1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin, tell me about Moxie. 2 00:00:22,116 --> 00:00:28,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so Moxie. Moxie is a very very cool device. 3 00:00:29,316 --> 00:00:32,196 Speaker 2: It's a small box the size of a kind of 4 00:00:32,236 --> 00:00:34,796 Speaker 2: a toaster oven, and it is actually kind of like 5 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:38,196 Speaker 2: a toaster because it gets quite hot. But it's inside 6 00:00:38,316 --> 00:00:40,316 Speaker 2: the NASA Perseverance Rover. 7 00:00:40,996 --> 00:00:43,716 Speaker 1: And just to be clear, where is the NASA Perseverance Rover. 8 00:00:43,876 --> 00:00:49,116 Speaker 2: Oh, it's on Mars. Yeah. 9 00:00:49,156 --> 00:00:51,796 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the 10 00:00:51,836 --> 00:00:54,396 Speaker 1: show where I talk to people who are trying to 11 00:00:54,436 --> 00:00:59,156 Speaker 1: make technological progress. My guest today is Forest Mayan. He's 12 00:00:59,196 --> 00:01:02,796 Speaker 1: the co founder and chief strategy officer of Lunar Outpost. 13 00:01:03,156 --> 00:01:06,356 Speaker 1: It's a company that builds machines that go places. 14 00:01:06,116 --> 00:01:09,596 Speaker 3: Like Mars and soon also to the Moon. 15 00:01:10,596 --> 00:01:13,516 Speaker 1: Forest and his company are part of this space boom 16 00:01:13,796 --> 00:01:16,356 Speaker 1: that is happening right now. We've seen it over the 17 00:01:16,396 --> 00:01:20,356 Speaker 1: past decade or so with private rockets, cheaper space flights, 18 00:01:20,436 --> 00:01:23,636 Speaker 1: and all kinds of new satellite applications. The bet that 19 00:01:23,676 --> 00:01:26,796 Speaker 1: Forest is making at Lunar Outpost is that soon this 20 00:01:26,876 --> 00:01:30,476 Speaker 1: boom will go beyond Earth's orbit, to the Moon and 21 00:01:30,636 --> 00:01:34,316 Speaker 1: eventually beyond that. I talked with Forest about the Moon, 22 00:01:34,516 --> 00:01:37,476 Speaker 1: about what private exploration of the Moon will look like 23 00:01:37,836 --> 00:01:40,516 Speaker 1: and what problems Lunar Outpost is trying to solve to 24 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:43,676 Speaker 1: make that happen. But we started out by talking about Moxie, 25 00:01:43,836 --> 00:01:46,876 Speaker 1: which Forest started working on as a grad student at MIT, 26 00:01:47,196 --> 00:01:50,356 Speaker 1: even before he started Lunar Outposts, and that is on 27 00:01:50,556 --> 00:01:53,436 Speaker 1: Mars right now. So what does Moxie do. 28 00:01:53,836 --> 00:01:58,316 Speaker 2: So briefly, what Moxie does is it breathes in carbon 29 00:01:58,356 --> 00:02:03,236 Speaker 2: dioxide from the atmosphere of Mars, and it breathes out 30 00:02:03,716 --> 00:02:08,596 Speaker 2: oxygen as well as a little bit of carbon monoxide. 31 00:02:08,076 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: Like a plant, like what a tree does on Earth. 32 00:02:10,876 --> 00:02:15,676 Speaker 2: It's basically a tree, except we can control control how 33 00:02:15,756 --> 00:02:19,196 Speaker 2: much oxygen it makes. And you know it does have 34 00:02:19,276 --> 00:02:23,156 Speaker 2: some less than desirable byproducts, but that is not an 35 00:02:23,196 --> 00:02:25,596 Speaker 2: issue in the total atmosphere of Mars. 36 00:02:27,236 --> 00:02:29,516 Speaker 1: And I mean, I could guess why it would be 37 00:02:29,556 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 1: useful to have a machine, a device that could turn 38 00:02:33,356 --> 00:02:36,516 Speaker 1: carbo dioxi into oxygen on Mars, But tell me why 39 00:02:36,716 --> 00:02:37,396 Speaker 1: is that useful? 40 00:02:38,156 --> 00:02:41,636 Speaker 2: Sure? So, I think most people when they think about 41 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:44,036 Speaker 2: in a device that can make oxygen on Mars, the 42 00:02:44,076 --> 00:02:47,076 Speaker 2: first thing they think about is, oh, of course, people 43 00:02:47,116 --> 00:02:49,836 Speaker 2: need to breathe on Mars, and that's certainly the case. 44 00:02:50,196 --> 00:02:54,876 Speaker 2: Producing oxygen for human life support is important. The real 45 00:02:54,916 --> 00:02:57,956 Speaker 2: reason why we want to produce it is actually to 46 00:02:58,076 --> 00:03:02,796 Speaker 2: make oxygen for rocket propel. It when you have a 47 00:03:02,876 --> 00:03:07,756 Speaker 2: rocket at for example, a oxygen methane rocket, seventy eight 48 00:03:07,836 --> 00:03:12,036 Speaker 2: percent of the mass of the propellant is just the oxidizer. 49 00:03:12,116 --> 00:03:14,436 Speaker 2: It's the oxygen. It's something we don't notice on Earth 50 00:03:14,476 --> 00:03:17,036 Speaker 2: when we're driving a combustion car because the oxygen's all 51 00:03:17,076 --> 00:03:19,396 Speaker 2: the way around us and it's free. But that's a 52 00:03:19,436 --> 00:03:23,996 Speaker 2: huge amount of mass. And so by making that there, 53 00:03:24,076 --> 00:03:30,356 Speaker 2: we can basically save billions of dollars of shipping twenty 54 00:03:30,396 --> 00:03:33,916 Speaker 2: to thirty tons of oxygen needed to be on the 55 00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:37,356 Speaker 2: surface of Mars just to get astronauts back up off 56 00:03:37,396 --> 00:03:39,076 Speaker 2: the surface of Mars and back home. 57 00:03:39,636 --> 00:03:40,436 Speaker 3: Uh huh. 58 00:03:40,516 --> 00:03:43,196 Speaker 1: So it's the underlying idea, like the hardest part of 59 00:03:43,276 --> 00:03:45,356 Speaker 1: go to Mars is coming back to Earth. 60 00:03:45,836 --> 00:03:49,076 Speaker 2: That's one hundred percent the case. Yeah, And you know 61 00:03:49,156 --> 00:03:51,916 Speaker 2: right now NASA is trying to do sample return, right. 62 00:03:51,956 --> 00:03:54,556 Speaker 2: They want to bring a couple of rocks back and 63 00:03:54,636 --> 00:03:58,556 Speaker 2: it's looking to be a very very expensive endeavor. So 64 00:03:58,596 --> 00:04:01,756 Speaker 2: when you imagine the idea of bringing people back. That's 65 00:04:01,796 --> 00:04:05,756 Speaker 2: really the key challenge. And we're talking billions of dollars 66 00:04:05,796 --> 00:04:12,556 Speaker 2: of savings, maybe reducing completely eliminating three to six launches 67 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:15,396 Speaker 2: of like the NASAs Space launch System just to get 68 00:04:15,396 --> 00:04:19,476 Speaker 2: the materials over there. Because anything that you have on 69 00:04:19,516 --> 00:04:23,156 Speaker 2: the surface of Mars you have to burn field to 70 00:04:23,156 --> 00:04:26,516 Speaker 2: get it into Earth orbit. You have to burn field 71 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:29,036 Speaker 2: to get it to Mars. You have to burn field 72 00:04:29,076 --> 00:04:31,476 Speaker 2: to get all the stuff that's needed to actually land 73 00:04:31,476 --> 00:04:32,956 Speaker 2: it on the surface of Mars. 74 00:04:33,236 --> 00:04:35,876 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's intuitive that it's hard to take a 75 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:38,036 Speaker 1: bunch of rocket fuel to Mars. I feel like that 76 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:41,996 Speaker 1: to la birth that is straightforward. And to be clear, 77 00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:45,476 Speaker 1: Maxia is a sort of proof of concept, right. It's small, 78 00:04:45,596 --> 00:04:48,036 Speaker 1: it's not like industrial scale, but is the notion that 79 00:04:48,556 --> 00:04:50,916 Speaker 1: you could build a really big one using the same 80 00:04:51,596 --> 00:04:53,836 Speaker 1: principles if you need it to or when the time 81 00:04:53,916 --> 00:04:55,116 Speaker 1: comes exactly. 82 00:04:55,196 --> 00:04:57,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the purpose of it. I mean the 83 00:04:58,036 --> 00:05:02,636 Speaker 2: Maxis comes from the idea of in situ resource utilization 84 00:05:03,316 --> 00:05:06,596 Speaker 2: and more simply, it's living off the land on other 85 00:05:06,636 --> 00:05:08,036 Speaker 2: planetary bodies. 86 00:05:07,756 --> 00:05:10,476 Speaker 1: And living off the land is kind of your big idea, right, 87 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:14,316 Speaker 1: I feel like that's the big idea of your company. Yeah, 88 00:05:14,556 --> 00:05:16,916 Speaker 1: understand it. Of your work is let's figure out how 89 00:05:16,956 --> 00:05:18,436 Speaker 1: to live off the land on the moon. 90 00:05:18,396 --> 00:05:21,836 Speaker 2: On Mars exactly. Yeah, that's the underlying theme everywhere, and 91 00:05:22,556 --> 00:05:25,916 Speaker 2: we're just laying down the bricks to build the road 92 00:05:25,996 --> 00:05:28,876 Speaker 2: to make that kind of part of a sustainable future 93 00:05:28,916 --> 00:05:29,436 Speaker 2: in space. 94 00:05:30,356 --> 00:05:34,436 Speaker 1: So tell me about when Moxie first got to Mars. 95 00:05:34,596 --> 00:05:36,316 Speaker 1: You know, so you're working on this thing for years. 96 00:05:37,116 --> 00:05:40,516 Speaker 1: It actually goes on a rocket ship, it goes to Mars, 97 00:05:40,556 --> 00:05:43,556 Speaker 1: it lands on Mars. Is there some moment when you're 98 00:05:43,596 --> 00:05:46,556 Speaker 1: like whatever, somebody's at the computer that's like, okay, let's 99 00:05:46,596 --> 00:05:47,956 Speaker 1: turn it on and see if it works. 100 00:05:48,836 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 2: So, I mean the first the first exciting part was, 101 00:05:51,716 --> 00:05:54,156 Speaker 2: you know, did it land right? Like obviously, going to 102 00:05:54,236 --> 00:05:57,476 Speaker 2: Mars that's pretty scary. Lots of things can go wrong. 103 00:05:57,596 --> 00:05:59,716 Speaker 2: So it landed great. And then we go into this 104 00:05:59,796 --> 00:06:02,996 Speaker 2: initial phase where we're checking out the systems of the vehicle. 105 00:06:03,556 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 2: So it goes through the list and our checkout was 106 00:06:07,396 --> 00:06:10,316 Speaker 2: you know, one item in that list, and Maxie. 107 00:06:10,076 --> 00:06:12,476 Speaker 1: Is just like a little like toaster of insized box 108 00:06:12,636 --> 00:06:15,356 Speaker 1: inside the rover somewhere correct whatever, the belly of the 109 00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:16,356 Speaker 1: rover something just. 110 00:06:16,636 --> 00:06:18,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, basically just sit in the belly of the rover. 111 00:06:18,796 --> 00:06:21,156 Speaker 2: It has a little filtered to the outside of the rover, 112 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:23,516 Speaker 2: and so the rover like turns on, it goes through 113 00:06:23,516 --> 00:06:28,876 Speaker 2: its list, and then the satellites are orbiting Mars. There's 114 00:06:28,996 --> 00:06:33,276 Speaker 2: like five different satellites and when one gets overhead then 115 00:06:33,276 --> 00:06:35,556 Speaker 2: it can send some data back. And so generally you 116 00:06:35,596 --> 00:06:37,836 Speaker 2: see a command and you don't get information back on 117 00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:40,476 Speaker 2: if it worked until the next day. So in the 118 00:06:40,516 --> 00:06:43,716 Speaker 2: next day, the real exciting moment is not not when 119 00:06:43,756 --> 00:06:46,156 Speaker 2: it actually happened, but when you actually downlink the data 120 00:06:46,636 --> 00:06:49,396 Speaker 2: and you open up the file and you see what's there. 121 00:06:49,836 --> 00:06:52,396 Speaker 2: And so that very first checkout, you know, we open 122 00:06:52,476 --> 00:06:54,876 Speaker 2: up the file, we see what's there, we saw it 123 00:06:54,876 --> 00:06:56,676 Speaker 2: turned on. That was kind of the. 124 00:06:56,716 --> 00:07:01,796 Speaker 1: Okay, that's that's non trivial, it's step one, so okay. 125 00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:04,716 Speaker 2: Then then the next checkout was basically to turn it 126 00:07:04,756 --> 00:07:07,956 Speaker 2: on and run the pump, which was also kind of 127 00:07:07,956 --> 00:07:10,796 Speaker 2: another incremental step. But then the very exciting moment, of course, 128 00:07:10,836 --> 00:07:13,596 Speaker 2: as you can imagine, is kind of the third time 129 00:07:13,636 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 2: we actually sent commands to the rover is when we 130 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:21,676 Speaker 2: were going to heat up the cells. So the chemistry 131 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:26,996 Speaker 2: happens at eight hundred degrees celsius. Very hot, because it's 132 00:07:26,996 --> 00:07:30,556 Speaker 2: really hot, yeah, very hot, Like I said, like a toaster, 133 00:07:31,396 --> 00:07:31,756 Speaker 2: like a. 134 00:07:31,716 --> 00:07:34,236 Speaker 1: Really hot toaster, right, very hot. 135 00:07:34,196 --> 00:07:36,956 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, so hot that normal 136 00:07:37,076 --> 00:07:39,476 Speaker 2: metals and stuff. You got to use special metals so 137 00:07:39,716 --> 00:07:42,756 Speaker 2: things don't melt in the grade. So it heats up. 138 00:07:42,996 --> 00:07:46,476 Speaker 2: The scroll pub starts pumping, the gas goes in and 139 00:07:46,516 --> 00:07:50,396 Speaker 2: then it's this chemical reaction happens on these ceramic cells 140 00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:54,476 Speaker 2: that allow the and you apply a voltage across it, 141 00:07:54,876 --> 00:07:58,636 Speaker 2: and then the voltage pulls strips oxygen ions off of 142 00:07:58,676 --> 00:08:02,596 Speaker 2: the cells and actually bounces it through this kind of 143 00:08:02,596 --> 00:08:06,276 Speaker 2: ceramic material and then it joins up with our oxygen 144 00:08:06,316 --> 00:08:08,996 Speaker 2: on the other side. And then you get the data 145 00:08:09,196 --> 00:08:11,396 Speaker 2: of the current flow, which tells you how much oxygen 146 00:08:11,476 --> 00:08:11,956 Speaker 2: was produced. 147 00:08:12,036 --> 00:08:14,276 Speaker 1: So, so is there a day. Is there a day 148 00:08:14,316 --> 00:08:16,476 Speaker 1: when you come in and turn on your computer and 149 00:08:16,716 --> 00:08:19,716 Speaker 1: see if moxie actually produced oxygen? Yeah? 150 00:08:19,716 --> 00:08:22,316 Speaker 2: So we knew and downlink was going to happen. Everyone 151 00:08:22,436 --> 00:08:24,876 Speaker 2: was on zoom. This was in the middle of the pandemic, 152 00:08:24,956 --> 00:08:27,836 Speaker 2: so everyone's remote and we pull up the data. You 153 00:08:27,876 --> 00:08:29,916 Speaker 2: know this It took many years to happen. So one 154 00:08:29,956 --> 00:08:33,876 Speaker 2: of the students that was actually an intern under me 155 00:08:33,996 --> 00:08:37,076 Speaker 2: that I kind of mentored on Moxie. Her name's Maya. 156 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:39,796 Speaker 2: She was the one kind of unzipping the data. Fen 157 00:08:39,876 --> 00:08:41,996 Speaker 2: she pulls up the plots, We get the data and 158 00:08:42,076 --> 00:08:44,356 Speaker 2: then we see the little line that goes across of 159 00:08:44,516 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 2: you know, oxygen production, and then we knew he did it, 160 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:50,756 Speaker 2: and that was it was a big moment. I think 161 00:08:50,796 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 2: that was, oh, you know, like five and a half years, 162 00:08:55,116 --> 00:08:58,276 Speaker 2: you know, five years into my experience being on the program. 163 00:08:58,356 --> 00:09:01,636 Speaker 2: So it was you know, you've been waiting a long 164 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:03,316 Speaker 2: time for something you think it's hard to wait for, 165 00:09:03,396 --> 00:09:06,956 Speaker 2: you know, as a kid waiting for Christmas, Like, uh, 166 00:09:07,236 --> 00:09:10,356 Speaker 2: is at least that exciting, I would hope. 167 00:09:10,396 --> 00:09:13,956 Speaker 1: So I would hope it's more exciting because like it 168 00:09:14,036 --> 00:09:16,116 Speaker 1: might not work, right, Lots of things go to Mars 169 00:09:16,156 --> 00:09:18,196 Speaker 1: and don't work. Like that's not a it's not a 170 00:09:18,196 --> 00:09:21,236 Speaker 1: crazy outcome for a thing do not work. So Moxie worked. 171 00:09:21,676 --> 00:09:24,796 Speaker 1: By the way, what does Moxie stand for? 172 00:09:25,876 --> 00:09:30,356 Speaker 2: In the great tradition of aerospace, it's a acronym with 173 00:09:30,436 --> 00:09:36,476 Speaker 2: an acronym in it, So Moxie stands for Mars oxygen ISRU. 174 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:41,316 Speaker 2: Experiment ISRU stands for institu Resource Utilization. 175 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:43,676 Speaker 1: I want it to be I wanted to be like 176 00:09:43,756 --> 00:09:47,316 Speaker 1: seven acronyms deep. I want it to be an acronym 177 00:09:47,316 --> 00:09:49,556 Speaker 1: with it. I wanted to be a Russian doll of acronyms. 178 00:09:50,076 --> 00:09:52,276 Speaker 1: I did notice when I was prepairing for this interview, 179 00:09:52,316 --> 00:09:55,276 Speaker 1: like all of the different missions and all of your 180 00:09:55,316 --> 00:09:57,956 Speaker 1: different vehicles, they work like everything is an acronym, and 181 00:09:57,996 --> 00:10:00,236 Speaker 1: the first time like, oh, Moxie, that's clever, and then 182 00:10:00,276 --> 00:10:02,396 Speaker 1: by the seventh acronym you're like, I don't even want 183 00:10:02,396 --> 00:10:07,236 Speaker 1: to know. So okay, So you built Moxie. Somewhere along 184 00:10:07,276 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 1: the way between when you started work looking on it 185 00:10:09,836 --> 00:10:12,076 Speaker 1: and when you found out that it worked, you started 186 00:10:12,076 --> 00:10:16,396 Speaker 1: a company. So just stepping back, then, what is your 187 00:10:16,956 --> 00:10:20,476 Speaker 1: your dream really for your work and for lunar outposts, Like, 188 00:10:20,516 --> 00:10:22,196 Speaker 1: what's your big idea? 189 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:29,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the the big idea is to and 190 00:10:30,436 --> 00:10:37,596 Speaker 2: is to really utilize the Moon as Earth's next continent, right, Like, 191 00:10:38,036 --> 00:10:41,316 Speaker 2: you have the Moon up there, it's not that far away, 192 00:10:42,276 --> 00:10:47,316 Speaker 2: and it's full of resources that could be used for 193 00:10:47,436 --> 00:10:52,556 Speaker 2: the electrification of vehicles on Earth that could be used 194 00:10:52,556 --> 00:10:56,476 Speaker 2: to send us out deeper into space, and the you know, 195 00:10:56,516 --> 00:10:59,556 Speaker 2: the environmental cost of utilizing these resources on the Moon 196 00:10:59,676 --> 00:11:04,116 Speaker 2: is almost non existent. Right. You can basically offshore a 197 00:11:04,116 --> 00:11:07,436 Speaker 2: lot of these challenges that are done with development on 198 00:11:07,516 --> 00:11:12,876 Speaker 2: Earth onto the Moon in a much kind of safer environment. 199 00:11:13,476 --> 00:11:15,996 Speaker 2: And so that's that's kind of the broad vision, right, 200 00:11:16,116 --> 00:11:19,476 Speaker 2: is to really utilize the Moon to benefit everyone here 201 00:11:19,716 --> 00:11:20,436 Speaker 2: back on Earth. 202 00:11:21,436 --> 00:11:24,636 Speaker 1: Clearly, at this moment, it's very very very very expensive 203 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 1: to get to the Moon and back, right, Yeah, like 204 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:32,196 Speaker 1: whatever a million dollars a kilogram or something makes it 205 00:11:32,236 --> 00:11:34,196 Speaker 1: hard for minding to make economic sense. I mean, is 206 00:11:34,236 --> 00:11:36,516 Speaker 1: that the big barrier? It just cost so much to 207 00:11:36,516 --> 00:11:37,236 Speaker 1: get there and back. 208 00:11:38,276 --> 00:11:41,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that. And then you know, there's 209 00:11:41,676 --> 00:11:46,436 Speaker 2: certain types of like processing techniques that you need to solve. 210 00:11:46,556 --> 00:11:49,716 Speaker 2: And then for us, it's you know, the reliable robotics, 211 00:11:49,716 --> 00:11:52,556 Speaker 2: and that's what we're focusing on. We see a lot 212 00:11:52,556 --> 00:11:55,596 Speaker 2: of the barriers coming down. When Elon Musk is talking 213 00:11:55,596 --> 00:11:57,996 Speaker 2: about you know, starship, we think that's going to make 214 00:11:58,156 --> 00:12:01,356 Speaker 2: a huge step change in the amount of mass that 215 00:12:01,396 --> 00:12:03,676 Speaker 2: can be brought to and from the Moon, and that's 216 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:06,796 Speaker 2: going to forever change humanity's relationship with the Moon, because 217 00:12:06,836 --> 00:12:09,996 Speaker 2: it it will go from you know, millions of dollars 218 00:12:10,036 --> 00:12:13,316 Speaker 2: per kilogram to get to the Moon to hundreds of 219 00:12:13,316 --> 00:12:16,116 Speaker 2: thousands overnight. And I think in a shorter period of 220 00:12:16,116 --> 00:12:18,436 Speaker 2: time than that you could be looking at ten thousand 221 00:12:18,476 --> 00:12:20,556 Speaker 2: dollars or less per kilogram. 222 00:12:20,676 --> 00:12:24,916 Speaker 1: So you're talking about like one hundred x improvement in efficiency. Like, yeah, 223 00:12:25,236 --> 00:12:28,316 Speaker 1: I thing that costs a dollar net will cost a penny. Yeah, 224 00:12:29,396 --> 00:12:32,276 Speaker 1: what five years? Ten years? 225 00:12:32,556 --> 00:12:34,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it could come as soon as five 226 00:12:34,796 --> 00:12:37,876 Speaker 2: years that I guess those initial starship launches, and then 227 00:12:37,916 --> 00:12:39,476 Speaker 2: within ten years it's going to be there. 228 00:12:39,556 --> 00:12:42,116 Speaker 1: I mean, is that the underlying bet of your company. 229 00:12:42,116 --> 00:12:44,796 Speaker 1: You're sort of riding on that on the back of 230 00:12:44,836 --> 00:12:45,356 Speaker 1: that bet. 231 00:12:46,636 --> 00:12:48,636 Speaker 2: It's coming down the pipe, and I think we're timing 232 00:12:48,676 --> 00:12:52,356 Speaker 2: it right. In the near term, we've found ways to 233 00:12:52,756 --> 00:12:56,796 Speaker 2: basically provide services here and now that are in high demand, 234 00:12:57,596 --> 00:13:00,716 Speaker 2: which is basically just access to explore the lunar surface 235 00:13:00,836 --> 00:13:06,956 Speaker 2: to do interesting commercial experiences as well as help other 236 00:13:07,076 --> 00:13:11,036 Speaker 2: nations kick off their space programs on the lunar surface. 237 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 1: So let's talk about what you're working on now. I 238 00:13:14,476 --> 00:13:17,196 Speaker 1: know you have a few different projects, a few different 239 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:23,476 Speaker 1: acronymst little machines going too the Moon soon, right, Like, 240 00:13:23,516 --> 00:13:26,276 Speaker 1: what's the what's the first one? What do you have 241 00:13:26,316 --> 00:13:27,276 Speaker 1: that's about to go to the Moon? 242 00:13:27,316 --> 00:13:27,636 Speaker 2: What is it? 243 00:13:27,636 --> 00:13:28,396 Speaker 1: And when's it going to go? 244 00:13:28,916 --> 00:13:31,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, So our first one, we've been calling them lunar voyages, 245 00:13:32,316 --> 00:13:35,996 Speaker 2: So Lunar Voyage one is going to be our map rover, 246 00:13:36,556 --> 00:13:42,156 Speaker 2: and this one is going to go basically early twenty 247 00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 2: twenty four. So we're getting ready. We're just kind of 248 00:13:44,796 --> 00:13:47,196 Speaker 2: figuring out when the when the launch is going to 249 00:13:47,276 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 2: be with the rockets, I. 250 00:13:49,396 --> 00:13:52,116 Speaker 1: Feel like in space terms, that's like five minutes from now. 251 00:13:52,236 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, the vehicle is you know, we're we're 252 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:58,836 Speaker 2: packing up the vehicle and getting it down to the 253 00:13:58,916 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 2: Lander provider. So this is yeah, it's it's all the 254 00:14:03,316 --> 00:14:06,396 Speaker 2: hard work's been done on this vehicle. What's unique about 255 00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:09,436 Speaker 2: this this mission a couple of things. Is kind of 256 00:14:09,476 --> 00:14:12,996 Speaker 2: in a race to be the first commercial rover ever 257 00:14:13,076 --> 00:14:16,116 Speaker 2: to the surface of the Moon India Center Rover, you know, 258 00:14:16,196 --> 00:14:19,796 Speaker 2: Russia has of course the United States and China, but 259 00:14:19,836 --> 00:14:24,516 Speaker 2: we would be a commercial company from Golden Colorado sending 260 00:14:24,516 --> 00:14:27,396 Speaker 2: a commercial rover, and so to do that, we've partnered 261 00:14:27,436 --> 00:14:30,596 Speaker 2: with different commercial companies, so We have no Kia that's 262 00:14:30,636 --> 00:14:36,236 Speaker 2: testing LTE technology on the Moon. We have Mi T 263 00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:39,436 Speaker 2: and NASA aimes have some cool cameras that we're sending, 264 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:41,996 Speaker 2: and a little miniature rover that drives on top of 265 00:14:42,036 --> 00:14:46,116 Speaker 2: our rover. We have a company that's put a private 266 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 2: key for a Bitcoin treasure chest on the rover, so 267 00:14:49,276 --> 00:14:51,476 Speaker 2: if you find our rover, you get a treasure chest. 268 00:14:54,836 --> 00:14:58,516 Speaker 2: So I mean it's all business, right. 269 00:15:00,636 --> 00:15:02,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can put a giant billboard on the Moon. 270 00:15:02,836 --> 00:15:04,156 Speaker 1: So when I look at the Moon, I see an 271 00:15:04,156 --> 00:15:05,996 Speaker 1: ad for bitcoin. Don't do it? 272 00:15:06,036 --> 00:15:11,076 Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, the scale of that be outrageous. 273 00:15:12,236 --> 00:15:16,836 Speaker 1: Yes, and not just the scale. So when you're making 274 00:15:16,876 --> 00:15:22,236 Speaker 1: a point about being the first commercial rover, like, why 275 00:15:22,276 --> 00:15:24,236 Speaker 1: does that matter? What does it mean? I mean, are 276 00:15:24,276 --> 00:15:28,036 Speaker 1: there legal implications? Is it just cool? From a business standpoint? 277 00:15:28,116 --> 00:15:32,516 Speaker 2: I think it matters because it emphasizes the shift in 278 00:15:33,396 --> 00:15:36,036 Speaker 2: Earth's relationship with the Moon, where the Earth is just 279 00:15:36,116 --> 00:15:40,436 Speaker 2: not for the big dogs in you know, on the 280 00:15:40,516 --> 00:15:44,596 Speaker 2: national stage, right, the big countries with massively funded programs. 281 00:15:45,196 --> 00:15:47,196 Speaker 2: If commercial company can get to the Moon, that means 282 00:15:47,236 --> 00:15:50,836 Speaker 2: the Moon's for everyone, right, And we also kind of 283 00:15:50,876 --> 00:15:55,916 Speaker 2: remove some of the gatekeepers of access to the Moon. Right, 284 00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:59,596 Speaker 2: So the research group from MIT was able to raise 285 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:03,916 Speaker 2: funding with some of their supporters to put a some 286 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:07,436 Speaker 2: payloads on the Moon, right. I mean that's and without 287 00:16:07,516 --> 00:16:10,716 Speaker 2: having to go through a big long proposal process and 288 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:14,636 Speaker 2: all sorts of other things. That just hoping to try 289 00:16:14,676 --> 00:16:17,116 Speaker 2: to get your experiment to the moon, which is kind 290 00:16:17,116 --> 00:16:20,076 Speaker 2: of the you know, the old way of doing it. 291 00:16:20,476 --> 00:16:23,996 Speaker 2: So but we're definitely like broadening the reach of who 292 00:16:24,076 --> 00:16:27,716 Speaker 2: can go there and do interesting and exciting things and 293 00:16:27,756 --> 00:16:31,596 Speaker 2: really really form a stronger connection with the Moon that 294 00:16:31,796 --> 00:16:33,236 Speaker 2: you know, we see every single night. 295 00:16:36,396 --> 00:16:39,196 Speaker 1: In a minute, how forrest rover is getting to the 296 00:16:39,196 --> 00:16:42,436 Speaker 1: Moon and what could go wrong once it gets there? 297 00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:02,196 Speaker 1: Now back to the show, how's your rover getting to 298 00:17:02,236 --> 00:17:02,556 Speaker 1: the Moon? 299 00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:07,316 Speaker 2: It's being packaged into a lander built by intuitive machines. 300 00:17:08,116 --> 00:17:12,476 Speaker 2: That lander is and going into a SpaceX Falcon nine rocket, 301 00:17:13,836 --> 00:17:17,476 Speaker 2: and then that rocket is going to launch from Kennedy 302 00:17:17,476 --> 00:17:18,436 Speaker 2: Space Center, Florida. 303 00:17:18,956 --> 00:17:22,116 Speaker 1: So even the rocket is private, like the whole it's 304 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:25,076 Speaker 1: sort of end to end a private mission as opposed 305 00:17:25,116 --> 00:17:27,796 Speaker 1: to kind of piggybacking on a government mission. 306 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:31,476 Speaker 2: Correct. Correct, Now, the NASA has made some really smart 307 00:17:31,596 --> 00:17:36,156 Speaker 2: choices that have enabled this to happen, and there is 308 00:17:36,196 --> 00:17:39,276 Speaker 2: definitely NASA money involved in order to make the whole 309 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:42,236 Speaker 2: kind of help build the road to space. So NASA 310 00:17:42,276 --> 00:17:45,796 Speaker 2: started a program called the Commercial Lunar Payloads Services Program 311 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:49,876 Speaker 2: where they're contracting lunar landers to send NASA payloads to 312 00:17:49,916 --> 00:17:53,636 Speaker 2: the Moon, but they're allowing these landers to sell extra 313 00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:59,396 Speaker 2: space to commercial interests in order to reduce NASA's costs 314 00:17:59,396 --> 00:18:01,076 Speaker 2: but also kind of open it up. And so we've 315 00:18:01,116 --> 00:18:03,676 Speaker 2: taken advantage of it. So the Intuitive Machines Lander that 316 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:07,396 Speaker 2: we're going on has a lot of NASA funded payloads 317 00:18:07,436 --> 00:18:09,796 Speaker 2: and a lot of NASA funding, and we're kind of 318 00:18:09,836 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 2: on the ride share side, so we're just hitching a 319 00:18:13,116 --> 00:18:15,116 Speaker 2: ride on another vehicle. 320 00:18:16,356 --> 00:18:21,716 Speaker 1: So, you know, I I'm very pro progress, pro technology, 321 00:18:21,756 --> 00:18:24,716 Speaker 1: pro private enterprise, but there is some part of me, 322 00:18:24,956 --> 00:18:28,636 Speaker 1: some hippyish part of me that's like a little bit 323 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:34,396 Speaker 1: sad about mining the Moon and you know, bitcoin on 324 00:18:34,476 --> 00:18:38,676 Speaker 1: the Moon, Like, I don't know, can you talk me 325 00:18:38,756 --> 00:18:40,516 Speaker 1: out of being sad about that side of it? 326 00:18:41,596 --> 00:18:45,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly. So I think there's enough moon for everyone. 327 00:18:45,956 --> 00:18:49,956 Speaker 2: You know, the visible change will not exist. You know, 328 00:18:49,996 --> 00:18:52,196 Speaker 2: you'll still see the moon, It'll still be there. We're 329 00:18:52,196 --> 00:18:54,036 Speaker 2: not gonna have any impact on the total mass of 330 00:18:54,036 --> 00:18:56,316 Speaker 2: the Moon or how the tides change or anything like that. 331 00:18:56,396 --> 00:19:00,796 Speaker 2: This is very minuscule compared to the size of it. 332 00:19:01,476 --> 00:19:03,916 Speaker 2: And the other thing is like, we're you know, taking 333 00:19:03,956 --> 00:19:07,436 Speaker 2: philosophies I leave no trace and things like that to 334 00:19:07,716 --> 00:19:10,556 Speaker 2: make sure that, you know, we don't leave a mess 335 00:19:10,636 --> 00:19:12,636 Speaker 2: up there, right. We want to do this in a 336 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:16,596 Speaker 2: way where we're not polluting the environment in a way 337 00:19:16,596 --> 00:19:18,596 Speaker 2: that it makes it difficult for other people to go 338 00:19:18,636 --> 00:19:20,596 Speaker 2: to the Moon and utilize it in the future. And 339 00:19:20,636 --> 00:19:23,756 Speaker 2: I think that's another important point to take home. 340 00:19:24,356 --> 00:19:27,756 Speaker 1: Is there some kind of international law? Is there a 341 00:19:27,836 --> 00:19:33,956 Speaker 1: treaty or something that governs behavior of individuals, firms, nations 342 00:19:34,476 --> 00:19:34,996 Speaker 1: on the moon. 343 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:41,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's there's a number of like agreements in place. 344 00:19:41,476 --> 00:19:46,156 Speaker 2: I think the most recent one that NASA is trying 345 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:49,356 Speaker 2: to bring nations into is kind of like the Artemis Accords, 346 00:19:49,396 --> 00:19:53,276 Speaker 2: which kind of lays a groundwork for some you know, 347 00:19:53,396 --> 00:19:57,276 Speaker 2: rules on the surface of the Moon. NASA's actually been trying. 348 00:19:56,956 --> 00:20:00,436 Speaker 1: To Countries can't even agree to rules on Earth, right, 349 00:20:01,076 --> 00:20:04,036 Speaker 1: it seems hard. It seems like a hard problem. I mean, 350 00:20:04,876 --> 00:20:07,636 Speaker 1: I wouldn't imagine for example, China, which has its own 351 00:20:07,876 --> 00:20:13,316 Speaker 1: space wanting to sort of follow the United States lead. Yeah, 352 00:20:13,316 --> 00:20:14,476 Speaker 1: and how is it going? 353 00:20:15,076 --> 00:20:18,796 Speaker 2: Yeah? And there there are countries that are not right 354 00:20:19,196 --> 00:20:24,996 Speaker 2: and there's not a really established, universally accepted authority over 355 00:20:25,036 --> 00:20:29,716 Speaker 2: the moon. So that is one of the most interesting 356 00:20:29,796 --> 00:20:32,636 Speaker 2: things about this endeavor is how will that shake up? 357 00:20:32,676 --> 00:20:36,196 Speaker 2: Because there may be even disagreements of countries if our 358 00:20:36,276 --> 00:20:40,516 Speaker 2: rover even has a right to drive across the moon, right, Yeah, 359 00:20:41,156 --> 00:20:43,276 Speaker 2: but we're going to be there, and we're going to 360 00:20:43,356 --> 00:20:46,796 Speaker 2: drive across the moon, and you know, it's accepted by 361 00:20:46,836 --> 00:20:48,836 Speaker 2: the country where we live, and so there's there's a 362 00:20:48,836 --> 00:20:51,636 Speaker 2: lot of stuff that's going to have to be sorted out. 363 00:20:51,756 --> 00:20:54,796 Speaker 2: But like any frontier, I think that little bit of 364 00:20:54,996 --> 00:21:00,396 Speaker 2: kind of uncertainty creates opportunities for the early movers to 365 00:21:00,476 --> 00:21:01,996 Speaker 2: kind of help shape what that looks like. 366 00:21:02,556 --> 00:21:04,516 Speaker 1: So you built this rover that's going to go to 367 00:21:04,556 --> 00:21:09,116 Speaker 1: the Moon soon. It's called MAP. I guess we got 368 00:21:09,236 --> 00:21:10,996 Speaker 1: to do the acronym. What's MAP stand. 369 00:21:10,756 --> 00:21:14,676 Speaker 2: For Mobile Autonomous Prospecting Platform. 370 00:21:15,396 --> 00:21:21,316 Speaker 1: Okay, what's it look like? What's MAP look like? 371 00:21:22,116 --> 00:21:24,836 Speaker 2: It's a four wheeled rover. You know, you often see 372 00:21:24,876 --> 00:21:27,116 Speaker 2: a lot with like six wheels. Map has four wheels. 373 00:21:27,636 --> 00:21:30,476 Speaker 1: How big is it? How big is it? 374 00:21:30,476 --> 00:21:33,716 Speaker 2: It's the size of some people say like a like 375 00:21:33,756 --> 00:21:38,396 Speaker 2: a medium sized dog. So it's maybe like a you know, 376 00:21:38,676 --> 00:21:42,556 Speaker 2: two feet by two feet square. Definitely not huge. So 377 00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:46,196 Speaker 2: it has it has two cameras or eyes right on 378 00:21:46,276 --> 00:21:48,516 Speaker 2: top of its front, and then it has another camera 379 00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:51,516 Speaker 2: that kind of looks like a little nose. And now 380 00:21:51,596 --> 00:21:54,956 Speaker 2: we've added the MIT camera payload below that, so you 381 00:21:54,956 --> 00:21:57,596 Speaker 2: can even say, maybe that looks like a mouth, but yeah, 382 00:21:57,676 --> 00:21:59,996 Speaker 2: it actually sees like a like a human as well. 383 00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:03,116 Speaker 2: So the two cameras on the front, I'll give it 384 00:22:03,236 --> 00:22:06,476 Speaker 2: stereoscopic vision, so it can kind of see in three 385 00:22:06,596 --> 00:22:09,996 Speaker 2: D as it drives across the surface. So for this 386 00:22:10,076 --> 00:22:13,676 Speaker 2: first mission, as I mentioned, one of our flagship customers 387 00:22:13,716 --> 00:22:17,156 Speaker 2: is Nokia, and we're testing their antenna system. And so 388 00:22:17,236 --> 00:22:20,276 Speaker 2: the rover has these big antennas in the in the 389 00:22:20,316 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 2: back that will actually deploy on the surface, so there's 390 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:25,836 Speaker 2: a trust structure, and then we'll fire some pins and 391 00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:28,316 Speaker 2: they'll flip up in the air. And that's so that 392 00:22:28,356 --> 00:22:30,796 Speaker 2: their antennas are nice and high off the ground so 393 00:22:30,836 --> 00:22:33,316 Speaker 2: we can maximize the range of the rover. 394 00:22:34,116 --> 00:22:37,476 Speaker 1: And the idea is to have a basically wireless communications 395 00:22:37,476 --> 00:22:39,116 Speaker 1: and network on the moon. That's kind of what you're 396 00:22:39,156 --> 00:22:39,676 Speaker 1: testing with that. 397 00:22:40,036 --> 00:22:40,276 Speaker 2: Yep. 398 00:22:40,556 --> 00:22:42,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you drive it? How do you tell 399 00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:43,716 Speaker 1: the rover where to go? 400 00:22:43,956 --> 00:22:47,236 Speaker 2: It's kind of like a like a turn based strategy game. 401 00:22:47,316 --> 00:22:48,876 Speaker 2: That's kind of like the speed of it. You know, 402 00:22:48,956 --> 00:22:51,996 Speaker 2: we'll send a command, we'll get some information back. We'll 403 00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:56,316 Speaker 2: do that again. So example would be like a waypoint command. 404 00:22:56,356 --> 00:22:59,356 Speaker 2: So we'd say, you know, drive two meters forward one 405 00:22:59,436 --> 00:23:02,156 Speaker 2: meter to the left, and then the rover would drive, 406 00:23:02,316 --> 00:23:05,836 Speaker 2: uh huh, take a picture, send it back. We'll tell 407 00:23:05,876 --> 00:23:07,836 Speaker 2: them if you did a good job or not, and 408 00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:09,676 Speaker 2: then we'll repeat the problem us again. 409 00:23:10,636 --> 00:23:14,036 Speaker 1: So so you built this thing. It's a big deal. 410 00:23:14,196 --> 00:23:16,796 Speaker 1: It's going to go to the Moon. It's hard to 411 00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:19,116 Speaker 1: build a thing that can work on the moon. I'm sure, 412 00:23:22,116 --> 00:23:24,876 Speaker 1: what what are you worried about? What might not work? 413 00:23:26,356 --> 00:23:30,636 Speaker 2: Let's see, there's a lot of uncertainty, just like just 414 00:23:30,676 --> 00:23:34,476 Speaker 2: like going to Mars. I think everyone's always nervous about 415 00:23:34,876 --> 00:23:38,796 Speaker 2: landing and getting off safely. We saw that, you know, 416 00:23:38,876 --> 00:23:41,676 Speaker 2: Russia had a lander that crashed this year. There's a 417 00:23:41,756 --> 00:23:44,356 Speaker 2: Japanese startup that had a lander that crashed this year, 418 00:23:44,996 --> 00:23:47,756 Speaker 2: and then you had the Indian Lander that landed safely. 419 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:50,756 Speaker 2: So for this year, you know, two out of three 420 00:23:51,596 --> 00:23:54,676 Speaker 2: didn't make it. So that's always a concern. Even though 421 00:23:54,676 --> 00:23:57,316 Speaker 2: I have lots and lots of confidence in our partners, 422 00:23:57,556 --> 00:24:02,516 Speaker 2: they have developed an excellent system, really high reliability, it 423 00:24:02,556 --> 00:24:04,636 Speaker 2: always comes to the back of your mind. And then 424 00:24:05,476 --> 00:24:09,076 Speaker 2: after that, I mean, we're going to turn on in transit, 425 00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:10,556 Speaker 2: so we're already going to be on, so we're not 426 00:24:10,556 --> 00:24:12,996 Speaker 2: gonna have to worry about, oh, will it even turn on? 427 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:18,076 Speaker 2: And then the next thing is, you know, how what 428 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:20,396 Speaker 2: does the surface look like at this area? Like are 429 00:24:20,396 --> 00:24:23,596 Speaker 2: we are we able to traverse it? Are we in 430 00:24:23,636 --> 00:24:25,996 Speaker 2: like a big boulder field? Where are we going to land? 431 00:24:26,036 --> 00:24:28,676 Speaker 2: I think that's the other uncertainty because no one has 432 00:24:28,716 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 2: ever been to this part of the moon and the 433 00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:35,756 Speaker 2: highest Wow, yeah, yeah, this is We're going to Shackleton 434 00:24:35,756 --> 00:24:38,916 Speaker 2: Connecting Ridge, which is within a degree of the lunar 435 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:43,596 Speaker 2: South Pole. So for example, the next closest was sixty 436 00:24:43,716 --> 00:24:46,676 Speaker 2: nine degrees south, which is what the Indian Lander went, 437 00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:48,556 Speaker 2: and so no one's been there, no one knows what 438 00:24:48,596 --> 00:24:52,396 Speaker 2: it looks like. The best satellite images are like three 439 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:55,596 Speaker 2: to ten meters per pixel, right, so you that's just 440 00:24:55,636 --> 00:24:57,436 Speaker 2: one pixel covering a large area. 441 00:24:57,836 --> 00:25:01,636 Speaker 1: Giant boulders. You could land and just be surrounded by 442 00:25:01,676 --> 00:25:03,836 Speaker 1: giant boulders and you'd be. 443 00:25:03,756 --> 00:25:08,196 Speaker 2: Screwed, right, Yeah, boulders or you know who knows? Quicksand aliens? 444 00:25:08,596 --> 00:25:10,196 Speaker 2: We think we you have a really good idea of 445 00:25:10,236 --> 00:25:11,996 Speaker 2: what to find there, but you never. 446 00:25:11,876 --> 00:25:14,796 Speaker 1: Know, right, Aliens would be cool. I'd be sorry your 447 00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:19,396 Speaker 1: rover didn't work, but it'd be a worthwhile trade of Okay, 448 00:25:19,436 --> 00:25:21,396 Speaker 1: So these are all things that could go wrong that 449 00:25:21,396 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 1: wouldn't be your fault. Right If the lander crashes, they 450 00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:27,636 Speaker 1: didn't build the lander. If there's boulders everywhere, who knew 451 00:25:27,636 --> 00:25:30,436 Speaker 1: they were boulders? What about if you land and it's 452 00:25:30,556 --> 00:25:33,076 Speaker 1: nice and smooth and everybody else did their job. Now 453 00:25:33,076 --> 00:25:35,876 Speaker 1: it's go, time for map, Go time for your rover. 454 00:25:36,276 --> 00:25:37,916 Speaker 1: What are some of the things that might go wrong. 455 00:25:38,756 --> 00:25:41,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, One of the ones that is very concerning is 456 00:25:42,156 --> 00:25:47,196 Speaker 2: the dust. So basically, the Moon's been bombarded by micrometeoroids 457 00:25:47,316 --> 00:25:52,076 Speaker 2: for four billion years or something around that time, and 458 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:56,116 Speaker 2: so the surface has been ground up continuously by these 459 00:25:56,116 --> 00:25:59,676 Speaker 2: things flying in from space. Hitting the ground, turning into glass, 460 00:26:00,036 --> 00:26:03,836 Speaker 2: shattering and then getting pulverized over and over. But there's 461 00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:06,436 Speaker 2: no weathering effects like wind or water that kind of 462 00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:09,996 Speaker 2: round out these particles. So you're talking about very sharp 463 00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:14,076 Speaker 2: particles like I don't know if asbestos is a good example, 464 00:26:14,116 --> 00:26:17,116 Speaker 2: but it's it's nasty, nasty stuff that could grind on 465 00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:19,596 Speaker 2: your gears and systems, and so we have to try 466 00:26:19,596 --> 00:26:22,596 Speaker 2: to find ways to keep that off. There could be 467 00:26:22,876 --> 00:26:25,676 Speaker 2: dust that's levitated that could get on the camera lenses 468 00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:29,436 Speaker 2: and make it harder to see. The other thing is 469 00:26:29,476 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 2: you're on the moon, so there's a decent amount of radiation. 470 00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:36,156 Speaker 2: Radiation could cause faults and electronic components, so we try 471 00:26:36,196 --> 00:26:38,676 Speaker 2: to mitigate that by having you know, back up electronic 472 00:26:38,756 --> 00:26:42,436 Speaker 2: systems and failovers and things like that. But there's you know, 473 00:26:42,476 --> 00:26:44,756 Speaker 2: certain levels that you can't control. Right Let's say an 474 00:26:44,756 --> 00:26:47,676 Speaker 2: ion just flies in from deep space and like you know, 475 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:50,836 Speaker 2: blows a hole through a transistor. There's not much you 476 00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:53,796 Speaker 2: can do. So then you have that. You have obviously 477 00:26:53,796 --> 00:26:56,116 Speaker 2: that you know, the sun is at a very low angle, 478 00:26:56,196 --> 00:26:58,436 Speaker 2: there's very long shadows, and when you go into a 479 00:26:58,436 --> 00:27:02,276 Speaker 2: shadow you get extremely cold. So those are kind of 480 00:27:02,116 --> 00:27:06,836 Speaker 2: the big environmental concerns. It's a it's not a comfortable 481 00:27:06,876 --> 00:27:07,836 Speaker 2: place to be. 482 00:27:09,316 --> 00:27:13,556 Speaker 1: So if you step back from the day to day, 483 00:27:13,796 --> 00:27:15,836 Speaker 1: from the rover that's about to go to the Moon 484 00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:19,276 Speaker 1: and think about the future, you tell me what the 485 00:27:19,356 --> 00:27:21,236 Speaker 1: right amount of time is, I don't know, five years, 486 00:27:21,596 --> 00:27:24,116 Speaker 1: ten years, Like, how do you think about the future 487 00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:25,516 Speaker 1: on the moon. What's the moon going to be like 488 00:27:25,596 --> 00:27:26,716 Speaker 1: in say ten years? 489 00:27:26,876 --> 00:27:28,556 Speaker 2: I think ten years is going to be really exciting. 490 00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:30,596 Speaker 2: I mean in ten years, what you're going to have 491 00:27:30,756 --> 00:27:33,716 Speaker 2: is NASA astronauts are going to return to the Moon, 492 00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:37,316 Speaker 2: you know, within five years less than that, and so 493 00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:39,716 Speaker 2: we'll have people actively on the surface of the Moon. 494 00:27:40,476 --> 00:27:44,236 Speaker 2: Hopefully they'll be riding around in a you know, lunar 495 00:27:44,236 --> 00:27:47,556 Speaker 2: outpost moon buggy. So we've were waiting here back from 496 00:27:47,636 --> 00:27:51,556 Speaker 2: NASA on a proposal. We have a great team with 497 00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:56,036 Speaker 2: Lockey Martin MDA GM Goodyear to build this moon buggy 498 00:27:56,036 --> 00:27:58,316 Speaker 2: for them. So hopefully they're driving around these moon buggies. 499 00:27:58,596 --> 00:28:01,916 Speaker 2: Hopefully they're you know, you have the first human permanent 500 00:28:01,996 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 2: human habitats within ten years, and hopefully there's some commercialization 501 00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:09,116 Speaker 2: of those habitats. 502 00:28:08,636 --> 00:28:13,236 Speaker 1: That one seems wildly ambitious, Like, given how long it's 503 00:28:13,276 --> 00:28:15,156 Speaker 1: taken just to get people there, do you really think 504 00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 1: there might be permanent human habitats on the Moon in 505 00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:22,516 Speaker 1: ten years? I feel like in space, you know, I'll 506 00:28:22,516 --> 00:28:23,116 Speaker 1: take the over. 507 00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:31,596 Speaker 2: I think that's currently there's architectures that are being pursued 508 00:28:31,996 --> 00:28:36,156 Speaker 2: by multiple international space agencies, whether it's you know, Russia, China, 509 00:28:36,276 --> 00:28:40,836 Speaker 2: United States, that will put human habitats on the Moon 510 00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:41,756 Speaker 2: within ten years. 511 00:28:41,756 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 1: The fact that you say there's multiple countries makes me 512 00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:46,156 Speaker 1: think it's more likely. Right, Like, in the same way 513 00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:50,116 Speaker 1: there was a space race in the sixties basically for 514 00:28:50,196 --> 00:28:53,636 Speaker 1: like not entirely happy reasons, right, the US was kind 515 00:28:53,636 --> 00:28:56,516 Speaker 1: of goaded into doing things maybe more quickly than it 516 00:28:56,556 --> 00:28:59,156 Speaker 1: would have done. Like that seems like a plausible mechanism, 517 00:28:59,236 --> 00:29:04,436 Speaker 1: a kind of international competition for slightly tense reasons. Like 518 00:29:04,676 --> 00:29:06,276 Speaker 1: when you put it that way, it's like, Okay, maybe 519 00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:09,236 Speaker 1: things will go faster than they usually do. Yeah, I mean, 520 00:29:09,556 --> 00:29:12,476 Speaker 1: there's always things that can happen, But I think that 521 00:29:12,476 --> 00:29:14,436 Speaker 1: that there is going to be some competition. I think 522 00:29:14,476 --> 00:29:18,596 Speaker 1: that that China is very motivated and they've been very 523 00:29:18,596 --> 00:29:25,156 Speaker 1: successful in executing their lunar campaigns, and look they've been 524 00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:29,116 Speaker 1: to the Moon like three times, and the United States 525 00:29:29,156 --> 00:29:32,636 Speaker 1: has yet to return to the Moon since they first 526 00:29:32,676 --> 00:29:35,996 Speaker 1: left in Apollo. So we're the United States is not 527 00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:39,836 Speaker 1: leading at this point on lunar surface explorations. So we 528 00:29:39,916 --> 00:29:42,116 Speaker 1: have a lot of catching up to do, and we're 529 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:44,796 Speaker 1: putting a lot of resources to it. But I think that. 530 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:50,076 Speaker 2: Hopefully, you know, we realize that the competition's there, and 531 00:29:50,236 --> 00:29:53,636 Speaker 2: we rise to meet it because it's happening. Other people 532 00:29:53,636 --> 00:29:56,396 Speaker 2: are going. They're not, you know, not waiting for the 533 00:29:56,516 --> 00:29:57,756 Speaker 2: United States anymore. 534 00:30:01,596 --> 00:30:03,676 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a minute with the Lightning Round. 535 00:30:16,276 --> 00:30:18,356 Speaker 3: That's the end of the ads. Now we're going back 536 00:30:18,396 --> 00:30:18,796 Speaker 3: to the show. 537 00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:22,636 Speaker 1: We're gonna finish with the Lightning Round. Just a bunch 538 00:30:22,636 --> 00:30:25,276 Speaker 1: of questions slightly more random than the rest of the interview. 539 00:30:27,236 --> 00:30:28,276 Speaker 1: Do you want to go to space? 540 00:30:28,596 --> 00:30:28,916 Speaker 2: Yes? 541 00:30:30,596 --> 00:30:31,756 Speaker 1: Do you think you'll go to space? 542 00:30:32,316 --> 00:30:32,356 Speaker 2: No? 543 00:30:36,316 --> 00:30:36,676 Speaker 1: Why not? 544 00:30:37,716 --> 00:30:39,116 Speaker 2: I'm too busy making robots. 545 00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:44,756 Speaker 1: Rocketman or Major Tom, Major Tom, Star Wars or Star Trek, 546 00:30:46,476 --> 00:30:50,396 Speaker 1: Star Trek. Favorite scene in The Martian I don't know. 547 00:30:50,436 --> 00:30:53,916 Speaker 2: I liked when he was grown the potatoes. That was 548 00:30:53,916 --> 00:30:54,476 Speaker 2: pretty cool. 549 00:30:54,676 --> 00:30:59,116 Speaker 1: Also loved loved the potatoes. So it's like the most 550 00:31:00,516 --> 00:31:03,156 Speaker 1: nerdy basic part. Right. That was what made me so 551 00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:07,516 Speaker 1: happy about that book and movie was not the like 552 00:31:07,636 --> 00:31:09,796 Speaker 1: flying on the chair in space part, but kind of 553 00:31:09,796 --> 00:31:12,036 Speaker 1: the opposite. The potatoes are the opposite. 554 00:31:11,676 --> 00:31:15,356 Speaker 2: Of that lighting the gas making it rain inside. That's cool. 555 00:31:17,476 --> 00:31:19,996 Speaker 1: What's the hardest thing about killing your own meat? 556 00:31:21,636 --> 00:31:24,996 Speaker 2: If it's an animal that you grew, you know, sometimes 557 00:31:25,516 --> 00:31:27,796 Speaker 2: you're a little sad, but you're kind of thankful for 558 00:31:27,876 --> 00:31:29,236 Speaker 2: the time that you got to spend with it. 559 00:31:30,476 --> 00:31:31,876 Speaker 1: Are you thinking of chickens? 560 00:31:32,516 --> 00:31:35,716 Speaker 2: Think about turkeys. I have turkeys. I absolutely love turkeys. 561 00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:39,836 Speaker 2: They're fantastic animals. They're so nice. 562 00:31:40,036 --> 00:31:41,636 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't have to eat them, you could. 563 00:31:42,636 --> 00:31:44,196 Speaker 1: You're happier to kill the chickens. 564 00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:47,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, chickens aren't that nice. So it's getting that time 565 00:31:47,716 --> 00:31:50,316 Speaker 2: for the for the turkeys, But it also gives them 566 00:31:50,556 --> 00:31:52,076 Speaker 2: a reason to be so. 567 00:31:52,556 --> 00:31:54,956 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not their reason to be, it's your 568 00:31:55,036 --> 00:31:56,196 Speaker 1: reason for them to be. 569 00:31:56,556 --> 00:31:57,036 Speaker 2: Exactly. 570 00:31:57,236 --> 00:32:01,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, if everything goes well, what problem will you be 571 00:32:01,236 --> 00:32:03,676 Speaker 1: trying to solve in five years or so? 572 00:32:04,876 --> 00:32:08,476 Speaker 2: In five years, I think the big problem is going 573 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:12,796 Speaker 2: to be kind of processing of lunar regolith to sort 574 00:32:12,876 --> 00:32:16,516 Speaker 2: it out into its kind of constituent components. Hopefully in 575 00:32:16,556 --> 00:32:17,716 Speaker 2: five years we've got used. 576 00:32:17,796 --> 00:32:22,276 Speaker 1: You used a word that I don't know what's that word. 577 00:32:22,636 --> 00:32:25,476 Speaker 2: It's a it's a fancy term for lunar dirt or 578 00:32:25,596 --> 00:32:26,276 Speaker 2: lunar soil. 579 00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:31,076 Speaker 1: So if things go well, you'll you'll be mining in 580 00:32:31,156 --> 00:32:33,356 Speaker 1: some fashion the moon and trying to figure out how 581 00:32:33,396 --> 00:32:38,196 Speaker 1: to actually make that work exactly. Well, thanks for your time, 582 00:32:38,396 --> 00:32:39,956 Speaker 1: it was a delight to talk to you, and good 583 00:32:40,036 --> 00:32:40,836 Speaker 1: luck get into the moon. 584 00:32:41,036 --> 00:32:42,356 Speaker 2: Thank you appreciate it. 585 00:32:47,276 --> 00:32:50,476 Speaker 1: Forrest Mayan is the co founder and chief strategy officer 586 00:32:50,596 --> 00:32:54,636 Speaker 1: at Lunar Outpost. Today's show was produced by Edith Russolo 587 00:32:54,876 --> 00:32:58,476 Speaker 1: and edited by Karen Chakerji. You can email us at 588 00:32:58,636 --> 00:33:01,356 Speaker 1: problem at pushkin dot fm. 589 00:33:01,836 --> 00:33:09,476 Speaker 3: I'm Jacob Goldstein, H