1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: I am Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. Holly, 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: have you ever been on Stepo Mason? I don't know. 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: I don't really either. I mean, I've certainly taken my 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: fair share of antibiotics, but yeah, Strepto mycin was a 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: pretty groundbreaking one. Um. It still has lots of uses, 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,639 Speaker 1: and the person who usually gets the credit for its 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: invention is a guy named Selman Waksman. He's a bacteriologist 10 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: who published more than four hundred scientific papers. He wrote 11 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: or co wrote eighteen books, and he and his students 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: and colleagues isolated lots of new antibiotics in the nineteen forties. 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: These included Strepto micn and neo mycon. Those are the 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: two most well known of the ones that actually got 15 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: some practical use. Some of the others did not have 16 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: practical uses. Uh, and all of this earned him the 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: nickname Father of Antibiotics. He won the Nobel Prize in 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: Physiology or Medicine in nineteen fifty two, along with more 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: than sixty other awards, and twenty two honorary degrees, but 20 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: there is some dispute about whether he actually deserves the 21 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: credit for having discovered strap to Maycin. So today we're 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: going to talk about his life and his background in 23 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: the whole strap to Mycen controversy. Cool We should probably 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: start at the beginning, though, right let's do so. Selman 25 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: Abraham Walksman was born on July eight, eight eight, near 26 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: Kiev in what is now Ukraine. His parents were Jacob 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: Waksman and Fredia London Walksman. His father rented out houses 28 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: that he owned, and his mother ran a dry goods business. 29 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: He also had a little sister, who died of diphtheria 30 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: when she was very young. The whole family were out Jews. 31 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 1: Walksman had a philanthropic disposition, and he and some friends 32 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: organized a school for poor boys, as well as caring 33 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: for the sick. His education started at a Jewish religious school, 34 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: and his mother was worried that focusing only on religious 35 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: study with limit his potential in the future, so she 36 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: also hired private tutors to educate him in other areas. 37 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: In nineteen ten, he got a diploma from the Fifth 38 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: Gymnasium in Odessa as a Jew he didn't have a 39 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: lot of opportunities for higher education within the Russian Empire. 40 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: His mother had also passed away not long before his graduation, 41 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: and many of his family had already moved to the 42 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: United States to escape persecution, so he decided to emigrate 43 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: as well. Uh and he stayed with a cousin who 44 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: had a farm in New Jersey. He started college at 45 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: Rutger's on a scholarship in the fall of nineteen eleven, 46 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: and he got a Bachelor of Science and Agriculture there 47 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifteen. He went on to work on a 48 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: master's at Rutgers, and while there he worked as a 49 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: research assistant in soil bacteriology at the New Jersey Agriculture 50 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: Experiment Station. In nineteen sixteen, he received his masters and 51 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: became a U. S citizen officially. That year. He also 52 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: married Deborah b. Mitnick, who was an artist and vocalist 53 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: who was from the same part of Russia where he 54 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: had grown up. They later had a son named Byron, 55 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: who went on to become an immunologist and to teach 56 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: at Harvard and Yale. Walksman went on to get additional education. 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: He received his pH d in biochemistry from the University 58 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: of California at Berkeley in nineteen eighteen. After Waksman graduated, 59 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: Dr J. G. Lippmann, who he had worked for as 60 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: a research assistant while working on his masters, invited him 61 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: to come back to Rutgers. He started as a lecturer 62 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: and worked his way up in the university, focusing most 63 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: of his research on soil microbes. He became professor of 64 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: microbiology and head of the microbiology department when it was 65 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: founded in nineteen forty. When Rutgers established an Institute of 66 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: Microbiology in nineteen forty nine, he became its director, and 67 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: when he retired in ninety eight, he actually kept a 68 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: lab and office at the institute and continued to do 69 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: some work there, although he really spent much more of 70 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: his time writing and giving lectures. In addition to all 71 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: his work on soil bacteriology, he also worked in marine bacteriology. 72 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: He helped organize the Woods Whole Oceanographic Institutions Division of 73 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: Marine Bacteriology in the thirties. His work there continued until 74 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: the early forties, and from there he became a trustee. 75 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: And of course what he is most famous for, he 76 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: developed a bunch of antibiotics. Dr Waxman's master's and PhD 77 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: work had focused on bacteria known as actin of mice eats. 78 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: These are anaerobic microbes that live in the soil. They 79 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: use branching filaments to create these colonies or mysilia, so 80 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: they resemble bacteria in their size and their physiology, but 81 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: this filament structure is more like what you'd think with 82 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: a fungus. While most of the acton of my seats 83 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: are harmless, some of them can carry disease and others 84 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: can produce antibiotics. In seven Renee Dubois, a French biologists, 85 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: joined Dr Walksman's lab and he was studying the interactions 86 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: between organisms in the soil and the way cellulose broke 87 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: down in this process. He actually pinpointed a bacterium that 88 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: attacks strepped a caucus pneumonia, which as the name suggests, 89 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: causes pneumonia, and this inspired Dr Walksman and his colleagues 90 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: to look for other soil microorganisms that could fight against pathogens. 91 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: And this is a pretty logical leak. Lots of bacteria 92 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: in the soil are competing for a limited amount of 93 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: real estate and food, so logically they need to be 94 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: able to compete with each other and defend themselves and 95 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: attack each other. So, working with a grand student named H. 96 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: Boyd Woodroffe, Dr Walksman started systematically looking for antimicrobial activity 97 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: in soils. And what they would do is isolate these 98 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: colonies of specific microbes from the soil and then they 99 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: would culture those colonies in a petrie dish and then 100 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: exposed them to other microbes to see if inhibition zones 101 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: formed around the colonies, which in my head is like 102 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: a bacterial version of robot battles. Kind of. They just 103 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: kind of were like, let's grow this one and this one, 104 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,679 Speaker 1: put them together and fight fight fight. Yeah, yeah, that's 105 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: that's sort of like what it was, except that robot 106 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: battles are exciting. This is kind of a slow burn. 107 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: Is tedious, painstaking work. They had to isolate thousands of 108 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: different microbes, grow colonies of them, and then test them 109 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: against specific disease causing bacteria and a petri dish. This 110 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: was It was a very labor intensive, delicate work that 111 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,559 Speaker 1: had to be done very precisely so they didn't contaminate things. 112 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: And over the years, more than fifty graduate students and 113 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: visiting scholars took part in this project, they were really 114 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: taking a shotgun approach to getting lots of bacteria it 115 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: from the soil and seeing what they did. So they 116 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: needed lots of people to carry out these instructions and 117 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: do the actual things. So once they had isolated a 118 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: particular bacterium and found it to have some kind of 119 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: beneficial activity, they then had to work out how to 120 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: further isolate just the antimicrobial compound it produced. This could 121 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: involve everything from solvents too very precise temperature controls. The 122 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: first such bacterium that Woodruff isolated was named Actinomyces antibioticus. 123 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: This was a species of Actinomyces that produced a substance 124 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: that could both kill and inhibit the growth of bacteria, 125 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: so it was both bacteria static and bacterious sidal. He 126 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: called this substance actinomycin, and he discovered that you could 127 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: use petroleum to separate it into two distinct substances. One 128 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: killed bacteria and halted its growth and the others simply 129 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: killed it. So it was pretty cool. I was able 130 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: to kill some bad bacteria, but unfortunately actinomycin was super 131 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: toxic to other living things, not just bacteria, so it 132 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: didn't really have any sort of pharmacological benefit at that point, 133 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: but Dr Waxman didn't give up there. He went on 134 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: systematically testing various actin of ice seats, looking for ones 135 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: that produced antibiotic substances that weren't so toxic to the 136 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: plants or animals that needed to fight off infection. And 137 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: a lot of this work happened through lots of assistance 138 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: and graduate students in lab text and those types of 139 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: people doing the actual work based on this idea. Yeah, 140 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: because as you said, it was a shotgun approach. They 141 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: were looking at lots of different things. Everything needed attention 142 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: and things to be done to it. One person could 143 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: not have handled all of that lab work. Uh So, 144 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: two years later, Woodroffe isolated UH strepto thricin, which looked 145 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: more promising than actinamycin, but it turned out it was 146 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: still toxic. The toxic city just took a little while 147 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: to kick in, so it wasn't immediately a parent that 148 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: it was toxic. Delayed response. Eventually, Dr Watsman, his grad students, 149 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: and his colleagues found more than twenty bacteria produced substances 150 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: that could fight infections. He also suggested the term antibiotics, 151 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: which had first been used as early as eight one 152 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: as a name for this growing class of antimicrobial agents, 153 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: and of course, in the midst of all of this, 154 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: a controversy kind of grew out. Uh In nineteen forty 155 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: four came the discovery that had the most impact on 156 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: human health, and that was stripped a mycin. Streptomycin was 157 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: active against tuberculosis, and it was the first antibiotic to 158 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: successfully treat the disease, so that was huge. Tuberculosis had 159 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: existed for basically all of human history. Uh In one 160 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: a vaccine had been developed in France using a bovine 161 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: strain of tuberculosis that wasn't as virulent, but before strapped 162 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: to mycin, there was really no effective treatment for people 163 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: who got it. In the nineteenth century, tuberculosis was responsible 164 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: as many as a quarter of the deaths in Europe, 165 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: and it often struck people who were otherwise pretty young 166 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: and healthy. All three Bronte Sisters, John Keats, Frederick Chopin, 167 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: Friends Kafka, and many other notable people died of tuberculosis. 168 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: When you read about somebody dying of consumption, tuberculosis is 169 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: what they're talking about. And as a side note, My 170 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: grandmother actually had tuberculosis and spent part of her childhood 171 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: in a tuberculosis sanatorium recovering. I don't want to say 172 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: that's cool, because it's not. But it's neat historical reference 173 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: point to hand. Yeah, it's a personal historical reference point 174 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: I have to this particular story. So that made the 175 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: discovery of streptomycin extremely important. It was also very important 176 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,239 Speaker 1: because World War Two was underway and the military desperately 177 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: needed more tools to fight infection. But Dr Waksman wasn't 178 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: actually the person who isolated strepped a mice's grissiest, which 179 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: was the bacterium that produced strepped a micn That distinction 180 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: goes to another of Dr Waksman's grad students, Albert Schotz, 181 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: who was listed as co author on the first paper 182 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: about as grissias. Here's how strepped demyces grisseas went from 183 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: a bacterium to a drug. In N nine, Murk and 184 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: Company had contacted Dr Waksman with a proposal. Dr Waksman 185 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: and his researchers would carry on methodically identifying antimicrobial activity 186 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: and soil, and then Mark would pick up the follow 187 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: up and research and development that would be needed to 188 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: turn these discoveries into actual marketable drugs. Mark would do 189 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: all the efficacy and safety tests uh the kind of 190 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: stuff that that Dr Waksman and his team couldn't really do, 191 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: and Mirk would give. As part of this arrangement, Dr 192 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: Waksman and his team acknowledgment and any patents that it 193 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: obtained for the drugs. In return, Rutgers would get a 194 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: percentage of the royalties from the sale of the drug. 195 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: And this was meant to be an exclusive agreement between 196 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: Murky and Rutgers slash Dr Waksman. And thanks to this agreement, 197 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: when Albert Schottz isolated strepto mices Grissiest, Mark was able 198 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: to supply the Mayo Clinic with enough strepped a MYCN 199 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: for the necessary trials. By with the help of Mayo 200 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: Clinic doctors William Feldman and H. Corwin Henshaw, Streptomycin had 201 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: made its way through animal trials and into clinical trials. 202 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: In the process, it was proved to be effective against 203 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: typhoid fever, ubonic plague, cholera, and others. In addition to TV, 204 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: it was a broad spectrum antibiotic effective on both gram 205 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: positive and gram negative bacteria and Matt made it pretty 206 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: much a groundbreaking wonder drug. Yeah. It was such a 207 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: success that Dr Waksman was no longer comfortable with his 208 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: original exclusive agreement with Mark. The need for the drug 209 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: was too great, so he renegotiated their deal to have 210 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: the patent assigned to Rutgers and licensed to Mark and 211 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: other manufacturers, and for that Rutgers would receive a royalty. 212 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: So he basically just wanted it to be produced in 213 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: great volume, as quickly as possible, for as many people 214 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: as possible. This patent was granted in under the new 215 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: deal with Mark, of the royalties on the drugs manufacturer 216 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: would go to Rutgers and would go to Dr Watsman. 217 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: The university used this money to fund its Institute of 218 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: Microbiology and set up an endowment for the institute. Dr 219 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: Waksman shared some of the money that came to him 220 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: personally with the assistance and students who had worked on 221 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 1: the patent with him. He also established a Foundation for 222 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: Microbiology to support microbiological research with half of the of 223 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: the royalties that came to him, and he also set 224 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: up a scholarship for immigrant students at Ruggers. His wife 225 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: also established a music scholarship at Rutgers. So from that 226 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: one discovery, a lot of benefit happened to a lot 227 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: of people. Right apart from the medical benefit, there was 228 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: a lot of educational benefit for a lot of people. 229 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: In ninety nine, Albert Shots, who's the person who had 230 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: identified the two strains of bacteria that made steptomycin, sued 231 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: Dr Waksman. His argument was that streptomyson existed only because 232 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: of his initial discovery, and that Dr Waksman had stopped 233 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: acknowledging his contribution, keeping all of the credit for himself. 234 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: Dr Waksman's counter argument was that Shots was working as 235 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: an assistant on his project using his methodology, which had 236 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: previously identified many other bacteria that produced anti microbial compounds. So, 237 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: in Waksman's view, Shots was basically a technician carrying out 238 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: his project based on his idea. According to Peter Pringle, 239 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: who was the author of the book Experiment eleven Dark 240 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: Secrets Behind the Discovery of a Wonder Drug, which chronicles 241 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: the discovery and subsequent lawsuit, Dr Waksman's defense team made 242 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: all kinds of specious accusations against Shots, including false accusations 243 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: that his uncle had stolen his no books in the 244 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: lab and removed crucial papers before returning them. Pringle's account 245 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: characterizes Dr Waksman as a self aggrandizing bully who made 246 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: his lab assistance to grunt work with no credit, while 247 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: he got all the glory and built everybody who contributed 248 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: to the project out of the money that they were 249 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: entitled to from the royalties. He also characterizes the allegation 250 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: of the stolen notebooks as faults. The papers were actually 251 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: somewhere else entirely due to the patent filings that were 252 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: going on at the time, and the missing page, which 253 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: there was really a missing page, was much later in 254 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: the experiment than the point where Shots had isolated the 255 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: bacterium that gets the credit for making step Tomison. But 256 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: Rolin D. Hotch Kiss, writing for the National Academy of Sciences, 257 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: characterizes Dr Waksman as a philanthropic man whose pride was 258 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: tempered with modesty, and whose colleagues viewed him with admiration 259 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: and really warm respect. The case between Shots and Waksman 260 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: went on for a year and was settled in night 261 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: teen fifty in the settlement of the of the royalties 262 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: that were not going to Rutgers, Walksman would get ten percent, 263 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: Shots would get three percent, and the other people who 264 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: had participated in the project would split up the remaining 265 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: seven percent. The Nobel prize in nineteen fifty two went 266 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: to Dr Walksman only, although the award speech also referenced Shots, 267 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: the Mayo Clinic doctors who conducted the trials on the drug, 268 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: and others who had participated in the research. Some of 269 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: the Shots supporters petitioned the Nobel Committee to give the 270 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: prize to Shots as well, but in the end the 271 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: prize went only to Dr Walksman. This was really a 272 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: common practice at the time. The Nobel Committee generally would 273 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: recognize the senior scientist on a project um and not 274 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: more junior scientists are assistants who had helped with it. 275 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: But Scientific American has this event listed as one of 276 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: history's ten biggest Nobel snubs. A two thousand two articles 277 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: in Nature described the Shots Walksman incident as an example 278 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: of the misattribution of scientific discovery as being widespread in 279 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: the world of science. In response to this Nature article, 280 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: writing in the Journal of the History of Medicine and 281 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: Allied Sciences, William Kingston described Shots as discovery as a 282 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: matter of luck. Because of the systematic way that Dr 283 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: Waksman was having his assistants work, it could have been 284 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: any one of them to isolate the bacterium that led 285 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: to streptomycin. This actually led to some back and forth 286 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: in the Letters to the Editor in which Kingston goes 287 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: up against Milton Wainwright, author of Miracle Cure the story 288 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: of penicillin in the Golden Age of antibiotics. Back and 289 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: forth is basically, I see it this way, I see 290 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,239 Speaker 1: it this way. Yeah, there's not on both sides. So 291 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: clearly this argument is really far from over, and both 292 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: people who were the key players in it have died. 293 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: Dr Waksman died on August sixteenth, nineteen seventy three, and 294 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: Albert Shots, who did go on to become a doctor 295 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: and have a career in science, died on January seventeen, 296 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and five. The lab where all this happened, 297 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: which is Martin Hall on the campus at Rutgers, was 298 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: actually turned into a museum to the development of antibiotics 299 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: at the university. On two thousand five, the American Chemical 300 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: Society named the lab a National Historic Chemical Landmark and 301 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: installed a plaque commemorating it on the Cook campus. So 302 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: the debate rages on, but we still recognize it as 303 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: a very important place and discovery. The debate. Yeah, and 304 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: I have after having done the research, I cannot decide 305 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: how I really feel about the debate. Like Albert Schatz 306 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: was clearly very upset and felt like he was working 307 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: at just crazy long hours in a lab bent on 308 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: finding a cure for tuberculosis, which clearly was true. That's 309 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: sort of what being a graduate assistant is like a 310 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: lot of the time. Um, But it's hard to to 311 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: substantiate some of the claims that he makes about Dr Waksman, 312 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: Like he he claims that Dr Waksman was not really 313 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: about finding a cure for tubercular system, was definitely afraid 314 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: of tubercularists and didn't want to have it in a lab. 315 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure how we could back that up. Yeah, 316 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: without going through well in the characterizations made of Dr 317 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: Waksman seemed counter to what all of his colleagues felt 318 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: about him. But then we're still going on a this 319 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: person said, this person said, this person said thing. You 320 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: can't really Yeah, it's a it's a very by that scientifically, 321 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: there's some level of he said, he said about it, 322 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: and both of the keys are deceased at this point. 323 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: But it's just unquestionable how important that discovery was, regardless 324 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: of who ultimately should get the most credit for it. 325 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: And it sounds like a lot of the money ended 326 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: up really going to Yeah, the bulk of the money 327 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: went directly back into education, into and neither of these people. 328 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: So it's interesting fight to be happening. Yeah, like take 329 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: a moment talk about stamps dot com. 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Do 369 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: you also have listener mail? Uh? This listener mail is 370 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: from Doug. It's about our episode on Robin Hood. Doug said, 371 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: is I enjoyed listening to your podcast on the origins 372 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: of Robin Hood. One area you didn't cover was the 373 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: possible folkloric origins of Robin Hood and his associations with 374 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: the green Man. The green Man is a figure that 375 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: appears in decorations, particularly churches throughout Europe. He's usually depicted 376 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: as a face peering from the greenery, often with the 377 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: foliage of appearing from his mouth. Here's a good example. 378 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: He sends a link to it. His origins are a mystery, 379 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: but he appears to be a holdover from paganism that 380 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: got co opted by the Christian shirts Church in the 381 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: same way that churches are often cited on pagan sites 382 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: of worship. In England at least, he's generally associated with 383 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: churches dedicated to certain saints. Particularly Mary. He's probably worth 384 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: a podcast by himself. Robin Hood has been associated with 385 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: the green Man, variously as the green Man himself, as 386 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: an aspect or as an attendent spirit. They've both been 387 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: associated with the May Games and connected to Mary. Disentangling 388 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: the who, what, where and how is a hopeless task, 389 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: but it's worth consideration alongside the purely historical possibilities. This 390 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: connection has been touched on in one of the movies 391 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: robin Hood with Patrick Bergin and Name with Thurman, which 392 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: she might enjoy more than the Kevin Costner version. I 393 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: can attest that that is true. I like the Patrick 394 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: Bergin version much better. As a side note, the death 395 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: of Robin Hood where he fires an arrow and is 396 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: buried where the arrow lands echoes the story of the 397 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: giant Pierce Shaks a story local to my mother's area 398 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: of Hertfordshire. Robin Hood doesn't have an outrage devil after 399 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: him now, Doug. So thank you so much Doug for 400 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: writing this letter. Um, you are very right in the 401 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: part about separating out or you know, disentangling all this 402 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: would be a hopeless task, and that's the reason that 403 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: I didn't get into it in episode well, because he 404 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: mentions it to it. Really, there's so much myth and 405 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: laura around green Man that yeah, it can be its own. 406 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: I went down a green Man robin Hole Robin hole, 407 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: go into kind of green Man robin Hood rabbit hole 408 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: for a while while researching the podcast, and once I 409 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: fought my way back out of it, I was like, 410 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: I just need to not get into this. It's gonna 411 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: be a long digression that's going to be more speculation 412 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: than anything else. So that is something that a couple 413 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: of scholars, especially medievalists who uh have written about lots 414 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: of different parts of medieval culture that spanned religion and folklore, 415 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: have kind of pointed out that They're like, there are 416 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: churches where there's lots of green Man imagery in the church, 417 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: and that's also where some of the first Robin Hood 418 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: plays were staged. Like, so there's connections, but a lot 419 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 1: of them are pretty speculative and we don't know what 420 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: quite where they came from. So the whole podcast was 421 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: already really spa it's all dotted lines, but then and 422 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: then I was like, here's even more speculations. So that's 423 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: why we did not really dive into the green Man 424 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: part of robin Hood. But that is something that you 425 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: can find some information about if you don't mind getting 426 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 1: a the weeds on it for a bit, and they 427 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: could one day become another podcast on item. Yes, so 428 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: thank you very much for writing to us about that. Good. 429 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us about this 430 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: or any other episode or topic, you may We're at 431 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're also on Twitter 432 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: at mist in history and on Facebook at Facebook dot 433 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: com slash history class Stuff. You can find us on 434 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: Tumbler at mt in history dot tumbler dot com, and 435 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: we are on Pinterest too. If you would like to 436 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: learn more about what we've talked about today, you can 437 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 1: put the word antibiotics in our search bar. 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