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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with

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Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody. Pre recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,

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Speaker 1: I hope that you have enjoyed this cookout week on

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Speaker 1: wok F where I've been in conversation with some of

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Speaker 1: my favorite friends and guests of wok F to really

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Speaker 1: dig into this week that we have been celebrating America's

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Speaker 1: independence and what that actually means, you know, can we

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Speaker 1: really have true conversations about liberty and justice for all

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Speaker 1: when most people are becoming conscious to and dare I

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Speaker 1: say woke to the very fact that the story, the

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Speaker 1: fairy tale of America is not the reality, the nightmare

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Speaker 1: that many people have been forced to live under. And

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Speaker 1: so in today's conversation, I'm really excited to bring back

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Speaker 1: one of my faves. And if you were a listener

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Speaker 1: to the early days of democracy Ish, then you know Torrey.

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Speaker 1: Torrey is the creative director over at The Grio and

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Speaker 1: the host of The Torrey Show. He is also the

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Speaker 1: host of the limited series Being Black the Eighties and

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Speaker 1: Toray and I get into a really in depth conversation

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Speaker 1: right on all the complexities and complications of you know

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Speaker 1: him navigating society as a black man of raising gen

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Speaker 1: Z kids. Who you know, I say to him, his

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Speaker 1: youngest is fourteen, and I damn half her life, right

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Speaker 1: has been already has been filled with chaos if you

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Speaker 1: think about it, right, she's fourteen. We've come out of

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Speaker 1: the last eight years for under Donald Trump, right, the

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Speaker 1: other four just you know, the year before he came

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Speaker 1: down the escalater and then the repercussions, all of the

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Speaker 1: ripple effects of MAGA, dam and fuckery and the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party turning into a full white supremacist cult, COVID right,

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Speaker 1: historic storms needing to be forced inside because of toxic

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Speaker 1: air from wildfires, like mass shootings, upon mass shootings. This

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Speaker 1: has been his youngest daughter's life. And he looked at

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Speaker 1: her and he will share this in conversation and said,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not always like this, and she kind

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Speaker 1: of looked at him and was just like, but isn't it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, folks, when you have the far right

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Speaker 1: want to use children as a political football, want to

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Speaker 1: use them as a talking point. I wonder if there

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Speaker 1: is anyone that ever asked them about how their policies

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Speaker 1: are actually long term going to effect these children that

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Speaker 1: will turn into adults. So you're pushing for more coal

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Speaker 1: and more oil, knowing good, goddamn well that that is

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Speaker 1: what is causing our planet to heat up, and all

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Speaker 1: of these historic storms that hey, we can't pay for

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Speaker 1: right and be like, we may not be able to

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Speaker 1: live through because each and every time that we have

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Speaker 1: these wildfires, these historic hurricanes and tornado seasons and all

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Speaker 1: of these things, people die, right, and it costs billions

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Speaker 1: of dollars to rebuild. And yet you have the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party and Joe Manchin Republican Light pushing policies that won't

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Speaker 1: affect them because they'll all be dead in a few years,

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Speaker 1: but it's sure as hell will affect the young people

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Speaker 1: who are inheriting a steaming pile of shit. And so

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Speaker 1: in my conversation with Torre, we talk about that what

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Speaker 1: it is like to parent during this time, what it

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Speaker 1: is like to you know, to try and provide hopefulness,

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Speaker 1: to provide guidance and faith as you yourself are trying

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Speaker 1: to take in all that is happening on a day

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Speaker 1: to day basis. This is a really robust and juicy

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Speaker 1: conversation with my friend to Ray that I hope you

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Speaker 1: all enjoy, folks. I am very happy to welcome back

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Speaker 1: to wok affidaily after a very long time. My friends were, ye,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to welcome you back. Now I feel good

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Speaker 1: about welcoming you back. And you're making me kind of

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Speaker 1: think twice about it now, my friend, wait till we

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Speaker 1: get into it. My friend Toray, who is the host

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Speaker 1: of the Torrey Show. He is also the creative director

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Speaker 1: at the Grio and had a limited series called Being

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Speaker 1: Black the eighties.

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Speaker 2: And and what else, founder of democracy issues.

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Speaker 1: Oh right, this show that has gone on so well?

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Speaker 1: AnyWho tore yes right democracy because I.

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Speaker 2: Have because you three shows?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good for you, Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: Geez.

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Speaker 1: So it's fourth of July week, right, you know when

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Speaker 1: white America loves to celebrate America's independence, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we have patriotic shirts that are sold. You got flags

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Speaker 1: that are waving everywhere. And yeah, but in majority of

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Speaker 1: the states in this country, right, critical thought is outlawed.

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Speaker 1: We can't really have conversations about what it means to

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Speaker 1: be an independent country, what it means to have liberty

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Speaker 1: at a time, to be gay, to be black, any

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Speaker 1: of these things. But so long as you can walk

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Speaker 1: into an old Navy and buy a flag shirt, you

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Speaker 1: and my friend are patriotic. So I'm wondering this week, right,

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Speaker 1: we've passed Juneteenth, which is actual liberation, if we really

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Speaker 1: want to talk about it, when all people in the

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Speaker 1: country were actually free and notified of said freedom, What

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Speaker 1: does the fourth of July mean to you?

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Speaker 2: Not really much. I mean the jingoism around America and

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Speaker 2: the quote unquote meaning of America. I mean, absolutely, Lance flat,

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Speaker 2: it's hypocritical. America has been a long conversation about who

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Speaker 2: actually is is a full human who is a full

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Speaker 2: part of America? And right at the beginning, it was like, well,

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Speaker 2: just white men, right, nobody else even gets to vote

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Speaker 2: to be a landowner, nobody else's part. We are having

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Speaker 2: that same conversation now right where the right is saying

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Speaker 2: women should not be a full participant in their own freedom,

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Speaker 2: in the agency of their own bodies. Black people should

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Speaker 2: not be a full participant in the democracy. Gay and

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Speaker 2: trans people should not be a full right. And the

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Speaker 2: conversation ultimately becomes who gets to be human? Right, because

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Speaker 2: they get to decide in their mind who gets to

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Speaker 2: be so they are full humans, right, white straight CIS men, right,

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Speaker 2: presumably middle class to upper middle class, right, a Christian right, right,

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Speaker 2: of course, right, because we're not talking about working class

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Speaker 2: white now they benefit, but they are not part of

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Speaker 2: the deciding structure. So yeah, we see a tremend this

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Speaker 2: amount of hypocrisy. The American dream is liberty for all,

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Speaker 2: everybody is welcome. But that's bullshit. It has never been

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Speaker 2: that country. It continues to not be that country. And

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Speaker 2: we're actually at a fairly frightening juncture.

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Speaker 3: I am a staunch optimist.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like things will work out at some point.

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Speaker 2: I know you, let's say you're more of a realist.

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Speaker 2: I was a pessimist, but more of a.

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Speaker 1: Realist, Okay, I'll take that. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Of like, no, like shit is going to hell, and like,

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Speaker 2: how has it changed? And the notion that a lot

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Speaker 2: of people have that the racists or the homophobes or

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Speaker 2: the transphobes will one day die out and we will

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Speaker 2: move on to more of a utopic where we are

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Speaker 2: accepting no, no, And it's a very dangerous notion to

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Speaker 2: think that they'll all just die out at some point.

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Speaker 2: All the racists and transphobes are not baby boomers, right,

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Speaker 2: there are gen xers, there are millennials, there are zoomers

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Speaker 2: who are you know, anti LGBTQ, racist, you know, misogynist.

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Speaker 3: What have you.

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Speaker 2: And you know, they may not be walking down the

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Speaker 2: street oppressing people at every second, but they believe things

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Speaker 2: that allow us to create a society that where you know,

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Speaker 2: those of us who are not straight white men sis

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Speaker 2: straight white men are second class citizens in some way.

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Speaker 2: They are perpetuating that whole system. A tremendous number of

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Speaker 2: millennials voted.

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Speaker 1: For Trump, right, and also, folks, forget that the people

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Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen that were marching in Charlottesville, they were

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Speaker 1: not sixty and up right, they were in their twenties

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Speaker 1: in their khaki shorts with their party city tiki torches. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you know, when we think about this idea that

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Speaker 1: they will die out. And the way that they have

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Speaker 1: been talking about the LGBTQ plus Commune, which I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about for a second, is stating that queer

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Speaker 1: people are pedophiles and groomors. However, when I see, right,

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Speaker 1: young kids that are in tiny, tiny KKK outfits, when

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Speaker 1: I see young kids that are holding up signs that said,

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Speaker 1: would you have aboarded me when I see all of

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Speaker 1: these things, you know, these parents flipping over tables at

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Speaker 1: school board meetings and punching teachers in the face. For

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Speaker 1: I don't know, reading The Little Mermaid right because it

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Speaker 1: now depicts a black woman. I think about all the

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Speaker 1: ways that the right has groomed hate right, that it

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Speaker 1: isn't something that is just Oh, this is how older

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Speaker 1: people think. And I wonder as somebody who who often

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Speaker 1: goes back through history interviews a lot of different people,

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Speaker 1: I think that the way that we've talked about the

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Speaker 1: civil rights movement has always made it seem like it

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Speaker 1: was one hundred plus years ago, when Ruby Bridges is

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Speaker 1: like sixty. Now. Do you think that the way we've

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Speaker 1: allowed the civil rights movement to be discussed to show

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Speaker 1: black and white pictures when we had color right, that

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Speaker 1: we've created this timeline that isn't actually real.

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Speaker 3: That's an interesting question.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, on Tori Show, I ask a

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Speaker 2: lot of people what does it mean to be black?

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Speaker 2: And for me, that really ties into an almost tangible

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Speaker 2: connection to all the people who came before us, whose

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Speaker 2: shoulders we stand on that allow us, you and I

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Speaker 2: to have the lives that we have now because our

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Speaker 2: parents could not have had this media gadfly experience, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, integrate whatever. Like, they didn't have that experience,

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Speaker 2: and their parents definitely did not have the freedoms that

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Speaker 2: we have. So to me, I don't think about the

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Speaker 2: Civil rights movement and Black Power movement it's sort of

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Speaker 2: super long ago, because I feel a tangible connection to it.

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Speaker 2: I am standing on its shoulders. I remember being in

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Speaker 2: college and thinking once it would be really interesting to

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Speaker 2: be in the CIA. I think a CIA recruiter was

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Speaker 2: coming and I was like, well, that would be a

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Speaker 2: cool ass job. But then at the same time, I

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Speaker 2: was like, you know, I need to do something that

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Speaker 2: pays back and speaks to the people whose shoulders that

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Speaker 2: I'm standing on, right. I was already thinking about that

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Speaker 2: sort of stuff in college and earlier.

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Speaker 3: And you know, you.

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Speaker 2: Can be the judge of whether or not I have

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Speaker 2: done that, but I was always thinking of, like, I

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Speaker 2: need to live a life that honors what I have

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Speaker 2: been given, the life, the opportunities that have been given

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Speaker 2: because of the people before us. So it's it's not

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Speaker 2: distant to me, you know, And I mean I have

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Speaker 2: I have a family member who was a black panther.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's very tangiblegible to me. I am a

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Speaker 1: realist and I used to be probably like a deep pessimist,

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Speaker 1: and I am a realist in the way that look

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Speaker 1: the artistism to.

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Speaker 2: Think I have a realist, you're a pessimist, but the

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Speaker 2: pessivist thinks I have the I know I'm a realists.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know.

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Speaker 2: Everybody, I think in a way everybody thinks they're a realist.

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Speaker 2: I'm an optimist, but I think I'm a realist. We

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Speaker 2: are going to get there one day. It's going to

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Speaker 2: be hard. I'm a person which means I'm a realist.

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Speaker 1: Because I'm not sure where we're I'm not sure where

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Speaker 1: we're trying to get to because it's never going to

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Speaker 1: be a utopia, Like we're never going to have the

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Speaker 1: kind of I guess the kind of dream actualize that

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Speaker 1: our ancestors had been fighting.

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Speaker 2: For that I want to say, well, utopia, Like I

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Speaker 2: don't even know what utopia looks like, right beyond what.

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Speaker 1: People being able to live in their skins and in

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Speaker 1: their body without oppression, without fear, without violence.

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Speaker 2: I think I think that it's important to eliminate the

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Speaker 2: notion of what is in white people's hearts and spirits.

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Speaker 3: I don't give a.

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Speaker 2: Fuck if you love me or if you think that

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Speaker 2: I'm equal to you. Right, And when we think about

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Speaker 2: the amount of internalized racism that we deal with, white

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Speaker 2: people absolutely have internalized racism. Right, they're not even challenging it, right,

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Speaker 2: most of the right. But to me, the most critical

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Speaker 2: aspect of the whole thing is the wealth gap. Right,

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Speaker 2: there's a massive racial wealth gap. I don't know the

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Speaker 2: numbers of a top my head, but you know they

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Speaker 2: are easily google able. The upper black family has a

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Speaker 2: fraction of what the average white family is. There is

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Speaker 2: essentially no black upper class, right. There's a tiny number

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Speaker 2: people who would constitute a black upper class. But there

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Speaker 2: is a black upper middle class, and a Black middle

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Speaker 2: middle class and a black lower middle class. But so

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Speaker 2: there's not sufficient wealth in our community to be able

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Speaker 2: to help each other when one of us has a problem.

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Speaker 2: One of the things I read talked about how black

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Speaker 2: people tend to have reverse inheritance, in that the older

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Speaker 2: generation has nothing, so when they get older and they

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Speaker 2: are sicker or a knee of help, we have to

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Speaker 2: take care of them.

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Speaker 3: Whereas in a lot of white.

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Speaker 2: Families where they were able to get a home loan

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Speaker 2: cheaply one hundred years of business. Now the right a

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Speaker 2: business loan. Now the grandparents are able to help out

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Speaker 2: the children and the grandchildren. Right, you need help with

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Speaker 2: your mortgage, with your down payment, with you know, your business,

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Speaker 2: like we are in a position.

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Speaker 3: We can help you.

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Speaker 2: Now we then to not have that. Right, So there's

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Speaker 2: all these different ways that the wealth gap, to me is.

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Speaker 3: The central ya. And if we can get we can

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Speaker 3: narrow that.

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Speaker 2: Sum, then we would have that would impact politics, that

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Speaker 2: would could impact criminal justice, that could impact schooling, impact

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Speaker 2: in so many ways the entire world. Now, somebody far

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Speaker 2: smarter than me said, the only way that that would

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Speaker 2: ever happen, the let's just call it not the equaling

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Speaker 2: but just just an evening out, would be reparations.

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Speaker 3: M Right.

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Speaker 2: We have to have an intrusive financial impact on the

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Speaker 2: journey of the black community to change the trajectory we

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Speaker 2: have because the way America is now, there is very

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Speaker 2: very little class ascension. Right, It's very hard to end

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Speaker 2: up not in the class that your father was born into. Right,

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Speaker 2: That's not the way America was supposed to be. That's

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Speaker 2: not the way America used to be. But that is

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Speaker 2: the way America is now, So how would we change it? Well,

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Speaker 2: at some point there will have to be some sort

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Speaker 2: of reparations.

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Speaker 1: But in order to have and because I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: about this, because I think about the people that have

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Speaker 1: been working on reparations, I think about the member of

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Speaker 1: Congress that introduces just the report, let us just do

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Speaker 1: a report. They won't even do that, right to see

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Speaker 1: where we would land. California had just come out and say, well,

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Speaker 1: if we were to provide reparations, I think it was

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Speaker 1: going to cost the state. It will cost the state

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Speaker 1: trillions of dollars, right, trillions of dollars in order to

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Speaker 1: do that. When we talk have conversations about reparations, it

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Speaker 1: always sounds like we are asking for some type of philanthropy,

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Speaker 1: that we're asking for some type of charity. And I'm saying, no, motherfucker,

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Speaker 1: give us back what you extracted. Right Like, if you

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Speaker 1: hadn't if you were required during reconstruction at that time

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Speaker 1: to give back the wealth that was taken from free

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Speaker 1: labor to provide land, we wouldn't be in this situation.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: They gave reparations to the slave slavelders like, so sorry,

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Speaker 1: so sorry, we took away your interns, because that's what

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Speaker 1: they call them in Florida textbooks. So sorry, we took

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Speaker 1: away your interns. So here's a fucking stipend.

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Speaker 2: And of course you know the history. It's not just

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Speaker 2: about slavery. It's about what happens in say, it's about

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Speaker 2: what happens in in Tulsa with other places where our

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Speaker 2: communities are destroyed. It's about wage theft and redlining.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that blows my mind that we

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Speaker 2: don't even know the full extent of is this whole

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Speaker 2: is it home assessment? Was that where somebody comes to

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Speaker 2: tell you the value of your home. Yes, but many,

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Speaker 2: many families have seen if the assessor and I might

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Speaker 2: not be using the right word there, thinks that it

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Speaker 2: is a black owned home.

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Speaker 1: They'll devalue it.

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Speaker 3: They'll devalue it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes as much as fifty percent, hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 2: of dollars. And only a few people are figuring out, well,

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Speaker 2: if I get my white friends to pretend it's their homes,

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Speaker 2: then it'll be more.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 2: We don't know how many tens and tens of thousands

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Speaker 2: of black people sold their.

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Speaker 1: Homes that were devalued by hundreds of thousands of dollars

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is money that did not come into

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Speaker 2: the community. On top of the money that was directly

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Speaker 2: given to white people. Here's a cheap home loan for

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Speaker 2: you the fifties and decades later, that adds up to

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Speaker 2: So it's it's just an extraordinarily difficult situation. Policing is

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Speaker 2: a whole different part of it. Schooling is a whole

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Speaker 2: different part of it. If we had a sufficient amount

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Speaker 2: of money in our community to have more self determination, yep,

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Speaker 2: then we could start looking at a world that has equity,

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Speaker 2: not even equality, but just equity. Right, then we could

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Speaker 2: start talking about creating better schools for ourselves, perhaps, you know,

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Speaker 2: having better lawyers to defend ourselves when we have issues.

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Speaker 1: But this is this is what Rosewood, this is what Tulsa,

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Speaker 1: this is what hundreds but lat I mean hundreds and

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Speaker 1: people because we only know and barely know the names

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Speaker 1: of those places that were destroyed. And so when I

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Speaker 1: think about even just the idea that white people created

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Speaker 1: around separate but equal, right, black people had created separate towns,

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Speaker 1: separate societies running their own buses, banks, school systems, like

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Speaker 1: all of those things. But white people couldn't take it, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they had to destroy it.

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Speaker 2: And those are just the big stories we know, right, right,

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Speaker 2: What about all the people who like the farmer who.

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Speaker 1: Lived in unincorporated towns, Yeah, who just you know, he

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Speaker 1: just had it and he built it up, and some

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Speaker 1: white people came.

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Speaker 3: Just stole it.

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Speaker 1: Right, there's thousands and.

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Speaker 2: Thousands of such stories. We've been screwed economically by this

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Speaker 2: country over and over and over, and slavery is just

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Speaker 2: one part of it. And it's not it's not just

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Speaker 2: a thing that happened. America does not become America without slavery, right,

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Speaker 2: it is the thing that leads to America becoming a

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Speaker 2: global economic power. And not really secondarily is the work

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Speaker 2: that the enslaved people did because cotton was then the

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Speaker 2: biggest product in the world. Right, so we're able to

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Speaker 2: produce cotton wave faster and cheaper because they not have

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Speaker 2: to pay the labor than anybody else. But no, it's

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Speaker 2: the value of the human beings.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And when we talk about reparations in the realm of

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Speaker 2: slavery and white people, some white people want to say, well,

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Speaker 2: my family didn't own slaves. Right, everybody in America who

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Speaker 2: benefits from the American economy benefits from slavery. Yep, right,

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Speaker 2: because the American economy is buttressed, is created by slavery.

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Speaker 2: But there's all sorts of other industries and institutions, insurance, transportation,

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Speaker 2: all sorts of people who never owned slaves but benefited

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Speaker 2: from the slavery. The gun industry becomes massive in America

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Speaker 2: because of all this. So there's all sorts of people

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Speaker 2: who are benefiting from slavery, never own slaves, and we should.

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Speaker 3: Be part of that.

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Speaker 2: And the fact and the idea that it's that it's

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Speaker 2: a controversial and revolutionary and basically unspeakable idea.

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Speaker 3: Right, you can't be a serious political thinker and.

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Speaker 1: Talk about ridiculous because who is going because the oppressor

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Speaker 1: is never going to give the oppressed the keys to

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Speaker 1: their liberation. Like that's just not how it ever works.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like when we have these conversations, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't even want to I don't want it to

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Speaker 1: be even referred to as reparations. I'm like, give me

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Speaker 1: back what the fuck you stole for, Like centuries upon

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Speaker 1: centuries we just named so many other ways outside of

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Speaker 1: chattel slavery, how we have been economically forced into ghettos

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Speaker 1: and in situations that have locked us into an economic

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Speaker 1: future that was going to sustain a not even a

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Speaker 1: working class, but a working poor, right, because that's what

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Speaker 1: they've wanted. I want to switch gear, and that's what

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about. I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: the way in which you have Republicans right now, like

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Speaker 1: Rohnda Santis, Greg Abbott and all of the Republican governors

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Speaker 1: across the state that are doing their damnedest to erase

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Speaker 1: black history, to ban critical literally ban critical thought, all

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Speaker 1: of it. I believe torre is about creating a permanent

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Speaker 1: under class, thank you. All of it is about creating

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Speaker 1: a permanent under class. And they want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that the demographic shift right that is coming that everyone

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Speaker 1: was like, yes, look, black and brown people are going

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Speaker 1: to be the majority. They're like no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's cute, right, because we're going to lock you in.

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Speaker 1: If we can't lock you into being the working class,

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Speaker 1: we're going to lock you into student loan debt because

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Speaker 1: we don't want to give you relief there because if

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Speaker 1: we give you relief there then you have opportunity for mobility,

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Speaker 1: and we don't want that.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me address two things. Yes, capitalism requires working poor,

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Speaker 2: right because somebody has to do the jobs at the

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Speaker 2: bottom of the totem pole. I shouldn't say that somebody

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Speaker 2: has to do the jobs at the bottom.

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Speaker 3: Of the ladder.

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Speaker 2: I mean New York's Manhattan still has relatively significant size

402
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Speaker 2: of real estate where there's.

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Speaker 3: Projects in Lower Manhattan.

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Speaker 2: And this, I believe this is the most in Manhattan,

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Speaker 2: the most expensive real estate in the country. So it

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Speaker 2: points out how valuable the working poor is that they

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Speaker 2: continue to have quite a bit of projects right in

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Speaker 2: Lower Manhattan. Right, that land is worth a lot of money,

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Speaker 2: right some of us right on the river, like, so

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Speaker 2: you know, clearly somebody is saying, I don't know, we

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Speaker 2: need some people here because if we have them coming

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Speaker 2: in from the outer burrows, that's not going to But

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Speaker 2: the other thing, you know, Nicole Hannah Jones is so brilliant.

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Speaker 2: She's a genius, and you know you have a real

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Speaker 2: fought leader when somebody can say things that really change

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Speaker 2: your thinking on things. And I had her on to

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Speaker 2: Ratio several years ago, and we were talking about that

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Speaker 2: twenty forty thing that white people are very focused on.

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Speaker 2: When when white people will become the minority? Now that

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Speaker 2: so the people of color, which I don't even like

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Speaker 2: that phrase, will become the majority, right, and we already

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Speaker 2: have I believe it's under age.

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Speaker 3: Ten and under age twelve. There are more black, brown.

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Speaker 2: And Asian people in this country than white people under

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Speaker 2: twelve or something like that. Nicole Handa Jones made a

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Speaker 2: really interesting point when I brought that up, and I know,

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Speaker 2: I remember in twenty sixteen, I remember Van Jones was

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Speaker 2: going around for CNN talking to Trumpers. Yes, yes, all

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Speaker 2: of that, yes, and they were bringing it up without

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Speaker 2: him asking about it, making different reference, sometimes coded, but

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Speaker 2: sometimes references to like this is our last chance, like

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Speaker 2: we were about to lose the majority in this country.

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Speaker 2: We need somebody to stand up for white rights, saying

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Speaker 2: essentially that. But what Nicoleana Jones said is that whiteness

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Speaker 2: is fluid and flexible and it will take people in.

436
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: You know, the Irish, the Italians. Jewish people were at

437
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 2: one point in America not truly white people, right, and

438
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 2: over time they were subsumed into whiteness, which increased the

439
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: power of whiteness. And her argument, which makes a lot

440
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: of sense, is that overtime Latino people will be subsumed

441
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: into whiteness, right, so that it then becomes so then

442
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 2: that increases the size of whiteness, and this change in

443
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: the demographics doesn't actually happen right now. This is this

444
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: is what she's this is what she's saying, and I

445
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,719
Speaker 2: put a lot of stock into what she says. So

446
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: I don't know if that reckoning or that pivot moment

447
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: when they become I don't know if.

448
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 3: That's gonna happen.

449
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 2: But also the coalition that on the other side of white,

450
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: there is black, brown, and Asian, right, Latino, Latina Asian.

451
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say LATINX because they don't say LATINX, right,

452
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: So it's like super woke to say LATINX.

453
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: They're not saying LATINX. So what are we doing?

454
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: Do we have shared political needs black people, Asian people

455
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: and Latino latinas I don't think so. I think we

456
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: have different outlooks on the world. I think we have

457
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: different things that we need politically. So looping us in

458
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: together is like a fear tactic to bond white people

459
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: because we're not all gonna align. I mean black people

460
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: don't all align the same issue. I think black, brown,

461
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: and Asian are all gonna align on the same issue.

462
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: Like no, I mean like to go with gross generalizations

463
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: and stereotypes. Asian people remain quote unquote the model minority.

464
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: Yep. Right. I'm not saying that they embrace.

465
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: That, no, but it's what's been placed on them by whiteness.

466
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: Yes, so they have a certain relationship to whiteness. Politically, right,

467
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: we see a lot of Latinos and Latinas voting Republican

468
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: right and some of the data is saying because they're

469
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 2: in their political thinking, they're not They're either not leading

470
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: with their ethnicity or they are trying to assimilate and

471
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 2: this is part of assimilation for them. And I'm sure

472
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: there's other reasons as well. But so are we going

473
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: to see this group of like all the people of

474
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: color are going to politically band together and get what

475
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: they want? Like, I don't think that's gonna happen, right,

476
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: You know, if we nominate a black person for president

477
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: or governor, are the Latinos, Latinas and Asians gonna say

478
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: that person's one of ours?

479
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: I feel like that is what But that is what

480
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: the Obama coalition was able to bring together so many

481
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: disparate groups of people under this idea of we can

482
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: better America. It wasn't under this context of like my

483
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: oppression is your oppression, or we have a shared enemy.

484
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: It was this idea of we all essentially want the

485
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: same things, and there is only a few people, right,

486
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: the one percent, the greed that is standing away from

487
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: all of us being able to have just a little

488
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: bit more.

489
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,959
Speaker 2: Right, Obama's so special because he has blackness and whiteness,

490
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: and he's able to see and feel and discuss these

491
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: issues in a different way. Right, I mean, like especially,

492
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: I mean in all of life, but especially in politics.

493
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: Tone and body language means so much. And just Obama

494
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: could say things in a way that white people could

495
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: hear other politicians Black Asian could not hear. And you know,

496
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: you wonder if you'll ever see anybody like that in

497
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: our lifetime.

498
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 1: Again, probably not. The last question I have for you

499
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: goes back to our opening around optimism and realism pessimism.

500
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: You have kids, right, you have you have teenage Yeah,

501
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: you have teenagers who are inheriting a planet that is

502
00:31:54,440 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: on fire, that is under water that is, you know, unsafe.

503
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: We had to go inside, you know a couple like

504
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: go inside again right with mass On because the air

505
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: was not safe. Why because the earth is getting warmer?

506
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: Why because of global warming and trees going up in

507
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: smoke and the toxins and all of these things. They've

508
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: seen so much as young people. They've seen George Floyd video.

509
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: They've heard about Tyree Nichols, they've heard about you know,

510
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: Breonna Taylor, whether or not you've actually if they've actually

511
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: seen the videos, but it's out there, right. They're growing

512
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: up in a world that is so different and different

513
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: in my humble appealion as in bad from when I

514
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: was fourteen and sixteen years old, right, I interviewed, I

515
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: not interviewed, but I talked to a group of teenagers

516
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: the other day and I asked them, you know, what

517
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: are some things you're fearful of? Do you know what?

518
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: They all talked about, not having enough money to be

519
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: able to take care of their family. These were This

520
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: was at my old high school, majority white school in

521
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: you know, on Long Island, and all their fear was

522
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: money and climate change. And so I'm wondering, where are

523
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: your how are your kids feeling about the world that

524
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: they're going to inherit are they would you label them

525
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: as being optimists? We can take this on.

526
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: My son is more of a political thinker right now

527
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: than my daughter, but that could funk. That may partly

528
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: be a function of age and as she grows should

529
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: be more. But I mean, he, like many in his

530
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: generation are are furious about the climate situation and are

531
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 2: and feel like, you know, like a direct anger at

532
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 2: Gen xers, And I'm like, it's really the boomers you're

533
00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: wren mad out, not us, but like you fucked up

534
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: our planet. I mean, just the same way as if

535
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: if you came home and your house was on fire

536
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: and and like you know, your little your your mom's

537
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: sitting there. You'd be like, mom, what the fuck you

538
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: destroyed my house?

539
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 3: Like I live here, yep, and like that, and the

540
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 3: rage about that is.

541
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: Palpable, you know. I mean, in my son's mind, in

542
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: twenty forty, the earth will will cease to exist. I'm like,

543
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: I don't think that's the future we're headed for, but he's.

544
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 3: Like, that's what I read.

545
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 2: And fuck you for contradicting me, because I'm gonna have

546
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: to deal with this shit. And you're gonna be dead,

547
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: old man, Like seriously, he was trying to say that.

548
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 3: I'm like, go to your room.

549
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: Fuck you.

550
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: He is a cursed But basically so, no, there's there's

551
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: there's tremendous an you know. I did say to my

552
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: daughter the other day because she's really only been really

553
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: paying attention to politics.

554
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 3: For like five years.

555
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: Right, she's fourteen, right, and it's been Trump and it's

556
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: COVID and then you know, the sky is yellow and

557
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 2: then like you know, oh, it's it. And I'm like,

558
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, honey, it's not normally like this, and she's like,

559
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: like what I mean, like like on Earth, like in America,

560
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: Like it's not normally like this, Like.

561
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 3: It's usually a little more.

562
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 2: It's been incredibly intense the last like what five six years.

563
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: It's not normally like this. It's you now. Is that

564
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: going to change?

565
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't know that that's going to change.

566
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 2: I think like this is where we are now because

567
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 2: of the Republican Party, because of the nature of media,

568
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: because of so many things, the nature of the division

569
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: in the country, and the entitlement and the empowering of

570
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: you know, the most fringe and angry aspects of our country.

571
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 2: It's much more intense. It seems to becoming much faster.

572
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: It's much more stressful.

573
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, it didn't used to feel.

574
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 2: I don't talk about the ten twenty thirty years ago.

575
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: We disagreed with the Republicans, but.

576
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: I didn't actively think they were trying to kill me though, right,

577
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 1: you know different.

578
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: I think I mean around Bush and Gore. It started

579
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 2: to take a turn. It started to get more intense

580
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: and nastier. I felt like, wow, this is like the

581
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: nastiest it's ever been in like terms of like the

582
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: political climate. I remember I was on a plane and

583
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: I was reading the Nation and it was something. The

584
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: article was something I think it was something about Gore,

585
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 2: and the stewardess just just being nice, just parroted the

586
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 2: headline of like, oh like something something effective, like what

587
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: does it say about Gore? And the person across from

588
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 2: me was clearly a Bushy and he said something nasty

589
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: about Gore, and I said something back to him, because

590
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: we're super anti Bush, right, w was the devil before Trump? Yeah,

591
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: and and and and like everybody kind of caught themselves

592
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: and was like, we're not gonna have a fucking intellectual

593
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: argument on a plane, so everyone's but it was like

594
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: it's just everyone's so on edge and like fuck you,

595
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 2: and and that was the most intense I have felt

596
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: it ever was. And around the Iraq War, we were

597
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 2: all very angry, and I feel like we're way past

598
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: that in terms of the intensity and the anger in

599
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: the country, and I'm not sure how we get it back.

600
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: And I'm trying to tell my daughter it's not always

601
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: like this, but like, maybe this is how it is now.

602
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: Oh that makes me sad, but that's where you live.

603
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: I know you live, but I don't want to but honestly,

604
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: I don't want to believe that that is just like

605
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: this is going to be her norm. But in thinking

606
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: about the fact that she's fourteen and the last set

607
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 1: five to seven years have been absolutely like so half

608
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: her life has actually been fucking insanity, it's hard to

609
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: tell her it's not always like this. And she's just like, really,

610
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: because I've only been around a little bit, right, and

611
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: it just doesn't feel like seems bad.

612
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 3: So she's it is better on the other planet that

613
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: was go back to.

614
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: That Earth two does sound nice, not where Republicans are,

615
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: but Earth too, where our doppelgangers are my friend Tore,

616
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: thank you for making the time for wok f and

617
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: a conversation that leaves me wondering. Are we all pessimists, optimists, realists.

618
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 1: I think society is making us sad.

619
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: I feel you should.

620
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: That is it for me today on woke f as

621
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: always power to the people and to all the people. Power.

622
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: Get woke and stay this fot