1 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Crime Roundup. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and I 2 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: got to tell you right off the bat, this episode 3 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: has a warning attacked caution because y'all are entering the 4 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: shift of zone. Honey, y'all, please welcome the new co 5 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: host of Crime Roundup. You know him, you love him, 6 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: you admire him. Fame defense attorney, a legal legend that 7 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: has come straight from the Habitasherie Joshua Schiffer. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, 8 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: my friend. 9 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: You are too kind, and it is a profound honor 10 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 2: every time. 11 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 3: I hear from you. 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 2: You know what a giant fan I am of your 13 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: coverage and your perspective and the fact that you really 14 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: have cons Well, this. 15 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: One is going to be an important one because I 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: tell you, you and I have talked often about people that 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: are familiar with the court system. We have talked as 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: folks that at my law enforcement and prosecutors. We have 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: talked about when you're on the opposite side of the owl. 20 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: We have talked about all kinds of things from both 21 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: sides of the world that we live in. Defense attorney prosecution, prosecution, 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: law enforcement, defense attorney in prison. But today we're going 23 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: to talk as parents, and I got to tell you, 24 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: I just you know, this week, I think we have 25 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: witnessed such grace and bravery, family loyalty, and love on 26 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: a level, Joshua, that you and I rarely see in 27 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: court every day. 28 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 2: It really is and I'm so glad focusing on the 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: fact that the Coburger process, even though about the most 30 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: tragic thing you can, like seriously, as a parent, ask anybody, 31 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: loss of child, loss of multiple children by a stranger 32 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: in the most violent, reprehensible way possible. From the perspective 33 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: of the system, our system hasn't worked better because the 34 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: system confronted the absolute tear and horror of humankind's worst behaviors. 35 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 2: And no one is apologizing or justifying or anything like 36 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: that for mister Coburg. But what we saw was good 37 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: police work, especially now that so many of these documents 38 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: are getting released, and we see the efforts that the 39 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: investigators and the officers were involved in from. 40 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 3: The get go. 41 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: And these are law enforcement groups that took a lot 42 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: of flak, They took a lot of pressure from the 43 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: general public. And then we saw a district attorney and 44 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: a prosecution as well as a defense do their jobs. 45 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 2: Admirably and aggressively, zealously agreed for the people that they 46 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: were really owing their duties to the general public and 47 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: their client, and in the end, the general public received 48 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: justice that was fulsome and appropriate. We received it in 49 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: an honest and straightforward, matter of fact, man of fashion, 50 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: and it really was a high point in how our 51 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: criminal justice system deals with the worst kinds of cases. 52 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: You know, these four children, because that's what they were, 53 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: their parents, their siblings, their friends. They went to that 54 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: podium and they spoke and I want to say spoken 55 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: quotes and I'm going to get back that minute, but 56 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: they spoke in the way that they needed to, and 57 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: what I thought was so impressive. Nothing was a cookie 58 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: cutter here. Each person said what they needed to from 59 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: hell is waiting on you. You're an idiot, you're basic, 60 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: you're nothing to I forgive you. I mean, it was 61 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: the spectrum, the full spectrum, the full spectrum. And when 62 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: each person spoke, I was like, yep, yep, I get it. 63 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: I feel it. I'm with you. I can understand what 64 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: you're saying. You know, the one stepfather that said I 65 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: want five minutes with you in the woods, I get it. 66 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: I get it. 67 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 2: So good because they did it hit so many different perspectives, that. 68 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: So many But I got to tell you when Dylan Mortensen, 69 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: when she said what happened that night changed everything, Joshua, 70 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: I knew right there, this is gonna hurt to hear. 71 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: It needed to hurt, It needed to be real. But 72 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you know, I've heard you talk about 73 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: your college days, Walt Ny. We met in high school, 74 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: but college is where we really became us. The way 75 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: we travel, the way we communicate. 76 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 2: Right, such a defining chapter man in so many of 77 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: our lives. 78 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: And she went on to say, he did not take 79 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: them from the world, He took them from me. I 80 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: cannot imagine losing Wall in college. My whole life would 81 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: have come off the rails and stayed that way. 82 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: That concretized the juncture at life and that specialness that 83 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: I think either you have an experienced or if you have, 84 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: it's been a while, because there's that specialness of your 85 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: in college and you're not a first year, you're not 86 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: a freshman. You've got your life together in a way 87 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: that you've never had it before. You're nineteen, twenty twenty one, 88 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: twenty two, you're taking care of and we all know 89 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: this as adults, you're not really taking care of stuff. 90 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 2: But for that age, for that stage in life, you 91 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: finally have stuff going that you control, that you've built, 92 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: You've got this academic record, you've got these independent friendships 93 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: that weren't forced because if they played on the same 94 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: sports team. So no, these are people that you met 95 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: and you've got agency and control in your life, and 96 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: it really becomes that platform most people based the rest 97 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: of their adulthood on. And to lose those relationships, to 98 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: lose those people, to have them stolen at this juncture, 99 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 2: is especially painful. It's heartbreaking. And so many people's growth 100 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 2: moment occurs at or around college or just after, when 101 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: they discover that meaning that brings them forward. And that's 102 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: where these four kids were. And as a dad, that 103 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: is brutal. The amount of investment and time parents put 104 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: into getting your kid to that juncture, it magnifies the impact. 105 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: And I got to say something. I don't always talk properly. 106 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: I don't always talk purty. I mean sometimes you know, 107 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace will always say that's a double negative. You know, 108 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: where you're dropping your g or whatever I'm doing. But 109 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: you are, without a doubt, one of the best orators 110 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: I've ever heard in my life. And not just when 111 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: you're in court, you'll do it in a general conversation. 112 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: But my question for you, with all of your training, 113 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: with your obvious gifts to turn a phrase, could you 114 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: adequately describe what your daughter means to you on paper? 115 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 3: It impossible? 116 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: Impossible, It absolutely And my belief and why what we 117 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: witnessed was so important is if you really mean something 118 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: and you want to communicate, don't tell them, show them. 119 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: And we typically phrase it reverse of that, show them, 120 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: don't tell them. How do you communicate something? And this 121 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: gets a little bit more academic for the nerds out 122 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: there when you're talking about trials, trial technique, persuasive advocacy, 123 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: being an advocate in your personal and professional life. Show 124 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: someone the feelings. Because words suck, they fail. I know 125 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: lots of them. I know tons and tons of words. 126 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 2: There aren't the right words to discuss and to completely 127 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: communicate those films. It's why we have things like poetry. 128 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: What is poetry? It's words meant to evoke a feeling. 129 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: Same with music, and I know, Cheryl, you've got those 130 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: songs where they turn on and the turkey skin goes 131 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: up on the neck and you get all bubbled and 132 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: it's like it brings you right, that that's a feeling, 133 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: and feelings are very complex to transmit, to share, to 134 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: connect with it, and it requires, I believe, some physical 135 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: action and the appearance and investing yourself in that moment. 136 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: The way that those impact statements came out this week, 137 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: and they came out in an organic, natural, varied way, 138 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: really did hit the whole spectrum. And notice how no 139 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: one ran out of time, Notice how no one was 140 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 2: pressured to wrap it up. That this was a fulsome opportunity, 141 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 2: and you know they spent time on this, and you 142 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 2: know that they went through versions of what they wanted 143 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: to say that we're so. 144 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: Angry, and it was genuine, it was heartfelt, it was 145 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: gut wrenching. It was deliberate. I'll tell you right off 146 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: the bat. When the sister stood up and told Coberger 147 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: sit up straight. When I talked to you, my head 148 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: literally spun around because I'm like, wait a minute, this 149 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: is different. Normally they only talk about their loved one. 150 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: She's going to talk directly to him and then give 151 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: him a directive. I'm like Okay, girl, let's go. I 152 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: was all in because again that's what she needed to do, 153 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: and I thought she was brilliant using his own words 154 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: against him. 155 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 2: Elena really did a spectacle killer job in using those 156 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: kind of communicative touchdowns his own words, that connection, in 157 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 2: changing how you're directing your speech. It's not to the judge, 158 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: it's to the defendant, it's to the convicted powerful. 159 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: And then we saw you know, Bethany the survivor gilt. 160 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: Oh my word, I mean that child when she wrote 161 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: why did I get to live and not them? 162 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 3: And the trauma? 163 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: I'm very glad she's thoroughly supported, because really, this is 164 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: nothing's the same after this. This is one of those 165 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: watershed moments, and I'm glad that she continues to carry 166 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 2: on a story in a legacy, but a profoundly change. 167 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: Whatever the meaning in her life was before, it is 168 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: different now. And this was a necessary episode for her 169 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 2: to share that growth and development. And I'll say, the 170 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: petty part of my heart is happy Brian Coberger had 171 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: to listen to it. He can close his ears, he 172 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: can ignore, he can prep sitting in his cell at night, 173 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 2: going all you gotta do is just sit there all 174 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 2: you gotta do is just sit there, don't make a sound, 175 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: don't say anything. 176 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 3: It doesn't matter. 177 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: Those words are going to echo with him for the 178 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: rest of his life, and it's going to be a 179 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: life of And I know people are upset about the 180 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: death penalty not being applied. I assure you, a life 181 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 2: in maximum security is not. 182 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 3: Just no life. 183 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: It is a life of extraordinary discomfort and pain and 184 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: sadness and punishment that you really can't believe. I've been in, 185 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 2: just like Cheryl have lots of prisons. Prisons aren't You 186 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: can see the bursts of happiness and laugh. There are 187 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: individual episodes where you see a little bit. 188 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 3: Of light and love and levity. 189 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: No, most of the time you walk into these they're quiet. 190 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: You're not allowed to yell and scream. It's not a 191 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 2: bunch of people. No, the maximum security places tend to 192 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: be pretty silent, really really quiet, a lot of nothing 193 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 2: except the standard routine. Because so many of these individuals 194 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: are in the basically administry of segregation, twenty three twenty 195 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: four hour lockdowns. Their life is nothing but a slot 196 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 2: opening and a door three times a day with a tray. 197 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, I've spent eight years at Rice Street with 198 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: the Sheriff's Department. And I'm will tell you there's all 199 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: kind of punishment. One you can't ever again eat what 200 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: you won't when you want to eat it. You can't 201 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: take a shower when you want to, You can't go 202 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: to sleep when you want to. You can't make a 203 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: doctor's appointment and go see somebody immediately. You can't talk 204 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: to family or friends or do any of the just 205 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: things you take for granted every day. But I'm gonna 206 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: tell you it stinks. It's sterile, it's cold, it's damp, 207 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: and a lot of times dangerous. 208 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: He is gonna struggle just looking and knowing so inside prison, 209 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: And I know everybody's got all kinds of clap trap 210 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: about what they believe in, what their cousin done told them, 211 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: and how it is in their state. Physically, people accused 212 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: of the sex crimes, of the assault on children. That 213 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: that's a bad spot in the hierarchy. 214 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: That's a bad spot. 215 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: CM's there's a million different ways to refer to the 216 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: people in that sexualized offender category. Chester yep, Chesters. They 217 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: sometimes wear a different color uniform. There's a whole lot. 218 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: But I assure you everybody else in the yard knows 219 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: everybody's business. And he is a man that is not 220 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: what i'd say intimidating from a physical perspective, at least 221 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 2: not compared to most people that are long term prison residents. 222 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: And having not seen too much of his personality, but 223 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: just reading about it, he strikes me as a kind 224 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 2: of nerdy, academic misfit cast out. And that's a tough 225 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: way to go to prison with the same people for a. 226 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: Long time, Joshua. Bottom line, there are folks in there 227 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: that have been on the street since they were a kid. 228 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: They are drug dealers, they are hustlers, they are rapist, 229 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: they are killers, they are gang members. 230 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: No compunction to rely on the rules of society, Zpe. 231 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: And he has been, for all intensive purposes, a cream puff. 232 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: He ain't ready like you. 233 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: Gotta understand the fundamental rules of society don't exist in 234 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: a maximum security prison. It is all power control. If 235 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: there is a weakness, these are the inmates that will 236 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: take advantage of it. These guys have more time than 237 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: anything else, and they openly do not have your best interests, 238 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 2: and they do not share your morals and values. 239 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: They don't and the warden don't run that place. 240 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: No you kidding me. 241 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 2: Warden's job is to keep the walls as high as possible. 242 00:16:55,640 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 2: That's really number one. Prevent the guys inside from getting outside. 243 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 2: After that, and it's kind of gravy how well you 244 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: run your facility, which is sad and awful. And we 245 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 2: can talk all about the problems in institutionalization and modern 246 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: penal policies and how prison rape is a horrific, persistent, 247 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: chronic issue that they've never been able to get a 248 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 2: handle on it. I got a bunch of flak because 249 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: I said, hey, listen, I appreciate the most offensive humor 250 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 2: in the world, but I don't think prison rapes really 251 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: super funny. 252 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: Having dealt with a bunch of people who got raped in. 253 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 2: Prison, I totally understand why the family of these victims 254 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: would be like, I hope you get raped every day. 255 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: I understand that level of anger and fury at murdering 256 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 2: and killing and stealing my loved one away. There's no 257 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: bottom to the end of punishment. I hope you get, 258 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: but prison, I assure everybody his life is going to 259 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: be miss miserable for every minute until he dies. 260 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: You know, when Scott Laramie Matty's stepfather talked about quote 261 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: the endless void that to me is where he's living. 262 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: He's in an abyss of crap forever. 263 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and really, I'm very proud that this horrifically sad 264 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: chapter and story is getting a complete resolution because the 265 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 2: state did its job. Sure there were hiccups, Sure there 266 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: are things that can always be done better. They are 267 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: aspirational goals for justice that she'll never be met. That's 268 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 2: why it's aspirational. That's why justice is something we all 269 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 2: work towards from our various perspectives. But guess what state 270 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 2: got it done. State didn't know who it was, found him, 271 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 2: found him, and then the investigation to prove it was 272 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 2: him put together a case that on its face could 273 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 2: have very easily led to the client being put to death. 274 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: In a lawful manner, client made a really smart decision 275 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: considering the very few parts of the case that flowed 276 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 2: in his benefit and took the absolute best deal possible, 277 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: which still guarantees he doesn't get to appeal. He's done, 278 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 2: he's wrapped. Stories over, Just go do the time and 279 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: we will next hear about this when he tries to 280 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: sell a book or when he is getting married to 281 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: some person who is more desperate for God knows, because 282 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: he is going to be inundated with love letters. But 283 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: I'm very proud that this episode showed why the system 284 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: worked and the defense didn't let up. The defense had 285 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: their knives out until the plague. That's right, And you 286 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 2: got a da proud and strong and confident and had 287 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 2: the character to overrule the legitimate desires of some victims 288 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 2: and many people in the community to be more aggressive 289 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 2: and said, no, I'm going to use my discretion to 290 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: make choices that I believe fulfill my duties, and that 291 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 2: includes not spending the assets and creating the exposure and 292 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 2: investigation into these young people's lives and causing additional harms 293 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: that are just going to be thrown out of any 294 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 2: Definitely try, I don't care what kind. There's just problems. 295 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 2: They're hard for a reason. Let's make the right decision. 296 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 2: And he did, and he convinced the defense to take it, 297 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 2: and he did it knowing they were going to get 298 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 2: just lambasted by people left right, and said, but he 299 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 2: put justice first above headlines and other more more base. 300 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 3: Motivations. 301 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: Well, I gotta tell you something, you and I have 302 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: talked about some of the things that the families said 303 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: in court, but one of the most power moves I 304 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: have ever seen in my life came from the Chapin family. 305 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: They did not show up. They refused to give Coburger 306 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: any audience. He was not going to have a chance 307 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: to see their pain, their grief, or hear any intimate 308 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: details about Ethan. I think that was straight up gangster yet. 309 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 2: No boss power move. And it's like the judge said, 310 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 2: you can tell you to give him agency and attention. 311 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: That's power. Let's stop. You know, Scher, When you first 312 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 2: talked to me about about doing this, it was before 313 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: the sentence scene, and you and I had a very 314 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: serious conversation about, Hey, what's gonna happen. 315 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. 316 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: This could have been one of those victim impact things 317 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 2: that becomes a story into itself because of what happens 318 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: at the hearing. We were prepared for it to go 319 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 2: over one full afternoon and into the next day, and 320 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: the system, again organically and through these families, made sure 321 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 2: Brian Koberger felt every flavor of feeling people had from 322 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: the straight up I hate you, wish I could get 323 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: you in the woods wish you were sexually assault murdered. 324 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 2: Kit all that through the grace of faith. And we 325 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 2: had a number of references to faith and how it 326 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 2: is the supreme act of God and creation to forgive. 327 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: It is so hard, it is so meaningful, but that's 328 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: why it is the highest form of service of faith 329 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: in belief is the ability to forgive, because without forgiveness, 330 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 2: we are all doomed. If you do not find forgiveness, 331 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 2: and all you think about is punishment, revenge, society ends, 332 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: it never expands or grows because you're always going to 333 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 2: be running out of the next people. 334 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 3: To attack in her Amen. 335 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: So we had forgiveness of the highest level. And then, 336 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 2: like you said, with the shape and family, I'm going 337 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: to rob you, Brian Coberger, of the attention that we 338 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: all know he was motivated by, at least to some degree. 339 00:23:54,119 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: They've forced him to live forever without hearing from eth family. 340 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: And that's a megaboss move, an absolute foot down. 341 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: Screw you. I don't have respect for it. This is done. 342 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: You know, your friendship and your guidance and your leadership 343 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: and your humor are something I adore and rely on. 344 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna tell you you being here for 345 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: Crime round Up every week, Honey, it is just gonna 346 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: set this place on fire. So here's what I want 347 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: to do. You might have already done it because what 348 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: you just said was so brilliant and perfect. But as 349 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 1: a lawyer, as a son, as a friend, as a father, 350 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,719 Speaker 1: I'm going to give you the last words, and you 351 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: you can speak straight to Xanna and Maddie and Ethan. 352 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: Sorry I got choked up. I'm so sorry I got 353 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: hooked up, but I gotta mention Kayley, I can't. 354 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 2: You know, staring into hopelessness is the cruelest existence that 355 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 2: anybody can have. And at the same time, Brian Coburger's 356 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 2: his story and his value as a person is not 357 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: zero and his actions while absolutely horrific. We're going to 358 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: take the legacy of these four absolutely innocent children and 359 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: create something by carrying on and using their memory and 360 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: using this process. And I know that the pathway is 361 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: foggy because we can't predict the future, but I have 362 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 2: absolute faith that the people that loved these four are 363 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 2: going to create good from the memory they leave behind. 364 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 2: That's left behind my people, my family, my faith. We 365 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 2: always say, may their memory be a blessing because when 366 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 2: someone's gone, you know, it's heartbreaking, it's sad, I'm sorry, 367 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Isn't really something for a death because a 368 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 2: death is part of our cycle and your memory being 369 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: a blessing is so all encompassing, an evocative of all 370 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 2: the good in creation, and Cheryl, you and I have 371 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: talked about this. There are people that walk through life 372 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 2: on the path, on the journey, looking down, and there 373 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 2: are people looking up. And you will follow your gaze, 374 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 2: and if you look at the world and focus on 375 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: the awful, you will find a pathway. There is plenty 376 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 2: of awful for you to explore. You can lose yourself 377 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: an awful and it's your choice to do that, just 378 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 2: as it's your choice to instead walk looking up and 379 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 2: knowing that bad happens. But you keep walking forward, You 380 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 2: keep looking up at grace, at creation, at faith, at family. 381 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 2: You look up because that's the only place the positivity, 382 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 2: the light, the love comes from. And it's your choice 383 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 2: tomorrow morning when you get up, whether you want to 384 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 2: look down on your path or if you want to 385 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 2: look up. And even if you are involved in the 386 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: trauma of law, enforcement, of criminal justice, of medicine, you 387 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: can find that upward looking, forward facing, praise worthy pathway 388 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 2: because it's your choice to do that every single 389 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum with Joshua Schiffer and this is Crome 390 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: Round Up.