1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Join me Julie Douglas for the Stuff of Life, a 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: sound escaped podcast that explores everything that makes us human. 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: Nothing is too beautiful to happen in life. Look for 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: a new episode every Wednesday in iTunes or wherever you 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: from House top Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm christ and I'm Caroline and Caroline. Even 8 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: though we're talking today about something that happened, it's timely 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: because HBO's Confirmation hits screens April six, in which Carrie 10 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: Washington is starring as Anita Hill. That's right, she also 11 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: produced it. It's an important story to tell. It's an 12 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: absolutely important story to tell. And some of you may 13 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: have already seen, as I did, the documentary Anita Speaking 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: Truth to Power, which is all about Anita hills testimony 15 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: regarding sexual harassment by Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas during 16 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: Thomas's confirmation hearings. Yeah, and it's it was pretty surprising 17 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: to a lot of people that this documentary came out 18 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: because Anita Hill is so famously private, famously private. It 19 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: is that a contradiction um but Hill said that she 20 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: felt it was time to revisit this and for people 21 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: to understand who I am and who that is is 22 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: someone who really helped change this country's legal and political landscape. Although, 23 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: as we talked about in our last episode, the term 24 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: sexual harassment had been coined in the mid seventies, it 25 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: really wasn't until this massive televised spectacle of a of 26 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: a hearing that the entire country and importantly a lot 27 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: of women, started talking to each other about the issue 28 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment. Yeah, and so if you haven't gone 29 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: back and listened to our previous episode on the legal 30 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: history of sexual harassment, we highly recommend that you do that. Um. 31 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: But Caroline, I was wondering if you remember this happening, 32 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: because I do, and the way that we're framing the 33 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: issue today in this podcast studio is much different than 34 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: the way the hearing was framed when I was a 35 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: kid in a very conservative home. Um. From what I 36 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: can piece together from my memory, I mean, I remember 37 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,399 Speaker 1: her sitting there, I remember her seeing her in her 38 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: blue suit. I'm sure we were not allowed to watch 39 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: like the actual hearing because she was talking about things 40 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: like breasts and penises. Um, but I remember her being 41 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: seen in my home or described in my home as 42 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: really the enemy. No, I don't remember it at all. Honestly, 43 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: I I know I have like this vague, lizard brain 44 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: like knowledge that it happened. Um, but I was not 45 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: aware of it. If my parents watched anything about it. 46 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: It was on the nightly news, and I just have 47 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: no recollection. And you were busy watching Murphy Brown. I 48 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: was super busy watching Murphy Brown and Designing Women and 49 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 1: The Cosby Show well, and so when I watched that documentary, 50 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: I needed speaking truth to power. A few months ago, 51 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: I started crying, Caroline, not kidding because it feels so 52 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: long ago, and yet it is not. Oh it's not. 53 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: And you know, the the nineties are having such a 54 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: heyday right now. Um, it's like everything is nineties nostalgia. 55 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: And yeah, I saw a picture of Rihanna wearing a choker. 56 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: Back everyone's wearing chokers. I should pull out the my 57 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: my handmade chokers from high school. Oh wait, no, I shouldn't. Um. 58 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: But watching it made me want to reach through the 59 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: Internet and shake it by its lapels and say, we 60 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: need to remember this thing, this chapter in our not 61 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: so long ago history. Because the way she was treated 62 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: sitting before an all male Senate Judiciary Committee, which included 63 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: Veep Joe Biden. Um, it was. It was horrifying. It 64 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: was a horrifying thing to witness, and I think every 65 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: single woman listening should absolutely watch it. I mean, watch 66 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: Carrie Washington's confirmation because she's fabulous, and support her, but 67 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: go back and actually watch the hearing itself. Yeah. Absolutely. 68 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: I mean, there are definitely clips online their transcripts, you 69 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: can access this information. And it's so important too, because 70 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: these fourteen white male senators were essentially performing the disbelief 71 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: of women, do you know what I mean? Like they 72 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: were they were performing how so many men felt and 73 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: feel about women who claim any type of sexual misconduct 74 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: in the workplace. Well, they were performing that and performing 75 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: the hyper sexualization of women of color. So I mean, 76 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: that's why I think it's so important. Read the transcript, yes, 77 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,679 Speaker 1: if you want more details, but you've got to see 78 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: it because the optics of it are just stunning. So 79 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: let's set the scene, shall we. Let's go back to 80 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: July when I was going through my windsuit face. Oh 81 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: my god, me too. Were they mean? Yes, yes, of 82 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: course they were. I had so many, so many wind seeds. Okay, anyway, right, 83 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: So in July nine one, when Kristin and I were 84 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: win suiting it up and swished switching down the allway 85 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: President Bush the first nominated forty three year old conservative 86 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: African American judge Clarence Thomas to replace just as Third 87 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: Good Marshal to the Supreme Court amid what was then 88 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: a super conservative political climate. And they figured that while 89 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas was way more conservative than Third Good Marshal, uh, 90 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: he would at least maintain the racial makeup of the court. 91 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: But the pinpoint Georgia natives conservative bent. I mean, and 92 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: that is conservative with what's bigger than a capital see 93 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: like a massive Washington monument size from the illuminated Bibles 94 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: that monks did. That's a huge sea. Yes, one of 95 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: those one of those large monk sees conservative. It upset 96 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: a lot of groups. I mean, you had the nub A, 97 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: c P, the National Bar Association, and the Urban League 98 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: fearing his views on affirmative action. They were worried that 99 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: it would reverse the progress of the Civil rights era 100 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: because he was so not for affirmative action. The National 101 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: Organization for Women worried that he would rule against legal abortion, 102 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: and the legal community at large was concerned about his experience. 103 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: He had less than two years of experience as a 104 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: federal judge. But still the nomination heads to the Senate 105 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: Judiciary committees confirmation hearings, which go relatively smoothly, but they 106 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: end in a tie, which sends the nomination to the 107 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: full Senate without a clear recommendation. And at this point, 108 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: although like he didn't get a glowing recommendation because it 109 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: was a tie and a lot of people didn't like him, uh, 110 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: it was still pretty smooth sailing until things take a turn. 111 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: And in October of Anita Hill, who was the University 112 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: of Oklahoma's first tenured black law professor, came forward so 113 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: to speak. She didn't really come forward, but we'll tackle 114 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: that in a minute. She said that Thomas had sexually 115 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: harassed her when he was her boss at both the 116 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights in eighty two 117 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: and at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in nine two. 118 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: In nine three, but let's back up a second, how 119 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: did she even end up before the Senate if she 120 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: didn't technically really kind of come forward on her own. 121 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: So she actually submitted a confidential statement to the Senate 122 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: Judiciary Committee saying that Thomas had harassed her ten years 123 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: earlier when they were both single. The FBI, per usual, 124 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: investigated the report, found it to be inconclusive, and the 125 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: committee decided not to act on it. But then it 126 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: became clear that members of various senators staffs approached Anita 127 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: Hill about her report, rather than what would later be 128 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: alleged that Hill approached Senators attempting to smear Clarence Thomas, 129 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: and in fact, she remained silent publicly until just two 130 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: days before the full Senate was set to confirm Thomas, 131 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: when someone leaked the statement to journalists, and that happened 132 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: on October six, and NPR and Newsday broke the story, 133 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: and once it broke, Anita Hill famously said, I felt 134 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: I had to tell the truth. I could not keep silent. 135 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: And so you have a lot of different groups, including 136 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: a lot of women's and feminist groups, in addition to 137 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: Senate Democrats helping pressure a testimony into being, and so 138 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: Hill get summoned to testify live on TV, delaying the 139 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: confirmation hearings, and those harassment hearings began just a couple 140 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: of days later, on October eleventh, with Thomas's opening statements, 141 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: which journalists noted were bitter to the point that people 142 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: thought he might withdraw his candidacy. Followed then by eight 143 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: hours of Anita Hill's testimony. And I want to say 144 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,239 Speaker 1: that it was a pretty big deal that they convinced 145 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: the you know, the Senate to air it live on 146 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: television because they did not want it to be a 147 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: closed hearing. Yeah, and I mean sort of often a tangent, 148 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: but that very decision within usher in our era of 149 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: like celebrity giant paparazzi type of tabloid trials as we 150 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: then would see in ninety five with O. J. Simpson. Yeah, 151 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: so with her testimony, Anita Hill's testimony, it was a 152 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: massive spectacle. There's really no other way to describe it. 153 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: She was grilled and prodded for eight hours by a 154 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: panel of fourteen white male senators, including all all Joe Biden, 155 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: but she never lost her cool, asserting that she's not 156 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: making a formal sexual harassment claim and that she did 157 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: not ask to testify. And Time magazine even painted her 158 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: as cool as a cucumber, prim delicate, quiet and serious. 159 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: And I mean if anyone's cecil Richards, you know, planned 160 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: parenthood testimonies before the Senate, and even Hillary Clinton has 161 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: been Ghazi testimonies. I mean, those two things were nothing 162 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: compared to what Anita Hill sat through. Oh I know, 163 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: But it is interesting that Time magazine article came out 164 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: about a year after the hearings, and they were sort 165 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: of going back and forth trying to I don't know 166 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: what they were trying to do. They were trying to 167 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: paint a picture looking back of how the hearings had gone, 168 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: and they were sort of the only way I can 169 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: picture it is like a cat with a ball of yarn, 170 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: like batting back and forth, the ideas of like who's lying? 171 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: Someone's lying? How could it be her? She was so 172 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: quiet and prim and serious, But how could it be him? 173 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: He's a big deal judge. And it's like, oh my god, 174 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: that's sickening. Uh And I get And they did a 175 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: great job of breaking down what happened in the hearing, 176 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: but still it's like, oh good, just another notch in 177 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: our culture of not believing women. Well, and that's also 178 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: why I so fervidly argue that everyone needs to watch 179 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: that testimony, because when I did see like the Benghazi 180 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: and Planned Parenthood hearings, flashbacks came of Anita Hill because 181 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: it's like it's the same thing, especially when it came 182 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: to Cecil Richards and planned parenthood of mostly men. By 183 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: that point, um challenging the veracity of what women say 184 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: about their own bodies, right, exactly, Well, so let's get 185 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: into the allegations. Hill said in her report that Thomas 186 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: talked about pornographic films and other materials, and good Old 187 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: Committee Chairman Joe Biden asked her, I'm not sure, I 188 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: don't know why. I mean, I guess for details, but 189 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: he specifically requested to know what the most embarrassing encounter was, 190 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: and she said it was during Thomas's discus of a 191 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: particular porn actor who had a really large penis, who 192 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: went by the name of Long Dong Silver and Senator 193 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 1: or In Hatch, who would prove to be one of 194 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: Hill's most aggressive interrogators over the course of her testimony, 195 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: dug up a federal appeals court decisions citing an obscene 196 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: photo of a character by that name, and so he 197 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: tried to discredit her by saying, no, no, no, you 198 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: heard it. In this case, you didn't hear it from 199 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas. Yeah. Um and Hill also talked about how 200 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas would brag about his own sexual prowess, the 201 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: size of his own penis, and the most famous slash 202 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: infamous moment came when Phil recounted Clarence Thomas reaching for 203 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: a can of coke when they worked together and asking 204 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: who has put pubic hair on my coke? And oor 205 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: in Hatch again one of the most aggressive interrogators, as 206 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: you put it, Caroline said that she simply stole that 207 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: story from The Exorcist, which features the line there seems 208 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: to be an alien pubic hair in my gin. And 209 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: I just want to know whether or in Hatch was 210 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: like that much of an Exorcist buff to be able to, like, 211 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, pull that out of his hat so quickly, 212 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: or if that was an interns job regardless, I was 213 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: actually jealous. I was trying to picture the same thing 214 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: about like how how do you send an intern on 215 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: that on that kick, Like do you just have an 216 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: intern who works for me who's like, that's a line 217 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: similar to one in the Exorcist, like someone who's really 218 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: plugged into pop culture Because Google didn't exist back then, 219 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: maybe the interns name was Google. I don't know. But 220 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: the last telling Straw was her last encounter with Thomas 221 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: as an e e o C employee. So she says 222 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: that Thomas had been asking her out. He'd asked her 223 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: out about ten times, but she declined, saying that dating 224 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: a supervisor was inappropriate, and so her last day at 225 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: the e o C before taking a position at Oral 226 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: Roberts Universe, uh Anita Hill said that Thomas invited her 227 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: to a restaurant afterwork, assuring her that dinner was a 228 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: professional courtesy. Only sounds all right, it's a way to 229 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: see me off. I'm leaving for another job. But that 230 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: last straw Hill said was he made a comment I 231 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: vividly remember. He said that if I ever told anyone 232 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: of his behavior, that it would ruin his career. And honestly, 233 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: aside from a handful, just a couple of people, she 234 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: really didn't tell anyone now, And of course that made 235 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: her immediately suspect to the Judiciary Committee. And I should 236 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: say that not all of the senators were out to 237 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: get her, but I mean it was nonetheless a very 238 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: hostile room. Um And in response to that, she said, listen, 239 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: I was afraid of coming forward. She reported feeling vulnerable, humiliated, 240 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: and frustrated. I mean talking about humiliation. I mean she 241 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: had to repeat so many times, Caroline, that pubic care story. 242 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: It is mind boggling. Um. She said. At one point, 243 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't as though it happened every day, but I 244 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: went to work during certain periods knowing that it might happen. 245 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: And that goes to that e o C definition of 246 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, where it happens frequently enough that it's creating 247 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: a hostile work environment. And she was afraid of the 248 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: repercussions if if she spoke out. Yeah, she was afraid 249 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: that she'd be overlooked for work assignments, could lose your job, 250 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: might not be able to find another political job at 251 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: all in the Reagan administration if she kept turning her 252 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: superior down. And this had very real physical consequences. The 253 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: anxiety that she felt dealing with all of this humiliation 254 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: and frustration contributed directly to her having to go to 255 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: the hospital for stomach pains, which is something we talked 256 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: about in our last episode on sexual harassment that so 257 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: often victims of trauma and or sexual harassment end up 258 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: with these very real manifestotions of the anxiety and pain 259 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: their feeling. And that Time magazine article that I referenced 260 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: earlier after the hearing, Uh, they were wondering like, oh, 261 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: maybe we should believe her after all, because they wrote, 262 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: given the detail and consistency of her testimony, it was 263 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: almost inconceivable that Hill, rather than describing her own experiences, 264 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: was fabricating the portrait of a sexual harassment victim. Duh. 265 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: Of course she wasn't making it up. And as she 266 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: herself said, I have nothing to gain here. This has 267 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: been disruptive of my life, and I've taken a number 268 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: of personal risks. And she even reported being threatened at 269 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: the time and beyond the testimony, and she went on 270 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: to say, I have not gained anything except knowing that 271 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: I came forward and did what I felt that I 272 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: had an obligation to do. That was to tell the truth. Yeah, 273 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there was absolutely nothing in this or Anita Hill. Um, 274 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: But what about witnesses? What about other women? Because surely, 275 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: and to Hill, wasn't the only one this happened to, 276 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: or if she was, isn't that so suspect? Well, the 277 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: thing is, other women did come forward, but we never 278 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: really heard about it. I mean some came forward to 279 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: support hills claims that she had previously complained to them, 280 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: you know, in private, of sexual harassment at the time 281 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: of the incidents. And some came forward though, to complain 282 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 1: of their own incidents of harassment. So why don't we 283 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: know so much about these other women, Caroline Well, I 284 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: mean they were they were stifled by the Judiciary Committee. Uh. 285 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: One of the most famous examples of this is the 286 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: journalist Angela Wright, who was a really fascinating character in 287 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: her own right. Didn't mean to do that. That's also 288 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: her last name. But Wright had worked with Thomas at 289 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: the e o C as well and shared similar accounts 290 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: with Senate investigators, like like the ones that Hill had shared, 291 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: but Joe Biden lifted her Tina because she wasn't considered credible. 292 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: So basically, you had Democrats and Republicans who were afraid 293 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: of Right testifying because they were worried it would cream 294 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: or chaos. They were worried that it would doom Thomas's nomination. 295 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: Right had been fired and or quit from like two 296 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: other jobs, and basically she stood up for herself in 297 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: those scenarios with not so great bosses. But the committee 298 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,959 Speaker 1: was like, oh, that just goes to show she's unstable. 299 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: But basically what led Angela Right into this situation, uh, 300 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: was the fact that she was horrified that Hill was 301 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: being called hysterical and that senators were saying, oh, there's 302 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: no problem, it's not like Hill was touched. So Right 303 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: talks to her higher ups at her newspaper, The Charlotte 304 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: Observer and says, I want to pin a column. I 305 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: want to write about this. This is what I was 306 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: hired to do. I'm going to do it. But she 307 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: hadn't even published it yet when the Senate Committee called 308 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: and they were like, we're very interested to know what's 309 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: going to be in your column, And Right ended up 310 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: going to d C. She sits in her lawyer's office 311 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: for three days waiting to be called, and behind the 312 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: scenes that was going on as Republicans and Democrats were 313 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: working together to basically be like, nah, we are not 314 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: calling her, and I mean Right would have and and 315 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: Biden admits this Right would have shifted the tone of 316 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: the whole thing. And she said, I believe her Anita, 317 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: because he did it to me, And even a coworker 318 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: Rights backed up her account. That Thomas had pressured her 319 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: to date him, had commented on rights appearance, and had 320 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: asked what size rights breasts were. And then you have 321 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: Sakari Hardnett, who was Thomas's ex assistant, who wrote to 322 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: the Judiciary committee quote, if you were young, black female 323 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: and reasonably attractive, you knew full well you were being 324 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: inspected and auditioned as a female by Thomas. And that 325 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: which reading this today in sixteen, like, obviously that is 326 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: sexual harassment up down in sideways. But that also reflects 327 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: that that kind of assumption that yes, okay, this is 328 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: gonna happen to you. If you're pretty enough, you're gonna 329 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: get hit on. But that also reflects all of the 330 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: retro office advice that we talked about in our previous 331 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: episode on the legal history of sexual harassment, where you know, 332 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: women writing to other women would say, you know what, 333 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: be pretty form, It's okay, it's it's a compliment. He's 334 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: just paying you a compliment. Well, so, while you had 335 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: these women in the wings who had been waiting to 336 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: support Anita Hill but weren't called, you also had many 337 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: who were against her. Some reported conflicting stories to weaken 338 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: her credibility. Thomas had a much larger number of witnesses 339 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: at his disposal to ben fit his case rather than 340 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: Anita Hills. But you also have the fact that the 341 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: committee ignored evidence regarding Thomas's habitual use of pornography, although 342 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: the habit was later documented by so many others, including 343 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: former girlfriend Lillian McEwen, And so Lilian McEwen becomes an 344 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: important character in this case because Thomas's defenders cited his 345 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: relationship with her in order to deflect Hill's accusations. How 346 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: could he be doing this. He's in this long term 347 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: relationship with this lovely Lilian woman and she didn't testify 348 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: again because of Biden. He limited female witnesses to those 349 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: who had a professional relationship only with Thomas, which is 350 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: a laugh because he's actually Hara asked them, So it's 351 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: not all professional. Well, and as McEwen would later describe it, 352 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: she said, he was always actively watching the women he 353 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: worked with to see if they could be potential partners. 354 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: So you got some grooming going on. She called it 355 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: bobby of his and saying that he asked one woman 356 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: her bra s eyes at one point, saying how he 357 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: was obsessed with porn and would talk about what he 358 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: had seen in magazines and films, if there's something worth noting, 359 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: which sounds a lot like what Anita Hill was saying 360 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: and speaking of x as though. We should also note 361 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: that um one of Anita Hill's ex boyfriends, attorney John Carr, said, Oh, yeah, 362 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: I mean I remember her talking to me in confidence 363 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,719 Speaker 1: about this. But he was so nervous for her when 364 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: he found out that she was going to have to testify, 365 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: because he knew the climate and he knew what she 366 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: was up against. Yeah, she was not facing a sympathetic crowd. 367 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: Oh and also in retrospect to the owner of the 368 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: porn video rental store that Thomas would frequent because again 369 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: pre Google, pre YouTube, uh said, Oh, if if I 370 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: had known how things would have turned out, I would 371 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: have testified too. I saw him all the time in there. 372 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm making my disapproving emoji face. Uh. Well, 373 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: so we've we've heard a lot from Anita Hill, We've 374 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: heard from Angela. Right, what about what about Thomas? How 375 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: did you respond? Well? He did not mince words. So 376 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: Thomas's response to Anita Hill's accusations was none too pleased, 377 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: to put it, incredibly mildly. Uh. He first said that 378 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: he felt shocked, surprised, hurt, and enormously saddened upon hearing 379 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: about Hill's accusations, and he went on to of course 380 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: deny that he'd ever asked her out, instead claiming just 381 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: to be a nice guy, just a friend willing to 382 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: help her out. And then he famously called the hearings 383 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: a high tech lynching for uppity blacks, and then writing 384 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 1: about this not too long after, Time magazine reporters say 385 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: that basically, you felt the whole rooms still as soon 386 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: as he says that, because he is sort of throwing 387 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: down the gauntlet around racism. Oh, absolutely, I mean. And 388 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: he threw in another lynching reference in his relatively short 389 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: testimony too. He said, no job is worth what I've 390 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: been through, No job, no horror in my life has 391 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: been so debilitating. And he goes on to say, I 392 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: will not provide the rope for my own lynching. These 393 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: are the most intimate parts of my privacy and they 394 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: will remain just that private. Yeah, I mean. He went 395 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: on lamenting about the testimony, how it had drawn out 396 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: his nomination, how I brought so much scrutiny from the press. 397 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: He said, the process was robbing him of something he 398 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: could never get back, and it needed to stop quote 399 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: for the benefit of future nominees. He also vacillated between 400 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: saying he'd rather take an assassin's bullet to this kind 401 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: of living hell, and yet would rather die than withdraw. 402 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: But really, the point, he repeatedly hammered, was that this 403 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: was a racially motivated attack and on on behalf of Hill, 404 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: but also that it was that she was some sort 405 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: of operative on behalf of the Democrats. And he said, 406 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: I cannot shake off these accusations because they play to 407 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: the worst stereotypes we have about black men in this country. 408 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: And if I remember correctly, Caroline, in his autobiography, Clarence Thomas, 409 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: you know, of course, writes about how angry he will 410 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 1: always remain about this incident and about Anita Hill. And 411 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: he said that his response to learning that he had 412 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: in fact been confirmed was quote, whoopedie damn do mm 413 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: hmm sounds really excited. I wonder if that has anything 414 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that he's spoken from the 415 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: bench twice in a decade. Anyway, in the meantime, as 416 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: this is happening, you see the Senate Judiciary committee attempt 417 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: again and again too discredit and delegitimize Anita Hills testimony 418 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: because of saying over and over again, you know the 419 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: old thing of like, well, how could you even put 420 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: yourself in this place? It goes back to the standard 421 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: for those old rape laws, where it's like if you 422 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: did not violently protest, if someone didn't hear you screaming 423 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: rape throughout the town square, then it just couldn't have happened. 424 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: So the first question they wanted to know was, well, 425 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: why did you follow him from the Department of Education? Two? 426 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: Very ironically, the E D O C. Yeah, And she 427 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: answered by saying that she thought by this point the 428 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: sexual overtures which had so troubled me had ended. And secondly, 429 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: like we had said earlier, she was really worried that 430 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: Reagan might phase out the Education department, and so she 431 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: was worried about losing a job. Um. And then they said, 432 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: you know, if he's still harassing you at the E 433 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: O C, why did you remain in contact with him 434 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: after he left? And her answer to that was, well, 435 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: I might as well remain cordial rather than burning bridges 436 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: and cutting off all ties, since I didn't work with 437 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: him anymore and no longer felt threatened. And of course 438 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: they then pressed, why didn't you cut ties? Why didn't 439 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: you know? Why didn't you burn those bridges? And she said, 440 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: if I had done that, I would have had to 441 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: explain this whole situation that I've come forward with today, 442 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: because remember she didn't she didn't want to publicize it. Yeah, 443 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: And so as a result of all of this so 444 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: called evidence against her, Senator Arlen Specter produced an affidavit 445 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: from John Doggett, a Yale classmate of Clarence Thomas's and 446 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: an acquaintance of Anita Hills, and dogg It, in this affidavit, 447 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: claimed that Hill had cornered him at a party about 448 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: leading her on, and he referred to her ideas about 449 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 1: romance between them as fantasies, to which, of course Anita 450 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: Hill responded, I did not at any time have any 451 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: fantasy about romance with him. But all of this was 452 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: Senator Specter's way of trying to paint her as just 453 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: simply unstable. I mean this woman again, hyper sexualization of 454 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: women of color. I mean she she just wanted this 455 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: sexual attention. Yeah, And I mean Spector hammered her on 456 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: details minute details of her story changing, he questioned how 457 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: valid her memories of events from eight to ten years 458 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: earlier were. In his example, he said that when you 459 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: spoke to the FBI in September, you said you told 460 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: just one friend about the harassment. Now you have to 461 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: witnesses lined up to testify that you'd complained at the time. 462 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: And she basically said, listen, you have to take this 463 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: testimony and the statement as a whole. And of course 464 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: there is no motivations, she said, to show I'd make 465 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: up something like this. I mean, I can hardly tell 466 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: you what happened eight to ten days ago, Caroline, much 467 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: less eight to ten years. Um. But one thing that's 468 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,719 Speaker 1: really important for us to highlight is the gender and 469 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: racial aspects of this, of how it ties into the 470 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: angry black women's stereotypes and uh concerns about coming across 471 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: that way, um, women simply being seen as outside of 472 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: the norm in general, even back not so long ago, 473 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: and Biden himself even framed it as part of quote 474 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: a fundamental power struggle going on in this country between 475 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: women and men. Making it it's making it a whole, 476 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: like he said, she said thing when it should not 477 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: have been at all, well, yeah, and as many articles 478 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: have gone on to point out, it should have been 479 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: he said. They said, But um, when you are looking 480 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: at this in terms of outsiders perspectives, people who are 481 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: watching this hearing happen, so many women saw their own 482 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: experiences echoed in Hills experience, and so many men were 483 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: watching their fears about women making unsubstantiated but damaging claims 484 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: playing out of course, unsubstantiated in this case being in 485 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: air quotes. Um. And although Angela Right, for instance, back 486 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: then took issue with how black men were being portrayed 487 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: in the press, she said she was insulted that Thomas 488 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: was considered the best African American for the job. If 489 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: they're gonna, like try to maintain the racial balance of 490 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: the court, they can at least find a better, more 491 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: qualified guy, someone who doesn't have this sexually predatory past. Yeah, 492 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: I mean, And the thing is, like, Thomas was absolutely 493 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: right about the stereotypes of black men in this country, 494 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: but he was using that to play against like stereotypes 495 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: about women and and to discredit her. And but if 496 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: we put gender aside, the African American community at the 497 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: time largely stood behind Thomas. I mean to a lot 498 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: of people. Anita Hill, a black woman coming forward to 499 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: testify against a black man, I felt like betrayal. Yeah, yeah, 500 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: it goes against the idea of solidarity, standing with your community. 501 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: What Angela Wright said about you know, I hate how 502 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: black men are portrayed in the press. I don't want 503 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: to have another takedown campaign of a black man. But 504 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: there are better people for this role. And Anita Hill 505 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: in the documentary would say I had a gender and 506 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: he had a race. And she explained it to Slate's 507 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: Dollia Lithwick by saying that you have to keep in 508 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: mind that in Washington, d c. There was a great 509 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: deal of entitlement that went along with being male, and 510 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: they didn't take it into account, and instead they portrayed 511 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: him as an African American who could use the lynching 512 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: metaphor to his advantage. In other words, this is performance absolutely. 513 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,239 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, though, you know, Lithwick asked Hill how it 514 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: felt to hide her anger, because you know, we have 515 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: the whole stereotype about the angry black woman, which has 516 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: been used historically to marginalize women's intelligence and credibility. So 517 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: she has to mask all of that. Whereas Thomas is 518 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: able to use his as a way to exert power. 519 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: And Hill said, quote, I don't use my anger as 520 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: a strategy. And I think that that's what he was doing. 521 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: That was a strategy. I don't even know how real 522 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: it was. Yeah, and then you have you know, we've 523 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: mentioned this already. You've mentioned it earlier, Christian about going 524 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: back to early rape laws about women needing to uh, 525 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: they have to perform their anger, pain, fear. They've got 526 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: to run screaming through the town to prove that they 527 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: were raped. And this gets at the root of what 528 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: Democratic Arizona Senator Dynasty Concini said in that twenty four 529 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: documentary when he said that when women are harassed, they 530 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: ought to get angry and they ought to raise hell. 531 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: And Anita Hill is like, uh, excuse me what she says. 532 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: People can't tell us how we respond to our own problems. 533 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: They shouldn't say because she didn't act the way I 534 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: would have acted, it must not be true. You're supposed 535 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: to bang on the table. But she said, had I 536 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: done what Diconcini said, then I would have been caricatured 537 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: in a different way. I mean absolutely, they were already 538 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: trying to paint her as hysterical, and that only would 539 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: have played into that as well. But the thing is, 540 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: even after Thomas was confirmed, the gender discrediting efforts did 541 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: not stop. And this is where we have to talk 542 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: about an odious man, an odious writer named David Brock 543 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: and a book he wrote soon after the confirmation hearings 544 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: called The Real Anita Hill, and it was part of 545 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: a right wing smear campaign that continued after Thomas had 546 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: taken his seat at the bench to portray Hill as 547 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,240 Speaker 1: a man hater, a crusading leftist, and a feminist zealot, 548 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: along with being a spurned woman bent on revenge. So 549 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: the things that they would highlight where how this woman's 550 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: never been married, she doesn't have kids, she's ambitious in 551 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: her career. What is her deal? She must be unhinged, 552 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: not to mention she is a woman of color. What 553 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: is she doing in here? She just got into this 554 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: position thanks to affirmative action, and now she's, you know, 555 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: in caa hoots with feminist lawyer Katherine McKinnon to unleash 556 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: some kind of feminist campaign on this country. And we're 557 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: not going to stand for it. This feminist campaign to 558 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: make men act like human beings ha unthinkable. Oh and 559 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: we have to mention the most famous, slash infamous. I 560 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: feel like this whole thing is famous, slash infamous, this 561 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: phrase that Brock used and then was repeated. It feels 562 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: like every single review and even retrospective on the book 563 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: The Real and Anita Hill, in which he described her 564 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: as quote a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty. Yeah, 565 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: I mean it really his book really served to frame 566 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: the discourse for years, years and years until he came 567 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: out and apologized and said he had twisted the truth 568 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: at the behest of Republican politicians. I mean, but the 569 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: damage was already done. I Mean. The wildest thing to 570 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: me about all of this is how when that book 571 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: came out, reviewer after reviewer considered it almost like a 572 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: masterpiece of journalism. Um Deardre English wrote a pretty in 573 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: depth analysis of the book and the reviews that had 574 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: gotten in the nation in and she said the only 575 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: the only reviewer and commentator on it was op ed 576 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: columnists for The Times and a In Lynn who raised 577 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: the red flag saying like, uh, there's some underlying bias 578 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: that's pretty evident in Broxhole argument. And it seems like 579 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: he's distorting some assumptions. But even she said that he 580 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: had unearthed some compelling contradictions. But listen to this, Caroline, 581 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: This will this will get your blood boiling if it 582 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: isn't already. In response to this book over in Newsweek, 583 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: George Hill wrote that Anita Hill was not a victim 584 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment, but of quote the system of racial 585 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: preferences that put her on a track too fast for 586 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 1: her abilities and made her fluent in the rhetoric of victimization. 587 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 1: What but you know what, I see a lot of 588 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: that tone reflected in a lot of internet common today. 589 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you you're just reveling and being a victim. 590 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: Don't play the victim? Yeah, Why why do liberals or 591 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: feminists or trans people or whoever you are, Why do 592 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: you just want to be the victim? Well? And even 593 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: in uh a Newsweek article on this that we read 594 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: that came out a couple of years ago, even then, 595 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: it spent so much time focusing on like how she 596 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: looked and called her childless. At one point, it's like, seriously, 597 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: are we still are we really focusing on her uterus? 598 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: We are? Yeah, we are. Because Hill herself has said 599 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: that she feels that that part of her identity, being 600 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: a single woman who doesn't have children, really really colored 601 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 1: how people viewed her, the lens through which people viewed her, 602 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 1: and she says it still does, which is why again, 603 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: it's another part of why she wants to talk about 604 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: it now. Yeah, I mean, And even these contemporary articles 605 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: that we read for this podcast would usually circle back 606 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: to her relationship status being like, and it turns out 607 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: she's still not married, but don't worry. She has been 608 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: in a committed, happy, monogamous relationship with a with an 609 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: insurance salesman for a number of years. It's like fine, yeah, 610 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 1: It's like the subtext is still there. And almost immediately 611 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: though Hill's testimony had amazing ripple effects. Glorious Steinham, speaking 612 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: to Newsweek, said that when Hill was not believed, the 613 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: feeling was that this would cause fewer people to report 614 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, But what happened was the reverse. Because she 615 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: had opened up the subject, women began to talk to 616 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,919 Speaker 1: each other and discovered that this had happened to many 617 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: other women. So it turned out to be a huge 618 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: national teaching on sexual harassment. And sure enough, according to 619 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: e o C filings, sexual harassment cases in the wake 620 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: of her testimony more than doubled from just over six 621 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: thousand and nine to just over fifteen thousand in n 622 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: and over that same period you also see a war 623 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: its two victims under federal laws nearly quadrupling from seven 624 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: point seven million dollars to twenty seven point eight million dollars. So, 625 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: even though we clearly in t ST still have deeply 626 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: entrenched attitudes that allow sexual harassment to continue, clearly in 627 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: just that short period, women are starting to be heard. Yeah, 628 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: I mean, and as another part of the silver lining 629 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 1: to this horrific spectacle, you have more women in government. 630 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: When the hearing took place, just two women were in 631 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: the Senate, and of course none of whom were sitting 632 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: in front of Hill that day. But in Nino you 633 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: have what has been deemed the Year of the Woman, 634 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,280 Speaker 1: which has been credited to fall out from those hearings, 635 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: which drove a record number of women to run for office, 636 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: and women won four new Senate seats plus one incumbent 637 00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,959 Speaker 1: re election in twenty four new House seats. Yeah, so 638 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: clearly making a positive dent. Clearly women are like, oh no, 639 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: oh no, this isn't gonna happen again. Yeah, I mean, 640 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: and also once you have those women in Congress, you 641 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: also have more laws being passed tightening up sexual harassment 642 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, protections, and also um sexual harassment protections within 643 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: the government, like for government employees that were not previously there. Well, 644 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: so spoiler, I guess at this point, in case you 645 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: weren't aware, Clarence Thomas was confirmed. WHOOPI damn do whippy 646 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: damn do as he said. Uh, and he was approved 647 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: by a narrow margin, fifty two to forty eight. So 648 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: you know, even though all those Republicans and Democrats were 649 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:52,240 Speaker 1: in cahoots to suppress women's testimony, uh, still wasn't very popular. 650 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: But like Kristen said earlier, you know, he never let 651 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: go of that anger. And in that two thousand seven 652 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: autobiography he referred to Hill as my those traitorous adversary. 653 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: But Caroline, I've got a drop a fact that I 654 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 1: learned in the process of researching this podcast which blew 655 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: my mind, which sites like how of course, how much 656 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: he would hate Hill and consider her his most traitorous 657 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: adversary considering that one of his buds is a Russia Limbaugh, 658 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:29,720 Speaker 1: he who coined the term feminazi. He officiated Clarence Thomas 659 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: did rush Limbaugh's third now dissolved marriage. Yes, Caroline's eyes 660 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: a huge y'all. Oh, I hate it. Yeah, But enough 661 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 1: with those guys. What happened to Hill? What happened to 662 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,839 Speaker 1: Anita Hill? Well, she had grand plans to just go 663 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: back to her previously quiet and private life at the 664 00:42:54,760 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: University of Oklahoma teaching commercial law. But unfortunately, uh, I 665 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: guess life had other things in the cards because she 666 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,839 Speaker 1: didn't stay there long. Probably not because life had other 667 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: things in the cards. It probably had more to do 668 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: with the death threats she was receiving in addition to 669 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: facing a push from conservative lawmakers to fire her despite 670 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,800 Speaker 1: the fact, you know, she had um tenure. Ah. And 671 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: while she did want to return to commercial law and contracts, 672 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: so many people were clamoring at this point to understand 673 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: sexual harassment and related laws that she's kept her focus 674 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: on it. And now she's a professor of social policy, 675 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: law and women's Studies at Brandeis University. And she says 676 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: that women still come up to her with like tears 677 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: in their eyes, treating her like a celebrity, I mean, 678 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: which she is to a to a certain degree, but 679 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: just saying thank you for what you did. Oh, I mean, 680 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 1: such a heroine. Absolutely um And Gloria Steinem has said 681 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: that some senators since then have you know, kind of 682 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 1: come back and approached feminist leaders asking like what can 683 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: they do to kind of wrecked the I that wrong, 684 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: that was committed and sign Um just suggested apologize, just 685 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,880 Speaker 1: apologize for it. But they've not know they haven't. And 686 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: in a really weird twist, and this kicks off documentary, 687 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 1: Thomas's current wife, Jenny, who was not on the scene 688 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: during the hearings, left Anita Hill a bizarre voice message 689 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 1: at seven thirty in the morning on a Saturday on 690 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: her work phone saying, I would love you to consider 691 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 1: an apology sometime and some full explanation of what you 692 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: did with my husband. So give it some thought and 693 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: certainly pray about this and come to understand why you 694 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: did what you did. Okay, have a good day. And 695 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: the wild thing is that she was making that phone 696 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 1: call not in like two or three, that was in 697 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: and I mean, and she you know, invokes this prayer 698 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 1: rhetoric and stuff. And He'll herself is a devoted Christian, 699 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: you know, it's not. It's not a thing of like 700 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,240 Speaker 1: Anita Hill being a heathen um. But Hill, of course 701 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: was stunned by it and simply turned the voicemail over 702 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: to law enforcement authorities. She was not going to call 703 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 1: Jenny Thomas back up and have a little heart to heart. 704 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 1: And writing about this for The New Yorker, Jeffrey Tuban said, 705 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: virtually all the evidence that has emerged since the hearings 706 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,479 Speaker 1: corroborates Hill's version of events, and this of course makes 707 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: Jenny Thomas's phone call to Hill all the more puzzling. 708 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: And speaking of evidence that has emerged, you know, corroborating 709 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: Hill's testimony, I do want to recommend the book Strange Justice, 710 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: The Selling of Clarence Thomas by Jane Meyer and Jill Abramson, 711 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: because there's was the book that really, you know, kind 712 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 1: of through Brock's the quote unquote real Anita Hill to 713 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,359 Speaker 1: the wayside and journalistically, you know, revealed what was going 714 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: on with the case. Imagine that journalistically, Well, so you know, 715 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: everybody wants to know, like are you are you vengeful? Rageful? 716 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: Like do you throw darts at pictures of Clarence Thomas's 717 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: face as I would? Um? But Anita Hill has told 718 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 1: many reporter I mean, of course I'm angry. I'm angry 719 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,799 Speaker 1: with him, I'm angry with the senators. I'm probably less 720 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 1: angry than I was ten years ago, but it's still there. 721 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: And she talks about how bit by bit you let 722 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: go of anger, and she says, for me, the best 723 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: way to do that is to think about what my 724 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: contribution can be to make sure this doesn't happen to 725 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: other people. She said that the larger goal is both 726 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:52,359 Speaker 1: gender equality and racial equality, because both racism and sexism 727 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: contributed to my being victimized. But I don't want to 728 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: walk around being angry all the time. It's not constructive. 729 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,839 Speaker 1: And so not only she speak truth the power she 730 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: has been walking her talk. She is doing exactly that. 731 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,320 Speaker 1: And what she really wanted to accomplish with that most 732 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: recent documentary was for young women to know that history 733 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: and also to know that she's okay. I mean her 734 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 1: parents who were so old at the time, they sat 735 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 1: there watching this whole thing go down. She was, you know, 736 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,240 Speaker 1: one of was it. It was more than a dozen 737 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,360 Speaker 1: children like grew up in poverty. I mean, she worked 738 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: her way into you know that tenured professorship. Um. So 739 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 1: she also wants to shed light on the fact though, that, 740 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,040 Speaker 1: like we have emphasized so many times, this is not 741 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: an issue that was just frozen in time. Yeah, that 742 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,359 Speaker 1: we still have so much to accomplish, And she said 743 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,120 Speaker 1: that she basically looks at it from the perspective of, 744 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: you know, it took a lot of brave women for 745 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,160 Speaker 1: us to get where we are, but we have not 746 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 1: fixed the problem. All we've on is acknowledge it. Well, Caroline, 747 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 1: I do feel good that we have, you know, answered 748 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: Anita Hills call to spread this history to young women 749 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: and to all of the people listening to this podcast, 750 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: because it's something that we all need to know about absolutely, 751 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 1: and listeners, now, I want to hear from you. What 752 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 1: are your thoughts about it? I mean, does this experience 753 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,279 Speaker 1: resonate with things that you've experienced before. Mom Stuff at 754 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 1: House of Works dot com is our email address. You 755 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages 756 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to 757 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: share with you right now. Well, I have one here 758 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: from Michelle. She says, I just wanted to send through 759 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: an email thanking you for your recent podcast interviewing Emily 760 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,880 Speaker 1: Aries from bost Up. The first five minutes of the 761 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: podcast put a name to the roller custer of emotions 762 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: that I've been feeling for the last twelve months. Three 763 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: years ago, I packed up, left my family and friends, 764 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,000 Speaker 1: and moved to the opposite side of the country for what, 765 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,280 Speaker 1: on paper, was a great job. I've always prided myself 766 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 1: on being upbeat, enthusiastic, and passionate about my work. However, 767 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 1: by the time I reached the end of last year, 768 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,759 Speaker 1: I was a mess of exhaustion, anxiety, and cynicism. I 769 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: started obsessing over the simplest tasks at work, lost all motivation, 770 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,840 Speaker 1: and spent countless nights awake obsessing over the smallest details 771 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,160 Speaker 1: from the day. I had stopped exercising and socializing and 772 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,880 Speaker 1: was feeling isolated. I knew that my job was the 773 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: source of these feelings, but felt caught in a cycle 774 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,719 Speaker 1: that I couldn't get out of. At the beginning of 775 00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 1: this year, I realized that something had to give, and 776 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: I started considering a career change, but never felt quite 777 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,640 Speaker 1: brave enough to take the next step. The same day 778 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,160 Speaker 1: that I listened to your podcast, I finally worked up 779 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 1: the courage to submit an application for that job I've 780 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: always wanted. While it may amount to nothing, thanks to 781 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,439 Speaker 1: your podcast, the next step doesn't seem quite as big 782 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,279 Speaker 1: as it once did. Well, thanks, Michelle and good luck. 783 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: I've got a letter here from Alicia about our Sexiest 784 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: Emoji episode, which, by way, y'all, we've been getting so 785 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 1: much great feedback on that and so many great favorite emojis, 786 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:06,960 Speaker 1: she writes. A year and a half ago, I was 787 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,480 Speaker 1: painting a paint by number type mural in my bedroom 788 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,840 Speaker 1: wall and needed something to listen to while I worked. 789 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,360 Speaker 1: I was late to the podcast scene, so I asked 790 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,719 Speaker 1: around for recommendations, and my mom recommended your podcast, and 791 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,399 Speaker 1: I've been working on listening to every episode since then. 792 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,880 Speaker 1: Hi five Red Mom. When I listened to your Sexist 793 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 1: Emojis episode, it reminded me of a night this past December. 794 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,279 Speaker 1: My sister and I were home for the holidays, and 795 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 1: one evening we were sitting with my mom on her 796 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,800 Speaker 1: bed looking at all new emojis from the recent update. 797 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,680 Speaker 1: We joked that there needed to be a female version 798 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,239 Speaker 1: of the egg plant emoji, and we spent the next 799 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,719 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes scrolling through the list looking for an acceptable 800 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:49,439 Speaker 1: vulva representation again cool mom alert um. Anyway, our top 801 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,080 Speaker 1: two favorites are the taco and this side by side 802 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: pieces of sushi slash sushimi. To be honest, I'm still 803 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,760 Speaker 1: a little fuzzy on exactly when the egg plant emoji 804 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,480 Speaker 1: should be used, but I've been known to send my 805 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,759 Speaker 1: husband to sushimi to indicate that I'm interested in so 806 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,839 Speaker 1: bankey panky, Oh my gosh. Alicia, thank you so much, 807 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,160 Speaker 1: and thank you for introducing me to my new favorite 808 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: emoji and listeners. You can send your letters to mom 809 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 1: seven house at works dot com and for links all 810 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,000 Speaker 1: of our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, 811 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: and podcasts with our sources so you can learn more 812 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,160 Speaker 1: about the incredible Anita Hill. Head on over to stuff 813 00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:37,120 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this 814 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,799 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff Works 815 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:48,040 Speaker 1: dot com