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Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't you never know stories
Speaker 1: of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hi there,
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host Joe,
Speaker 1: joined by my co host Den and Steve, and this
Speaker 1: week we're going to talk about a really really interesting
Speaker 1: World War two mystery. Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of cool stuff happened around World War Two.
Speaker 1: Time kicking it old school. Yeah. So our story begins
Speaker 1: in the year nine. Germany had overrun much of Europe
Speaker 1: and was at war with Great Britain. As we all know,
Speaker 1: or you should know anyway, really do. Pass was the
Speaker 1: Deputy fear of the National Socialist Democratic Workers Party AK
Speaker 1: the Nazis at the time, and he was the third
Speaker 1: most powerful man in Germany after Hitler and Goring. Though
Speaker 1: he was a v I P. On May Tense, nineteen
Speaker 1: forty one, has did something kind of strange. He climbed
Speaker 1: into a measure from it BF one ten fighter bomber.
Speaker 1: By the way, that I mentioned that Rudolph has knew
Speaker 1: how to fly, Yeah, but we know, yeah, he knew
Speaker 1: how to fly, and he flew to Scotland. His intention,
Speaker 1: he said, was to negotiate a piece between Britain and Germany.
Speaker 1: So what the hell was he thinking? Yeah, big question,
Speaker 1: Yeah it was. Was he deranged? As Winston Churchill and
Speaker 1: Adolf Hitler both said. And also the general consensus is
Speaker 1: that Hitler was not aware before he left on his
Speaker 1: flight that he was going to leave and go to England,
Speaker 1: which is a little strange. Yeah, yeah, and that's a
Speaker 1: general consensus. But really is that true? Did Hitler really
Speaker 1: not know that his his third in command was going
Speaker 1: on in a little trip. We're going out a little peace,
Speaker 1: mister little? Yeah. Can I briefly ask, maybe you'll talk
Speaker 1: about it later. Why Scotland? Uh? Well, there was a
Speaker 1: guy living in Scotland, that's the Duke of Hamilton's, Yeah,
Speaker 1: who he felt might be sympathetic to his cause. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we'll talk about that in a minute, Yeah we will.
Speaker 1: And also Rudolph ass left us with one last little mystery,
Speaker 1: which is how did he die? The official story is
Speaker 1: he committed suicide. But but other people think that he
Speaker 1: was murdered. Yeah, I've read up on this and I
Speaker 1: can see how they would think that. Oh yeah, a
Speaker 1: lot a lot of people think he was murdered. That well,
Speaker 1: let me tell you a little background on Rudolph. He
Speaker 1: joined the Nazi Party in nineteen twenty after hearing Adolph
Speaker 1: Hitler speak at an event in Munich. He was member
Speaker 1: number sixties, so he really got in on the ground
Speaker 1: floor of the whole thing. And that was at the
Speaker 1: time when Hitler was considered more charismatic and less crazy talk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he was much more of a fair motivational speaking
Speaker 1: I mean, I imagine that's how we got a lot
Speaker 1: of people in the beginning. Yeah. Well, and and this
Speaker 1: is post World War two, and with one post World one, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: my bad, post World War One, and a lot of Germans,
Speaker 1: of course, you know, they were under the Versite Treaty.
Speaker 1: The Gernamans were quite harsh and a lot of Germans
Speaker 1: were very very angry about the outcome of the war.
Speaker 1: And and so Hitler tapped into that pretty nicely. No,
Speaker 1: he definitely did. It. Turns out it's not so hard
Speaker 1: for crazy people to rally around the guys of fixing everything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, Hitler fixed things real good. Well, like
Speaker 1: I said the guy. Yeah, uh, you guys thought, I'm
Speaker 1: sure heard of the famous beer hall push in thee
Speaker 1: when Hitler and Hess and a bunch of other Nazis
Speaker 1: went into a German beer hall where they were holding
Speaker 1: a Bugian town meeting basically tried to start a revolution.
Speaker 1: I have read about this briefly, and it never made
Speaker 1: sense to me, like it never seemed how I never
Speaker 1: understood why they thought it was a good idea. I
Speaker 1: mean either, I never never did either. But it turns out, yeah,
Speaker 1: it didn't work out so well for him. They wanted up.
Speaker 1: Hitler and Hess both went to jail for a while,
Speaker 1: and at that time when that Hitler wrote his magnum
Speaker 1: opus Mind comp in jail and has helped him edit it,
Speaker 1: so he was part of that too. And at this
Speaker 1: this is really when they started becoming really good friends
Speaker 1: and very close, very close relationship between these two. And
Speaker 1: they always had a very close relationship, I mean through
Speaker 1: the years, not just at this point forward, is what
Speaker 1: I'm getting. Yeah, I think that their time together in
Speaker 1: jail really kind of cemented the relationship, though, Has, as
Speaker 1: you all know, rose to power along with Hitler. And
Speaker 1: Has this is a guy who introduced the concept of
Speaker 1: Leban's round. Hitler he'd got an idea from one of
Speaker 1: his university professors at the University of Munich uh, and
Speaker 1: Leban's round in German means quote, let's go conquer most
Speaker 1: of eastern Europe so we can live correct translation rate
Speaker 1: exactly what actually does it means living room and not
Speaker 1: not the living room in your house? Yeah? Yeah, they
Speaker 1: felt that I like the regional translation. Yeah yeah, well
Speaker 1: I as we all know, Hitler really took to the idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah he did. Uh. In June nineteen four, Hitler was
Speaker 1: heard to say that what he wanted most was peace
Speaker 1: with Britain. And they've been at war with Britain for
Speaker 1: about a year and a half at this point, about correct, Yeah,
Speaker 1: on that, okay, And he said that he felt it
Speaker 1: really was no need for the two countries to be
Speaker 1: at war. And besides, I'm sure he had better use
Speaker 1: for all those military assets that he was throwing at
Speaker 1: the Brits because um. In June one, of course, Operation
Speaker 1: Barbar also got underway. That was the invasion of the
Speaker 1: Soviet Union. But prior to that, they've been sending plane
Speaker 1: after plane after plane just bombing the holy crap out
Speaker 1: of Britain. Yeah, which is a lot of that's a
Speaker 1: lot of material, Yeah, which we could be more usefully
Speaker 1: spent on bombing Russians instead of Brits. You know. In
Speaker 1: June nineteen when Hitler said that they wanted peace, it
Speaker 1: looks like has started planning his piece initiative about that time.
Speaker 1: Rudolph Hess first learned to fly in the German military
Speaker 1: near the end of World War one, uh and after
Speaker 1: the war in nine he got a price the pilot's
Speaker 1: license on several different planes, not all the same time.
Speaker 1: I don't think I don't think he was out wealthy,
Speaker 1: but he got pretty good at flying single engine planes.
Speaker 1: In October nineteen forty, who want to the Messer Schmidt
Speaker 1: Aircraft works in Augsburg, Bavaria, I hope, I pronounced Agsburg right,
Speaker 1: and he told them that he wanted to start training
Speaker 1: on the Messer Schmidt BF one ten, which is a
Speaker 1: twin engineer plane with a lot better rains and your
Speaker 1: typical single engine. And he received instruction on how to
Speaker 1: fly from a Measter Schmith test pilot, and the company
Speaker 1: held a plane for his own personal use, which was
Speaker 1: nice of them. Well, I mean, yeah, but one of
Speaker 1: Hitler's best friends. You're not going to be like guy
Speaker 1: number three. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. They probably didn't make him
Speaker 1: pay for it either. No, I'm sure they didn't. They
Speaker 1: probably didn't even make him pay for the gas or
Speaker 1: all the upgrades. Yeah, they they did upgraded a bit.
Speaker 1: They installed a radio compass, long range drop tanks, which
Speaker 1: are fuel tanks, reportedly modified the oxygen delivery system, though
Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what was done there. That's all
Speaker 1: I heard. I would imagine that they were extending the
Speaker 1: range of the plane regarding fuel, they might want to
Speaker 1: add some oxygen to They would probably have upgraded the
Speaker 1: oxygen system to match it. Probably, Yeah, I would guess
Speaker 1: that as well. It seems like oxygen would be an
Speaker 1: important component to right directly following fuel. Yes, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Oxygen might be even more important than fuel on a
Speaker 1: fuel that if you can't breathe them blackout, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Alternately,
Speaker 1: if you run out of fuel, you might be able
Speaker 1: to pilot the plane to a safer landing even if
Speaker 1: the fuel runs out as long as the oxygen. So
Speaker 1: we're both right. Yeah, okay, yeah, I'm going to call
Speaker 1: us a win win. So what are we at here?
Speaker 1: Made tense that theay of reckoning at PM has climbed
Speaker 1: into his Meastrishman took off in the airport at Augsburg
Speaker 1: and flew northwest, eventually turned north, hit the coast of
Speaker 1: the North Sea, right around bremer Haven, Germany, turned east
Speaker 1: trip to stay out of the rage of British radar,
Speaker 1: and then turned north northwest nine PM, re turned west
Speaker 1: southwest and headed towards the northern part of England. So
Speaker 1: hang on here, Joe, just so people get an idea.
Speaker 1: He took off, he headed and he basically did a
Speaker 1: kind of a zigzag north is what he was doing
Speaker 1: until he got to Scotland, and then he was hanging
Speaker 1: basically a Greek turn, correct, not a one eight really
Speaker 1: was that was exactly. But he went west northwest and
Speaker 1: then basically made a ninety degree turn and headed not
Speaker 1: excuse me, he had a north northwest and then made
Speaker 1: a ninety degree turn and headed west southwest. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I think part of it is he was killing a
Speaker 1: little bit of time because he wanted it to be
Speaker 1: dark when he when he actually hit England, and so
Speaker 1: it was dark. He actually did sort of kill some
Speaker 1: time out at sea too, waiting for it to get dark,
Speaker 1: and then flew over the northern part of England um
Speaker 1: at about fifty ft of altitude. So he was picked
Speaker 1: up on the radar and some r a F fighters
Speaker 1: were scrambled to intercept him, but they couldn't find him. Well,
Speaker 1: the thing that I didn't understand for a long time
Speaker 1: when I was doing the reading is if he why
Speaker 1: was he killing so much in time? Why didn't he
Speaker 1: just leave later in the day. That would have been
Speaker 1: a good idea. Well, it turns out he was following
Speaker 1: a U is it the blitz Crieg. Yeah, he was
Speaker 1: following a group of planes and tagging along on their
Speaker 1: navigation to get himself to Britain. So he was following
Speaker 1: a suite of bombers that were heading for London that day.
Speaker 1: That's the reason he left when he did, instead of saying, what,
Speaker 1: I'll leave like an hour and a half later and
Speaker 1: then I don't have to dink around in the middle
Speaker 1: of the ocean flying in circles. I mean, that was
Speaker 1: probably a good idea, just for radars as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: although you don't want to be tagging tag along with
Speaker 1: those guys when they actually reached Britain, because it's going
Speaker 1: to be after you. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot
Speaker 1: of flak in the air at that point, that too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, you understand why he didn't like to fly
Speaker 1: just directly to London and then north. He didn't leave them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a little letter. Ten pm he was picked up on radar,
Speaker 1: asist said, and he flew north into Scotland. He was
Speaker 1: mostly navigating by landmarks. It should be kind of tricky
Speaker 1: in the dark. Yeah. He was having trouble finding his destination,
Speaker 1: which was a place called Dune Gable House and I
Speaker 1: could be pronouncing that incorrectly. I looked it up on
Speaker 1: the internet and I got three different pronouncing nation pronunciations
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, yeah, so well. And the reason he
Speaker 1: was having such hard time in the dark though, was
Speaker 1: because it's wartime. Everybody was keeping their lights off at
Speaker 1: now or shuttering their windows, so there was nothing to
Speaker 1: navigate by. I know, so well, there's landmarks still, but
Speaker 1: I mean fight on the ground and say oh this
Speaker 1: should be should be this town? Yeah, I know that
Speaker 1: that would be it was a tricky thing. And uh,
Speaker 1: but anyway, the dun Gable House is the home of
Speaker 1: the Duke of Hamilton's. It's not that anymore now. It's
Speaker 1: like an immigrant detention center somehow, so somehow that the
Speaker 1: Duke of Hamilton's lives somewhere else now. The Duke was
Speaker 1: a friend who has his friend Albert hoss Hoofer, who
Speaker 1: had a lot of English contacts. In fact, there were
Speaker 1: lots of There was lots of contacts between the British
Speaker 1: aristocracy and a lot of the German aristocracy because they
Speaker 1: all knew each other, there aristocracy, and they're all like that,
Speaker 1: they're all that kind of family. Has thought that Hamiltonson
Speaker 1: was would be sympathetic to his peace mission. And again
Speaker 1: there's there's a little bit of back and forth about
Speaker 1: exactly why he believed that. I'll talk about that in
Speaker 1: more detail later. Some people think that perhaps m I
Speaker 1: six tricked to him into thinking that there was a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of people in Britain that would be really
Speaker 1: receptive to his peace proposal. So that's one theory that's
Speaker 1: out there well. And then there's also the what is
Speaker 1: it the Anglo Germanic society was that what wash I
Speaker 1: think it was the Anglo German Friendship Society something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was. That was I think also one of the
Speaker 1: big theories of why he thought he would be sympathetic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and also the Duke had access to King George's sixth
Speaker 1: and that was that would be a big bonus. And
Speaker 1: also best of all, done Gable House had an airstrip
Speaker 1: because highly important for airplane Yeah and yeah, the Duke
Speaker 1: of Hamilton, it turns out, was also an airplane enthusiast
Speaker 1: like Hess, so they had something in common there. I
Speaker 1: should also note it was rumor that a number of
Speaker 1: members of the royal family were pro German, or at
Speaker 1: least not in favor of war with Germany, which really
Speaker 1: wouldn't be too outlandish. When do you think that, consider
Speaker 1: that they're actually part German themselves. You know. The House
Speaker 1: of Windsor Windsor actually did not begin until when they
Speaker 1: changed their name from what was it the House of Saxe,
Speaker 1: Coburn and Gotha, which doesn't exactly sound British. And yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so that the name change was due to anti German
Speaker 1: sentiment World War One, Oh yeah, I'm sure. And so
Speaker 1: down now that the Windsor's Uh. The way back to
Speaker 1: Rudolph Hesse and his plane, he was having trouble finding
Speaker 1: the Duke's house, so he turned flew west to the
Speaker 1: first of Clyde, where he oriented himself, and then he
Speaker 1: flew back inland. But by the time he was back
Speaker 1: in the vicinity of doom Gable, he was low on
Speaker 1: fuel and he had picked up a little company. Yeah
Speaker 1: I know, arif interceptor finally began pursuit of him. And
Speaker 1: this is I forget the name of the plane. It's
Speaker 1: an interesting looking plane. Instead of having a four guns
Speaker 1: and the wings like most fighters do you think of having,
Speaker 1: you know, this one didn't have those, but it had
Speaker 1: behind the pilot there was a turret with a couple
Speaker 1: of gun barrels sticking out of it. Really, yeah, I
Speaker 1: didn't look just playing up. Yeah, it's a strange little
Speaker 1: strange look a little plane. It would almost have been
Speaker 1: if if I if you were to imagine it being
Speaker 1: a two seater. The second seat was actually the gun Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was actually the gunner. Yeah, sitting there and raised
Speaker 1: tail is a raised turret over the over the pilot's seat.
Speaker 1: So you know, I mean handy because you can shoot
Speaker 1: to your side. I guess I just gotta be careful
Speaker 1: not to shoot your wings off or anything. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: probably the first thing to cover in training day one.
Speaker 1: Don't shoot the wing. Yeah, that's right. You'll get a
Speaker 1: black market. Your record that was that was a ten
Speaker 1: thirty at night. You said, yeah, I was ten thirty
Speaker 1: at night. Has decided it was time to bail. So
Speaker 1: he climbed a six thousand feet and jumped out. Luckily,
Speaker 1: he had a parachute on and he landed about ten
Speaker 1: miles northwest of his destination, near the village of Eagles
Speaker 1: Amma or Eaglesham, which is actually pretty close when you
Speaker 1: could say, it was dark and he didn't have much
Speaker 1: in the way of navigational just like a compass, super
Speaker 1: lucky compass. Yeah, and that was so uh. He was
Speaker 1: seen parachuting in by a local farmer named David McClean.
Speaker 1: McClean found him on the ground wrestling with his parachute
Speaker 1: and he had a very badly wrenched ankle. McClean was
Speaker 1: armed with a pitchfork and essentially took him took a prisoner.
Speaker 1: And how did he see him coming down? I'm not
Speaker 1: really sure. Maybe there was a moon that night, there
Speaker 1: must have been if he was navigating at that time
Speaker 1: of night by landmark, there must have been at least
Speaker 1: a half moon. There must have been good some good
Speaker 1: moon light. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking I would expect. Also,
Speaker 1: if you heard a plane above, like you know, two
Speaker 1: planes kind of in hot pursuit above you, you might
Speaker 1: look up and then you might see something kind of
Speaker 1: pop out of one and think huh. And I don't
Speaker 1: know if he was on the ground by the time
Speaker 1: his plane crash. His plane crash very shortly after he bailed. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but there even in the distance, it must have been
Speaker 1: a kind of a big kaboo. Yeah, that that plane.
Speaker 1: Have you seen the photos of his plane? It was
Speaker 1: pretty He did not survive that now not not so well. Uh,
Speaker 1: you fought a side about this farm where he um.
Speaker 1: He actually went to the where the plane wreckage side was.
Speaker 1: After after the homeguard came and got hass took him
Speaker 1: off his hands, he went over and he found a
Speaker 1: plane crash side and he had some parts in the bushes.
Speaker 1: And then after after they had hauled all the rest
Speaker 1: of the wreckage away, he went back and got those
Speaker 1: and so he had those you had those around for
Speaker 1: a year or yeah, and I think he eventually trophies. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he gave one or one or two away and I
Speaker 1: think some of the other one A couple of the
Speaker 1: other ones he sold. Yeah, part of Rudolph has his plane,
Speaker 1: you know, very collectible. Yeah. So they hobbled back to
Speaker 1: his cottage, McLean's cottage, and they had a cup of
Speaker 1: tea and McClane contacted the Home Guard, who showed up
Speaker 1: shortly thereafter with some police. Has was operating under a
Speaker 1: different name at this point. Yeah, he said his name
Speaker 1: was Captain Alfred Horne. Then he needed to speak with
Speaker 1: the Duke of Hamilton's And in another account I read,
Speaker 1: he said he told the Home Guard guys, tell the
Speaker 1: Duke of Hamilton's that I've arrived. He and but he
Speaker 1: was German, right, so he would have had a relatively
Speaker 1: thick accent. Uh yeah, I mean he spoke English fluently.
Speaker 1: He was actually raised in the English section of Alexandria, Egypt,
Speaker 1: so he did speak English. So do you but do
Speaker 1: you know about accent? I just like if you have
Speaker 1: a German accent accent in nine in England, people are
Speaker 1: going to be like, Okay, Mr Horn, I'll get right
Speaker 1: on that. I absolutely positive he had a fairly distinct accent.
Speaker 1: He is speed, His English was good to speak. He
Speaker 1: evidently wasn't that good at interpreting English though, that was
Speaker 1: a difficulty for him for quite a while, which is weird.
Speaker 1: You know, whenever I've tried to tackle a foreign language,
Speaker 1: I always find understanding it it's easier for me than speaking.
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting that some friends who are fluent in
Speaker 1: like a stupid amount of languages, and um, a couple
Speaker 1: of them have been fluent since birth in both languages,
Speaker 1: and for them it is hard to translate because they
Speaker 1: just think in both languages. So it's like a concept
Speaker 1: and you whatever in which you're speaking in They just
Speaker 1: know the words that they're trying to think, but they
Speaker 1: have to actually really think about what the word for
Speaker 1: that in the other languages. Yeah, they have to actually
Speaker 1: take a step back and say, Okay, but if I
Speaker 1: were having this conversation in this other language, that lamp
Speaker 1: would be called that other word, you know. So I
Speaker 1: I wonder if there was something like that going on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but anyway, that's so there were there
Speaker 1: were some communication difficulties through this whole thing back to
Speaker 1: the Home Guard. They took them away to their little
Speaker 1: h Q, and according to one source that I found,
Speaker 1: there was actually a reception committee of military intelligence officers
Speaker 1: waiting at the air strip of Hamilton's estate. I only
Speaker 1: heard that in one place, so I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: that's true or not. So apparently it has captured by
Speaker 1: the Home Guard was a little bit of a hitch
Speaker 1: in their plans. It might be if they had indeed
Speaker 1: lured him under false pretenses to Britain. Maybe they were
Speaker 1: planning on just secretly spiriting him away and never telling
Speaker 1: the public anything. But because he got captured by the
Speaker 1: Home Guard, Yeah, and maybe that they were actually planning
Speaker 1: on trying to work something out, and that wouldn't necessarily
Speaker 1: be in popular opinion, So you would kind of want
Speaker 1: to take it slow. Well, I was, I was, actually
Speaker 1: Joe said that. I was like, Well, maybe they're trying
Speaker 1: to work something out of him with fists and do
Speaker 1: it completely under the radar and nobody would ever know
Speaker 1: where they go. There's I mean, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: reasons that you would not want to publicize that that
Speaker 1: guy was in your country. Yeah, yeah, probably Hitler would
Speaker 1: have kept it quiet too. It was embarrassing for him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: uh so, yeah, the whole thing could have been kept
Speaker 1: a secret, except books. He didn't make his target, so yeah,
Speaker 1: he got captured anyway. Supposedly it was this reception committee
Speaker 1: that caught up with Hess in Home Guard custody and
Speaker 1: they persuaded the Home Guard people to finally let him go,
Speaker 1: and so they took him to mary Hill Barracks near Glasgow, Scotland,
Speaker 1: and then the Duke of Hamilton did arrived the next
Speaker 1: day to see has and that's when it has revealed
Speaker 1: his true identity and said I think the words were quote,
Speaker 1: I'm here to save the world, something melodramatic like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he wanted to he wanted to work out a
Speaker 1: peace deal. This is one thing I love about Germans days.
Speaker 1: They're so direct. It's I'm not gonna work up to us.
Speaker 1: I'm going to save everybody. Let me do that now.
Speaker 1: I'm not not really going to save the world, just
Speaker 1: Germany in England. Well, that's all the world that he
Speaker 1: cares about pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. One of the concessions
Speaker 1: that he apparently uh put forward was that Germany would
Speaker 1: withdraw from Western Europe except for parts of France like Alsassin,
Speaker 1: Lorraine they were going to keep. Uh, they would allow
Speaker 1: Britain to keep its overseas possessions and in return they
Speaker 1: wanted a free hand in Eastern Europe and Russia. They
Speaker 1: would also try to mediate a settlement between Britain and Italy. Um.
Speaker 1: And also they said that they would buy the full
Speaker 1: output of Allied war industries production while they were converting
Speaker 1: back to peacetime uses to help avoid any economic downturn.
Speaker 1: So I have a lot of problems with this, but
Speaker 1: I'm gonna wait until we get into the very section
Speaker 1: because there's all kinds of holes in this for me. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: apparently Has had a full on, full blown peace proposal
Speaker 1: which was eventually I think presented to Churchill. He met
Speaker 1: with the Duke of Hamilton. Churchill did that is and
Speaker 1: they met with the war cabinet, and apparently there was
Speaker 1: no interest in a peace deal. Uh. They didn't tell
Speaker 1: his Has this for a while. Well, I mean it's
Speaker 1: not surprising to me that Britain didn't think there was
Speaker 1: there was any reason for a peace deal, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: the whole reason that everybody was going to war was
Speaker 1: like because the Nazis are bad and we don't like
Speaker 1: what they're doing. Right, It wasn't oh, they're coming to
Speaker 1: get us, so we have to defend ourselves. It was
Speaker 1: more of a proactive approach. So it makes sense to
Speaker 1: me that they wouldn't necessarily I mean that would if
Speaker 1: they did have a peace deal, it would just basically
Speaker 1: give tacit consent to what was going on in the
Speaker 1: rest of the world the Nazis controlled exactly because I
Speaker 1: mean that's why Britain declared wars, because they had had
Speaker 1: a treaty with Poland, you know that one defense the
Speaker 1: other well Poland was invaded. Well you know, they had
Speaker 1: to kind of they had to actually do something about it,
Speaker 1: and so it's like that whole sense of honor. But
Speaker 1: at this time the war was not really going that
Speaker 1: great for Britain, right, you know, speaking of Poland. When
Speaker 1: I was doing the research, one of the things that
Speaker 1: I always am really interested in, and this is just
Speaker 1: a weird thing about me, is posters from different eras,
Speaker 1: and one of the ones that was in Britain at
Speaker 1: the time was the Polish flag. And you know, it's
Speaker 1: in the typical nineteen forties illustration style. It's all torn
Speaker 1: up and it just says Poland first to fight. Really
Speaker 1: really was really well done, but it was just so
Speaker 1: iconic for the area. They're so cool some of them.
Speaker 1: Some of them are a little offensive though. There are
Speaker 1: some serious stereotypes going on, and some of those old posters,
Speaker 1: I will agree, they are very very brutal. Yeah. You
Speaker 1: know who actually produced some interesting World War two propaganda cartoons,
Speaker 1: Dr Seuss. Yeah, some of them are seriously racist. Yeah, almost,
Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, especially especially like the
Speaker 1: one with Uncle Sam's in an alley. He's back and
Speaker 1: he's got all these these these grass they're coming after him,
Speaker 1: and they have little Japanese faces on them, and it
Speaker 1: is very very stereotypical. But let's get away from that.
Speaker 1: I have another question, because this is something I've also
Speaker 1: never understood about Germany, is why didn't they quit when
Speaker 1: they were ahead? I've never understood and this is maybe
Speaker 1: just well, yeah, why did they Why did they decide
Speaker 1: to do that? Why did they continue to push on
Speaker 1: into North Africa? I mean they had they had essentially
Speaker 1: rolled through a huge part of Western Europe, and if
Speaker 1: they had just stopped and sat, that's how countries have
Speaker 1: been formed for thousands of years is we took it
Speaker 1: over and we just stayed and eventually everybody went, okay,
Speaker 1: well that's yours. We don't like it, but that's yours.
Speaker 1: Why did why did the Why didn't the Romans stop
Speaker 1: when they were ahead? Well I don't understand that either.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm asking is I've never understood why they
Speaker 1: didn't say, here's the question we took Europe. Just a
Speaker 1: question for a while. When you go like gamble, do
Speaker 1: you stop when you're it? Yeah? Do you actually? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: I have a system. Okay, okay, cheating doesn't count. No,
Speaker 1: I have X amount of money. I'm going to gamble,
Speaker 1: and that money's in one pocket, and if I win,
Speaker 1: I put it in another pocket. And when the original
Speaker 1: bank is empty, if there's money left over, I walk out.
Speaker 1: That's not stopping. But but if I win. If I
Speaker 1: let's say I'm on a slot machine and I hit
Speaker 1: and I win a hunter bucks on a nickel slot,
Speaker 1: I'll say, all right, well now my bank, I can't
Speaker 1: go below let's say eight bucks. So I'm I'm continually
Speaker 1: setting a bar that I will not drop below. So
Speaker 1: I'm always add so I do stop when I'm ahead.
Speaker 1: I think the thought process is that you like, okay, so,
Speaker 1: yeah they were ahead because they had like a bunch
Speaker 1: in their winning pocket, right, but they still had money
Speaker 1: in their other pockets, so it still felt like I'm
Speaker 1: winning even though you know, okay, well, if I gamble
Speaker 1: this like one nickel, strategically, you know what. Gambling is
Speaker 1: not the right pa betaphor. It is such a big
Speaker 1: area that strategically the resources don't make sense to me.
Speaker 1: It's something that I've never understood. I think. I think
Speaker 1: people have a hard time stopping on their heads, and
Speaker 1: that's probably what I mean. Hitler had gone a little.
Speaker 1: They also think you get delusional. It could have been that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he definitely did bite off more than you can chew.
Speaker 1: You should have looked at the lessons of history. I mean,
Speaker 1: Napoleon didn't fare that well in Russia either, did he.
Speaker 1: Nobody fares well in Russia. Russian has barely fared well.
Speaker 1: The joke is like, come to Russia and our country
Speaker 1: will fight you. The actual terrain just kills people. The
Speaker 1: people of Russia don't have to do anything they have.
Speaker 1: There is a lot of strategic depth there too, to
Speaker 1: surrender a lot of territory, and oh yeah, you can
Speaker 1: continue to just give and give and give in the ground,
Speaker 1: we'll just eat up the troops that are invading. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I took us way off track that okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: we are way off track, by the way. So far,
Speaker 1: I haven't mentioned what happened back in Germany when Hitler
Speaker 1: found out about all this. This was a day after
Speaker 1: this is eleven. Hass had given his adjutant, a guy
Speaker 1: named Carl Heinz Pinch, a letter to deliver to Hitler
Speaker 1: the day after has left and also to basically tell
Speaker 1: him what he had done. So Pinch delivered his report.
Speaker 1: Apparently Hitler blew his stack. He delivered it directly to Hitler.
Speaker 1: Yeah he did, ok, Yeah, and he was rather upset.
Speaker 1: And it was unfortunate for for Pinch because you know,
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, shoot the messenger and all
Speaker 1: that stuff. He was arrested and jailed, and also a
Speaker 1: lot of other people around Hess were also arrested. Uh.
Speaker 1: Pinch was later released, but then he was sent to
Speaker 1: the Eastern Front to fight the Russians, and so he
Speaker 1: really wasn't released. Yeah, basically a big step down for him.
Speaker 1: Is the allegation that Pinch knew what the letter contained, Like,
Speaker 1: did he know that Hass had left? Yeah? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that it wasn't just like, Okay, I'm going to
Speaker 1: bed give this letter to Hitler tomorrow. Well I don't
Speaker 1: think it was just him giving the letter to Hitler.
Speaker 1: I think he also gave him an oral report basically
Speaker 1: said you know, Hass has gone to I can understand
Speaker 1: why you would you would arrest him. Then, I mean
Speaker 1: it's more than yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally is true.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to be clear on that. It wasn't
Speaker 1: just like literally he was like, I don't know, Hess
Speaker 1: just gave me this letter to give to you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know what's in it. Yeah yeah, but apparently
Speaker 1: and decides which Even if he hadn't said anything like that,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that would have been suspicions. Yeah. Yeah. Pinch
Speaker 1: was then captured by the Russia. Oh yeah, I was
Speaker 1: captured by the Russian, tortured, tortured, held in captivity for
Speaker 1: like ten years or something like some crazy eleven page
Speaker 1: like a story or something. It was a page I
Speaker 1: don't know, confession or just telling all he knew or
Speaker 1: whatever that was eventually found in the historical archives many
Speaker 1: million years later. So Hitler said at the at the
Speaker 1: time that he felt like it was a huge betrayal
Speaker 1: because he was such a good friend. He also said,
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, that he thought that Hess had
Speaker 1: just gone over the edge, and again Winston Churchill agreed
Speaker 1: with him on that one. They didn't agree on a
Speaker 1: whole lot. Yeah, and also Hitler apparently gave orders that
Speaker 1: Hess was to be shot on site if he returned
Speaker 1: to Germany. Well back to Hesson in Scotland. He was
Speaker 1: shuffled around to various places, eventually wind up spending thirteen
Speaker 1: months in a place called camp Z. He was in
Speaker 1: the Tower of London for a while. Yeah. Before that, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was. I just didn't want to give a laundry
Speaker 1: list of all the places. When I noticed that, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, he's another one of the because there
Speaker 1: was only two Germans that were in the tower. Ever
Speaker 1: it was one of them. Yeah, lucky him. Camps He
Speaker 1: was a mansion in the town of Mitchett outside of London.
Speaker 1: Um kind of south west is love London. And by
Speaker 1: the way, I'm sure I'll get at least one email
Speaker 1: telling me that it's actually pronounced mitch m I did
Speaker 1: look it up on the on the Internet and supposedly
Speaker 1: it is pronounced mitchett. So I hope that's right. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, let me know. So at this point
Speaker 1: has really saw himself as a diplomatic emissary, and uh,
Speaker 1: he demanded to be sent back to Germany while the
Speaker 1: British didn't. Asylum. That's interesting. What's not asylum? What is
Speaker 1: it called, like diplomatic community or something. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's like that. The problem was has swore the whole
Speaker 1: time that Hitler never had any clue that he was
Speaker 1: going to leave and go to Britain. And so because
Speaker 1: of that, because he essentially hadn't really been sent by
Speaker 1: the German government as an official emissary, Churchill in the
Speaker 1: Gang felt like, well, we can keep him. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I think I understand that empirically, but I understand
Speaker 1: Hess's argument too. Right, He's like third in command of
Speaker 1: the of the German government, so he sent himself on
Speaker 1: a mission and they're saying no, no, no, the German
Speaker 1: government didn't sent you. But I well, the problem is
Speaker 1: is that his position was a puppet position, had absolutely
Speaker 1: no power he had been progressively pushed farther and farther
Speaker 1: out of the power structure of the regime. But you
Speaker 1: we all know that guy, right, the guy who the
Speaker 1: Dwight shrut of of the group, right, that's you know,
Speaker 1: assistant to the manager. And he keeps saying, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: the assistant manager, and it's like no, no, no, you're
Speaker 1: the assistant to the manager. You keep getting pushed out
Speaker 1: and told no, but you think that you are so
Speaker 1: much more. So I can understand his argument. It may
Speaker 1: mean that he went loopy, but or it might be
Speaker 1: overstepped his bounds. Yeah, yeah, it might be he thought
Speaker 1: this was a way to really, you know, like he
Speaker 1: thought Hitler wanted this. Yeah, he did. He thought he
Speaker 1: was doing a good favor for his good buddy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He was extremely loyal to Hitler. I mean, and even
Speaker 1: though Hitler said he thought this was a betrayal, I
Speaker 1: don't think Hess saw it that way at all. He
Speaker 1: was trying to do him a favor. It's possible, and
Speaker 1: it's alleged that maybe Hitler didn't think that at first.
Speaker 1: But I know, we're going to get into all of
Speaker 1: this stuff, so well, yeah, there are there are people
Speaker 1: who say otherwise. Yeah, I was just going to throw
Speaker 1: out there that it's also possible that, you know, Hitler
Speaker 1: said off handedly, yeah, I totally want peace with Britain
Speaker 1: and didn't remember it at all, And then you know,
Speaker 1: has starts planning and plotting and thinking, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: this is going to be the best surprise for Hitler.
Speaker 1: When I he's he's gonna love it, and Hitler's like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean I said that. I never said that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh, I was joking. Due remember that time
Speaker 1: you bedazzled an entire fighter plane for me and I
Speaker 1: said I didn't really want that same situation. Yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: So anyway, having a hard time, I identify with hats
Speaker 1: I'm sorry because you like the bedazzled things. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: true and steel planes and history, certainly it hasn't been successful.
Speaker 1: History would have turned out a little differently. Oh absolutely. Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 1: back to Camp Z. Hass was there for thirteen months.
Speaker 1: As I said, he was, of course, I'm sure being interrogated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at one point he tried to kill himself, I throw
Speaker 1: himself over a staircase railing because he apparently he was depressed.
Speaker 1: He was pretty disappointed that his peace plan hadn't worked out,
Speaker 1: didn't work out. He was a prisoner. He was like
Speaker 1: he couldn't be friends with his friends anymore, probably being
Speaker 1: tortured family, you know, since he wasn't going to see
Speaker 1: his family again. Yeah, I'm sure there was a lot
Speaker 1: to be depressed about. Yeah. He might have also felt
Speaker 1: that the patriotic duty to kill himself before the British
Speaker 1: from wrong. Too many secrets out of him. Unfortunately he
Speaker 1: didn't succeed, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it.
Speaker 1: He just broke his leg pretty pretty severely too. He
Speaker 1: had to be in traction for like twelve weeks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would not be fun. No fun. Yeah, just a
Speaker 1: note to our listeners. Throwing yourself down a staircase not
Speaker 1: the best or over staircase railing not the best way
Speaker 1: to do it. No, not really. It's only two or
Speaker 1: three steps. You're not going to hurt you. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was more than that. He might twist your ankle, yeah,
Speaker 1: wrench it severely. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, After he recovered from
Speaker 1: from his leg thing, Hess was sent to a military
Speaker 1: hospital in South Wales. He stayed in his military hospital
Speaker 1: till the end of the war and apparently that that
Speaker 1: was a good place. It was was a hospital not
Speaker 1: only for military members but also for POWs, so it
Speaker 1: was a fairly secure place, not like your ordinary hospital,
Speaker 1: and actually required few regards than Cam's. He did. He
Speaker 1: tried to kill himself when he was there, too, didn't
Speaker 1: he He did. He tried to stab himself with a
Speaker 1: bread knife. I didn't work out so well either, apparently, jokes.
Speaker 1: Two stitches, two stitches to sew it up. Man, My
Speaker 1: brother busted open his chin and it took more than that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a half heart of the tamp I don't.
Speaker 1: I could never stab myself to that. That would be
Speaker 1: a hard way to That would be tough. People do it,
Speaker 1: But that would be hard, I think people. Yeah, you must,
Speaker 1: you really would want to have to die and some
Speaker 1: serious resolve. Yeah, Well, as you know, in the end,
Speaker 1: Germany surrendered. You guys did know that, right? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: thought they won. I thought we were speaking. That's wrong.
Speaker 1: That's not real life. No, it's not real life. I
Speaker 1: might be from an alternate universe. You probably are. We
Speaker 1: wondered that about. Oh I'm sorry. Also, it's burn Stein,
Speaker 1: not bernstein Stein. After the surrender in October nineteen, he
Speaker 1: was sent to Nuremberg to face the International Military Tribunal
Speaker 1: ak the nerd Broke trials. You've heard of those, I'm sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty well. Now he was charged with conspiracy to commit crimes,
Speaker 1: crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity, all
Speaker 1: crimes against peace. Yeah, he was trying to make peace. Yeah. Well, anyway,
Speaker 1: Luckily for him, since he sat out most of the war,
Speaker 1: it was really pretty hard to get convictions on on
Speaker 1: the war crimes and crimes against humanity. But he was
Speaker 1: found guilty of conspiracy and again crimes against peace and
Speaker 1: sentenced to life in prison. Apparently the Soviet Soviet judge
Speaker 1: in the trial wanted to him to die by hanging.
Speaker 1: They had a real thing against him, they really did. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is, but yeah, they really didn't like hess. And anyway,
Speaker 1: the French judge wanted to give him twenty years in prison,
Speaker 1: which is probably a little more fair. Correct me if
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. Nobody else got life, Um, there were or
Speaker 1: was it there was a couple that got life who
Speaker 1: didn't live very longer. There were there were three that
Speaker 1: got life. Of the seven people that we were sent
Speaker 1: to prison, three of them got life, and then the
Speaker 1: other four got fifteen or twenty years depending. I don't
Speaker 1: remember which ones. Yeah, most of them got released early
Speaker 1: except Perhus. He wants to spend out prison in West Berlin,
Speaker 1: which was he's exclusively for the seven prisoners who were
Speaker 1: convicted but not put death. So this this prison was
Speaker 1: a fairly large one. It has six hundred cells, or
Speaker 1: I should say it had six hundred cells. It's not
Speaker 1: there anymore. But they only had seven prisoners. But only
Speaker 1: seven prisoners. Yeah, they were these former high racking Nazis.
Speaker 1: That was run by the four powers, that's the US, Britain,
Speaker 1: France and the USSR. And they also applied the guards
Speaker 1: and along about nineteen sixty six there were only three
Speaker 1: prisoners left and spanned out. As I said before, I
Speaker 1: had six hundred cells. Yeah, we'd be rattling around that place. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In October nineteen sixty six, Albert Spear and Baldard vont
Speaker 1: S finished their sentences and they left. And so from
Speaker 1: that time on until his death in nineteen eight seven,
Speaker 1: Rudolfs was the only inmated spend out prison. Twenty one
Speaker 1: years all by yourself in this prison, and you can't
Speaker 1: talk to anybody. Uh, he could have very limited visits,
Speaker 1: visits with his family, but there were guards. He could
Speaker 1: talk to the guards, but the guards were constantly rotating
Speaker 1: in and out from different countries and stuff. But I
Speaker 1: also remember that there was there was sanctions on what
Speaker 1: he could talk about. Now. He wasn't allowed to talk
Speaker 1: about his piece mission or certain things about what he
Speaker 1: had done while he was with the Nazi Party, Remember
Speaker 1: there was. It was just it was strange to me
Speaker 1: the clampdown on certain topics. Yeah, no, it really is true.
Speaker 1: He was not just allowed to talk freely. Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: did not not apply to all of the prisoners. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I just sort of researched this
Speaker 1: from the hest point of view. I'm sure. I'm sure
Speaker 1: there were there were a lot of restrictions on also
Speaker 1: in their behavior. But even if even if it was
Speaker 1: that way for everybody, it probably didn't end up being
Speaker 1: his extreme because they had other German prisoners to associate with,
Speaker 1: so they at least had some some shared common bond,
Speaker 1: whereas when it's a set of guards who rotate every year,
Speaker 1: you can't make any personal connections. Yeah, not really. I mean,
Speaker 1: there were a few longer term employees like he had.
Speaker 1: I had a friendship with the warden at one time.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you more about that later. And that was interesting,
Speaker 1: but I imagine it was probably a lonely existence anyway.
Speaker 1: And even Winston Churchill, who was really no friend of Nazis,
Speaker 1: once said that he felt that the treatment of Pass
Speaker 1: was really overly harsh, especially considering that he had come
Speaker 1: to Scotland in good faith to try to broke her
Speaker 1: a peace. But and and there was the other three
Speaker 1: powers had talked about releasing him and then said they
Speaker 1: will be willing to do so, but the Soviets always vetoted.
Speaker 1: It's because again they just didn't like in them. I'm
Speaker 1: guessing it required a majority vote, yeah, and required unanimous vote, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so and so anyway, that's pretty much the end
Speaker 1: of it. He died in um by hanging. He hung himself,
Speaker 1: although again that's a mystery. So but our mystery right
Speaker 1: now is did he go of his own volition or
Speaker 1: did Hitler order him to go piece mission mission? And
Speaker 1: there's there's still some debate about that. I mean, generally
Speaker 1: the historians agree that he just wanted his own and
Speaker 1: that Hitler was really upset about it. But there's since
Speaker 1: there's some evidence that maybe he didn't just decide to
Speaker 1: go on his own, or maybe he maybe it was
Speaker 1: his idea, Hitler signed off on it, maybe Hitler ordered
Speaker 1: him to do it. And the other thing is what
Speaker 1: made them think that this was a good idea? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean really that. Yeah, so we're gonna tackle that first,
Speaker 1: and then we'll tackle the death. We'll tackle of the
Speaker 1: mystery of the suicide or murder. Yeah. Second, so the theories, Uh, well,
Speaker 1: he wanted his own and after all, this is what
Speaker 1: hass always said, and that's what Hitler said. Uh. And
Speaker 1: Hitler supposedly did get very furious when he heard about
Speaker 1: this flight. It doesn't sound like some guy who knew
Speaker 1: it advance. And plus the night that Hess landed in Scotland,
Speaker 1: the lutwaffe bombed London very heavily. Not really something you're
Speaker 1: gonna do if you're trying to put forward, you know,
Speaker 1: peace feelers. Okay, so I'll play devil's gude forget on
Speaker 1: that is that's a great way to distract from your
Speaker 1: secret peace emissary coming to the country's too. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're going to assume that the r r af is
Speaker 1: going to be kind of tied up with that. I'm
Speaker 1: not so interested in this one bogie over there. So that's, uh,
Speaker 1: that's one theory that The other theory is that he
Speaker 1: went with Hitler's permission. And actually I read an article
Speaker 1: that was written I think in three or forty I
Speaker 1: can't remember when, and I forgot the magazine it was
Speaker 1: published yet. But according to this theory, just the one
Speaker 1: that was in three parts. The article was all continuous
Speaker 1: informent we looked at, but it was broken into three parts. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: this was I found this on a bit of outlay
Speaker 1: and issue. Yeah, I don't I don't know how supported
Speaker 1: this stuff was. But essentially the idea was is that
Speaker 1: is that he had to have had Hitler's sign off
Speaker 1: on the whole thing, because otherwise, what's the point. You
Speaker 1: can come before you can you can talk about making
Speaker 1: other concessions you want, but Hitler doesn't want to do that. Well,
Speaker 1: you know you're not going to get very far. There
Speaker 1: was an article about this. Did you want to say something, No,
Speaker 1: I was just I was just agreeing with that. I mean,
Speaker 1: that does stick out to me as it's not as
Speaker 1: though this is one of the situations where Hess would
Speaker 1: come back and say, listen, the Brits are being really reasonable.
Speaker 1: You're going to kind of look like an idiot if
Speaker 1: you don't accept it. Hitler, it would have been really
Speaker 1: easy for Hitler to say, no, I don't want to
Speaker 1: do any of that, thanks um, versus going with some
Speaker 1: of you know, knowing what Hitler is willing to give,
Speaker 1: that makes for a much more powerful situation. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: definitely think that it increases your outs of success because, frankly,
Speaker 1: although I guess there is something to be said for
Speaker 1: if he was close enough to Hitler, it wouldn't be
Speaker 1: very hard for him to say, so what you know,
Speaker 1: what's the deal breaker for you? Yeah, what's important to
Speaker 1: you to keep? And what's what are you willing to
Speaker 1: give up? He could have just in casual conversation over
Speaker 1: the year that he was planning his trip, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you could have done that. Yeah. Yeah. My whole thing
Speaker 1: with Hitler had to know because I mean Hess is
Speaker 1: quoted as saying Hitler is the party, and the party
Speaker 1: is Hitler, and other statements that equated to him believing
Speaker 1: that that the fear was God, that he was so
Speaker 1: powerful and he was had to be followed that. I
Speaker 1: just can't see him suddenly turning away and doing something
Speaker 1: without the permission. But he didn't. I'm sorry to be
Speaker 1: trampling all over this because I know we have more
Speaker 1: information in this theory. But he didn't see it as treason, right.
Speaker 1: He saw it as he thought like it was a
Speaker 1: surprise party for Hitler. But but his but his personality
Speaker 1: never supported that. They called him the brown mouse, meaning
Speaker 1: he was meek and mild, and he was only brown
Speaker 1: because he was wearing the brown shirt. He didn't have
Speaker 1: any initiative. That's why for the three years prior, every
Speaker 1: body else had been, you know, jockeying for position, and
Speaker 1: he slowly got pushed out and he was given a
Speaker 1: made up honorific title, like the guy had no gumption
Speaker 1: of his own. Yeah, he was. He was definitely not
Speaker 1: not not a hard as hard ass like like say
Speaker 1: Hitler goring those people. He wanted to serve the fear,
Speaker 1: He wanted to serve the cause. That's that's the impression
Speaker 1: that But I guess my my counter to that is
Speaker 1: it he thought he was and you know, but I
Speaker 1: could have been completely misdirected. I am not disagreeing with
Speaker 1: that at all, And I totally hear what you're saying.
Speaker 1: This is one of those amicable moments. I totally hear
Speaker 1: you're saying that. You know, but he he wouldn't have
Speaker 1: had he wouldn't have taken that initiative. His character didn't
Speaker 1: show the right Yeah, but it is possible that he
Speaker 1: went went there entirely on his own and he was
Speaker 1: just kind of delusional and actually thought he was going
Speaker 1: to succeed. But back to the Hitler thing, where Hitler
Speaker 1: had there is some evidence that Hitler didn't well at advance.
Speaker 1: Has his Rudolf has his son Wolf has? Yeah. Now
Speaker 1: I wrote a long article about this that my first
Speaker 1: child Wolf find it's a cool names. Your last name, No,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it. Well, she'll have a different last name.
Speaker 1: We're gonna make it up. Oh anyway, Yeah, the Wolf sideways.
Speaker 1: Sideways is a hard name to plan for it. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Back to mctor Wolf's evidence, Okay, uh. He says that
Speaker 1: Hitler and hess met for four hours on May tenth,
Speaker 1: just not just just a few hours before he left
Speaker 1: to fly to Scotland, and Hess, as as we have said,
Speaker 1: was pretty much sideline in German. Germany by now, and
Speaker 1: he really wasn't involved with the war effort or with
Speaker 1: foreign affairs, and so I'm finding it hard to believe
Speaker 1: hit would have carved out four hours for him if
Speaker 1: it didn't actually involve the war or foreign affairs. Oh.
Speaker 1: I can totally tell you what they were doing. They
Speaker 1: were watching the latest Michael Bay transformers movement. Those are
Speaker 1: four hours long. That's a good point. Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 1: They were watching the Hobbit. Yeah, that's an easy four
Speaker 1: hour time commitment. Some time off, No, no, wait, this
Speaker 1: was the nineteen Oh they didn't have that yet, No,
Speaker 1: damn it. Yeah, I think it. I think it was
Speaker 1: right around this time that Tolkien was writing Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings, wasn't it. Yeah? Pretty close. Yeah. Okay, So
Speaker 1: hess was involved with foreign affairs in the war. No
Speaker 1: he wasn't. He wasn't. He was involved with more domestic stuff.
Speaker 1: Oh I see that. Okay, Yeah, okay, got it. Why
Speaker 1: would hit like at the time unless it wasn't one
Speaker 1: of those things. I mean, he's busy planning Operation Barbara
Speaker 1: Rosa and and you know, the bombing of London and
Speaker 1: everything else. And we're saying Hitler didn't have any kind
Speaker 1: of love for friends. Oh no, No, I mean he did.
Speaker 1: I'm sure, but I don't know that he would have
Speaker 1: had four hours to spend with Hess just hanging out
Speaker 1: when there was so much more. He's had a lot
Speaker 1: of work to do, a lot of politicking to do.
Speaker 1: You take twenty minutes and you hang out with your
Speaker 1: buddy and you have a drink. You don't take four hours. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I get where this is. This doesn't prove anything, but
Speaker 1: but it's interesting and it's Uh. The next thing is
Speaker 1: as you mentioned us, As we mentioned earlier, Karl Heinz Pinch,
Speaker 1: the adjutant to deliver the letter together, who was captured.
Speaker 1: They and a Storian came across what was his name?
Speaker 1: Mattias discovered this document in the Russian State Archives, written
Speaker 1: by Pinch, was handwritten, and according to what he said
Speaker 1: about the encounter with Hitler, Pinch said it quote Hitler
Speaker 1: calmly listened to my report and just missed me without
Speaker 1: comment unquote. Yeah. Pinch said that Hitler had known about
Speaker 1: the flight plan for a long time and so that
Speaker 1: that was the impression that he had. So when where
Speaker 1: did the maddest hell story come from? Uh? You know,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking that might have been cooked up to reassure
Speaker 1: the Japanese and the Italians that Hitler wasn't trying to
Speaker 1: stab him in the back by making peace with Britain.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why has was loyal to the
Speaker 1: loyal to the end and always settle along that it
Speaker 1: was his idea. His family also never got any kind
Speaker 1: of retribution from the Nazi Party. They never never win
Speaker 1: after him. That's the other thing is that, Yeah, a
Speaker 1: lot of people surrounding Hess, even like his astrologer and
Speaker 1: all those people. A fact, all kinds of astrologers were
Speaker 1: rounded up and arrested because that was was really into
Speaker 1: that he was into astrology and all that stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I'm reading my signs all the time.
Speaker 1: So all kinds of people suffered retaliation except for Hess's family. Actually,
Speaker 1: Hitler personally intervened to make sure that nothing happened to them. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's hard. Again, you know, it's it's hard if you're
Speaker 1: really good friends with somebody, you don't necessarily want to
Speaker 1: see their wife and kids heart just because he made
Speaker 1: a bad choice. But I don't know that Hitler necessarily
Speaker 1: strikes me as that kind of guy. Yeah. Again, his
Speaker 1: character didn't reflect that kind of behavior that we know of. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. It could be that that just
Speaker 1: you know, pastimes and all that. You know, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: me to look after his family. It might just be that.
Speaker 1: So so none of this definitively proves anything, although bites
Speaker 1: document is is pretty interesting. Well, it came out in
Speaker 1: they printed that with Der Spiegel. That came out in
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven in an article in Der Spiegel. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've talked about that Mexic. Okay, so it's like what
Speaker 1: his journal or something that they found. I think it
Speaker 1: was more on the lines of a confession to the Russians.
Speaker 1: It was it was they so the Russians used to
Speaker 1: like to make people right, these long confessions denouncing everything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's my problem with it. Well, but that's that's
Speaker 1: it because there if you ever read any of them,
Speaker 1: they're always crazy long, and they always have a very
Speaker 1: set style and certain verbiaginum. And it's I believe this
Speaker 1: falls right to that category. Yeah, it's it's almost as
Speaker 1: if they told the guy what to write. You know,
Speaker 1: they might have Well, it doesn't using the same book. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that everything in there was a lie,
Speaker 1: but but you base it on the truth. Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 1: after the war, some other people gave you talked about
Speaker 1: various things. And then there were two other high ranking
Speaker 1: Nazi Party members hanging with Hitler at that time when
Speaker 1: he received the letter in the news that has had
Speaker 1: left to go to Scotland, and they said that Hitler
Speaker 1: wasn't angry at all. Hitler's vallet said after the war
Speaker 1: that Hitler's behavior at the time indicated to him that
Speaker 1: he must have done advance. He too said Hitler wasn't
Speaker 1: upset at all. Who did you say that too? That
Speaker 1: was his valet he had. I don't know if it
Speaker 1: was a reporter or who he said it to. All
Speaker 1: of it he said that after the war, um the
Speaker 1: valet did say he was actually afraid to ask Hitler
Speaker 1: if he had known ahead of time. He didn't ask him,
Speaker 1: but he said his behavior just indicated to him that
Speaker 1: Hitler was not mad. So here's my other problem with
Speaker 1: the with this, with this theory in particular that Hitler
Speaker 1: knew is we talked I started to talk about this earlier.
Speaker 1: Is the concessions of peace that he was supposedly willing
Speaker 1: to give Germany had just spent the last two years
Speaker 1: marching south through uh Norway and then into France, and
Speaker 1: they would have kept going. No, not nor what's um,
Speaker 1: what's the other one? Just north of France? I can't
Speaker 1: thank you Netherland in Belgium, that's the That's where I
Speaker 1: got the end. But they had spent two years working
Speaker 1: their way south through all of that, and they would
Speaker 1: have kept going into Spain if Franco hadn't been just
Speaker 1: jerking them around the whole time and saying yes, no, yes,
Speaker 1: no games. But my point is, if they've just spent
Speaker 1: all that time and effort to secure it, they've wiped
Speaker 1: out the local governments, they've installed all their own people,
Speaker 1: why would they then suddenly say, you know what does leave,
Speaker 1: It's cool, you can have it at We just wanted
Speaker 1: to check the place out. That doesn't make any sense
Speaker 1: from well, from a wartime perspective to me. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know that they expected to occupy all of
Speaker 1: France forever. They did intended to keep assassin Lorraine even
Speaker 1: but they were going to withdraw from the rest of
Speaker 1: it um so that they didn't really need to be
Speaker 1: running France. I mean, they could have if they had
Speaker 1: that their their chunk of Poland and other parts of
Speaker 1: Eastern Europe, that was all they really needed. Well, but
Speaker 1: they also what they would do those like in in France,
Speaker 1: they moved in and they put in their own people.
Speaker 1: And then eventually when they took over all of France,
Speaker 1: it's the the Vichy government, the Vicy government. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: those guys were technically still running the country, but they
Speaker 1: knew that they had to keep the Germans happy. And
Speaker 1: the Germans did this like, you can live and do
Speaker 1: what we say, or we can kill you and put
Speaker 1: our own people in, which is way easier. And that's
Speaker 1: what they did. So why would they do all of that?
Speaker 1: You know, it might be that some of this stuff
Speaker 1: was misreported. It might it might have been basically, we're
Speaker 1: not going to withdraw from Western Europe, but we will
Speaker 1: leave you alone. We'll buy will buy your your munition supply,
Speaker 1: you know, for the sake of your economy, and we'll
Speaker 1: leave your overseas possessions alone, you know. And so that
Speaker 1: might have been all the concessions they actually plan to make.
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't plan for the peace to happen, right,
Speaker 1: You install your government and you say Okay, we're good here,
Speaker 1: but you know how valuable this is to us, and
Speaker 1: we are so committed to peace that we are willing
Speaker 1: to give you this thing that obviously we've fought a
Speaker 1: lot for. So you understand how much we're willing to
Speaker 1: give up for peace. That's how much we wanted. Right
Speaker 1: And if they say no, you've got your thing, you're covered.
Speaker 1: It's fine. You still have your country there that you've
Speaker 1: taken over. If they say yes, great, you've got this
Speaker 1: huge piece of leverage to say great, you're gonna give
Speaker 1: us pretty much the rest of Europe. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: there's there's sunk cost for what they did was so large.
Speaker 1: It's just so much, such a such a thing to
Speaker 1: walk away from. They didn't really expand huge resources taking
Speaker 1: over France. It was actually a pretty quick thing. Well,
Speaker 1: but then they spent a bunch of money, you know,
Speaker 1: bomb in Britain and then defending France. I mean a
Speaker 1: lot of munitions. And maybe maybe what I'm responding to
Speaker 1: is more what happened after that, for all everything that
Speaker 1: took place, But it just seems like it was such
Speaker 1: a big friggan investment. I don't think. I don't I
Speaker 1: just don't. I don't think so, okay, I mean, in
Speaker 1: my mind, you know, strategically, it makes a lot more
Speaker 1: sense to be willing to give up something that is
Speaker 1: appears to be very valuable to you that you may
Speaker 1: or may not actually care about in order to be
Speaker 1: able to leverage that to get you more things that
Speaker 1: you actually do care about in the future. It could
Speaker 1: be I don't know, maybe a horrible I don't know.
Speaker 1: That means I'm the guy who will never back down. Nope,
Speaker 1: I made it here, and I'm the one who will
Speaker 1: be like, oh, yeah, it totally looks like I care
Speaker 1: about this jewelry. You can have it, but I'm going
Speaker 1: to take your first child. Devon for everybody who doesn't know,
Speaker 1: just made the creepiest big eye face at me never
Speaker 1: having children. Now, now I'm kind of leaning towards Hitler
Speaker 1: New Yeah, I think, so are there I mean, are
Speaker 1: there any other choices? Is it just the two? Kind
Speaker 1: of those two? That's that's the question that everybody's been
Speaker 1: wondering for all these decades, and it really is a
Speaker 1: historical kind of mystery. And then, of course my other
Speaker 1: question was, how could they have thought this was gonna work.
Speaker 1: How could they have thought this is gonna be a
Speaker 1: good idea? And that's what gets this to the whole
Speaker 1: M I sixth ankle Oh, I thought it was because
Speaker 1: Hitler was a vegetarian. It might have been that to
Speaker 1: us was a vegetarian also, he was he was like
Speaker 1: really new age and all that plants are bad for you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But the theory about m I six is is that
Speaker 1: Hitler and the Germans were putting out some feelers towards
Speaker 1: influential Britishers in the early nineteen forty one on nineteen
Speaker 1: regarding peace negotiations. And of course there was the Anglo
Speaker 1: German Friendship Society or whatever that was called. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: right off the tone, Yeah, And so they were there
Speaker 1: was just so this like aristocracy to aristocracy, you know,
Speaker 1: talking back and forth. And Germany eventually proposed a meeting
Speaker 1: on neutral ground, and that was rejected by the British,
Speaker 1: as the story goes, and so they finally offered to
Speaker 1: send a delicate to England, and they proposed a guy
Speaker 1: named Ernst William Bull as a delicate and there was
Speaker 1: no response from England about this. Yeah, I'm guessing that
Speaker 1: because they were busy dealing with the Luthwaffa. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: probably it, but they were doing a good job of
Speaker 1: playing it hard to get Eventually Hitler. They were getting
Speaker 1: kind of nervous about this because this is actually kind
Speaker 1: of important to Hitler, I think, to actually not have
Speaker 1: that second front with Britain when he went after the Russians.
Speaker 1: So Hitler came up with the idea of sending a
Speaker 1: really big Nazi to England, somebody with a lot of stature,
Speaker 1: somebody who was close to Hitler, who could readibly speak
Speaker 1: for Hitler. And who else would that be? Rudolf Hess?
Speaker 1: I mean, he wasn't he wasn't really important to the
Speaker 1: war effort, and he was highly expendable actually, all things considered,
Speaker 1: it was kind of Yeah. Obviously the war continued on
Speaker 1: without him, without a hitch quite well, yeah, for a
Speaker 1: number of years at least he actually has. Yeah. Hess
Speaker 1: was not really violent. I don't think he was really
Speaker 1: into the whole war thing. No, he was just supporting
Speaker 1: the cause. Yeah, I know that well. And and and
Speaker 1: you know the Germany and Germany of the sense had
Speaker 1: a good reason to feel some grievance after the way
Speaker 1: they've been treated after World War One. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: they were justified and anything, No, but they I can
Speaker 1: I understand why there was a lot of angry Germans
Speaker 1: after World War One. Definitely. Yeah, what actually was happening
Speaker 1: is apparently, so the theory goes, and there was a
Speaker 1: little evidence to support this, we're not going to find
Speaker 1: out for a little while, but they were actually negotiating
Speaker 1: with the British Secret Service and not members of the
Speaker 1: royal family or the British aristocracy like they thought they were.
Speaker 1: It was a game, it was it was rude, it
Speaker 1: was a setup. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like they just
Speaker 1: wanted to get their hands on a high ranking Nazi
Speaker 1: and just interrogate the heck out of them, which is
Speaker 1: probably what they did. Yeah. The only the only qualm
Speaker 1: with that I have with this, and it's it stems
Speaker 1: back to that friendship society. The things that I have
Speaker 1: read are that as soon as war broke out, the
Speaker 1: friendship society was dissolved. That's what I heard too. We're yeah,
Speaker 1: we're not friends anymore. You like blew up my house
Speaker 1: and stuff, So no, we're not friends. Absolutely, Well, obviously
Speaker 1: you're not going to be overt, but there was still
Speaker 1: context between the British aristocracy and the German aristocracy. When
Speaker 1: if you have a personal friendship with somebody and they're saying, dude,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but my fear blew your house up, They're
Speaker 1: not going to be like, yeah, I know you ordered
Speaker 1: the bombs. You're gonna say, oh, thank you, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 1: you know. But also it's underground. You know, it's very
Speaker 1: easy to even if it had been totally dissolve, it
Speaker 1: would be very easy for a member of m I
Speaker 1: six to say, oh no, no, I'm part of this thing.
Speaker 1: I know that you think that we're dissolved, but just kidding,
Speaker 1: we're still underground. So that's a good point. I hadn't
Speaker 1: thought about the clandestine side of the society still. So
Speaker 1: that's why you need to meet us in Scotland, not
Speaker 1: you know, at Scotland Yard or London Proper or you know,
Speaker 1: anything like that, and don't follow the loot swop into town.
Speaker 1: Yeah you don't want to do that. Let's go talk
Speaker 1: about this, so anyway, do you guys have any favorite
Speaker 1: theories there? I think we new Hitler didn't know they
Speaker 1: were killing I think he did. I know that has
Speaker 1: just stood by that he did it independently, but I
Speaker 1: just I can't buy it. Yeah, I think Hitler knew,
Speaker 1: but I also do give some credence. I wouldn't It
Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me to find out that my six had
Speaker 1: something to do with it too. The Bridge did pulled
Speaker 1: off a lot of ingenious plans. They really would have
Speaker 1: been a good one. Yeah, they did some amazing stuff. Fact,
Speaker 1: there was another one that I stumbled across. I won't
Speaker 1: mention it now in the course of my research. Is
Speaker 1: this That's another interesting little mystery. We'll talk about that.
Speaker 1: You know, they were really crafty, they were really good. Well,
Speaker 1: when your backs against the wall, you do whatever it takes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. They did a great job of turning all
Speaker 1: the all the German agents against each other against Germany too.
Speaker 1: They totally controlled their entire network in England. I also
Speaker 1: think that part of it though, is that, like we said,
Speaker 1: I was saying before, is that the one thing I
Speaker 1: like about the Germans is they're just it's this and
Speaker 1: we're going to hear and how could you think it
Speaker 1: would be anything else? And are like, uh, nobody else
Speaker 1: thinks that way, dude, but we'll totally use it against you.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, the Germans in World War Two actually
Speaker 1: did not practice good trade craft when he was buying,
Speaker 1: not at all. Yeah. Oh, anyway, so so yeah, so
Speaker 1: I'm thinking that they wouldn't have done it Unlessen received
Speaker 1: encouragement from Britain, and that I think probably came from
Speaker 1: m I six. Might have come from saying members of
Speaker 1: the aristocracy, but I think it probably came from m
Speaker 1: I six. Yeah, let's get on to our other mystery,
Speaker 1: which is how he died. He died in August nine
Speaker 1: seven and spend out prison. Cause of death was suicide
Speaker 1: by asphyxiation. The prison had like that garden. It had
Speaker 1: like a courtyard in the middle of the garden, and
Speaker 1: it had a small summer house that has used as
Speaker 1: a reading room. Oh that's nice. I mean it's nice
Speaker 1: to think, right, you kind of think, well, he was
Speaker 1: in jail for a really, really long time. He just
Speaker 1: had to sit in his cell the whole time. But
Speaker 1: I guess there was this whole entire complex that he
Speaker 1: was nearly one in. Yeah, so it's nice to know
Speaker 1: that they gave him a little place where he could
Speaker 1: read and stuff. I think that as the years went by,
Speaker 1: they got more relaxed. You know, at first it was
Speaker 1: very very stern, very regimented. You can only be visited
Speaker 1: for like thirty minutes a month by anybody. Of course,
Speaker 1: the guards had to be present, and he couldn't talk
Speaker 1: about a whole list of topics. And that eventually that
Speaker 1: got relaxed somewhat, you would assume. Yeah, But anyway, back
Speaker 1: to his death. He uh took an electrical extension cord
Speaker 1: and wrapped one end around a window latch in the
Speaker 1: summer house and then the other around his neck, and
Speaker 1: he hung himself. That doesn't sound pleasant or easy, It doesn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was ninety three years old. He liked to be
Speaker 1: a ripe old age. That's and that is exactly where
Speaker 1: the conspiracy comes from. Is why does a man at
Speaker 1: the age of nine three suddenly decide that he's got
Speaker 1: to take his own I understand it. I totally, I
Speaker 1: totally get this, and I don't think that this is
Speaker 1: a conspiracy in any way, shape or form, but I
Speaker 1: know that's where it comes from. Weight he was super old.
Speaker 1: Why would he do that at this point? Yeah, Well
Speaker 1: he did that. There there was one thing going on.
Speaker 1: His lawyer and his family had been campaigning for a
Speaker 1: long time for him to get released, because everybody else
Speaker 1: has been released. I mean, and several of them actually
Speaker 1: we had life sentences and they were released early. Has
Speaker 1: for everything he did. He did do some bad things,
Speaker 1: but he wasn't as nearly as monstrous as some of
Speaker 1: those other guys were, especially seeing as how he was
Speaker 1: out of the war for four years, he couldn't have
Speaker 1: been involved in all of that other stuff. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is every time the issue
Speaker 1: came up to Sylviet's, as I said previously, always videoed
Speaker 1: the idea and they might have still been mad about Barbarossa,
Speaker 1: and maybe they figured Hess was part of the planning
Speaker 1: of that. I'm not sure that he was. Probably not.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know he was aware of it, but
Speaker 1: awareness is not responsibility. Yeah. But the thing about the
Speaker 1: Sylvius too is the Russians are still mad at us
Speaker 1: over World War Two. They really are. I mean, then
Speaker 1: we let them bleed for years before we finally did
Speaker 1: something about it. And think I think that some of
Speaker 1: them at least don't really like us, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I'm not totally surprised that the sylviet has had
Speaker 1: a grudge against him. But also SPANDO was located in
Speaker 1: West Berlin, which gave the Sylviets a really nice opportunity
Speaker 1: to send spies in for a looxie. Some of those
Speaker 1: guards maybe weren't just straight up guards. Yeah, that's kind
Speaker 1: of a shame to keep one well West Berlin, and
Speaker 1: they wanted to actually be able to go in and
Speaker 1: look around and gather intelligence. And so being able to
Speaker 1: being able to send your personnel to spandau in the
Speaker 1: commune from the border to the prison, they could take
Speaker 1: a diversion and look around, is that what you're getting
Speaker 1: in and look around, maybe maybe pick up stuff from spies,
Speaker 1: from dead drops, things like that. Yeah, and I when
Speaker 1: you said that, I took it as something at the prison,
Speaker 1: which it makes sense. But that makes a whole lot
Speaker 1: more sense, I get it. Yeah. Yeah, so they could
Speaker 1: have it could have been totally just for espionage. And
Speaker 1: it's kind of a shame to keep this one guy
Speaker 1: locked up for twenty one extra years. But he was
Speaker 1: a tool at that point. Yeah, and so that match
Speaker 1: that might be one of the reasons why they kept
Speaker 1: insisting that did not be released. Things began to change
Speaker 1: in Night seven. Michail Robachov was in power relationship were
Speaker 1: thawing out a little bit between the East and the West,
Speaker 1: and the Sylviets began to express a bit more I guess,
Speaker 1: receptivity to the idea of letting Hess go. And there
Speaker 1: was a report published again in their Spiegel in April
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven that said Garbagehov was now taking the
Speaker 1: view that releasing Hess would be seeing worldwide as a
Speaker 1: quote gesture of humanity unquote. Now I'm sure that I'm
Speaker 1: sure that that remark was read by everybody in the British,
Speaker 1: French and American intelligence services UM, and some people believe
Speaker 1: this might have set off alarm bells in the British
Speaker 1: Secret Service. Yeah why why, Well, we'll get to that
Speaker 1: in a sect. But from Hess this point of view,
Speaker 1: if Russia is finally going to agree to let you go,
Speaker 1: he might have actually been just a few weeks or
Speaker 1: months from freedom, and even though he didn't have a
Speaker 1: hell of a lot longer to live. You know, if
Speaker 1: you've been locked up all those years, wouldn't getting out
Speaker 1: at least and being free to look around and take
Speaker 1: in the world and you know all that stuff, wouldn't
Speaker 1: that be a worthwhile thing? Do you think he knew
Speaker 1: though that he was going to get out, that it
Speaker 1: was possible that he was going to get out, or
Speaker 1: I mean, would that necessarily have been communicated to him?
Speaker 1: Is there any proof that it was communicated to him.
Speaker 1: He did get to read the papers and stuff, but
Speaker 1: I don't know if the stuff that was about him
Speaker 1: or I mean they did. Yeah, so he might not
Speaker 1: have found out, but he was by this time. He
Speaker 1: for years he didn't have any any visits from his fan,
Speaker 1: but he started having regular visits from his family, So
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that sometimes I think it's reasonable to assume
Speaker 1: that he did know. Yeah, I think that's sometime between
Speaker 1: April and August, he probably had at least want to
Speaker 1: visit from his lawyer and his family, and they probably
Speaker 1: and they probably said that the hey, good news, he
Speaker 1: might be getting out, and even a month of freedom
Speaker 1: after forty years of prison would be the best month ever.
Speaker 1: Even if all you could do was get pushed around
Speaker 1: in a wheelchair by your family, at least you're with
Speaker 1: your family and not that freaking prison anymore. I don't know.
Speaker 1: You think there's the fear of being released, that's a
Speaker 1: that's a common thing. I think there's a little bit
Speaker 1: of the fear of being released. There's a bit of
Speaker 1: the fear of perception, not knowing how people will react
Speaker 1: to you, to going to going home to a place
Speaker 1: where people think that you are a traitor, that you're
Speaker 1: a monster, being labeled as a Nazi who you know,
Speaker 1: committed crimes against humanity, whether you were convicted of that
Speaker 1: or not. I mean, I think there's a lot of things.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it's possible. I guess this This
Speaker 1: would be for the he committed suicide argument, that not
Speaker 1: only is there the he lost the will to live,
Speaker 1: it's also it does coincide with the fact that he
Speaker 1: might have the possibility of getting out, and that could
Speaker 1: be a really, really scary thing to him. He could
Speaker 1: have just decided no, I want don't want to Yeah,
Speaker 1: And there's no way to keep yourself right. You can't
Speaker 1: just be like, I'm just gonna stay in jail, thanks though,
Speaker 1: I'm going to hold on to the bars and you
Speaker 1: can't drag me out. Yeah, you can't say that, because
Speaker 1: that works so well for not going here, So that
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that could have been a It
Speaker 1: is possible. I mean, people do lose the will to live,
Speaker 1: you know, and especially he was pretty feeble by this time.
Speaker 1: Maybe he just decided to just uh and he had
Speaker 1: committed an attempted suicide in the past when he was younger. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so and uh so, maybe he just felt like,
Speaker 1: even if I get out, now, what kind of a
Speaker 1: life am I going to have? I can't I can
Speaker 1: barely even walk, you know, because he was very, very
Speaker 1: frail at that point. You would be right, yeah, yeah, again,
Speaker 1: I think there is something to be said for saying
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what he's coming to. You know, he
Speaker 1: probably thinks he's labeled as a traitor. He's gonna have
Speaker 1: a villains welcome. He never nobody's gonna love him, He's
Speaker 1: going to be hated. I mean, I mean, I agree,
Speaker 1: probably that wouldn't be the reception. Probably somebody would say, oh,
Speaker 1: look an old man, right. They wouldn't say, oh, that's
Speaker 1: he's the one who because they're also really wasn't very
Speaker 1: much loved for the Nazi Party at that point in Germany.
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I guess, well, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of you can understand that fear, Well, yeah, there's that.
Speaker 1: I think I think that the positives outweighed the negatives.
Speaker 1: It's also possible maybe he's maybe he didn't know because
Speaker 1: the family wasn't necessarily allowed to talk about just anything
Speaker 1: with him. Yeah, that's true. Again, there was there were
Speaker 1: definitely restrictions. Well back to the murder theory though, wolf
Speaker 1: Hess mentioned before his son who was just going to
Speaker 1: name her a child for Yeah, he laid out some
Speaker 1: reasons for suspicion. Number one, he did say his last
Speaker 1: visit with his father that Hess was so weak and
Speaker 1: frail they couldn't walk without a cane on one side
Speaker 1: and a guard on the other side supporting him. So
Speaker 1: how could he have managed to actually hang himself? I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess it's not. It's you step off a thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That sounds morbid and horrible, I know, but I've had
Speaker 1: the very I thought about the same thing. Is that there,
Speaker 1: and you've tossed the cord until he gets up there
Speaker 1: and you're tying on and you just pull it down
Speaker 1: and then you tie a thing and you I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's completely possible to do with very little effort. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's as if he climbed a ten foot
Speaker 1: spire and then leapt off of it. Yeah, now I
Speaker 1: think it's it's probably it is possible. That's just what
Speaker 1: he says. He that's why he thinks he didn't commit suicide.
Speaker 1: But the family also got the body after this, and
Speaker 1: they had a second autopsy done, and there the reports
Speaker 1: from this one noted ligature marks around the neck that
Speaker 1: were horizontal across the neck, which is like more consistent
Speaker 1: with being drawled by somebody than hanging, because obviously they're
Speaker 1: going to go like across and then up past your
Speaker 1: jaw and your ears and all that stuff. And yeah,
Speaker 1: so it looks like somebody might have actually choked him
Speaker 1: to death. Yeah. Uh. And there were supposedly two strangers
Speaker 1: in American uniforms that were pressed at the side of
Speaker 1: Hess's hanging. Uh. There was a teenage medical orderly named Abdullah.
Speaker 1: I don't not sure how to pronounce this last name.
Speaker 1: We'll go with that, Yeah, okay, Abdulla will just call
Speaker 1: him Abdullah. Uh. He worked a spand out for he'd
Speaker 1: been working there for I don't know seven or eight years.
Speaker 1: Looking after Hess. Abdullah wrote in an affidavit at that quote.
Speaker 1: When I arrived at the Garden summer House, I found
Speaker 1: a scene looking as though a wrestling match had taken
Speaker 1: place ellipse, he lips the ground was churned up, and
Speaker 1: the chair in which has usually sat on the ground
Speaker 1: or sat lay on the ground a considerable distance from
Speaker 1: its usual location unquote. And then you note that those
Speaker 1: two strangers, and he said that was unusual because contact
Speaker 1: with Hess was strictly forbidden. If you're one of the guards,
Speaker 1: that's one thing, but unless you have a reason to
Speaker 1: be in contact with Hess a big note. So it
Speaker 1: was strange that those two were there. Oh wait, go ahead,
Speaker 1: keep going. At this time August seven, the US guards
Speaker 1: were in charge of in the prison. Again, it varied
Speaker 1: from French, US, British, Russian. I guess that's the theory
Speaker 1: of vols because wolf Hess believes that it was the
Speaker 1: British Secret Service that murdered his dad. And I guess
Speaker 1: his theory is that it wouldn't stink quite so bad.
Speaker 1: It hasn't died while the Americans were in charge of
Speaker 1: guarding him. Whether that's and that so he believes that
Speaker 1: those two strangers were actually British. Yes, why would Why would?
Speaker 1: Why did the Brits dock him off? That's this is
Speaker 1: the thing that This is my biggest problem with I
Speaker 1: don't understand why they would do it, particularly because weren't
Speaker 1: the Brits one of the ones that said no, let
Speaker 1: him go? Yeah, it was only the Soviets who wouldn't
Speaker 1: who would not agree to although I guess on the
Speaker 1: other hand, the Brits may have been saying, yeah, let
Speaker 1: him go, so we can murder him and as at home,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, y yeah, well, it was a
Speaker 1: bet for them they could easily play the play the
Speaker 1: good cop and say you have knowing that the Soviets
Speaker 1: are always going to be but there's no harm in saying, hey, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're open at that. Yeah. Yeah, they might have changed
Speaker 1: if the Sylviets and and and so, since we did
Speaker 1: have that change in in the sort of Soviet posture, Well,
Speaker 1: what's the policy. Here's a question, what's the policy of
Speaker 1: torture for prisoners of war at that time in the
Speaker 1: win World War two? Torture? Yeah, I believe it was
Speaker 1: not sanction Yeah, there's so so I guess the that
Speaker 1: could be not to jump ahead or anything, but that
Speaker 1: could be a reason that the Brits would want to
Speaker 1: murder hess Is if they thought, if they were scared
Speaker 1: that he might come out with his story of what
Speaker 1: they did to him for four years he was waterboarded
Speaker 1: or something something, you know, and tortured brutally. That might be,
Speaker 1: and they were trying to keep in quiet. But I
Speaker 1: but you know, on the flip side, at probably if
Speaker 1: he was going to say something, he would have said something, right,
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, that they wanted to keep money
Speaker 1: at their control. So but the question is is what
Speaker 1: was it that you know, what was the big secret
Speaker 1: he was sitting on? So he couldn't talk about the
Speaker 1: war or the peace mission that he went on. Everything
Speaker 1: was carefully supervised. The theory is that one theory is
Speaker 1: that Winston Churchill kept the war going with Germany when
Speaker 1: it wasn't necessary and a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: people died, and so that was that would have been
Speaker 1: like a huge scandal. That's one of that's one of
Speaker 1: the things that both has things that I think there
Speaker 1: might be another reason. I mean, that's a good Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would upset a lot of people. You would want
Speaker 1: to keep although it's kind of ancient history by this
Speaker 1: point in time, right, because when did Churchill time? Oh god,
Speaker 1: it wasn't eighties, I think, so you would have been
Speaker 1: dead by then, so it wouldn't have really, although you
Speaker 1: don't want to sully the memory of No, I've actually
Speaker 1: just started a search for a good Churchill book because
Speaker 1: I want to read up anymore, because I don't think
Speaker 1: he was really weird. Interestingly, I was intriguing, he was.
Speaker 1: He was amazing. Actually, I mean he was a quirky
Speaker 1: little guy, but there was some serious brain power going. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I guess that. You know, if if there was a
Speaker 1: revelation like that, there would be some serious precedent for
Speaker 1: reparations right to families, it would at least make the
Speaker 1: Brits look not super great. Well, yes, and no, I mean,
Speaker 1: because here's the here's the deal. Is that, like it
Speaker 1: would have saved some British lives. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: is it really a great idea to allow the Nazis
Speaker 1: to consolidate power on the continent? Right? No, exactly, I
Speaker 1: mean exactly. I mean he might have peace. Now, that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're not going to come after you later.
Speaker 1: But as I was saying, it gives it just gives
Speaker 1: that tacit consent everything that they're doing. You take a break,
Speaker 1: you recover, and then you go after it some more.
Speaker 1: But here's here's my thing. Here's my issue with the
Speaker 1: scene of his suicide. Let's stop. I know, I want
Speaker 1: to circle back for a second. So he uh. The
Speaker 1: description of the scene is that it looked like a
Speaker 1: wrestling match. It happened. The ground is turned up and
Speaker 1: the chair is knocked over and far away. Well, there's
Speaker 1: a couple of things that can that can explain this.
Speaker 1: It could have been that somebody ran in seeing him
Speaker 1: hanging there and flung the furniture out of the way
Speaker 1: to try to get to him, to keep him from hanging,
Speaker 1: from dying. It's also entirely possible. I don't I've never
Speaker 1: seen an image of this room, and we never will
Speaker 1: because the place has been destroyed. That this hook and
Speaker 1: where he was at, he may not have been truly hanging.
Speaker 1: There are examples of people, I don't think. So it
Speaker 1: could have been that he was, you know, just a
Speaker 1: little bit at an incline, and so when he was
Speaker 1: in the death throws, his feet are going there, churning
Speaker 1: up the dirt around him. He was flopping around. That's
Speaker 1: going to give that false impression of a struggle between
Speaker 1: multiple people when really it's his body in the death sposums. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and here's the other thing too, is that these were
Speaker 1: two actual to British says guys. It would be in
Speaker 1: really fit shape. And two guys guys one very frail
Speaker 1: nine year old man. There's not going to be a
Speaker 1: huge death struggle. Yeah. Well, yeah, he probably didn't have
Speaker 1: you know, is nazi jiu jitsu skills anymore? And I mean,
Speaker 1: frankly could have been as simple as he missed a
Speaker 1: couple of times with the power chord. Right, you know,
Speaker 1: you've got the heavier end on the power cord. You
Speaker 1: kind of toss it up and it falls, and then
Speaker 1: you drag it back and you toss it up and
Speaker 1: it falls and walking back stumbling, you know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there's a million ways. That's why I look at this.
Speaker 1: This doesn't doesn't sound affaious to me at all. Very
Speaker 1: very few things sound affaious to use to its true Well,
Speaker 1: just love, I am captain rational. Okay, Well, there are
Speaker 1: some other interesting little tidbits though. Here, um Lieutenant Colonel
Speaker 1: Eugene Bird he was common dott. It's banned out prison
Speaker 1: from the nineteen six four seventy one. Okay, So like
Speaker 1: what's that command You know, he's like the warden. Ok. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I was looking for. Yeah. I guess maybe
Speaker 1: they thought they saw it as more like and I
Speaker 1: guess you have a warden in a prison, but in
Speaker 1: a pow camp there's always a commandant military installations. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess so. But he got to know No Rudolph
Speaker 1: Hess very well. I actually they actually became friends and
Speaker 1: they started working on a collaboration on a book about
Speaker 1: Hess and his peace flight. And I thought he wasn't
Speaker 1: allowed to talk about that. Well, apparently there's some exception,
Speaker 1: and maybe it was kind of surreptitious, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But when Bird superiors got wind of this in March
Speaker 1: ninety one, Bird was placed under house arrest and he
Speaker 1: was interrogated and extensively. He wrote about it later. He
Speaker 1: was eventually forced to resign. And you gotta wonder, what's
Speaker 1: the big secret here? What's the big deal? I mean,
Speaker 1: I would think that would be a positive thing if
Speaker 1: Hess wants to tell his story. What's wrong with that? Um?
Speaker 1: And Bird eventually did publish a book called The Loneliest
Speaker 1: Man in the World about Hess. When did the in
Speaker 1: the U S? When did the ruling come down that
Speaker 1: prisoners couldn't make money from anything related to their acts.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: I know that was a ruling that came down. I
Speaker 1: think it was a law that was passed right right.
Speaker 1: The point though, is that I just wonder if it
Speaker 1: was kind of that had set a general precedent among
Speaker 1: the worldwide audience of oh wait, you're a Nazi. You
Speaker 1: shouldn't be able to commemorate yourself in this way. Do
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying? You talking about him writing
Speaker 1: a book? Yeah, well, you know, potentially making some cash
Speaker 1: off of it. I don't think the plan was so that.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they were really going to make
Speaker 1: any cash out of the deal. But people, what was
Speaker 1: nobody writes a book to write a book? Well, that's true,
Speaker 1: but what was what was hes going to spend the
Speaker 1: money on? Anyway he was in prison, he would he
Speaker 1: could have bequeathed it to his relatives. He could have
Speaker 1: in a way made some money to benefit people he knew.
Speaker 1: But I'm just wondering if that's the reason that they
Speaker 1: put those squash on it. There were other high ranking
Speaker 1: Nazis who wrote memoirs after their release from prison. Right
Speaker 1: probably made money off after their release from prison. I
Speaker 1: just I just think that it would have I mean,
Speaker 1: they would have said that, right, if they had arrested Bird,
Speaker 1: they would have come out publicly and they would have said, listen,
Speaker 1: there's this law that we have that he was breaking.
Speaker 1: I don't know that there was that's in the US. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: but you know that you would say, listen, this guy
Speaker 1: was helping this war criminal write a book and we
Speaker 1: don't think that's right. That's why I arrested him. You
Speaker 1: wouldn't say, but don't worry about it. No nothing to
Speaker 1: see here, people, that's fine, and keep it under wraps.
Speaker 1: It's almost as if you've never watched a governmental body
Speaker 1: do that kind of weirdness before. Devon. They do that
Speaker 1: all the time. I live in America. We do not
Speaker 1: do that, except for all the time. This is America
Speaker 1: Freedom Forward. We're talking about Bird. Bird actually did say
Speaker 1: that he thought, no, not in the Eagle. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: we're going away off fact here. Okay, oh yeah, we
Speaker 1: are back to Bird. Though he did publicly say that
Speaker 1: he thought that might have been murdered. Again, of course
Speaker 1: he did. Yeah, I mean, the two other men were
Speaker 1: serving life sentences in Spandau were released early in the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, believe or not because they were old and six,
Speaker 1: so for humanitarian reasons. By the mid eighties, Rudolfs was
Speaker 1: also pretty old and sick. So why wasn't he let
Speaker 1: go again? It seems to me the reason was to
Speaker 1: keep him quiet about something. I can't see any other reason.
Speaker 1: I mean, all kinds of people were saying that he
Speaker 1: should be let go. He probably had things about British
Speaker 1: cuisine maybe, yeah, maybe that it's probably what it was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he said he was awful. Yeah, yeah, you can't get
Speaker 1: away with that baked beans for breakfast. What he must Yeah,
Speaker 1: he must pronounced which mitchett, And that's probably what it is.
Speaker 1: So I've already said that I don't think the scandal
Speaker 1: was Winston Churchill refusing to make peace, but there might
Speaker 1: have been another reason. Yeah. Well, it has been said
Speaker 1: there were members of the royal family who were sympathetic
Speaker 1: to Germany, and it could it be that there actually
Speaker 1: were discussions between the aristocracy and the Germans that the
Speaker 1: that the British Secret Service hadn't been aware of until
Speaker 1: after the fact perhaps or maybe even at the time
Speaker 1: and Hass was it at Hess was knowledgeable about these things,
Speaker 1: and depending on what was said and who said it, um,
Speaker 1: that might be a secret worth keeping. I can't think
Speaker 1: of any other reason to keep this guy locked up
Speaker 1: for all these years. But then that's a reason to
Speaker 1: kill him if he was about to get let out.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I really I understand the fear of
Speaker 1: scandal and embarrassment, but I I also just wonder how
Speaker 1: much credence people are gonna give to a convicted Nazi
Speaker 1: war criminal for most of his life in jail, and
Speaker 1: he was not a convicted war criminal, yeah he was. No,
Speaker 1: he was convicted of crimes against peace, but he was
Speaker 1: he was. He was not convicted of war crimes or
Speaker 1: crimes against humanity. But in everybody's mind, he's a war criminal.
Speaker 1: He spent forty some years, he's a freaking wars personal
Speaker 1: friend populations mind. Yeah, so he is so easy to discredit.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's it doesn't make sense. I also, I
Speaker 1: also guess I don't know what the why you would
Speaker 1: murder him instead of just saying, hey, Russians, y'all just
Speaker 1: keep saying no and we'll get, we'll get, we owe
Speaker 1: you two big favors, right, I mean, why would you
Speaker 1: not just yeah? But again, I'm still I still honestly wonder.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm sure he was murdered, but I
Speaker 1: still honestly wondered what it was that they didn't want
Speaker 1: sta think about, what it was that he knew that
Speaker 1: they didn't want the world worn out about. Based on
Speaker 1: what Devin said, is that British used the term y'all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could have been that. I don't know, but but
Speaker 1: it seems strange because you know, in the act bath
Speaker 1: of World War Two, there's historians out there, there's journalists,
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of people who want to know. They
Speaker 1: want to sort out the story of what happened. They
Speaker 1: want to talk to as many people as they can
Speaker 1: to find out the entire history or World War two.
Speaker 1: And this guy had some interesting stuff to tell us all.
Speaker 1: And but he was he was gagged. He couldn't say
Speaker 1: a word, you know. So this is just just kind
Speaker 1: of dawned on me, and I wonder if maybe this
Speaker 1: is the reason, if indeed he was killed, what happened
Speaker 1: to Spandau after he died, They tore it down. They
Speaker 1: tore it down. Why well, some people think that they
Speaker 1: tore it down just to conceal the evidence of the crime,
Speaker 1: which I don't believe. But now they tore it down
Speaker 1: because they didn't want it to become a neo Nazi
Speaker 1: shrine exactly. So that is one of the things things
Speaker 1: that I said. I'm like, wait a minute, because that
Speaker 1: that movement had been gaining traction for a while at
Speaker 1: that point. I mean, you know, it was on the
Speaker 1: rise again, and it could have been that he would
Speaker 1: have been hailed as some kind of martyr or messiah
Speaker 1: or saint or whatever. So that could have been a
Speaker 1: serious fear. Well, so but why this, Why do you
Speaker 1: need to keep him gagged? If he comes out and
Speaker 1: anything he says, these people are going to get ahold
Speaker 1: of and latch onto and take as a motivation. I
Speaker 1: could see that as a as a giant fear for
Speaker 1: the Germans alone, because the German government at in the
Speaker 1: eighties was really combating this, this neo Nazi movement that
Speaker 1: was happening, So you see where they would be concerned
Speaker 1: about it. I mean, it's just it's it popped in
Speaker 1: my head, right or wrong. I could suddenly. But they didn't. Again,
Speaker 1: they didn't try to stop any other former high ranking
Speaker 1: Nazis like again Albert Spirit, et cetera, from publishing their memoirs.
Speaker 1: I almost wonder if that would be a good argument
Speaker 1: for suicide though if Hess was really not he didn't
Speaker 1: have that really warlike nature in him. He didn't have
Speaker 1: that hate was to the party, not to the things
Speaker 1: the party did well, or to the you know kind
Speaker 1: of we're going to make this world great part of
Speaker 1: the party, not the like, and also kill a bunch
Speaker 1: of people, and you know, and that maybe he did.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe somebody did say, oh, yeah, there's this
Speaker 1: neo Nazi resurrection and it's going to be great when
Speaker 1: you get out. You know, this is going to happen.
Speaker 1: Maybe he thought, oh my god, this is what I
Speaker 1: Maybe he had a realization, maybe have that was not
Speaker 1: what he wanted it to. Well, it didn't have to
Speaker 1: be that way, though, I mean he could have if
Speaker 1: they said, hey, address our next rally, dude, he could
Speaker 1: have just said, screw you. I don't support you people
Speaker 1: at all. Look look how things turned out. But I
Speaker 1: don't know that that, you know, and I'm sure the
Speaker 1: terms of his release, he would have been required to
Speaker 1: not do neo Nazi activities. Sure, I know, but I
Speaker 1: think that, you know, I think there's there's that chance
Speaker 1: of having that reflective moment of somebody saying, it's so great,
Speaker 1: you're going to get out and all these people are
Speaker 1: here to support you and this is what they believe,
Speaker 1: and for you to have that moment of realization of
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is my legacy. Well yeah, but
Speaker 1: it didn't have to be that way. It didn't have
Speaker 1: to be. But they were also three years old, and
Speaker 1: like they were probably not going to anna answer the world,
Speaker 1: so so that he could have a big reception committee
Speaker 1: outside the prison for him, you know, but they probably
Speaker 1: would be quiet about it. But this is very cynical.
Speaker 1: I have a question. How soon after he died did
Speaker 1: they get rid of the prison. I'm not sure exactly
Speaker 1: what it was. It was pretty soon. It wasn't as
Speaker 1: if ten years later they finally got around to tear
Speaker 1: the thing down. It's kind of too bad. It was
Speaker 1: it was a cool old building. I mean, it was
Speaker 1: like kind of castle like it was. It was, and
Speaker 1: so it's kind of a shame. But this is going
Speaker 1: to sound really horrible. And I almost wonder if they
Speaker 1: just needed to tear it down. There might have been
Speaker 1: in one of the real estate too. Well, I think
Speaker 1: I don't disagree with that. An we just needed to
Speaker 1: tear this thing down. And there's this guy who has
Speaker 1: lived for way longer than we ever thought he would live,
Speaker 1: So we just got to get rid of him. They
Speaker 1: really spent a ton of money keeping one guy locked up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, so I almost I wonder. I know that's
Speaker 1: really horrible. I know it sounds horrible and cynical, and
Speaker 1: I'm really really sorry, but I almost wonder if they
Speaker 1: just thought, this guy gotta go, we need to, you
Speaker 1: know here. Maybe it was real estate developers. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean real estate developers are the ones that killed him.
Speaker 1: If this was Portland's I would absolutely say. Yeah. They
Speaker 1: dressed in military uniform. Yeah, they were Remax agents. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But I mean I guess you know, who would have
Speaker 1: thought when you locked a dude up that he would
Speaker 1: live for that much longer. Yeah, he was a relatively
Speaker 1: young man, and he was just something he was. He
Speaker 1: was young. I mean, he was only a couple of
Speaker 1: years older than I am now. Yeah, so that is
Speaker 1: a very young age to get locked up. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: all of the rest of his people had been released
Speaker 1: in the right twenty years ago, and so they probably
Speaker 1: just assumed, all right, this guy is going to be
Speaker 1: dead in a couple of years, it'll be fine. And
Speaker 1: then twenty years on, oh man, we can't afford this.
Speaker 1: Maybe that was it. We're just sick of this and
Speaker 1: get rid of the guy. I don't know, it's crazy,
Speaker 1: but uh was in speaking of shrines, his his body
Speaker 1: was buried in the family cemetery and I can't remember
Speaker 1: the name of the town in Germany and somewhere in Bavaria,
Speaker 1: I think, uh. And it unfortunately became kind of a
Speaker 1: shrine for for neo Nazis who would have annual gatherings
Speaker 1: there in his grave, and so alas like government dug
Speaker 1: up the grave and burned the body and scattered the ashes.
Speaker 1: I guess that's just upsetting because it doesn't feel like
Speaker 1: what he wanted, you know about. Yeah, yeah, he probably
Speaker 1: think about the neo Nazis. It's frankly, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't really know much about these guys. I suspect
Speaker 1: that it's not even so much about politics or the
Speaker 1: socialism or anything. I think it's just about anti semitism,
Speaker 1: it's about racism. Yet it's about which is not what
Speaker 1: the Nazi Party was started for. And I agree they
Speaker 1: were they were racist, but that's not it wasn't the
Speaker 1: whole thing with that. But there were racists later, yeah,
Speaker 1: well yeah, there there was. It's um, it's based on
Speaker 1: a very common sentiment of if they weren't here, I
Speaker 1: do better. But no matter what that that people is,
Speaker 1: there's always one group saying if you weren't here, it'd
Speaker 1: be better for us. I mean, that's but that was
Speaker 1: That was the very i'm going to say naive beginning
Speaker 1: of the racism and the Nazi Party, and then it
Speaker 1: escalated to a horrible level. And we can all agree
Speaker 1: on but and so I agree that he probably was.
Speaker 1: It is terrible because it wasn't like he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I want a bunch of drunk skinheads on my great Really,
Speaker 1: I don't think he would have cared for that at all.
Speaker 1: God he got the short end of the stick. But
Speaker 1: the thing that to remember about the Nazis is it
Speaker 1: wasn't just because they were racist, but it's also because
Speaker 1: at the time they came into being, there was this real, huge,
Speaker 1: intellectual fat at loose in the world called the eugenics movement,
Speaker 1: and which began here in America, by the way, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that great job. Yeah and then and then and
Speaker 1: you know, of course leave it to Hitler in the
Speaker 1: Gang to take this to an industrial scale. But they
Speaker 1: actually thought that they were saving the human race because
Speaker 1: they were all these inferior people out there, and if
Speaker 1: you we think they're genes in the gene pool, it's
Speaker 1: gonna make us all better off down the line. And
Speaker 1: so that's where that came from. Obviously, Eugenics is like
Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's still out there. You still see
Speaker 1: the Darwin Awards, and there's movies like um Idiocracy, which
Speaker 1: you know, embodies the same ideas, and so there's still
Speaker 1: lots of people who really believe that hopefully we're not gonna, like,
Speaker 1: you know, see a return to the Holocaust. Hopefully not. Yeah. Alright,
Speaker 1: well enough of that. Do you guys have any series
Speaker 1: I'm totally I think I think that Hess was sent
Speaker 1: by Hitler, and I also think that he didn't kill himself.
Speaker 1: I think it, of course you could have been shoop. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he is about that right age. Yeah, I think he
Speaker 1: was sent by Hitler. I think they were both duped
Speaker 1: by my six probably, and I think it's highly possible.
Speaker 1: I don't I obviously don't know, but I given the
Speaker 1: fact that it was for so many years, it seems
Speaker 1: so important to keep him muzzled, you gotta wonder. And
Speaker 1: then and then all of a sudden he might be
Speaker 1: let go bhoops. I guess it's time for him to
Speaker 1: commit suicide. Yeah, you gotta wonder. I'm not saying I
Speaker 1: have definitive evidence or anything, but I'm wondering. Alright. Well, anyway,
Speaker 1: I guess we'll just call that once solved and solved
Speaker 1: by something totally. Yea, there talking about we got it,
Speaker 1: damn it. We've got a hundred percent record. That's awesome. Well, hey,
Speaker 1: I'd tied for a few. A few things that you
Speaker 1: guys probably want to know about. You probably want to know.
Speaker 1: Do we have a website? Yeah, we do. It's called
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh. You can download episodes,
Speaker 1: listen episodes, check our links. We always put links out
Speaker 1: for you, and you can also well, until recently, you
Speaker 1: can also leave comments that we we actually turned turned
Speaker 1: off the comments because well, some people were getting a
Speaker 1: little love rule. Turns out the internet is full of
Speaker 1: anonymous jerks. Yeah, and I apologize because we had some
Speaker 1: other people who were posting really great, insightful first, but
Speaker 1: there was all group who ruined it for everybody. I'm sorry, guys,
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Speaker 1: website can go choose. We have the there's a new
Speaker 1: discussion every time that we post each episode. Yeah, which
Speaker 1: they're you know, they're small right now, but go say
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Speaker 1: podcast at gmail dot com, So send us an email
Speaker 1: if you've got any ideas for a mystery or something
Speaker 1: fun like that, or if you want to be an expert,
Speaker 1: or you just want to chat chat about the mystery
Speaker 1: in generally yeah, yeah, yeah, or if you happen to
Speaker 1: know something about one of the mysteries. We replied to
Speaker 1: every single email we got. We do sometimes they're not
Speaker 1: as speedy as we want, but literally every single email
Speaker 1: we get we replied to or replies it's just us.
Speaker 1: Yeah we don't have a boat yet, but we will
Speaker 1: is going to be justin We've finally found a use
Speaker 1: for that intern. Yeah where else. So also, if you
Speaker 1: want to support the show, this is totally optional, of course,
Speaker 1: but there is Patreon. You go to patreon dot com
Speaker 1: slash thinking sideways and if you want to, you can
Speaker 1: pledge a certain amount of money per episode. Be aware
Speaker 1: of that, you know, because you get charged that amount
Speaker 1: for every episode. So if you're giving us fifty bucks,
Speaker 1: make sure, Oh no, you can if you want to,
Speaker 1: just realize that it's gonna be every week. You're getting good,
Speaker 1: which is the reason that we have the papal option
Speaker 1: as well for one time donation. Or we've got the
Speaker 1: merchandise which does support the show, and you get to
Speaker 1: also support some sweet shirt hurts or have a mug
Speaker 1: or a night light or some stickers. Somebody bought the
Speaker 1: Mary celestire. We have a Mary celestire. Yeah, I'm just kidding,
Speaker 1: all right. So that's about it for me. You guys
Speaker 1: have any last thoughts where we signed up for the week,
Speaker 1: I got Nazi else, Oh my god, no,