WEBVTT - E. Jean Carroll, Roberta Kaplan, Al Franken & Brian Klass 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.200 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.160 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.280 today's best minds, and transgender people in Florida now face 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:14.600 the state taking their drivers' licenses. We have a star 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.800 studded show today. Egene Carroll and Robbie Kaplan join us 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.360 to talk about their massive victory over former President Trump 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.520 and what's next in their quest for justice. Brian Class 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:29.080 talks to us about his new book Fluke, Chance, Chaos, 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.680 and why everything we do matters. But first we have 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:36.800 former Senator and host of the Al Franken podcast, the one, 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.040 the Only Al Franken. Welcome back to you Fast Politics. 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.519 One of my favorite guests, Al Franken, were You're my 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:49.480 favorite hosts except for like hosts who have like TV 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:55.360 shows and no no, So I want to start by 0:00:55.360 --> 0:01:01.080 talking about this insane border legislation. I had breakfast with 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.039 Chris Murphy on Friday morning at Steak and Eggs. Have 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:05.680 you ever been there? 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.880 No? But it sounds like I know what their menu is. 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:17.720 And I had it Homelet oh, okay, cheese eggs. I'm 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:20.959 getting to the headline here, and he said they had 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:25.000 been working on this border package for like about three 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:31.200 and a half months, and it's Langford, him and everyone's 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.360 favorite independent. She's not even everyone's favorite independent, right because 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:39.199 Bernie Sanders is everybody's favorite cinema with cinema, but she's 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.840 not everybody's favorite Independent, and that they had something. But 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.039 of course, you know what did that mean? So you 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:49.600 actually have worked with Langford? I mean, you've worked with 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.400 all these people, but you've certainly worked with Langford. 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:53.800 And Chris, Yeah. 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.040 And yeah, So we were just talking about I would 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.400 be curious, let's talk about this in Saturday. 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:04.040 Well, length Efford is very very conservative and on the border, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.920 and basically what they were trying to do is come 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.040 up with something that both sides could live with. And 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.000 we do have a problem at the border. I don't 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.360 know what's in the package. No one actually knows what 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.799 it is, but clearly it's going to be something much 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.040 stricter in terms of letting people in and kicking people out. 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.360 And they had a deal that included funding the war 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.639 in Ukraine and Israel. So they had it worked out 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.080 and they had worked on it for how many months? 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:35.960 I don't know, would Chris tell you like four months 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.880 or five months or something like that. They've been working 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:43.640 on us, I'm sure constantly, maybe much longer. And they 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.520 had a package and that they were going to go with, 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.960 and then Trump said I don't want it because I 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.000 want to have it not solved. I don't want Biden 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:53.760 to take credit. 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.239 I want something to run on, right, Yeah. 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:03.399 And they went, oh, okay, McConnell wall, all right, well, okay, 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.480 that's what you want. We want more judges, you know, 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:11.359 and and we want fascist running the government so right. 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.120 Because of the tax cut. Let me ask you a 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.560 question about Mitch McConnell here, because you actually know him too. 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.920 When Mitch McConnell said Trump wants us to kill this DL, 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.440 was Mitch McConnell actually trying to throw Trump under the 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:29.040 bus or was Mitch mcconnald just speaking truth to power. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.720 I think what he was doing is well for this, 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.320 either he'll get phone under the bus or it'll help him. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.640 I don't know, but I'm doing we're all supposed to 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.280 do right now from our own politics. And that's why 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.480 I think what he did. I think he was being 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.800 sincere though actually that he was saying like, okay, now 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.920 we got now we gotta do what the boss says, 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.240 and get him elected. That's what they want, and that's 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.480 that way they get judges, and that way they get 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:01.360 they get what they want. 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.560 It's such an insane thing to think about for a 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.280 minute here, because here's Mitch McConnell. This is probably, I mean, 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.160 I don't know, maybe he runs again. Never underestimate the 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:17.320 ability of senators to refuse to leave. But it does 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:22.039 seem like, you know, here you are into your older 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.599 years and you realize that your legacy is going to 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:27.279 be just like Trump Patsy. 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:32.680 Yeah, well, you know, everybody is Trump's Patsy basically on 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.320 the Republican Party right now. And that's the politics. They 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:41.000 want a Republican president. He's the he's the nominee, that's clear, 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:46.560 and he demands that kind of loyalty and fealty and 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:48.640 he gets it. They've surrendered. 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:53.279 So it seems like now even though Republicans don't control 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.000 the Senate and they only control the House by I 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.840 think it's two right now, right right? If Swazi when 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:06.359 then there'll be one. You would just need one Republican. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:07.640 Just one COVID. 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.200 That wasn't what I was thinking, but you could just 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:16.400 one to say you know this party is really pathetic. 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.880 I'm going to switch, and you have a speaker who 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:19.960 Keem Jeffers. 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.360 I hadn't thought of that. I don't know any Republican 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.640 House member who would do that. But I don't know. 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.160 I don't know hardly any of them anyway. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.919 Right, I mean, you only need one, and there are 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.640 a lot of them who are on their way out right. 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:39.480 I mean, I'm just saying, like Patrick McHenry, you know somebody. 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:41.480 I mean, obviously Patrick McHenry is not going to do 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.360 it because he comes from Freedom Caucus and is ultimately 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.839 probably as bad as the rest of them. 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:50.200 Yeah, you know the House lot. But I'd name someone 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.640 who would do this, and then what would happen to them? 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.000 They'd have to hire mid Romney levels of private security, 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.719 so they'd have to be quite rich. I mean, yeah, 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:04.280 it just seems is unlikely that there really isn't anyone 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.000 who could do that, not even could. I mean any 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.360 of them could, but none of them would. The thing 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.039 I'm so struck by. I want you to talk about 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:14.880 this for a minute, because this is something I feel 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.160 like we don't talk about but is actually really important. 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.240 Like the economy is quite good and Biden made this 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:25.680 big announcement to pause natural gas export because we are 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:30.840 now the largest exporter of natural gas in the entire world, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:31.680 and a. 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.400 Lot of that kind of happened because of the war 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.840 in Ukraine and Europe not taking gas from Russia. 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.440 Yeah, so here we are a gas giant pausing it 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:46.000 because Biden actually cares about the environment and wants to 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.159 look at the impact of some of what this is 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.160 doing to indigenous people. What this is, you know, a 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.160 sort of study, but it's clearly easy to ramp up. 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.640 It means that the OPEC does not have the monopoly 0:06:57.680 --> 0:06:59.920 it once did. It means a lot of really good things. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.640 So business leaders are not embracing Biden even though the 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.080 economy is so good. This is like this weird dichotomy 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.760 where Democrats don't get credit for good economies and Republicans do, 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.720 and then polling shows that people trust Republicans better on 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.400 the economy. Why does this happen, Well. 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:21.560 That's good propaganda by Republicans. Actually, Biden's economy and his 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:26.280 job creation numbers are higher than Trump's, and we have 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.680 to advertise that that's something we have to be talking about. 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.080 And people are beginning to feel it. I mean, there 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.640 has been that lag since that, you know, since nine 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:40.160 percent inflation, and that's scared of the Jesus out of people. 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.760 They had not seen that since you know, it's really 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.600 the seventies, and there's a lag from that that people 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:50.160 are beginning to see the economy is picking up. The 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.440 stock markets as the highest, you know, and that affects 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:57.000 people's pensions obviously, and the four oh one ks, et cetera. 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.720 I think that there's enough time between on the election 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.720 for people to see that Biden has been a much 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.320 better steward of the economy than Trump has, just in 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:07.440 terms of job creation. 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.480 It's like they all just want a tax cut. 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.200 I don't think all wealthy people want a tax cut. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.400 No, but I mean all these Republicans just want a 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:18.280 tax cut. 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.840 Right, Yeah, Americans don't Trump voters, don't Yes, Trump voters. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.160 Should people at the top be paying more? They'll say yes. 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.960 They don't like the elites. They you know, they feel 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.960 like the elites are self serving, and that's what the 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:37.000 Republicans are. They're self serving for people at the top. 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:41.240 And so this is one of the basic fights that 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.320 we have, and it's one that we really need to 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:49.000 be pressing, and that Biden needs to be pressing, which is, hey, everybody, 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.440 we're for taxing people at the top at a higher level. 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:57.800 That's what we do. That's what harright, that's our thing. 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.440 All polling shows that Americans want that, including Trump vote. 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.360 Yeah, no, I mean, this is the thing. It's economic populism. 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:11.760 Somehow the party that is the economic populist party cannot 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:12.679 get credit for it. 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:14.920 Well, we have to be loud about it. And this 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.000 is where Biden needs to get out and do rallies. 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.640 And Biden needs to go out and show that he 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.400 can do rallies, and he needs to be hitting these 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:27.000 points over and over again. 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.439 Yeah, we're in this news crisis, right, We're in this 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.400 mainstream media crisis where like there's such a drop off 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.880 and local news. A lot of these really good papers 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:42.960 are gone or going massive layoffs this year, like you know, 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.800 if you look at the numbers or humongous. 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.960 And where people get their local news now is from 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.560 talk radio, and talk radio is all this right wing 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:52.839 bladder and. 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.280 Also from social media right, which is like Jesse can 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.680 tell us what's happening on TikTok, But the algorithm did 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.240 have Again, I know this is not a huge group, 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:06.560 but they did have Osama bin Lawden's was it Osama 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:11.240 bin Laden? Yes, his letter to America trending? Yes, poor 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:12.400 Jesse has to. 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:18.640 Unmute Osama bin Laden's letter to America. 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:24.360 Yes, Jesse, tell Al Frank in this story, please unmute. 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:26.280 He's im poor Jesse. 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:31.480 Osama bin Laden's letter to America trended on TikTok when 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:37.000 the Israel October seventh started because it was an indictment 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:41.680 of American imperialism, and the kids found it relevant for 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:42.280 some reason. 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:43.880 Oh the kids. 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:45.920 Yeah, I'm really glad to be the voice of this. 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.240 This is really what the paycheck pays me for. 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.760 And there's some sense in which it's very possible that 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:56.280 the algorithm may have helped. 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.880 This out right, the algorithm, once something starts to trend THEND, 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:01.840 then it just goes nuts. Is that it? 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:06.280 Yeah, TikTok again. There is a sense in which the 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:12.400 algorithm supports more of a negative bent in America versus 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.720 in China, where it encourages children to read and be good. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.200 I see so, and that's what was in Osama bin 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:21.080 Laden's letter. 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.520 No, no, no, definitely not. 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.680 I didn't I was just confused there for a segment. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.040 The death to America for refrain was pretty strong, as 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.280 I recall from the early days of the two thousands. 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:36.880 Yeah, not great. 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:46.840 So Issama bin Laden wrote two letters, one for Chinese TikTok, 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.439 which is a wholesome Listen to your parents, do your homework, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.320 try to get into an American university. That's because it 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:59.280 was written several years ago. He doesn't say that anymore. 0:11:59.400 --> 0:11:59.920 He wouldn't. 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.280 He was known for his misscleoes to see the future. 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.160 Try to go to an American university, but don't fly there, 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:09.080 go by boat. 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:17.080 Anyway. The point is, yes, I'm sorry, please help me. 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:18.120 That was dark. 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.040 I'm sorry it was really dark, but it was sort 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.320 of hilarious. But again, here we are on the precipice 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.000 of another Trump Biden showdown, and I think there's a 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.800 lot of anxiety, right, I mean, why do the stakes 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.520 have to continually be so high? 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.640 Well, the stakes are incredibly high right now. Did you 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:44.040 notice we have the possibility of Donald Trump being elected 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:46.600 and the second term is going to be very different 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.280 than the first, meaning it's going to be the first 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.480 on steroids. I mean it's going to be if one 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:58.160 be vindicated and two there'll be just no holes barred. 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.880 And I I assume that if he wins, they'll be 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.960 or there may very well be a Republican Senate and 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.160 may very well be a Republican House, although I don't 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.880 see them holding the House because I think Americans have 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.360 been watching this house enough. 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.040 To see us so bad. 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.199 To see how I mean, this is a spectacularly bad house. 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:25.200 I actually see possibility of both houses whipping Trump. Yeah, 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:30.040 this is an existential threat to our democracy, and if 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.720 he becomes president or this country, the nature of this 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:38.160 democracy changes, meaning it may not be one. And at 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.680 the end of four years. Yeah, we got nine months 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.360 of this of being scared. 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.600 You know, it's funny because it's like, it's not funny, 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.440 but it's the like, do you want to have elections election? 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.000 I was listening to NPR and they were talking about 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:58.120 how Trump is only eligible to serve four more years, 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.880 and I'm thinking myself, like, oh, okay, well, I'm sure 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:01.959 then he'll stick by that. 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.240 I see him doing all kinds of things. I worry 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.840 about him switching the parliamentarian in the Senate and try 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.880 to do everything with fifty votes. If he has fifty 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:17.319 if you look at the history of autocracies, there's all 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.680 kinds of things he can do, you know, and at 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.120 a certain point the autocrat says, nope, we're changing this, 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.000 and he's able to. This is as frightening as is. 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.440 Last night I was on CNN. I read just a 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:34.440 couple things, and I want to get these guys to 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:38.240 start speaking out. This is James Mattis, who was of 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.800 course Sectuary of Defense, talking about Trump. He is more 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:45.680 dangerous than anyone could ever imagine. Now he said this, 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.360 and these guys tend to say these things once or 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.680 write them once. They got to start talking like every day. 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.240 This is John Kelly, who was his chief staff. Right. 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.760 The depths, the depths of his dishonesty is just a 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.640 to me. He is the most flawed person I have 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.240 ever met in my life. Now it's sort of up 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.440 to these guys, I think, not to say this once, 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.280 but to be saying it every day. And they're supposed 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.240 to be patriots, they were military, they love this country. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.640 This guy is so dangerous and we need everybody, not 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:27.440 just hopefully Taylor Swift, because she didn't serve with him. 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.400 She didn't you know, she didn't see it. Up close 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.440 and these guys did. I mean, there's on and on 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.040 it goes with these people and they say these things 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.480 once and get quoted in some story. But they have 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.840 to they have to come out. So this is my 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.800 new thing. I'm just pounding this. You guys come out 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.320 and start talking and start talking every day. 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:53.000 Yeah, exactly, Al Franken, thank you so much for joining us. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.800 You bet, Molly. Always a pleasure, always fun, except now. 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.680 Egen Carroll is a columnist and author. ROBERTA. Kaplan is 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.200 a lawyer who represented Egen Carroll in our case against 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:13.520 Donald Trump, as well as arguing United States v. Windsor 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:24.040 Welcome back to Fast Politics. Robbie Caplan and Egen Carroll, you. 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:25.760 Don't much better you need than you, Egene. 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.120 I want to talk to you about this case because 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:36.000 I remember when I introduced George to Egen, he said, oh, 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:39.000 I know the lawyer. I know the lawyer. I know 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.160 the woman who can do this case. How did you 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.480 know George, Robbie. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.680 You know, I don't think I really knew him. I mean, 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:49.440 he was a lot tough for many years while I 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.960 was at Paul Weiss. I certainly knew who he was 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.360 because lawyers at firms like that kind of generally know 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.040 each other. I don't think we ever had a case together, 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.960 or I cannot call any circumstances in which we interacted. 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.800 But when Trump was elected and George, who I thought 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:08.440 was remarkably not only prescient but courageous and disavowing him 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.320 right away as a conservative Republican, we somehow became acquainted. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.480 And I don't honestly when he made that call, and 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:16.240 not even should we'd ever met yet. 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.280 It's so interesting because it's like the thing you were 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:24.680 so famous for was same sex marriage, right, arguing that 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.560 from in front of the Supreme Court. It's a different 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:32.000 kind of moral courage, but it's similar in a certain way, right. 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.160 I don't know how to answer that. I think George 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.320 is more courageous doing what he did because I was 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.639 very My decision on Windsor was very popular among the people. 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:46.120 I found that with George, his decision was exceedingly unpopular 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:47.840 in the group of people he found that with so 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.080 very My wife supported me. His wife was. 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:57.080 Much Yeah, she's. 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.720 Not a fan of mine either. So let's talk about 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.119 how this case when, and sort of a little bit 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.400 about as you were getting going in it. How was 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.800 the process? This is all because of this Adult Survivors 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:09.840 Act too. Right. 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:14.160 The case that was tried first, that was tried less Spring, 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.560 was all because of the Adult Survivors Act, which Egene 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:18.040 herself tried helped bring about. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.880 And that is the second case. Right. 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.439 Yeah, with the second case that was filed, it just 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.040 moved a lot faster because it didn't have any of 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.480 these complicated issues about federal power and whether he was president, etc. 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.800 Right. Can you talk a little bit about the Adult 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.119 Survivors Act and also Egene's involvement in that. 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.000 Sure. So the Adult Survivors Act was a law that 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.680 grew out of the realization by many many people that 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.520 women who had been sexually assaulted, for example, at the 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.679 time that Egene was assaulted, and even for years and 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.919 years before that, quite rationally, in my view, at that 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.160 point in time, would have and could have it probably 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.080 should have made the decision not to report it. We 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.359 weren't a society that was particularly open. 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:03.040 To those issues. 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.320 The DA's offices weren't particularly open to those issues, and 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.520 so a lot of women again rationally, decided to keep 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:11.919 it quiet. So the Adult Survivors that said, look, if 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:13.960 that had happened to you many years ago, and you 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.280 could no longer be a claim because of what's called 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.400 the statue limitations, which means your case is barred by 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.440 the time limits. You can have a free one year 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:24.919 look back, essentially, in which during the course of that 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.840 year you can bring those claims and statute of limitations 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.320 are not a defense. That's basically what it did. That 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.240 that period is now over. It began two Thanksgivings ago, 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:36.880 when it ended last Thanksgiving. Egen, you should talk about 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:37.920 your role of getting a tasked. 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:39.960 Yes, please do, Molly. 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.240 As you know, I'm not good at politics. I don't 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.439 about how to even go about it. Robbie's wife, Rachel 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:49.480 A Line was my sort of my coach the goose. 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.119 I turned the board myself to write to every single 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:56.520 member of the House of Representatives in Albany. I didn't 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.359 know how to be assembly the Assembly, all the Assembly members. Molly, 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.520 how do you write a letter to all the Assembly 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:08.720 members in Albany? And she really coached me through. So 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.320 that was the first thing we did. Second thing we 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:16.480 did is I went to Albany with Rachel Tuckman, one 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:20.879 of our great lawyers here, and Rachel at the time 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.000 she didn't want anybody. Now it was six weeks pregnant, 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.280 and that woman ran up. You've been to Albany and 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.879 Molly right the down staircase or wherever that thing is going. 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.639 There were so many stairs in the New York camp up. 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:38.000 And that woman is six weeks who was told she 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:46.560 should not be traveling, walking, driving. She went the stairs, 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:51.160 We got into the elevator. We went from office to office, 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.800 knocking on doors, introducing ourselves. And here's the thing on 0:20:55.400 --> 0:21:01.320 Nobody wanted to talk to us. Now body, nobody wants 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:05.200 to hear about sexual assault. They just they feel bad 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.160 about it. They don't know how to handle it. They 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.400 don't want two women knocked around their doors show the saw. 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:19.240 You know, they don't except Linda Rosenthal. She said, come girls, 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:22.119 and we sit down, and she helped us plot out 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:26.440 and Senator Brad hole in money those two really and 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.800 plus the letters, I think ana a little bit and lo, 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:34.159 lo and behold the thing passed. It passed amazing. It 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:36.520 made all the difference. And look what happened. 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:40.880 Remember at the end, everybody, remember last month when everybody 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.800 started coming forward, and remember on puff Daddy. 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:49.440 So this adult Survivors Act. There's a certain window and 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.399 which you can come forward, and I think when does 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:54.480 it end? I think it ended last month, right. 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:56.880 There might have some extensions for whatever reason, but it's 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.639 oldver it ended at a little bit. I think the 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.240 woman and who Sue Litle purported to sue Sean Colms 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:05.359 was doing so order in New York City law, which 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.600 was about to expire. I think we built survivors that 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:12.800 expired around Thanksgiving, Okay, November twenty second, twenty twenty three. 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.600 I don't know. We spend so much time on this 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:18.960 podcast talking about conservatives going into the legal system to 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:23.520 take away our rights, especially after Row. It's really interesting 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:27.360 the idea that you could conceivably change these rights so 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:29.639 that survivors would have more rights. 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:31.879 Well, yeah, well that's what and that's is that how 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:32.920 what happened? More rights? 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.520 Who are got more rights? 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:38.879 I mean part of the right side in terms of 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:43.920 kind of what's happening legally at SCOTUS right now. Theoretically, 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:46.080 at least, the states should have a lot more power, 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.879 and so states like New York and California and others 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:52.399 that want to pass progressive legislation should have more power 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:55.000 to do so as a Supreme court kind of gets 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:56.800 you rid of all these federal protections. 0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:00.920 It's a halcyon thought. Unlikely, right, I mean, And they're 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.320 ultimately their goal is just to dismantle the federal governments. Ye, 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:08.320 do whatever they want. I'm curious. So now, so just 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:12.919 tell me about the sort of process of waiting. I mean, Egene, 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:18.959 I'm sure that you were flooded with vitrial. I always 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.600 find like that it actually kind of gets to me, 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:23.480 even though I say it doesn't get to me, it 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:24.359 sort of gets to me. 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:30.800 Oh well, it's intense today, yet very intense today after 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:35.080 we did Madou last night, and we did yesterday, and 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:39.480 you know, the morning shows, and they just are because 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:46.320 we really really trounced Donald Trump, and it's making people 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:51.879 a little insane. His supporters, they really can't believe that 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:55.840 an elderly woman and a hot shot lawyer and a 0:23:55.920 --> 0:24:01.879 team of young just indestructible attorneys almost well of us 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:06.000 who are women, just wrongstier. So it's making people a 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:08.800 little nervous, and so they strike out at Robbie and me. 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:11.280 So I think a lot about this, Like you're my 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:13.920 mom's age, you're a little younger than my mom, and 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.920 you are Donald Trump's age right now. 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:20.200 I'm eighty eighty, your mom's. 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:23.639 Eight eighty three. I had told you that I was 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:27.880 walking down the street. Erika John was the first celebrity 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:31.119 I saw, and I had just come in from Montana. 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:34.119 I'm walking down the avenue and there comes this vision 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:37.760 blond hair, yards of it lying out around her head. 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:41.480 And this was a woman I work you reading in 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:46.520 my little Montana cabine. Fear of flying made such an 0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:50.160 impression on all this, and she's coming towards me. I'm 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:51.080 walking my dog. 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:55.120 I just I can't believe it. I was in nningar 0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:59.760 Erica John herself walking down the street, and she was 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.200 so I did. I was not prepared for her beauty, 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:06.840 much of which you create, and you've been inherited with 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:08.359 your massive amounts it. 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:11.160 Well, I don't know what color your here today, Molly 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:14.240 spread and blonde. 0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:17.160 So but let me ask you. Now, you're in this 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:22.640 moment where Trump and his followers and his are you know, 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:24.680 he's not going to pay a penny of it. We're 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:27.800 going to appeal. Da da da da da. Talk me 0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:30.840 through next steps. So here's where we are right now. 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:34.240 Did vertice has come in. Trump has an opportunity, which 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:36.840 I'm sure people take, to file what are called post 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:40.120 traum motions, basically arguments to the judge that the jury 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:41.520 verdict should be set aside. 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:45.200 Those arguments have about a zero percent chance of success. 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:49.840 Once Judge Kaplan denies those motions, then he will issue 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:53.160 what's called the judgment, and then Trump has I think 0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:57.680 it's thirty days to either seek an appellate bond or 0:25:57.720 --> 0:26:01.480 to deposit about eighty nine or ninety million dollars with 0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:04.480 the court. Last time, when the verdict was only five 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:08.359 million dollars, he actually deposited five point five million dollars 0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:10.320 in the court. This time, he's either got to get 0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:13.280 a bond or he has to deposit ninety million dollars. 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:16.000 If he doesn't, that means that we can start ed 0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:16.960 forcing right away. 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:18.240 So what does that mean? 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:20.359 That means we could say he'd give us pay us 0:26:20.400 --> 0:26:22.280 the money, and if he can't pay it all, we're 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:25.479 allowed to get information about his bank accounts, about his 0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:29.440 checking accounts, about how much he's earning, his tax statements, 0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:29.840 et cetera. 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:34.280 And that will ultimately destroy the myth of Donald Trump. 0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:36.760 I don't know that for a fact, but I wouldn't 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:38.840 be shocked. You mean the myth of him is being wealthy. 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:41.560 Yeah, well, I mean you'll be able to see everything 0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:43.080 he's hidden for so long. 0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:46.639 So when does that mean our case closes? Robin? Where's 0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:50.560 our case? Club? Our chief closes? Finally closes when the 0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:53.879 appellate court is done with it, the Second Circuit and 0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:56.439 if he seeks reviews to the Supreme Court, which I 0:26:56.440 --> 0:27:00.240 think is extremely doubtful here when they probably or not 0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:05.240 taking the case. Okay, so he remained open, so it'll 0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:07.000 switch courts, so it'll go from the district court to 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:07.800 the Second Circuit. 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:11.720 But well, man, he defans me again. Yes, is our 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:12.959 case still open? 0:27:13.320 --> 0:27:14.760 No, we would have to follow if we want to 0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:16.720 bring the case, we'd have to follow yet another case. 0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:19.520 Carol three. I see. 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:23.400 But I'm curious. Now you had this experience of being 0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:26.640 in these depositions with him. Can we talk a little 0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:29.240 bit about what that was like? What was that like? 0:27:30.280 --> 0:27:33.200 It was not as crazy, believe it or not as 0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:36.840 the trial, which was one of the crazy experienced, but 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:38.080 it was pretty crazy. 0:27:38.200 --> 0:27:41.560 Can you tell the story of what he said to you? 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:44.480 I did shoo depositions with him. The first one was 0:27:44.480 --> 0:27:47.440 in another case that's about a fraud case, really, and 0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:50.760 at the end of that deposition he was not happy 0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:53.640 with me. And at the end of that deposition they 0:27:53.680 --> 0:27:56.080 said something like off the record, off the record to 0:27:56.119 --> 0:27:58.240 make sure that everything was turned off, and he said 0:27:58.280 --> 0:28:01.720 to me, see you next Tuesday. I, fortunately for me, 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:04.639 had no idea what that meant. So I, what are 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:08.119 you talking about. I'm coming back on Wednesday. Literally, But 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:09.919 I said it sounds like I was being witty, but 0:28:09.960 --> 0:28:12.320 it was just ignorant. And then we got in the 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:14.840 car and my associates, my colleagues told me what he meant, 0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:16.320 and I was like, thank god I didn't know, because 0:28:16.320 --> 0:28:20.399 I would have gotten very upset. And then later that 0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:24.119 next Wednesday, we were there for the eging Arreld deposition, 0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:29.000 and that's where he made these very very significant errors, including, 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:32.160 you know, talking about the excess Hollywood tape and saying 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:35.479 how fortunately or unfortunately men had been able to get 0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:38.800 away with that from millions of years, and looking at 0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:42.560 a photo of Ejen her then husband, Donald Trump, and 0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:45.080 his then wife in point to Gene and saying, that's 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:45.800 Marlon Maple's. 0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:49.000 That was incredible. I remember talking to you after that, 0:28:49.240 --> 0:28:52.560 to seeing you socially somewhere, it's just so like it 0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:55.840 just negates all the lies he was saying about are Yeah. 0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:57.760 I mean I was because when he listened to the video, 0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:00.480 I'm kind of like soft at my wisaritory and I said, 0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:02.600 did you just say that was Marlon Bapoles And I 0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:03.840 say something like that, and. 0:29:03.960 --> 0:29:06.840 I'm so shocked. Unbullieable but never Molly. 0:29:06.920 --> 0:29:09.800 And he says to grab and he said, no offense, 0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:13.360 but I'm had a tragure. Gee, you either we're not 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:16.720 right take eye typing either. And of course he air 0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:20.240 is the thing on a tirade against Rodney. You know, 0:29:20.600 --> 0:29:23.640 she's a Democratic wob of grabit Center and Center. That's 0:29:23.680 --> 0:29:24.720 how he ended that. 0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:28.080 Oh, Robbie Johnam, I hadn't for lunch or that was 0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:30.479 the first deposition. He looks to me, he said, well 0:29:30.480 --> 0:29:32.560 I wanted to I said, okay, sir, I'm going to 0:29:32.600 --> 0:29:34.640 cover this one more topic and then we'll break for lunch. 0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:36.200 And he said, why do we have to break for lunch? 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:38.440 I just want to go straight through And I said, look, 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:40.720 I would, but there's a court reporter here, there's a 0:29:40.760 --> 0:29:42.720 videographer there, title to lunch breaks, that we're gonna have 0:29:42.760 --> 0:29:44.560 to take a break, And then you could kind of 0:29:44.600 --> 0:29:47.120 see his brain clicking, and he said, well, you're here 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:48.680 in mar A Lango. What do you think you're going 0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:52.000 to eat for lunch? And I said, well, I actually 0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:54.600 raised this with your attorneys yesterday, including Onlina Hob I think, 0:29:54.640 --> 0:29:56.840 and I said, and they graciously offered to provide us 0:29:56.840 --> 0:29:59.160 with lunch, at which point he took a huge pile 0:29:59.200 --> 0:30:01.760 of papers them across the team. 0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:05.640 It really does seem unfit, right. 0:30:05.840 --> 0:30:11.120 Yeah, and all of that Molly is nothing, literally nothing 0:30:11.640 --> 0:30:13.600 compared to the way he acted in that corporo. 0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:16.240 Yeah. First, I want you to talk about the pointing, 0:30:16.320 --> 0:30:19.480 because I think that's really interesting. And then I want 0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:23.720 you to talk about how much candidate Trump really hurt 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:24.719 defendant Trump. 0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:27.520 Oh yeah, the answer is a lot. So in terms 0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:29.440 of the pointing, I didn't even see it because when 0:30:29.440 --> 0:30:31.800 I'm in court, I'm very formal. I don't turn back 0:30:31.800 --> 0:30:34.960 and I was facing forward. But I realized afterwards. I 0:30:34.960 --> 0:30:39.200 think a reporter told me that during her rebuttal, Sean Crowley, 0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:41.880 who's quite tall and was wearing heels, so she was 0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:46.120 super tall every time she mentioned Donald Trump stood and 0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:48.400 kind of pointed at it. He would have been to 0:30:48.440 --> 0:30:52.479 her last and apparently he was just like glaring at her, 0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:54.800 and she's pointing at him, and it was quite quite something, 0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:57.200 very very courageous of her, dramatic. 0:30:57.560 --> 0:31:00.560 I would love you to just talk about what happened 0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:04.520 in the courthouse that you felt like really hurt him. 0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:06.800 There's a kind of a way, I think, to reduce, 0:31:06.840 --> 0:31:08.680 to concentrate it all down and think about it this 0:31:08.720 --> 0:31:12.160 way in this case, which was only about damages and 0:31:12.200 --> 0:31:16.880 in which we really focused on all his repeated defamations 0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:20.320 of Egene, even those after the verge in the last case, 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:24.240 continuing during this trial, like he would leave the courthouse 0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:27.360 and he would go and to fade Egene again, if 0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:29.960 that's the subject of the case. And you're basically saying 0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:33.240 to the jury, here's a man who's a bully, who 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:36.400 cannot follow the rules, who thinks they don't apply to him. 0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:40.600 Acting in the courtroom like a bully who can't follow 0:31:40.640 --> 0:31:43.680 the rules is arguably not a great strategy. I think 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:49.520 the anti strategy, that's not a great idea. And so 0:31:50.000 --> 0:31:51.800 we were joking the other day, I'm not even sure 0:31:51.800 --> 0:31:54.160 Sean and I needed to close. I think we just 0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:56.520 like sat down because they saw it all for themselves. 0:31:56.600 --> 0:31:59.320 Oh no, and you're closing, moll. And you read this 0:31:59.400 --> 0:32:00.280 granscript right. 0:32:00.320 --> 0:32:03.360 Yet no would talk to us about the closing arguments. 0:32:03.480 --> 0:32:08.720 Oh, it was brilliantly built, it was movie, it was powerful. 0:32:09.440 --> 0:32:13.320 Robbie had the jury in the palm of her hand. 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:18.280 This story is very odd, Molly. They were very intensely 0:32:18.760 --> 0:32:23.320 paying attention, but they didn't think it was correct to 0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:27.480 look at the attorneys. They were very careful, not together. 0:32:27.640 --> 0:32:30.680 They didn't even look at it. During the clothing argument, 0:32:31.120 --> 0:32:33.360 they looked at Ross's. Sure they were torturing us because 0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:35.560 they literally would not work our way. They would not 0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:35.920 let her. 0:32:36.040 --> 0:32:39.240 But during their clothing you were aware of Robbie. 0:32:39.280 --> 0:32:40.920 Then every once in a while they would look at 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:44.520 you because you could not look away because she was 0:32:44.640 --> 0:32:50.480 describing what the man had done. And she told her 0:32:50.600 --> 0:32:55.080 riveting story, and of course she was and only just begun. 0:32:56.840 --> 0:33:00.360 She so incited him that when you could hear a 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:04.720 pin drop in the courtroom for the closing was so amazing, 0:33:05.280 --> 0:33:09.400 when everybody was riveted to her, He stands up and 0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:10.720 I don't think he walks out. 0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:12.240 He stalked up. 0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:16.080 He's stalked up, and Robbie is, of course, as she's 0:33:16.120 --> 0:33:19.520 told you, she was outawhere. Judge Chaplin had to say 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:22.840 for the record, he's defendant has left the courtroom, I think, 0:33:22.920 --> 0:33:25.800 or he says like that, lots the car, and Robbie 0:33:25.840 --> 0:33:30.000 of course doesn't miss a beat. She goes right on 0:33:30.280 --> 0:33:33.160 with the next say, she didn't miss her the flow, 0:33:33.880 --> 0:33:38.520 She just went on and it was well drawn him 0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:41.440 from the road. He did come back for Hoba. 0:33:41.640 --> 0:33:42.760 For Hobba, he. 0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:46.680 Left because he was obviously couldn't control himself. Maybe. 0:33:46.680 --> 0:33:49.360 I mean, it seems like only about eight minutes into 0:33:49.440 --> 0:33:51.440 my clothing, which was an hour, so you know, at 0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:52.080 the very beginning. 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:54.520 Wow. And then he came back later. 0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:58.000 He came back when I was done to watch Alena 0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:00.920 Hobba clothes. And then maybe because they convinced him he 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:03.880 couldn't do it again, he had to stay for Sean 0:34:03.920 --> 0:34:06.280 Crowley's rebuttal Yeah. 0:34:06.680 --> 0:34:07.320 Oh wow. 0:34:07.600 --> 0:34:10.040 Can you just talk to us about his legal representation 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:13.239 because he used to have Joe Tacopina right right the 0:34:13.280 --> 0:34:18.000 first trial, Yeah, and then he switched. Was Alena Habba. 0:34:18.600 --> 0:34:20.799 The person who should be taking a trial. 0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:23.840 Yes I'm not. It's not for me to say, but 0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:26.080 I don't think she's had a lot of trial experience. 0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:30.200 And Judge Kaplan is a very strict he said it 0:34:30.360 --> 0:34:34.600 on the record, a very formal judge who expects lawyers 0:34:34.800 --> 0:34:37.600 not only to behave but to do things in the 0:34:37.640 --> 0:34:39.839 proper way. And if you don't know how to do 0:34:39.880 --> 0:34:42.360 things in the proper way, he loses patience, which he 0:34:42.480 --> 0:34:45.719 lost many, many, many times. And she would really talk 0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:47.279 to him. I mean, the one thing that was the 0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:48.880 most stressful part of it all and why it was 0:34:48.960 --> 0:34:53.000 so much crazier than the depositions, is between Trump kind 0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:56.600 of shrugging and walking out and making gestures and kind 0:34:56.640 --> 0:35:01.440 of talking under his breath and Haba directly challenging the 0:35:01.560 --> 0:35:05.879 judge in the most obstinate, in disrespectful way. The very 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:08.839 first day, she said to him, I really don't appreciate 0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:12.040 how you're speaking to me, but I can't. I have 0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:14.719 to tell you, Molly, I can't imagine saying that to 0:35:14.760 --> 0:35:17.080 a judge. Yeah, I don't know what drug I would 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:19.520 have to be on to say that to a judge. 0:35:20.200 --> 0:35:22.279 So it was always toense because you kind of never 0:35:22.360 --> 0:35:24.600 knew when those things were going to happen. Judge Kevin 0:35:24.600 --> 0:35:27.879 did an amazing job of keeping his equanimity, but it 0:35:27.960 --> 0:35:28.600 was a struggle. 0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:29.120 Yeah. 0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:34.680 Yeah, and the jury they were protected their anonymous jurors. 0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:38.239 This is a pretty unusual thing to do, right, Yeah. 0:35:38.280 --> 0:35:41.960 So it's not uncommon in criminal cases, like in terrorism cases, 0:35:42.000 --> 0:35:44.640 it happens all the time, but in civil cases it's 0:35:44.760 --> 0:35:47.800 very rare. They did it in My Nazi, My Charlott's 0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:49.480 Fall Nazi case for similar reason. 0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:49.759 Yeah. 0:35:49.800 --> 0:35:52.080 I think it was this. Among the many smart decisions 0:35:52.160 --> 0:35:54.120 that the judge made, this might have been the smartest 0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:57.840 because the jury felt completely safe and completely protected. And 0:35:57.920 --> 0:35:59.480 at the end he said to them, you know, I 0:35:59.520 --> 0:36:01.759 can't tell you not to speak to the lawyers or 0:36:01.760 --> 0:36:04.640 not to expose yourselves, but if I were you, I 0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:06.840 would tell you not to My advice you would be 0:36:06.880 --> 0:36:09.120 not to do That's not arning. Yeah. 0:36:09.600 --> 0:36:15.520 Wow, it feels so chilling. Robbie, Kaplan, Eji and Carol, 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:18.800 thank you guys so much. Really appreciate you both. 0:36:19.200 --> 0:36:20.200 Thank you, Thank you. 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:26.240 Molly. Brian Klass is the author of Fluke, Chance, Chaos 0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:29.480 and Why Everything We Do Matters. Welcome back to Fast 0:36:29.520 --> 0:36:30.760 Politics Behind Class. 0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:32.160 Thanks for having on the show again. 0:36:32.400 --> 0:36:36.160 Your book is called Fluke, Chance, Chaos and why everything 0:36:36.200 --> 0:36:39.200 we do matters. So explain to us a little bit 0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:42.680 about why you got here to write this book. 0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:44.719 Yeah, So there's sort of two stories. I mean, one 0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:47.319 is I think that the world works this way and 0:36:47.360 --> 0:36:51.560 it's swayed by these small shocks that have big consequences 0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:53.960 and we just pretend otherwise. So the opening story of 0:36:54.000 --> 0:36:56.520 the book is about a vacation that a couple took 0:36:56.600 --> 0:36:59.800 to Kyoto, Japan in nineteen twenty six, and the husband 0:36:59.840 --> 0:37:03.040 of the couple nineteen years later ends up as the 0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:05.880 Secretary of War for the United States, and in nineteen 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:08.279 forty five he's the chief civilian in charge of word 0:37:08.360 --> 0:37:11.360 to drop the atomic bomb, and the target committee basically 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:13.399 says they want to drop it on Kyoto, and they 0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:16.960 send it to Truman and so on, and Stimpson, because 0:37:17.000 --> 0:37:18.839 he is the husband of this couple that went there 0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:21.080 in nineteen twenty six, because he has a soft spot 0:37:21.120 --> 0:37:23.239 for the city, he twice meets with Truman and gets 0:37:23.239 --> 0:37:25.280 it taken off the list. And so the first atomic 0:37:25.320 --> 0:37:28.680 bomb dropped on Hiroshima purely because an American government official 0:37:28.719 --> 0:37:31.840 went on holiday nineteen years earlier to Kyoto and decided 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:33.719 he didn't want the city destroyed. So, you know, I 0:37:33.760 --> 0:37:36.200 think as a political scientist, there's as bad aspect, which 0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:38.480 is like the world does shift this way on a 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:41.200 personal level. The sort of origin story of the book 0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:44.359 is that there's a story from my family history where 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:47.640 a woman in nineteen oh five in rural Wisconsin had 0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:51.040 a mental breakdown and tragically decided to kill her four 0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:54.200 children and then kill herself. And her husband came home 0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:56.560 and found the whole family dead. And this is my 0:37:56.719 --> 0:38:00.040 great grandfather and his first wife. He remarried to my 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:02.719 great grandmother. And the only reason I exist is because 0:38:02.760 --> 0:38:04.960 of this mass murder. So I feel like a cosmic accident, 0:38:04.960 --> 0:38:06.160 a bit of a fluke, as it were. 0:38:06.200 --> 0:38:09.520 But the Jesus, this is pretty rough. 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:09.880 No. 0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:12.320 But the really strange thing about this is like, you know, Molly, 0:38:12.600 --> 0:38:15.319 like we wouldn't be talking if these kids didn't get killed, right, 0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:17.200 And I think like that's the thing that we ignore, 0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:20.480 Like there's all these ripple effects in politics, in society 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:22.319 and in our own lives, which is why I talk 0:38:22.360 --> 0:38:24.359 about chaos theory in the book a lot. But it's like, 0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:26.560 you know, when we tell the stories of politics when 0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:28.560 we go on MSNBC, as both of us do, to 0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:32.279 explain politics, like it's always big reasons for big events, right, 0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:34.480 And I think there's a lot of ripple effects that 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:36.640 are sort of lurking there that explain the world better 0:38:36.760 --> 0:38:40.280 often than the sort of obvious variables. Because you wouldn't 0:38:40.280 --> 0:38:42.879 imagine that the vacation history of a government official would 0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:44.839 cause the atomic bomb to land on one city rather 0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:45.320 than another. 0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:49.240 Yeah, I mean for sure, true, and I think important. 0:38:49.320 --> 0:38:51.839 So we look at right now, I mean I guess yeah, 0:38:51.880 --> 0:38:55.319 you could say like the World War one, right, was 0:38:55.360 --> 0:38:59.399 started by a fluke, right archduke, world War two? Right? 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:02.480 I mean there are there are all these different things 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:06.400 that are started. You know, we don't know what things 0:39:06.440 --> 0:39:11.120 will lead to. It's interesting. So now when we look 0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:15.320 at Trump and trump Ism, do we see that there's 0:39:15.680 --> 0:39:17.799 like it doesn't feel like a fluke led us to 0:39:17.840 --> 0:39:22.680 trump Ism as much as just like a continual hostility 0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:26.200 of a group of people who liked Trump's racism and 0:39:26.239 --> 0:39:27.480 economic populism. 0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:29.839 I think there are flukes that we can see very 0:39:29.840 --> 0:39:32.280 clearly with Trump, though, I mean one of them. For example, 0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:35.560 is there speculation that he decided to run for president 0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:38.280 in twenty eleven when the White House correspondence dinner happened. 0:39:38.560 --> 0:39:41.640 I knew you were going to say that when Obama 0:39:41.719 --> 0:39:43.360 was making those jokes. 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:45.920 Right, yeah, and Obama humiliated him. You know what this 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:48.120 is true or not, I don't know, but that's one possibility. 0:39:48.120 --> 0:39:49.800 So maybe he doesn't run. Then you get to the 0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:51.920 twenty sixteen election. Right, You've got like, you know, seventy 0:39:51.960 --> 0:39:54.720 eighty thousand votes that decide the race in three states. 0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:58.360 And part of the reason why the FBI investigation is 0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:01.400 reopened is because of Anthony Wiener. If this doesn't happen, 0:40:01.440 --> 0:40:04.280 maybe Komi doesn't make his statement, maybe Clinton narrowly wins, 0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:06.959 and then we have a totally different narrative, right because 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:10.120 like Brexit then becomes the outlier of populism and it's 0:40:10.160 --> 0:40:12.000 like the high water mark of it, and we say, oh, well, 0:40:12.000 --> 0:40:14.640 but then Clinton wins is like the establishment figures maybe 0:40:14.640 --> 0:40:17.120 populism is dead. I mean, there's all these things where 0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:21.440 a lot of things pivot on very small, narrow outcomes, 0:40:21.680 --> 0:40:23.440 and you know, there's some really strange stuff too. I 0:40:23.480 --> 0:40:24.880 talk about this in the book briefly, and it's a 0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:26.239 little bit in the weeds. But if you look at 0:40:26.280 --> 0:40:29.720 the twenty twenty election results, there's this little swoop across Georgia, 0:40:29.800 --> 0:40:33.120 this blue swoop in the counties where Biden basically racks 0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:35.920 up enough votes to win. And also the Democrats end 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:38.480 up winning in Georgia in the Senate and control the Senate. 0:40:38.600 --> 0:40:40.760 That crescent shape that if you look up the county 0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:43.840 level election results, it is literally caused by an ancient 0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:47.040 inland sea at the time of the dinosaurs, because there 0:40:47.080 --> 0:40:49.759 was fhytoplankton that lived there and they died and became 0:40:49.840 --> 0:40:53.399 really rich soil. So when slavery was established, they put 0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:56.040 all the plantations on this swoop and then all of 0:40:56.080 --> 0:40:58.440 the enslaved people were brought there and then they were 0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:01.320 freed and they stayed there. And this is where a 0:41:01.320 --> 0:41:03.840 lot of the black population in Georgia lives that votes Democrat. 0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:06.160 So you know, I mean, there's all these things where 0:41:06.200 --> 0:41:08.200 if you take the long sweep of history, yeah, you 0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:10.839 can see geological contingencies and so on, but there's also 0:41:10.920 --> 0:41:13.040 aspects about you know, I think what we do as 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:16.680 pundits or analysts is we stitch history backwards. So like 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:19.600 something happens like oh, this was inevitable. Trump was always 0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:21.759 going to rise because of these undercurrents. But if he'd 0:41:21.800 --> 0:41:24.520 lost in twenty sixteen, there would have a really different America, 0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:27.560 I think, And so you know, there could have been 0:41:27.640 --> 0:41:29.920 this this backlash to Trump is in this sort of 0:41:30.080 --> 0:41:33.239 condemnation in the Republican Party saying, oh, well, he was 0:41:33.239 --> 0:41:35.560 never going to win anyway, and then maybe the party 0:41:35.600 --> 0:41:38.960 isn't authoritarian and overly racist, right, So you know, I 0:41:38.960 --> 0:41:41.320 think there's a lot of these moments in history where 0:41:41.480 --> 0:41:43.880 it could have pivoted slightly differently. And that's, you know, 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:45.799 not to mention the fact that Trump was sort of 0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:48.520 made into this kingpin, celebrity apprentice guy when actually he. 0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:49.200 Was a business failure. 0:41:49.239 --> 0:41:51.920 If somebody they picked somebody else, maybe he doesn't rise, 0:41:52.040 --> 0:41:54.399 you know. So I think basically what happens is when 0:41:54.400 --> 0:41:56.880 you try to make sense of politics, you are told 0:41:56.960 --> 0:41:59.560 to look for big causes for big effects that are 0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:02.200 really oppos and I think that when you look in 0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:05.400 detail at history, that very quickly falls apart. As we 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:06.960 all know in our own lives, right, and we've seen 0:42:07.000 --> 0:42:10.960 all these little happenstance moments. I think the really bewildering 0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:12.839 thing is the stuff that we don't ever see, right, 0:42:12.840 --> 0:42:14.720 like the stuff in our lives, like the sliding doors 0:42:15.160 --> 0:42:17.600 sort of moments where or you hit the snooze button 0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:20.000 and your life might unfold slightly differently. You can only 0:42:20.000 --> 0:42:21.640 observe the life you live. And I think that's true 0:42:21.680 --> 0:42:22.640 for politics as well. 0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:28.000 Yeah, it's super interesting. And yeah for exit, yeah, I 0:42:28.040 --> 0:42:31.400 wonder about that too. And Trump, you know, he did 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:37.560 manage to the electoral college itself feels very flugish because 0:42:37.600 --> 0:42:39.960 we've now seen this happen a bunch of times where 0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:43.200 a candidate has won the electoral college and lost the 0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:46.400 popular vote and gone on to be president, which is 0:42:46.640 --> 0:42:50.399 just completely strange. The fluke thing I always think about 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:52.839 is like, this is so sick. But I think, what 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:56.200 if Mitt Romney had won. I didn't like Mitt Romney 0:42:56.400 --> 0:42:59.760 at the time, but now I think, like Mitt Romney 0:42:59.800 --> 0:43:03.280 had president, perhaps you know that the Republican Party wouldn't 0:43:03.280 --> 0:43:04.320 have lost its mind. 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:06.680 Yeah, so you know, I think I think that's definitely 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:09.000 a fair counterfactual to consider. And he probably if he'd won, 0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:11.400 he would have been the nominee in twenty sixteen almost certainly, right, 0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:13.560 So then that would have knocked out Trump in twenty sixteen. 0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:15.440 I think what's really striking if you look at the 0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:18.560 twenty first century, though, is that our politics and our 0:43:18.640 --> 0:43:21.839 lives have been just like walloped over and over and 0:43:21.840 --> 0:43:24.239 over by these shocks, right, Like you look at the 0:43:24.239 --> 0:43:26.360 twenty first centuries nine to eleven, the Iraq War, the 0:43:26.400 --> 0:43:29.840 financial crisis, the Arab Spring, which was started by literally 0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:32.440 lighting himself on fire in central Tunisia. Then you have 0:43:32.760 --> 0:43:35.880 you know, Brexit Trump, the pandemic started by a mutated 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:38.759 virus infecting one person in China, and then you have 0:43:38.920 --> 0:43:40.680 you know, Gaza and Ukraine and so on and sort 0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:43.759 of these constant upheavals. And I think the thing that 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:45.640 you know, I argue in Fluke as well, is that 0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:48.920 we've engineered a system that's that's really prone to this, right, 0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:52.080 because we've set up systems where like the world operates 0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:54.160 with no slack. Probably the best example this was a 0:43:54.200 --> 0:43:56.960 couple of years ago when a gust of wind hit 0:43:57.000 --> 0:44:00.480 a boat in the Suez Canal and twisted sideways, you know, 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:03.799 wiped out fifty four billion dollars of economic output. And 0:44:03.840 --> 0:44:05.960 it's like, you know, from like one boat, you know, 0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:07.520 So I think I think this stuff like you know, 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:11.360 Trump's presidency also pivots to a large degree on COVID 0:44:11.560 --> 0:44:13.319 or January sixth. You know what, if they had taken 0:44:13.360 --> 0:44:15.440 it a bit more seriously and had sort of broken 0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:17.759 it up, or they didn't allow the protest movement to 0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:20.000 even get started or whatever, or if January sixth, there's 0:44:20.000 --> 0:44:22.239 a great contingency here where the guys with the zip 0:44:22.280 --> 0:44:25.200 ties they get really close. Let's imagine they actually get 0:44:25.239 --> 0:44:28.040 somebody who's in Congress or in the Senate and kill them. 0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:30.400 Does that mean that Trump can rebound the way he 0:44:30.480 --> 0:44:33.520 has in twenty twenty four, I mean maybe, but maybe 0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:35.160 not right. So, I think this is all these things 0:44:35.160 --> 0:44:38.160 where these split second changes or small changes Anthony Wiener's 0:44:38.160 --> 0:44:41.480 celfo or a joke about you know Trump in twenty eleven. 0:44:41.480 --> 0:44:43.480 I think we just write that out as noise, and 0:44:43.600 --> 0:44:45.920 the wisdom, the received wisdom you get is like, you know, 0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:48.239 ignore the noise, focus on the signal. And I'm not 0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:49.719 sure that's a good idea. I think there's a lot 0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:51.680 of stuff in our politics that is swayed by noise. 0:44:51.880 --> 0:44:55.040 Yeah, I'm in for sure. I think that last statement 0:44:55.120 --> 0:44:57.239 that there's a lot of stuff in our politics that's 0:44:57.280 --> 0:45:01.000 swayed by noise is for sure, Troe. So let's talk 0:45:01.040 --> 0:45:04.680 about that noise right now. There's a lot of anxiety. 0:45:05.320 --> 0:45:08.960 My personal anxiety is that I am missing stories, that 0:45:09.160 --> 0:45:12.239 I am missing part of the world because I am 0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:14.880 not getting the news that everybody else is, or I'm 0:45:14.880 --> 0:45:17.400 not getting enough of it. It's kind of nots but 0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:20.720 I have a lot of anxiety about the siloed nature 0:45:20.920 --> 0:45:23.360 of the world. Now, Am I right? Am I wrong? 0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:24.839 I mean, talk to me about that. 0:45:25.120 --> 0:45:27.880 One of the biggest problems that we've embedded into American 0:45:27.880 --> 0:45:32.000 politics is that we have totally different information pipelines depending 0:45:32.000 --> 0:45:34.480 on who we are, right, And like, I think this 0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:37.200 is where the United States has a totally broken system 0:45:37.239 --> 0:45:40.239 that is going to have generational consequences, not just trump Ism, 0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:43.360 but that will outlast Trump probably. And it's something you know, 0:45:43.400 --> 0:45:45.839 I can say, as you know, I live in the UK, 0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:47.759 I come back to the US every so often. I 0:45:47.800 --> 0:45:51.200 flip on you know, Fox News and Newsmax to see 0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:54.000 what's going on. There's just nothing like that in the 0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:56.719 developed democracies and the rest of the world. And the 0:45:56.760 --> 0:45:59.600 sort of propaganda that does exist on the airwaves in 0:45:59.600 --> 0:46:01.600 the United States is something that I think has also 0:46:01.640 --> 0:46:04.160 embedded risk in this because you think about like QAnon, 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:08.040 for example, and fifty percent of American Republicans now say 0:46:08.040 --> 0:46:10.879 that they believe at least one plank of QAnon. I mean, 0:46:10.920 --> 0:46:13.880 one of those people is going to do something really crazy, 0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:15.160 and some of them already have. 0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:15.440 Right. 0:46:15.440 --> 0:46:17.000 A guy tried to like blow up the Hoover dam 0:46:17.000 --> 0:46:20.120 at one point and thankfully didn't succeed based on QAnon belief. 0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:22.520 Not to mention the Pizzagate incidenta the guy tried to 0:46:22.520 --> 0:46:24.480 shoot up the pizza joint, Right, So there's I think 0:46:24.480 --> 0:46:27.480 there's all these things where like we have this illusion 0:46:27.520 --> 0:46:30.880 of order because we've avoided some of the catastrophes that 0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:32.840 could have happened. But you know, I think some of 0:46:32.880 --> 0:46:34.440 that's luck. I think some of that is just like 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:37.680 all the ingredients are there, we've sort of designed a tinderbox, 0:46:37.920 --> 0:46:40.160 and then we're just hoping a spark doesn't fly. And 0:46:40.239 --> 0:46:42.000 I think, you know, this is the stuff where what 0:46:42.080 --> 0:46:44.680 I'm talking about with this sort of design of systems 0:46:44.680 --> 0:46:46.719 and the proneness to flukes today is like, you know, 0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:50.200 the Arab spring was a place where everybody was on edge. 0:46:50.239 --> 0:46:52.319 I mean, all the people were restless and angry about 0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:54.640 the dictatorships. One guy lights himself on fire, and all 0:46:54.640 --> 0:46:56.040 of a sudden, you have a civil war in Syria 0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:59.120 with hundreds of thousands of people dying, multiple regimes collapse. 0:46:59.360 --> 0:47:01.200 And so my point is that, like you know, I 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:03.440 think we've set up these systems that are just super 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:06.360 super prone to shocks, and the mistake we make is 0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:09.000 imagining they're like an outlier that's some weird thing that 0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:11.920 we couldn't have foreseen. I think we've designed systems that 0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:14.440 when the noise of life gets into the system, it 0:47:14.440 --> 0:47:17.799 actually creates these massive consequences. So, you know, that is 0:47:17.840 --> 0:47:19.960 something I worry about. The information pipelines is one that 0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:22.640 amplifies it. And I think you're right to worry that 0:47:22.719 --> 0:47:25.239 we all get a little slice of reality because we 0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:26.960 exist in information bubbles. 0:47:27.160 --> 0:47:30.279 Yeah, when you got back to America this time, we 0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:33.040 had dinner and we were chatting, and you said that 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:36.560 you felt like America was a little bit scarier even 0:47:36.600 --> 0:47:38.640 than it had been a couple of years ago when 0:47:38.680 --> 0:47:41.080 you were here the last time. Can you talk about that. 0:47:41.560 --> 0:47:43.920 Yeah, I mean, you know, it's something that's really striking. 0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:47.520 I've lived abroad for almost thirteen years now, and every 0:47:47.560 --> 0:47:49.520 time I go home, which is multiple times a year, 0:47:50.080 --> 0:47:52.360 I'm just struck by social dysfunction in a way that 0:47:52.440 --> 0:47:54.759 is totally alien in many parts of Europe. It's not 0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:58.239 Europe or Britain is like some paragon of good governance. Obviously, Like, 0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:00.440 you know, things are messed up really bad here. 0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:03.799 Now you have bracs At, you have Richie Sudac, We 0:48:03.880 --> 0:48:06.640 often have Ian Dunstan here to tell us just about 0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:07.759 how fucked up you guys are. 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:10.440 But yes, continue, yeah, so there are there are problems, 0:48:10.440 --> 0:48:11.960 but like you know, I mean, the way I always 0:48:11.960 --> 0:48:16.600 explains to people is the British version of Anthony Fauci 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:19.640 is named Chris Whitty, and he's like universally regarded as 0:48:19.640 --> 0:48:22.880 a hero. In the UK, almost everybody got vaccinated and 0:48:22.920 --> 0:48:24.360 just sort of followed the rules. We like had this 0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:26.600 tradition where everyone went out on their doorsteps and clapped 0:48:26.600 --> 0:48:27.479 for the nurses for. 0:48:27.400 --> 0:48:29.000 Like months, right, yeah. 0:48:29.040 --> 0:48:30.879 Now, I went home to the US in like twenty 0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:33.440 twenty one, and it was like this extreme polarization where 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:35.920 you could see whether someone is a Democrat or Republican 0:48:35.960 --> 0:48:37.920 based on whether they were wearing a mask and then 0:48:37.960 --> 0:48:40.520 also like Anthony Fauci is like at credible risk of 0:48:40.520 --> 0:48:43.080 being murdered, and you know, these are like little canaries 0:48:43.080 --> 0:48:44.520 in the coal mine. But it's also like just the 0:48:44.600 --> 0:48:48.440 visibility of partisanship where you know, you have these flags 0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:52.040 everywhere of you know, Trump or also all sorts of 0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:54.640 things where everything about like a lot of people's lives 0:48:54.680 --> 0:48:58.279 is sort of their identity is fused with partisanship, and 0:48:58.280 --> 0:49:00.520 it's just an it's like an angrier culture sure than 0:49:00.560 --> 0:49:02.200 what I'm used to in the UK. So you know, 0:49:02.280 --> 0:49:04.240 I do worry about that because it's long term stuff. 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:06.160 I mean, this is not just like you know, Trump 0:49:06.200 --> 0:49:08.080 goes away and then everything's fine. I think there's sort 0:49:08.080 --> 0:49:11.080 of a like a vitriol in American politics, an undercurrent 0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:14.480 of violence that is just so not in many parts 0:49:14.480 --> 0:49:16.120 of other rich democracies in the world. 0:49:16.160 --> 0:49:20.480 Basically quite actually quite scary in my mind. I mean, 0:49:21.000 --> 0:49:23.560 I mean, is Fox News to blame or is it 0:49:23.640 --> 0:49:28.640 this sort of right wing media eco system. 0:49:29.080 --> 0:49:31.919 I mean, I think it's a combination of right wing 0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:37.040 media and politicians who effectively inside violence. I mean, this 0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:40.799 is the big difference, right, Like there's decorum in politics 0:49:41.000 --> 0:49:43.680 in the UK not perfect. Boris Johnson broke a lot 0:49:43.680 --> 0:49:46.160 of rules. But if Boris Johnson said that, you know, 0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:49.200 the top general in the UK maybe should be killed 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:51.640 for treason like Trump did with Mark Milly, it would 0:49:51.640 --> 0:49:53.200 not just be the end of his political career, he 0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:55.880 would be shunned by every single politician in his own party. 0:49:55.960 --> 0:49:57.600 And I think this is the sort of stuff where 0:49:57.640 --> 0:49:59.520 like you just don't see it because it's like, you know, 0:49:59.520 --> 0:50:02.360 it's the terrible of the frog boiling or whatever in 0:50:02.400 --> 0:50:04.200 the boiling water. It's like, I think a lot of 0:50:04.239 --> 0:50:06.879 Americans are just like numbed to the fact that it's 0:50:06.920 --> 0:50:08.920 gotten so insane. I mean, I look at this stuff 0:50:08.960 --> 0:50:12.200 from over here and there's just a constant stream of 0:50:12.320 --> 0:50:15.719 the most insane stories and the most insane rhetoric, and 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:19.279 you know, it's just beyond any sort of discourse that 0:50:19.320 --> 0:50:21.839 exists in the UK. And I'm not trying to pump 0:50:21.920 --> 0:50:23.400 up the UK too much because I say there's a 0:50:23.440 --> 0:50:25.719 lot of problems, but like I mean, Boris Johnson got 0:50:25.840 --> 0:50:28.520 knocked out office because he had some people over during 0:50:28.640 --> 0:50:32.440 COVID and Liz Trusts, you know, when she tanked the economy, 0:50:32.600 --> 0:50:34.840 she had a nine percent I mean, she had a 0:50:34.880 --> 0:50:37.399 nine percent approval radium was ousted in forty nine days. 0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:39.239 I mean, Trump has had a forty percent approval rating 0:50:39.280 --> 0:50:42.760 since twenty sixteen. Right, It's like nothing he does matters 0:50:43.000 --> 0:50:45.000 in terms of his approval. So, you know, I am 0:50:45.040 --> 0:50:47.239 worried about that. Where like people don't change their minds 0:50:47.280 --> 0:50:50.160 in the US, and the vitriol is so extreme, and 0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:54.239 the sort of toxic environment of right wing cable news 0:50:54.320 --> 0:50:57.239 and so on and propaganda lets along with this sort 0:50:57.239 --> 0:51:01.440 of vile rhetoric of Republicans calling for violence, that's this. 0:51:01.880 --> 0:51:04.239 It's a cocktail made for political violence. And I think 0:51:04.280 --> 0:51:06.640 that as someone who studies political violence is part of 0:51:06.680 --> 0:51:10.439 my job, my diagnosis of why there hasn't been worse 0:51:10.520 --> 0:51:12.600 violence is that we are lucky. 0:51:13.280 --> 0:51:16.080 Yeah, that doesn't make me feel better. 0:51:15.960 --> 0:51:17.759 No, I know, I mean, but this is this is 0:51:17.760 --> 0:51:19.480 my honest assessment. Like I think, I think we have 0:51:19.680 --> 0:51:23.080 every single ingredient for like severe political violence and assassinations 0:51:23.080 --> 0:51:25.160 and so on. I'm surprised that hasn't happened. I hope 0:51:25.200 --> 0:51:27.520 it never happens. I hope that this is something where 0:51:27.520 --> 0:51:30.040 I'm completely wrong about it. But we have politicians stoking 0:51:30.080 --> 0:51:33.719 hatred you have extreme media polarization where people don't even 0:51:33.760 --> 0:51:36.560 agree on reality anymore. You have four hundred million guns 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:39.040 for a population of three hundred and thirty million people. 0:51:39.160 --> 0:51:41.920 I mean, you have this rhetoric that says that Democrats 0:51:41.960 --> 0:51:44.960 are communists who are trying to basically kidnap your children 0:51:45.000 --> 0:51:47.799 if you're a que non believer, for sexual gratification, or 0:51:48.239 --> 0:51:50.720 just that they're trying to destroy America because they believe 0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:53.319 that China is, like you know, better than you know, 0:51:53.360 --> 0:51:56.160 the best thing since fly spread. Those delusions are ones 0:51:56.200 --> 0:51:58.920 that cause people to act, and so, you know, bringing 0:51:58.960 --> 0:52:01.279 it back to that sense of the flukes and the contingencies, 0:52:01.320 --> 0:52:03.600 I think we're just sort of in that tinderbox moment, 0:52:03.800 --> 0:52:05.840 and I'm really worried about how twenty twenty four is 0:52:05.840 --> 0:52:07.560 going to play out. I know it's not comforting, but 0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:10.759 it is something where the dynamics are so dysfunctional. I'm 0:52:10.840 --> 0:52:13.640 frankly surprised that there hasn't been worse violence in the 0:52:13.760 --> 0:52:16.120 United States. So I would be shocked if twenty twenty 0:52:16.160 --> 0:52:18.160 four unfold without any political violence. 0:52:18.320 --> 0:52:20.839 Well, that was really upsetting. Tell us how we put 0:52:20.840 --> 0:52:22.200 the genie back on the bottle. 0:52:22.400 --> 0:52:25.239 The number one thing is electoral defeat. Eventually, this will 0:52:25.280 --> 0:52:28.040 focus the mind of Republicans and it's what needs to happen. 0:52:28.200 --> 0:52:31.160 It hasn't happened throughout these last several electoral defeats, but 0:52:31.200 --> 0:52:34.160 I think that like a resounding rejection of the sort 0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:37.680 of extremism, violent rhetoric and trump Ism is the first 0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:40.279 step to getting the party, the Republican Party, back from 0:52:40.280 --> 0:52:43.680 the brink of this like full on embrace of authoritary 0:52:43.719 --> 0:52:46.840 and violent extremism and barring that, I really worry about it. 0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:48.759 So I think there's a way that this can happen. 0:52:48.800 --> 0:52:51.080 I think it's why everyone's actions in twenty twenty four 0:52:51.120 --> 0:52:54.000 are so important, because this is the most important election 0:52:54.040 --> 0:52:56.600 I think in modern history, and the effects of it 0:52:56.640 --> 0:53:00.160 could be very positive if the outcome is resounding, and 0:53:00.320 --> 0:53:02.160 it could be so, you know, my hope is that 0:53:02.200 --> 0:53:04.120 there will be a resounding rejection of this and it 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:07.360 will start to dial back this rhetoric and make consequences 0:53:07.360 --> 0:53:10.280 for those who embrace the sort of rhetoric of violence. 0:53:10.480 --> 0:53:18.320 Thanks Brian, There no moment full Jesse Cannon. 0:53:18.560 --> 0:53:23.880 Uh oh, Molly, I'm feeling vibes. I think they're impeach 0:53:24.360 --> 0:53:27.480 bit whoa this is strange. I'm feeling vibes. What do 0:53:27.480 --> 0:53:28.440 you What do you feel about here? 0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:33.319 It's a vibes based impeachment. Just like in succession. We 0:53:33.440 --> 0:53:37.480 can agree these are not here as people. The Republicans 0:53:37.480 --> 0:53:41.360 in the House of Representatives, fresh off trying to impeach 0:53:41.440 --> 0:53:45.080 Joe Biden non vibes, have moved on to impeach Alejandro 0:53:45.200 --> 0:53:49.520 myiorcis on vibes. Let me just say two things here. 0:53:49.920 --> 0:53:53.280 You cannot impeach someone because you don't like them. That's 0:53:53.320 --> 0:53:56.960 not how any of this works. They had a conservative lawyer, 0:53:57.160 --> 0:54:00.840 Jonathan Turley, who said, you can't impeach people people for 0:54:01.320 --> 0:54:04.000 not liking how they're doing their job. It has to 0:54:04.040 --> 0:54:09.320 actually be an impeachable event. But God forbid Republicans ever 0:54:09.840 --> 0:54:13.319 do anything that makes any sense, and for that they 0:54:13.360 --> 0:54:18.719 feature prominently House Republicans. Yet again, are our moment of 0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:23.160 fuck Gray. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. 0:54:23.520 --> 0:54:26.440 Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the 0:54:26.480 --> 0:54:29.920 best minds in politics make sense of all this chaos. 0:54:30.200 --> 0:54:32.759 If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to 0:54:32.800 --> 0:54:36.200 a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:36.840 for listening.