Speaker 1: Episode to sixty three, How to Negotiate a higher salary
Speaker 1: in any field with Mandy Wood of Santas. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to save money,
Speaker 1: embrace simplicity right, and liver with your life. Here your
Speaker 1: host Jen and Jill. M m m m m m m.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast. My name is Jen,
Speaker 1: my name is Jill, and today is required listening. So
Speaker 1: if you just turned on this episode by accident, don't
Speaker 1: turn it off. It's time. This is going to change
Speaker 1: your life. If anything, is going to change your mindset,
Speaker 1: and then eventually you will change your life. So mandatory listener,
Speaker 1: required listening. There will be a test at the end,
Speaker 1: and that test is you negotiating for more pay and
Speaker 1: reporting back that you have won your negotiations. Amen. Amen.
Speaker 1: So we are really excited to get into this with
Speaker 1: Mandy because negotiating is something that we we don't just
Speaker 1: do for our salaries. We negotiate prices on Facebook marketplace,
Speaker 1: we negotiate deals in self employment. We negotiate a lot
Speaker 1: of things and it starts here. So the more you negotiate,
Speaker 1: this is a skill that you have to get better at.
Speaker 1: So don't say I'm not a good negotiator. Don't say
Speaker 1: I'm in a field that can't be negotiated. Uh listen,
Speaker 1: say try saying that at the end of this episode. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or maybe that that could be your mindset now and
Speaker 1: especially this is for you if that's what you're thinking
Speaker 1: and hear me out. I come from the field of
Speaker 1: social work, have lots of teacher friends like your traditional
Speaker 1: fields where you think there's not much room to increase
Speaker 1: to be able to negotiate, And Mandy gave me more
Speaker 1: food for thought and things to consider and really challenged
Speaker 1: and push back on some of that mindset that we
Speaker 1: all need to hear. So yeah, let's do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but first, this episode is brought to you by Mariah Carey.
Speaker 1: Thanks Maria, because all I want for Christmas is for
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Speaker 1: I didn't intentionally put a arugula in the smoothie, and
Speaker 1: I might stop doing that now because it really took over.
Speaker 1: That flavor really took over. Ye heard about it, that
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Speaker 1: that is what we do in the Patreon. It's a
Speaker 1: lot of fun. And if you're here UH and you
Speaker 1: are interested in increasing your income, we don't actually have
Speaker 1: any other like Salary based episodes is our first one,
Speaker 1: so again required listening, very excited. But if you're looking
Speaker 1: to increase your income, we've got our Frugal side Hustle
Speaker 1: series UH, and we have just episodes on starting a
Speaker 1: side business. We've got episode two fifty two how to
Speaker 1: make more Money with a side Business UH, and then
Speaker 1: episode to forty two Digital Products with Alie die Up.
Speaker 1: That one's really good, so definitely check out some of
Speaker 1: our other episodes on increasing your income after you listen
Speaker 1: to this one. Yes, order, queue up always more. Absolutely so.
Speaker 1: Mandy needs no introduction. You probably know her as the
Speaker 1: award winning co host of the Brown Ambition podcast, but
Speaker 1: she is also the founder of The Mandy Moneymakers, which
Speaker 1: is her leadership and career coaching community for women of color.
Speaker 1: She has been featured on The Dr Phil Show, The
Speaker 1: New York Times, CNBC, CNN, a bunch of other places,
Speaker 1: and for good reasons. She is an expert at what
Speaker 1: she talks about and we are excited to share this
Speaker 1: interview with you. Now it's not waste another manic Mandy, Mandy,
Speaker 1: welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. We are super excited
Speaker 1: to talk about the subject, and we're super excited to
Speaker 1: talk about it with you. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Oh such an important topic. Well, we'll tell our individual stories,
Speaker 1: I'm sure throughout and got a special lightning round and
Speaker 1: all of that. But just to jump in, Mandy, can
Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about your career, how
Speaker 1: you began, like first job stuff and what it taught
Speaker 1: you about salary negotiation kind of like take us on
Speaker 1: that journey if you will. Yeah. Sure, So my first
Speaker 1: you know, big girl job after college, I got a job.
Speaker 1: I studied journalism. I studied print journalism, which was real,
Speaker 1: real smart. I graduated in two thousand and nine when
Speaker 1: the industry was dying, well it wasn't dying, but it
Speaker 1: was at this huge transition point and print in general
Speaker 1: was never going to be the same. And I got
Speaker 1: a job. I was lucky to get a job in newspapers,
Speaker 1: writing for print. And about a week or maybe even
Speaker 1: the same week that I started that job, I got
Speaker 1: an email from a magazine that I had interned at
Speaker 1: UH during college and they were looking for basically a
Speaker 1: fact checker and it was a job in New York City.
Speaker 1: And that was my first time really having that career,
Speaker 1: sort of like a crossroads where I was figuring out,
Speaker 1: am I gonna quit after just I just joined this job,
Speaker 1: and I feel so grateful and as a recession, am
Speaker 1: I really going to do this? And I ended up
Speaker 1: coming to my senses and taking that job in New
Speaker 1: York because I did actually really want a career in
Speaker 1: magazines and it was New York and I'm from Georgia,
Speaker 1: and you know, Atlanta is hot now, but it was
Speaker 1: not it in two thousand and nine when it came
Speaker 1: to journalism, jobs. So that was my first time with
Speaker 1: like a big quit, and I did not negotiate that
Speaker 1: first time. I was just so happy. It was maybe
Speaker 1: a fifteen thousand dollars more than what I was making.
Speaker 1: But you know, recently I went back to my emails
Speaker 1: from those early days. I'm working on a book, and
Speaker 1: I was like trying to go back and put myself
Speaker 1: in the shoes of what I was feeling. And thank goodness,
Speaker 1: I wrote a lot of emails back then. It was
Speaker 1: like before texting became huge. And I didn't negotiate, but
Speaker 1: I realized I didn't have to because I was in
Speaker 1: touch with the woman who referred me. She was the
Speaker 1: one leaving the job, and she was so sweet. She
Speaker 1: made sure I knew what to ask for. She was like,
Speaker 1: you need to ask for forty five that's the budget
Speaker 1: for the role. And she really helped me in that sense,
Speaker 1: and I was flung into the real world and left
Speaker 1: to my own devices. From there, I very quickly fell
Speaker 1: on my butt. That job that I thought was my
Speaker 1: dream job. I ended up getting laid off from just
Speaker 1: three months later, and I was back on the job market,
Speaker 1: really struggling. I barely had any savings since I've only
Speaker 1: been working for a few months, and I was lucky
Speaker 1: to get another job opportunity, and this time it was
Speaker 1: a huge pay. It was a huge downgrade. I was
Speaker 1: went from making forty five K to thirty five K.
Speaker 1: Got the offer, googled to see how to negotiate. Should
Speaker 1: I negotiate kind of like, asked my uncle. Everyone's got
Speaker 1: that like smart, I don't know the one who seems
Speaker 1: savvy in your family that you call up for advice.
Speaker 1: And he was like, yeah, I asked for more, and
Speaker 1: everyone was like, yeah, women don't ask for more, so
Speaker 1: just ask for more. And so I did and I
Speaker 1: heard nope, nope. And then I learned in that moment
Speaker 1: that just asking really isn't the only thing that matters.
Speaker 1: Plucking up your courage to ask is important, But if
Speaker 1: you don't have leverage, if you don't if your value
Speaker 1: isn't clear to the company you're applying to, you're more
Speaker 1: than likely gonna hear no. And so that was a
Speaker 1: real pivotal moment for me and a lesson that if
Speaker 1: I want to be successful negotiating and making up you know,
Speaker 1: this lost ground because I took a huge pay cut.
Speaker 1: You know, I was going to have to work really
Speaker 1: hard to prove my value. And from there I got what.
Speaker 1: I had cracked the code of getting over that fear
Speaker 1: of asking. But from there I had to figure out, Okay,
Speaker 1: how do I get to a position where they are
Speaker 1: so blown away by me and want me on their
Speaker 1: team that they're going to say yes, what I negotiate? Oh, Mandy,
Speaker 1: this is so so helpful. And I feel as though,
Speaker 1: is that kind of missing puzzle piece to this whole
Speaker 1: negotiation topic. And I hear it a lot from my husband.
Speaker 1: He works in some kind of like tech space to
Speaker 1: some degree and and is responsible for hiring, and I
Speaker 1: hear this from him a lot, like all these people
Speaker 1: are just asking for massive salaries, but they're not showing
Speaker 1: me what they can do. And you've just verbalized it
Speaker 1: in a way that makes so much sense that it
Speaker 1: needs to be connected to something. It doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: we have to have decades of experience, but an ability
Speaker 1: to show And here's why not just because we live
Speaker 1: in a world where everybody's asking for more, Like okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: so everyone's just asking for more, So what what sets
Speaker 1: you apart? And and yeah, I'm excited to hear your
Speaker 1: feedback on kind of how we do that, how we
Speaker 1: show that. Yeah. Absolutely, I actually developed a five step
Speaker 1: method for negotiating that has nothing to do with sitting
Speaker 1: at the negotiating table and saying stuff. Everyone thinks that
Speaker 1: that's when the negotiation happens. It's like when you get
Speaker 1: an offer in your hands and then you go back
Speaker 1: and forth, and all those like tropes of negotiating, like
Speaker 1: the firm handshake and having those masculine tendencies and you know,
Speaker 1: playing hardball and having a poker face, like all those
Speaker 1: sort of like masculine analogies started to come out, and
Speaker 1: for me, it's just nothing like that. And especially because
Speaker 1: most of my the people I work with, our women
Speaker 1: of color, and the rules are just a little bit
Speaker 1: different for us, you know, in general when we walk
Speaker 1: into a negotiation, and based on my career, you know,
Speaker 1: over the course of a decade, when I started to
Speaker 1: finally get it how to show my impact and actually
Speaker 1: bring excellence to the table and you know, of course
Speaker 1: learn how to be a better negotiator, but also create
Speaker 1: a career that was attracting me to or attracting opportunities
Speaker 1: to me that were juicy that could pay me that
Speaker 1: we're exciting, that really wanted to have me. And I
Speaker 1: got more and more successful at negotiating. I was able
Speaker 1: to ten x my income from thirty K to over
Speaker 1: three K and just a decade, going from that girl
Speaker 1: who got laid off from a magazine job to then
Speaker 1: negotiating you know, multi six figure compensation packages. And it's
Speaker 1: from not just learning how to negotiate, but all these
Speaker 1: steps that I sort of break down and what I
Speaker 1: call the Maker method. And I teach this method in
Speaker 1: a free negotiating masterclass um once in a while. I
Speaker 1: just did one last night actually, and I it's so fine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but and and it blows people's mind because I know
Speaker 1: people come to me and they want me to like
Speaker 1: tell them the secret sauce to negotiating more and my
Speaker 1: secret sauce is just different. I I really fundamentally understand
Speaker 1: because I've been on both sides as someone who's been
Speaker 1: the negotiator, like as a job candidate and also as
Speaker 1: a hiring manager myself, like your husband. I was a
Speaker 1: senior director and I was hiring you know, dozens of
Speaker 1: roles over the course of like five years when I
Speaker 1: was working in fintech and I know what it's like
Speaker 1: to be on the other side and to be asking
Speaker 1: for more budget. You know, to negotiate with people, and
Speaker 1: what makes the people who are successful at negotiating successful
Speaker 1: And it really comes back to they have to really
Speaker 1: want to hire you. They have to be excited about you,
Speaker 1: because it takes time and effort to like go ask
Speaker 1: for more money to get additional approvals from HR or
Speaker 1: other senior leaders at your company to free up more
Speaker 1: budget for someone they want to They have to fight
Speaker 1: for you. They have to want to fight for you,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people, I would say aren't spending
Speaker 1: enough time creating a strong professional brand that makes companies
Speaker 1: really excited to work with them. And of course that
Speaker 1: starts with like great work product, but it's also getting
Speaker 1: your work seen and heard internally at your company and
Speaker 1: also externally so that recruiters and hiring managers can find
Speaker 1: you and they're coming to poach you, versus you always
Speaker 1: being the one applying for jobs. I do find that
Speaker 1: when you are the one being poached, you just have
Speaker 1: more leverage to start with because they have come to you,
Speaker 1: tapped you on the shoulder, and they're like, we want you,
Speaker 1: and you go into that negotiation a lot stronger. You know,
Speaker 1: that is such an interesting concept. And think something I
Speaker 1: didn't like think about is like being poached, Like how
Speaker 1: do you put yourself in a position to get there?
Speaker 1: I'm really good at it, I have been. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: the secret is you have to be really easy to
Speaker 1: be found. I talked to you about this earlier. So
Speaker 1: and maybe it's because I I was in a field where,
Speaker 1: you know, I was a journalist, so my name was
Speaker 1: on my work and it was already, you know, a
Speaker 1: little bit out there. But I had to become more
Speaker 1: and more comfortable sharing my work product and getting noticed.
Speaker 1: So and poaching was such an important pivotal part of
Speaker 1: my negotiating story too. And how I ten next my
Speaker 1: salary because over the course of ten years I did
Speaker 1: quit jobs six times and exponentially increase my income with
Speaker 1: each quit because I was always doing it strategically and
Speaker 1: able to negotiate more. But I only applied for one
Speaker 1: of those jobs those six times. The other five times
Speaker 1: they came to me, and it was such an important part,
Speaker 1: like I said, of giving myself stronger leverage. Point. So
Speaker 1: the reason you want to be poached A couple of
Speaker 1: things one like it makes it less of a burden
Speaker 1: on you to go out there and be applying for
Speaker 1: jobs and like throwing spaghetti at the wall to see
Speaker 1: what sticks. If you focus on creating great work, creating
Speaker 1: a good reputation internally at your company, just being a
Speaker 1: good employee, being kind to your colleagues because you never
Speaker 1: know where they're going to end up, and then actually
Speaker 1: being someone who shares your work so that can easily
Speaker 1: be sharing on LinkedIn. I know for a lot of
Speaker 1: my my clients and the people in my community, it
Speaker 1: can be kind of a hump to get over bragging
Speaker 1: about yourself. It's seen as like, I don't know self
Speaker 1: promotion and oh it's social media and it's so cringe.
Speaker 1: But I'm not talking about posting a thirst trap on
Speaker 1: i G. I'm talking about like thing about it. No,
Speaker 1: I like, maybe that's for you, but some people know.
Speaker 1: But LinkedIn is so incredibly powerful and I was an
Speaker 1: early adopter of LinkedIn, and all those job interviews that
Speaker 1: I got, they either came from LinkedIn, someone who found
Speaker 1: me on LinkedIn, got my email from LinkedIn. So you
Speaker 1: have to be able to be found by the people
Speaker 1: who have the power to hire you. And the reality
Speaker 1: is that very much today, like the majority of recruiters
Speaker 1: are finding candidates through LinkedIn, and the juiciest job offers,
Speaker 1: the juiciest job opportunities. They're recruiting for those roles before
Speaker 1: they even posted online. So if you really want to
Speaker 1: be in the running for the best job opportunities, you
Speaker 1: need to be poachable, like you need to be found.
Speaker 1: And when they find your profile on LinkedIn, what are
Speaker 1: they going to see? Is it going to be a
Speaker 1: ghost town? You know? Are you going to have your
Speaker 1: key accomplishments there? Are you going to be clear about
Speaker 1: who you are and what you offer and how you
Speaker 1: can be the solution to their problem? You know, really
Speaker 1: taking some time. It's not something you need to do
Speaker 1: every day. It's like kind of a set and forgod thing.
Speaker 1: Just update your LinkedIn, make sure it has your key
Speaker 1: accomplishments here, key skills like where you're working now, so
Speaker 1: that recruiters can find you. And when you get poached,
Speaker 1: it does give you that extra bit of leverage because
Speaker 1: they are coming to you and they know they have
Speaker 1: to woo you. They know they have to entice you
Speaker 1: to come to them because you're gainfully employed already, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: LinkedIn does seem to be the spot just kind of
Speaker 1: regularly updating that there's so much that happens there. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a networking tool, and it really does
Speaker 1: create some amazing networking opportunities and job opportunities. Do you find, Mandy,
Speaker 1: are there particular fields that you're more likely to be
Speaker 1: poached within? Like what kinds of fields? Are we primarily
Speaker 1: talking all of them? I mean, the women in my
Speaker 1: Mandy moneymakers community, they range from school teachers to you know,
Speaker 1: vps at big tech companies, and I see them getting
Speaker 1: posted all the time, like they work in government jobs.
Speaker 1: They work for city government, federal government, for the private sector,
Speaker 1: for the nonprofit sector. It happens in every industry, so
Speaker 1: no one gets a free pass. The potential is truly there.
Speaker 1: And it's because recruiters, like they're busy, they want to
Speaker 1: find the best fit for a job. And there's really
Speaker 1: no better place to source candidates now unless you're you know,
Speaker 1: using a talent agency or like a recruitment agency then
Speaker 1: linked In, And especially for like as a hiring manager myself,
Speaker 1: even though I had a recruiting team that I could use,
Speaker 1: I still like I knew better than anyone else what
Speaker 1: kind of person I was looking for, and I was
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn just as much as they were trying to
Speaker 1: find them. So I do believe LinkedIn is bay. That
Speaker 1: being said, it's not the only lever that you can
Speaker 1: pull when it comes to getting noticed and getting poached.
Speaker 1: You just want to show up where your next employer
Speaker 1: is hanging out, so that may be a professional conference.
Speaker 1: Like Jen, I met you at finn Con. I didn't
Speaker 1: know I was going to meet you, but I thought, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm starting I have this new business that I've started
Speaker 1: in the past year and a half. I kind of
Speaker 1: want to reintroduce myself to the finncom community. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna go and hang out and I'm sure, you know,
Speaker 1: making connections there, maybe we'll lead to some opportunities. I
Speaker 1: didn't know what they were, but hey, you have a podcast.
Speaker 1: We met and then you invited me to come on
Speaker 1: the show. So why don't you put yourself out there
Speaker 1: and go to an industry conference if that's where people
Speaker 1: that you want to get in front of our hanging out.
Speaker 1: If it's not a conference, maybe it's a particular networking
Speaker 1: group or it's events, you know, like one day events
Speaker 1: that are being held in your industry. We're going to
Speaker 1: like those small networking communities that maybe you get through work,
Speaker 1: like an employee resource group or something like that, but
Speaker 1: put yourself in a position where you can be noticed
Speaker 1: by people who could potentially hire you. Yeah, we think
Speaker 1: a lot of these are like reserved for entrepreneurs, but
Speaker 1: there are. There's a lot of benefit if, even if
Speaker 1: you don't want to be self employed, to be more
Speaker 1: gainfully employed by attending these things, for sure. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: I'm hey, I'm an introvert, like hardcore, so I don't
Speaker 1: and I and I always say that because the first
Speaker 1: thing people say, they're like, especially when I talk about
Speaker 1: putting yourself out there on LinkedIn or going to a conference,
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I'm an introvert. It's hard. Oh, come on,
Speaker 1: Like you can put yourself out of your comfort zone
Speaker 1: and get it done. I mean, what's the I feel
Speaker 1: like the downside the cons just outweigh the pros. The
Speaker 1: con is that maybe you'll be a little uncomfortable, it'll
Speaker 1: be a little awkward, you know, it'll take some practice
Speaker 1: for you to get comfortable being there. But the pro,
Speaker 1: oh is that you could wind up with such a
Speaker 1: great opportunity that's going to not just pay you more,
Speaker 1: but value you more, give you room for growth. There's
Speaker 1: too many upsides, you know. Yeah, I know. I'm an
Speaker 1: introvert to and I think the reason I talked to
Speaker 1: you is because you wrote an article that I really
Speaker 1: appreciated and I think, well, we should talk about it
Speaker 1: in a little bit, but about you, like you being
Speaker 1: a hiring manager and fighting for an employee of yours,
Speaker 1: and I thought it was like fantastic, and that's and
Speaker 1: then I just like I had to sit down because
Speaker 1: I was pregnant, and that's how we that's how we
Speaker 1: got to where we are today. I just had to
Speaker 1: sit down next to you. I know that. Yeah, it's encouraging,
Speaker 1: and I think highlighting the mindset shift necessary in this
Speaker 1: whole space, because my mind did go to Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: this sounds great for people in the tech space or
Speaker 1: corporate space or business people. I'm accustomed to the field
Speaker 1: of social work or the circle's I run in, or
Speaker 1: a lot of teachers, and I know that there's more
Speaker 1: options than what I think meets the eye or what
Speaker 1: we're kind of told or boxed into. But when it
Speaker 1: comes to poaching, Like, I don't think I have ever
Speaker 1: heard of a teacher getting poached, but maybe it happens.
Speaker 1: But what you're saying is if we put ourselves out
Speaker 1: there more and more, like there are certainly, as I'm
Speaker 1: hearing you talk, I'm like, yeah, there are conferences for teachers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are things teachers do that are outside of the classroom. Yes,
Speaker 1: there are ways for social workers to move up in
Speaker 1: their skill set and ability to earn more money. So
Speaker 1: I think it's it's more so the mindset shift than
Speaker 1: it is kind of getting locked into this is what
Speaker 1: this field looks like, and we don't have access to
Speaker 1: any of the other things that other people have access to.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe the earning potential overall might be a
Speaker 1: little bit less than the text space or some of
Speaker 1: these other higher earning maybe, but there's still opportunity to
Speaker 1: grow within them. I think that's what's being highlighted, Like
Speaker 1: there are still these opportunes. You can still be on LinkedIn,
Speaker 1: you can still be going to conferences and learning more
Speaker 1: about the ways that you can take the next step
Speaker 1: in your career and find the things that you're more um, yeah, passionate,
Speaker 1: about So it's it's just encouraging, and that's what I'm
Speaker 1: highlighting for everybody, because I know we've got people listening
Speaker 1: who are not in your high earning potential fields, and
Speaker 1: yet there's still opportunities which told they're not higher any
Speaker 1: potential fields. It's funny because I have a lot of um.
Speaker 1: I mean, I told I work with so many different
Speaker 1: people from different backgrounds. It's such a privilege. I love
Speaker 1: getting to talk to so many different women every day,
Speaker 1: social work, nonprofit workers, school teachers, higher education workers, and
Speaker 1: in this I don't know how to bundle that group
Speaker 1: into one category, but I would definitely say it's it's
Speaker 1: a group of careers and industries and specialties that have
Speaker 1: just been so undervalued. And it's almost like that that's
Speaker 1: based rely eyes upon the largely women who occupy those
Speaker 1: those roles. I don't think we can both agree that's
Speaker 1: usually women in those fields are dominating. It almost relies
Speaker 1: upon us not believing that we have more opportunity and
Speaker 1: that we have potential to be earning more so that
Speaker 1: we stay stuck and we stay where we are. But
Speaker 1: I've just seen it when I when I talked to women,
Speaker 1: I really work on the mindset of really, who told
Speaker 1: you that you can't get poached? And who told you
Speaker 1: that there's maybe not another school that would pay you
Speaker 1: more and be a better environment for you to work at.
Speaker 1: And often it's just a story we tell ourselves, and
Speaker 1: because we believe it, we just start to like make
Speaker 1: that we start to believe it and talk amongst ourselves
Speaker 1: and we're all kind of sharing that same mentality and
Speaker 1: it's like this misery stut where we're all just like
Speaker 1: staying stuck. But really, if you if you keep poking,
Speaker 1: which I do, and as a coach, just like, but
Speaker 1: who said that? Is there? Is there? Like a stat
Speaker 1: is there a um? There was there a speech given
Speaker 1: by the president of school Teachers. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: like where does that come from? And when I challenge that,
Speaker 1: you start to see them start to realize you can
Speaker 1: create a different story for yourself. You really can. And
Speaker 1: take school teachers for example, I have a woman named
Speaker 1: Wrenna Warrenna who's in my NNDY Moneymaker's community. She's a
Speaker 1: school teacher in the d m V area, and she
Speaker 1: really wanted to break into tech and she has been
Speaker 1: finding scholarships to attend an AFRO tech conference, which is
Speaker 1: this largely black employee focused tech conference that pops up
Speaker 1: in different cities, and she's putting herself in these spaces
Speaker 1: and getting these cool opportunities. She found a scholarship, you know,
Speaker 1: and she found people who wanted to sponsor her, and
Speaker 1: she's well on her way. And at the same time,
Speaker 1: while she's working on her transition into tech, she also
Speaker 1: quit her job as a school teacher and found another
Speaker 1: district that was more conducive to what she needed and
Speaker 1: that paid her more. You know. So I teachers can
Speaker 1: job hop just like anyone else. And also just really
Speaker 1: quickly about poaching. Maybe there's this perception that when I
Speaker 1: say poach, I mean like a recruiter or the senior
Speaker 1: executive at a company from on high is looking through
Speaker 1: LinkedIn and selecting people. But it doesn't always work out
Speaker 1: that way. Like the people sitting next to you can
Speaker 1: poach you. So the woman who I used to work
Speaker 1: with as an intern, you know, she technically poached me
Speaker 1: for that job at that magazine because she remembered me.
Speaker 1: She reached out. She was like, I like you, I
Speaker 1: want to put you up for this role that to
Speaker 1: me is poaching too. So when teachers work amongst each
Speaker 1: other and you get to know teachers and other districts,
Speaker 1: other states, Like I just had a good friend of
Speaker 1: mine here in New York. She's a principal in the city.
Speaker 1: Friend of hers was an assistant principal at another school
Speaker 1: further away and was like, I really want to work
Speaker 1: with you. They have a job opening up. Come and
Speaker 1: she got that job. So like it happens even in
Speaker 1: the education space and don't want folks, I think it doesn't.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Mandy. So then when it comes to so
Speaker 1: even beyond poaching, our own negotiations, what advice do you
Speaker 1: have for people, like avoid it backfiring on us? Because
Speaker 1: we have heard those stories of like trying for something
Speaker 1: and then not only not getting it, but potentially like
Speaker 1: not getting the job at all. What to do if
Speaker 1: it does backfire? What stories have you heard? How many?
Speaker 1: Where are they? I feel like whenever people say that,
Speaker 1: I'm like, when I asked for what story, it's like,
Speaker 1: maybe it was just one. It was like a friend
Speaker 1: of a friend of someone who saw it on the internet, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're out there. It's mostly when they're trying to change jobs.
Speaker 1: Maybe not necessarily within a job trying to negotiate. But
Speaker 1: but I've I know people who have tried to kind
Speaker 1: of pin employers against each other and then like lost
Speaker 1: out on both of them. So I think it's usually
Speaker 1: in the job change space. But yeah, either one that
Speaker 1: you want to speak to, negotiating in the space you're
Speaker 1: already in, or in a job change. Yeah, So how
Speaker 1: to do this well, I guess negotiating well so that
Speaker 1: it doesn't backfire. I mean, I hear you saying it
Speaker 1: usually doesn't. But what can people do to set themselves
Speaker 1: up best? Yeah? Absolutely? You know, I mentioned in the
Speaker 1: five step method, the first thing I talked about was
Speaker 1: making them excited to hire you. The second step is
Speaker 1: really important, and it's attracting multiple offers. So you brought
Speaker 1: up how do you juggle those multiple offers without like
Speaker 1: burning bridges and and upsetting people. Um, it is a
Speaker 1: delicate balance, and I'm not going to say that it's not.
Speaker 1: It's a lot easier when you just talk to one person.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like trying to date multiple people at
Speaker 1: one time and keep the name straights and names, the
Speaker 1: names and birthdays and special dates like straight. You know,
Speaker 1: So you have to understand that it's going to be
Speaker 1: a little bit challenging in that way. But I think
Speaker 1: if you approach it from place of honesty and transparency
Speaker 1: throughout the hiring process. So for example, if you're talking
Speaker 1: to employer A and during the middle of the interview process,
Speaker 1: Employer B comes in the picture, they reach out to
Speaker 1: you on LinkedIn, and you are excited about that opportunity,
Speaker 1: you know, telling Employer A, you know, I want to
Speaker 1: continue interviewing with you, but I also want to be transparent.
Speaker 1: I'm getting further along in an interview with with another firm,
Speaker 1: and you can use that in a way that's not
Speaker 1: going to burn bridges, but just helps them understand that
Speaker 1: you're a hot commodity and that there's someone else who's
Speaker 1: interested in working with you. I would bring that up
Speaker 1: for sure with the company that you ultimately want to
Speaker 1: work with and kind of tell them in a way that's, hey,
Speaker 1: I just want to be transparent. I may have another
Speaker 1: potential offer on the table, especially if you're in a
Speaker 1: situation where the interview has been dragging on or you've
Speaker 1: been waiting on an offer and they haven't like just
Speaker 1: picked up their feet and like done it. You can
Speaker 1: use that to kind of get them moving and say,
Speaker 1: you know, you guys are my first choice, but I
Speaker 1: do want to be transparent. I have another offer potentially
Speaker 1: coming in. I just wanted to know how soon do
Speaker 1: you think we'll be able to get an offer on
Speaker 1: the table. And then when you do get that offer,
Speaker 1: let's say that it's less than what competitor employer BE
Speaker 1: has offered you or looks like they're going to offer you.
Speaker 1: Then just be transparent and honest again and say, y'all
Speaker 1: are my top pick, but I have to be honest. Um,
Speaker 1: this other offer that I am looking at right now
Speaker 1: out is offering me ten k more k moreps whacking
Speaker 1: my mic or whatever it may be. And let them
Speaker 1: know now if they say, how dare you? You know
Speaker 1: this is our best and final offer and you should
Speaker 1: be grateful and blah blah blah, and like they hang
Speaker 1: up the phone, like that's the worst case scenario. Who
Speaker 1: wants to work there? Anyway? You know, you kind of
Speaker 1: have to use this as an opportunity to see who
Speaker 1: you're working with and how they're going to handle a
Speaker 1: situation like that, that's the worst case scenario more likely,
Speaker 1: and what I see is that at that point they've
Speaker 1: invested time, resources, people power into recruiting you, going through
Speaker 1: the interview process, and if you followed all the steps
Speaker 1: that I outline about making them excited to hire you,
Speaker 1: you know, really knowing your value and illustrating that making
Speaker 1: them fall in love with you and want you, at
Speaker 1: that point, they're not going to want to go back
Speaker 1: to the drawing board. They're gonna want to make it work.
Speaker 1: And that's when it comes back to are you that
Speaker 1: person that someone wants to fight for? That someone wants
Speaker 1: to go send that email to HR and ask for
Speaker 1: the extra money and be like, oh, I really want
Speaker 1: to work with Jillian Um, she's got another offer. What
Speaker 1: can we do? I'm afraid she's gonna you know, we're
Speaker 1: gonna lose her. That's what you want to happen. If
Speaker 1: you've really illustrated your value and they are excited to
Speaker 1: have you, it's very unlikely that they're just going to
Speaker 1: burn that bridge and close the door on you just
Speaker 1: because you know you've brought a competing offer to the table.
Speaker 1: Nice and if it does, I guess if it backfires,
Speaker 1: like why would you really want to work there? Anyway?
Speaker 1: That's that's really had to go with the worst case scenario.
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of other positive outcomes, yes, like I
Speaker 1: see it every day positive. Like my one of my
Speaker 1: favorite stories Jasmine. She's a someone who reached When I
Speaker 1: first started my business, I was doing free coaching just
Speaker 1: to see if I was good at it. I was,
Speaker 1: it's fine, man. And this um, this young woman Jasmine
Speaker 1: in Texas, she works in higher ed and she was
Speaker 1: a researcher. UM. I think she like studied blood or
Speaker 1: something like that. She had to be in the office
Speaker 1: um to do it during the pandemic with a toddler
Speaker 1: at home. I don't know how she did it. And
Speaker 1: when she reached out to me, she had like no
Speaker 1: negotiating experience and like and many people in academia thought
Speaker 1: that she was kind of stuck. And she was earning
Speaker 1: like fifty K at the time and started to put
Speaker 1: herself out there apply get on LinkedIn work her network.
Speaker 1: She ended up fielding three different job offers at the
Speaker 1: same time. Within a span of like three days. She
Speaker 1: had three different job offers. Offer one with seventy three,
Speaker 1: Offer two was ninety, Offer three was one ten right,
Speaker 1: And that's the power of her managing those different offers,
Speaker 1: walking away when she got the low ball offer, negotiating
Speaker 1: more based on her second offer from offer number three.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a woman who did not think
Speaker 1: that she could negotiate before. So I see it happened.
Speaker 1: I know the power of it. Um So I'm a
Speaker 1: huge proponent of listen, juggling those different dates different. If
Speaker 1: you dated around a lot, then you'll be really good
Speaker 1: at this. Or if you didn't, now's your chance, Mandy,
Speaker 1: not to put you on the spot. I know this
Speaker 1: question is not in our outline to you, but I
Speaker 1: know we're talking a lot about kind of negotiating when
Speaker 1: changing jobs to some of these same principles apply if
Speaker 1: we're just negotiating within the job we're already in. Or
Speaker 1: do you recommend kind of job hopping a lot to
Speaker 1: be able to get the higher wages or what are
Speaker 1: you seeing what could be applied for someone who they
Speaker 1: really like their job they want to make more. There's
Speaker 1: a method to my madness. You know. I focus a
Speaker 1: lot on creating a strong professional brand so that you
Speaker 1: can attract the juiciest job offers to you. But it
Speaker 1: also is impossible to deny an employees excellence when they
Speaker 1: are being you know, they're sharing it with the world,
Speaker 1: They're getting great feedback from people outside the company and
Speaker 1: within the company. All the things that go into creating
Speaker 1: a strong professional brand. You know, as a worker today
Speaker 1: that helps they help you in your current job. Maybe
Speaker 1: put yourself up for a promotion, or get the sense
Speaker 1: among people at your company that you're a hot commodity.
Speaker 1: We might lose Mandy because we see her getting awards
Speaker 1: making at events. We're not dumb. We know that our
Speaker 1: competitors are going to be are going to find her
Speaker 1: and want to work with her, So what can we
Speaker 1: do to retain her. I was a part of many
Speaker 1: conversations as a hiring manager about retention, and you would
Speaker 1: have to identify who's the greatest flight risk on your team.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't just people who are fed up and
Speaker 1: want to leave. It's like people who have the potential
Speaker 1: to get poached from your competitors, and that's you know,
Speaker 1: those are conversations that hiring managers are having. So I
Speaker 1: do think that everything I talk about can apply to
Speaker 1: positioning yourself and thinking of your current employer as someone
Speaker 1: who should be competing for you and I do encourage women,
Speaker 1: especially to you know, go for it, ask for that promotion,
Speaker 1: ask for their raids. Internally at your company, really get
Speaker 1: in the habit of chronicling your impact along the way
Speaker 1: as you go through your the year. For example, like
Speaker 1: your impact, So what kind of work have you produced
Speaker 1: and how have you maybe exceeded expectations and how can
Speaker 1: that be measured? Did you create a more efficient system
Speaker 1: that saved money or you know, you trained x number
Speaker 1: of new employees which led to higher engagement rates in
Speaker 1: the survey, like whatever you're you know, measures for success
Speaker 1: are those kpi s. How can you demonstrate your impact
Speaker 1: and be talking about that with your employer and don't
Speaker 1: be shy about letting them know, you know, after a
Speaker 1: year or two, I'd love to be considered for this
Speaker 1: next role. And if you hear no, and if you
Speaker 1: feel stymied in your growth, absolutely you're in the right
Speaker 1: for wanting to pursue a new opportunity outside the company.
Speaker 1: And if you're doing everything I'm talking about and you're
Speaker 1: sharing your work outside, chances are some opportunities are going
Speaker 1: to come to you and you're gonna have other options
Speaker 1: than just staying stuck where you are and where they're
Speaker 1: not giving you those opportunities for a raise or for growth.
Speaker 1: You see how that kind of all works together. And
Speaker 1: then if you do get a competing offer, there's no
Speaker 1: better way to get to have the leverage to get
Speaker 1: a raise at work outside of the normal annual review
Speaker 1: raise than having a competing job offer. So I do.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that you have to take every
Speaker 1: job offer that you get, but I definitely believe if
Speaker 1: a couple of things are true, absolutely you should jump
Speaker 1: and not feel bad about it. Like if you're going
Speaker 1: to get paid substantially more, and if you're going to
Speaker 1: get opportunities to grow that you're not getting where you are,
Speaker 1: why would you stay? Yeah, that's such a good point.
Speaker 1: And I think we have we have a lot of
Speaker 1: like listeners, and I can I feel the same like
Speaker 1: when I switched industries kind of felt similarly like I
Speaker 1: would love to make more, but I love the place
Speaker 1: where I'm at so much, Like I love the people
Speaker 1: I work with. The environment's very chill, and and they
Speaker 1: kind of associate going up in pay with going up
Speaker 1: in stress or negative work environment. Yeah, how telling our
Speaker 1: stuff crap to keep us stuck? So like what how
Speaker 1: do you what do you tell people? And like if
Speaker 1: and I know we're not talking in worst case scenarios,
Speaker 1: if it is a more stressful environment, like what is
Speaker 1: the benefit of that too? Or the way how do
Speaker 1: you get people out of there? Don't take that job
Speaker 1: where you have to sell your soul for more pay,
Speaker 1: Like how can you Is there a way to identify
Speaker 1: that before you take it? For sure? If you have
Speaker 1: a way of getting in touch with any colleagues who
Speaker 1: have recently left the company, maybe you know someone who's
Speaker 1: worked there, or you can find people on LinkedIn who
Speaker 1: used to work there and ask about their experience. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say go to like glassdoor reviews because generally only
Speaker 1: the most like angry employees who leave the company leave reviews.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like yelp, like only people who hate
Speaker 1: something are going to take the time to leave a review.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you can do your due diligence in that way.
Speaker 1: You can um you can ask for peer interviews, like
Speaker 1: through the hiring process. If you're only speaking to higher ups,
Speaker 1: you can say I'd love to chat with a couple
Speaker 1: of peers that I may be working alongside, and they
Speaker 1: may give you some candid feedback on like what the
Speaker 1: work environment is like. Some of the most toxic work
Speaker 1: environments based on the feedback I get from hundreds of clients,
Speaker 1: is like nonprofits. You know, there's this thing that nonprofits
Speaker 1: pay terrible right place to work, you're all doing good,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of toxicity in that space. So I
Speaker 1: feel like you just have to understand that if you're
Speaker 1: working someplace and it's great, you love the people you
Speaker 1: work with, it's very comfortable, but they're not paying you
Speaker 1: what you want to be valued or what you think
Speaker 1: you should be getting, and you don't feel like you're
Speaker 1: being valued, But you stay because you don't think you'll
Speaker 1: find another place where you'll enjoy working as much you can.
Speaker 1: There are other great places where you can work with
Speaker 1: other lovely people that may pay you more, but you
Speaker 1: have to put yourself out there to find those opportunities.
Speaker 1: And it goes the same way for if you're wanting
Speaker 1: or your if you think that you want to move
Speaker 1: up and and get a you know, a higher title
Speaker 1: and more responsibilities, find a place that's actually going to
Speaker 1: support you. So one of my favorite questions in interviews
Speaker 1: to ask is, so, how can I be supported and
Speaker 1: hitting these goals, these expectations. Is there a budget for
Speaker 1: contractors for support? Do I have a team that I
Speaker 1: can rely on? Is there good relationships with other teams
Speaker 1: at the company that can be supportive? And figure out
Speaker 1: how are you going to be supported? Or is everything
Speaker 1: going to be on your shoulders in the pressure, We're
Speaker 1: going to crush you. You don't want to work there,
Speaker 1: but there are places I've worked there. I say the
Speaker 1: place five years, and I'm a great quitter. I love quitting.
Speaker 1: I'll do it when I say loyal for five years
Speaker 1: because I had great team, great support, I had everything
Speaker 1: I needed to thrive, you know, and those places exist.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. I definitely felt that taking the leap
Speaker 1: from acupuncture to personal finance writing because my job was
Speaker 1: so comfy, Like it was so comfy, but like I
Speaker 1: couldn't there was no more room for growth there, and
Speaker 1: it ended up being like very much worth the jump.
Speaker 1: But if it hadn't been, if I hadn't liked it,
Speaker 1: I could always just go back, like I could, and
Speaker 1: I was. I was in an ideal situation where I
Speaker 1: could go back. But there are also other jobs too,
Speaker 1: Like you shouldn't change your mind. Yeah, yeah, there's permission,
Speaker 1: so I claiming that passion. M h. We just I
Speaker 1: don't know who told us that you have to like
Speaker 1: choose one thing to do, like after college, and then
Speaker 1: just do that thing. And if you change your mind,
Speaker 1: then you suck. Like that's just so silly. Like life changes,
Speaker 1: you become a parent, you want different things. I used
Speaker 1: to hate working remotely. Now I don't know what I
Speaker 1: would do without it, you know. Yeah, we should all
Speaker 1: just give ourselves grace, And if anyone tries to shame
Speaker 1: you for it, think about why they're shaming you. If
Speaker 1: it's a former manager and you're quitting and they're super
Speaker 1: piste at you, it's because you made their life more
Speaker 1: inconvenient because now they have to find someone else to
Speaker 1: do what you were doing and hire someone else. Well, way,
Speaker 1: that's the job of a manager. So you know what
Speaker 1: you asked for this, So you have to like you're
Speaker 1: not responsible for how other people feel about the decisions
Speaker 1: that you make. You just got to make the best
Speaker 1: choice you can with integrity and make peace with people
Speaker 1: want to get annoyed about it, that's not your problem.
Speaker 1: I love to have at the Brown She's always like,
Speaker 1: it's not my business. It's not my business how other
Speaker 1: people think about the choices that I make. And I
Speaker 1: think we all could stand to, you know, really internalize that.
Speaker 1: M hm hm. You know what else we need permission
Speaker 1: for and can be internalized. It's also an external thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, it just fits the bill. On all the
Speaker 1: things we should all we all get permission for. This
Speaker 1: the bill of the week. That's right, It's time for
Speaker 1: the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby
Speaker 1: was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid
Speaker 1: off your mortgage, maybe your car died and you're happy
Speaker 1: to not have to pay that bill anymore. Bill Buffalo Bills,
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, this is the bill of the week. So Mandy,
Speaker 1: every week we invite our listeners or our guest to
Speaker 1: share with us their bill for the week, and we
Speaker 1: know you have one prepared and we can't wait to
Speaker 1: hear it. I did prepare, and I went maybe in
Speaker 1: a little bit of a different direction than you guys
Speaker 1: were expecting. But I'm gonna shout out now. The direction
Speaker 1: is vague for a reason. Okay, cool, I'm gonna shout out.
Speaker 1: I looked at this bill. I'm gonna shout out Bill
Speaker 1: HR zero, which is a bill that's been proposed to
Speaker 1: the House of Representatives. It's called the Salary Transparency Act.
Speaker 1: It would require employers to actually disclose the wage or
Speaker 1: the salary range in public job listings for jobs. So
Speaker 1: hell yeah, I want to shout that bill out. And
Speaker 1: who was it proposed by this fabulous del Norton and
Speaker 1: Eleanor Holmes Democrats from like looks like DC. I don't know,
Speaker 1: so I want to shout that out. We know we
Speaker 1: just had to pay transparency law that passed here in
Speaker 1: New York City and change the game for millions of
Speaker 1: workers because now you actually can see the job salary
Speaker 1: range on a job listing, which is like something that
Speaker 1: seems so like why and why is it hidden? And
Speaker 1: finally it's happening. So yeah, I hope this law passes
Speaker 1: at the federal level. That would be pretty dope. This
Speaker 1: is a great bill. We love. We love all directions
Speaker 1: of bills. People have talked about these types of bills
Speaker 1: in the past, and this is one of the most
Speaker 1: frustrating things to me in finding work. Anytime I filled
Speaker 1: out applications, it's like, don't waste my time and I
Speaker 1: won't waste your time, because often it's not until you
Speaker 1: get to the final stages of hiring that you learn
Speaker 1: what you might make or what they're kind of offering.
Speaker 1: And it's like, I never would have applied, Like this
Speaker 1: is so ridiculous. I was even in a job interview
Speaker 1: at one point, sorry to hijack your bill of the week,
Speaker 1: where they were like, oh, when you could even earn
Speaker 1: a little bit more if you wanted, like if you
Speaker 1: happen to have a like if you got your bachelor's degree.
Speaker 1: At some point I was like, I have my bachelor's
Speaker 1: degree right now sitting in front of you, and he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: oh okay, Like it was just a waste of everybody's
Speaker 1: time getting fired up about this, Like why didn't you
Speaker 1: tell me this allery range? Why didn't you read my
Speaker 1: accomplishments like that much? How partially start making twelve dollars?
Speaker 1: It was ridiculous, Like, we just all need to know
Speaker 1: what we're in for and it'll go a lot better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't take away the need to know your value
Speaker 1: and to have your own target salary range in mind,
Speaker 1: but it does take put the onus on the people
Speaker 1: who actually have the power and have the knowledge to
Speaker 1: share that, and I think it has a good thing
Speaker 1: all around. Yeah, great Bill, Mandy. I hope, I hope
Speaker 1: it happens for all of our sakes. Mid terms. We're
Speaker 1: kind of dicey. I don't know how things are shaved.
Speaker 1: I don't even know who controls what right now, see
Speaker 1: who ever knows. If you listening, have a bill your
Speaker 1: particularly psyched about you hope passes, or a bill you paid,
Speaker 1: a bill you don't want to pay a person named Bill,
Speaker 1: you know, the drill froup of Friends podcast dot com
Speaker 1: slash Bill. Leave us your bill. We're waiting for it.
Speaker 1: And now it's time for pew pew. It gets just
Speaker 1: gets weirder, and we're going to get poached for our
Speaker 1: Lightning Round noises, like some sort of sound effect is
Speaker 1: gonna be finding me. It's going to happen one day.
Speaker 1: We've been doing this for almost five years and eventually,
Speaker 1: one day Jill will get poached for her sound effects.
Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, it's a good thing that I control
Speaker 1: the inbox. Well Goldie controls it, so let's go just yeah. Alright,
Speaker 1: So this week's Lightning Round is sharing our best or
Speaker 1: worst salary negotiations story and bonus points if it's funny,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have to be. Mine is not funny.
Speaker 1: Uh so, Mandy, you have the most stories, so you
Speaker 1: can go first. Oh funny, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: have a funny one. It's all very serious and stressful.
Speaker 1: Um in the best way possible. I like to just
Speaker 1: go aheat people. Yeah, salary negotiated stressful, it's supposed to be.
Speaker 1: It's uncomfortable. You'd have to get over and do it anyway.
Speaker 1: I'm most proud of the last corporate salary that I
Speaker 1: negotiated because I negotiated like the baller that I was,
Speaker 1: and I knew that they really wanted me, and um,
Speaker 1: I got the offer from them and it was great
Speaker 1: because at that point I illustrated my brilliance. It was
Speaker 1: pretty great. Um. I was happy with the base compensation,
Speaker 1: but the signing bonus was like fift K and I
Speaker 1: was like, you can do that. I was, and I
Speaker 1: remember I actually recruiter and I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I just don't think that the signing bonus is it
Speaker 1: makes me as excited for the bonus as I am
Speaker 1: for the role. And is there any way that we
Speaker 1: can make that more exciting and they did. They turned
Speaker 1: it from and that was pretty more than my words.
Speaker 1: You have say, Okay, how do you show like, I mean,
Speaker 1: how do you show like do you have to prove
Speaker 1: your your need or your worth for signing bonus? Like
Speaker 1: what is involved with that? Well to get the signing bonus?
Speaker 1: I mean, in my industry at the time, this was
Speaker 1: a financial institution, signing bonuses are not unheard of, and
Speaker 1: it's becoming more and more common, especially in the wake
Speaker 1: of the pandemic. More and more businesses, even Domino's Pizza
Speaker 1: was offering signing bonuses. So that's one of the good
Speaker 1: outcomes of the pandemic is that companies to to fight
Speaker 1: for demand for the best people, they needed to offer
Speaker 1: these little incentives. So it was common. But I also
Speaker 1: was leaving money on the table at my current company
Speaker 1: at the time, So I was leaving like equity that
Speaker 1: had been invested, and I think it was approaching my
Speaker 1: annual bonus time and so I had already let them know,
Speaker 1: you know, can you make me whole for the money
Speaker 1: and leaving on the table, So that fift k was
Speaker 1: like just about covering it. But I, like I said,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to feel as excited about the compensation offer,
Speaker 1: as I genuinely was for the opportunity, and I knew
Speaker 1: that they really wanted me, So no, didn't have to
Speaker 1: fight or make my case because at that point it
Speaker 1: already made them excited to hire me. At that point,
Speaker 1: they already knew how amazing I was, and it was.
Speaker 1: And I also knew that the hiring manager. I knew
Speaker 1: what was going to happen. The recruiter was going to
Speaker 1: go the hiring manager and say, hey, do you have
Speaker 1: the budget for more? What can you do for many?
Speaker 1: And he really wanted me, so I was like, he'll
Speaker 1: probably say something. I didn't think it was going to
Speaker 1: be nearly triple, but I thought it would be more.
Speaker 1: And that was that, you know, challenge accepted on their part.
Speaker 1: Don't show the jaw drop stone face. Yes, that's exactly
Speaker 1: what I was hoping for. I don't do it. I
Speaker 1: feel excited, ding ding ding You got there a quickly excited.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Oh my gosh, um, Jill, can you top it? No?
Speaker 1: I can't. My worst is that you guys, here you go.
Speaker 1: Jen Love's vulnerability. I have never negotiated a salary. In
Speaker 1: my defense, I come from My background is in social work,
Speaker 1: and I have historically worked in very small nonprofits where
Speaker 1: I was leading the nonprofit. So the negotiation would have
Speaker 1: looked like me negotiating with myself trying to increase fundraising.
Speaker 1: Isn't there a board? Uh yeah yeah not stuff sure,
Speaker 1: But then like the board would just say you go
Speaker 1: make more money, like you go get more money from
Speaker 1: fundraising efforts. They were always super small organizations where you
Speaker 1: just needed more money to provide for the women that
Speaker 1: we were caring for, So it just it was complicated.
Speaker 1: I would say my way of moving up within the
Speaker 1: field has been increasing my skill set, educational background and
Speaker 1: the job hopping and the side hustles and Jen and
Speaker 1: I starting our own business and going after entrepreneurial pursuits.
Speaker 1: So at its core of negotiating a salary, I've never
Speaker 1: really been in a company where there's like anybody to
Speaker 1: negotiate with, but negotiating maybe with myself and then within
Speaker 1: some of these So my best though, I will say,
Speaker 1: is within having Frugal Friends podcast and co owning a
Speaker 1: business with Jen. We have been in positions of negotiating
Speaker 1: the two of us together. It's it's a fun combo
Speaker 1: I would say that's fun. I wouldn't call it funny,
Speaker 1: but it is fun to be on some of these
Speaker 1: phone calls and kind of volley back and forth where
Speaker 1: Jen hops in on something, well what about this? What
Speaker 1: can you do on this? And then I hop in
Speaker 1: on something else and I asked for and we've we've
Speaker 1: done well. Negotiating it's not necessarily like negotiating salaries, but
Speaker 1: it's negotiating partnerships and deals. Yeah, I love it. I
Speaker 1: get to do that too. It's fun because I just
Speaker 1: live for that thrill, the sense of it. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's actually when you feel like you have a leg up,
Speaker 1: which is yeah, that when there's something to stand on,
Speaker 1: when you've kind of proven out your skill set and
Speaker 1: you've got a platform to stand on, then it becomes
Speaker 1: a little bit more exhilarating because your value was obvious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I learned something from every single one, Like I
Speaker 1: still don't feel like I'm a master negotiator because every
Speaker 1: time we negotiate a deal, I learned something new and
Speaker 1: I wouldn't and we would not be as successful in
Speaker 1: negotiating without like friendships and relationships with other people that
Speaker 1: are not I mean better negotiators just but just really
Speaker 1: just more like knowledgeable about the industries and the deals
Speaker 1: that we're in, and like being able to have people,
Speaker 1: you know, tell us like, all right, this is what
Speaker 1: they'll budge on, this is what you can expect, This
Speaker 1: is what so and so at the other you know
Speaker 1: organization did, yeah and so like yeah, Like relationships have
Speaker 1: been critical to negotiating, well, I have found there. They're
Speaker 1: critical to literally everything we've done. But negotiation is just
Speaker 1: one of the things on the list. What about you, Jen,
Speaker 1: what stories do you have for us? Okay, So my
Speaker 1: worst one I when I was just starting out. I
Speaker 1: was like a new acupuncturist. I was making ten dollars
Speaker 1: an hour, and I had an offer from a competing clinic,
Speaker 1: but I wanted to like honor this woman who had
Speaker 1: given me a job before I was licensed. She had
Speaker 1: given me a lot of mentorship, so she had just
Speaker 1: done a lot for me. But she was paying me
Speaker 1: ten dollars an hour, so I wanted to be faithful
Speaker 1: to her and loyal to her, And I was like,
Speaker 1: can you give me more than ten dollars an hour?
Speaker 1: And she said no, So I left because ultimately I
Speaker 1: am most loyal to me. Yea, I left so but
Speaker 1: like I was transparent with her about all of that, um,
Speaker 1: and when she said no, I had to I had
Speaker 1: to leave. So that was like gut wrenching. It was
Speaker 1: oh my god, it was almost double it was insane.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, of course, and she was very cheaply. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it turned out to be an even better job,
Speaker 1: like an even better boss, even better coworkers, like it
Speaker 1: was just all around ten times better. But I didn't
Speaker 1: know that going into it. It was really a chance
Speaker 1: and a you know, a feeling that I took. So
Speaker 1: that thost worst and I guess best. That was great.
Speaker 1: But when I left acupuncture altogether to start writing, they
Speaker 1: had kind of poached me. So I had taken kind
Speaker 1: of like a quote unquote internship with them, just on
Speaker 1: the side of my regular job because they saw, like
Speaker 1: I saw, they were offering internships on LinkedIn of all
Speaker 1: places LinkedIn, and I had a blog. I had no
Speaker 1: other writing background, so I was like, hey, this is
Speaker 1: this is my portfolio and they're like cool, come on.
Speaker 1: And after that internship, they wanted to hire me full time,
Speaker 1: but I didn't want to leave my job yet, and
Speaker 1: so they had wanted me for almost a year. Uh,
Speaker 1: they had been asking me to come on, and finally
Speaker 1: I was ready and I was able to. So they
Speaker 1: offered me a number. I think it was forty one,
Speaker 1: and then I was just looking at every all the
Speaker 1: compensation and the benefits, and I was like, in order
Speaker 1: to make this viable for me, I have to take
Speaker 1: fifty one. And I think I got forty or forty seven.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't every thing that I asked for, but
Speaker 1: it was something I would have gotten if I hadn't asked.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that was That was the last crease of
Speaker 1: five K. And what they were offering you is not
Speaker 1: that at all. Yeah, I was never going to get
Speaker 1: that in Raises, and I didn't because they laid off
Speaker 1: half the company a year later. Order yes, feeling yeah
Speaker 1: like finance, Yeah, I remember that later. But that was
Speaker 1: a great Yeah. It was a great place to work
Speaker 1: while it last. And that was my last j O B.
Speaker 1: Everything else has been negotiating deals and rates and nothing
Speaker 1: like to really put you on a path for success.
Speaker 1: I tell you, it was the best thing that ever
Speaker 1: happened to me. Worst timing because I was eight weeks
Speaker 1: away from giving birth right so horrible timing. Best thing
Speaker 1: that's ever happened to the you know, the career, so
Speaker 1: to speak. So yeah, well, Mandy, you have given us
Speaker 1: a plethora of things to think on look for, aim
Speaker 1: at mindset shifts mostly, and I really hope that those
Speaker 1: continue to solidify for folks wanting just better in their
Speaker 1: careers and earning potentials. And you've talked a lot about
Speaker 1: some of your resources. Where can people get more from
Speaker 1: you so they can keep digging in? Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: the most exciting thing right now is my negotiating master class.
Speaker 1: It's free, offering it entirely for free. I teach my
Speaker 1: full method for negotiating. It's a complete lesson. There's no
Speaker 1: in order to get the rest, you have to sign
Speaker 1: up for this and I do that sporadically when I
Speaker 1: feel like it's so the best thing to do is
Speaker 1: to sign up for my email list. You can do
Speaker 1: that at Mandy money dot com. It's m A N.
Speaker 1: D I Money dot com and join my mailing list
Speaker 1: and um no spam. I'll let you know in the
Speaker 1: next master classes. I've also got a free toolkit called
Speaker 1: the Just Quit Toolkit if you need a little extra
Speaker 1: push in the Right Direction that you can download also
Speaker 1: for free from Mandy Money dot com. Definitely definitely get
Speaker 1: in on that, and we're also going to link some
Speaker 1: of Mandy's articles that she's written that I really enjoy
Speaker 1: in our show notes. So yeah, check out more from Mandy.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on, y'all. Thanks for being here. Jill.
Speaker 1: I can see I can see you were a little
Speaker 1: challenged by today's episode. It was I'm still sweating, just
Speaker 1: a little bit, like good sweating. You are wearing a jacket,
Speaker 1: the kind of sweat that you get from sitting in
Speaker 1: like a really amazing sauna. It's like, I signed up
Speaker 1: for this, I'm here for it. It's what I wanted,
Speaker 1: and I am sweating. Yeah, I can't go in saunas.
Speaker 1: I'm again things I hate about it, So your Friends
Speaker 1: podcast dot com slash. I loved this episode because italidated
Speaker 1: some of the things, like I already knew about negotiating,
Speaker 1: and the part about being poached. I knew that happened,
Speaker 1: I didn't know how common it was, and I didn't
Speaker 1: know I wouldn't have been able to tell a strategy
Speaker 1: for making yourself poachable. And that is really I think
Speaker 1: my biggest takeaway, I'm so passionate that your network of
Speaker 1: relationships really is what gets you further in life, way
Speaker 1: more than who you can pay to do what for you.
Speaker 1: So this is just another way of investing in people,
Speaker 1: Uh not even I mean just bare minimum investing in
Speaker 1: people and and see and having it help you so much.
Speaker 1: I think it helped me break out of a little
Speaker 1: bit of the box that I still can feel like
Speaker 1: I'm in or don't know I'm in, but realize I'm
Speaker 1: in by talking with people with alternative perspectives. But also
Speaker 1: I think we can have such a narrow mindset of
Speaker 1: like Mandy pointed out what it means to be poached,
Speaker 1: what it means to be able to move up in
Speaker 1: our career and negotiate higher salaries. And it might not
Speaker 1: look the same in all of the fields, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's not accessible in every field. And to
Speaker 1: realize I didn't realize it until talking with Mandy, Like
Speaker 1: that is what's happened for me. I have changed careers
Speaker 1: because in many ways I got poached, Like the one
Speaker 1: social work job that I was in, I left and
Speaker 1: started working for one of the people I previously worked with,
Speaker 1: Like that was the that was a personal relationship, but
Speaker 1: that was you know, with under the umbrella of a
Speaker 1: poaching scenario. I also realized that my opportunity to I'm
Speaker 1: taking on an adjunct professor position, and that happened because
Speaker 1: I'm on LinkedIn. I don't I rarely update it, but
Speaker 1: a few months ago I just thought to Oh, I'm
Speaker 1: not looking for work, but it'd be good to just
Speaker 1: I like keeping things updated. I don't know, It's probably
Speaker 1: part of my like organization and minimalism. I'm like, I
Speaker 1: hate that there's a linked In profile on me that's
Speaker 1: not up to date. I'm just going to update it.
Speaker 1: I'm not looking for more. But then because of that,
Speaker 1: a previous professor reached out and offered me an adjunct
Speaker 1: professor role. Like, yeah, that is, and that's for me
Speaker 1: within the field of social work. It's all within the
Speaker 1: field of social work. So it really does just drive
Speaker 1: home Many's point. Yeah, definitely. Well, everyone, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for listening. We hope and we pretty much know
Speaker 1: you got something out of this, but we'd also love
Speaker 1: to hear you report back on all of your success stories.
Speaker 1: And many of you know that we also have a
Speaker 1: private community where we do monthly money challenges, and we
Speaker 1: offer accountability groups, which we all need because we love
Speaker 1: community and we want to congratulate one of our members
Speaker 1: for a big win. This came from Susan, who says
Speaker 1: thank you for Girlfriends Club. I paid off one of
Speaker 1: my credit cards last week that, at its highest balance
Speaker 1: was nearly thirty thousand dollars. I have one more credit
Speaker 1: card with a balance of eighteen thousand dollars that, if
Speaker 1: I stick to my plan, will be paid off by April,
Speaker 1: just a on the river bend. As I have carried
Speaker 1: this debt, I all also have carried the shame of
Speaker 1: having built it. But this group is so supportive and
Speaker 1: safe that I feel less shame about the debt and
Speaker 1: more empowered to pay it off. I have so much
Speaker 1: gratitude for you all. Susan, we have gratitude for you.
Speaker 1: You are an invaluable member. We have loved having you,
Speaker 1: and yeah, shame is not something you should carry about this.
Speaker 1: We are so excited for you, and there's we're going
Speaker 1: to have quite a few people I think in April
Speaker 1: making some big pay off milestones. For some reason, that's
Speaker 1: gonna be a big month. Yeah, I'm excited for that
Speaker 1: is very close and my goodness, what massive strides in
Speaker 1: such a short amount of time. So I'm so glad
Speaker 1: that this community has been helpful for you. Those money
Speaker 1: challenges have been helpful for you. If you all listening,
Speaker 1: think this is the kind of motivation you need. Head
Speaker 1: Differental Friends podcast dot com slash club. You can see
Speaker 1: what challenge we have coming up next. You can jump
Speaker 1: in with us. You can see this kind of progress
Speaker 1: for yourself. See you there. Frugal Friends is produced by
Speaker 1: Eric Syrian. So I want to talk about what I
Speaker 1: just talked to you about, but not what we just
Speaker 1: talked about, but what we talked about before. Follow your lead,
Speaker 1: so we don't give myself. Um, I bought a shirt
Speaker 1: and it is a maternity shirt, and so I have
Speaker 1: very limited options. It's got to be long, that has
Speaker 1: that's like the first and it's I mean, it has
Speaker 1: to be white enough, so either a maternity or just
Speaker 1: like a baggy flowy shirt and they hate flowy things. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I find this black tank top and if you
Speaker 1: know me, you know black tank tops are all I wear.
Speaker 1: So I buy it. I don't even think twice about
Speaker 1: it's my size. I'm here for it is at the
Speaker 1: thrift store. And I put it on the first time
Speaker 1: you bought it before having tried it on. I didn't
Speaker 1: try it on. It was my size. Yeah, And there
Speaker 1: in live the problem because I put it on and
Speaker 1: there's a hole right in the chest region and holes
Speaker 1: at the bottom, which thankfully are covered by most maternity
Speaker 1: pant they go right up, right up all over the tummy.
Speaker 1: And so that is not much of a problem, but
Speaker 1: the one and you actually got this is so sweet.
Speaker 1: You didn't. You just thought I had a crumb on
Speaker 1: my boob and you didn't tell me, and then you realized, oh,
Speaker 1: that's a hole, and I am wearing an overshirt that
Speaker 1: you could cover it but open set. Well, here's the
Speaker 1: thing I would point something out to. I did notice it,
Speaker 1: but you were telling me a story, so I'm not
Speaker 1: going to interrupt you and just so you can like
Speaker 1: flick the crumb off your bob, so so that I
Speaker 1: didn't say. But then upon further investigation, while I was
Speaker 1: multitasking listening to your and investment getting your left breast,
Speaker 1: I realized, oh, that's not a crumb, that's a hole
Speaker 1: in the shirt. And I'm going to leave it alone.
Speaker 1: Poor girls pregnant? What are you gonna do? This is
Speaker 1: the second time I've worn the shirt. But now what's worse?
Speaker 1: Because yeah, you know, you know it has holes? I
Speaker 1: have limited options putting it on limited options available, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think you have a limiting mindset about
Speaker 1: your clothing options. Well, I have a limiting body type
Speaker 1: about my clothing options. Surely there is another shirt at
Speaker 1: the thrift store. They are ugly that don't have holes
Speaker 1: in them. I know you value beauty and it is
Speaker 1: not one of my core values. So when I tell
Speaker 1: you the other options were ugly, I need you to
Speaker 1: trust me. Yeah, this one isn't so much about my
Speaker 1: peripheral value of beauty. This might fall under the core
Speaker 1: values of faith, family, friends, and fulfilling work. You can
Speaker 1: have none of these right right on your bra and
Speaker 1: I agree. But here and lot, here's and where my
Speaker 1: priorities are. I'm still wearing it. She won't get rid
Speaker 1: of it until she gets the baby out of her bellies.
Speaker 1: So come soon, March, Come soon. I will not put
Speaker 1: it back into a thrift store. Will not do this
Speaker 1: to another woman, thank you. Yeah, turn it into like
Speaker 1: a rag or something a burp cloth for sure, two