WEBVTT - Making Oxygen on Mars 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.916 Pushkin, tell me about Moxie. 0:00:22.116 --> 0:00:28.916 Yeah, okay, so Moxie. Moxie is a very very cool device. 0:00:29.316 --> 0:00:32.196 It's a small box the size of a kind of 0:00:32.236 --> 0:00:34.796 a toaster oven, and it is actually kind of like 0:00:34.836 --> 0:00:38.196 a toaster because it gets quite hot. But it's inside 0:00:38.316 --> 0:00:40.316 the NASA Perseverance Rover. 0:00:40.996 --> 0:00:43.716 And just to be clear, where is the NASA Perseverance Rover. 0:00:43.876 --> 0:00:49.116 Oh, it's on Mars. Yeah. 0:00:49.156 --> 0:00:51.796 I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the 0:00:51.836 --> 0:00:54.396 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:00:54.436 --> 0:00:59.156 make technological progress. My guest today is Forest Mayan. He's 0:00:59.196 --> 0:01:02.796 the co founder and chief strategy officer of Lunar Outpost. 0:01:03.156 --> 0:01:06.356 It's a company that builds machines that go places. 0:01:06.116 --> 0:01:09.596 Like Mars and soon also to the Moon. 0:01:10.596 --> 0:01:13.516 Forest and his company are part of this space boom 0:01:13.796 --> 0:01:16.356 that is happening right now. We've seen it over the 0:01:16.396 --> 0:01:20.356 past decade or so with private rockets, cheaper space flights, 0:01:20.436 --> 0:01:23.636 and all kinds of new satellite applications. The bet that 0:01:23.676 --> 0:01:26.796 Forest is making at Lunar Outpost is that soon this 0:01:26.876 --> 0:01:30.476 boom will go beyond Earth's orbit, to the Moon and 0:01:30.636 --> 0:01:34.316 eventually beyond that. I talked with Forest about the Moon, 0:01:34.516 --> 0:01:37.476 about what private exploration of the Moon will look like 0:01:37.836 --> 0:01:40.516 and what problems Lunar Outpost is trying to solve to 0:01:40.516 --> 0:01:43.676 make that happen. But we started out by talking about Moxie, 0:01:43.836 --> 0:01:46.876 which Forest started working on as a grad student at MIT, 0:01:47.196 --> 0:01:50.356 even before he started Lunar Outposts, and that is on 0:01:50.556 --> 0:01:53.436 Mars right now. So what does Moxie do. 0:01:53.836 --> 0:01:58.316 So briefly, what Moxie does is it breathes in carbon 0:01:58.356 --> 0:02:03.236 dioxide from the atmosphere of Mars, and it breathes out 0:02:03.716 --> 0:02:08.596 oxygen as well as a little bit of carbon monoxide. 0:02:08.076 --> 0:02:10.636 Like a plant, like what a tree does on Earth. 0:02:10.876 --> 0:02:15.676 It's basically a tree, except we can control control how 0:02:15.756 --> 0:02:19.196 much oxygen it makes. And you know it does have 0:02:19.276 --> 0:02:23.156 some less than desirable byproducts, but that is not an 0:02:23.196 --> 0:02:25.596 issue in the total atmosphere of Mars. 0:02:27.236 --> 0:02:29.516 And I mean, I could guess why it would be 0:02:29.556 --> 0:02:32.836 useful to have a machine, a device that could turn 0:02:33.356 --> 0:02:36.516 carbo dioxi into oxygen on Mars, But tell me why 0:02:36.716 --> 0:02:37.396 is that useful? 0:02:38.156 --> 0:02:41.636 Sure? So, I think most people when they think about 0:02:41.676 --> 0:02:44.036 in a device that can make oxygen on Mars, the 0:02:44.076 --> 0:02:47.076 first thing they think about is, oh, of course, people 0:02:47.116 --> 0:02:49.836 need to breathe on Mars, and that's certainly the case. 0:02:50.196 --> 0:02:54.876 Producing oxygen for human life support is important. The real 0:02:54.916 --> 0:02:57.956 reason why we want to produce it is actually to 0:02:58.076 --> 0:03:02.796 make oxygen for rocket propel. It when you have a 0:03:02.876 --> 0:03:07.756 rocket at for example, a oxygen methane rocket, seventy eight 0:03:07.836 --> 0:03:12.036 percent of the mass of the propellant is just the oxidizer. 0:03:12.116 --> 0:03:14.436 It's the oxygen. It's something we don't notice on Earth 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:17.036 when we're driving a combustion car because the oxygen's all 0:03:17.076 --> 0:03:19.396 the way around us and it's free. But that's a 0:03:19.436 --> 0:03:23.996 huge amount of mass. And so by making that there, 0:03:24.076 --> 0:03:30.356 we can basically save billions of dollars of shipping twenty 0:03:30.396 --> 0:03:33.916 to thirty tons of oxygen needed to be on the 0:03:33.916 --> 0:03:37.356 surface of Mars just to get astronauts back up off 0:03:37.396 --> 0:03:39.076 the surface of Mars and back home. 0:03:39.636 --> 0:03:40.436 Uh huh. 0:03:40.516 --> 0:03:43.196 So it's the underlying idea, like the hardest part of 0:03:43.276 --> 0:03:45.356 go to Mars is coming back to Earth. 0:03:45.836 --> 0:03:49.076 That's one hundred percent the case. Yeah, And you know 0:03:49.156 --> 0:03:51.916 right now NASA is trying to do sample return, right. 0:03:51.956 --> 0:03:54.556 They want to bring a couple of rocks back and 0:03:54.636 --> 0:03:58.556 it's looking to be a very very expensive endeavor. So 0:03:58.596 --> 0:04:01.756 when you imagine the idea of bringing people back. That's 0:04:01.796 --> 0:04:05.756 really the key challenge. And we're talking billions of dollars 0:04:05.796 --> 0:04:12.556 of savings, maybe reducing completely eliminating three to six launches 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:15.396 of like the NASAs Space launch System just to get 0:04:15.396 --> 0:04:19.476 the materials over there. Because anything that you have on 0:04:19.516 --> 0:04:23.156 the surface of Mars you have to burn field to 0:04:23.156 --> 0:04:26.516 get it into Earth orbit. You have to burn field 0:04:26.516 --> 0:04:29.036 to get it to Mars. You have to burn field 0:04:29.076 --> 0:04:31.476 to get all the stuff that's needed to actually land 0:04:31.476 --> 0:04:32.956 it on the surface of Mars. 0:04:33.236 --> 0:04:35.876 Yeah. No, it's intuitive that it's hard to take a 0:04:35.916 --> 0:04:38.036 bunch of rocket fuel to Mars. I feel like that 0:04:38.236 --> 0:04:41.996 to la birth that is straightforward. And to be clear, 0:04:42.076 --> 0:04:45.476 Maxia is a sort of proof of concept, right. It's small, 0:04:45.596 --> 0:04:48.036 it's not like industrial scale, but is the notion that 0:04:48.556 --> 0:04:50.916 you could build a really big one using the same 0:04:51.596 --> 0:04:53.836 principles if you need it to or when the time 0:04:53.916 --> 0:04:55.116 comes exactly. 0:04:55.196 --> 0:04:57.756 Yeah, that was the purpose of it. I mean the 0:04:58.036 --> 0:05:02.636 Maxis comes from the idea of in situ resource utilization 0:05:03.316 --> 0:05:06.596 and more simply, it's living off the land on other 0:05:06.636 --> 0:05:08.036 planetary bodies. 0:05:07.756 --> 0:05:10.476 And living off the land is kind of your big idea, right, 0:05:10.476 --> 0:05:14.316 I feel like that's the big idea of your company. Yeah, 0:05:14.556 --> 0:05:16.916 understand it. Of your work is let's figure out how 0:05:16.956 --> 0:05:18.436 to live off the land on the moon. 0:05:18.396 --> 0:05:21.836 On Mars exactly. Yeah, that's the underlying theme everywhere, and 0:05:22.556 --> 0:05:25.916 we're just laying down the bricks to build the road 0:05:25.996 --> 0:05:28.876 to make that kind of part of a sustainable future 0:05:28.916 --> 0:05:29.436 in space. 0:05:30.356 --> 0:05:34.436 So tell me about when Moxie first got to Mars. 0:05:34.596 --> 0:05:36.316 You know, so you're working on this thing for years. 0:05:37.116 --> 0:05:40.516 It actually goes on a rocket ship, it goes to Mars, 0:05:40.556 --> 0:05:43.556 it lands on Mars. Is there some moment when you're 0:05:43.596 --> 0:05:46.556 like whatever, somebody's at the computer that's like, okay, let's 0:05:46.596 --> 0:05:47.956 turn it on and see if it works. 0:05:48.836 --> 0:05:51.676 So, I mean the first the first exciting part was, 0:05:51.716 --> 0:05:54.156 you know, did it land right? Like obviously, going to 0:05:54.236 --> 0:05:57.476 Mars that's pretty scary. Lots of things can go wrong. 0:05:57.596 --> 0:05:59.716 So it landed great. And then we go into this 0:05:59.796 --> 0:06:02.996 initial phase where we're checking out the systems of the vehicle. 0:06:03.556 --> 0:06:07.236 So it goes through the list and our checkout was 0:06:07.396 --> 0:06:10.316 you know, one item in that list, and Maxie. 0:06:10.076 --> 0:06:12.476 Is just like a little like toaster of insized box 0:06:12.636 --> 0:06:15.356 inside the rover somewhere correct whatever, the belly of the 0:06:15.436 --> 0:06:16.356 rover something just. 0:06:16.636 --> 0:06:18.716 Yeah, basically just sit in the belly of the rover. 0:06:18.796 --> 0:06:21.156 It has a little filtered to the outside of the rover, 0:06:21.796 --> 0:06:23.516 and so the rover like turns on, it goes through 0:06:23.516 --> 0:06:28.876 its list, and then the satellites are orbiting Mars. There's 0:06:28.996 --> 0:06:33.276 like five different satellites and when one gets overhead then 0:06:33.276 --> 0:06:35.556 it can send some data back. And so generally you 0:06:35.596 --> 0:06:37.836 see a command and you don't get information back on 0:06:37.916 --> 0:06:40.476 if it worked until the next day. So in the 0:06:40.516 --> 0:06:43.716 next day, the real exciting moment is not not when 0:06:43.756 --> 0:06:46.156 it actually happened, but when you actually downlink the data 0:06:46.636 --> 0:06:49.396 and you open up the file and you see what's there. 0:06:49.836 --> 0:06:52.396 And so that very first checkout, you know, we open 0:06:52.476 --> 0:06:54.876 up the file, we see what's there, we saw it 0:06:54.876 --> 0:06:56.676 turned on. That was kind of the. 0:06:56.716 --> 0:07:01.796 Okay, that's that's non trivial, it's step one, so okay. 0:07:02.116 --> 0:07:04.716 Then then the next checkout was basically to turn it 0:07:04.756 --> 0:07:07.956 on and run the pump, which was also kind of 0:07:07.956 --> 0:07:10.796 another incremental step. But then the very exciting moment, of course, 0:07:10.836 --> 0:07:13.596 as you can imagine, is kind of the third time 0:07:13.636 --> 0:07:17.916 we actually sent commands to the rover is when we 0:07:17.916 --> 0:07:21.676 were going to heat up the cells. So the chemistry 0:07:21.716 --> 0:07:26.996 happens at eight hundred degrees celsius. Very hot, because it's 0:07:26.996 --> 0:07:30.556 really hot, yeah, very hot, Like I said, like a toaster, 0:07:31.396 --> 0:07:31.756 like a. 0:07:31.716 --> 0:07:34.236 Really hot toaster, right, very hot. 0:07:34.196 --> 0:07:36.956 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, so hot that normal 0:07:37.076 --> 0:07:39.476 metals and stuff. You got to use special metals so 0:07:39.716 --> 0:07:42.756 things don't melt in the grade. So it heats up. 0:07:42.996 --> 0:07:46.476 The scroll pub starts pumping, the gas goes in and 0:07:46.516 --> 0:07:50.396 then it's this chemical reaction happens on these ceramic cells 0:07:51.196 --> 0:07:54.476 that allow the and you apply a voltage across it, 0:07:54.876 --> 0:07:58.636 and then the voltage pulls strips oxygen ions off of 0:07:58.676 --> 0:08:02.596 the cells and actually bounces it through this kind of 0:08:02.596 --> 0:08:06.276 ceramic material and then it joins up with our oxygen 0:08:06.316 --> 0:08:08.996 on the other side. And then you get the data 0:08:09.196 --> 0:08:11.396 of the current flow, which tells you how much oxygen 0:08:11.476 --> 0:08:11.956 was produced. 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:14.276 So, so is there a day. Is there a day 0:08:14.316 --> 0:08:16.476 when you come in and turn on your computer and 0:08:16.716 --> 0:08:19.716 see if moxie actually produced oxygen? Yeah? 0:08:19.716 --> 0:08:22.316 So we knew and downlink was going to happen. Everyone 0:08:22.436 --> 0:08:24.876 was on zoom. This was in the middle of the pandemic, 0:08:24.956 --> 0:08:27.836 so everyone's remote and we pull up the data. You 0:08:27.876 --> 0:08:29.916 know this It took many years to happen. So one 0:08:29.956 --> 0:08:33.876 of the students that was actually an intern under me 0:08:33.996 --> 0:08:37.076 that I kind of mentored on Moxie. Her name's Maya. 0:08:37.196 --> 0:08:39.796 She was the one kind of unzipping the data. Fen 0:08:39.876 --> 0:08:41.996 she pulls up the plots, We get the data and 0:08:42.076 --> 0:08:44.356 then we see the little line that goes across of 0:08:44.516 --> 0:08:47.156 you know, oxygen production, and then we knew he did it, 0:08:47.316 --> 0:08:50.756 and that was it was a big moment. I think 0:08:50.796 --> 0:08:54.836 that was, oh, you know, like five and a half years, 0:08:55.116 --> 0:08:58.276 you know, five years into my experience being on the program. 0:08:58.356 --> 0:09:01.636 So it was you know, you've been waiting a long 0:09:01.676 --> 0:09:03.316 time for something you think it's hard to wait for, 0:09:03.396 --> 0:09:06.956 you know, as a kid waiting for Christmas, Like, uh, 0:09:07.236 --> 0:09:10.356 is at least that exciting, I would hope. 0:09:10.396 --> 0:09:13.956 So I would hope it's more exciting because like it 0:09:14.036 --> 0:09:16.116 might not work, right, Lots of things go to Mars 0:09:16.156 --> 0:09:18.196 and don't work. Like that's not a it's not a 0:09:18.196 --> 0:09:21.236 crazy outcome for a thing do not work. So Moxie worked. 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:24.796 By the way, what does Moxie stand for? 0:09:25.876 --> 0:09:30.356 In the great tradition of aerospace, it's a acronym with 0:09:30.436 --> 0:09:36.476 an acronym in it, So Moxie stands for Mars oxygen ISRU. 0:09:37.236 --> 0:09:41.316 Experiment ISRU stands for institu Resource Utilization. 0:09:42.076 --> 0:09:43.676 I want it to be I wanted to be like 0:09:43.756 --> 0:09:47.316 seven acronyms deep. I want it to be an acronym 0:09:47.316 --> 0:09:49.556 with it. I wanted to be a Russian doll of acronyms. 0:09:50.076 --> 0:09:52.276 I did notice when I was prepairing for this interview, 0:09:52.316 --> 0:09:55.276 like all of the different missions and all of your 0:09:55.316 --> 0:09:57.956 different vehicles, they work like everything is an acronym, and 0:09:57.996 --> 0:10:00.236 the first time like, oh, Moxie, that's clever, and then 0:10:00.276 --> 0:10:02.396 by the seventh acronym you're like, I don't even want 0:10:02.396 --> 0:10:07.236 to know. So okay, So you built Moxie. Somewhere along 0:10:07.276 --> 0:10:09.716 the way between when you started work looking on it 0:10:09.836 --> 0:10:12.076 and when you found out that it worked, you started 0:10:12.076 --> 0:10:16.396 a company. So just stepping back, then, what is your 0:10:16.956 --> 0:10:20.476 your dream really for your work and for lunar outposts, Like, 0:10:20.516 --> 0:10:22.196 what's your big idea? 0:10:23.436 --> 0:10:29.876 Yeah, I think the the big idea is to and 0:10:30.436 --> 0:10:37.596 is to really utilize the Moon as Earth's next continent, right, Like, 0:10:38.036 --> 0:10:41.316 you have the Moon up there, it's not that far away, 0:10:42.276 --> 0:10:47.316 and it's full of resources that could be used for 0:10:47.436 --> 0:10:52.556 the electrification of vehicles on Earth that could be used 0:10:52.556 --> 0:10:56.476 to send us out deeper into space, and the you know, 0:10:56.516 --> 0:10:59.556 the environmental cost of utilizing these resources on the Moon 0:10:59.676 --> 0:11:04.116 is almost non existent. Right. You can basically offshore a 0:11:04.116 --> 0:11:07.436 lot of these challenges that are done with development on 0:11:07.516 --> 0:11:12.876 Earth onto the Moon in a much kind of safer environment. 0:11:13.476 --> 0:11:15.996 And so that's that's kind of the broad vision, right, 0:11:16.116 --> 0:11:19.476 is to really utilize the Moon to benefit everyone here 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:20.436 back on Earth. 0:11:21.436 --> 0:11:24.636 Clearly, at this moment, it's very very very very expensive 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:26.956 to get to the Moon and back, right, Yeah, like 0:11:27.316 --> 0:11:32.196 whatever a million dollars a kilogram or something makes it 0:11:32.236 --> 0:11:34.196 hard for minding to make economic sense. I mean, is 0:11:34.236 --> 0:11:36.516 that the big barrier? It just cost so much to 0:11:36.516 --> 0:11:37.236 get there and back. 0:11:38.276 --> 0:11:41.636 Yeah, I would say that. And then you know, there's 0:11:41.676 --> 0:11:46.436 certain types of like processing techniques that you need to solve. 0:11:46.556 --> 0:11:49.716 And then for us, it's you know, the reliable robotics, 0:11:49.716 --> 0:11:52.556 and that's what we're focusing on. We see a lot 0:11:52.556 --> 0:11:55.596 of the barriers coming down. When Elon Musk is talking 0:11:55.596 --> 0:11:57.996 about you know, starship, we think that's going to make 0:11:58.156 --> 0:12:01.356 a huge step change in the amount of mass that 0:12:01.396 --> 0:12:03.676 can be brought to and from the Moon, and that's 0:12:03.716 --> 0:12:06.796 going to forever change humanity's relationship with the Moon, because 0:12:06.836 --> 0:12:09.996 it it will go from you know, millions of dollars 0:12:10.036 --> 0:12:13.316 per kilogram to get to the Moon to hundreds of 0:12:13.316 --> 0:12:16.116 thousands overnight. And I think in a shorter period of 0:12:16.116 --> 0:12:18.436 time than that you could be looking at ten thousand 0:12:18.476 --> 0:12:20.556 dollars or less per kilogram. 0:12:20.676 --> 0:12:24.916 So you're talking about like one hundred x improvement in efficiency. Like, yeah, 0:12:25.236 --> 0:12:28.316 I thing that costs a dollar net will cost a penny. Yeah, 0:12:29.396 --> 0:12:32.276 what five years? Ten years? 0:12:32.556 --> 0:12:34.716 Yeah, I mean it could come as soon as five 0:12:34.796 --> 0:12:37.876 years that I guess those initial starship launches, and then 0:12:37.916 --> 0:12:39.476 within ten years it's going to be there. 0:12:39.556 --> 0:12:42.116 I mean, is that the underlying bet of your company. 0:12:42.116 --> 0:12:44.796 You're sort of riding on that on the back of 0:12:44.836 --> 0:12:45.356 that bet. 0:12:46.636 --> 0:12:48.636 It's coming down the pipe, and I think we're timing 0:12:48.676 --> 0:12:52.356 it right. In the near term, we've found ways to 0:12:52.756 --> 0:12:56.796 basically provide services here and now that are in high demand, 0:12:57.596 --> 0:13:00.716 which is basically just access to explore the lunar surface 0:13:00.836 --> 0:13:06.956 to do interesting commercial experiences as well as help other 0:13:07.076 --> 0:13:11.036 nations kick off their space programs on the lunar surface. 0:13:11.836 --> 0:13:14.436 So let's talk about what you're working on now. I 0:13:14.476 --> 0:13:17.196 know you have a few different projects, a few different 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:23.476 acronymst little machines going too the Moon soon, right, Like, 0:13:23.516 --> 0:13:26.276 what's the what's the first one? What do you have 0:13:26.316 --> 0:13:27.276 that's about to go to the Moon? 0:13:27.316 --> 0:13:27.636 What is it? 0:13:27.636 --> 0:13:28.396 And when's it going to go? 0:13:28.916 --> 0:13:31.836 Yeah, So our first one, we've been calling them lunar voyages, 0:13:32.316 --> 0:13:35.996 So Lunar Voyage one is going to be our map rover, 0:13:36.556 --> 0:13:42.156 and this one is going to go basically early twenty 0:13:42.196 --> 0:13:44.796 twenty four. So we're getting ready. We're just kind of 0:13:44.796 --> 0:13:47.196 figuring out when the when the launch is going to 0:13:47.276 --> 0:13:49.436 be with the rockets, I. 0:13:49.396 --> 0:13:52.116 Feel like in space terms, that's like five minutes from now. 0:13:52.236 --> 0:13:54.916 Oh yeah, yeah, the vehicle is you know, we're we're 0:13:54.956 --> 0:13:58.836 packing up the vehicle and getting it down to the 0:13:58.916 --> 0:14:03.276 Lander provider. So this is yeah, it's it's all the 0:14:03.316 --> 0:14:06.396 hard work's been done on this vehicle. What's unique about 0:14:06.436 --> 0:14:09.436 this this mission a couple of things. Is kind of 0:14:09.476 --> 0:14:12.996 in a race to be the first commercial rover ever 0:14:13.076 --> 0:14:16.116 to the surface of the Moon India Center Rover, you know, 0:14:16.196 --> 0:14:19.796 Russia has of course the United States and China, but 0:14:19.836 --> 0:14:24.516 we would be a commercial company from Golden Colorado sending 0:14:24.516 --> 0:14:27.396 a commercial rover, and so to do that, we've partnered 0:14:27.436 --> 0:14:30.596 with different commercial companies, so We have no Kia that's 0:14:30.636 --> 0:14:36.236 testing LTE technology on the Moon. We have Mi T 0:14:36.636 --> 0:14:39.436 and NASA aimes have some cool cameras that we're sending, 0:14:39.556 --> 0:14:41.996 and a little miniature rover that drives on top of 0:14:42.036 --> 0:14:46.116 our rover. We have a company that's put a private 0:14:46.196 --> 0:14:49.236 key for a Bitcoin treasure chest on the rover, so 0:14:49.276 --> 0:14:51.476 if you find our rover, you get a treasure chest. 0:14:54.836 --> 0:14:58.516 So I mean it's all business, right. 0:15:00.636 --> 0:15:02.756 Yeah, you can put a giant billboard on the Moon. 0:15:02.836 --> 0:15:04.156 So when I look at the Moon, I see an 0:15:04.156 --> 0:15:05.996 ad for bitcoin. Don't do it? 0:15:06.036 --> 0:15:11.076 Well? Yeah, the scale of that be outrageous. 0:15:12.236 --> 0:15:16.836 Yes, and not just the scale. So when you're making 0:15:16.876 --> 0:15:22.236 a point about being the first commercial rover, like, why 0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:24.236 does that matter? What does it mean? I mean, are 0:15:24.276 --> 0:15:28.036 there legal implications? Is it just cool? From a business standpoint? 0:15:28.116 --> 0:15:32.516 I think it matters because it emphasizes the shift in 0:15:33.396 --> 0:15:36.036 Earth's relationship with the Moon, where the Earth is just 0:15:36.116 --> 0:15:40.436 not for the big dogs in you know, on the 0:15:40.516 --> 0:15:44.596 national stage, right, the big countries with massively funded programs. 0:15:45.196 --> 0:15:47.196 If commercial company can get to the Moon, that means 0:15:47.236 --> 0:15:50.836 the Moon's for everyone, right, And we also kind of 0:15:50.876 --> 0:15:55.916 remove some of the gatekeepers of access to the Moon. Right, 0:15:55.996 --> 0:15:59.596 So the research group from MIT was able to raise 0:15:59.676 --> 0:16:03.916 funding with some of their supporters to put a some 0:16:03.996 --> 0:16:07.436 payloads on the Moon, right. I mean that's and without 0:16:07.516 --> 0:16:10.716 having to go through a big long proposal process and 0:16:11.276 --> 0:16:14.636 all sorts of other things. That just hoping to try 0:16:14.676 --> 0:16:17.116 to get your experiment to the moon, which is kind 0:16:17.116 --> 0:16:20.076 of the you know, the old way of doing it. 0:16:20.476 --> 0:16:23.996 So but we're definitely like broadening the reach of who 0:16:24.076 --> 0:16:27.716 can go there and do interesting and exciting things and 0:16:27.756 --> 0:16:31.596 really really form a stronger connection with the Moon that 0:16:31.796 --> 0:16:33.236 you know, we see every single night. 0:16:36.396 --> 0:16:39.196 In a minute, how forrest rover is getting to the 0:16:39.196 --> 0:16:42.436 Moon and what could go wrong once it gets there? 0:16:59.156 --> 0:17:02.196 Now back to the show, how's your rover getting to 0:17:02.236 --> 0:17:02.556 the Moon? 0:17:03.516 --> 0:17:07.316 It's being packaged into a lander built by intuitive machines. 0:17:08.116 --> 0:17:12.476 That lander is and going into a SpaceX Falcon nine rocket, 0:17:13.836 --> 0:17:17.476 and then that rocket is going to launch from Kennedy 0:17:17.476 --> 0:17:18.436 Space Center, Florida. 0:17:18.956 --> 0:17:22.116 So even the rocket is private, like the whole it's 0:17:22.156 --> 0:17:25.076 sort of end to end a private mission as opposed 0:17:25.116 --> 0:17:27.796 to kind of piggybacking on a government mission. 0:17:27.916 --> 0:17:31.476 Correct. Correct, Now, the NASA has made some really smart 0:17:31.596 --> 0:17:36.156 choices that have enabled this to happen, and there is 0:17:36.196 --> 0:17:39.276 definitely NASA money involved in order to make the whole 0:17:39.636 --> 0:17:42.236 kind of help build the road to space. So NASA 0:17:42.276 --> 0:17:45.796 started a program called the Commercial Lunar Payloads Services Program 0:17:45.796 --> 0:17:49.876 where they're contracting lunar landers to send NASA payloads to 0:17:49.916 --> 0:17:53.636 the Moon, but they're allowing these landers to sell extra 0:17:53.796 --> 0:17:59.396 space to commercial interests in order to reduce NASA's costs 0:17:59.396 --> 0:18:01.076 but also kind of open it up. And so we've 0:18:01.116 --> 0:18:03.676 taken advantage of it. So the Intuitive Machines Lander that 0:18:03.716 --> 0:18:07.396 we're going on has a lot of NASA funded payloads 0:18:07.436 --> 0:18:09.796 and a lot of NASA funding, and we're kind of 0:18:09.836 --> 0:18:13.036 on the ride share side, so we're just hitching a 0:18:13.116 --> 0:18:15.116 ride on another vehicle. 0:18:16.356 --> 0:18:21.716 So, you know, I I'm very pro progress, pro technology, 0:18:21.756 --> 0:18:24.716 pro private enterprise, but there is some part of me, 0:18:24.956 --> 0:18:28.636 some hippyish part of me that's like a little bit 0:18:28.796 --> 0:18:34.396 sad about mining the Moon and you know, bitcoin on 0:18:34.476 --> 0:18:38.676 the Moon, Like, I don't know, can you talk me 0:18:38.756 --> 0:18:40.516 out of being sad about that side of it? 0:18:41.596 --> 0:18:45.636 Yeah, certainly. So I think there's enough moon for everyone. 0:18:45.956 --> 0:18:49.956 You know, the visible change will not exist. You know, 0:18:49.996 --> 0:18:52.196 you'll still see the moon, It'll still be there. We're 0:18:52.196 --> 0:18:54.036 not gonna have any impact on the total mass of 0:18:54.036 --> 0:18:56.316 the Moon or how the tides change or anything like that. 0:18:56.396 --> 0:19:00.796 This is very minuscule compared to the size of it. 0:19:01.476 --> 0:19:03.916 And the other thing is like, we're you know, taking 0:19:03.956 --> 0:19:07.436 philosophies I leave no trace and things like that to 0:19:07.716 --> 0:19:10.556 make sure that, you know, we don't leave a mess 0:19:10.636 --> 0:19:12.636 up there, right. We want to do this in a 0:19:13.636 --> 0:19:16.596 way where we're not polluting the environment in a way 0:19:16.596 --> 0:19:18.596 that it makes it difficult for other people to go 0:19:18.636 --> 0:19:20.596 to the Moon and utilize it in the future. And 0:19:20.636 --> 0:19:23.756 I think that's another important point to take home. 0:19:24.356 --> 0:19:27.756 Is there some kind of international law? Is there a 0:19:27.836 --> 0:19:33.956 treaty or something that governs behavior of individuals, firms, nations 0:19:34.476 --> 0:19:34.996 on the moon. 0:19:36.116 --> 0:19:41.436 Yeah, so there's there's a number of like agreements in place. 0:19:41.476 --> 0:19:46.156 I think the most recent one that NASA is trying 0:19:46.156 --> 0:19:49.356 to bring nations into is kind of like the Artemis Accords, 0:19:49.396 --> 0:19:53.276 which kind of lays a groundwork for some you know, 0:19:53.396 --> 0:19:57.276 rules on the surface of the Moon. NASA's actually been trying. 0:19:56.956 --> 0:20:00.436 To Countries can't even agree to rules on Earth, right, 0:20:01.076 --> 0:20:04.036 it seems hard. It seems like a hard problem. I mean, 0:20:04.876 --> 0:20:07.636 I wouldn't imagine for example, China, which has its own 0:20:07.876 --> 0:20:13.316 space wanting to sort of follow the United States lead. Yeah, 0:20:13.316 --> 0:20:14.476 and how is it going? 0:20:15.076 --> 0:20:18.796 Yeah? And there there are countries that are not right 0:20:19.196 --> 0:20:24.996 and there's not a really established, universally accepted authority over 0:20:25.036 --> 0:20:29.716 the moon. So that is one of the most interesting 0:20:29.796 --> 0:20:32.636 things about this endeavor is how will that shake up? 0:20:32.676 --> 0:20:36.196 Because there may be even disagreements of countries if our 0:20:36.276 --> 0:20:40.516 rover even has a right to drive across the moon, right, Yeah, 0:20:41.156 --> 0:20:43.276 but we're going to be there, and we're going to 0:20:43.356 --> 0:20:46.796 drive across the moon, and you know, it's accepted by 0:20:46.836 --> 0:20:48.836 the country where we live, and so there's there's a 0:20:48.836 --> 0:20:51.636 lot of stuff that's going to have to be sorted out. 0:20:51.756 --> 0:20:54.796 But like any frontier, I think that little bit of 0:20:54.996 --> 0:21:00.396 kind of uncertainty creates opportunities for the early movers to 0:21:00.476 --> 0:21:01.996 kind of help shape what that looks like. 0:21:02.556 --> 0:21:04.516 So you built this rover that's going to go to 0:21:04.556 --> 0:21:09.116 the Moon soon. It's called MAP. I guess we got 0:21:09.236 --> 0:21:10.996 to do the acronym. What's MAP stand. 0:21:10.756 --> 0:21:14.676 For Mobile Autonomous Prospecting Platform. 0:21:15.396 --> 0:21:21.316 Okay, what's it look like? What's MAP look like? 0:21:22.116 --> 0:21:24.836 It's a four wheeled rover. You know, you often see 0:21:24.876 --> 0:21:27.116 a lot with like six wheels. Map has four wheels. 0:21:27.636 --> 0:21:30.476 How big is it? How big is it? 0:21:30.476 --> 0:21:33.716 It's the size of some people say like a like 0:21:33.756 --> 0:21:38.396 a medium sized dog. So it's maybe like a you know, 0:21:38.676 --> 0:21:42.556 two feet by two feet square. Definitely not huge. So 0:21:42.636 --> 0:21:46.196 it has it has two cameras or eyes right on 0:21:46.276 --> 0:21:48.516 top of its front, and then it has another camera 0:21:48.556 --> 0:21:51.516 that kind of looks like a little nose. And now 0:21:51.596 --> 0:21:54.956 we've added the MIT camera payload below that, so you 0:21:54.956 --> 0:21:57.596 can even say, maybe that looks like a mouth, but yeah, 0:21:57.676 --> 0:21:59.996 it actually sees like a like a human as well. 0:22:00.036 --> 0:22:03.116 So the two cameras on the front, I'll give it 0:22:03.236 --> 0:22:06.476 stereoscopic vision, so it can kind of see in three 0:22:06.596 --> 0:22:09.996 D as it drives across the surface. So for this 0:22:10.076 --> 0:22:13.676 first mission, as I mentioned, one of our flagship customers 0:22:13.716 --> 0:22:17.156 is Nokia, and we're testing their antenna system. And so 0:22:17.236 --> 0:22:20.276 the rover has these big antennas in the in the 0:22:20.316 --> 0:22:22.996 back that will actually deploy on the surface, so there's 0:22:23.036 --> 0:22:25.836 a trust structure, and then we'll fire some pins and 0:22:25.876 --> 0:22:28.316 they'll flip up in the air. And that's so that 0:22:28.356 --> 0:22:30.796 their antennas are nice and high off the ground so 0:22:30.836 --> 0:22:33.316 we can maximize the range of the rover. 0:22:34.116 --> 0:22:37.476 And the idea is to have a basically wireless communications 0:22:37.476 --> 0:22:39.116 and network on the moon. That's kind of what you're 0:22:39.156 --> 0:22:39.676 testing with that. 0:22:40.036 --> 0:22:40.276 Yep. 0:22:40.556 --> 0:22:42.956 Yeah, how do you drive it? How do you tell 0:22:42.956 --> 0:22:43.716 the rover where to go? 0:22:43.956 --> 0:22:47.236 It's kind of like a like a turn based strategy game. 0:22:47.316 --> 0:22:48.876