457
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:03,040
Speaker 3: motion and with the motion in the ball and with targeting,

1458
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:07,280
Speaker 3: you know, target to pitching. So it's I think there

1459
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:09,760
Speaker 3: there's room for both. And I think I agree with you.

1460
01:19:09,800 --> 01:19:11,680
Speaker 3: I think we're gonna trend sort of in a in

1461
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 3: another direction. I hope, I hope.

1462
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:16,160
Speaker 1: Well, it was exciting to see Amamoto throw a complete game.

1463
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,720
Speaker 1: You're like, hey, that used to be a big that

1464
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 1: used to not be as big of a deal. A

1465
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:22,160
Speaker 1: complete game of the World Series.

1466
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 3: It must be a different Yamamoto, you know at some point.

1467
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:26,880
Speaker 3: But and then he comes back the day after and

1468
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:29,120
Speaker 3: throws you know, three innings, you know, after he throws

1469
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:33,360
Speaker 3: a I mean, it's unbelievable, and uh, you know, I

1470
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:37,160
Speaker 3: hope his arm is Okay, uh, you know, I'm sure,

1471
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,880
Speaker 3: having invested gazillion dollars in him, they're not going to

1472
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 3: ruin him.

1473
01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:43,679
Speaker 1: But I'm sorry as a as a Natch fan who

1474
01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:47,639
Speaker 1: watched the team make the decision not to use their

1475
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 1: young star pitcher in a run to the playoffs, and

1476
01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:54,360
Speaker 1: then they decided to over use them in their eventual

1477
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 1: run to the World Series. They you know, the price

1478
01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 1: of the world. I mean, Steven Strasburg never recover from

1479
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:01,000
Speaker 1: that overuse.

1480
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:02,400
Speaker 3: That's true, That's true.

1481
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 1: I mean it ended his career. Now, the question is,

1482
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:08,040
Speaker 1: as a franchise, if the ultimate prize is winning the

1483
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 1: World Championship? Is it worth it?

1484
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:12,880
Speaker 3: Would you take that? Is that? Is that? Is that? Well?

1485
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:15,960
Speaker 2: They did? That's the disc Basically, the Nats made that

1486
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:16,519
Speaker 2: worth it.

1487
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 3: As a Gnats fan, are you is that worth it?

1488
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:22,560
Speaker 1: It's a great question I'm glad to have had. I

1489
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:25,440
Speaker 1: I tell this to my son because he's so depressed

1490
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:28,439
Speaker 1: about the state of the Nats and it's an ownership

1491
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:30,439
Speaker 1: group that doesn't look like they want to keep up

1492
01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 1: with the Joneses or the Guggenheims, et cetera.

1493
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:34,360
Speaker 3: Right, right, correct, But.

1494
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:40,320
Speaker 1: I tell him, you know what's what makes fandom fantastic

1495
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:45,400
Speaker 1: because you experience a low for so long that when

1496
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:47,680
Speaker 1: you get the taste of the high, it's so much

1497
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:48,679
Speaker 1: it tastes so much better.

1498
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:51,280
Speaker 3: Well, you're talking to as I said before, I grew

1499
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:53,880
Speaker 3: up in Baltimore, a lifelong Orioles fan. We haven't won

1500
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:56,840
Speaker 3: the World Series since eighty three. If we had an opportunity,

1501
01:20:56,960 --> 01:20:59,120
Speaker 3: if we were in the World Series this year, throw

1502
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:03,559
Speaker 3: cost win, throw right the top pitchers every every inning.

1503
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 3: I don't care. You know everything you know, and I'm

1504
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:09,200
Speaker 3: a pitcher. I realized what could happen with overuse?

1505
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:12,760
Speaker 1: You know? So let me ask the Otani question to you,

1506
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:14,519
Speaker 1: because I'm sure you get a version of it, But

1507
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 1: let me ask it this way. Why is this so unusual?

1508
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:21,719
Speaker 1: I why why haven't more pitchers been more successful hitters

1509
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 1: in the past.

1510
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:24,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think I think you're going to see this.

1511
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:27,000
Speaker 3: And one of the things that most people don't realize

1512
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:31,280
Speaker 3: is that major league pitchers, almost all of them, I

1513
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:33,679
Speaker 3: would say, were really great hitters.

1514
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:35,640
Speaker 1: In little They were probably the best team in their

1515
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:38,439
Speaker 1: little league. Best. They played every If they weren't pitching,

1516
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:39,519
Speaker 1: they were playing shortstop.

1517
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:41,880
Speaker 3: Right on my high school team, I was the best hitter.

1518
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:44,880
Speaker 3: I was the best pitcher in college. It happens. But

1519
01:21:44,960 --> 01:21:47,519
Speaker 3: in college you start getting weeded out and you get

1520
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:51,040
Speaker 3: into specialization. I remember, even when I was playing in

1521
01:21:51,120 --> 01:21:54,240
Speaker 3: the minor leagues, only the Cincinnati Reds, even in the

1522
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:57,600
Speaker 3: minor low one near leagues, allow pitchers to hit. But

1523
01:21:58,280 --> 01:22:01,799
Speaker 3: otherwise you're you know, DH four, and you never practice,

1524
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,040
Speaker 3: you never take hitting practice. And so just like anything,

1525
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 3: you do skill and so the specialization of it. But

1526
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 3: I did when a little league game, I did pitch

1527
01:22:11,439 --> 01:22:13,800
Speaker 3: a complete game, six inning shutout and hit a home

1528
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:16,000
Speaker 3: run in the game. So and it was a legitimate

1529
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 3: home run, not a little league Yeah, you get a

1530
01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:22,200
Speaker 3: show exactly, but I do.

1531
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:26,120
Speaker 1: It was always one of those I never understood why

1532
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 1: more pitchers couldn't take batting practice on their off days.

1533
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:32,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know it. I don't know. Maybe the Union

1534
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 3: got together and this is this is conspiracy theory talk,

1535
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:38,360
Speaker 3: and they said they want these older guys who can

1536
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 3: want jobs.

1537
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:42,760
Speaker 2: A conspiracy theory. No, no, no, no. The argument the

1538
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:44,639
Speaker 2: DH is more jobs.

1539
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,360
Speaker 3: He Aaron, Tommy Davis, you know these these older guys

1540
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:50,280
Speaker 3: that can't play in the field, and and they want

1541
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:52,800
Speaker 3: more offense. I mean, that's the that's the key. You know,

1542
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 3: they want more runs, they want more offense. It was

1543
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:58,200
Speaker 3: a business decision. And all the National League, of course

1544
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:01,720
Speaker 3: is designated hit her and I missed the strategy of

1545
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:03,519
Speaker 3: the picture hitting and all of that sort of thing.

1546
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:05,680
Speaker 3: And but and there were some good there were some

1547
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:08,880
Speaker 3: good pictures some you know who who hit as well.

1548
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 3: So I miss So.

1549
01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:14,760
Speaker 1: Could you know there's there's a team Israel in the

1550
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:19,640
Speaker 1: World Baseball Classic, but baseball's never really taken in the

1551
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:23,959
Speaker 1: Middle East. There is some cricket. Could you ever imagine

1552
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 1: being able to get more people interested in baseball in

1553
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:27,599
Speaker 1: the Middle East?

1554
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:30,840
Speaker 3: I think I'd like to get more people interested in

1555
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 3: baseball in the United States.

1556
01:23:32,479 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 1: With first, well, I.

1557
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:36,080
Speaker 2: Know my son is My son tells me this all

1558
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:36,679
Speaker 2: the time. He goes.

1559
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:38,640
Speaker 1: You know, I'm the only one of my friends that

1560
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 1: actually follows baseball like they're Nats fans, but they weren't

1561
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:45,720
Speaker 1: really Like he's now at school in Dallas, and the

1562
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:47,639
Speaker 1: first thing he did was he wanted to go check

1563
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:50,439
Speaker 1: out a Rangers game. He'd never been. And he had

1564
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 1: the hardest time convincing somebody to go with them to

1565
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:54,040
Speaker 1: a baseball.

1566
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:56,360
Speaker 3: Game because it's it's long, it's you know, to some

1567
01:23:56,640 --> 01:23:59,479
Speaker 3: that it's boring. There's not as much action. There's a

1568
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:01,240
Speaker 3: lot more lot into it. I mean, you know, I

1569
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:06,000
Speaker 3: take the George Will you know view toward yeah, base

1570
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:08,479
Speaker 3: I think about every pitch where the fielders are, and

1571
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 3: so it's it's a lot of fun in my mind.

1572
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:13,919
Speaker 3: But we're baseball aholics, you know. But for this generation

1573
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:17,960
Speaker 3: and the recent generations, uh, you know, they want more action,

1574
01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:22,080
Speaker 3: more scoring, which is why baseball, you know, went to

1575
01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 3: the home run and steroids and looked the other way

1576
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:26,240
Speaker 3: and all this stuff to get more runs on the board.

1577
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:29,240
Speaker 3: But we'll take in the Middle East, I don't know.

1578
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:31,000
Speaker 3: I mean, the Saudi's play it. But that's a bunch

1579
01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:33,599
Speaker 3: of a Ramco kids, you know that that's all right.

1580
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:36,760
Speaker 1: It is cricket close enough that you could use it

1581
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:38,040
Speaker 1: as a gateway or not.

1582
01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:42,439
Speaker 3: No, I don't think it's a very different game. And

1583
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 3: people look at the history of baseball and they think

1584
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:47,759
Speaker 3: it comes from cricket. It really doesn't. It comes from rounders,

1585
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:50,680
Speaker 3: which is much more like baseball. But I don't think

1586
01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:54,200
Speaker 3: I can't even understand cricket, and cricketers can't understand baseball either.

1587
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:54,920
Speaker 2: But I've tried to.

1588
01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:57,840
Speaker 1: I've like, you know, uh, you know, sometimes you're just

1589
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:01,040
Speaker 1: traveling overseas and you're stuck a hotel and there's nothing

1590
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:03,120
Speaker 1: to watch other than either a rugby match or a

1591
01:25:03,200 --> 01:25:06,280
Speaker 1: cricket match. So you know, I would sit there and

1592
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:09,320
Speaker 1: try to figure it out, and you're just like, well,

1593
01:25:09,439 --> 01:25:09,880
Speaker 1: you know, you know.

1594
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 3: While you make an interesting point, show maybe in the

1595
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:14,960
Speaker 3: Middle East and elsewhere, and maybe baseball has more of

1596
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:18,560
Speaker 3: a chance because their favorite sports, you know, soccer or

1597
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:22,680
Speaker 3: football and cricket. You know, they're they're long soccer and

1598
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:23,519
Speaker 3: they're low scoring.

1599
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:27,160
Speaker 1: So maybe, right, and it is about strategy that you know,

1600
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:31,040
Speaker 1: in some ways the mentality of sports, especially in sort

1601
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:34,040
Speaker 1: of Southeast Asia with cricket and soccer, and at least

1602
01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 1: with cricket and soccer. I mean you're right, I mean,

1603
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:40,160
Speaker 1: maybe we're stumbling onto something and that they enjoy the

1604
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 1: patience of the success. Yeah.

1605
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:45,000
Speaker 3: We just we just need baseball. I mean obviously it's

1606
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:47,320
Speaker 3: it's very popular in Latin America and in East Asia.

1607
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:50,640
Speaker 3: We just need baseball to enter into Europe and the

1608
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 3: and the Middle East and do what the NFL I

1609
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:55,200
Speaker 3: think has been doing. You know, we of course we

1610
01:25:55,360 --> 01:25:59,680
Speaker 3: hold games in Mexico and and uh and have exhibitions

1611
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:02,240
Speaker 3: and Stasi and so forth, or actually had some regular

1612
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 3: season games in Japan this this past year. So you know,

1613
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:07,679
Speaker 3: I think one of the things, one of the things

1614
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:11,680
Speaker 3: which changes everyone's perception in the particular region world out

1615
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:14,479
Speaker 3: of sport, United States, if someone from that region becomes

1616
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:17,280
Speaker 3: a star and it becomes a guiding light like a

1617
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:20,960
Speaker 3: show Atani or you know earlier Japanese players and Korean players.

1618
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:23,519
Speaker 3: We just need some some Middle East.

1619
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 1: You know, we almost had it in you Darvish, Yeah, Japanese, Iranian.

1620
01:26:28,200 --> 01:26:32,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly. So you know, if we get one

1621
01:26:32,280 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 3: of those these these you know, lightning rods that can

1622
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:39,240
Speaker 3: that can act as a uh, you know, a form

1623
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:43,040
Speaker 3: of attraction to your day, and and then you start

1624
01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 3: to get youth baseball and stuff like that. May take

1625
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 3: a generation, but that's what it'll take.

1626
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:49,479
Speaker 1: Let me get let me get you out of here.

1627
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:54,800
Speaker 1: On the issue of Islamophobia, okay, because as somebody who

1628
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:58,120
Speaker 1: spent so much time in in Middle East, in the

1629
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:02,600
Speaker 1: Arab world in general, and obviously there's you know, not

1630
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:05,240
Speaker 1: all Arabs are Muslim, and not all Muslims or Arabs

1631
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:10,160
Speaker 1: and so forth. But Islam a phobia is one of

1632
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:14,360
Speaker 1: those phobias that is like anti Semitism.

1633
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:17,160
Speaker 2: It has it's on the left and the right. It

1634
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:19,800
Speaker 2: can be a type of unifier.

1635
01:27:19,439 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 1: That's not a healthy thing for a democracy.

1636
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:24,240
Speaker 2: You know.

1637
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:28,519
Speaker 1: Just tell me about your experience of sort of learning

1638
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:33,240
Speaker 1: the culture that sort of got rid of or didn't

1639
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:35,680
Speaker 1: allow a phobia to take to take in you.

1640
01:27:36,600 --> 01:27:39,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's because of travel. And this is

1641
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 3: why I'm such a big advocate of travel abroad in college.

1642
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:45,759
Speaker 3: Just to go places and not to an English language place,

1643
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:48,200
Speaker 3: you know, were unit a language. Go someplace that makes

1644
01:27:48,240 --> 01:27:50,519
Speaker 3: you feel uncomfortable, Go someplace where you don't know the

1645
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:54,320
Speaker 3: culture or learn the language, immerse yourself, and that's when

1646
01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:57,479
Speaker 3: you really start to understand that these people, even though

1647
01:27:57,680 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 3: they follow in all the religion and have many different

1648
01:28:00,640 --> 01:28:03,960
Speaker 3: habits and customs, they're like you in many different ways.

1649
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:06,000
Speaker 3: They want many of the same things. And I bring

1650
01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:09,000
Speaker 3: students and I brought groups over to the Middle East,

1651
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:11,160
Speaker 3: and that's what they find out when they really interact

1652
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 3: with people and not just stay in the five star

1653
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:16,400
Speaker 3: resort hotel. They go around to the rural areas, They

1654
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:19,439
Speaker 3: need people. They spend you know, an evening or even

1655
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:23,200
Speaker 3: overnight at some house and they learn about their lives

1656
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:26,720
Speaker 3: and that is the best way to get rid of

1657
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 3: these phobias and all of this misinformation that exists regarding Islam.

1658
01:28:33,240 --> 01:28:36,000
Speaker 1: I mean, look, there's we're seeing more Muslim Americans run

1659
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:38,600
Speaker 1: for office over the next ten years, and you're going

1660
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:41,280
Speaker 1: to see it. It is the tension that shows up

1661
01:28:41,439 --> 01:28:44,080
Speaker 1: in these communities, and it ends up being it could

1662
01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:46,080
Speaker 1: be New York City, it could be Minneapolis, it could

1663
01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:52,280
Speaker 1: be La like it's you do in it. It's definitely

1664
01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:55,120
Speaker 1: a tougher barrier to break than I think I fully appreciate.

1665
01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:58,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Jimmy Carter said something that was very

1666
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 3: interesting when a bot Warack Obama became president and a

1667
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 3: lot of this latent racism came out because he was

1668
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 3: the first African American president, and Jimmy Carter said, you know,

1669
01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:10,160
Speaker 3: this is a good thing. People were afraid. He said, no,

1670
01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:12,600
Speaker 3: this is a good We needed to come out and

1671
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:14,720
Speaker 3: only then can we address it. So maybe all of

1672
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:18,000
Speaker 3: these things, more Muslims becoming involved in the community. Yes,

1673
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:22,479
Speaker 3: it's causing some distress intentions and people are afraid of this, that,

1674
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:24,439
Speaker 3: and the other thing in sharia law coming in, which

1675
01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:27,640
Speaker 3: is ridiculous. Maybe all of this has to happen. We

1676
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:31,120
Speaker 3: need to get through this and have these discussions and

1677
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:35,400
Speaker 3: hopefully through education and reasonable people making reasonable decisions that

1678
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:36,240
Speaker 3: we can get past it.

1679
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1680
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:39,280
Speaker 1: I remember Collin Powell when he endorsed Obama the first time,

1681
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:42,800
Speaker 1: and he said, but his answer to that is lucky

1682
01:29:42,800 --> 01:29:44,400
Speaker 1: he's not Muslim, But so what if he was?

1683
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:46,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly right.

1684
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:47,000
Speaker 1: He tried.

1685
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:50,080
Speaker 2: It was like, why it doesn't if he was, it

1686
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:51,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't matter, right, this is it.

1687
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:54,680
Speaker 3: And there are many Muslims that are as Muslim as

1688
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 3: I am Roman Catholic, which is not very much anymore, right,

1689
01:29:58,479 --> 01:29:59,240
Speaker 3: called it's.

1690
01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:01,200
Speaker 2: More of a how you. It was more about your upbringing,

1691
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:03,280
Speaker 2: that your prep you now, how you live.

1692
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:05,439
Speaker 3: What type of person you are, these type of values

1693
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:10,920
Speaker 3: and and you know, it just takes understanding, it takes listening,

1694
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 3: it takes empathy, and we're in short supply of all

1695
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:16,040
Speaker 3: these things these days. But hopefully that'll change.

1696
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:17,879
Speaker 2: So you still hang your hat in San Antonio.

1697
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:21,479
Speaker 3: I do, I do, and probably we'll it'll be on

1698
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:24,360
Speaker 3: my grave, my grave site as well, because I love

1699
01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:27,320
Speaker 3: it here it's a you know, big city with a

1700
01:30:27,360 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 3: small town atmosphere.

1701
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 2: I have to say San Antonio, this San Antonio.

1702
01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:35,519
Speaker 1: Austin megaopolis that's developing, right, I mean, you know, it

1703
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:38,960
Speaker 1: feels like it's feels very similar to d C Baltimore

1704
01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:41,080
Speaker 1: or Dallas Fort Worth.

1705
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:45,200
Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, it's coming together, much more dominated by

1706
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:47,479
Speaker 3: Austin in the last decade than.

1707
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:50,160
Speaker 2: But I feel like, you know, maybe Wemby will change things, right.

1708
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:52,599
Speaker 3: I think so hopefully the team stays here long enough.

1709
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 1: Well, I know, I mean, you know, the Austin desperately

1710
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:57,960
Speaker 1: wants a basketball team. I think they have a better

1711
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:00,280
Speaker 1: shot at getting a baseball team. Like I love the

1712
01:31:00,320 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 1: idea of San Antonio getting having football and basketball and

1713
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 1: let Austin have the baseball.

1714
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:07,439
Speaker 3: I would have loved San Antonio instead of building their

1715
01:31:07,800 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 3: recent basketball arena where it is in the East Side,

1716
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 3: to build it like about not maybe not halfway, but

1717
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:15,599
Speaker 3: a little bit more closer on I thirty five North.

1718
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:19,519
Speaker 2: Well, is it that halfway between Austin and San Antonio

1719
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:20,559
Speaker 2: becoming its own city?

1720
01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:23,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, San Marcos and le bron Fels. It's it's as

1721
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:26,479
Speaker 3: you said, it's a megalopolis, and that would have drawn

1722
01:31:26,520 --> 01:31:29,600
Speaker 3: from both cities, and therefore, you know each team. I

1723
01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 3: don't even care if they call it the San Antonio

1724
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:34,639
Speaker 3: Austin Spurs or something. Just right, keep them here, draw

1725
01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:36,640
Speaker 3: from both cities, and that would have been great. But

1726
01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:40,240
Speaker 3: now we have a proposition going out to being elected

1727
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:43,000
Speaker 3: on tomorrow that will decide whether or not the Spurs

1728
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:46,920
Speaker 3: build a downtown arena. And if it doesn't pass, who knows,

1729
01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:48,280
Speaker 3: they may become the Austin Yeah.

1730
01:31:48,360 --> 01:31:50,599
Speaker 1: Boy, the timing of that with Wemby on the rise,

1731
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:52,760
Speaker 1: my guess is that probably helps it a couple of

1732
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:55,559
Speaker 1: points I would. I mean, cities usually reject this stuff

1733
01:31:55,600 --> 01:31:56,960
Speaker 1: though they don't like taxpayer dotas.

1734
01:31:57,000 --> 01:31:59,560
Speaker 3: We don't like it's, especially San Antonio. But you know

1735
01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:01,240
Speaker 3: there's in town.

1736
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:03,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to put this on my list of races

1737
01:32:03,439 --> 01:32:04,040
Speaker 2: to watch.

1738
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:07,280
Speaker 3: Prop on the proposition A and B.

1739
01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:09,280
Speaker 1: They're both key fantastic.

1740
01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:12,400
Speaker 2: Hey, Dave, this was great. I appreciate it getting.

1741
01:32:12,160 --> 01:32:14,280
Speaker 3: To know you well. I really enjoyed it too, Chuck,

1742
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:14,640
Speaker 3: thank you.

1743
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:17,200
Speaker 1: All right, Well, people should check out the book Dodgers

1744
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:18,840
Speaker 1: to Damascus. Uh.

1745
01:32:19,400 --> 01:32:20,920
Speaker 2: It's more of a Middle East book than it is

1746
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:21,679
Speaker 2: a baseball book.

1747
01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:24,240
Speaker 3: It is it is I spent a few years in

1748
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:26,000
Speaker 3: baseball and the rest of my life in Middle East.

1749
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:27,959
Speaker 3: So yeah, proportionally appropriate.

1750
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:30,640
Speaker 1: But you know, it's a it's a reminder that that

1751
01:32:30,800 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 1: sports is part of your education. It's you can't have

1752
01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:38,280
Speaker 1: a complete life in some ways, a complete education without

1753
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:40,479
Speaker 1: without sports.

1754
01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:43,439
Speaker 3: About sports, I'm having other life experiences. You know, there's

1755
01:32:43,479 --> 01:32:45,679
Speaker 3: competition and discomfort and failure.

1756
01:32:46,200 --> 01:32:50,040
Speaker 1: So no, it's terrific. Lesson. Congratulations And like I said,

1757
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:53,240
Speaker 1: I I appreciate you exposing yourself because that's what that

1758
01:32:53,439 --> 01:32:55,800
Speaker 1: is when you let somebody else write about you while

1759
01:32:55,800 --> 01:32:56,519
Speaker 1: you're still alive.

1760
01:32:56,880 --> 01:32:59,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks, thanks, Jock. I'm a rep in the end.

1761
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:02,000
Speaker 2: But anyway, David, great to know you.

1762
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:10,639
Speaker 3: Okay, take care of them about well.

1763
01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:13,280
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I think understanding the

1764
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:17,120
Speaker 1: modern Middle East is going to be almost an every

1765
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:24,200
Speaker 1: day exercise. To be frank, it's let's just say, nothing

1766
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:27,880
Speaker 1: feels permanent still, and I don't think anything will feel

1767
01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:31,919
Speaker 1: permanent for some time. But let's go into the podcast

1768
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:41,080
Speaker 1: time machine. So it's the week of November seventeenth through

1769
01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 1: the twenty third, and you know what I like to do,

1770
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:45,680
Speaker 1: go back in history and we're just looking at this

1771
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:49,080
Speaker 1: these seven days, and believe it or not, this is

1772
01:33:49,160 --> 01:33:53,160
Speaker 1: quite I stumbled onto what is conspiracy theory Week? In

1773
01:33:53,240 --> 01:34:00,160
Speaker 1: American history? Three moments in particular have anniversaries this week.

1774
01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:05,760
Speaker 1: The Jonestown massacre, the kool Aid drinking November.

1775
01:34:05,439 --> 01:34:06,720
Speaker 2: Eighteenth, nineteen seventy eight.

1776
01:34:07,479 --> 01:34:10,759
Speaker 1: There's, of course, the jfk assassination November twenty second, nineteen

1777
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:14,479
Speaker 1: sixty three, and the eighteen and a half minute gap

1778
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 1: in the Nixon tapes was revealed on November twenty first,

1779
01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:23,679
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, three events that on their own would

1780
01:34:23,680 --> 01:34:27,879
Speaker 1: be enough to bend the country's imagination, but together, stacked

1781
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:30,519
Speaker 1: on the same week of the calendar, I think they

1782
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:33,160
Speaker 1: tell us something a bit more profound about why Americans

1783
01:34:33,240 --> 01:34:38,240
Speaker 1: believe conspiracies and why those beliefs are so durable. And

1784
01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:40,640
Speaker 1: by the way, this is also the same energy right

1785
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:44,120
Speaker 1: now fueling our current national fixation on the Epstein files,

1786
01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 1: where the fantastical spreads faster than any known fact. But

1787
01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:53,640
Speaker 1: we only have one type of person to blame, the

1788
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:56,880
Speaker 1: elected American elected official, right, So let's get to the

1789
01:34:56,920 --> 01:35:00,120
Speaker 1: time machine. So we're going to start with Jonestown. That's

1790
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:04,519
Speaker 1: when conspiracy thinking became catastrophic. It's November. We're going to

1791
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:08,200
Speaker 1: go back to November eighteenth, nineteen seventy eight in Jonestown. Now,

1792
01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:10,639
Speaker 1: a lot of people think of Jonestown as a cult tragedy,

1793
01:35:10,680 --> 01:35:12,920
Speaker 1: and it is, but it's also the story of how

1794
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:18,719
Speaker 1: a closed information system can destroy a human judgment. Jim Jones,

1795
01:35:19,080 --> 01:35:22,960
Speaker 1: the cult leader, didn't just isolate his followers physically. He

1796
01:35:23,120 --> 01:35:28,120
Speaker 1: isolated them psychologically, emotionally, and informationally. He convinced them that

1797
01:35:28,200 --> 01:35:30,880
Speaker 1: outsiders were coming to kill them. He convinced them that

1798
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:34,360
Speaker 1: only he understood the truth. He convinced them that everyone else,

1799
01:35:34,439 --> 01:35:37,840
Speaker 1: from the media to the US government was lying. Perhaps

1800
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:41,439
Speaker 1: he alone could fix it. But I digress. But here's

1801
01:35:41,479 --> 01:35:44,960
Speaker 1: the terrifying part. The more erratic Jones became, the more

1802
01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:49,840
Speaker 1: his followers trusted him. Because once you buy into total

1803
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:54,439
Speaker 1: this sort of total narrative, once you build your identity

1804
01:35:54,560 --> 01:36:01,519
Speaker 1: around a conspiratorial worldview, facts are no longer persued. Facts

1805
01:36:01,600 --> 01:36:07,519
Speaker 1: become evidence of the conspiracy against you. Jonestown is not

1806
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:12,120
Speaker 1: a government conspiracy. It's the consequence of conspiratorial thinking, and

1807
01:36:12,240 --> 01:36:16,000
Speaker 1: it becomes a template, decades before social media for how

1808
01:36:16,040 --> 01:36:20,439
Speaker 1: a charismatic figure can sever followers from reality and create

1809
01:36:20,479 --> 01:36:24,920
Speaker 1: a world where the fantastical is accepted without question. It's

1810
01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:28,760
Speaker 1: why QAnon didn't surprise psychologists. It's why people fall for

1811
01:36:28,920 --> 01:36:33,800
Speaker 1: online calls. Jonestown is a modern cautionary tale of what

1812
01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:39,440
Speaker 1: happens when people choose narrative over truth. My god, imagine

1813
01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:45,120
Speaker 1: how big jonestown might have gotten with social media. All right,

1814
01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:51,640
Speaker 1: let's to the second, the second big conspiratorial event in

1815
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:55,559
Speaker 1: our timeline this week, the conspiracy the public never accepted

1816
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:58,320
Speaker 1: fourteen years earlier, the same week, November twenty second, nineteen

1817
01:36:58,360 --> 01:37:03,000
Speaker 1: sixty three, John is assassinated in Dallas. If Jonestown shows

1818
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:05,880
Speaker 1: what happens when people buy into a false conspiracy, the

1819
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:09,639
Speaker 1: JFK assassination shows what happens when the official story fails

1820
01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:15,759
Speaker 1: to convince the public. The Warren Report was assembled very quickly.

1821
01:37:17,720 --> 01:37:21,000
Speaker 1: The evidence was confusing. The single bullet theory sounded well,

1822
01:37:21,200 --> 01:37:25,040
Speaker 1: pretty implausible to the average American, and the result was

1823
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:28,080
Speaker 1: a permanent fracture in public trust. In fact, I always

1824
01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 1: go back. I mean, if you look at the original

1825
01:37:30,360 --> 01:37:33,640
Speaker 1: sin of when did you know? If you look at

1826
01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:36,439
Speaker 1: baby boomers today, right, they grew up with this, This

1827
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:40,559
Speaker 1: was their coming of age. Moment was government they believed

1828
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:43,920
Speaker 1: lying to them about what happened to their president, right,

1829
01:37:44,240 --> 01:37:47,439
Speaker 1: And then just about every subsequent generation would have a

1830
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:50,439
Speaker 1: little bit more of the government lion to them, and

1831
01:37:50,560 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 1: we'd chip away, chip away, chip away. But this was

1832
01:37:54,240 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 1: a big one because the generation before the Baby Boomers

1833
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:02,559
Speaker 1: trusted their government. But for millions of Americans, JFK's death

1834
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:05,880
Speaker 1: marks the moment when they stopped believing the government reflexively

1835
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:10,280
Speaker 1: and started believing the government selectively, not because they wanted

1836
01:38:10,320 --> 01:38:13,080
Speaker 1: a conspiracy, but because the government couldn't explain the tragedy

1837
01:38:13,120 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 1: in a way that felt complete, transparent, or sufficiently humble.

1838
01:38:18,240 --> 01:38:22,320
Speaker 1: This is where CIA theory is, mafia theories, castro theories,

1839
01:38:22,560 --> 01:38:27,519
Speaker 1: LBJ theories, deep state theories. They all began here. But

1840
01:38:27,640 --> 01:38:33,320
Speaker 1: the more important important point is this after JFK, Americans

1841
01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:35,840
Speaker 1: no longer needed evidence for conspiracy.

1842
01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:37,479
Speaker 2: They only needed doubt.

1843
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:42,920
Speaker 1: JFK didn't create the conspiracy culture, but it created the

1844
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:47,920
Speaker 1: psychological conditions for the next event that did. And that

1845
01:38:48,040 --> 01:38:50,960
Speaker 1: brings us to a year that still feels like a wound.

1846
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:55,040
Speaker 1: It's nineteen seventy three, the Nixon tape gap. The conspiracy

1847
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:57,320
Speaker 1: that was well was a conspiracy.

1848
01:38:57,320 --> 01:38:57,760
Speaker 2: It was true.

1849
01:38:58,120 --> 01:39:02,639
Speaker 1: Two weeks before Thanksgiving, No First, nineteen seventy three, America

1850
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:04,719
Speaker 1: learns that there is an eighteen and a half minute

1851
01:39:04,840 --> 01:39:07,920
Speaker 1: gap in one of Nixon's Oval office tapes, the very

1852
01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:10,040
Speaker 1: tape that might have shown what he knew about Watergate.

1853
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:14,880
Speaker 1: This is the moment that permanently rewires the American brain.

1854
01:39:15,400 --> 01:39:18,320
Speaker 1: After years of being told trust us, after years of

1855
01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:22,080
Speaker 1: dismissing accusations as partisan, and after years of insisting that

1856
01:39:22,280 --> 01:39:26,280
Speaker 1: critics of Nixon were hysterical, here it was a missing tape,

1857
01:39:27,080 --> 01:39:32,639
Speaker 1: not metaphorically literally an erased tape, Thank you, Rosemary Woods.

1858
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:37,240
Speaker 1: And the White House explanation was so implausible secretaries accidentally

1859
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:42,120
Speaker 1: leaning on pedals fingers slipping, that it practically invited conspiracy.

1860
01:39:43,120 --> 01:39:45,280
Speaker 1: The lesson for the American public was brutal and simple.

1861
01:39:45,400 --> 01:39:48,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes the conspiracy theory is true, and sometimes the cover

1862
01:39:49,000 --> 01:39:52,479
Speaker 1: up is even dumber than the crime. And once that happens,

1863
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:56,200
Speaker 1: once government credibility is broken in this specific way, you

1864
01:39:56,240 --> 01:39:58,439
Speaker 1: don't get it back through press releases, you don't get

1865
01:39:58,439 --> 01:40:00,840
Speaker 1: it back through official investigation, and you don't even get

1866
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:04,040
Speaker 1: it back through prosecutions. And of course we never did

1867
01:40:04,160 --> 01:40:08,479
Speaker 1: prosecute you know, I think when I first started my

1868
01:40:08,560 --> 01:40:12,439
Speaker 1: time cast time machine, one of the I started with

1869
01:40:12,600 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 1: the pardon, with Ford's pardon and a mistake. I think

1870
01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:21,240
Speaker 1: now we see that was clearly I don't think it's

1871
01:40:21,439 --> 01:40:23,559
Speaker 1: it's even a close call anymore, that that was clearly

1872
01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:29,120
Speaker 1: a mistake, because we never did get justice for what

1873
01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:33,800
Speaker 1: was done. But Watergate taught Americans that powerful people sometimes lie,

1874
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:38,000
Speaker 1: and institutions sometimes protect those lies. And once you know that,

1875
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:42,000
Speaker 1: you never unknow it. And then it just sort of

1876
01:40:42,080 --> 01:40:45,600
Speaker 1: sits there, and it chips away and chips away, and

1877
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:48,120
Speaker 1: we wonder why we have a government we don't trust today.

1878
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:49,720
Speaker 2: So let's look at sort of the.

1879
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:56,320
Speaker 1: Modern parallel, right the Epstein files, fast forward to the present,

1880
01:40:56,479 --> 01:41:00,120
Speaker 1: and conspiracy is the default. It's not the exception. Look

1881
01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:02,479
Speaker 1: at this Epstein moment. We're all living through. People assume

1882
01:41:02,520 --> 01:41:06,719
Speaker 1: elites lie, people assume institutions are hiding things. People assume

1883
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 1: the truth is always worse, and people assume if there

1884
01:41:09,240 --> 01:41:11,439
Speaker 1: is a conspiracy, it's probably bigger and darker than anything

1885
01:41:11,479 --> 01:41:15,960
Speaker 1: the government admits. Now, I'm an Ockham's razor person. I

1886
01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:18,719
Speaker 1: think if there was something even darker, deeper, we there'd

1887
01:41:18,760 --> 01:41:20,920
Speaker 1: at least be a leak about it somewhere, but we

1888
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:21,640
Speaker 1: haven't gotten that.

1889
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:22,479
Speaker 2: But still.

1890
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:28,920
Speaker 1: Conspiracies persist. But it's because of Johnstown, because of JFK,

1891
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:31,760
Speaker 1: because of Nixon, because of IRAQ WMDs, because of the

1892
01:41:31,920 --> 01:41:36,160
Speaker 1: NSA surveillance revelations, because of January six. Americans now process

1893
01:41:36,320 --> 01:41:38,920
Speaker 1: every new event through a lens shaped by generations of

1894
01:41:39,040 --> 01:41:47,560
Speaker 1: government betrayal, government confusion, and partial truths at best. So

1895
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:49,160
Speaker 1: just look at what we did with Epstein.

1896
01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:52,800
Speaker 2: Right, the conspiracy theory arrived.

1897
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:57,519
Speaker 1: First, the facts are We still don't have all the facts,

1898
01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:00,479
Speaker 1: do we They're arriving later. The public decides what it

1899
01:42:00,520 --> 01:42:04,080
Speaker 1: believes before the evidence even begins to land. It's not

1900
01:42:04,200 --> 01:42:06,240
Speaker 1: that people want to believe in sane things. It's that

1901
01:42:06,360 --> 01:42:09,479
Speaker 1: the factual world is moving slower than the fantastical one.

1902
01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:13,280
Speaker 1: We have more information than ever, but we have less

1903
01:42:13,280 --> 01:42:17,000
Speaker 1: trust than ever, and in that environment, speculation fills every

1904
01:42:17,160 --> 01:42:20,280
Speaker 1: gap instantly. And then you look look at our ridiculous

1905
01:42:20,360 --> 01:42:23,720
Speaker 1: algorithms that sort of reward those that have a new

1906
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:28,439
Speaker 1: theory rather than those that have factual information. Right, if

1907
01:42:28,520 --> 01:42:31,439
Speaker 1: I were to say, right now, boy, it's got to

1908
01:42:31,520 --> 01:42:36,559
Speaker 1: be that Gallaine Maxwell knows the origin story of Malania

1909
01:42:36,680 --> 01:42:41,640
Speaker 1: Trump and how Malania and Donald met boy the algorithms

1910
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:44,320
Speaker 1: would go crazy, and this video could go viral because

1911
01:42:44,360 --> 01:42:46,640
Speaker 1: I'd say it, because I'd say that I have no

1912
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:51,519
Speaker 1: evidence of this. Okay, I certainly am trying to figure

1913
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:53,880
Speaker 1: out why the president is hiding so much of this

1914
01:42:54,040 --> 01:42:58,760
Speaker 1: and why he seems to be so scared of Gallaine Maxwell.

1915
01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:04,120
Speaker 1: So your mind wanders, and unfortunately, because of how poor

1916
01:43:04,280 --> 01:43:09,439
Speaker 1: government's been about being transparent about things including the jfk

1917
01:43:10,479 --> 01:43:17,800
Speaker 1: assassination being frankly exhibit A, how do you tell an

1918
01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: American not to go down that conspiratorial rabbit hole? This

1919
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:24,400
Speaker 1: is where we are. So what do we take away

1920
01:43:24,400 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 1: from this in this week in American history? Here's the

1921
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:30,599
Speaker 1: common threat. We are conspiracy prone, not because we're gullible,

1922
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:34,040
Speaker 1: but because our institutions have repeatedly given us enough reason,

1923
01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:37,760
Speaker 1: just enough reason to suspect that we're not being told

1924
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:42,360
Speaker 1: the full story. When leaders lie, even tiny lies, they

1925
01:43:42,439 --> 01:43:45,800
Speaker 1: leave behind just enough ambiguity for our collective imagination to

1926
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:50,080
Speaker 1: go to work. And when institutions are slow, opaque, or

1927
01:43:50,120 --> 01:43:54,559
Speaker 1: even arrogant, doubt becomes a form of self defense. When

1928
01:43:54,600 --> 01:43:57,759
Speaker 1: information drips out instead, of flows out. The vacuum fills

1929
01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:01,280
Speaker 1: the narrative, and when the officials story doesn't feel complete,

1930
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:05,600
Speaker 1: the unofficial ones become irresistible. So I'll leave you this.

1931
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:10,439
Speaker 1: We Americans can handle plenty of bad news. What we

1932
01:44:10,520 --> 01:44:15,360
Speaker 1: cannot handle is missing news. You got to tell us everything.

1933
01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:19,439
Speaker 1: Don't hold back, because if you do, if we find

1934
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:24,000
Speaker 1: out and you held back, it is so much worse.

1935
01:44:24,880 --> 01:44:28,200
Speaker 1: The more than institutions give us half truths, delayed truths,

1936
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:34,000
Speaker 1: redacted truths, or contradictory truths or alternative facts, the more

1937
01:44:34,040 --> 01:44:38,000
Speaker 1: this week in history becomes every week in our political system.

1938
01:44:40,080 --> 01:44:40,600
Speaker 2: So there you go.

1939
01:44:40,840 --> 01:44:45,160
Speaker 1: Enjoy conspiracy Week in the Todd Cash a time machine.

1940
01:44:45,280 --> 01:44:50,080
Speaker 1: By the way, if you're looking for some good jonestown documentaries,

1941
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:53,360
Speaker 1: there are a ton of them out there. They're all fascinating.

1942
01:44:53,400 --> 01:44:55,640
Speaker 1: There was a couple recently, I think on Netflix that

1943
01:44:55,720 --> 01:45:01,400
Speaker 1: definitely is worth your time. My friend Jeff Morley JFK.

1944
01:45:01,600 --> 01:45:04,880
Speaker 1: Fax is a terrific substack. He goes through, He goes

1945
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:08,880
Speaker 1: through all the government releases the way you would want

1946
01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:11,519
Speaker 1: a reported to do it. You know, yes, he has

1947
01:45:11,560 --> 01:45:15,439
Speaker 1: his theories, but he separates the facts from the theories.

1948
01:45:16,520 --> 01:45:18,120
Speaker 1: I wish I had a really good place for you

1949
01:45:18,240 --> 01:45:20,040
Speaker 1: to go for all things having to do with filling

1950
01:45:20,080 --> 01:45:22,880
Speaker 1: the gaps and Watergate. But in some ways, I think

1951
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:27,840
Speaker 1: I think we've filled we have between Garrett Graft's most

1952
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:32,040
Speaker 1: recent book about Watergate, plus everything Woodward and Bernstein has done,

1953
01:45:33,160 --> 01:45:36,000
Speaker 1: we have a pretty decent handle on them. So you

1954
01:45:36,040 --> 01:45:45,400
Speaker 1: know what this means. It's college football time. Okay, So

1955
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:49,080
Speaker 1: Miami kept up its end of the bargain, had a

1956
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:52,559
Speaker 1: nice I will say I was pleasantly surprised. There's there's

1957
01:45:52,720 --> 01:45:57,280
Speaker 1: nothing like a Hurricane's game when the defense sort of

1958
01:45:57,600 --> 01:46:01,360
Speaker 1: sparks things and the pick six early set the tone.

1959
01:46:01,960 --> 01:46:05,240
Speaker 1: The offense started to hum. Yes, NC State didn't have

1960
01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:08,720
Speaker 1: the best of defenses, but the fact is Miami won

1961
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:11,759
Speaker 1: by a margin that they should win by. They covered

1962
01:46:11,840 --> 01:46:15,719
Speaker 1: the spread. I think they doubled actually the actual spread.

1963
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:19,760
Speaker 1: So it was a it was a decisive victory. And

1964
01:46:20,080 --> 01:46:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, some things went Miami's way as far as

1965
01:46:24,200 --> 01:46:26,920
Speaker 1: you know, teams that needed to lose ahead of them,

1966
01:46:27,320 --> 01:46:31,080
Speaker 1: A few teams did. Texas lost, that's a big one.

1967
01:46:31,120 --> 01:46:34,120
Speaker 1: They're not you know, they're they're not going to get

1968
01:46:34,160 --> 01:46:36,679
Speaker 1: in even a victory over Texas. A and m they're

1969
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:39,960
Speaker 1: not a three loss team, is not yet going to

1970
01:46:40,080 --> 01:46:44,240
Speaker 1: make the playoff. A couple other things, Boston College had

1971
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:48,280
Speaker 1: Georgia Tech on the ropes. You know, I certainly would

1972
01:46:48,400 --> 01:46:50,400
Speaker 1: like to see Miami be able to play itself into

1973
01:46:50,439 --> 01:46:53,280
Speaker 1: the playoff, not having to wait to see if their

1974
01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:56,120
Speaker 1: body of work will be considered better or worse than

1975
01:46:56,160 --> 01:46:57,880
Speaker 1: the body of work of other two loss teams. But

1976
01:46:57,920 --> 01:46:59,840
Speaker 1: I want to get to that here in a minute.

1977
01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:04,160
Speaker 1: But for the look in fairness, I think it was

1978
01:47:04,240 --> 01:47:07,800
Speaker 1: the best game mim he's played since Notre Dame and

1979
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:10,680
Speaker 1: in South Florida, where two which were probably the two

1980
01:47:10,720 --> 01:47:14,400
Speaker 1: most complete games they've played all year. Even the Florida game,

1981
01:47:14,439 --> 01:47:15,960
Speaker 1: they didn't play a great first half. It was the

1982
01:47:16,000 --> 01:47:18,559
Speaker 1: second half that they sort of put that game away.

1983
01:47:18,920 --> 01:47:21,920
Speaker 1: But but Notre Dame, they played three great quarters. They

1984
01:47:22,040 --> 01:47:24,800
Speaker 1: let they let Notre Dame sort of make the game

1985
01:47:24,880 --> 01:47:26,479
Speaker 1: look like it was a close game. And I think

1986
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:30,880
Speaker 1: this this. You know, they basically were ahead by double

1987
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:33,200
Speaker 1: digits most of the game. Notre Dame gets a lay

1988
01:47:33,280 --> 01:47:36,840
Speaker 1: touchdown and so the game looked closer than it actually was.

1989
01:47:38,479 --> 01:47:40,920
Speaker 1: But this was a pretty complete game they got. This

1990
01:47:41,080 --> 01:47:43,680
Speaker 1: was the last home game senior Day, they got two

1991
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:47,120
Speaker 1: more road games, Virginia Tech and then Pit. And let's

1992
01:47:47,120 --> 01:47:50,240
Speaker 1: talk about Pitt because Notre Dame now got to face

1993
01:47:50,280 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 1: a PIT team that did not chose to play an

1994
01:47:53,280 --> 01:47:56,839
Speaker 1: exhibition game. Now, I'm not saying the players that actually

1995
01:47:56,920 --> 01:48:00,600
Speaker 1: played in the game didn't play hard. They did, but

1996
01:48:00,760 --> 01:48:03,200
Speaker 1: the coaching staff made a decision that they were not

1997
01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:06,360
Speaker 1: going to play to win this game. Anybody that was

1998
01:48:06,400 --> 01:48:09,679
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty you could play, but you know, they'd

1999
01:48:09,760 --> 01:48:13,519
Speaker 1: rather have him rest for the conference their last two

2000
01:48:13,520 --> 01:48:16,280
Speaker 1: conference games, which are Georgia Tech and Miami. They chose

2001
01:48:16,360 --> 01:48:19,080
Speaker 1: to do that. The coach went public earlier in the

2002
01:48:19,160 --> 01:48:22,479
Speaker 1: week and said, it doesn't this game was meaningless to them.

2003
01:48:22,800 --> 01:48:25,639
Speaker 1: This was akin to a preseason game, an exhibition game.

2004
01:48:25,680 --> 01:48:27,840
Speaker 1: They could lose by one hundred, it didn't matter. Their

2005
01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:30,400
Speaker 1: path to a playoff did not go through Notre Dame.

2006
01:48:30,640 --> 01:48:32,880
Speaker 1: Their path to the playoff went through making it to

2007
01:48:32,920 --> 01:48:35,720
Speaker 1: the ACC Conference title game. And if they went out,

2008
01:48:35,880 --> 01:48:39,280
Speaker 1: they will have a place in the title game, which

2009
01:48:39,360 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 1: brings me to and then, by the way, same thing

2010
01:48:42,400 --> 01:48:44,920
Speaker 1: just happened a week earlier with Notre Dame when they

2011
01:48:44,920 --> 01:48:47,560
Speaker 1: played Navy. When Navy decided not to play one of

2012
01:48:47,600 --> 01:48:51,720
Speaker 1: their quarterbacks in that game, Horvat saving him because he

2013
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:54,120
Speaker 1: had been somewhat he'd been dinged up a little bit.

2014
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:57,000
Speaker 1: They wanted to basically give him a week off before

2015
01:48:57,080 --> 01:49:00,479
Speaker 1: their conference game against South Florida. By the way, that

2016
01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:03,200
Speaker 1: was a terrific game. I watched a lot of that

2017
01:49:03,320 --> 01:49:07,080
Speaker 1: game that was in my multibox. That was a fun

2018
01:49:07,160 --> 01:49:09,759
Speaker 1: game to watch, and it was a shootout and somehow

2019
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:15,760
Speaker 1: South Florida couldn't stop Navy very often. And Navy won

2020
01:49:15,840 --> 01:49:17,600
Speaker 1: that game, and they still have a path to the

2021
01:49:17,640 --> 01:49:22,599
Speaker 1: college football playoff again through the Group of five playoff slot. Again,

2022
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 1: the Notre Dame game was meaningless to them in their

2023
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:27,040
Speaker 1: attempt to get.

2024
01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:27,679
Speaker 2: To the playoff.

2025
01:49:29,439 --> 01:49:32,080
Speaker 1: So now Notre Dame and this, you know, I saw

2026
01:49:32,160 --> 01:49:35,800
Speaker 1: that ESPN was promoting this win on Pitt as if

2027
01:49:35,840 --> 01:49:38,640
Speaker 1: it was an impressive win that hey, they they had.

2028
01:49:38,880 --> 01:49:41,519
Speaker 1: They made it part of their ticker lead, and they

2029
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:44,000
Speaker 1: made it seem as if that this they played an

2030
01:49:44,040 --> 01:49:47,800
Speaker 1: exhibition game. Pitt did not take this game seriously. And

2031
01:49:47,960 --> 01:49:50,360
Speaker 1: I do think the College Football Committee, if there, if

2032
01:49:50,439 --> 01:49:52,920
Speaker 1: this committee is serious, and I am I am a

2033
01:49:53,000 --> 01:49:56,439
Speaker 1: huge skeptic. Given that three years in a row, they

2034
01:49:56,520 --> 01:49:59,080
Speaker 1: have made decisions that were not about football teams that

2035
01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:02,320
Speaker 1: were instead about what ESPN wanted or what the SEC wanted,

2036
01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:06,320
Speaker 1: which maybe one and the same. Right, we go back

2037
01:50:06,360 --> 01:50:08,160
Speaker 1: to the decision not to put Florida State in the

2038
01:50:08,439 --> 01:50:11,400
Speaker 1: end of the playoff when they were undefeated after winning

2039
01:50:11,400 --> 01:50:14,080
Speaker 1: their conference title game, and they just chose not to

2040
01:50:14,120 --> 01:50:19,160
Speaker 1: put Florida State in. Right. So, if you're wondering why

2041
01:50:19,720 --> 01:50:24,080
Speaker 1: I have have been so hard on ESPN and the

2042
01:50:24,200 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 1: SEC about this, is because not that they might do this,

2043
01:50:27,160 --> 01:50:30,719
Speaker 1: because they've already done it once and then they arguably

2044
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:34,000
Speaker 1: did it last year. Miami absolutely belonged in that playoff

2045
01:50:34,040 --> 01:50:35,479
Speaker 1: and they chose not to put Miami in because they

2046
01:50:35,479 --> 01:50:37,000
Speaker 1: didn't want to put in a third ACC team.

2047
01:50:37,479 --> 01:50:39,439
Speaker 2: They have decided the ACC isn't.

2048
01:50:39,240 --> 01:50:42,200
Speaker 1: Worthy of having two or three teams on any given year.

2049
01:50:43,960 --> 01:50:47,400
Speaker 1: That's just a decision they make, period. There is not

2050
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:50,439
Speaker 1: I would argue, not as many metrics that would actually

2051
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:55,519
Speaker 1: argue for that than others want to say. But this

2052
01:50:55,760 --> 01:50:57,519
Speaker 1: is the decision, yes, or they're not going to put

2053
01:50:57,560 --> 01:51:01,439
Speaker 1: in two Big twelve teams, and they're gonna try really

2054
01:51:01,479 --> 01:51:04,360
Speaker 1: hard not to put in two ACC teams. We'll see

2055
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:09,080
Speaker 1: if Miami can sort of force the envelope. But explain

2056
01:51:09,120 --> 01:51:10,840
Speaker 1: to me, I mean to me, if you were to

2057
01:51:11,000 --> 01:51:13,760
Speaker 1: treat Notre Dame as sort of instead of knowing that

2058
01:51:13,840 --> 01:51:15,720
Speaker 1: it was Notre Dame. And I just gave you the

2059
01:51:15,800 --> 01:51:19,400
Speaker 1: profile of team A, Team B, Team C, Team D. Right,

2060
01:51:20,200 --> 01:51:22,439
Speaker 1: there is no way Notre Dame is a playoff team.

2061
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:25,080
Speaker 1: They don't have a good Their best win is USC,

2062
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:27,640
Speaker 1: who may or may not be a competitor for a

2063
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:31,639
Speaker 1: playoff spot. And then two of their victories are against

2064
01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:35,160
Speaker 1: teams that chose essentially to pull some of their starters

2065
01:51:36,200 --> 01:51:39,599
Speaker 1: so that they didn't face the toughest version of PITT.

2066
01:51:39,720 --> 01:51:42,960
Speaker 1: Miami's going to face the toughest version of PITT. They

2067
01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:45,759
Speaker 1: didn't face the toughest version of Navy. South Florida faced

2068
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:50,400
Speaker 1: the toughest version of Navy. So you know, I I

2069
01:51:51,560 --> 01:51:54,880
Speaker 1: that that should matter if the head to head isn't

2070
01:51:54,920 --> 01:51:57,880
Speaker 1: going to matter. Now, obviously the most important thing ought

2071
01:51:57,920 --> 01:52:00,160
Speaker 1: to be the head to head. Notre Dame loses to

2072
01:52:00,200 --> 01:52:02,240
Speaker 1: Miami and they're both ten and two, it's obvious what

2073
01:52:02,760 --> 01:52:06,400
Speaker 1: any actual tie breaking scenario in any other league, the

2074
01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:08,160
Speaker 1: first tiebreaker is head to head.

2075
01:52:09,400 --> 01:52:10,280
Speaker 2: Now they don't.

2076
01:52:10,560 --> 01:52:13,759
Speaker 1: There is no there are no rules, right, this committee

2077
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:16,960
Speaker 1: has never said what the metrics are to get into

2078
01:52:17,000 --> 01:52:20,960
Speaker 1: the playoff. They don't release a criteria. You know what

2079
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:24,040
Speaker 1: that means, because they make up the criteria when they

2080
01:52:24,240 --> 01:52:28,040
Speaker 1: when it suits them. Right, If if it's easier to

2081
01:52:28,320 --> 01:52:30,120
Speaker 1: make a case for a team to get in because

2082
01:52:30,160 --> 01:52:32,240
Speaker 1: of their losses, they'll say, hey, they have great losses.

2083
01:52:32,479 --> 01:52:35,840
Speaker 1: And if it's easier to make a case for a

2084
01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:37,439
Speaker 1: team to get in because they have great wins, and

2085
01:52:37,439 --> 01:52:41,320
Speaker 1: they'll say, hey, they have great wins. Right, But they

2086
01:52:41,400 --> 01:52:44,960
Speaker 1: don't seem to have a standardized metric on what matters

2087
01:52:45,080 --> 01:52:50,320
Speaker 1: more wins or losses when you're trying to differentiate between

2088
01:52:50,760 --> 01:52:52,960
Speaker 1: a ten and two team or three ten and two teams.

2089
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:54,559
Speaker 1: In fact, we're gonna have a lot of this, right,

2090
01:52:54,600 --> 01:52:56,640
Speaker 1: You're gonna have You may have ten and two Oklahoma,

2091
01:52:57,080 --> 01:53:00,280
Speaker 1: ten and two Notre Dame, ten and two, Alabama, uh

2092
01:53:00,479 --> 01:53:02,280
Speaker 1: and ten into in Miami. And let's just take a

2093
01:53:02,320 --> 01:53:06,439
Speaker 1: look at this. Okay, Alabama, one of their losses is

2094
01:53:06,479 --> 01:53:08,280
Speaker 1: a team Miami beat. Do you think that's going to

2095
01:53:08,360 --> 01:53:10,760
Speaker 1: matter to the committee. I'm not naive. I know it's

2096
01:53:10,760 --> 01:53:12,640
Speaker 1: not going to matter. I'll give Alabama this. They have

2097
01:53:12,720 --> 01:53:15,559
Speaker 1: the best win of the four because Alabama beat Georgia,

2098
01:53:16,479 --> 01:53:23,840
Speaker 1: so they will get credit for that. Oklahoma has now

2099
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:28,320
Speaker 1: Alabama is their best win, right They lost to Texas,

2100
01:53:28,720 --> 01:53:31,679
Speaker 1: a team that Florida beat, a team that Miami whipped

2101
01:53:32,960 --> 01:53:37,519
Speaker 1: before Florida was giving up okay, before the whole firing

2102
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,479
Speaker 1: and all that business. And then of course when you

2103
01:53:40,560 --> 01:53:46,240
Speaker 1: compare Miami Notre Dame, Miami beat Notre Dame. Obviously I'm

2104
01:53:46,280 --> 01:53:49,280
Speaker 1: singling those four teams out because I am that if

2105
01:53:49,320 --> 01:53:51,439
Speaker 1: they all four ten and two and there's three slots

2106
01:53:51,439 --> 01:53:54,880
Speaker 1: for those four teams, I know this committee is going

2107
01:53:54,920 --> 01:53:58,120
Speaker 1: to try to keep Miami out. And if you looked

2108
01:53:58,120 --> 01:54:00,479
Speaker 1: at him in a blind survey, Miami argue at believest

2109
01:54:01,040 --> 01:54:02,880
Speaker 1: the second best of those four. If you're going to

2110
01:54:02,960 --> 01:54:06,360
Speaker 1: do that, let alone third or fourth.

2111
01:54:08,000 --> 01:54:10,880
Speaker 2: So I all I am.

2112
01:54:11,439 --> 01:54:14,120
Speaker 1: I want to try to give the assume that some

2113
01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:17,000
Speaker 1: people on this committee take their job seriously and are

2114
01:54:17,160 --> 01:54:19,960
Speaker 1: simply trying to get the best teams. The fact is

2115
01:54:20,080 --> 01:54:24,320
Speaker 1: Miami's probably got one of the three best rosters in

2116
01:54:24,400 --> 01:54:29,639
Speaker 1: the nation, easily, the combination best offensive and defensive lines

2117
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:34,720
Speaker 1: going for whatever reason, the committee decided to overly punish

2118
01:54:34,800 --> 01:54:39,440
Speaker 1: Miami for losing a gamed SMU on the road. They

2119
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:42,040
Speaker 1: didn't punish him as much for the first loss to Louisville,

2120
01:54:42,040 --> 01:54:44,080
Speaker 1: but they punished him a lot for that SMU loss.

2121
01:54:44,280 --> 01:54:49,320
Speaker 1: It was a way over punishments in this idea that

2122
01:54:49,480 --> 01:54:55,520
Speaker 1: when you lose somehow should should matter. And I know

2123
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:57,800
Speaker 1: this has always sort of been out there because of

2124
01:54:57,920 --> 01:55:01,280
Speaker 1: the of the screwyway college football work. But again, in

2125
01:55:01,360 --> 01:55:05,320
Speaker 1: the NFL, your record's your record, and if there's a tiebreaker,

2126
01:55:05,360 --> 01:55:10,720
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter when that game happened. Right. The head

2127
01:55:10,760 --> 01:55:11,720
Speaker 1: to head is the head to head.

2128
01:55:14,000 --> 01:55:16,720
Speaker 2: So look, Mimi's got to do its part.

2129
01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:20,800
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm still you know, you know, the irony is

2130
01:55:20,840 --> 01:55:25,000
Speaker 1: that Miami should be undefeated, shouldn't have lost either one

2131
01:55:25,000 --> 01:55:30,120
Speaker 1: of those games. Sort of coach farted those games away, arguably,

2132
01:55:32,760 --> 01:55:35,040
Speaker 1: and they were both winnable even at the very end,

2133
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:38,480
Speaker 1: but they got coach farted away. I think I'm gonna

2134
01:55:38,480 --> 01:55:43,000
Speaker 1: try to use that term going forward, coach farting. But

2135
01:55:43,080 --> 01:55:45,640
Speaker 1: we'll see what the committee does. But the thing that

2136
01:55:45,760 --> 01:55:48,680
Speaker 1: I that I want to see whether this committee is

2137
01:55:48,760 --> 01:55:51,720
Speaker 1: taking itself seriously at all, is the fact that Notre

2138
01:55:51,800 --> 01:55:56,680
Speaker 1: Dame has two teams on their schedule that decided not

2139
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:01,400
Speaker 1: to play to one, and this is the look Notre

2140
01:56:01,480 --> 01:56:03,760
Speaker 1: Dame should be ding for not being in a conference

2141
01:56:04,680 --> 01:56:09,160
Speaker 1: playing conference games. The stakes are higher when you don't

2142
01:56:09,240 --> 01:56:12,680
Speaker 1: have a conference game, there's no stakes. Yes, the stakes

2143
01:56:12,680 --> 01:56:17,200
Speaker 1: are higher, they have to keep winning, but the conference

2144
01:56:17,280 --> 01:56:22,000
Speaker 1: game is so much more high pressure. And whether your

2145
01:56:22,080 --> 01:56:25,960
Speaker 1: conference road game or hosting a team that just you

2146
01:56:26,040 --> 01:56:28,320
Speaker 1: would make their season if they beat you, which is

2147
01:56:28,560 --> 01:56:31,560
Speaker 1: just about every team Miami plays in the ACC. Okay,

2148
01:56:32,000 --> 01:56:34,280
Speaker 1: you know what Miami doesn't do. They don't storm fields

2149
01:56:34,320 --> 01:56:37,240
Speaker 1: because when you win national titles, you don't worry about

2150
01:56:37,320 --> 01:56:40,800
Speaker 1: storming a field because because it isn't a big deal

2151
01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:42,960
Speaker 1: to you until you actually win the whole thing. But

2152
01:56:43,080 --> 01:56:45,080
Speaker 1: I tell you, I've been to plenty of Miami games

2153
01:56:45,080 --> 01:56:47,240
Speaker 1: where the other team storms the field because it's a

2154
01:56:47,240 --> 01:56:49,280
Speaker 1: big deal of them to beat Miami in a regular season.

2155
01:56:49,480 --> 01:56:52,040
Speaker 1: Notre Dame knows this feeling. Plenty of teams when they've

2156
01:56:52,080 --> 01:56:54,520
Speaker 1: upset Notre Dame on the road, they storm the field.

2157
01:56:56,320 --> 01:56:59,280
Speaker 1: But the fact is Miami is playing more high pressure games. Shoot,

2158
01:56:59,280 --> 01:57:02,440
Speaker 1: Oklahomas playing more high pressure games. Us every one of

2159
01:57:02,480 --> 01:57:05,480
Speaker 1: the power for because of how important this path to

2160
01:57:05,600 --> 01:57:09,480
Speaker 1: the playoff is. These conference games are much more high

2161
01:57:09,520 --> 01:57:10,960
Speaker 1: stakes and Notre Dame.

2162
01:57:10,880 --> 01:57:11,720
Speaker 2: Doesn't have any of them.

2163
01:57:13,040 --> 01:57:16,720
Speaker 1: And so I actually think that Notre Dame not the

2164
01:57:16,840 --> 01:57:18,840
Speaker 1: arrogance of Notre Dame not being in a conference and

2165
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:22,680
Speaker 1: still wanting to be treated equally compared to what everybody

2166
01:57:22,720 --> 01:57:25,920
Speaker 1: else has to go through with these conference schedules. I

2167
01:57:26,000 --> 01:57:31,839
Speaker 1: actually think that these athletic directors that are on this committee,

2168
01:57:32,560 --> 01:57:35,840
Speaker 1: as much as they want to, you know, do whatever

2169
01:57:35,880 --> 01:57:40,160
Speaker 1: they have to do for ESPN for the ESPN Invitational here,

2170
01:57:40,800 --> 01:57:44,880
Speaker 1: at the same time, are irritated that Notre Dame doesn't

2171
01:57:44,920 --> 01:57:51,200
Speaker 1: have to go through this conference business. So at a minimum,

2172
01:57:51,400 --> 01:57:54,600
Speaker 1: Rhys Davis, please ask whoever's going to be that I

2173
01:57:54,640 --> 01:57:56,960
Speaker 1: think it's now the Arkansas ad who is going to

2174
01:57:56,960 --> 01:58:00,800
Speaker 1: be the spokesperson for the committee. Please ask them whether

2175
01:58:02,000 --> 01:58:05,839
Speaker 1: the committee is going to essentially downgrade the two victories

2176
01:58:06,400 --> 01:58:09,200
Speaker 1: that Notre Dame had over Navy and pit They should

2177
01:58:09,240 --> 01:58:12,720
Speaker 1: be downgraded. They did not face they faced an exhibition.

2178
01:58:13,240 --> 01:58:16,360
Speaker 1: They faced two teams that treated the game as an exhibition.

2179
01:58:17,240 --> 01:58:19,680
Speaker 1: I'm not saying the players themselves did, but the coaching

2180
01:58:19,720 --> 01:58:22,240
Speaker 1: staff did. And when you say you don't care if

2181
01:58:22,280 --> 01:58:25,320
Speaker 1: you win the game, you know your players hear it.

2182
01:58:29,720 --> 01:58:32,080
Speaker 1: So when you're comparing not every ten and two record

2183
01:58:33,000 --> 01:58:36,240
Speaker 1: should be treated the same. And I think clearly here

2184
01:58:37,680 --> 01:58:41,160
Speaker 1: Notre Dame should be the one that's in much bigger

2185
01:58:41,240 --> 01:58:43,880
Speaker 1: trouble in their playoff path right now because they have

2186
01:58:44,040 --> 01:58:46,680
Speaker 1: teams that are not taking the Notre Dame game that

2187
01:58:46,800 --> 01:58:50,720
Speaker 1: seriously anymore because of how important now the conference pathway is.

2188
01:58:54,560 --> 01:58:57,280
Speaker 1: I have to say a few other notes on what

2189
01:58:57,400 --> 01:59:00,560
Speaker 1: I saw over the weekend. I get more impressed at

2190
01:59:00,560 --> 01:59:02,640
Speaker 1: Texas Tech all the time. I have no idea why

2191
01:59:02,640 --> 01:59:05,800
Speaker 1: anybody's ranking Oregon as high as they are. I think

2192
01:59:05,960 --> 01:59:09,440
Speaker 1: Oregon I have some questions about Oregon here. You know, yes,

2193
01:59:09,480 --> 01:59:13,960
Speaker 1: they have one loss. I'll be this Oregon USC game

2194
01:59:14,000 --> 01:59:16,920
Speaker 1: coming up. It's a huge game to see if the

2195
01:59:16,960 --> 01:59:20,600
Speaker 1: Big ten can get three teams into the playoffs. But

2196
01:59:20,760 --> 01:59:23,240
Speaker 1: Oregon's best win is now Penn State. How good of

2197
01:59:23,280 --> 01:59:28,800
Speaker 1: a win is that Oregon needs to blow out USC?

2198
01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:36,200
Speaker 1: I think to justify they're certainly to justify how to

2199
01:59:36,320 --> 01:59:39,520
Speaker 1: see them at ranked as high high as they are.

2200
01:59:39,960 --> 01:59:41,320
Speaker 1: I got to give Texas A and M a ton

2201
01:59:41,360 --> 01:59:43,960
Speaker 1: of credit both A and M this week in Indiana.

2202
01:59:44,040 --> 01:59:46,520
Speaker 1: Last week, when you should lose a game and you

2203
01:59:46,560 --> 01:59:48,000
Speaker 1: figure out a way to win and you're one of

2204
01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:52,240
Speaker 1: these undefeated teams, I am in some ways more impressed.

2205
01:59:52,280 --> 01:59:54,160
Speaker 1: They didn't play their best game in the first half.

2206
01:59:54,760 --> 01:59:56,960
Speaker 1: You know, I gave you that tip last week. I said, hey,

2207
01:59:57,040 --> 02:00:01,160
Speaker 1: I had heard that with the new offensive coordinator, they're

2208
02:00:01,200 --> 02:00:03,920
Speaker 1: worried about losing Lenora Sellers in the portal. There's even

2209
02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:07,240
Speaker 1: rumors at Miami he may end up at Miami that

2210
02:00:07,280 --> 02:00:09,040
Speaker 1: they were going to open things up a little bit.

2211
02:00:09,160 --> 02:00:11,320
Speaker 1: And boy did they and he looked terrific in that

2212
02:00:11,440 --> 02:00:14,960
Speaker 1: first half, and A and M shut him down and

2213
02:00:15,200 --> 02:00:17,240
Speaker 1: shut everything down in the second half. So I have

2214
02:00:17,320 --> 02:00:19,640
Speaker 1: to say A and M impressed me, and impressed me

2215
02:00:19,720 --> 02:00:21,480
Speaker 1: quite a bit. They don't have to win another game.

2216
02:00:22,560 --> 02:00:24,760
Speaker 1: They will, but they don't have to win another game.

2217
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:27,120
Speaker 1: I'm very curious, and here's going to be something to see.

2218
02:00:27,560 --> 02:00:28,840
Speaker 1: Texas got its third loss.

2219
02:00:29,920 --> 02:00:30,280
Speaker 3: What is that?

2220
02:00:30,560 --> 02:00:34,360
Speaker 1: You know, what's their intensity going to be like for

2221
02:00:34,400 --> 02:00:36,480
Speaker 1: the rest of the season, particularly for the A and

2222
02:00:36,600 --> 02:00:38,600
Speaker 1: M game at the end of the year. It's exciting

2223
02:00:38,680 --> 02:00:41,000
Speaker 1: to see Texas, Texas, A and M play I think

2224
02:00:41,000 --> 02:00:42,800
Speaker 1: they're gonna be playing on Thanksgiving weekend, which will be

2225
02:00:42,880 --> 02:00:49,560
Speaker 1: kind of nice that And then there's Vanderbilt. You know,

2226
02:00:49,640 --> 02:00:52,320
Speaker 1: there's still They're still sitting there at eight and two,

2227
02:00:52,480 --> 02:00:54,760
Speaker 1: and you have Utah sitting there and eighty two, both

2228
02:00:54,760 --> 02:00:58,000
Speaker 1: ahead of Miami. So don't don't think I haven't. I

2229
02:00:58,080 --> 02:01:01,640
Speaker 1: don't have my eyes on them on that front. I

2230
02:01:01,760 --> 02:01:04,920
Speaker 1: have a feeling if Miami takes care of business and

2231
02:01:05,080 --> 02:01:07,720
Speaker 1: wins by margin in their last two games, that they

2232
02:01:08,040 --> 02:01:12,800
Speaker 1: likely leapfrog, because again, Miami does have better wins I

2233
02:01:12,920 --> 02:01:15,920
Speaker 1: think than either of those other two teams. But we

2234
02:01:16,000 --> 02:01:23,320
Speaker 1: shall see. All in all, I am obviously nervous, I'm willing,

2235
02:01:23,400 --> 02:01:26,800
Speaker 1: I'm trying to will every everything I have and making

2236
02:01:26,840 --> 02:01:29,080
Speaker 1: sure Miami is treated fairly in this. That's all I'm

2237
02:01:29,120 --> 02:01:31,680
Speaker 1: asking is that Miami is treated fairly, because I don't

2238
02:01:31,720 --> 02:01:34,400
Speaker 1: think the a c C in general gets treated fairly

2239
02:01:34,440 --> 02:01:37,120
Speaker 1: in this, and frankly, until we have a year where

2240
02:01:37,160 --> 02:01:40,440
Speaker 1: they are treated fairly, you're going to have a hard

2241
02:01:40,480 --> 02:01:43,400
Speaker 1: time convincing any fan of any team in the a

2242
02:01:43,520 --> 02:01:47,440
Speaker 1: c C that the that ESPN or the College Football

2243
02:01:47,440 --> 02:01:50,160
Speaker 1: Playoff Committee or the ESPN Invitational Committee, whatever you want

2244
02:01:50,160 --> 02:01:52,960
Speaker 1: to call it is going to give an ACC team

2245
02:01:53,320 --> 02:01:59,320
Speaker 1: a fair shot. But like I said, I will I

2246
02:01:59,360 --> 02:02:04,040
Speaker 1: will pull back some of my critique of the media

2247
02:02:04,120 --> 02:02:08,040
Speaker 1: company's influence on this committee if I see some hard

2248
02:02:08,200 --> 02:02:11,720
Speaker 1: questioning of the committee chair on this issue of whether

2249
02:02:11,880 --> 02:02:14,920
Speaker 1: Notre Dame's two victories over Navy and Pitt ought to

2250
02:02:15,000 --> 02:02:18,320
Speaker 1: be downgraded. So with that, I do enjoy trolling my

2251
02:02:18,400 --> 02:02:20,640
Speaker 1: friends that are Notre Dame fans on this one. But

2252
02:02:20,800 --> 02:02:25,200
Speaker 1: in all seriousness, if I know if somehow this could

2253
02:02:25,240 --> 02:02:27,840
Speaker 1: be used as a demerit against an ACC team, this

2254
02:02:27,960 --> 02:02:31,600
Speaker 1: committee would be all over it. It's a big name,

2255
02:02:31,960 --> 02:02:34,720
Speaker 1: Notre Dame that's doing it. Will they have the guts

2256
02:02:36,120 --> 02:02:39,880
Speaker 1: to publicly call out Notre Dame's victories on this one?

2257
02:02:40,360 --> 02:02:42,080
Speaker 3: We shall all right with that.

2258
02:02:43,120 --> 02:02:45,960
Speaker 1: I hope you even had a good weekend. Hope you

2259
02:02:46,080 --> 02:02:49,080
Speaker 1: enjoyed your weekend. I'm glad, since I'm traveling a lot

2260
02:02:49,200 --> 02:02:52,640
Speaker 1: this week that all of the airports are up and running.

2261
02:02:53,120 --> 02:02:55,880
Speaker 1: I thank those TSA agents and those air traffic controllers

2262
02:02:56,240 --> 02:02:59,080
Speaker 1: who have been working without pay. Thank you for doing that.

2263
02:02:59,240 --> 02:03:01,000
Speaker 1: Thank you for your surch of us. Thank you for

2264
02:03:01,560 --> 02:03:05,480
Speaker 1: at least doing what you can to keep a government

2265
02:03:05,600 --> 02:03:09,440
Speaker 1: that behaves so dysfunctionally, a bit more functional and with

2266
02:03:09,560 --> 02:03:10,840
Speaker 1: that until I upload again.

2267
02:03:11,240 --> 02:03:13,840
Speaker 3: M m hmmm.