1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,960
Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

2
00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:04,920
Speaker 1: to sexual assault.

3
00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,160
Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.

4
00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,200
Speaker 3: What we find in true crime often is when people

5
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 3: call killers monsters. Is this idea that if we can

6
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,279
Speaker 3: distance killers from ourselves, from our own human urges, then

7
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,279
Speaker 3: we don't have to deal with the reasons that these

8
00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:28,040
Speaker 3: people actually manifest, things like no access to healthcare, poor housing,

9
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,560
Speaker 3: poor education, These kind of things the society is directly

10
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:32,320
Speaker 3: responsible for.

11
00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

12
00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,800
Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

13
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,440
Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

14
00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,400
Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

15
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,080
Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

16
00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 1: studio over zoom and they are all excellent writers. They've

17
00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories. Do you want

18
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,320
Speaker 1: to tell you those stories with details that have never

19
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,479
Speaker 1: been published? Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is about

20
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,679
Speaker 1: the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's a

21
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:16,920
Speaker 1: deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Hannah Maguire

22
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,880
Speaker 1: and Saruti Bala are the hosts of the true crime

23
00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,320
Speaker 1: podcast Red Handed. On the show, they break down cases

24
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,760
Speaker 1: that fascinate all of us, and then they wrote a

25
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,320
Speaker 1: book based on their extensive research into the motives behind

26
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,480
Speaker 1: some of the most famous murderers in history. First, tell

27
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,760
Speaker 1: me a little bit about Red Handed the podcast, and

28
00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,320
Speaker 1: then we'll go into the book, and then let's talk

29
00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,120
Speaker 1: about these stories. So Handed, how do we summarize your

30
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,200
Speaker 1: podcast for the folks who haven't heard it, So.

31
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,240
Speaker 4: If you haven't had Red Handed, it is a weekly

32
00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,520
Speaker 4: true crime show that now has many offshoots, and what

33
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,040
Speaker 4: we try and do is cover cases from a geopolitical, economic,

34
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,040
Speaker 4: social angle. So we've always thought, since when we started

35
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,160
Speaker 4: the show about five years ago, no one goes around

36
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,920
Speaker 4: murdering someone for no reason. There's always reasons behind this,

37
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,960
Speaker 4: so we've always tried to sort of get behind that

38
00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,800
Speaker 4: lens to look at crime in a slightly different way.

39
00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,720
Speaker 4: And when we started five years ago, there just weren't

40
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,640
Speaker 4: that many female voices in podcasting full start, let alone

41
00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,480
Speaker 4: British true crime female voices, so we were like, hey,

42
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,040
Speaker 4: we could do that, and then we did in Serrudi.

43
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 2: One of the offshoots of the podcast is this book.

44
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,320
Speaker 3: Yes, and we decided that the book was going to

45
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,799
Speaker 3: be sort of a culmination of all of the things

46
00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,919
Speaker 3: that we'd learned on Red Handed over the past four

47
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,200
Speaker 3: years that we had been doing it up until that point.

48
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,600
Speaker 3: So what the book was was looking chapter by chapter

49
00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,520
Speaker 3: at different factors that lead someone down a murdery path,

50
00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 3: whether it's genetics, whether it's their childhood and upbringing, whether

51
00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,639
Speaker 3: it's sex relationships. Ultimately, it was meant to be kind

52
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,639
Speaker 3: of a look at the things that make us human,

53
00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,800
Speaker 3: make us all human, but how those things get perverted

54
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 3: in the mind or experiences of a killer that end

55
00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,280
Speaker 3: up with them killing somebody.

56
00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:57,160
Speaker 2: Okay, we're going.

57
00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,919
Speaker 1: To talk about two cases from your book, Sirrudi wants

58
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,519
Speaker 1: to take the first one, the Ken and Barbiekullers.

59
00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,880
Speaker 3: So, yeah, gosh, this one, it is so so so

60
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,320
Speaker 3: well known. Absolutely, I think it is one of those

61
00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,080
Speaker 3: ones that just the picture alone it conjured up so

62
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,040
Speaker 3: many things that people just became obsessed with this case.

63
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,760
Speaker 5: Understandably given what happens.

64
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 3: We really tried to look at this book chapter by

65
00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,359
Speaker 3: chapter and look at different factors that influenced a person

66
00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 3: on their road to becoming a killer. And this chapter

67
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,800
Speaker 3: that links closest to the Ken and Barbie Killers Karla

68
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,640
Speaker 3: Hamalka and Paul Bernardo is of course it had to

69
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,520
Speaker 3: fit into our Relationships chapter. So I think one of

70
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,280
Speaker 3: the things with Relationships is we really did a lot

71
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,720
Speaker 3: of head scratching with this. What were we trying to say?

72
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 3: What was the point we were trying to make in

73
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,280
Speaker 3: this chapter? And it really dawned on us that probably

74
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,840
Speaker 3: one of the most profound things that can happen to

75
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,680
Speaker 3: a person, one of the most profound sort of factors

76
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,280
Speaker 3: that influence all of our lives is probably the romantic

77
00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 3: relationship that we're in. That person is the one who

78
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 3: you spend them most time with. They can probably shape

79
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 3: your life in more ways than anybody else.

80
00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:05,600
Speaker 5: So we thought, why should this be.

81
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 3: Any different when it comes to killers, And we actually

82
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 3: found some interesting things out like, for example, Gary Ridgeway,

83
00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 3: the Green River Killer, he actually during the time that

84
00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,039
Speaker 3: he was in his most happy marriage actually almost completely

85
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,919
Speaker 3: stopped killing, and when he was in his two previous

86
00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 3: very unhappy marriages, he was killing more than ever. I mean,

87
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 3: he does put it down to the fact that he

88
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:28,960
Speaker 3: had the love of a good woman and that's why

89
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 3: he had stopped.

90
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,920
Speaker 2: Doing it life circumstances precisely.

91
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 3: And we also know that a similar thing happened with BTK.

92
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,479
Speaker 3: So we were like, Okay, there are the killers who

93
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,440
Speaker 3: slow down or stop when they feel that kind of

94
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 3: romantic love. Again, a misunderstanding that people think people who

95
00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 3: are killers can't possibly feel love, when obviously they can

96
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,719
Speaker 3: to whatever extent they do. Then we decided, but maybe

97
00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,039
Speaker 3: let's look at the ones where would both of the

98
00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,800
Speaker 3: people involved in a couple who go to kill have

99
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,640
Speaker 3: done that had they not met each other. And it

100
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,200
Speaker 3: was the kind of meeting of these quote unquote murderous

101
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,320
Speaker 3: soulmates and the route they took together that we wanted

102
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,000
Speaker 3: to explore here, and so we picked Carla Hamulka and

103
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,560
Speaker 3: Paul Bernardo as our kind of key case study here.

104
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,720
Speaker 3: So anyone who knows the case knows that Carla Harmulka

105
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,479
Speaker 3: and Paul Barnardo met when Carla was very young. She

106
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,040
Speaker 3: was working at the time as a veterinary assistant. There

107
00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,200
Speaker 3: was an unfortunate incident in her childhood where she threw

108
00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 3: a hamster out of a window without a parachute. So, yeah,

109
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,159
Speaker 3: troubling behavior from the offset even in childhood with Carla

110
00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,280
Speaker 3: because obviously kids have accidents with animals, but she didn't

111
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 3: show any remorse for it, which was probably a bit

112
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,880
Speaker 3: of a worrying sign. So she meets Paul Bernardo in

113
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,919
Speaker 3: a hotel when she's there and I believe her pet conference,

114
00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,679
Speaker 3: and he just happens to be in the same hotel.

115
00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,480
Speaker 5: And for Carla, it was absolutely love at first sight.

116
00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,320
Speaker 3: She was very much a woman who was very into appearances,

117
00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,600
Speaker 3: and I think Paul Bernardo was a particularly as much

118
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,440
Speaker 3: as I hate to say, a particularly attractive man in

119
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,200
Speaker 3: a very eighties kind of way. So the two of

120
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,280
Speaker 3: them get together almost immediately, I believe the night they meet,

121
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,560
Speaker 3: they actually go up to the hotel that they're staying

122
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,359
Speaker 3: in some allegations, even in front of some of their friends.

123
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,159
Speaker 3: So the two of them sort of get on this

124
00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,920
Speaker 3: whirlwind romance. Paul even moves in with Carla's family, and

125
00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 3: everybody can kind of see that there is something a

126
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,119
Speaker 3: bit off. He's quite controlling. He likes to tell Carla

127
00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,360
Speaker 3: how to dress, how to wear her hair, what she's

128
00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,600
Speaker 3: allowed to eat. Very obsessive, very possessive. But Carla seems

129
00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,560
Speaker 3: to like it, as far as people around her could tell.

130
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,000
Speaker 3: She didn't seem to feel like it was a huge problem.

131
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,160
Speaker 3: Then things started to get a bit out of hand.

132
00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,159
Speaker 3: Paul started to lose interest in Carla sexually after a while,

133
00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 3: and so she felt like what she had to do

134
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,359
Speaker 3: was keep upping the ante every time they were romantically

135
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,560
Speaker 3: involved sexually involved, and pretty swiftly, you're going to run

136
00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,719
Speaker 3: out of options to keep up with a man who

137
00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,560
Speaker 3: had a voracious sexual appetite like Paul did, because he

138
00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 3: wasn't just your average man, because, unbeknownst to Carla, at

139
00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 3: least at the start, Paul was living a secret double

140
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 3: life as the Scarborough rapist, who was a notorious rapist

141
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,240
Speaker 3: who had attacked multiple women during the view years that

142
00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,080
Speaker 3: he had been active, and as a Scarborough rapist, Paul

143
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 3: never actually killed any of his victims. He would blitz

144
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,200
Speaker 3: attack women on the street, he would rape them, and

145
00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,880
Speaker 3: then he would say and make them say incredibly derogatory things.

146
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 3: He enjoyed absolutely the idea of, I believe, leaving a

147
00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,280
Speaker 3: victim alive afterwards, so that he would know that there

148
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,720
Speaker 3: was still somebody out there suffering because of something he

149
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,120
Speaker 3: had done. I think to kill them wouldn't have served

150
00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,160
Speaker 3: Paul's purpose because to him, he was a sadist. To him,

151
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,080
Speaker 3: the idea that they were still out there suffering was

152
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 3: more of a turn on than if they were just dead.

153
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 3: So that was absolutely his emo when he was acting

154
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,080
Speaker 3: separately from Carla.

155
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,120
Speaker 1: What happens the night that changed all of it when

156
00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:57,880
Speaker 1: they kill Carla's sister.

157
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,280
Speaker 3: So it's Christmas Eve and decides for Paul's Christmas present

158
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,520
Speaker 3: that year, she is going to gift him her little

159
00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,960
Speaker 3: fifteen year old sister, Tammy, Hermulka's virginity. So Paul's at

160
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,800
Speaker 3: the Hermulka Christmas party. Everybody goes to bed, and Paul, Carla,

161
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,600
Speaker 3: and Tammy stay up much later than everybody else. They

162
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,160
Speaker 3: slip her quite a few drinks and they lace it

163
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,520
Speaker 3: with an animal tranquilizer that Carla has brought home from

164
00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,880
Speaker 3: the vets. Once Tammy passes out, Carla uses a rag

165
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 3: that's soaked in some sort of ether to keep Tammy

166
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,439
Speaker 3: unconscious during the assault, and Carla films the entire thing

167
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,079
Speaker 3: and films Paul Bernardo her abelieved by this point fiance

168
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 3: raping her fifteen year old sister, and even more horrifically,

169
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,560
Speaker 3: Carla also gets involved with the rape and the sexual

170
00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 3: abuse of her sister, and Tammy dies because she chokes

171
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 3: on her own vomit, and then, realizing there's not much

172
00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,320
Speaker 3: they can do, they just clean her up the best

173
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,080
Speaker 3: they could. They dress her backup, take her down to

174
00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,240
Speaker 3: the basement, and then call the police, and unbelievably, the

175
00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 3: police authorities, everybody just says, it's an accidental death.

176
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,040
Speaker 1: What did they think it was? What that she drank

177
00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:08,760
Speaker 1: something and choked in the middle of the night.

178
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, Carla and Paul admit to the much lesser offense

179
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 3: of basically saying that, yes, they had been they shouldn't

180
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,400
Speaker 3: have been, but they were slipping her fifteen year old

181
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,680
Speaker 3: sister cocktails and that she had just got too drunk,

182
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,959
Speaker 3: she'd passed out, and she choked on her own vomit.

183
00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:21,560
Speaker 5: And this was.

184
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,240
Speaker 3: Despite the fact that Tummy had a massive burn on

185
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,920
Speaker 3: her face from the rag that had been soaked with ether,

186
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,600
Speaker 3: and nobody seemed to wonder what that was. They just

187
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,480
Speaker 3: said that it must have been because she was lying

188
00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,000
Speaker 3: in her own sick on the carpet.

189
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,079
Speaker 1: What about the parents. The parents didn't think something. They're

190
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 1: noticing all of this odd behavior with Paul. I guess

191
00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 1: they don't think that these two young people are.

192
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 2: Capable of that.

193
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,959
Speaker 3: I mean, if they did, they don't sort of push

194
00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,080
Speaker 3: for this. Now there's nothing really said about what the

195
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,079
Speaker 3: parents think. I think everybody accepts Carla and Paul's version

196
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,440
Speaker 3: of events, possibly because it's just the least painful version.

197
00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 3: I mean, your daughter's just died. Do you really want

198
00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,679
Speaker 3: to think that your other daughter and you'll soon to

199
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,960
Speaker 3: be son in law, were involve killing her. I'm not sure.

200
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,040
Speaker 3: But this passes by and nothing happens. And so after this,

201
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,560
Speaker 3: Paul continues his activities solo as a Scarborough rapist, and

202
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,600
Speaker 3: together he and Carla continue to kill more girls, and

203
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 3: always the way that they do it. When it's a

204
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 3: girl that they kill, it's always a victim that's known

205
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:24,000
Speaker 3: to Carla. And this is interesting because when men tend

206
00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,160
Speaker 3: to kill or commit sexual offenses, they usually go after

207
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 3: victims that they don't know, and when women tend to kill,

208
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:31,240
Speaker 3: they usually.

209
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,200
Speaker 5: Tend to kill people that they know.

210
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,720
Speaker 3: And I think that this is what kind of lends

211
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,840
Speaker 3: credence to me that Carla was the one instigating the kills,

212
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,360
Speaker 3: because she always is involved in the victim's selection and

213
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,960
Speaker 3: looking at the victims she chose. It's always a girl

214
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,640
Speaker 3: that she peripherally knows, like a friend of a friend

215
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,240
Speaker 3: or something like that. And she always lures them to

216
00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 3: a place like their house or something like that, because

217
00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,800
Speaker 3: the two of them move in together after the Tammi incident, possibly,

218
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,040
Speaker 3: as you said, maybe there was some suspicion at home.

219
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,640
Speaker 5: They lure them home again. It's very similar.

220
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,640
Speaker 3: They always dose the victims with some sort of animal

221
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,160
Speaker 3: tranquilizer that Carla provides, they rape them, and then they

222
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,440
Speaker 3: kill them. There is one victim who's only known as

223
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,840
Speaker 3: Jane Doe, probably because she survived, who was let go,

224
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 3: but the other girls are all killed.

225
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:14,800
Speaker 1: I was going to ask that, what do you think

226
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:19,120
Speaker 1: made the change from leaving the victims in humiliation to killing?

227
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:20,760
Speaker 2: Was it the addition of Carla.

228
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,400
Speaker 3: It really felt to me like when Paul acts alone,

229
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 3: he doesn't kill, He rapes, and he releases because that's

230
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:29,079
Speaker 3: his sadistic side.

231
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 5: Is what he enjoys.

232
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,040
Speaker 3: But when Carl is involved, apart from the Jane Doe case,

233
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,920
Speaker 3: every single victim dies. And we can only theorize about this.

234
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,000
Speaker 3: But the only theory that I could come up with

235
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,680
Speaker 3: that we wrote in the book was the idea that

236
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,360
Speaker 3: was there something linked to Carla's jealousy. I mean, Paul

237
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,640
Speaker 3: was raping these women, but was it linked to some

238
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,480
Speaker 3: sort of perverse jealousy on her part that these women

239
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 3: had been with her man and she wanted them gone,

240
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:53,839
Speaker 3: she wanted them killed.

241
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:54,480
Speaker 5: I don't know.

242
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,280
Speaker 1: She brought them to the relationship so she could idea

243
00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,640
Speaker 1: all of them, but that does make sense. Remind me, please,

244
00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,440
Speaker 1: of the age difference between these two when this starts.

245
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,040
Speaker 2: Is she a teenager or is she in her early twenties.

246
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 4: She's I think she's seventeen when they meet. She's very

247
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:10,400
Speaker 4: very young, and he's not much older.

248
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 3: I believe he's in like his early to mid twenties,

249
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,960
Speaker 3: so she's still like pre college. But he has a

250
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 3: job at PwC, so they're not hugely a part. But

251
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,839
Speaker 3: what you do see is that Paul is very immature

252
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,520
Speaker 3: for his age as well, and he also was very controlling,

253
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,520
Speaker 3: so it's not surprising that he was drawn to a

254
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,400
Speaker 3: girl who was I believe at least five years younger

255
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:29,800
Speaker 3: than him.

256
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,120
Speaker 2: And what was his background? Did you know much about

257
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:32,679
Speaker 2: his family?

258
00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, his background is a little bit more of a mystery.

259
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 3: But what we did find was that Paul Bernardo, he

260
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,160
Speaker 3: was so Karla Hamulka's childhood was very normal, She had

261
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,200
Speaker 3: very loving parents, She had a very normal upbringing. Nothing

262
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,840
Speaker 3: sort of untoward really happened. The only thing we can

263
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,680
Speaker 3: find was the Hamster incident. But Paul's background is very,

264
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 3: very different. So Paul he grew up in a household

265
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,520
Speaker 3: where his mum had actually had an affair, and well,

266
00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 3: his father was very abusive and his mother had an affair,

267
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,120
Speaker 3: and Paul was the result of this affair. But he

268
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,000
Speaker 3: didn't know this until he was a teenager, and one

269
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,560
Speaker 3: day it sort of comes spilling out of the family

270
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,280
Speaker 3: sort of closet as it were. He discovers who he

271
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,720
Speaker 3: really is, and then immediately his parents are sort of

272
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,160
Speaker 3: very especially his father, very hostile towards him, calling him

273
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,040
Speaker 3: a bastard, obviously looking up Paul as a reminder to

274
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,880
Speaker 3: him of his wife's infidelity. But his father was incredibly

275
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,600
Speaker 3: abusive before this as well, lots of beatings, allegations of

276
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,520
Speaker 3: sexual abuse towards Paul's sister in the household, for which

277
00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 3: she did take him to court when she was an adult.

278
00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,800
Speaker 3: But I don't believe he was convicted, so I know,

279
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,560
Speaker 3: we can't say that, We'll have to say it was

280
00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,840
Speaker 3: allegations of But the allegations that his sister made was

281
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,760
Speaker 3: that Paul's father used to rape her in front of

282
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:46,760
Speaker 3: the entire family.

283
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:47,559
Speaker 2: Wow.

284
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,520
Speaker 3: Nothing good going on in that family, unfortunately, And from

285
00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:56,320
Speaker 3: a very young teenager, Paul was very sexually deviant. His

286
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,880
Speaker 3: diaries were found by his mother and other people and

287
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,280
Speaker 3: were obviously came to light after his crimes did. But

288
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,360
Speaker 3: he was writing in there things about wanting to abduct girls,

289
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,840
Speaker 3: wanting to abduct virgins.

290
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,880
Speaker 2: So a lot of violent sexual behavior.

291
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,720
Speaker 3: Yes, he drew lots of pictures of bondage, lots of

292
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,599
Speaker 3: very very aggressive sexual behavior from being a young teenager.

293
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,320
Speaker 3: And these things obviously coupled with then the frustration and

294
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,400
Speaker 3: the rage that he felt, no doubt, the abuse that

295
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 3: he suffered at home. It culminated in him becoming the

296
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 3: Scarborough rapist at a very young age. He started doing

297
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,040
Speaker 3: that when he was in his early twenties, which is

298
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 3: again very unusual. You typically don't see a zerial offender

299
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,560
Speaker 3: starting to offend with crimes like that that early. Surely

300
00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,200
Speaker 3: they usually build up to it with things like vandalism,

301
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,840
Speaker 3: and peeping toms and voyeurism and things like that, but

302
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 3: he kind of skipped straight ahead to what he wants

303
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:47,640
Speaker 3: to do.

304
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:49,960
Speaker 5: So that's kind of Paul's background.

305
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,400
Speaker 3: We don't know, or at least I couldn't find much

306
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 3: more that was sort of solid evidence about Paul's background.

307
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 3: And he had a very dysfunctional relationship with his family,

308
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,840
Speaker 3: which is why he saw of just moves into the

309
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 3: Harmulka family quite quickly, and then we don't really hear

310
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 3: about his family too much after that.

311
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,960
Speaker 1: So you have a question at the beginning of your chapter,

312
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,160
Speaker 1: which is essentially, would either of these people have done

313
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 1: this had they not met It? Sounds like part one

314
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,480
Speaker 1: of that answer is certainly yes for Paul, wouldn't you think?

315
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,240
Speaker 3: It's really complicated And we did actually have lots of

316
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,360
Speaker 3: conversations about this, And I think that what we typically

317
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 3: see with cereal rapists is they don't often kill at

318
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,360
Speaker 3: the start because that's not what really does it for them.

319
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,120
Speaker 3: But eventually, maybe after the first time they're caught for

320
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,800
Speaker 3: a rape, they usually learn, as horrendous as it is

321
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,800
Speaker 3: to say that the way to get away with rapists

322
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,960
Speaker 3: to not leave a victim. So I think that Paul

323
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:47,680
Speaker 3: would have eventually started killing, if only as a forensic countermeasure.

324
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,400
Speaker 3: But the Carla point is the interesting one because I

325
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,000
Speaker 3: really find it hard to shake the idea that he

326
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,080
Speaker 3: only killed. All the victims only died when Carla was involved,

327
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,680
Speaker 3: and Paul continued acting as a Scarborough rapist after he

328
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 3: started killing, so it wasn't like, oh I love that kill,

329
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,680
Speaker 3: let me now try it again and again and again.

330
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,200
Speaker 3: As we see with serial killers, he only does it

331
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,000
Speaker 3: when Carla's there. But would Carla have killed if she

332
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 3: hadn't met Paul, I don't think so. I think she

333
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,160
Speaker 3: would have been She basically has a very extreme personality,

334
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 3: and I don't think she would have ever been in

335
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,040
Speaker 3: a super functional, great relationship. The people who knew her

336
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,520
Speaker 3: saw her as being quite a difficult person.

337
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,520
Speaker 5: But would she have killed, I don't think so. I

338
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 5: guess we'll never know.

339
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,360
Speaker 3: And I think also the other thing to say about

340
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,360
Speaker 3: Carla is a lot of people some people want to

341
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,480
Speaker 3: paint her as purely a victim in this as she

342
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 3: paints herself, But things like when she went in to

343
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,080
Speaker 3: report Paul, she only did it after he beat her

344
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,520
Speaker 3: so badly that her eyes were both completely black, and

345
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,080
Speaker 3: she ended up in an emergency room, and when she

346
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,440
Speaker 3: went to go and report him to the police, on

347
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,160
Speaker 3: her wrist she was wearing a Mickey Mouse watch, and

348
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 3: that Mickey mouse watch belonged to one of the victims.

349
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 5: That is trophy.

350
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,800
Speaker 3: Keeping behavior if I ever saw it, surely, and by

351
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,760
Speaker 3: this point Paul and her were apart. He wasn't then

352
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,159
Speaker 3: making her do it for his pleasure or his excitement.

353
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,080
Speaker 3: She chose to put that watch on herself. And we

354
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,640
Speaker 3: know she was involved in that killed because there's video

355
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,720
Speaker 3: evidence of it that was just found too late for

356
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 3: criminal conviction. So she knows what that watch was. It

357
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,000
Speaker 3: wasn't like it was just a present from Paul and

358
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 3: she put it on. So I don't know. I find

359
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:21,880
Speaker 3: it hard to buy and I don't really think many

360
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,119
Speaker 3: people are saying it these days.

361
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 5: But Carla enjoyed it, There's no doubt about that.

362
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,800
Speaker 2: Tell me the end of this story.

363
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,639
Speaker 1: So they've killed Tammy, she's fifteen, but no one seems

364
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,160
Speaker 1: to be suspicious. Then they go on and Carla's luring

365
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,160
Speaker 1: women in who she knows, and Paul is sexually assaulting

366
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,480
Speaker 1: them and then they kill them. How many victims are

367
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,720
Speaker 1: we talking about and then how does this begin to unravel?

368
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,560
Speaker 5: They killed three girls.

369
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,040
Speaker 3: First was obviously Tammy Harmalk in nineteen ninety then they

370
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 3: wait a few months. In the following year, in nineteen

371
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,359
Speaker 3: ninety one, they kill a fourteen year old girl called

372
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,520
Speaker 3: Leslie Mahaffey, and then they actually wait another year until

373
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,040
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety two to kill their final victim, who was

374
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,040
Speaker 3: fifteen year old Kristin French.

375
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 5: And the pressure starts.

376
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,920
Speaker 3: To build, as I think, their relationship starts to deteriorate.

377
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 3: So Paul had always been controlling an abusive towards Carla,

378
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,199
Speaker 3: but the physical abuse really started to ramp up. I

379
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,760
Speaker 3: think again, because Carla was constantly trying to up the

380
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:19,880
Speaker 3: ante and keep him interested. But I think a man

381
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 3: like Paul Bernardo, he could only be so interested for

382
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 3: so long in one woman, even if it was Carla.

383
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,200
Speaker 3: She would do things like and this is a grotesque,

384
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,240
Speaker 3: but she would dress up in Tammy's schoolgirl clothes when

385
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 3: they would have sex, and things like this. She was

386
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 3: trying everything she could to keep him interested. But I

387
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 3: think he started to slip. Their relationship became more and

388
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,440
Speaker 3: more abusive, and as I said, he eventually put her

389
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,480
Speaker 3: in hospital after one physical attack on her, at which

390
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 3: point her parents were like, enough's enough. And also the

391
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 3: police was starting to connect the dots because he had

392
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,040
Speaker 3: left so many women alive who he had raped as

393
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 3: the Scarborough rapist that one woman actually came forward and

394
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,160
Speaker 3: gave a perfect description of him, and the police artist

395
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 3: that drew the sketch it looked so much like Paul

396
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,760
Speaker 3: Bernardo that people that Paul Bernardo knew were making jokes

397
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 3: that he looked like.

398
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 5: The Scarborough rapist.

399
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:10,800
Speaker 2: Wow.

400
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,440
Speaker 3: So her parents are like, this is enough's enough. Now

401
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,280
Speaker 3: you need to tell the police that Paul Bernardo did

402
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 3: this to you. And by this point, obviously the police

403
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,360
Speaker 3: are obviously also suspecting him of being the Scarborough rapist.

404
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 5: There's a DNA breakthrough and they're on to him.

405
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,160
Speaker 3: And Carla knows that her time's up because she knows

406
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,359
Speaker 3: that she's been involved in the murders, so she gives

407
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 3: him up very much in order to save herself. And

408
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 3: the surprising thing is she told the police about the videotapes,

409
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,880
Speaker 3: even though she knows she's in the videotapes. The unbelievable

410
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 3: thing is that the police don't find the videotapes. Yeah,

411
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 3: they don't find them, so they have to go ahead.

412
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 3: They get Carla on some very minimal charges.

413
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 2: So there is no other evidence other than.

414
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,479
Speaker 3: They had DNA because when Paul had been committing the rapes,

415
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 3: they had DNA from that. It was just that when

416
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,560
Speaker 3: they took his DNA sart It's something ridiculous, like they

417
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 3: took Paul Bernardo's DNA sample and it sat there for

418
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,320
Speaker 3: years not being tested because they took so many DNA

419
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,479
Speaker 3: samples from all the men in the area that they

420
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 3: didn't actually work their way through them. So eventually DNA's

421
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,640
Speaker 3: starting to connect Paul to the crimes, and the police

422
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 3: need Carla to basically work with them. She was going

423
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 3: to be their star witness in the Paul Bernardo case.

424
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 3: So she gets a very very lenient sentence and she's

425
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,880
Speaker 3: actually free today and she's not even on the sex

426
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:28,879
Speaker 3: offenders registry.

427
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 2: What How's that possible?

428
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 3: Because she wasn't convicted of a sexually related charge, so

429
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 3: she was never put because they found the tapes of

430
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 3: her sexually assaulting her own sister after she had already

431
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 3: been convicted. And she basically apparently now even works with

432
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 3: children in schools, So that's pretty horrifying. But Paul Bernardo,

433
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 3: he was convicted and he's very much in jail.

434
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 1: Ianna, you can jump in on this too. Did you

435
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,919
Speaker 1: guys both discuss this together? You discussed this together and

436
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 1: concluded what that it was likely that Paul was going

437
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: to continue on with or without a partner, but that

438
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: Carla was a big old question mark. You certainly can

439
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 1: have psychopathy. You could certainly be a sociopath and never

440
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: be violent. What we're wondering, right is would she have

441
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 1: been capable of doing this on her own? And we

442
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 1: just aren't sure.

443
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 4: I think yes, She's a lot of things, a question

444
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 4: mark being one of them. I think what so often

445
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 4: happens in true crime is that when there are couple killers,

446
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 4: which is rare, our go to is that, oh, actually,

447
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 4: the woman must be under the spell of this horrendous

448
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 4: man and she's just either doing what she's told or

449
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 4: trying to impress him, or so desperately overwhelmed with how

450
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 4: much of a bad.

451
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 5: Boy he is that she can't help herself. I don't

452
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 5: think that's Carla at all.

453
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,239
Speaker 4: I think it's we are trained to perceive women as

454
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 4: being so submissive that they couldn't possibly have the idea

455
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 4: on their own. Do I think she would have killed

456
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 4: without paul I don't think. I'm completely convinced. It's a no.

457
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 5: I totally agree with her. I think Paula got there eventually.

458
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 4: But I think we're too quick to write women off

459
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 4: as drivers of violent crime.

460
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: I agree.

461
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: It sounds like she would have been someone who would

462
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 1: have had maybe some kind of violence in her life.

463
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: It might not have been sexual assaults and murders, but something,

464
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: So it is concerning that she's out.

465
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 2: I agree.

466
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, because I think once she got a

467
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 3: taste for it, I think she realized how much she

468
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 3: enjoyed it, and she kept going. And I think if

469
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 3: she'd have got a taste for it outside of Pool,

470
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 3: the same thing would have happened.

471
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: Okay, let's move on to a different chapter. We've covered

472
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 1: couple killers. Now let's talk about a really unique case,

473
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: the toy box killer. Except he was never actually convicted

474
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: of killing anyone, right, Hannah, tell me about that case.

475
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 4: So Stavid parkeray the toy box killer, and we, obviously

476
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 4: for Red Handed, have for the last five years been

477
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 4: eyes deep and really quite horrific stuff. But this is

478
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 4: the only one I ever dreamed about. Oh, like when

479
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 4: we first covered this on the show years ago, Like,

480
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 4: I have fully had nightmares for about a week, and

481
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 4: I think, for me, what is so horrendous about it

482
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 4: is that there's a woman whose name is Kelly Garrett.

483
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 4: She's very young, she gets married, and then after her wedding,

484
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 4: immediately after her wedding, she goes missing for three days.

485
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 5: It's kind of.

486
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 4: In the middle of nowhere, but it's in between Elephant Butte,

487
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 4: New Mexico and Truth or Consequences New Mexico.

488
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 2: That is in the middle of nowhere, Okay, And she

489
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 2: goes missing.

490
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, so she just disappears, and then she's delivered back

491
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 4: to her house and her disgruntled husband and she's been

492
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 4: gone for three days, and he's like, where have you been?

493
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 4: I have been like through the roof, worried about you.

494
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 4: Where have you been? You've gone off, You've cheated on me.

495
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 4: She was like, I don't know.

496
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 5: I can't tell you. I don't know where I've been.

497
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 4: They get divorced, move on, and then years and years

498
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 4: and years later everything unravels with the case and there's

499
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 4: a videotape recovered from David Parkrey's property, and on the videotape,

500
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 4: it's a videotape of a woman being like brutally tortured

501
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 4: inside we call them caravans, you guys call them trailers,

502
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 4: and it's like kitted out as this like torture Dundon

503
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 4: And there's a CCTV video footage of this woman just

504
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 4: being defiled. And the woman in the videotape has a

505
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 4: very distinctive tribal swan tattoo on her calf. And parts

506
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 4: of this tape are released to try and identify this woman,

507
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 4: and Kelly sees it and she says, that's me.

508
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 5: That's where I was.

509
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: She didn't remember any of this.

510
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 5: None of it. She had no idea where she had been.

511
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: Is this the right place to introduce David Parker Ray

512
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: and what we know about him exactly?

513
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 4: David Parker Ray is frustrating for multiple reasons. Firstly because

514
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: he got away with it, and secondly, we just don't

515
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 4: know that much. It's estimated that he had up to

516
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 4: sixty victims.

517
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 2: Wow.

518
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 4: He went after less visible people like sex workers or

519
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 4: people just passing through, or homeless women or.

520
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 5: Any of those.

521
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 4: The less dead was his absolute target. The only reason

522
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 4: that anyone got on to him in the first place

523
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 4: was because one woman got away and she was running

524
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 4: down the street in Elephant Butte with a chain around

525
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 4: her neck in the middle of the day, completely naked.

526
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 4: Cynthia Vigil's her name, So that's the only reason the

527
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 4: police had any attention drawn to the situation at all.

528
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,719
Speaker 4: But nothing really happens for quite some time. But what

529
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 4: he was doing was he had an array of accomplices,

530
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 4: including his daughter, his wife, his cousin Wow, and they

531
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 4: would pick up girls for him, essentially from a local bar,

532
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 4: deliver them to him in his trailer torture caravan. Did

533
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 4: he call it the toolbox or Satan's Den? Satan's Den

534
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 4: is what it said on the wall. Yeah, And he

535
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 4: would drug these women with essentially a central nervous system

536
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 4: depressant to make them forget, and some of them would

537
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 4: remember some things and some of them would remember absolutely nothing.

538
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 4: So he would drug them. He would leave them in

539
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 4: like a locked cupboard essentially, and then he would play

540
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 4: them a tape of him speaking saying, like all of

541
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 4: the horrendous things that I will not repeat, and then

542
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 4: he drugs them and then tortures them for as long

543
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 4: as he wants to and either lets them go or

544
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 4: one would presume they die.

545
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 3: And that's the thing is, like, you actually don't know

546
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 3: how many victims he killed because there's just no set

547
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: number on how many people this actually happened to.

548
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,959
Speaker 5: And he got away with it. Yeah, yeah, totally scot free.

549
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: What I don't understand is what motivation does his family

550
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: have to help, especially two women. Are they intimidated by him?

551
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 4: The daughter, I think it was just an incredibly abusive

552
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 4: relationship and she just wanted to impress her dad. His wife,

553
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 4: Cindy Hendy, I think she was involved in it to

554
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 4: a lesser extent than someone like Karla Harmlker, but she

555
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 4: absolutely knew it was going on and didn't say anything.

556
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 4: Whether that's because she was scared of him. He was

557
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 4: a very domineering character, though.

558
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 3: I think in any things you watch of him being

559
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 3: interviewed or if you watch his trial, it's very terrifying.

560
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 3: He is a terrifying man, and I think that stands

561
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 3: alone from even knowing what he did. He is a

562
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 3: very authoritative person. When you're looking at him, you would

563
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 3: be scared of this guy. And I think just looking

564
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 3: at his childhood, you kind of see where that because

565
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 3: he is a through and through sexual sadist, and I

566
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 3: think the reason we put him in the sex chapter

567
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 3: was that we really wanted to explain to people exactly

568
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: what a sexual sadist was and David Parker Ray, even

569
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 3: though we could have a pinpoint whether he'd killed anybody,

570
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 3: which he probably absolutely did, because you can't commit the

571
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 3: kind of violent offenses he was committing against individuals and

572
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 3: not accidentally at least kill some people, but that was

573
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 3: never really his end goal. And if you look back

574
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 3: at his childhood, he basically had a very violent upbringing.

575
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: His grandfather was an alcoholic who beat him almost every

576
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: single day, and he would cut out magazines from his

577
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 3: granddad's porn magazines.

578
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 5: That were given to him. He didn't find them, they

579
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 5: were given.

580
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 3: Yeah wow, as part of his like becoming a man

581
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 3: from his grandfather, and he would cut all of these

582
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 3: pornographic images out of these magazines and then paste them

583
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 3: together in kind of just grotesque collages as a child.

584
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 3: So I think, obviously not everybody who faces trauma like

585
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: he did as a child goes on to develop sexual satism.

586
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 3: But I think at some point for David parkeray, violence

587
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 3: and sex and pleasure meshed together in a way that

588
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 3: he could never then pull apart again, and he leant

589
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 3: into it as hard as he possibly could.

590
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: Let's pause here for a second, because I do want

591
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: to know a little bit about how this unravels for

592
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: him and the trial and how he.

593
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 2: Gets away with this.

594
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: But listening to these two stories that you're telling me,

595
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: and they're both terrible, and you had to write about

596
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 1: them and do research, and I just can't bring myself

597
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: to pick stories like that. My first book was about

598
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: John Reginald Christy, who was in your neck of the

599
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: woods from Timrillington place, oh yeah, who murdered all these women.

600
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: And stashed them all over.

601
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: That was pretty traumatizing for me to write, especially because

602
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: it involved, you know, the death.

603
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: Of a little girl. And I have just said I can't.

604
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: I don't think I can do those kinds of stories

605
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: as a really big project where I have to spend

606
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: a lot of time and research on them. So you're

607
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: talking about nightmares and all of that. Does any of

608
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: this put you off of true crime these particular kinds

609
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: of stories. Is it more difficult?

610
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: Well for you? Moving forward now that You've had to

611
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: do this research for the book.

612
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 4: It's an occupational hazard, and I think it's something that

613
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 4: people ask us often of like, oh, yah, how does

614
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 4: it impact your mental health and all of that sort

615
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 4: of stuff. I like, what it kind of doesn't. What

616
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 4: impacts our mental health is being stressed and not having

617
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 4: any sleep and people abusing us on the internet.

618
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 5: Like that's the hard bit.

619
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 4: Like the research and the reading is really really interesting.

620
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 4: But I think for both of us we just have

621
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: such a like insatiable fascination for how people work and

622
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 4: crucially what makes people frightened?

623
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 5: Like what are we as humans afraid of?

624
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 4: That even if we tried to step away from true crime,

625
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 4: I don't think we'd be able to.

626
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I would agree.

627
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,719
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of horrible stuff that happens

628
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: in the world all the time, and I think that,

629
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 3: like many people, Hannah and I are drawn to the

630
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 3: darker side of human behavior. Really, that was the key

631
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 3: point of the book as well. It's like looking at

632
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 3: the perversion of all of these very human things and

633
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 3: looking at the kind of extremes of human behavior. That's

634
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 3: what we're really interested in. It's not just like, oh,

635
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 3: getting off on this particular murder, but it's so gruesome.

636
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: It's like this idea of how what could possess a

637
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: person to do this? And again coming back to the

638
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 3: fact that there is no simple answer. Yes, with David

639
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 3: Parker Ray, you can say he was abused by his

640
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: granddad and all of these things, but that happens to

641
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: a lot of people who.

642
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 5: Don't go on to do what he did. Right, Why

643
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 5: did he do it?

644
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: And I think we'll never have the answer, of course not,

645
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 3: but I think for both Hannah and I, the intellectual

646
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 3: curiosity that we have towards these things trumps our fear

647
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 3: of them is probably why we keep going.

648
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: Okay, so back to David Parker Ray, Henna, tell me

649
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: what happens next.

650
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 4: What happened is eventually David Parker Ray is put on

651
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 4: trial for crimes against Cynthia Vigil, who's the lady who's

652
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 4: running down the street in the middle of the day

653
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 4: with a chain around her neck. And then also a

654
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 4: lady called Angelica Montano who has actually picked up on

655
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 4: the highway by a police officer and she told him

656
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: I've just been locked in a caravan for three days

657
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 4: and this guy tortured me and now I don't know

658
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 4: why I'm going on what I'm doing, and he's giving

659
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 4: her a lift. But because she's a sex worker, he

660
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 4: doesn't believe her. He doesn't believe her story. He knows her,

661
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 4: he's seen her around, and he's like, oh, she's just

662
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 4: making up. And then years go by and it all

663
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 4: unfolds and he's like, actually, that sounds a bit familiar.

664
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 4: So he's tried for crimes against Angelica Montana and then

665
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 4: also against Kelly Garrett, the lady with the swan tattoo.

666
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 5: But the first trial is a mistrial.

667
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 4: So all twelve counts that are brought against him just

668
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 4: poof gone.

669
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: Why what happened? They couldn't agree. I mean, there wasn't

670
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: enough evidence.

671
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 4: Or it was mainly evidence not being kept properly or

672
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 4: being submitted improperly. Okay, So the defense just managed to

673
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 4: poke quite a lot of holes and then eventually it

674
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 4: was a hung jury.

675
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 3: And that's the problem is that David Parker Ray his

676
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 3: defense was always that those women consentially came to my caravan.

677
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: So because they never find any bodies, and the three

678
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 3: women that are linked in the charges, he says, she's lying,

679
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: she's lying, she's lying. They were all there consensually. They're

680
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: just saying it now because they're embarrassed. It's all coming out,

681
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: and that's basically his defense. So it kind of becomes

682
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 3: he said, she said. Because there are no bodies, there's

683
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: no proof that anybody was killed, and because these crimes

684
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: against these women had happened so long ago, there was

685
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 3: no way to prove what had actually happened. The forensic

686
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 3: evidence was lacking, the evidence that was there were stored improperly.

687
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 3: It was just a myriad of fuck ups basically throughout

688
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 3: the entire thing.

689
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: Did they try to pressure his family into flipping on him?

690
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 3: His daughter, Yes, his daughter. They tried to pressure his daughter.

691
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 3: They it also gets Cindy Hendy, his girlfriend or wife,

692
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: to also turn on him. He did actually say that

693
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: his daughter had nothing to do with anything, and he

694
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 3: took the rap and he did go to prison for

695
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: some very minor charge.

696
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 5: It wasn't for murder.

697
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 3: Ray agreed to a plea bargain in which he was

698
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 3: sentenced in two thousand and one to two hundred and

699
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: twenty four years in prison for numerous offenses in the

700
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 3: abductions and sexual torture of three young women, So those

701
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 3: three young women, and basically his plea bargain was in

702
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 3: exchange for his daughter, Glenda Jean Jesse Ray basically not

703
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: being pursued oh wow, or not being pursued as strongly

704
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 3: for her role as an accomplice.

705
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 5: I think it's interesting here to look at somebody who.

706
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 3: Was quite clearly an extreme psychopath, but he still seemingly

707
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 3: loved his daughter because in the end, I guess you

708
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: could say that he had nothing left to lose, but

709
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,959
Speaker 3: he did only agree that plea deal if they wouldn't

710
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 3: go after her anymore, even though she had helped him

711
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 3: lure young women to their fates.

712
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 5: And yeah, he just died in prison.

713
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 3: He served like hardly any years, and he just didn't

714
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: have a heart attack in prison.

715
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 5: And never a murder conviction, just lots of other things.

716
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 3: Never a murder conviction, Never a murder conviction. It was

717
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: just for the abductions and sexual torture. But even in that,

718
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: it was only because he settled on a plea bargain.

719
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 3: Had they gone to court, I don't know what would

720
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: have actually happened because there wasn't really that much evidence

721
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 3: that they could point to.

722
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: So what did you learn from this case, Why was

723
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: he important in the book? I know you said he

724
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: went under the sex crimes chapter.

725
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: Sure.

726
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 4: I think the reason we knew that sex had to

727
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 4: go in the book is that it fundamentally drives literally everything.

728
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 4: It's what we're programmed to do evolutionarily, as we're programmed

729
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 4: to procreate. And it sounds like brutalist, but it is,

730
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 4: after you peel back the layers of everything, fundamentally pretty true.

731
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 4: So if sex is such a driving force for everyone,

732
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 4: then it has to be a driving force for killers

733
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 4: as well. And I think what we discovered when writing

734
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 4: the sex chapter was that your sexuality starts developing a

735
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 4: lot younger than many people realize, and people who go

736
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 4: through sexual abusive children absolutely, by no means does that

737
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 4: necessarily mean that everyone who has been abused goes on

738
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 4: to be a killer.

739
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 5: That's not what anyone's saying.

740
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 4: But when it comes to a paraphilia like a harmful

741
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 4: sexual desire, when those develop, it is more likely than

742
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: not that someone will have had some sort of abusive

743
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 4: sexual disruption in their very early childhood. And then, just

744
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 4: as our childhood shapes all of us because of things

745
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 4: that happened to us, not things that necessarily we made

746
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 4: happen ourselves. It does shape you in the end, and

747
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 4: sex plays a huge part in who we all are

748
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 4: in the end, and for killers it was no different.

749
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we actually discovered during the research that almost

750
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: eighty percent of serial killers who are currently incarcerated in

751
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 3: the United States are there on sexually motivated crimes, sexually

752
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 3: motivated kills.

753
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 5: It's exactly what Hannah said.

754
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 3: Sex is such a huge driver if we wanted to

755
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 3: understand the way in which it influences killers. And it

756
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 3: comes back to what I was saying about that meshing

757
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 3: together a violence and sexual pleasure in the mind of

758
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: a serial killer or in the mind of a sexual sadist,

759
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: we should say, because actually for sadists often the death

760
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 3: part isn't really the part that they're interested in. They

761
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: want the victim of live as long as possible. And

762
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 3: that was actually another thing we really wanted to kind

763
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 3: of explain exactly what a sexual sadist was, because we

764
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 3: thought there was a little bit of misunderstanding about that

765
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 3: amongst some of our listeners from the podcast. So really

766
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 3: what we discovered was described so well by this gentleman

767
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 3: named doctor Lee Mella and we actually used his triangle

768
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 3: of sexual sadism to explain it in the book, which

769
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 3: is the idea that it's not actually the act of

770
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: inflicting the pain on the victim that.

771
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 5: Gets the sexual sadist off.

772
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 3: It's the reaction that the victim has to the pain

773
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 3: that's what turns the sexual sadist on. So it's the screaming,

774
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 3: it's the fear. It's the terror, that's what it is,

775
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 3: and the action is actually just a means to impart

776
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 3: that from them. And that's why you can have people

777
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 3: who are into sadism. But if it's consensual and they're

778
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: doing it with a consenting partner, that's okay, and it's

779
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 3: someone who's into masochism. But a true sexual sadist in

780
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 3: this sense can never have consent. It's not about the consent.

781
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 3: They can never have that because they would never be

782
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 3: able to find a victim that would be able to

783
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: withstand the level of pain they need to inflict. So

784
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 3: it's not actually about the consent. It's just about that

785
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 3: they would never be able to find somebody who would be.

786
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 5: Okay with it.

787
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 3: So yeah, that was really the key reason, and we

788
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: ended on sex because it felt like the right place.

789
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: It felt like we'd reach the peak of human motivators

790
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 3: at that point.

791
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: Why do you all think that this is important breaking

792
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: these down by chapter and these bits of information that

793
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: law enforcement have been gathering for years. I mean, this

794
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: is what the FBI did in the seventies by interviewing Edmund,

795
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: Kimper and Bundy and all of these people to try

796
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: to gather this information.

797
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 2: But what do you think it is to what ends?

798
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: What can we as listeners get out of this type

799
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: of information?

800
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: Is it preventative how to stay out of situations or

801
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: spot things.

802
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: I think we've always said it rd handed. We never

803
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 3: have like a grand motivation. We're not going to sit

804
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 3: here and say we're going to save your life if

805
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 3: you read this book, or we're going to change the

806
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 3: world of the way everybody thinks about true crime and

807
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 3: victims and killers. We would never hope to have such

808
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 3: grand ambitions for ourselves. I think the reason for writing

809
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: the book was purely as a reflection of all the

810
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 3: things we'd learnt and also as accidentally turned into a

811
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 3: bit of a mythbusting, but also because it felt like

812
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: a place that we could put down all of these

813
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: things from the perspective of not being experts. So if

814
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 3: anybody reads the book, you'll discover that we're not actually

815
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 3: telling it from the perspective of and we know all

816
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 3: of these things. We're actually trying to write it in

817
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 3: the perspective of people who were going on a journey

818
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 3: of discovery, who have at the start a lot of questions,

819
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 3: who yes, have more knowledge of true crime than the

820
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 3: average person, but who are going on a journey of

821
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: discovering things throughout the book. And that's what it was

822
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 3: meant to be. It's really meant to be for people

823
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 3: who are really interested in getting a broad perspective on

824
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 3: lots of different topics within the true crime space, but

825
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 3: not in a watered downweight. We just wanted it to

826
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 3: be from a non experts perspective because we have no agenda.

827
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 3: We weren't trying to say, hey, this thing I wrote

828
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: papers on for years might not actually be true. We

829
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 3: were free to kind of debunk anything and question anything,

830
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 3: and hopefully that's what we succeeded in doing.

831
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Brandon Presser on

832
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: his tree up to a remote island and its murderous history.

833
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 6: When they arrived on the island the mutineers. Eighteen years later,

834
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 6: eighteen years of solitude, only one of the men is left.

835
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 6: Folger asks this man immediately when he realizes that the

836
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 6: mystery of the bounty has been solved, where is everyone else?

837
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 6: And he says, swept away by desperate contentions.

838
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: Who's going to rule the islands?

839
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 5: So they all murdered each other.

840
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for

841
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked

842
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: is based on our first season of Tenfold War Wicked.

843
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,479
Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of Killer

844
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 1: Edward Rulof's crimes, but there's so much more. My book

845
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly

846
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: right tenfold War Media. The producer is Alexisamirosi. Our mixer

847
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: is Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen. Curtis

848
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: Heath Is. Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork. Ilsabrink

849
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen

850
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

851
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold More Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more,

852
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,479
Speaker 1: and if you know of a historical crime that could

853
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: use some attention, especially if it happened in your family,

854
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: email us at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll

855
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: also take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked

856
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: Words