Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today's episode is with the USGAS Senior Managing Director of Governance,
Speaker 1: Thomas Pagel. You're probably wondering who Thomas Pagel is. You
Speaker 1: probably remember them from Rules and Rulings and such and
Speaker 1: us opens of past. Thomas also runs the Distance Insights
Speaker 1: Project at the USGA, and with last week's big announcement,
Speaker 1: we wanted to have a bond to talk about its
Speaker 1: near and long term implications on golf. For those of
Speaker 1: you that might not know what Distance Insights Project is,
Speaker 1: it centers around the golf ball equipment and where the
Speaker 1: game's going and whether or not the current regulation on
Speaker 1: different aspects of equipment needs to be recalibrated. So obviously
Speaker 1: a major implications in terms of what professional golf might
Speaker 1: look like and even what golf at the local level
Speaker 1: might look like. I really appreciate Thomas coming on to talk.
Speaker 1: I know he's a busy guy and obviously had a
Speaker 1: lot of things going on last week, so we were
Speaker 1: glad we could get this, uh get him on this
Speaker 1: week and to discuss the ins and outs of the report,
Speaker 1: the next steps and just the different layers of the
Speaker 1: project and kind of addressing all aspects of it. So,
Speaker 1: without further ado, here is Thomas Pagel I.
Speaker 2: Miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I
Speaker 2: find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And
Speaker 2: when I find my.
Speaker 3: Ball in a bright egg Friday egg and dreaded Frida
Speaker 3: egg Frida egg frid egg egg Frida egg bride egg lie,
Speaker 3: I'm about ready to run off of the.
Speaker 2: Stops.
Speaker 4: Get right into it.
Speaker 1: Your team obviously made a huge announcement last week. What
Speaker 1: did golf fans in general need to know about last
Speaker 1: week's announcement?
Speaker 2: Yeah, last week's announcement was really picking up where we
Speaker 2: left things off in late February of twenty twenty, so
Speaker 2: you're recall February twenty twenty, we released the Distance Insights Report,
Speaker 2: which was our comprehensive study with our partners at the
Speaker 2: RNA talking about distance, looking at the history of distance,
Speaker 2: understanding trends, what it might mean for the future of
Speaker 2: the game, and ultimately we concluded that we think the
Speaker 2: cycle of increased hitting length, increased course course lengthening is
Speaker 2: not good for the game and that we need to
Speaker 2: know it has to come to an end. In that document,
Speaker 2: we endeavored to release what we call an area of
Speaker 2: interest to the equipment manufacturers, talking about the areas we
Speaker 2: want to study. We were scheduled to release that the
Speaker 2: Monday or Tuesday after the Player's Chance and Chip. As
Speaker 2: you can recall, Thursday evening in Ponavidra, everything shut down
Speaker 2: and the golf world followed closely thereafter. So we made
Speaker 2: the decision to go ahead and hold on releasing the
Speaker 2: area of interest, knowing that the equipment manufacturers we're going
Speaker 2: to have to deal with the entire industry, frankly was
Speaker 2: going to have to deal with so much related to
Speaker 2: the pandemic, and it wasn't the right time to engage
Speaker 2: and continue into engineering or scientific discussion around you know,
Speaker 2: attributes of a golf baller clubhead, right, So we put
Speaker 2: everything on pause for twenty and then as we came
Speaker 2: into this year, obviously golf is in a good place,
Speaker 2: had a strong year even with the pandemic. Manufacturers are
Speaker 2: still having issues, right, Like, let's be clear, I know
Speaker 2: I talked to them, I hear of supply chain issues,
Speaker 2: all sorts of things. However, we felt the time was
Speaker 2: appropriate to re engage on the topic of distance to
Speaker 2: really kick things off, because this is just the beginning,
Speaker 2: This is the beginning of a long journey. So last
Speaker 2: week we released the Area of Interest, which has, you know,
Speaker 2: the six categories or six general categories of research that
Speaker 2: we're interested in under taking over the course of the
Speaker 2: next year. And then we also release what we call
Speaker 2: a Notice of proposed rule changes to Equipment Manufacturers, which
Speaker 2: is really outside of Distance Insights, but it highlighted a
Speaker 2: few equipment changes that we're proposing here in the near term.
Speaker 4: With those that year kind of break.
Speaker 1: I imagined you were watching golf, did anything, did any of
Speaker 1: the areas of interest change? Did an emphasis on anything change?
Speaker 1: Or did any rule these rules that you're looking to
Speaker 1: implement come about because of the last year?
Speaker 2: You know. We So while our public facing side of
Speaker 2: things certainly was on pause last year, our team, our
Speaker 2: equipment standards team, which are brilliant scientists and engineers, continued
Speaker 2: on with a lot of their research and their day
Speaker 2: to day operations with testing clubs and evaluating our testing
Speaker 2: standards and everything else we look at as a team.
Speaker 2: And so from from the area of interest to six
Speaker 2: categories that didn't really expand. In fact, The document that
Speaker 2: was released last week is largely the document that was
Speaker 2: going to be released in March of twenty twenty. We
Speaker 2: made a couple edits to date, so it was more timely,
Speaker 2: but outside of that, it was really consistent. When we
Speaker 2: look at the notice for proposed changes, you know, we
Speaker 2: did have the benefit of the last year or to
Speaker 2: look at our testing standards, and so when we look at,
Speaker 2: you know, testing a golf ball in an optimized fashion,
Speaker 2: we had the ability to evaluate over the last year
Speaker 2: and make a determination that it was right to propose
Speaker 2: a change to that standard. Same thing with the CT tolerance, right,
Speaker 2: the characteristic time, so measuring the time that a golf
Speaker 2: ball makes impact with the club face, so essentially you're
Speaker 2: measuring trampoline effect. That has carried a historical tolerance of
Speaker 2: eighteen microseconds. Not to get into the nerd weeds, but
Speaker 2: manufacturers are so good with their capabilities and our testing capabilities, frankly,
Speaker 2: have become so much better that that eighteen microsecond tolerance
Speaker 2: is no longer necessary. Right, we can take it down
Speaker 2: to six. Manufacturers can companibly produce within a six microsecond tolerance,
Speaker 2: We can test within that tolerance, and so we felt
Speaker 2: that was appropriate. But you know a lot of people say, well,
Speaker 2: you're not taking distance away with that. We get it, like, look,
Speaker 2: measuring eighteen microseconds, you're talking a yard. Maybe these changes
Speaker 2: are not about reducing distances. It's about modernizing our standards
Speaker 2: and it's frankly part of the day to day responsibility
Speaker 2: that we have in serving that role of testing equipment
Speaker 2: for the game, you know. And then the last proposed
Speaker 2: changing any that I know a lot of folks have
Speaker 2: talked about is the shaft length and the reduction and
Speaker 2: shaft link by model Local rule from forty eight inches
Speaker 2: to forty six inches. This is something we've talked about
Speaker 2: for a while, right, We've we've been looking at this
Speaker 2: since twenty fourteen, so you know, as Bryson's you know,
Speaker 2: winning at the amateur level before anybody, before it became
Speaker 2: really a household name, we were looking at shaft length.
Speaker 2: So this is not a reaction to what we saw
Speaker 2: in the last year. However, you know, given the history
Speaker 2: of that and we nearly proposed a rule change in
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, we thought the time was right to issue
Speaker 2: the model local rule now because look, as more and
Speaker 2: more players begin to experiment at all levels of the game.
Speaker 2: It only makes change that much harder in the future.
Speaker 2: And so as we look out to the future, if
Speaker 2: we think forty six inches is the right number, we
Speaker 2: just thought it was best to go ahead and issue
Speaker 2: that now, as opposed to waiting for rule changes down
Speaker 2: the line, because you know, I sort of liken it
Speaker 2: to anchoring. You know, a long history of allowing players
Speaker 2: to anchor the club and then the change became hard.
Speaker 2: We didn't want to experience that again.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: It's getting in a way out in front of it before.
Speaker 1: You know, obviously two years ago, twenty eighteen, nobody was
Speaker 1: really talking about using a forty seven forty eight inch driver,
Speaker 1: and now all of a sudden you started to see
Speaker 1: not just Bryson, you know dozens of pros I know,
Speaker 1: at least experiment we're playing around with it at their
Speaker 1: Hope course and you know player, So that makes sense.
Speaker 1: From with the six areas of interest, could you just
Speaker 1: outline those areas for the audience that may not have
Speaker 1: dove in and read the entire report what those are
Speaker 1: and kind of layman's terms, what they mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the good news is I'm not an engineer, so
Speaker 2: this will all come across in layman's terms. Right, So
Speaker 2: the general areas we talk about, you know, a reductional
Speaker 2: limit within the overall distance standard. And so right now
Speaker 2: we have a standard of three hundred and seventeen yards
Speaker 2: plus the tolerance of three yards to measure both the
Speaker 2: carry but then also the bounce and roll of a
Speaker 2: golf ball, and so is as golf balls are submitted
Speaker 2: for conformance, we test them under certain standards with launch
Speaker 2: and spin rates, and then wherever they end up, we
Speaker 2: just say it needs to be less than three hundred
Speaker 2: and seventeen yards. So we need to evaluate that three
Speaker 2: seventeen and determine is that the right number? Should that
Speaker 2: number be lesser. I'll preface all this by saying, you know,
Speaker 2: we don't have the answers, we don't have the solutions.
Speaker 2: This is really early in the stage where we're just choreographing.
Speaker 2: Here's what we'd like to look at. We want to
Speaker 2: engage with the industry around these topics. We have research,
Speaker 2: We know the manufacturers have research, and in the end
Speaker 2: we want to try and identify solutions that are about
Speaker 2: the long term best interest or health of the game.
Speaker 2: And so as I go through these, again no solutions
Speaker 2: have been reaches or just general topics. The next one
Speaker 2: is a modification on the limitation of ball efficiency. So
Speaker 2: again it's just testing standards we have on how balls fly,
Speaker 2: the aerodynamics of balls, and a review of that. Also
Speaker 2: looking at you know, size and massing of golf balls, right,
Speaker 2: So is there a way to do you look at
Speaker 2: a smaller golf ball a larger golf ball. Do you
Speaker 2: look at the density of a golf ball so that
Speaker 2: it impacts different swing speeds differently? You know a lot
Speaker 2: of different variables within a golf ball that we can
Speaker 2: look at. And then you're looking at drivers club length.
Speaker 2: So model local rule gets us to forty six inches,
Speaker 2: but maybe we do some further research and determine that
Speaker 2: forty five or forty three or forty three or forty
Speaker 2: four excuse me, is a better long term number. So
Speaker 2: we want to look at that as well as you know, massing,
Speaker 2: size of the club head, moment of inertia, right, So
Speaker 2: the forgiveness on a club face, what does that you
Speaker 2: from a strategic standpoint, if you have a high mlide,
Speaker 2: is that allowing players to swing perhaps a bit more aggressively.
Speaker 2: If you change that, MOI, does that change the need
Speaker 2: to perhaps hit a little closer to center. All things
Speaker 2: that we just need to answer as we look through.
Speaker 2: And then you know, last point is the spin right
Speaker 2: and looking at spin. This is a great example of
Speaker 2: both direct and indirect because you can look at spin
Speaker 2: in a lot of different manners. Right, you can look
Speaker 2: at spin off the driver face, you can look at
Speaker 2: spin out of the rough, you can look at the
Speaker 2: general spin coming from the golf ball. So all things
Speaker 2: we need to look at again. Some of those directly
Speaker 2: impact distance, others indirectly impact distance through either strategic choices
Speaker 2: the player might make or otherwise.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just for everybody listening, is your job, you know,
Speaker 1: in a way, you guys are putting together a study
Speaker 1: slash like an experiment really here where your job is
Speaker 1: to look at all the different angles of these in
Speaker 1: the different implications that changes would make, and determine make
Speaker 1: conclusions off of looking at all the different angles. It's
Speaker 1: not you're not going into this saying we're going to
Speaker 1: you know, limit distance.
Speaker 2: That's well, we do know that we need to stop
Speaker 2: the cycle, so some limitation on distance is necessary. But
Speaker 2: you're right, in that from an equipment standard standpoint, I
Speaker 2: always think of it in terms of levers. Right. Those
Speaker 2: six categories are broad, and within each six of those
Speaker 2: categories there are a lot of things you could potentially
Speaker 2: do or levers you could turn. And so we just
Speaker 2: want to do the research to understand the levers and
Speaker 2: understand if we turn this one to the right, you
Speaker 2: know this much, what is it going to do to
Speaker 2: other levers? Right? Because there's always impacts of other things.
Speaker 2: And then if you change two levers together, you know,
Speaker 2: what would the overall amount of reduction that you could
Speaker 2: achieve be, right, And what are the implications of that reduction?
Speaker 2: What are the implications at different swing speeds? Right, So
Speaker 2: it could impact somebody a one hundred and twenty much
Speaker 2: different than an impact somebody with a clubhead speed of
Speaker 2: ninety Likewise, Right, I think it's important that we understand
Speaker 2: the implications, you know, in the industry on the marketplace
Speaker 2: as well. Right, It's not like you can make an
Speaker 2: equipment rule change and manufacturers can retool and shift overnight.
Speaker 2: These things sort of have a runway that you have
Speaker 2: to play out, and some changes might be easier than others.
Speaker 2: So there are just a lot of factors that you
Speaker 2: have to look at as we go through this process.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for somebody that would just you know, obviously
Speaker 1: one rebut would be, oh, golf's never been better, this
Speaker 1: has been an awesome year. Why why does this? You know,
Speaker 1: why does the cycle have to stop?
Speaker 2: You know? And it's funny. This is a debate or
Speaker 2: discussion that's been happening for decades, if not centuries, around distance,
Speaker 2: and it's something that just continues to get passed down
Speaker 2: from one generation to the next. Right, And there's this
Speaker 2: belief that every generation should hit the ball further than
Speaker 2: the last, that somehow distance equals enjoyment. I'm gonna I'll
Speaker 2: sit back and say I agree, read with everything you
Speaker 2: said about the game is in a good place. Like
Speaker 2: no one should read the report or misinterpret anything we're saying.
Speaker 2: For us to be as sky is falling, the game's
Speaker 2: in a bad place, we need to come in and
Speaker 2: say it game's great. Like we rallied around as an
Speaker 2: industry last year, and it's pretty unbelievable what we are
Speaker 2: able to accomplish. Now we need to focus on retaining
Speaker 2: those golfers that came to the game last year or
Speaker 2: the lapse golfers that came back to the game. But
Speaker 2: I'd like to think that you can sort of chew
Speaker 2: them and walk at the same time. Right, what we're
Speaker 2: saying is, as we look at trends, it's obvious golfers
Speaker 2: hit the ball further now than they did ten years ago,
Speaker 2: than they did thirty years ago. And if you play
Speaker 2: that trend out, it's only going to continue. So what
Speaker 2: happens when golfers continue to increase distance, Well, venues continue
Speaker 2: to increase in length where they can. With that comes
Speaker 2: capital costs, comes, maintenance costs, come, labor costs, comes everything.
Speaker 2: Where do those costs ultimately go They get passed down
Speaker 2: to the golfer. Right. Then you also look at pace
Speaker 2: of play. You're extending the golf course, which means it's
Speaker 2: going to take longer to play. So we're looking out
Speaker 2: into the future and saying if golf, if hitting distance
Speaker 2: continue to increase, golf courses are going to continue to increase.
Speaker 2: That impacts all of us and at some point it
Speaker 2: has to stop, right, especially when you layer on top
Speaker 2: you know, the environmental sustainability and the cost frankly associated
Speaker 2: with maintaining a golf course right now, cost of water,
Speaker 2: cost of labor, cost of nutrients are all outpacing inflation,
Speaker 2: which means it's becoming more and more expensive to maintain
Speaker 2: golf courses. Again, that expense ultimately gets passed on to us.
Speaker 2: So this is it's a matter of do you continue
Speaker 2: the conversation, do you hand off this challenge to the
Speaker 2: next generation, or you try and be a bit more
Speaker 2: proactive make some changes so that when we hand the
Speaker 2: game off to the next generation, we can ensure that
Speaker 2: we're building on the strengths of today and having a
Speaker 2: healthy game into the future.
Speaker 1: And regulation is currently in place, it's not a question
Speaker 1: of whether we're regulator or not. It's a question of
Speaker 1: recalibrating what the regulation standards are.
Speaker 2: Right, That's exactly right. I mean, it's we have our
Speaker 2: equipment standards, we have the rules in place, and it's
Speaker 2: a it's a matter of looking at where where should
Speaker 2: we look to potentially sort of tighten the screws a
Speaker 2: little bit. So to speak.
Speaker 1: With the you know announcement last week, you're in a
Speaker 1: place and it outlined a twelve to eighteenth months period
Speaker 1: before we hear kind of what's next, what's the timeline
Speaker 1: involved with that period and what should we expect, what's
Speaker 1: happening behind the scenes in this period.
Speaker 2: So it is, it is. There's a lot of research
Speaker 2: that's ongoing with our folks on our equipment standards team
Speaker 2: as well as you know, our counterparts at the RNA
Speaker 2: and their equipment standards team in Saint Andrews and in
Speaker 2: that you know, uh, you know, working with manufacturers. Again,
Speaker 2: a lot of them have already done research on these topics,
Speaker 2: or a lot of them will initiate research on the topics.
Speaker 2: And this period of this area of interest is all
Speaker 2: about the exchanging of information, right Believe it or not,
Speaker 2: there is a high level of collaboration that happens within
Speaker 2: the industry. A lot of people don't like to a
Speaker 2: lot of people may not take the time to understand that.
Speaker 2: But we're working with manufacturers, you know, on a daily,
Speaker 2: weekly basis, and this will really continue that. It's just
Speaker 2: we're going to have more specific topics around distance we're
Speaker 2: going to want to look at with them, you know.
Speaker 2: So as far as the next twelve to eighteen months,
Speaker 2: I say, in one of the good things about our
Speaker 2: process that we follow from an equipment rulemaking procedures that
Speaker 2: it's transparent. We choreograph early on, here is what we're interested,
Speaker 2: here's here's potentially where we'd like to go. The bad
Speaker 2: part about it being transparent is you're putting a lot
Speaker 2: of things out there and that are going to generate
Speaker 2: questions and you just don't have the answers to those
Speaker 2: questions yet. Right, So, as we go through the research,
Speaker 2: as we begin to look at solutions, look at the knobs,
Speaker 2: we'll have a better idea about what potential solutions might be,
Speaker 2: what timelines we might have to implement those solutions. Some
Speaker 2: could be short, some could be long term. To use
Speaker 2: my local rules, do you make it a do you
Speaker 2: make it an overall rule change? So there's just a
Speaker 2: lot of questions we have to answer, and most of that, frankly,
Speaker 2: will be done you know, behind the scenes over the
Speaker 2: next you know, twelve twelve or so months.
Speaker 1: In the document, you guys define this period working with
Speaker 1: golf stakeholders and a comment period for golf stakeholders who
Speaker 1: are golf stakeholders in it for this exercise, you know,
Speaker 1: I think that was something that a lot of people wondered,
Speaker 1: Can I just write a comment?
Speaker 2: So, first of all I mean, I would tell you that,
Speaker 2: you know, the USGA is a nonprofit as and as
Speaker 2: a membership organization. As the governing body, we're always you know,
Speaker 2: our doors, our phone lines, our email boxes are always open,
Speaker 2: so people should never hesitate to reach out to us
Speaker 2: if they have questions, inquiry, suggestions. You know, as we
Speaker 2: as we look at this, we are really in a
Speaker 2: technical stage, right, and so it is the primary stakeholder
Speaker 2: is going to be the manufacturing community. And then outside
Speaker 2: of that, we also have you know, the major tours
Speaker 2: that are a key stakeholder that the players. We also
Speaker 2: have you know, at the amateur level, you have our
Speaker 2: allied golf associations who are out there running state amateurs,
Speaker 2: you know, junior tours. So it's a lot of the
Speaker 2: groups that represent golf or subsets of golfers. And again
Speaker 2: it's important that everybody's voice is heard, which is why
Speaker 2: we have this process we go through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for the collaboration standpoint with manufacturers, I imagine,
Speaker 1: like some of the stuff you outlined, like changing the
Speaker 1: MOI on a club and seeing the impacts that have,
Speaker 1: like that's something you have to work directly with manufacturers on.
Speaker 2: Right, It is I mean, look, our team. Again, they
Speaker 2: can undertake the research, but it's a lot of validation
Speaker 2: and thought sharing that needs to happen between manufacturers and
Speaker 2: our teams. That's just it's critical for success, and they've been.
Speaker 1: Manufacturers have been very open with collaborating on these types
Speaker 1: of things with you guys historically.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have been. It's again, I think it provides
Speaker 2: sideline into what we're thinking from an equipment standard standpoint,
Speaker 2: but allows for them to share their views because, as
Speaker 2: I say, whatever decisions are made, we need to make
Speaker 2: sure that they're fully informed, right, and so we need
Speaker 2: to validate the research or that that we're seeing, but
Speaker 2: we also need to make sure that when it translates
Speaker 2: out into you know, the marketplace or into the plane
Speaker 2: of the game, that we've thought through everything. We don't
Speaker 2: want to make any hasty decisions here.
Speaker 1: With the Distance Inside report that came out last year,
Speaker 1: were there any you know, big revelations for you personally
Speaker 1: or and also for your team. Were there specific things
Speaker 1: that really stuck out more than others with that report?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the number one thing that's
Speaker 2: stuck out is, frankly, just how this does impact all
Speaker 2: of us as golfers, whether that be you know, the
Speaker 2: pace of play or the cost of that gets passed
Speaker 2: along the golfers, but also distance. It's actually much thicker
Speaker 2: than just the long hitting golfers. Right. It's on all sides.
Speaker 2: There's a stat that I believe it's only eight percent
Speaker 2: of golf courses in the United States have a tea
Speaker 2: that's short enough for the shorter hitting players, for the
Speaker 2: shortest hitting players, right, and so distances, there's issues on
Speaker 2: all sides. When we talk about a game that we
Speaker 2: want to be welcoming and inclusive, we know that it
Speaker 2: can be that there are barriers to entry. We know
Speaker 2: that it can be intimidating. I'd say it's pretty intimidating
Speaker 2: if you come out to start the game and there's
Speaker 2: not a set of tees that you can play and
Speaker 2: go out and enjoy yourself. So we're trying to take
Speaker 2: a really a holistic view of this. This is not
Speaker 2: just about equipment. I know, it's where everybody wants to go.
Speaker 2: I know that you know obviously issue in the area
Speaker 2: of interest in the research topics, but there is a
Speaker 2: huge golf course component to this as well that we
Speaker 2: want to look at. And the golfer experience component as
Speaker 2: to how how can we come together with the industry
Speaker 2: develop best practices around you know, maintenance, set up everything
Speaker 2: else that welcomes golfers and allows for them to enjoy
Speaker 2: their experience.
Speaker 1: One of the biggest rebuttals to any sort of recalibration
Speaker 1: of regulation on distance and equipment is that this is
Speaker 1: just a zero point one percent problem. And from what
Speaker 1: I'm hearing you talk about, this is not a point
Speaker 1: one percent professional golf problem at all. It's a problem
Speaker 1: for all of golf.
Speaker 2: It is, right, and part of the study you look
Speaker 2: at golf courses that will never host a PGA Tour
Speaker 2: level event or a professional event. They're lengthening, right or
Speaker 2: they're making changes to their golf course, whether it be
Speaker 2: perception based or reality, and those changes again come with costs.
Speaker 2: As costs get passed along to us, the trend of
Speaker 2: those changes, they're only going to continue. And so even
Speaker 2: if you have a facility where there's a small fraction
Speaker 2: of players that play that back tis, we're all paying
Speaker 2: for those back tees, and when there's a new set
Speaker 2: of back teas that goes up, we all end up
Speaker 2: paying for those as well, well, you know, so as
Speaker 2: we look at distance reduction, there's a huge inventory of
Speaker 2: t's in front of us, and so so if there
Speaker 2: is some change in distance, most of us have the
Speaker 2: ability to move up with tea and frankly have an
Speaker 2: equallys enjoyable experience while shrinking the footprint of the golf
Speaker 2: course at the same time. You know, it's we are
Speaker 2: the only sport that I'm aware of where we change
Speaker 2: our venue to meet the needs of equipment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the question I had, And I'm curious,
Speaker 1: you know, when you guys look at other sports that
Speaker 1: have confronted these issues, like you know, most most recently
Speaker 1: we saw, you know, the Nike running shoe, which we're
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, marathon records were falling left and
Speaker 1: right because of a shoe that could a lot of
Speaker 1: people are run four to five minutes faster over the
Speaker 1: course of twenty six miles. And you know, swimming had
Speaker 1: obviously the swimsuits, and you know, cycling has a lot
Speaker 1: of mechanical stuff that goes into a race.
Speaker 4: Car driving.
Speaker 1: Do you guys look at other sports and how they've
Speaker 1: confronted these issues and the impacts that they've had before
Speaker 1: and after and and so forth. When with this study
Speaker 1: that you guys are conducting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we we have looked at other sports
Speaker 2: and you know, you're right, this is innovation is not
Speaker 2: something that's unique to golf, and athleticism is not something
Speaker 2: that's unique to golf either. Right. It's as we think
Speaker 2: about this topic, right, there are three contributing factors to distance.
Speaker 2: You have course setup, you have athleticism, and with that
Speaker 2: there's a number of things. It's not just you know,
Speaker 2: how big and strong and flexible golfers are, but it's
Speaker 2: also the amount of information they have, the data they
Speaker 2: can have to really optimize their performance. And then you
Speaker 2: have equipment, right, golf course setup. We can issue best
Speaker 2: practices as a governing body, we can work with our
Speaker 2: industry partners, but ultimately that's you know, the host committee
Speaker 2: or the golf course's decision to make athleticism desire to
Speaker 2: get sort of bigger, stronger, more flexible to optimize that.
Speaker 2: That's fantastic, right. As golf fans, I think we're all
Speaker 2: in awe of that. I think it's the definition of
Speaker 2: athletic endeavor and there's no way to regulate it in
Speaker 2: any sport. No, should it be regulated, right, And so
Speaker 2: that then leads us to equipment. And so the only
Speaker 2: way we have to monitor distance or have an impact
Speaker 2: on distance reduction is through equipment. And even if players
Speaker 2: are the primary contributing factor, that letticism is the primary
Speaker 2: contributing factor to current distance gains, the reality is is
Speaker 2: that will continue to increase as well. Right there's a
Speaker 2: subset of golfers you look at on the World Long
Speaker 2: Drive Tour right where they're able to get swing speeds
Speaker 2: up above one point forty ball speeds two fifteen. It's
Speaker 2: only a matter of time before you have that capability
Speaker 2: on the PGA Tour. And so my point is they're
Speaker 2: still room for distance increase. And if we see that
Speaker 2: cycle or that continued increase being a problem, the primary
Speaker 2: lever we have to help control it is through equipment.
Speaker 2: And so that's what we're faced with right now.
Speaker 1: I think something that I think about sometimes is I
Speaker 1: actually sympathize the player today in some regard because their
Speaker 1: athletic accomplishments are sometimes muddied by is this equipment or
Speaker 1: is this athletics? Like what what's the rory's athleticism? You know,
Speaker 1: you know, we see Usain Bolt. He's faster than anybody
Speaker 1: ever before. And that's a simple thing. They run the
Speaker 1: same distance, they run with essentially the same equipment, and
Speaker 1: you can say this is the fastest man ever. But
Speaker 1: with golf, with with the changing golf course dimensions and
Speaker 1: then also the changing equipment, it's impossible to tell. How
Speaker 1: much are you know this modern era of player has
Speaker 1: progressed over over the years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's tough to compare era to era,
Speaker 2: and that's always been the case, and I think that
Speaker 2: will always continue to be the case. You know. But
Speaker 2: you talk about, you know, the players and their athleticism
Speaker 2: and their athletic endeavor and just how good they are.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's one of the benefits we also have
Speaker 2: as a game, right, we all play the same equipment.
Speaker 2: There aren't too many sports where the professional athlete is
Speaker 2: going to use the same equipment as as the amateurs.
Speaker 2: And so you and I go out and play. We
Speaker 2: might be using the same drivers as as a Roary
Speaker 2: or someone else. Uh, And yet we can sit back
Speaker 2: and marvel at the distance they have as compared to
Speaker 2: you and I. So I think that you know their
Speaker 2: abilities as athletes, Uh, really does shine through.
Speaker 4: With the with the local rule.
Speaker 1: That's something that was used heavily in the announcement. Is
Speaker 1: a local rule bifurcation by another name.
Speaker 2: You know, it's fine, I get that question all the time,
Speaker 2: and and and I'll sort of go rules nerd on
Speaker 2: you for here.
Speaker 1: Explain a local rule to to the to the audience
Speaker 1: as well, because I think that would be an important
Speaker 1: place to start and probably should have been the first question.
Speaker 2: Well it was, you know, so local rules. So you
Speaker 2: have the rules of golf, and you have local rules.
Speaker 2: But if we go all the way back to seventeen
Speaker 2: forty four, that first set of rules, the thirteen rules
Speaker 2: that were written there for a single golf course, for
Speaker 2: a single tournament. So in essence, it was a series
Speaker 2: of local rules. And as you look at golf in
Speaker 2: the UK around that time, every golf course they were
Speaker 2: writing their own rules, and it wasn't until eighteen ninety
Speaker 2: nine that the RNA was sort of appointed as the
Speaker 2: governing body to write a single set of rules. Here
Speaker 2: in the US we even used the RNA's rules, but
Speaker 2: then we made adaptations that we called local rules on
Speaker 2: our side. In nineteen fifty two, the USGA and the
Speaker 2: RNA came together and for the first time ever, we
Speaker 2: had a single set of rules playing rules to be
Speaker 2: used at every golf course throughout the world. That said,
Speaker 2: there's thirty thousand plus golf courses. I always tell people
Speaker 2: the playing rules are tough because you have to imagine
Speaker 2: that anything that can and will happen to that little
Speaker 2: white ball, and you have to write a rule around it.
Speaker 2: We don't have We're not football right where we don't
Speaker 2: have a standard playing field, and so riding rules can
Speaker 2: become challenging. So if you have a local golf course,
Speaker 2: or you have a tour, or you have a tournament
Speaker 2: that has something unique to that golf course, unique to
Speaker 2: that event, they have to adapt the rules in some regards.
Speaker 2: And that's where model local rules step in. It's areas
Speaker 2: where committees running a tournament or committees running golf course
Speaker 2: have flexibility or options around rules to put into place
Speaker 2: for their golf course. Most people think of those in
Speaker 2: terms of the playing rules. However, there are a number
Speaker 2: of equipment related local rules currently in place. Right the
Speaker 2: one ball condition which a lot of people hear about,
Speaker 2: and that's you start around. You know, with the make
Speaker 2: and model of golf ball, and you have to use
Speaker 2: that same make and model golf ball throughout the entire round.
Speaker 2: That's a local rule. A lot of talk within certainly
Speaker 2: competitive circles around grooves, right like your grooves have to
Speaker 2: meet a standard that was put in place in twenty ten.
Speaker 2: That's a local rule. The use of conforming golf balls
Speaker 2: or driver or conforming drivers. Those are lists that can
Speaker 2: put into place by local rule, not necessarily always in
Speaker 2: place at the club level, but certainly when you start
Speaker 2: getting into competitions. And so this concept of flexibility, as
Speaker 2: concept of options has long existed. And all we're saying
Speaker 2: now is as we look at these different areas of research,
Speaker 2: is we look at changes to the balls, we look
Speaker 2: to changes to the club. If we step back and
Speaker 2: we say, you know what, we can actually achieve some
Speaker 2: significant amount of reduction here. But that reduction might not
Speaker 2: be best for the game as a whole, right Like,
Speaker 2: maybe it impacts the low swing speeds more than we'd
Speaker 2: like it too, and so it's going to have an
Speaker 2: impact a greater impact on the recreational game than we'd like. Well,
Speaker 2: perhaps we can put that option out as a local
Speaker 2: rule so that courses tournaments tours that might want to
Speaker 2: use that option would have it as an option. So
Speaker 2: it's again there's no specifics in mind, but it's just
Speaker 2: let's explore, like, let's not be afraid of exploring the
Speaker 2: idea of options for the game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so obviously you just outlay there's no specifics
Speaker 1: in mind. This is just an exploration. But to say
Speaker 1: there was a local rule put in place, how would
Speaker 1: you go about, you know, suggesting delineation between the different
Speaker 1: layers of golf. You know, where is it an elite
Speaker 1: amateur because like you said before, distance is an issue
Speaker 1: at you know, at everywhere. You know, a player that
Speaker 1: hits the ball three hundred yards distant an issue at
Speaker 1: a sixty four hundred yard golf course for that player,
Speaker 1: you know, they might hit it out of the range
Speaker 1: they you know, So what would be you know, in
Speaker 1: you know, in a hypothetical world, a type of way
Speaker 1: to delineate, you know, when the local rule is put
Speaker 1: in place versus not in place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, I mean for the equipment related local
Speaker 2: rules I mentioned earlier, we have a provider in there.
Speaker 2: We say, you know, these are usually are typically recommended
Speaker 2: for elite level competitions, right, but that even that is undefined,
Speaker 2: So what does that mean? Does that mean you know,
Speaker 2: the NCAA, your state amateurs, what about your state junior amateur?
Speaker 2: It becomes really difficult. And when you start talking local
Speaker 2: rules that could potentially have an impact on distance, I
Speaker 2: think that any what you just raised there is probably
Speaker 2: going to be the toughest question around implementation, like where
Speaker 2: do you recommend it, where do you start, where do
Speaker 2: you stop? And then you're going to have those players,
Speaker 2: frankly on the fringes that might need you know, two
Speaker 2: different sets of equipment or two different types of golf balls,
Speaker 2: whatever it might be. Right, So I'm going to play
Speaker 2: under this set of rules at the state Amateur this week,
Speaker 2: but then next week I'm playing in the you know,
Speaker 2: the high School Association by regional where that local rule
Speaker 2: is not in effect, and so it can get pretty
Speaker 2: muddy pretty quick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I think obviously, like baseball is
Speaker 1: a perfect example, where you play with aluminum bats your
Speaker 1: entire life until you turn professional, and then you play
Speaker 1: with wooden bats. And I don't think it's it's prohibited
Speaker 1: any all time greats from not making it. You know,
Speaker 1: if anything you know, it just accelerated their pass when
Speaker 1: they get to play with wooden bats.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And so it is. Look there there
Speaker 2: are fortunate for us, and you mentioned this before with
Speaker 2: other sports, there are other sports that have models out there,
Speaker 2: whether it be you know, baseball and bats or tennants
Speaker 2: in the different balls that we really need to consider
Speaker 2: closely and see are their models that that might benefit
Speaker 2: the game of golf as well.
Speaker 4: How's the response?
Speaker 1: How have you felt the response has been thus far,
Speaker 1: both you know, publicly and then you know behind in
Speaker 1: back channels as your team's communicated with you know, the
Speaker 1: various stakeholders and had you know, more private conversations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, in a lot of respects, this last
Speaker 2: week has just sort of been a sort of reignited
Speaker 2: some of the conversation that came out with the first
Speaker 2: distance report last year. So I'm not surprised by any
Speaker 2: of it. Again, I think that people are asking a
Speaker 2: lot of questions that were just not far enough along
Speaker 2: in our process to have the answers for, and so
Speaker 2: they'll continue to be chattering. Look, it's a it's a
Speaker 2: discussion that's happened for a while, but it's a discussion
Speaker 2: that we think is important and as people want to
Speaker 2: talk publicly or privately, I think I think it's only
Speaker 2: going to benefit all of us. So the response has
Speaker 2: been frankly about what we expected. Behind the scenes, I
Speaker 2: can tell you. I mean, we've already started engaging with manufacturers,
Speaker 2: already started talking around you know, here's some of the
Speaker 2: things we've looked at. How about how about you guys?
Speaker 2: And and that will continue because, like I said, that's
Speaker 2: for this to be successful, that's going to be the
Speaker 2: most critical component. So I'm pleased with where we are.
Speaker 2: I think that we're set up for success. It's just
Speaker 2: not going to happen overnight, which I know might disappoint
Speaker 2: some folks, but that's the process that we have to
Speaker 2: adhere to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, want to rush daddy decisions
Speaker 1: because that's the knee jerk reactions are probably usually the
Speaker 1: worst thing. I'm curious if the way golf looks today
Speaker 1: versus you know what the romanticization of the sixties or
Speaker 1: fifties or before, does that have anything to do with
Speaker 1: this effort.
Speaker 2: No, And that's you know a lot of people will
Speaker 2: will want to suggest that there's some era that needs
Speaker 2: to be replicated here. This is not about replicating an era.
Speaker 2: This really is about again understanding where the game is today,
Speaker 2: understanding the strengths of the game, but looking out into
Speaker 2: the future and just saying this is not sustainable, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, is this confluence of economic environmental pressures, pressures
Speaker 2: on the golf course to lengthen safety concerns which I
Speaker 2: know you've talked at length about. There's there's that you
Speaker 2: know path, and then there's this path of increased hitting distance.
Speaker 2: At some point they're going to converge and it's not
Speaker 2: going to be healthy for the game, and so how
Speaker 2: can we best try and keep the pass parallel. That's
Speaker 2: really what this is all about. Certainly, you know, you
Speaker 2: look at distance, and you can look at the game
Speaker 2: and in some aspects you can see perhaps there's now
Speaker 2: an over reliance on distance as opposed to other forms
Speaker 2: of the game. And so that's where people want to
Speaker 2: talk about romanticizing about other eras. But it is important
Speaker 2: that there be a variety of skills required to be
Speaker 2: successful in the game. Right. It's poor of the challenge.
Speaker 2: It's not just how far you hit it, but it's
Speaker 2: how it's how you sort of deal with the pressures
Speaker 2: and challenges of the next shot with which it with
Speaker 2: which comes you know, the need to frankly hit more
Speaker 2: than just a few clubs in your bag.
Speaker 1: I will always contend, and this is just a personal
Speaker 1: and this might not be the best time to bring
Speaker 1: up this is a personal opinion, but I will always
Speaker 1: contend that the game of golf is so like intoxicating
Speaker 1: and enthralling for people because at the very core, no
Speaker 1: matter how well you play, you always feel like you suck.
Speaker 1: And the challenge of it is the aspect of the
Speaker 1: game that is so important. Is that that's what makes
Speaker 1: it different than throwing darts or bowling, is where the
Speaker 1: perfection is attainable for players of every skill level.
Speaker 2: You're You're right. I mean, look, the difference between good
Speaker 2: and great in our game is paper thin. And I
Speaker 2: know that you've sort of been there and experienced that, right,
Speaker 2: we all have. It's the challenge of the game. And
Speaker 2: that's when you talk to golf fans and golfers, it's
Speaker 2: the challenge that comes out as the number one attribute, right.
Speaker 2: It's not I love the game because I can hit
Speaker 2: it really far. It's I love the game because it
Speaker 2: challenges me, and as you always hear people say, it's
Speaker 2: that one good shot that keeps you coming back. So
Speaker 2: you hit one good shot and I'm back at the
Speaker 2: challenge again tomorrow, again trying to get better, knowing that
Speaker 2: perfection is unattainable. And I think that frankly, it's golf fans.
Speaker 2: That's why when you step back and you watch, you know,
Speaker 2: the best players in the world, you are just in
Speaker 2: awe because you're thinking, how are they able to achieve that?
Speaker 2: How did he just you know, hit that shot where
Speaker 2: he cut up, you know, cut over those trees, and like,
Speaker 2: it's just it amazes you. Because you can put because
Speaker 2: we have the same set of playing rules, because we
Speaker 2: can play the same golf courses, because we play the
Speaker 2: same equipment, you can put yourself in that player's shoes
Speaker 2: and realize how unbelievably difficult it is to pull off
Speaker 2: what he or she just did. Uh.
Speaker 1: I wanted to go through some of the you know,
Speaker 1: common rebuttals for for distance, If that's all right, I
Speaker 1: just would love to hear your your take on them.
Speaker 1: These are the things that you know, I see on
Speaker 1: the internet. I've heard players discuss and I'm curious how
Speaker 1: how you would address them?
Speaker 4: In general?
Speaker 1: Why can't architects just alter courses, uh to for the
Speaker 1: And this is generally pointed towards the point one percent problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but but again it's not just a point one
Speaker 2: percent problem, because we're seeing major golf course renovations, you know,
Speaker 2: all across the industry, right, and a lot of those
Speaker 2: courses are not hosting even state level events, let alone
Speaker 2: tour level events. So it's happening. And I would just
Speaker 2: say that it's been it's been a default solution for
Speaker 2: for years, right, It's been, well, let's just go ahead
Speaker 2: and move this bunker here, or hey, let's you know, dude,
Speaker 2: let's create a dog leg here. And the question really
Speaker 2: becomes why, like, why should golf courses have to make
Speaker 2: that type of investment and capital costs? Why should they
Speaker 2: have to change potentially historic architecture in some cases just
Speaker 2: because the ball is going farther. As I mentioned before,
Speaker 2: I mean, we're the only sport where the venues manipulated
Speaker 2: to react to equipment as opposed you know, to retain
Speaker 2: the venue and address equipment. So it's just thinking about
Speaker 2: it differently.
Speaker 1: In conversations, do you guys have you guys talked at
Speaker 1: all to like golf course owners. I feel like in
Speaker 1: a way they've kind of been like the silent party
Speaker 1: in this whole thing. Like everybody talks about professional golf OEMs,
Speaker 1: but nobody talks about the golf course owner. And a
Speaker 1: lot of them are effectively small business owners.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, you're right to bring that up, and it
Speaker 2: goes back to that earlier question about stakeholders, right. I mean,
Speaker 2: there's it's a big industry, big gains, lots of important viewpoints.
Speaker 2: So as we look at it, right, golf course owners, operators,
Speaker 2: golf course superintendents, PGA professionals, so the twenty nine thousand
Speaker 2: members that are interacting and engaging golfers on a daily basis,
Speaker 2: we engage with all of them, right, and it's important
Speaker 2: that we do that I mentioned before, the fully informed.
Speaker 2: We need to have a fully informed view on what
Speaker 2: they see as the issues and what they see as
Speaker 2: potential solutions. And so, you know, outside of our equipment process,
Speaker 2: we have this you know, the golf course golfer experience
Speaker 2: side of things that I spoke to earlier, where we're
Speaker 2: actively engaging all those groups, right, all those audiences to understand,
Speaker 2: you know, what is the impact, right, if you lengthen
Speaker 2: a whole by forty yards, what does it cost to
Speaker 2: put that team? What is now your annual cost to
Speaker 2: maintain that? What is that doing to labor? And if
Speaker 2: you did that over time you know X number of times,
Speaker 2: what is that going to do to your bottom line?
Speaker 2: And how do you pass alone the golfers And so
Speaker 2: it's important that we understand where you know, as you say,
Speaker 2: the small business owners are, what their views are on things,
Speaker 2: and how we can best support them as we move forward.
Speaker 4: There.
Speaker 1: They're an interesting one because they kind of have both
Speaker 1: sides of the coin where they where they have the
Speaker 1: they have to combat distance with their golf course, but
Speaker 1: they also sell equipment and their pro shops. It's actually
Speaker 1: an interesting dichotomy.
Speaker 2: It is, but it's it's, uh, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: think it has to be right one or the other.
Speaker 2: I think that there's there's a happy medium that will
Speaker 2: come from all this. But you know, you put the
Speaker 2: mom and pop type golf course where you know, they
Speaker 2: feel like they have to lengthen just for perception. Right,
Speaker 2: It's it's marketing as much as anything. My golf course
Speaker 2: is too short. People don't want to come play here.
Speaker 2: My driving range is too short. People don't want to
Speaker 2: come hit balls here. And so, whether it's right or wrong,
Speaker 2: people are making changes to their to their courses, to
Speaker 2: their facilities in order to to sort of address distance
Speaker 2: and what they think the customer wants from distance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think about it a lot of times.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite places is this little public course
Speaker 1: ach and golf club. It's fifty nine hundred yards on
Speaker 1: a good day if you got all the way back.
Speaker 1: But what are the coolest aspects of it? You know,
Speaker 1: it's really hard anyway, it's not a pushover at fifty
Speaker 1: nine hundred yards, but because of you know, just the
Speaker 1: wonderful topography and everything.
Speaker 4: But one of the coolest things is you go play.
Speaker 1: There at Saturday, Saturday at eight am, you're done at
Speaker 1: eleven am. It's unbelievable how much time you save when
Speaker 1: when the golf course footprints so much smaller.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you say you save time, you save, you save
Speaker 2: you know, resources, you save so many things, and it
Speaker 2: can be so much more enjoyable. Right. You look at
Speaker 2: a golf course like that and it's probably very short
Speaker 2: walks from green to tea. So you finish a hole,
Speaker 2: you move on to the next and you put a
Speaker 2: ball in the ear and you just keep going.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: Those are some of the more most enjoyable experiences you
Speaker 2: can have as a golfer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think obviously anybody that's more interested in
Speaker 1: the golf course aspect of this, you guys just put
Speaker 1: you put together. The USGA Green Section put together a
Speaker 1: new collaborative project that was all focused on golf courses
Speaker 1: that's incredibly insightful and kind of outlines a lot of
Speaker 1: the things that we've touched on in this conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean our Green Section. I mean, that's that's
Speaker 2: a group, right one hundred years a green USGA Green
Speaker 2: Section has been in existence and doing things on behalf
Speaker 2: of the game, from whether it be turf turf grash
Speaker 2: research to agronomic best practices. But it is very thoughtful research.
Speaker 2: But that group that I mean, their their hands on
Speaker 2: the pulse of the game and they're looking I mean,
Speaker 2: we talk about trends and understanding the future and challenges
Speaker 2: the games potentially going to face. I mean, it's that
Speaker 2: group that has their finger on the pulse.
Speaker 1: So let's get back into some rebuttals and Rory Backleroy
Speaker 1: has some had a statement this week and I was
Speaker 1: curious if you could address this. He said, Honestly, I
Speaker 1: think this Distance Insight Report has been a huge waste
Speaker 1: of time and money because that money that's that its
Speaker 1: costs to do this report could have been way better
Speaker 1: distributed getting people into the game, introducing young kids of
Speaker 1: the game, introducing minorities the game. Can you go into
Speaker 1: detail on the cost of the report and where the
Speaker 1: allocation of money came from, and did this money that
Speaker 1: was allocated take away from any growing the game initiatives?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So, so first let me just start by saying,
Speaker 2: you know, it is especially when you're talking about you know,
Speaker 2: best players in the world. I appreciate everybody has opinions,
Speaker 2: and so I'll never sort of agree disagree. It's just
Speaker 2: I'll make what I believe to be my statement. But
Speaker 2: look again, Rory's entitled to his opinion. I'll just tell
Speaker 2: you that from my perspective as a governing body, it's important,
Speaker 2: right we're the objective party, so I think it's important
Speaker 2: that we have, as I said, our sort of finger
Speaker 2: on the pulse of the game. And that's really bigger
Speaker 2: than just equipment related factors with distance. No one else
Speaker 2: is going to go through and do the comprehensive study.
Speaker 2: No one else is going to go through and draw
Speaker 2: the trend lines as it relates to distance challenges facing
Speaker 2: the game with resources right and understand the correlation between
Speaker 2: the two. And so I think it's an important project
Speaker 2: that we undertook and it's something that's going to benefit
Speaker 2: the game well into the future as it relates to resources. Right,
Speaker 2: we can do multiple things at a single time. What
Speaker 2: we're able to multitask, we have a great staff, and
Speaker 2: so everything Roy just listed there totally agree with as
Speaker 2: being important. Right. I think that as an organization we
Speaker 2: would say that those are our priorities as well, and
Speaker 2: we're able to accomplish those things all while at the
Speaker 2: same time undertaking this report on distance. So I think
Speaker 2: if we sat down, I think that we would find
Speaker 2: we actually agree a lot on what the vision of
Speaker 2: a healthy game in the future looks like, and the
Speaker 2: USGA is working hard to help bring that vision to life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something that got glossed over with Roy's comments
Speaker 1: that I kind of gloss Who's asked to follow up
Speaker 1: about a potential local rule bifurcation that he said, I'd
Speaker 1: be all for that, you know. Yeah, so I think
Speaker 1: I think that you know, this convent was one covet
Speaker 1: and then the other covet.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: He I don't think he's you know, necessarily opposed to
Speaker 1: a lot of what the study is uncovering in in ways,
Speaker 1: what about the rebuttal this will have a negative impact
Speaker 1: on growing the game.
Speaker 2: Look, I think the game has always been faced with challenges. Again,
Speaker 2: I think primarily intimidation, right, people that are new to
Speaker 2: the game, they can find it really intimidating. And and
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that a reduction and distance is going
Speaker 2: to change that. I think we have to look at
Speaker 2: other things. Right, So hitting the ball far it's an
Speaker 2: endeavor that a lot of people, you know, especially starting
Speaker 2: the game you're a year or two in. I want
Speaker 2: to hit the ball as far as I can. That
Speaker 2: will always be there, right, that challenge. But reducing distance
Speaker 2: by some small amount, I don't think it's going to
Speaker 2: take away from the enjoyment of the game. As I
Speaker 2: mentioned before, I mean, there's an inventory of teas in
Speaker 2: front of us that if we're concerned about our distance
Speaker 2: into the green being lengthened as a result of a
Speaker 2: reduction and distance, we can move forward to tea and
Speaker 2: have just an enjoyable experience tomorrow as we did today.
Speaker 2: And so again I don't view distance as being the
Speaker 2: primary contributing factor to enjoyment.
Speaker 1: Why can't we just drow log rough to penalize the
Speaker 1: long hitters?
Speaker 2: Look, that is a golf course set up variable. So
Speaker 2: certainly things can be done from a strategic standpoint to
Speaker 2: try and indirectly impact distance, But I don't think that's
Speaker 2: the solution, right. It's you know, potentially, are you looking
Speaker 2: at more water? Are you looking at more nutrients? It's
Speaker 2: just it's something that you can't or governing bodies we
Speaker 2: don't have control over on a universal basis, and so
Speaker 2: it's not really addressing the issue from my perspective.
Speaker 1: And then kind of a big picture question, you're the
Speaker 1: senior managing director of governance and I'm just curious, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of talk obviously with Mike Davis stepping down
Speaker 1: as CEO soon, will this have any impact on how
Speaker 1: distance insights the work moves forward with a potential hiring
Speaker 1: of a new CEO. Is there anything that could impact
Speaker 1: you know where this project is going.
Speaker 2: No, So the short answer is no. Right, as an organization,
Speaker 2: I think we're all we all believe that there is
Speaker 2: this cycle of distance that needs to be dealt with.
Speaker 2: So this is this goes far beyond Mike Davis. Now,
Speaker 2: certainly Mike is very passionate about the topic. I know
Speaker 2: a lot of people have associated his name with this
Speaker 2: topic for years. But this, this goes beyond Mike. Right,
Speaker 2: This is organizationally and that goes for the RNA as well.
Speaker 2: I think as the governing bides again, we step back
Speaker 2: and globally look at the game and just want to
Speaker 2: make sure that it's in a healthy place. Want to
Speaker 2: make sure it's in a good place moving forward. And
Speaker 2: so as Mike steps down at the end of this year,
Speaker 2: the new CEO will have a new CEO in place,
Speaker 2: and and that new CEO is going to believe in
Speaker 2: the vision as well.
Speaker 1: With the with the CT test, I just want to
Speaker 1: back up for a second. I'm trying to clean up
Speaker 1: some odds and ends here of things I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you the CT test, the how how difficult is
Speaker 1: this to minister on a regular basis. I'm curious in
Speaker 1: terms of like, how long does it take?
Speaker 4: What goes into it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean our test technicians could could tell you.
Speaker 2: I mean it's not that. It's not that difficult of
Speaker 2: a process, right. And you have a pendulum with a
Speaker 2: golf ball on it or a weight that mimics a
Speaker 2: golf ball, uh, And and it also has the sensors
Speaker 2: in it, and you literally just drop the pendulum onto
Speaker 2: the club face and all and the sensors give you
Speaker 2: the reading in the computer. So it's not a hard
Speaker 2: process to go through. Uh. In addition to you know,
Speaker 2: the U. S G and the RY, the majority of manufacturers,
Speaker 2: if not all of them that mass produce, have the
Speaker 2: pendulum so that they can test and calibrate on their
Speaker 2: end as they're developing the golf club. So it's not
Speaker 2: Look I'm a non engineer speaking, but the testing itself
Speaker 2: is not is not that difficult. You know, there's testing
Speaker 2: that takes place at certain tour events throughout the year,
Speaker 2: and that's that's able to take place in a trailer
Speaker 2: relatively quickly where a player hands over his club and
Speaker 2: then gets it back not long thereafter. So it's pretty
Speaker 2: pretty straightforward.
Speaker 1: Are you surprised that more testing doesn't take place with
Speaker 1: ct A as in regards to like you know, when
Speaker 1: you compare testing that goes into auto racing, cycling and
Speaker 1: different things on a mechanical object used to you know,
Speaker 1: play a sport.
Speaker 2: I mean, I would just say that I think part
Speaker 2: of that goes back to the game, right and sort
Speaker 2: of the spirit and ethos of the game. We're not
Speaker 2: a sport that gets followed around by a referee with
Speaker 2: a yellow flag that's just throwing them you know, at
Speaker 2: every every turn, right, We we apply the rules on
Speaker 2: our own. Certainly, they're officials in place at certain events
Speaker 2: to help us out, but for the most part, we're
Speaker 2: out there acting with integrity, and I think that that
Speaker 2: carries over into the equipment testing as well. I think,
Speaker 2: more than anything, the equipment testing is just done to
Speaker 2: ensure manufacturing is sort of is manufacturing with the clubs
Speaker 2: that put in the tour player's hands or are in line.
Speaker 2: But there's there's been nothing to signal that there's some
Speaker 2: large swath of non conforming equipment that any tournament organizer
Speaker 2: needs to be worried about. We just haven't seen it
Speaker 2: because again, as golfers, we all want to do the
Speaker 2: right thing. We want to make sure that we're playing
Speaker 2: with the right equipment, conforming equipment. We want to make
Speaker 2: sure we're playing by the rules.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for coming on and shedding
Speaker 1: some light on last week's announcements. I think it is
Speaker 1: really helpful, and I appreciate for anybody that's out there looking.
Speaker 4: To, you know, voice, how do they reach out? Is
Speaker 4: there an email?
Speaker 1: Is there a web page that they could reach out
Speaker 1: to with their you know, I know, with their comments
Speaker 1: and different things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the best the best place to go is on
Speaker 2: the USGA's website, so it's us GA dot org. And
Speaker 2: if they go under the plane tab, there'll be a
Speaker 2: distance Insights page that they can go to and that
Speaker 2: has all of the documents that we've discussed today, the
Speaker 2: distance report in the area of interest, and it also
Speaker 2: includes an email box on how to get in touch
Speaker 2: with us.
Speaker 4: Awesome.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for the time, Thomas, and we look
Speaker 1: forward to hopefully talking to you again as this process
Speaker 1: moves forward.
Speaker 2: Andy, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.