1 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Ben. 2 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: My name is Noel, citizen Null, that is Citizennal. Yes, 3 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: not a consumer. Well, you know, I do consume quite 4 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: a bit of things, but I like to think of 5 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: myself more as a conscientious citizen of these here United States. 6 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: Noel and I just for peek behind the curtain. We 7 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: have been in the studio for a while today, working 8 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: on working on a couple of different projects. Right. Yeah, 9 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: we have another show called Stuff They Don't Want You 10 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: to Know, and we just spent an hour and a 11 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: half talking about John F. Kennedy. So we're both a 12 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: little punchy, but hopefully that will translate into an entertaining 13 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: episode of ridiculous history. That's right, that's our show. Here 14 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: we are. So we've had a crazy time, you know, 15 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: starting this show and looking at not just single historical 16 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: episodes in isolation, we've been exploring the context in which 17 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: these events occur. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, And one 18 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: thing that I think fascinates both of us is how 19 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,199 Speaker 1: stuff that would seem on the surface really small has 20 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: these universal, ubiquitous and important, uh implications. Absolutely, and that 21 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: is absolutely the case today with our topic of when 22 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: and why did America start calling its citizens consumers? Which 23 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: is such a good question. And before you brought this 24 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: to me, I had never thought about this. Like I 25 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: it just slid by my mind, and I was reading 26 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: so many different stories, you know, news stories, essays, creative 27 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: nonfiction where people, pundits, experts, authors used these phrases interchangeably, 28 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: which is kind of weird when you think about it, 29 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: you know. Uh So, there was a recent opinion piece 30 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: that was published in a political newspaper called The Hill. 31 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: And in this piece, which is titled how Trump's immigration 32 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: plans hurt American Citizens Pocketbooks, the author Maurice Goldman criticized 33 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: the Trump administration's plans for crackdown on immigration by pointing 34 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: to the cost of building the infamous border wall, the 35 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: cost of hiring enforcement agents, the cost of reducing legal 36 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: immigration channels, but a particular interest for our purposes today. 37 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: Goldman used the phrase consumer in in the body of 38 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: the text in the title it's citizen, but he notes 39 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: you the consumer will pay for you know, the the plans, 40 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: the political plans if this wall and stuff goes through. 41 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: And like you just said, I mean, is this an 42 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: issue of semantics or was this intentional? Um? And the 43 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: answer to that is pretty interesting. Um, it's hard to 44 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: say quite when this took place, but in the last 45 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: handful of years there has been an increasing tendency to 46 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: use the term consumer interchangeably with citizen. And that's even 47 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: when the conversation has to do with the economy. Yeah, 48 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: and again it's it seems like on the surface a 49 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: small thing, but political experts, growing numbers of political experts 50 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: are concerned with this, and they're arguing that the choice 51 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: of words signals a shift in how we uh see 52 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: ourselves as individuals participating in the United States, right, and 53 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: what our role is in American society. So the people 54 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: who are concerned are saying that this is moving the 55 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: individual away from this idea of citizenship working with others 56 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: in collaboration towards some common, greater good right, and toward 57 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: something else. Yes, I mean that's much more selfish and 58 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: an individualistic and based on the acquisition of things that 59 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: can also be turned around and applied to ideas. Or 60 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: the way our vote is almost equivalent to the way 61 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: we spend money exactly. And there's a professor named Jathan 62 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: Sadowski Jathan, Jathan j developed a list just now no 63 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: Jathan like Nathan, but with a J. I know, I've 64 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: never seen that one before. I know that's a new one. 65 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: Uh Here argues that using the term consumer interchangeably with 66 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: the term citizen has quote become part of our default discourse, 67 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: the normal way we view society and people, and he says, 68 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: just look at the recent presidential election. The consumer versus 69 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: citizen language is often used with analysts and pundits talk 70 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: about elections, and this goes to the point that that 71 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: Noel highlighted voters are just consumers with preferences, and the 72 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: election is a marketplace of products to choose from. To 73 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: continue to quote, in the store, we vote with our dollar. 74 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: We are told that elections are functionally the same thing. 75 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: You just use a ballot instead of a buck to 76 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: cast your vote. This understanding of democratic processes as a 77 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: marketplace is just one more place where the citizen is 78 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: overtaken by the consumer. End quote. And both of these 79 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: words have been around for centuries and centuries right. The 80 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: word citizen dates back to the thirteen hundreds. Originally it 81 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: meant the inhabitant of a city. Yeah, the entry and 82 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: the online Etymology Dictionary for citizen um says from site 83 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: citizen of the world translates in Greek to cosmopolites. Oh, 84 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: that's cool, that's a good one. On the other side, 85 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: the the evolution of citizen to mean what we take 86 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: it to mean today, a person who has both rights 87 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 1: in a society and responsibilities to that society. That didn't 88 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: come around until around sixteen ten. The term consumer arose 89 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: shortly after the original version of the term citizen. I 90 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: love the entry for that one in the online Etymology Dictionary. 91 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: It says quote one who squanders or wastes um agent 92 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: noun from consume in economic sense one who uses up 93 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: goods or articles opposite of producer, and that dates back 94 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: to seventeen Uh. Then it also says consumer goods is 95 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: attested from eighteen ninety um in consumers for a representative 96 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: basket of goods and services. And that actually is from 97 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Yeah, so that's these are 98 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: These are legit sources, and no one is saying that 99 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: these words just suddenly emerged like in nineteen seventy or whatever, 100 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: the like many words in English. This is an evolving language, right, 101 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: and so a living language. So, like many other terms, 102 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: the term citizen and consumer have undergone evolution over the years, 103 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: and the question is what what these mean today? Right? 104 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: According to Michael Munger, who is the director of the Philosophy, 105 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: Politics and Economics Program at Duke University's Political Science Department, 106 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: the word consumer, although it existed, as we had said 107 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: for sent trees, it didn't really appear in print until 108 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: ben have you ever used done in a Google Ingram search? 109 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: I I only started because of this. Yeah, it's really interesting. 110 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: So you can actually like search for a combination of 111 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: words compared to words, and it will get all track 112 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: it over time as it appears in this you know, 113 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: vast online collection of books that Google has digitized. And 114 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: starting in eighteen hundred and going to the year two thousand, 115 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: this in gram search tracks the use of citizen versus consumer, 116 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: and this is in fractions of so starting in eighteen hundred, 117 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: citizen is a clear winner, with consumer very very low, 118 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: just like a tiny fleck above zero percent. And then 119 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: as time goes on, starting in around nineteen ten nine 120 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: to be precise, there is a significant spike in citizen 121 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: um and then and as this is going on, consumer 122 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: is kind of rising. Then there's a crossover point in 123 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six at which point consumer goes through the 124 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: roof UM and ending in two thousand. Consumer well above 125 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: citizen in terms of its use in literature. Right. Yeah. 126 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: And it's fascinating to see this in laid out in 127 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: an infographic form because Duel is absolutely correct. You can 128 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: see the the direct correlation. You can see the switch 129 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: point at which people from writers, authors at least started 130 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: preferring the term consumer to the term citizen, and now 131 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: it's used about three times as often. Uh. Monger theorizes 132 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: that this happened this, this change in the usage had 133 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: largely to do with the rise of progressive politics in 134 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. And here's a quote from Monger quote. 135 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: The progressives primarily saw citizens as being helpless trapped by 136 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: arge forces, especially corporations, that citizens couldn't deal with. UM 137 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: and he attributes Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal social programs that 138 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: came about in the thirties, as well as Lyndon Johnson's 139 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: Great Society Effort in the sixties UM as reinforcing the 140 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: idea that participation in politics was mostly a way to 141 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: just get your share of the pie, you know, get 142 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: a piece. So it's it's less of a civic duty, 143 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: it's less of a what can I do for my 144 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: country and more of a what can my country do 145 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: for me? Exactly. And this increasing use of the term 146 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: consumer doesn't just apply to people who are writing about politics. 147 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: It applies to politicians themselves. And when we're talking about 148 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: President Johnson's Great Society stuff in the nineties sixties, we 149 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: are also examining the rise of something that would surprise 150 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: the average voter. Marketing, right, marketing, Yes, marketing, which means 151 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: that we are going to take a little bit of 152 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: a side trail into a man named Edward Burnet's and 153 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: Edward Bernez, as you know, is a is a guy 154 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: that you and I have spent a lot of time 155 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: on in the past. Yeah, he's sort of the big 156 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: grand Pappy of marketing. And this idea of selling things 157 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: to a mass audience including various methods from billboards, magazine 158 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: articles to later television think mad Men, you know the 159 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: television show, Um, the whole world that's depicted in that, 160 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: the Madison Avenue, UM kind of ad agency universe, um. 161 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: And it was for sellers of products like breakfast cereals 162 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: and cars and anti perch prints, all of these modern 163 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: things that everyone just had to have. Um. And today 164 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, we can micro target people's preferences, you know, 165 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: using these campaigns in this massive amounts of data that 166 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: can be analyzed much much much more quickly than in 167 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: the past. Uh. And now it looks at individual voters 168 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: attitudes and their corresponding behavior um and can kind of 169 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: figure out what might be the best way to actually 170 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: reach them in the same way as you know, appealing 171 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: to somebody about a particular type of microwave meal. Right, 172 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: And that that in itself is important for us to 173 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: know that in itself is not inherently a bad thing. However, 174 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: it is an important thing, and it is crucial that 175 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: people be aware of what is happening. To tell me 176 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: a little bit about Bernet's Oh man, I'm so glad 177 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: you asked, Okay, so Edward Berne's get this nephew of 178 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: Sigmund Freud, true story Ampia coincidence, coincidence? Right? Uh? Edward 179 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: Edward Bernesee took a lot of psychological concepts and said, well, 180 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: how can we I hesitate to use the word weaponize, 181 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: but maybe maybe apply is a better word. He said, 182 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: how how can we apply these concepts about how the 183 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: workings of the human mind and translate them into quantifiable, predictable, 184 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: real world results. How can we push people not only 185 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: to make the decision we want them to make, but 186 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: to make them feel that it is their decision, that 187 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: they have agency in this choice. He has done so 188 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: much stuff, So I really appreciate that you mentioned the 189 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: concept of breakfast, right, so before Edward Burnet's the typical 190 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 1: breakfast in the in the United States would be something 191 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: like a cup of coffee and maybe a croissant or 192 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: as yes, yes, or you know, a bagel, a couple 193 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: of pieces of toast, maybe some butter. A bagel and toast. 194 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: That's a lot of carbs, dude. Yeah, you put the toast, 195 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a toast sandwich. So you 196 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: get the bagel if the toast in between, that doesn't 197 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: sound very healthy. And that's actually kind of the point, 198 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: because what ended up being foisted upon the American consumer 199 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: was this idea of bacon for breakfast, right, yes, yeah, 200 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: Edward Berns, make no bones about it. Is the reason 201 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: that bacon became part of the American breakfast. Because without 202 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: getting too deep into it, here's what happened. In the 203 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, Edward Bernese was approached by a company called 204 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: the beach Nut Packing Company. They're the people who made 205 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: beech nut gum at the time, right, but they did 206 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: a lot of other stuff, and they had a lot 207 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: of other concerns. One of the big concerns was pork. Edward, 208 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: they asked the guy, we need to increase demand. We 209 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: have all this trash meat laying around, you know, how 210 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: do we uh a and foisted on the American public 211 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: right exactly just so. And he thought, well, we could 212 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: do the typical sort of advertisement at the time, where 213 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: we could just have somebody be like, hey, I'm cool 214 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: and where does suit and get a nice tie and 215 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: like bacon you should too, And that was, you know, 216 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: that was the approach that advertising used. But he did 217 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: something very different and he said, well, let me let 218 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: me conduct a quote unquote poll of doctors medical experts, 219 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: and let me let me twist the questions in such 220 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: a way that they will all end up agreeing or 221 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: appearing to agree that bacon is not only good for you, 222 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: but should be eaten by any person with half a 223 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: concern about their health early in the morning and give 224 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: them energy and substantial And that's the thing. It worked. 225 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: It not only did it work, but it continues to 226 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: work today. Edward Bernese, who could be the subject to 227 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: his own show, right, he went on to uh tie 228 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: smoking tobacco with women's suffrage. He went on to help 229 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: support propaganda pushing the American public, citizens or consumers, whatever 230 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: you want to call them, into supporting a coup in 231 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: South America. And he continues to influence things today. This 232 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: is one of the correlations, one of the one of 233 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: the points at which people stopped thinking about the average 234 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: voter as a citizen and started thinking about them as consumers. Well, 235 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: it's the way, you know, politicians have to essentially market 236 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: themselves uh and and and dress up their platforms in 237 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: such a way that appeals to different voting bases. Uh 238 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: and A lot of it is based on entirely based 239 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: on rhetoric, which you could, you know, kind of equate 240 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: to something like ad copy where it's like, sure, it's 241 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: technically true, and it's it's backed up by science or 242 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: like you know, fact, but at the end of the day, 243 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: it's this like packaged, curated version of the truth, and 244 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: that is the way things are today, and the government itself, 245 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: in fact, is is actually judged as if it were 246 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: a business, a consumer business. The American Customer Satisfaction Index 247 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: actually rates the federal government on how people feel about 248 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: their interactions with How am I how they feel? You 249 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. So there's Bernet's at work right now, 250 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: and it actually got a sixty percent positive rating in 251 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: which was up from sixty the previous year. So, um, 252 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: gonna'll be interested to know how how that ranks today, Yeah, 253 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: and the methodology behind it. People who have a problem 254 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: with this interchangeable use of citizen and consumer, uh, They 255 00:17:54,480 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: argue that there are fundamental differences between the two roles 256 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: in society and that they should not be confused. So 257 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: how about this. I want to outline some of these 258 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: proposed differences and see what you think. Sure, okay, So 259 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 1: is there an issue of morality? You know, earlier we 260 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: mentioned the concept of doing stuff for other people for 261 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: the greater good versus doing something for one's self. So 262 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: one of the proposed differences would be that the job 263 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: of any consumer is to always choose what works best 264 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: for them in the marketplace, regardless of any other considerations. Right, 265 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: that's what I do. I think that's that's also the 266 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: human condition, though, isn't it. You know? Yeah, But that 267 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: that there in lies the issue with this whole notion 268 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: of like being pulled away from the idea of being 269 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: part of a whole or being a member of a 270 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: team and going to a much more self serving attitude 271 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: that's kind of codified and bolstered by the use of 272 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: these these these words and the distinctions that they sort 273 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: of imply, I guess, right. Yeah, So then if a 274 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,719 Speaker 1: by by this understanding, this difference is true, then by 275 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: virtue of voting, a consumer is saying what will make 276 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: me better directly now, whereas a citizen would be saying, 277 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: what can I do to improve the world conditions for 278 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: everyone from my neighbors? Yeah, yeah, like a rising tide 279 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: carries all vest And a good citizen then would be, 280 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: in their own way kind of kind of heroic or 281 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: very moral, that's what it sounds like, right, And a 282 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: good consumer would be getting the best deal. There's another difference, 283 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: which is that citizens are comfortable with a degree of uncertainty. 284 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: I'm doing my best to help the group, the community 285 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: of the nation, et cetera. I'm not sure how it's 286 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: going to work out, but I know my intentions are 287 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: what I believe to be good. Whereas a consumer says, 288 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, if I'm if I'm paying for this service, 289 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: whether that's through time, whether that's through money, whether that's 290 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: through exchange of materials, then I need to be certain 291 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: that this transaction occurs, you know. So with with this idea, um, 292 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: there's the simplication that a citizen knows that society has 293 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: what HR departments around the world called areas of opportunity. 294 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: God do you remember that one? Do you know how 295 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: much I love these corporate terms? Yes? Yes, synergy Synergy 296 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: is their synergy and uh and cadence that's a new one, 297 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: making the rounds. Well, you know, the idea holds up though, 298 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: because the concept then would be that you and I 299 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: and everyone who has a vote understands that we can 300 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: play a part in improving society in whatever way we 301 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: think it should be improved, right, and that these problems 302 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: will not be fixed themselves. And then the on the 303 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: other side, the concept of a consumer would be that 304 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: someone expects to purchase essentially a product or a service, 305 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: and that the people providing that product or service, it's 306 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: on them to fix stuff. Right. So I voted for 307 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: you just do the thing, you know what I mean? 308 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: And uh, we we know that this is a very 309 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: very contentious thing. Well let's go through a little business. 310 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: This is a ridiculous history. Um, let's just talk a 311 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: little bit about the history of the idea of humans 312 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: as consumers. There's a fantastic article by Frank Trentman in 313 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: the Atlantic that has a couple of great quotes from 314 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: the famous American thinker Adam Smith, one of which is 315 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: a consumption is the soul, end and purpose of all production, 316 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: which was m his treatise, I guess you could call 317 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: it The Wealth of Nations from seventeen seventy six. That's 318 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: a pretty famous quote. A lesser known quote from him 319 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: that really sums up this whole idea comes from seventeen 320 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: fifty nine The Theory of Moral Sentiments, UM, where he 321 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: kind of really hones in on the as Trentman puts it, 322 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: the social and psychological impulses that cause us to want 323 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: to get a bunch of stuff, knickknacks, patty wax, gadgets, um. 324 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: And this quote again from Smith does a really good 325 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: job of summing all that up. He observed that people 326 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: wanted to quote stuff their pockets with little conveniences and 327 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: then buying coats with more pockets to carry even more 328 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: by themselves. Tweezer cases, elaborate snuff boxes, and other bobbles 329 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: might not have much use, but Smith pointed out what 330 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: mattered was that people looked at them as means of happiness. Um. 331 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: And he goes on to say that it was in 332 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: people's imaginations that these objects became part of a harmonious 333 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: system and made the pleasures of wealth grand and beautiful 334 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: and noble. And even you know, ancient Greek thinkers philosophers 335 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: from you know, Plato to St. Augustine Um, they kind 336 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: of condemned the pursuit of of stuff as as being 337 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: inherently wicked and self serving. Um. So there is this 338 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: history of the idea of being a citizen as being 339 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: much more important, and if it feels like throughout history, 340 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: obviously there there is that selfish impulse. But as a whole, 341 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: civilization and societies have largely maintained because of this notion 342 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: of you know, the whole is more important than the 343 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: individual parts and that we're all banding together to make 344 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: a better life for everyone. Yeah. Right, And this leads 345 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: us to something a pretty interesting theory that you've probably 346 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: heard of, which is the tragedy of the commons. And 347 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: the tragedy of the commons is this economic theory that says, uh, 348 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: if you're in a shared resource system, right, so, you're 349 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: in a community where everybody has like a common good 350 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: it's called water, air, nine LPs. Who knows, just like 351 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: it's something for the people, the way that you and 352 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: I typically order fries. Yeah. Um. The idea is that 353 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: when individual users are acting independently according to their own 354 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: self interests, they will tend to behave in ways that 355 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: deplete or spoil those common resources because everybody, everybody wants 356 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: their piece of the pie and would prefer not to 357 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: have to help create the pie, right And obviously, so 358 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: many people have argued complex ideological questions based on how 359 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: to address this dilemma of individuals trying to improve society, 360 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: to take a line from the Simpsons to ambigen society 361 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: or two improve themselves, even if such a thing might 362 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: have dangerous consequences right or unforeseen consequences down the road, 363 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: and it might sound. It might sound, folks, as if 364 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: Noel and I are dwelling on semantics, but we are not, 365 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: because it turns out that science backs this up. In 366 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: a two thousand twelve study in the journal Psychological Science UH, 367 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 1: they found that choice of words can exert a subtle 368 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: influence upon how we see ourselves, which then you know, 369 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: naturally influences how we behave. So in one part of 370 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: the study, people who answered a quote consumer response survey 371 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: tended to express more materialistic, self centered values. People who 372 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: did a survey that was called a citizen survey tended 373 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: to behave in a more a less selfish way. And 374 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: another part of the same survey, the researchers looked at 375 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: subjects with gave them a hypothetical situation where people um 376 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: had to join together and share water from a well, 377 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: and they were labeled as either consumers or citizens. And 378 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: the members of the study that got the consumer label 379 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,959 Speaker 1: tended to be completely distrustful of their cohorts and just 380 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: didn't want to share the water. They just were a 381 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: little crotchety about it, and they did not feel as 382 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: though they were on a team or in partnership with 383 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: the other subjects, and just felt overall less tied to 384 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: or responsible for the experience, and you know well being 385 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: honestly of their compatriots, as opposed to those who were 386 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: labeled citizens, who felt just the opposite, right, right, And 387 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: now we we if we are called one name or another, 388 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: it tends to affect our behavior. Now we see this 389 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: article by Maurice Goldman becomes even more important. I don't 390 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: want to say insidious, but I do want to say important, 391 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: because you know, on some level it might feel I 392 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: don't know, condescending or dominutive to say, oh, you are 393 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: not so smart, right, you are easily influenced, right if somebody, 394 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: if somebody calls me a name, that shouldn't influence my 395 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: behavior already, but apparently it does. Apparently we are a 396 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: little bit easier to steer than we would like to think. 397 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: And this goes back to the Bernese thing, right, the 398 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: idea of a of a citizen versus a consumer in 399 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: terms of active versus passive rules. Did you know that 400 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: the I'm sure you've heard the use of the term 401 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: consumption um to refer to tuberculosis, you know, so, I 402 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: mean it was definitely had very very negative connotations of 403 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: going back to The Atlantic article from Frank treatmanny as 404 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: a section where he talks about some of the history 405 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: of the term consumption uh and the as he calls it, 406 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: the heavy burden that it carried. And it was originally 407 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: from the term the Latin term consumer, which first presented 408 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: itself in French in the twelfth century and then into 409 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: English and other European languages later. And of course it 410 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: meant as I said, with the etymological um origins earlier, 411 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: using up wasting kind of implied of food or any 412 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: other um consumables for lack of a better term um. 413 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: But like I said, the idea of tuberculosis or wasting 414 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: disease being called consumption because it had this inherently like 415 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: it just eats you up. And that was very much 416 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: a sign of being irresponsible and not looking out for 417 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: the greater good of your community or family, what have you, 418 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: not being a good citizen. And we would be remiss 419 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: if we didn't just mention for a second everyone's favorite 420 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: fictional consumptive, which is Val Kilmer playing Doc Holiday in 421 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: Tombstone Bloody Rack. Yeah, man, what does he say? Who's who? Huckleberry? 422 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 1: I'm your Huckleberty Oh Yeah, I'm your huck You're my Huckleberry, 423 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: and Romance for the Ages, Romance for the Ages, and 424 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: history for the Pages, which rhymes but doesn't really make 425 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: sense if you think about it. So. Josh Passik is 426 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: an assistant professor of Communications studies at the University of Michigan, 427 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: and he he draws some conclusions based on this shift, 428 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: and he says it seems to underscore a shift away 429 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: from viewing Americans is having responsibility our political system and 430 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: toward a more individualist view of what it means to 431 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: be American. So, in his mind, the role of a 432 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: citizen is more active and the role of a consumer 433 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: is more passive. And in his mind, these are two 434 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: different things, right, They're not synonyms. He says, your job 435 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: as an American citizen requires that you fulfill key democratic 436 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: norms such as being informed, deliberating about political issues, and 437 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: participating in civic and political life. As an American consumer, 438 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,719 Speaker 1: he says, your actions are relevant only to the extent 439 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: that they respond to economic incentives. The responsibility to be 440 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: engaged and participatory is not your own, but instead depends 441 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: upon a system that is oriented to bring you in. 442 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: Unpack that for us ben Okay, sure, I would love to. 443 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: Uh so again. The idea, the idea of citizenship as 444 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: a responsibility, right, Like, I don't if you're a citizen, 445 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: you're not just supposed to show up and vote. You're 446 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: supposed to put some research time into it, right, and 447 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: be be aware. And you know, let's I mean not 448 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: for nothing, It's true that most people don't know their 449 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: congressional district. Yeah, I mean, if I'm being honest, I 450 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: voted the other day and there were a whole lot 451 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: of names on the ballot that I was not familiar with. 452 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: There were some races that I had followed very closely, 453 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: and I knew what I was signing up for. But 454 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's very difficult to be completely informed about 455 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: every aspect of the political process. But I guess what 456 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: the takeaway here is is that you know, just you 457 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: got to try to do your homework and consider beyond 458 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: just you know, your personal stake, what might be good 459 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: for your entire community. Because you know, with names that 460 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: can recognize on the ballot, if I had voted for 461 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: somebody just out of sheer, you know, randomness, What if 462 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: I accidentally voted for a monster or voted to keep 463 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: an incumbent in power that had done bad things for 464 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: the community that needed to be replaced. You know. So, uh, 465 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: if if I had gone in with that consumer mentality 466 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: about what's good for me, you know, and and maybe 467 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: I'm guilty of that in a certain sense, I would 468 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: only know what directly impacted me, Whereas if I had 469 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: gone in with much more of a you know, citizen, 470 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: good citizen attitude, then maybe I would have thought about 471 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: more what would affect areas that don't even affect me directly. 472 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: You know. It's a it's a dilemma, and we are 473 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: we are talking about the influence of behavior. We want 474 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: to be very clear that we're not We're not a 475 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: show that's going to like lecture people about politics. Yeah 476 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: for us, this is for us. This is a dilemma. Though. 477 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: It's a dilemma, and it's kind of a thought experiment too. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, 478 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: that's a good way to see it, because the question 479 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: and becomes you know, is one somehow better than the 480 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: other or they just different? I would say that they're different. 481 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: I would say that everybody has played the part of 482 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: a citizen. Everybody's played the part of it can sumer 483 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, you're not going into 484 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: uh Arby's for instance, who is not a sponsor of 485 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: the show of just thinking like different is good that 486 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: you're still around. Yeah, they're still getting funny commercials, but like, 487 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: you know, nobody's walking into Arby's and saying, you know, 488 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: at the at the soda fountain or at the little 489 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: ketchup stand, no one's saying like, what can I do 490 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: to make this ketchup stand better for everyone who comes 491 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: after me? Yeah? And you know, speaking to uh pass 492 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: ex quote about you know, as an American consumer, your 493 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: actions are relevant only to the extent they respond to 494 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: economic incentives, meaning and sometimes those incentives are just personal 495 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: fulfillment and you know pleasure. Uh and your jobs not 496 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: to read state you already said, Ben, but your job 497 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: as an American citizen requires you fulfill key democratic norms 498 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: just being informed and deliberating about political issues. So the 499 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: idea that uh, there is this gray area or this 500 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: kind of like fusion between the notion of a citizen 501 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: and a consumer is potentially problematic for people making choices 502 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: in in elections that actually help others or that if 503 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: that affect the greater good, If everyone's just voting for 504 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: you know what, we'll do good for themselves. And that 505 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: also plays into how politicians market themselves, you know, right right, 506 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: the same the same techniques that Edward Bernese pioneered are 507 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: now present not only in advertising, but are present in 508 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: a very real way in the political sphere. I gotta 509 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: tell you, man, did you ever did you did you 510 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: ever watch c SPAN? I mean, if if there's something 511 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: really crucial on, um, But now I have not not 512 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: just watch it like my grandpapa used to them. Yeah, 513 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: I used I used to. UM. I used to watch 514 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: c SPAN with my grandmother as well. Um, when Golden 515 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: Girls wasn't on. She loved Golden Girls. Hehaw and c 516 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: SPAN beautiful woman. You know it seems like a good mix. 517 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: And uh and uh. One of the things that got 518 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: me was years ago we were watching c SPAN at 519 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: her house and uh, a congress person was referring to 520 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: a a bill they were trying to pass as a product. 521 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: And then they said, we're going to get this product 522 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 1: out at the end of this time frame, and this 523 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: product is going to you know, be great for companies, 524 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 1: all interests of parties, stakeholders. And I didn't understand the 525 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: term because why would you call something like that a product. 526 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: You're selling it, You're selling it to your constituents. And 527 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: this guy, Frank Tripman, who wrote the article from the 528 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: Atlantic that I was talking about a little bit UM 529 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: is a professor of history at the University of London, 530 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: and he wrote a fantastic book called Empire of Things 531 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: How he became a world of consumers from the fifteenth 532 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: century to the one UM and he thinks that the 533 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: blurred jinction between these two UH cohorts, which ultimately have 534 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: become kind of the same thing, consumer and citizen, make 535 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: it really hard for people to come together to solve problems, 536 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: which is essentially what I was trying to get out. 537 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: We're both trying to get at ben Uh. And this quote, 538 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: I think really sums it all up nicely. Quote not 539 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: all consumers see the world in the same way, and 540 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: hence concerted action is very difficult. That's what I was 541 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: trying to get at. Where you know, when you have 542 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 1: a politician that's marketing themselves to a particular voter base, 543 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: and the um the desires of that voter base are 544 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: kind of a conflagration of like different UH sort of 545 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 1: self serving desires. So it's very difficult to like pick 546 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: out a platform or a thing or like to appeal 547 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: to all of these different you know angles and get 548 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:51,280 Speaker 1: elected kind of requires some weird backwards logic and convoluted thinking, 549 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: you know, especially when so many of those interests might 550 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: be contradictory. Exactly right here we are seen here, we here, 551 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: we are. But history doesn't stop here. I have to 552 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: wonder know what future historians will make of this shift, 553 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: which again occurred without my knowledge at all. Like I 554 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,240 Speaker 1: I did not notice other than my spider sense tingling 555 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: when I heard things laws referred to as products. Is 556 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: totally whooshed over my head. Man, I don't know. It's 557 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: a little insidious though, right, it kind of happens. It 558 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 1: just sort of kind of creeps in, you know, without 559 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: you even realize. Again, so are we citizens? Are we consumers? 560 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: I think it's a it's a choice we have to make. 561 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we're consumers when it comes to like, 562 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: you know, I like buying stuff. I like, you know, 563 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: nice clothes and things like that. But when you start 564 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: integrating that into the political process and how you vote, 565 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: as though it we're spending money and as though you're 566 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: being marketed to. That's problematic, I think, and it's an 567 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: interesting shift in history, and it's more than a little ridiculous. 568 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: It is, it is more than a bit ridiculous. We 569 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: hope that you find this dilemma or this this interesting 570 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: differentiation as fascinating as we do, and we'd like to 571 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: hear your thoughts. So please write into us and let 572 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: us know if you think this is a big deal, 573 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: if you think this is just relative, relatively small matter 574 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: of semantics. Uh, And most importantly, let us know if 575 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: you have found other linguistic shifts in your own experience, 576 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: and let us know what you think the implications of 577 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: those might be. You can write to Noel and I 578 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: at ridiculous at how stuff works dot com. But that's all. 579 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: You can find us on the internet to. Yeah, we're 580 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: on the social media. We've got a Facebook page, Ridiculous History. 581 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 1: Just google that and and give us a like. And also, 582 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: if you dig the show, please check us out on 583 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: iTunes and write us a nice review. That helps kind 584 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 1: of boost the show and the algorithm and all that, 585 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: and hopefully well people can discover it. Yeah, because we like, 586 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: you know, we like doing the show and we'd like 587 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: to continue doing it, so thanks for joining us for 588 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: this episode and we hope to see you next time 589 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: on Ridiculous History.