Speaker 1: You're listening to Comedy Central. Wow, coming to you from
Speaker 1: the heart of Times where in New York City, the
Speaker 1: only city in America. It's The Daily Show. Here's edition tonight,
Speaker 1: India joins us on the show to have a special
Speaker 1: conversation about Spotify and Joe Rogan. Is The Daily Show
Speaker 1: with Trevor Noah. Hey, what's going on? Everybody? Welcome to
Speaker 1: The Daily Show. I'm Trevor Noah. Tonight, we had an
Speaker 1: episode planned around the super Bowl and Ukraine and just
Speaker 1: catching up on all of the news. But I had
Speaker 1: truly one of my favorite conversations with a human being
Speaker 1: that I ever thought I could have, and that's with
Speaker 1: our guest today, Multi Grammy Award winning artist India Ari.
Speaker 1: She was here to talk about Joe Rogan and everything
Speaker 1: that's going on with Spotify, and to be honest with you,
Speaker 1: I think the conversation turned into something way more beautiful
Speaker 1: and and I appreciate it her sharing it with me,
Speaker 1: and so I decided I had to share it with you,
Speaker 1: and I really think that you will appreciate it. So
Speaker 1: just for today here it is a special episode. That
Speaker 1: is one conversation that I think touches on almost everything
Speaker 1: ms in d are Welcome to the Daily Show. Thank
Speaker 1: you for pleasure to be here. Um, it's it's a
Speaker 1: pleasure for me. I've been a fan of yours. I
Speaker 1: mean from from the moment you came out. I loved
Speaker 1: your music. UM, loving your hair. By the way, I
Speaker 1: know you're not the heir, but I I cannot not
Speaker 1: comment on it. I know it's been a journey to
Speaker 1: have more hair than normal. Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we both listen on this journey together. You know, UM,
Speaker 1: I need to find out what products you use. Will
Speaker 1: we'll we'll discuss off off the air. Been trying to
Speaker 1: figure that out. You know. I wanted to have you
Speaker 1: on the show so we could chat. Um, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's funny your name. Can I just say I'm nervous,
Speaker 1: and you know what, I like that. I would like
Speaker 1: for you to say that you nervous. I just had
Speaker 1: to get it out. I'm like that on stage two
Speaker 1: when I have something inside it's just seeing I have
Speaker 1: to say it's like a move past it. I'm nervous
Speaker 1: because there's a lot to say. Yes, well there's a lot.
Speaker 1: I'm because I'm good at singing about these things and
Speaker 1: talking about them for me is new, and although I've
Speaker 1: done a lot of work to to own my voice. Yes,
Speaker 1: this is a big, a big conversation, a lot of
Speaker 1: people watching, and we're not even going to sing, We're
Speaker 1: just talking. So it's I'm nervous. No, I'm glad that
Speaker 1: you said that. You know why I'm glad you said
Speaker 1: it is because two things. One, I feel like a
Speaker 1: lot of people are nervous to have conversations these days.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of us are nervous to
Speaker 1: have conversations because these days, conversations get broken down into
Speaker 1: sound bites as opposed to the conversations that they actually are.
Speaker 1: I know that that's happened to you. I know that
Speaker 1: happens to me many times. You know you. You You
Speaker 1: try and give a complete thought that is as flawed
Speaker 1: and as as complicated as human beings themselves are, and
Speaker 1: then someone will distill you into one part of a
Speaker 1: sentence that tries to turn you into into a lightning
Speaker 1: rod for a different conversation that you're not trying to
Speaker 1: be a part of. So so let let's start with this,
Speaker 1: because I think I understand this correctly. Joe Rogan is
Speaker 1: not your mortal enemy, right goodness? Uh no, And I
Speaker 1: don't even know him. But my conversation, of course, has
Speaker 1: been about Spotify and its treatment of artists. But because
Speaker 1: of what the media does now has become this conversation
Speaker 1: between me and him and about me and him, and
Speaker 1: I'm willing to have it because if the tears must
Speaker 1: be had, I suppose. But he's not. I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't have any mortal enemies. I like that. Let's let's
Speaker 1: talk about the music first and then we'll talk about
Speaker 1: the Joe Rogan of it all. So, you know, you
Speaker 1: said something that a lot of artists have been have
Speaker 1: been talking about with regards to Spotify being the biggest player,
Speaker 1: but streaming in general, and how like musicians have I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't have tricked is the right word, but it
Speaker 1: feels like a lot of musicians have been tricked out
Speaker 1: of earning money from their music. And now the labels
Speaker 1: make money from the music. We stream the music. We've
Speaker 1: we're supporting the artist, but really what we're supporting is
Speaker 1: the label, and then you are the artist are basically
Speaker 1: making zero money unless you are let's say, Drake or
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. They make the bulk of the money, no
Speaker 1: matter how much people sort of listen to you as
Speaker 1: India are am I am I even close to understanding
Speaker 1: what's happening with musicians who aren't top of the charts
Speaker 1: like the and and by the way, let's also include
Speaker 1: the fact that you are an award winning artist. You've
Speaker 1: sold ten million albums worldwide. It's not like you're you're
Speaker 1: you're a struggling artist. You are an artist, but it
Speaker 1: feels like it's a lopsided game. And am I close
Speaker 1: to understanding the concept? You're very close? There are a
Speaker 1: few distinctions I would make. Um. So, first of all,
Speaker 1: Spotify is not only the biggest player, but they're also
Speaker 1: the lowest payer. So songwriter and we had to come
Speaker 1: out there, and so what happens is they say, well,
Speaker 1: this is just how it is, this is just what
Speaker 1: this is what you get paid. But the labels and
Speaker 1: Spotify and the streaming platforms together are making those decisions,
Speaker 1: and so they're telling you this is what we decided,
Speaker 1: this is what you get. And so I know most
Speaker 1: music fans think, we think we listen, you get the money.
Speaker 1: We listen you get the money because we're listening to
Speaker 1: you that's why people don't buy albums anymore. We're still
Speaker 1: supporting you, is what we think. You listen, just talking
Speaker 1: about Spotify in particular. You listen, we get point zero
Speaker 1: zero three to point zero zero five of a penny,
Speaker 1: a fraction of a penny. That's what we get, and
Speaker 1: that's what makes it um. It has been making the
Speaker 1: professions of producer and songwriter unlivable for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I'm blessed that I have been successful, but a lot
Speaker 1: of people are just doing that as a job that
Speaker 1: they love and walking this type of this type rope
Speaker 1: of taking a chance, of using their gifts to take
Speaker 1: care of their families. Are just working musicians and the
Speaker 1: a lot of people can't do it now because because
Speaker 1: of the pay, the streaming is low, and now the
Speaker 1: pandemic has cut touring, and so a lot of people
Speaker 1: are like tired of even having the debate whether or
Speaker 1: not someone should get paid for their work. Now you
Speaker 1: hear a lot of artists talking about it. And what
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people missed in the video
Speaker 1: of yours that went viral was you saying that you know,
Speaker 1: as you say, we live in a world now where
Speaker 1: I get it I get clickbaits. I get that people,
Speaker 1: you know, these websites and the and the news organized
Speaker 1: that they need people to come into a story. Nuance
Speaker 1: doesn't sell, the conversation doesn't sell, just the click of itself.
Speaker 1: You must be sick of talking about your Rogan. I'm
Speaker 1: assuming like now because it seems like they've made it
Speaker 1: about you and him when it isn't. So forgive me
Speaker 1: for going back to this, but like, let's let's go
Speaker 1: back to that video and let's go back to that moment.
Speaker 1: A lot of people saw this video where India came
Speaker 1: out and said, hey, here's this Joe Rogan and word
Speaker 1: compilation where he's saying this and here's him telling a joke,
Speaker 1: you know, about black people being apes, and and you
Speaker 1: gave what what I felt was really impassioned plea in
Speaker 1: and around how you as the artists have contributed to
Speaker 1: creating the platform that this person is on, but the
Speaker 1: platform is not rewarding you, the rewarding that person. And
Speaker 1: what people lost in the conversation was you asking or
Speaker 1: arguing more about the power you have in the platform
Speaker 1: that you're part of creating, as opposed to canceling or
Speaker 1: wiping out Joe Rogan's podcast. So I would love to
Speaker 1: know when when you put that, when you put that
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan video out, what were you hoping would happen
Speaker 1: or what do you think would happen. I have to
Speaker 1: say that asking for my music to be pulled from
Speaker 1: Spotify and protests doesn't actually serve me because now my music,
Speaker 1: if things work out the way I want, my music
Speaker 1: won't be heard on the biggest streaming platform. But I
Speaker 1: did it in protest just because I felt like my
Speaker 1: dignity was being I felt like I was being distress affected.
Speaker 1: But I didn't think and there's a long conversation about that,
Speaker 1: about not being heard in the industry, not being respected
Speaker 1: in the industry for not just me, a lot of people,
Speaker 1: especially artists of color, especially women of color in the industry,
Speaker 1: And so I was just I just thought the only
Speaker 1: way to affirm my dignity and my integrity is to
Speaker 1: be honest about how I feel. So I asked to
Speaker 1: just take it down. I didn't expect anyone to listen,
Speaker 1: because I'm used to this certain type of treatment from
Speaker 1: the industry where they don't listen, they don't listen to
Speaker 1: what I say in the songs. They don't listen. When
Speaker 1: I say that there's mistreatment, they don't listen. I say it,
Speaker 1: but they don't listen. And so, UM, to be honest,
Speaker 1: that made it easier to say over the years because
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I'm say whatever, and some people were hearing.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm just being honest. And so when I
Speaker 1: was sitting on my couch that day and I made
Speaker 1: the decision to just say that I wanted my music off,
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't think it was gonna lead to all
Speaker 1: this and so but um, integrity is big here for me,
Speaker 1: and so being the same person I and inside as
Speaker 1: the one I act like outside, it made me have
Speaker 1: to maybe have to speak up. But also when I
Speaker 1: have invited into conversations like this that are a bit
Speaker 1: uncomfortable for me because I sing about this but I
Speaker 1: don't really talk about it much. Um, I'm willing to
Speaker 1: show up for it because this is what the world
Speaker 1: did with the conversation and all I can do is
Speaker 1: do my best to express. But I certainly I thought
Speaker 1: it would be easier because I thought they will, okay,
Speaker 1: take her off, all right, go ahead, take her off.
Speaker 1: And then I had to fight to get it off too.
Speaker 1: I'm still in a fight to get it off. That's
Speaker 1: that's that's really wild. It's really wild. What what holds
Speaker 1: other conversations? Yeah, it's it's really interesting. Just I think
Speaker 1: what it's exposed about the industry, the conversations that it's
Speaker 1: got us having. Now. So so here's my opinion. I
Speaker 1: think in America there's a really simplified conversation that people
Speaker 1: like to have because because it makes it makes people
Speaker 1: feel good about themselves, or it makes them feel like
Speaker 1: things are moving forward or not. You know, so it's
Speaker 1: it's easy to go good person, bad person, good guy,
Speaker 1: bad guy. Then we've solved it, and then it's done,
Speaker 1: you know, right, And and I know that I know
Speaker 1: that you've spoken on this. You know, you said there
Speaker 1: were parts of Joe Rogan's apology where you were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I I appreciate that he has learned that he shouldn't
Speaker 1: be running around saying the N word just to prove
Speaker 1: that he's edgy. And then you also said, I also
Speaker 1: don't know that I would label him a racist. And
Speaker 1: and and this really struck me because I mean I
Speaker 1: talked about that on the show, you know, countrary to
Speaker 1: what clickbait will tell you, Like I talked about that
Speaker 1: on the show, and I said, it is something that
Speaker 1: I struggle with, and I could see you having a
Speaker 1: similar you know struggle in that conversation is have you
Speaker 1: And I'm only honestly asking this question because I myself
Speaker 1: am in a world of trying to understand and get
Speaker 1: answers for myself. Did you get any closer to understanding that? Like?
Speaker 1: Do you think Joe Rogan is a racist? Do you like?
Speaker 1: How do you feel about the whole thing right now?
Speaker 1: I think there are two things that we consider when
Speaker 1: we talk about racism, and one is conscious racism and
Speaker 1: the other is unconscious racism. And so I have learned
Speaker 1: in my life too may groom and forgiveness for people
Speaker 1: who are unconsciously racist, because our whole society is built
Speaker 1: on racist concepts. So if you're born into it, if
Speaker 1: you're not actively working to not be racist, then you
Speaker 1: have some of it in you. And I mean, I've
Speaker 1: had people that I love who I know love me,
Speaker 1: always showed up for me, always were there for me.
Speaker 1: I had a musician dearly departed who I could cry
Speaker 1: thinking about him now. He loved me so much. We
Speaker 1: played together for twenty years, and every time we say,
Speaker 1: he would just look at me with so much like
Speaker 1: love and admiration. I mean, after twenty years, every time
Speaker 1: I'd saying, he just go you just look at me.
Speaker 1: We loved each other. But there were times when he
Speaker 1: would say racist things and I would have to be
Speaker 1: like hey, you know and something in the band. My
Speaker 1: band was mostly black men and women, and we would
Speaker 1: be like hey, hey, like trying to educate him because
Speaker 1: he was born into a world that taught him a
Speaker 1: certain way and didn't teach him other ways. And then
Speaker 1: there's conscious racisms when you know you're doing it. And
Speaker 1: like you said in your monologue, if a person keeps
Speaker 1: doing it, is that what we call them a racist?
Speaker 1: So if you know you're doing it and you keep
Speaker 1: doing it, I would say that is a racist. And
Speaker 1: So for me when I think about I want to
Speaker 1: be nice. I was gonna say this name that I'm
Speaker 1: tired of saying. But for me, when I think about
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, I think I think that he is being
Speaker 1: consciously racist. I mean, since the early nine we've had
Speaker 1: an agreement in our society that we don't say the
Speaker 1: word or P or you have to suffer the consequences
Speaker 1: and so saying it and then being like, what are
Speaker 1: you gonna do? Oh, sorry, I didn't mean that, or
Speaker 1: I didn't understand there was no context under which I
Speaker 1: should say it. I don't believe that. I think he
Speaker 1: knew there was no context. I think that's why he
Speaker 1: was saying it, because it got a rise out of people.
Speaker 1: That's why he would say it. He knew that it
Speaker 1: was inappropriate. And I think the fact that the fact
Speaker 1: that he did it repeatedly and was conscious and knew,
Speaker 1: I think that is being racist. And I don't like
Speaker 1: even saying that because I'm a sensitive, old soul and
Speaker 1: I want to believe the best in people. So when
Speaker 1: I first heard his apology, my instinct is to go,
Speaker 1: he tried. But when I go deeper and ask myself
Speaker 1: what I really think, from my commitment to truth that
Speaker 1: I've made this last year, what I really think is
Speaker 1: that he was being consciously racist. And it makes me
Speaker 1: wonder what he talks like behind closed doors. If you
Speaker 1: have even a consciousness where you can call black people apes,
Speaker 1: that's something there. I went back and I watched like
Speaker 1: a bunch of the podcasts, and it's really interesting that
Speaker 1: you say that, because I think there are two parts
Speaker 1: that I found myself breaking it into. Is like one,
Speaker 1: when Joe Organ started doing this thing, it's really interesting
Speaker 1: that you say that, what does he talk about in private?
Speaker 1: A lot of podcasts used to be a bunch of
Speaker 1: talking in private. You know, the way you said you
Speaker 1: never felt hurt. I think a lot of people used
Speaker 1: to make podcasts like that. It was just the thing
Speaker 1: they do in a basement with their friends and then
Speaker 1: they talk ship and they say whatever. I also say
Speaker 1: this as a comedian, like the ship that we talked
Speaker 1: about at comedy clubs. I don't know if it's the
Speaker 1: same with musicians or the things we're saying backstage. You're like,
Speaker 1: it's it's almost like, yeah, it's it's it's part and
Speaker 1: partible with the job. And by the way, it's not
Speaker 1: that we don't say things are racist. The amount of
Speaker 1: times I've said to a comedian around it, it would
Speaker 1: be like, that's racist the ship. They'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: come on, and we we we fight, but we're still friends.
Speaker 1: Maybe because we have more things that connect us than
Speaker 1: more things that separate us. But we are able to
Speaker 1: call things out as being racist, or as being sexist,
Speaker 1: or as being whatever. But we don't go you're not
Speaker 1: a human being anymore. You just go like, nah, man,
Speaker 1: that was you shouldn't have said that. That's racist? How
Speaker 1: can we even think that way? And then we and
Speaker 1: then we fight. I honestly found like what what happened
Speaker 1: like with the Joe Rogan thing? What I watched was
Speaker 1: I watched a guy where these clips are not from yesterday,
Speaker 1: these clips are from years ago. At some point Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan realized people were listening, I think, and also did
Speaker 1: not want to be that person, and so he just
Speaker 1: stopped using it. I think that counts for something personally,
Speaker 1: you know. But I also think there's an element of um.
Speaker 1: You know when they go what my grandmother would say
Speaker 1: of me when I was young, should go um. She'd
Speaker 1: say it in different ways, but essentially what you say
Speaker 1: about me. Sometimes you're being a ship. You're being a
Speaker 1: little ship. You know. It's where you you know which
Speaker 1: buttons to push because because you know what it gets
Speaker 1: out of people. I found generally, not just as a comedian,
Speaker 1: but as a person, oftentimes it is easy for us
Speaker 1: to engage in risque or risky topics or conversations when
Speaker 1: the danger is not in proximity to us. Do you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? It's funny like like like even
Speaker 1: even on the show, I remember we used to send
Speaker 1: people out to like two rallies. You don't like to
Speaker 1: go to Trump rallies and all of like the black
Speaker 1: correspondence to work on the show. We're like, I can't
Speaker 1: go there and it's not fun, you know. And then
Speaker 1: you would find like some of our white corresponders, let's
Speaker 1: say Jordan Clipper, he would go. Then he would say,
Speaker 1: it's the weirdest thing. He's not agreeing with these people,
Speaker 1: but they just have like a chummy nous with him
Speaker 1: where it's like they can almost they can almost say
Speaker 1: whatever they want to say, you know. And and there's
Speaker 1: an element of going like, oh, I look like you,
Speaker 1: so maybe you I think like you, you know. And
Speaker 1: so when it's funny that you say the thing of
Speaker 1: of of the Joe Rogan because I don't know, I
Speaker 1: I go, it's it's a it's it's one of those
Speaker 1: instances where you you go, do you do you put
Speaker 1: a hand out to a person and hope that they
Speaker 1: don't like chop it off or do you stay safe
Speaker 1: and put your hand in your pocket and go like, no,
Speaker 1: it's just safer to label you as this human being.
Speaker 1: And so I understand your conflict and the dilemmas that
Speaker 1: you're in because you know what you're saying. You're trying
Speaker 1: to be a person with a soul and a spirit,
Speaker 1: and you're trying to go, Hey, Joe Rogan, I'm glad
Speaker 1: that you acknowledge these things, because there are people who
Speaker 1: follow you who will go, Okay, I guess it's not
Speaker 1: okay to say this word. I'm glad you've acknowledged that.
Speaker 1: There's also people who go, okay, calling black people apes
Speaker 1: is racist. I'm glad that you've acknowledged this thing. But
Speaker 1: then at the same time, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: people go like, can you accept that? And should you
Speaker 1: accept that? And that's I think a conversation society is
Speaker 1: having as a whole is what is the path to
Speaker 1: redemption for anyone? We all want to forgive, we all
Speaker 1: want people to get better, we all want to see
Speaker 1: the change, But what is that part to redemption. I
Speaker 1: don't think we've ever truly figured that out in society.
Speaker 1: I don't think being a bad person and being racist
Speaker 1: are mutually exclusive? Or did I even say that? Right?
Speaker 1: I think being a racist doesn't automatically make you a
Speaker 1: bad person. I never knew how to use that saying.
Speaker 1: I don't know that being a racist makes you a
Speaker 1: bad person necessarily, it makes you a person who was
Speaker 1: raised in our society. Yeah, but when does it cross
Speaker 1: over into being a bad person or being harmful? When
Speaker 1: does it cross over into that? And so I feel
Speaker 1: like in the intellectual circles, what I've learned is that
Speaker 1: they would say there has to be power behind the
Speaker 1: prejudice to make it racism. You have racist thoughts that
Speaker 1: you can institute with power, and that's racism. And so
Speaker 1: if you're Joe Rogan and you have this huge listening audience,
Speaker 1: by you doing that, you emboldened them to do that.
Speaker 1: And now we're in trouble as society. Forgive me because
Speaker 1: I forget this man's name, but there's a Harvard professor
Speaker 1: that called it the atomic bomb of racial slurs. H.
Speaker 1: I don't believe Joe Rogan didn't know was the atomic
Speaker 1: bomb of racial slurs. I believe he knew. And even
Speaker 1: if he was, like you said, just being a little ship,
Speaker 1: that's one conversation. But now if you have power to
Speaker 1: institute it, and you have this whole audience that is
Speaker 1: now thinking, maybe it's okay for them to do it.
Speaker 1: Now we are in trouble with this atomic bomb. But
Speaker 1: sorry to cut you off on that before you move on,
Speaker 1: doesn't That's why I asked the question. Someone asked me
Speaker 1: this the other day. There was random in the streets.
Speaker 1: Someone walked up to me and they were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you destroyed Joe Rogan. I was like, first
Speaker 1: of all, I don't destroy anybody. I don't cancel people.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't slam, I don't ever rate I
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like violent language that gets used.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm predominantly a human being and then a comedian.
Speaker 1: Comedians we tell jokes most of the time. I don't
Speaker 1: take things that seriously. But what I found interesting was this.
Speaker 1: I found myself talking this person in the streets and
Speaker 1: I said to them, where where do we want to
Speaker 1: be in the world? Do we want to be in
Speaker 1: a place in the world where we say Joe Rogan
Speaker 1: leads people and so for by him saying the N
Speaker 1: word and making these jokes, he's leading them down the
Speaker 1: wrong path. But then by that logic, should we not
Speaker 1: then say by him acknowledging it's the wrong thing and
Speaker 1: by going down, then we should also acknowledge that that's
Speaker 1: a good thing. Because the last thing we want to do,
Speaker 1: and I'm genuinely afraid of this in society, is I
Speaker 1: don't want to live in a society where we cost
Speaker 1: people out because the like, as you say, the bad
Speaker 1: people are so happy for that. They're soul. They're like
Speaker 1: like there was that it's like another streaming platform or
Speaker 1: whatever it is. They offered Joe Rogan money. I don't
Speaker 1: know if they would give it to him or not,
Speaker 1: but they said, come Joe and bring all those N
Speaker 1: word podcasts with you. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And I was going like, Yo, do I do I
Speaker 1: want to live in a world where someone like Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan doesn't get a chance and becomes welcomed by the
Speaker 1: worst of ID Or do I want to live in
Speaker 1: a world where jar Rogan can say, yeah, poked up
Speaker 1: and yeah I was being full of ship, and yeah
Speaker 1: I was playing with racism and I pocked up and
Speaker 1: and and now I don't want to be a part
Speaker 1: of that. And then you go like his listenership is
Speaker 1: hearing this going like, yeah, Joe, we we agree with
Speaker 1: you because we follow you. This is not the cool
Speaker 1: thing to do. And the reason I asked that fun
Speaker 1: enough is because I think of it around the conversations
Speaker 1: of criminal justice reform. I think about how many people,
Speaker 1: especially in America, you know, live in a world where
Speaker 1: they commit a crime or they live a life that
Speaker 1: has forced them into crime. Right. People will argue about
Speaker 1: forced or not forced all the time, but I don't
Speaker 1: think anybody wants to do crime. You know. People do
Speaker 1: the crime, they serve their time, they get their punishment
Speaker 1: whatever it may be, as just or unjust as it
Speaker 1: may be. But I find society doesn't give them an
Speaker 1: opportunity to come back even when that's happened, and society goes, no,
Speaker 1: you are a criminal. And then I always ask people,
Speaker 1: I go, how long? How long are your criminal? For? Now? Right?
Speaker 1: You know? And so I wonder what that I go,
Speaker 1: Do I want your Rogan to now join a gang
Speaker 1: quote unquote, or do I want to live in a
Speaker 1: world where I can be like yo, Joe, Joe Rogan,
Speaker 1: you poked up. I should be able to say that
Speaker 1: as a person use India, you can say that's a person.
Speaker 1: I think we should all be able to critique, criticize,
Speaker 1: talk ship and and still live in the world where
Speaker 1: you go, even though I still do not want you
Speaker 1: to be like, you know what I mean, ostracized into
Speaker 1: a world that will encourage that behavior. Only maybe that's
Speaker 1: how I see it. That's how I see it too,
Speaker 1: And but I don't think we've yet seen changed enough
Speaker 1: behavior from Joe Rogan to say interesting, Okay, that's interesting,
Speaker 1: because I don't think he fully understands what he did there.
Speaker 1: And so I want to tell you my d m
Speaker 1: s and my comments are wild right now. And one
Speaker 1: of the people just all kinds of racial slurs and
Speaker 1: misogynistic ones. So yeah, all kinds. And so that says
Speaker 1: to me that these people who want to defend Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan think that this is the right language to do it.
Speaker 1: So Joe Rogan needs to do more than go oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. He needs to if you want to really
Speaker 1: leave your listeners down a new path, then leave them
Speaker 1: to the point where they don't feel that it's the
Speaker 1: right language to come into my d M S and
Speaker 1: call me an N word in defense of him. He
Speaker 1: needs to teach them that they shouldn't feel that way.
Speaker 1: They're not making him look good. You gotta It is
Speaker 1: an insane irony when you think about it, because I've
Speaker 1: had I've had the same thing. No, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: insane when you think about it. They literally come into
Speaker 1: your d M s calling you the N word, saying
Speaker 1: to you, how dare you say this about your Rogan?
Speaker 1: You N word? He's a good guy. You n world.
Speaker 1: And I hope you like every death threat you can
Speaker 1: imagine every go back to Africa, slur every do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And people don't understand when they
Speaker 1: say that to me, that means I must go on
Speaker 1: a vacation. It's not exactly a slift. I will go
Speaker 1: back to Africa to see my family. So but but
Speaker 1: but you see, I'm I'm glad you said that because
Speaker 1: I didn't think. I mean, I don't know anyone just
Speaker 1: having the experience. But it's interesting that you say that
Speaker 1: people live here. You said to me, like, oh, you're
Speaker 1: just an inward couldn't this what they throw all of
Speaker 1: the things in all of the things. But in defense
Speaker 1: of a person who said what I did was wrong
Speaker 1: and they're going, it's not wrong, it's it's such a
Speaker 1: complicated bowl of But that's interesting that you say that
Speaker 1: you feel like you would like to see Joe Rogan
Speaker 1: do a little more work in the world of tackling
Speaker 1: what he did and what it was all about. Yes,
Speaker 1: I would love to see him do more work around
Speaker 1: tackling what he did and what it's all about. Because,
Speaker 1: like I said, and as we kind of know, if
Speaker 1: you are a certain type of person in this world,
Speaker 1: if you're not doing especially as a white person, I
Speaker 1: want to say, if you're not doing the work to
Speaker 1: not be racist, then it's in you. So Joe Rogan
Speaker 1: has given the opportunity now to do the work and
Speaker 1: to teach other people like, hey, we this is why
Speaker 1: you know you have this show with eleven million people
Speaker 1: listen every time or whatever they're saying, leave them, learn
Speaker 1: for yourself and then lead them because now you're making
Speaker 1: this world a better place. And so I would love
Speaker 1: to see that. Also, what you said about being a
Speaker 1: comedian backstage, like and what you said, I think before
Speaker 1: we even came on camera. I'm not sure if you're
Speaker 1: on yet, but you said, I feel like we need
Speaker 1: to have mess in your conversations. I love the idea
Speaker 1: of being able to just talk about stuff and to
Speaker 1: be able to get some stuff kind of wrong and
Speaker 1: to be able to get it right and to be
Speaker 1: able to be messy and talk it through. I feel
Speaker 1: like that is idealistic, but it's what I would love
Speaker 1: to see because in the end, people can act like
Speaker 1: we're individuals and all that, but we really are interconnected humanity,
Speaker 1: and so being more and more divided is not going
Speaker 1: to fix anything. Being that fixes things is by talking,
Speaker 1: and maybe the talk won't work, but maybe it would,
Speaker 1: but just automatically being divided does not work. And so
Speaker 1: when I have these conversations on my social media, and
Speaker 1: like you said, I'm trying to be nuanced and to
Speaker 1: unpack it all. It's really hard to do with people
Speaker 1: who want you to and people who do at you
Speaker 1: use language as this blunt, forced instrument, and then they
Speaker 1: want you to do it too. But it's just not
Speaker 1: my nature. And so I'm trying to unpack it. And
Speaker 1: but I wish that that's what we could do, because
Speaker 1: what is what is canceling? Anybody do like like we
Speaker 1: know they'll just go somewhere else. Well, you have these
Speaker 1: people that you can influence, do do do influence them,
Speaker 1: do more than just saying oh sorry, that's not enough.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for joining me. And I'm really
Speaker 1: sorry for the ship storm that is created in your life.
Speaker 1: You know, UM, I know how horrible it is to have,
Speaker 1: UM I want to not feel safe. I'll say that,
Speaker 1: you know, UM if I if I can just imagine
Speaker 1: some of your d ms based on some of mine,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to you for how unsafe it can make
Speaker 1: you feel as a person, as a woman. Thank you
Speaker 1: for saying and so uh yeah, I'm sorry for the
Speaker 1: ship storm this is creating your life, and I'm grateful
Speaker 1: to you for taking the time and joining me to
Speaker 1: talk about it, because I do think. Can I please
Speaker 1: tell you something else? I have to tell you something else.
Speaker 1: If I may, you can say whatever you like. There
Speaker 1: is one year my life fell apart to my life's
Speaker 1: fault apart a few times. I keep putting it back
Speaker 1: together because that's life. But there's a big time back
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine and one of my mentors gave
Speaker 1: me the homework of figuring out who my hero was.
Speaker 1: They were like, you have to pick one who's your
Speaker 1: hero and I thought it was a musician, and maybe
Speaker 1: because I went through all these musicians, it took me
Speaker 1: two weeks to figure out that for a lot of reasons,
Speaker 1: my hero was Maya Angelo Hm and so because I
Speaker 1: am magic, I manifested being able to be with her.
Speaker 1: I went to her house in Harlem. We had this
Speaker 1: conversation and one of the things I asked her was like, basically,
Speaker 1: what what do I do? How do I navigate life
Speaker 1: and be my best? Basically we talked about other stuff,
Speaker 1: relationship ships and how to forgive broken hearts and all
Speaker 1: kind of other stuff, but the real question was what
Speaker 1: do I do? And our wisdom keeper I could cry,
Speaker 1: she said, just tell the truth. She said, I grew
Speaker 1: up in a time when telling the truth could get
Speaker 1: you killed because the Civil rights movement. And she said,
Speaker 1: and I always told the truth, and I've been working
Speaker 1: towards being more of that person. And in like showed
Speaker 1: me that I wasn't always being honest with myself. Because
Speaker 1: what I wanted to be able to do was see
Speaker 1: the best in everyone, see the best in our world,
Speaker 1: believe that we can be our best. That's what my
Speaker 1: music is all about. Anybody who knows my music. That's
Speaker 1: what you hear. People know brown Skin video here, but
Speaker 1: my my catalog is full of songs about spiritual ideals
Speaker 1: and concepts. Is what I do. And wanting to see
Speaker 1: the best in everything made it so that it wasn't
Speaker 1: oftentimes seeing what things were. And this thing I keep
Speaker 1: referring to of making a decision about being honest. I
Speaker 1: read this book from a woman named Martha Beck and
Speaker 1: she talked about it in Integrity Cleans, and so it
Speaker 1: sounded right to me because I'm having this disillusionment of
Speaker 1: like how I saw the world and what the world
Speaker 1: really is showing me and growing up. And so I
Speaker 1: decided last summer around may that I was just gonna
Speaker 1: tell the truth all the time and see what it
Speaker 1: did with my life, and of course thinking about Maya,
Speaker 1: and that's what I've been doing. And it's hard for
Speaker 1: me to say to point out someone and say, no,
Speaker 1: you're a racist. I don't want to be that person.
Speaker 1: But but for me, it is what is true. And
Speaker 1: this hasn't blown up my life. I wouldn't say. I
Speaker 1: would say it's given me an opportunity to further in
Speaker 1: investigate how honest I can be and the best that
Speaker 1: I can be because Maya Angelo is my hero, because
Speaker 1: I want to be something like her someday and the
Speaker 1: only way to get there is to be like her.
Speaker 1: And so I want to be a person who can
Speaker 1: be honest, who can have hard conversations and light ones,
Speaker 1: who can sing the stuff and speak it. And so
Speaker 1: I'm learning to see this as a scary moment but
Speaker 1: also an opportunity for growth, because growth is no it's
Speaker 1: always scary, really, And so that's where I'm at and
Speaker 1: I do sometimes I have been feeling a little bit unsafe,
Speaker 1: but more than anything, I'm feeling expanded. Can I say
Speaker 1: one thing to you before we go? Then, based on that,
Speaker 1: he has a he's a truth that, like one of
Speaker 1: my truths, is this. I think one of the biggest
Speaker 1: reasons people are so violently against calling a thing what
Speaker 1: it is, or seeing a thing for what it may be,
Speaker 1: or even acknowledging something in themselves is that we haven't
Speaker 1: developed a framework in society to allow people to not
Speaker 1: be that thing. And so if you live in a
Speaker 1: world where you are a racist, a sexist, misogynist, a xenophope,
Speaker 1: whatever it may be, a even if you are that true,
Speaker 1: you are brought up that way. You grew up in
Speaker 1: a community that whatever it may be, whatever may be,
Speaker 1: does society give you the option to not be that anymore?
Speaker 1: And does society give you the option to adopt a
Speaker 1: different label. If society doesn't do that, then people will
Speaker 1: violently refuse acknowledging any of these things because then they
Speaker 1: know that that means they're forever condemned to being kicked
Speaker 1: out of society, you know. And it's funny. I was
Speaker 1: talking to some friends back in South Africa the other day,
Speaker 1: but like the harshest punishment, and we talked about how
Speaker 1: like Africans used to deal with punishment, and one of
Speaker 1: the worst things that could happen to you in a
Speaker 1: South African tribe, you know, before like colonization even was
Speaker 1: if they really felt like you could not be reasoned
Speaker 1: within the tribe, you would be told to leave. That
Speaker 1: was your punishment. Not you wouldn't be put in a cage,
Speaker 1: you would be kicked out of society, which is the
Speaker 1: complete opposite of what people do today. And it's because
Speaker 1: they knew that that was one of the greatest punishments
Speaker 1: that you could, you know, um impose on another human
Speaker 1: is not let them be a part of And so
Speaker 1: I think, honestly, until America gets to a place where
Speaker 1: it can decide, and not just America, many places in
Speaker 1: the world, but until America gets to a place where
Speaker 1: it can go, Okay, you you did this, you were this.
Speaker 1: But now there's a time, there's a way, there's there's
Speaker 1: some path that you can that you can take towards reconciliation.
Speaker 1: Unless you do that, you will never have an honest
Speaker 1: conversation ever because people will dig in their heels and say,
Speaker 1: I cannot afford to be labeled racist in any way,
Speaker 1: shape or form, because that means I get kicked out
Speaker 1: of society. And so I would rather deny the fact
Speaker 1: that is right in front. I would rather not tell
Speaker 1: the truth because the truth won't set you free, it
Speaker 1: will do the complete opposite. That's what I honestly, but
Speaker 1: also denied to yourself, like it's easier to buy to yourself.
Speaker 1: You know. What I would love to see Joe Worldan
Speaker 1: do is to have especially some of our greatest thinkers,
Speaker 1: some of our greatest black female thinkers around race on
Speaker 1: his show, to have those messy conversations. That's what I
Speaker 1: would love to see because I want to see because,
Speaker 1: like you said, is there a way out? In education?
Speaker 1: Is the way out? Not that anybody's going to see
Speaker 1: him different because we don't know how to love each
Speaker 1: other really, but maybe it would matter, Maybe it would
Speaker 1: matter messy conversations in the area. I can talk to
Speaker 1: you forever. Thank you for taking the time, Thank you
Speaker 1: for being vulnerable with me, thank you for sharing the space,
Speaker 1: and uh I hope to see you again. Thank you too,
Speaker 1: Thank you to all Right, Well, that's our show for tonight,
Speaker 1: but before we go, please consider supporting Change Today, Change Tomorrow.
Speaker 1: There are an organization led by black women that helps
Speaker 1: black and underserved communities in Louisville with free grocery delivery programs,
Speaker 1: community garden development, food pantries, free COVID and HIV AIDS testing,
Speaker 1: and so much more. So if you want to support
Speaker 1: them in their work, please donate at the link below
Speaker 1: until tomorrow. Stay safe out there, get your vaccine, and
Speaker 1: please stop sending in the death threats. What's the Daily
Speaker 1: Show weeknights at eleven tenth Central on Comedy Central, in
Speaker 1: stream full episodes anytime on Paramount Plus. This has been
Speaker 1: a Comedy Central podcast. W