WEBVTT - The Latest from the USGA Distance Insights Project 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.320 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:10.600 Today's episode is with the USGAS Senior Managing Director of Governance, 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:14.840 Thomas Pagel. You're probably wondering who Thomas Pagel is. You 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:19.040 probably remember them from Rules and Rulings and such and 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:24.800 us opens of past. Thomas also runs the Distance Insights 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.680 Project at the USGA, and with last week's big announcement, 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:32.080 we wanted to have a bond to talk about its 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:36.239 near and long term implications on golf. For those of 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:41.000 you that might not know what Distance Insights Project is, 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:44.600 it centers around the golf ball equipment and where the 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:49.720 game's going and whether or not the current regulation on 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:55.400 different aspects of equipment needs to be recalibrated. So obviously 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.560 a major implications in terms of what professional golf might 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.720 look like and even what golf at the local level 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.920 might look like. I really appreciate Thomas coming on to talk. 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:10.640 I know he's a busy guy and obviously had a 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.640 lot of things going on last week, so we were 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.240 glad we could get this, uh get him on this 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.200 week and to discuss the ins and outs of the report, 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.000 the next steps and just the different layers of the 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:28.800 project and kind of addressing all aspects of it. So, 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.959 without further ado, here is Thomas Pagel I. 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.679 Miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:37.880 find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:38.720 when I find my. 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.480 Ball in a bright egg Friday egg and dreaded Frida 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.640 egg Frida egg frid egg egg Frida egg bride egg lie, 0:01:44.720 --> 0:02:13.040 I'm about ready to run off of the. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:06.760 Stops. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:08.280 Get right into it. 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.560 Your team obviously made a huge announcement last week. What 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.040 did golf fans in general need to know about last 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:16.760 week's announcement? 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.560 Yeah, last week's announcement was really picking up where we 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:23.880 left things off in late February of twenty twenty, so 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:28.240 you're recall February twenty twenty, we released the Distance Insights Report, 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.079 which was our comprehensive study with our partners at the 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.960 RNA talking about distance, looking at the history of distance, 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:36.679 understanding trends, what it might mean for the future of 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.880 the game, and ultimately we concluded that we think the 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.240 cycle of increased hitting length, increased course course lengthening is 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.760 not good for the game and that we need to 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.840 know it has to come to an end. In that document, 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.919 we endeavored to release what we call an area of 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.760 interest to the equipment manufacturers, talking about the areas we 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.920 want to study. We were scheduled to release that the 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.320 Monday or Tuesday after the Player's Chance and Chip. As 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.280 you can recall, Thursday evening in Ponavidra, everything shut down 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.679 and the golf world followed closely thereafter. So we made 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.760 the decision to go ahead and hold on releasing the 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.000 area of interest, knowing that the equipment manufacturers we're going 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.519 to have to deal with the entire industry, frankly was 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:18.080 going to have to deal with so much related to 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.240 the pandemic, and it wasn't the right time to engage 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.920 and continue into engineering or scientific discussion around you know, 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.040 attributes of a golf baller clubhead, right, So we put 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.639 everything on pause for twenty and then as we came 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.600 into this year, obviously golf is in a good place, 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.280 had a strong year even with the pandemic. Manufacturers are 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:40.320 still having issues, right, Like, let's be clear, I know 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:42.600 I talked to them, I hear of supply chain issues, 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:45.840 all sorts of things. However, we felt the time was 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.280 appropriate to re engage on the topic of distance to 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.280 really kick things off, because this is just the beginning, 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.080 This is the beginning of a long journey. So last 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:55.640 week we released the Area of Interest, which has, you know, 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.080 the six categories or six general categories of research that 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.080 we're interested in under taking over the course of the 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:03.560 next year. And then we also release what we call 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.839 a Notice of proposed rule changes to Equipment Manufacturers, which 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.320 is really outside of Distance Insights, but it highlighted a 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:12.760 few equipment changes that we're proposing here in the near term. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.719 With those that year kind of break. 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.960 I imagined you were watching golf, did anything, did any of 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:24.200 the areas of interest change? Did an emphasis on anything change? 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.880 Or did any rule these rules that you're looking to 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:30.840 implement come about because of the last year? 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.159 You know. We So while our public facing side of 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.680 things certainly was on pause last year, our team, our 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:41.000 equipment standards team, which are brilliant scientists and engineers, continued 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:42.720 on with a lot of their research and their day 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:48.320 to day operations with testing clubs and evaluating our testing 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:50.440 standards and everything else we look at as a team. 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:52.880 And so from from the area of interest to six 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:56.000 categories that didn't really expand. In fact, The document that 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.040 was released last week is largely the document that was 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:00.960 going to be released in March of twenty twenty. We 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.440 made a couple edits to date, so it was more timely, 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.640 but outside of that, it was really consistent. When we 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.800 look at the notice for proposed changes, you know, we 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.039 did have the benefit of the last year or to 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.320 look at our testing standards, and so when we look at, 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.320 you know, testing a golf ball in an optimized fashion, 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.120 we had the ability to evaluate over the last year 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.320 and make a determination that it was right to propose 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:29.000 a change to that standard. Same thing with the CT tolerance, right, 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.000 the characteristic time, so measuring the time that a golf 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.360 ball makes impact with the club face, so essentially you're 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:38.520 measuring trampoline effect. That has carried a historical tolerance of 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.919 eighteen microseconds. Not to get into the nerd weeds, but 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.080 manufacturers are so good with their capabilities and our testing capabilities, frankly, 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.000 have become so much better that that eighteen microsecond tolerance 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.479 is no longer necessary. Right, we can take it down 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:55.400 to six. Manufacturers can companibly produce within a six microsecond tolerance, 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.039 We can test within that tolerance, and so we felt 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.880 that was appropriate. But you know a lot of people say, well, 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.920 you're not taking distance away with that. We get it, like, look, 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:08.280 measuring eighteen microseconds, you're talking a yard. Maybe these changes 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.800 are not about reducing distances. It's about modernizing our standards 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.800 and it's frankly part of the day to day responsibility 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.000 that we have in serving that role of testing equipment 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.159 for the game, you know. And then the last proposed 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:22.839 changing any that I know a lot of folks have 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.839 talked about is the shaft length and the reduction and 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.119 shaft link by model Local rule from forty eight inches 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.720 to forty six inches. This is something we've talked about 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:33.640 for a while, right, We've we've been looking at this 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.240 since twenty fourteen, so you know, as Bryson's you know, 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.440 winning at the amateur level before anybody, before it became 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:42.800 really a household name, we were looking at shaft length. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:44.599 So this is not a reaction to what we saw 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:48.839 in the last year. However, you know, given the history 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:50.719 of that and we nearly proposed a rule change in 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.840 twenty eighteen, we thought the time was right to issue 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.359 the model local rule now because look, as more and 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.240 more players begin to experiment at all levels of the game. 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.400 It only makes change that much harder in the future. 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:05.839 And so as we look out to the future, if 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.240 we think forty six inches is the right number, we 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.000 just thought it was best to go ahead and issue 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:12.880 that now, as opposed to waiting for rule changes down 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.440 the line, because you know, I sort of liken it 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:19.480 to anchoring. You know, a long history of allowing players 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.920 to anchor the club and then the change became hard. 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.040 We didn't want to experience that again. 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:26.440 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.560 It's getting in a way out in front of it before. 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.760 You know, obviously two years ago, twenty eighteen, nobody was 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.960 really talking about using a forty seven forty eight inch driver, 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.080 and now all of a sudden you started to see 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.600 not just Bryson, you know dozens of pros I know, 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.840 at least experiment we're playing around with it at their 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.560 Hope course and you know player, So that makes sense. 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.080 From with the six areas of interest, could you just 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.400 outline those areas for the audience that may not have 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.160 dove in and read the entire report what those are 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.480 and kind of layman's terms, what they mean. 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.080 Yeah, the good news is I'm not an engineer, so 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:08.080 this will all come across in layman's terms. Right, So 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.040 the general areas we talk about, you know, a reductional 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:13.480 limit within the overall distance standard. And so right now 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.440 we have a standard of three hundred and seventeen yards 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.520 plus the tolerance of three yards to measure both the 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:21.560 carry but then also the bounce and roll of a 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.200 golf ball, and so is as golf balls are submitted 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.960 for conformance, we test them under certain standards with launch 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.520 and spin rates, and then wherever they end up, we 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.000 just say it needs to be less than three hundred 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.480 and seventeen yards. So we need to evaluate that three 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.920 seventeen and determine is that the right number? Should that 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:42.520 number be lesser. I'll preface all this by saying, you know, 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.920 we don't have the answers, we don't have the solutions. 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.600 This is really early in the stage where we're just choreographing. 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:50.280 Here's what we'd like to look at. We want to 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.520 engage with the industry around these topics. We have research, 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.360 We know the manufacturers have research, and in the end 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:58.960 we want to try and identify solutions that are about 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.640 the long term best interest or health of the game. 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.960 And so as I go through these, again no solutions 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.280 have been reaches or just general topics. The next one 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.360 is a modification on the limitation of ball efficiency. So 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.760 again it's just testing standards we have on how balls fly, 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.559 the aerodynamics of balls, and a review of that. Also 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.760 looking at you know, size and massing of golf balls, right, 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.320 So is there a way to do you look at 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.319 a smaller golf ball a larger golf ball. Do you 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:28.960 look at the density of a golf ball so that 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:34.400 it impacts different swing speeds differently? You know a lot 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.600 of different variables within a golf ball that we can 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.040 look at. And then you're looking at drivers club length. 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.720 So model local rule gets us to forty six inches, 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.160 but maybe we do some further research and determine that 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.319 forty five or forty three or forty three or forty 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:51.760 four excuse me, is a better long term number. So 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.160 we want to look at that as well as you know, massing, 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.040 size of the club head, moment of inertia, right, So 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.200 the forgiveness on a club face, what does that you 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.040 from a strategic standpoint, if you have a high mlide, 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:07.319 is that allowing players to swing perhaps a bit more aggressively. 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.760 If you change that, MOI, does that change the need 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.800 to perhaps hit a little closer to center. All things 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.040 that we just need to answer as we look through. 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.240 And then you know, last point is the spin right 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.080 and looking at spin. This is a great example of 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.880 both direct and indirect because you can look at spin 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:26.600 in a lot of different manners. Right, you can look 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.880 at spin off the driver face, you can look at 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:30.640 spin out of the rough, you can look at the 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.000 general spin coming from the golf ball. So all things 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:35.760 we need to look at again. Some of those directly 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:40.640 impact distance, others indirectly impact distance through either strategic choices 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:41.960 the player might make or otherwise. 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:47.400 Yeah, and just for everybody listening, is your job, you know, 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.000 in a way, you guys are putting together a study 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:55.760 slash like an experiment really here where your job is 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.480 to look at all the different angles of these in 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:04.800 the different implications that changes would make, and determine make 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.880 conclusions off of looking at all the different angles. It's 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.880 not you're not going into this saying we're going to 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:12.880 you know, limit distance. 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.000 That's well, we do know that we need to stop 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.080 the cycle, so some limitation on distance is necessary. But 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.839 you're right, in that from an equipment standard standpoint, I 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.200 always think of it in terms of levers. Right. Those 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.720 six categories are broad, and within each six of those 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.040 categories there are a lot of things you could potentially 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.960 do or levers you could turn. And so we just 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:34.840 want to do the research to understand the levers and 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:36.920 understand if we turn this one to the right, you 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:38.960 know this much, what is it going to do to 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:43.040 other levers? Right? Because there's always impacts of other things. 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.320 And then if you change two levers together, you know, 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.679 what would the overall amount of reduction that you could 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:52.400 achieve be, right, And what are the implications of that reduction? 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.040 What are the implications at different swing speeds? Right, So 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.520 it could impact somebody a one hundred and twenty much 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.640 different than an impact somebody with a clubhead speed of 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.440 ninety Likewise, Right, I think it's important that we understand 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:08.920 the implications, you know, in the industry on the marketplace 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:10.920 as well. Right, It's not like you can make an 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.480 equipment rule change and manufacturers can retool and shift overnight. 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:16.320 These things sort of have a runway that you have 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.760 to play out, and some changes might be easier than others. 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.520 So there are just a lot of factors that you 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.880 have to look at as we go through this process. 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.360 Yeah, and for somebody that would just you know, obviously 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.320 one rebut would be, oh, golf's never been better, this 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.960 has been an awesome year. Why why does this? You know, 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:36.760 why does the cycle have to stop? 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.360 You know? And it's funny. This is a debate or 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:44.079 discussion that's been happening for decades, if not centuries, around distance, 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:46.640 and it's something that just continues to get passed down 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.640 from one generation to the next. Right, And there's this 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.160 belief that every generation should hit the ball further than 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:58.840 the last, that somehow distance equals enjoyment. I'm gonna I'll 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.080 sit back and say I agree, read with everything you 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:02.960 said about the game is in a good place. Like 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.240 no one should read the report or misinterpret anything we're saying. 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.920 For us to be as sky is falling, the game's 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:10.320 in a bad place, we need to come in and 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.560 say it game's great. Like we rallied around as an 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.920 industry last year, and it's pretty unbelievable what we are 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.600 able to accomplish. Now we need to focus on retaining 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.000 those golfers that came to the game last year or 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.240 the lapse golfers that came back to the game. But 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:27.920 I'd like to think that you can sort of chew 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:30.600 them and walk at the same time. Right, what we're 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.720 saying is, as we look at trends, it's obvious golfers 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.080 hit the ball further now than they did ten years ago, 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:38.920 than they did thirty years ago. And if you play 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.960 that trend out, it's only going to continue. So what 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.199 happens when golfers continue to increase distance, Well, venues continue 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.320 to increase in length where they can. With that comes 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.640 capital costs, comes, maintenance costs, come, labor costs, comes everything. 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:55.880 Where do those costs ultimately go They get passed down 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.560 to the golfer. Right. Then you also look at pace 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.520 of play. You're extending the golf course, which means it's 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:02.800 going to take longer to play. So we're looking out 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.840 into the future and saying if golf, if hitting distance 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.679 continue to increase, golf courses are going to continue to increase. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.360 That impacts all of us and at some point it 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.000 has to stop, right, especially when you layer on top 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.920 you know, the environmental sustainability and the cost frankly associated 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.200 with maintaining a golf course right now, cost of water, 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.520 cost of labor, cost of nutrients are all outpacing inflation, 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.760 which means it's becoming more and more expensive to maintain 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.640 golf courses. Again, that expense ultimately gets passed on to us. 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.000 So this is it's a matter of do you continue 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.880 the conversation, do you hand off this challenge to the 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.160 next generation, or you try and be a bit more 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.360 proactive make some changes so that when we hand the 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.880 game off to the next generation, we can ensure that 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:49.880 we're building on the strengths of today and having a 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:51.080 healthy game into the future. 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:56.040 And regulation is currently in place, it's not a question 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.840 of whether we're regulator or not. It's a question of 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.560 recalibrating what the regulation standards are. 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.160 Right, That's exactly right. I mean, it's we have our 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:06.400 equipment standards, we have the rules in place, and it's 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:10.680 a it's a matter of looking at where where should 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.040 we look to potentially sort of tighten the screws a 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:13.880 little bit. So to speak. 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.840 With the you know announcement last week, you're in a 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:21.920 place and it outlined a twelve to eighteenth months period 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:27.720 before we hear kind of what's next, what's the timeline 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.240 involved with that period and what should we expect, what's 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.400 happening behind the scenes in this period. 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.680 So it is, it is. There's a lot of research 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:41.240 that's ongoing with our folks on our equipment standards team 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.760 as well as you know, our counterparts at the RNA 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.720 and their equipment standards team in Saint Andrews and in 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:50.480 that you know, uh, you know, working with manufacturers. Again, 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:52.720 a lot of them have already done research on these topics, 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.080 or a lot of them will initiate research on the topics. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.240 And this period of this area of interest is all 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.120 about the exchanging of information, right Believe it or not, 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.080 there is a high level of collaboration that happens within 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.360 the industry. A lot of people don't like to a 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.280 lot of people may not take the time to understand that. 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.440 But we're working with manufacturers, you know, on a daily, 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:16.000 weekly basis, and this will really continue that. It's just 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.920 we're going to have more specific topics around distance we're 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.200 going to want to look at with them, you know. 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.240 So as far as the next twelve to eighteen months, 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.120 I say, in one of the good things about our 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.680 process that we follow from an equipment rulemaking procedures that 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.880 it's transparent. We choreograph early on, here is what we're interested, 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.160 here's here's potentially where we'd like to go. The bad 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.760 part about it being transparent is you're putting a lot 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.080 of things out there and that are going to generate 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.320 questions and you just don't have the answers to those 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:45.640 questions yet. Right, So, as we go through the research, 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.120 as we begin to look at solutions, look at the knobs, 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.280 we'll have a better idea about what potential solutions might be, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:57.080 what timelines we might have to implement those solutions. Some 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.800 could be short, some could be long term. To use 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.000 my local rules, do you make it a do you 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.359 make it an overall rule change? So there's just a 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.119 lot of questions we have to answer, and most of that, frankly, 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.159 will be done you know, behind the scenes over the 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.120 next you know, twelve twelve or so months. 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:17.600 In the document, you guys define this period working with 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:22.800 golf stakeholders and a comment period for golf stakeholders who 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:28.080 are golf stakeholders in it for this exercise, you know, 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.359 I think that was something that a lot of people wondered, 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.399 Can I just write a comment? 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:34.639 So, first of all I mean, I would tell you that, 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.000 you know, the USGA is a nonprofit as and as 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.240 a membership organization. As the governing body, we're always you know, 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.520 our doors, our phone lines, our email boxes are always open, 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.239 so people should never hesitate to reach out to us 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.879 if they have questions, inquiry, suggestions. You know, as we 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.399 as we look at this, we are really in a 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.720 technical stage, right, and so it is the primary stakeholder 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.720 is going to be the manufacturing community. And then outside 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.480 of that, we also have you know, the major tours 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.160 that are a key stakeholder that the players. We also 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.800 have you know, at the amateur level, you have our 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.680 allied golf associations who are out there running state amateurs, 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.080 you know, junior tours. So it's a lot of the 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:19.720 groups that represent golf or subsets of golfers. And again 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.000 it's important that everybody's voice is heard, which is why 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:23.480 we have this process we go through. 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:28.080 Yeah, and for the collaboration standpoint with manufacturers, I imagine, 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:30.840 like some of the stuff you outlined, like changing the 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:34.639 MOI on a club and seeing the impacts that have, 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.520 like that's something you have to work directly with manufacturers on. 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:42.600 Right, It is I mean, look, our team. Again, they 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.679 can undertake the research, but it's a lot of validation 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.720 and thought sharing that needs to happen between manufacturers and 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.040 our teams. That's just it's critical for success, and they've been. 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.120 Manufacturers have been very open with collaborating on these types 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:57.960 of things with you guys historically. 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.160 Yeah, they have been. It's again, I think it provides 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.439 sideline into what we're thinking from an equipment standard standpoint, 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.400 but allows for them to share their views because, as 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.760 I say, whatever decisions are made, we need to make 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.880 sure that they're fully informed, right, and so we need 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.760 to validate the research or that that we're seeing, but 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.080 we also need to make sure that when it translates 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.920 out into you know, the marketplace or into the plane 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:25.960 of the game, that we've thought through everything. We don't 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:27.840 want to make any hasty decisions here. 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.200 With the Distance Inside report that came out last year, 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:35.480 were there any you know, big revelations for you personally 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.760 or and also for your team. Were there specific things 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.560 that really stuck out more than others with that report? 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:45.960 Yeah, I mean, I think the number one thing that's 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:49.520 stuck out is, frankly, just how this does impact all 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.520 of us as golfers, whether that be you know, the 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.320 pace of play or the cost of that gets passed 0:19:55.320 --> 0:20:00.359 along the golfers, but also distance. It's actually much thicker 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:05.080 than just the long hitting golfers. Right. It's on all sides. 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.159 There's a stat that I believe it's only eight percent 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:10.200 of golf courses in the United States have a tea 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.399 that's short enough for the shorter hitting players, for the 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.320 shortest hitting players, right, and so distances, there's issues on 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:18.119 all sides. When we talk about a game that we 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:22.840 want to be welcoming and inclusive, we know that it 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.199 can be that there are barriers to entry. We know 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.960 that it can be intimidating. I'd say it's pretty intimidating 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:30.240 if you come out to start the game and there's 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:31.439 not a set of tees that you can play and 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:33.920 go out and enjoy yourself. So we're trying to take 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.480 a really a holistic view of this. This is not 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.840 just about equipment. I know, it's where everybody wants to go. 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:41.760 I know that you know obviously issue in the area 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:43.919 of interest in the research topics, but there is a 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.119 huge golf course component to this as well that we 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.520 want to look at. And the golfer experience component as 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:52.120