1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minky. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: Our guest today is Kathy gautieris a widely respected and 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: widely published historian of spiritualism and the occult. She taught 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: at Sweet Briar College for eighteen years before serving as 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: Scholar in Residence at the New York Public Library. She's 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: written important works on spiritualism and edited incredibly helpful guides 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: like The Occult in Nineteenth Century America and The Handbook 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: of Spiritualism and Channeling that are incredible guides to the 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: complex and fascinating stories we've discussed. Her book, Plato's Ghost, 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: dives deep into the ideas that drove the spiritualist movement. 11 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: If you've been hoping to hear more about what spiritualists 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: actually believed, then this interview will be a treat for you. 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: Enjoy her conversation with researcher Carl Nellis, and be sure 14 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: to pick up Kathy's book without further ado. Here's our 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: conversation with Dr Kathy gautieris. This is the Unobscured Interview 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: series for season two. I'm Aaron Banky in the nineteenth century. 17 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: What did it mean to be a spiritualist. There's a 18 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: lot of variety that could go into that designation. It's 19 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: not unlike people going to psychics today or New age 20 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: clinics something like that. So there are degrees of participation. Right. 21 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: You could literally go as a lark, right, something to 22 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: do on a Friday evening because it was all the 23 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: rage and it sounded amusing, and have no serious investment 24 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: in intellectual really or spiritually at all. You can also 25 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: use it intermittently, so when people would die, for example, 26 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: then a lot of people would turn to spiritualism to 27 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: keep in contact with their last loved ones. Or you 28 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: could go the whole chelata, if you will, which is 29 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: to self identify as a spiritualist meant to have particular 30 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: political connotations as well as a religious belief structure. And 31 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: if you told people you are spiritualist, there are some 32 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: possible negative ramifications to that. Some people found it um 33 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: well between sketchy and demonic, depending on how hardcore they 34 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: were in their beliefs. And but it really to be 35 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: able to self identify as a spiritualist meant buying into 36 00:02:53,800 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: this world view of progress and the ultimate um you know, 37 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: goodness of people. So even if the ultimate goodness of 38 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: people was not currently manifesting itself. It would over time, right, 39 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: it would unfold in the direction of progress. Everybody would 40 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: get better, everybody would improve unto perfection. So let's talk 41 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: about some of what was going on in American life 42 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: and American culture that led to the practice of spiritualism 43 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: in the decades before. UM. It's part of the part 44 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: of what makes the movements so fascinating is that it 45 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: fed on movements in science. They fed on movements in religion. UM. 46 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: Let's start with religion in American life in the thirties 47 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: and forties leading up to what came to be known 48 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: as modern spiritualism. How would you describe kind of the 49 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: American religious landscape booming Um, from about eighteen twenty five 50 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: to eighteen fifty. You see an extraordinary expansion of different 51 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: kinds of religions imported to America and different religions developed 52 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: in America. So I understand you talked some about the 53 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: utopian movements, UM, and those are all coming out of 54 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: this period, right. So, the the Shakers are expanding wildly, 55 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: the Mormons are, you know, developing. The United Community is developing, 56 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: and spiritualism is among the last gasp of that great 57 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: religious fervor. So there are a lot of things that 58 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: people need to take new account of. And uh, baby, 59 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: religions don't start when the established ones are working. So 60 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: when you have a new landscape that requires creating new meaning, 61 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: that's when you see religions, you know, just go wildfire, 62 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: right as the burned over district in Upstate New York 63 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: was called. And Spiritualism is among the last and certainly 64 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: the most inclusive of those religions that were brought forth. 65 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk a little bit about one of 66 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: those traditions that spiritualist very um consciously identified as one 67 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: of the traditions they were inheriting. And um, I'll ask you, 68 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: can you describe a little bit about the place that 69 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: Emmanuel Swedenborg and the New Church played in that religious landscape. 70 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: Swedenborg's effect on American religious landscape cannot be overestimated. He 71 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: really does not get enough credit for his impact on 72 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: any of the movements that began during the second grade Awakening, 73 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: and he's highly influential on all of them. Frankly, So 74 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: what Swedenborg Swedenborg does is he creates a dynamic Protestantism 75 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: so Catholicism has always been dynamic in turn ms of 76 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: there are multiple saints right, there are you know as 77 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: continuing miracles. There's ongoing conversations from God. So these ideas 78 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: of direct revelation, direct experience of the afterlife, and what 79 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: you find in Swedenborg's afterlife is very busy. It's busy busy. 80 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: It's a very Protestant this worldly. So there are three 81 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: tiers in heaven, and people are getting better and farming 82 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: societies and making friends and literally learning languages and moving right, 83 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: there's progress, and then there are three tears in hell 84 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: and you. But but God is not judging. This is 85 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: not an apocalyptic God. So if you're a bad person, 86 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: you literally just throw yourself into help. You are drawn 87 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: to the appropriate realm of where you belong in the afterlife, 88 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: whether that's Yer or Na. So we it's removed from 89 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: a sort Protestant literalism, both because it is only somewhat 90 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: dependent on the Bible. He has this radically metaphorical reading 91 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: of the Bible, which is you know, frankly a bit 92 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: Catholic um, and it had it just moves away from 93 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: the sort of static heaven and hell um. So this 94 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: idea of movement in the afterlife, this idea of a 95 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: non judgmental god, this idea that you determine your own 96 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: afterlife fate. But spiritualism does and that's what Marmontism does 97 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: to it in a different form, is it it takes 98 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: those six fears, it turns them into a platonic seven, 99 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: and it projects it all into heaven. So it eliminates 100 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: health completely. And early Mormonism does the same thing. There's 101 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: a little tiny hell and it's reserved for postdates. There 102 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: are three tears of heaven, and you're a good person, 103 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: a better person, or the best person you know, win, 104 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: win win. So spiritualism does that for absolutely everyone. And 105 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: the movement is continual. So rather than you get placed 106 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: in the correct sphere and then you form societies there, 107 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: you're always going up right, You're always going up through 108 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: different echelons of spiritualism in the afterlife. You're always improving. 109 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: So that's one of the major theological influences on spiritualism. 110 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of the other practices that were 111 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: going on in what was considered a kind of a 112 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: horizon of science with mesmerism and animal magnetism, UH and 113 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: what was seen as a new science. Uh, you know, 114 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: sometimes combined with with phrenology um of the human mind 115 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: and the human soul. What was the influence of those 116 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: kind of practices on the beginnings of spiritualism Mesmerism as 117 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: it came to a marry come um, which was really 118 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: more the brainchild of the student of Anton. Mesmer is 119 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: a healing science, right, And I say is because we 120 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: still carry around beliefs that magnets will affect different parts 121 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: of your body. So I know, you know workers for example, 122 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: who you know have magnetic soles in their shoes or 123 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: have magnets on their backs. That is Mesmerism still in practice. 124 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: But Mesmerism was looking for a single cause, right. So 125 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: the discovery of gravity, for example, I was like, oh, 126 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: well that answers nine percent of our questions, right, and 127 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: it's universal, right, gravity works everywhere at all times, so 128 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: people who are looking for things like that. But regarding 129 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: the human body, so the idea that the cosmos is 130 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: held up by magnets goes back to Aristotle, right, not magnets. 131 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: He didn't know the magnets, I don't think. But the 132 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: the idea that why don't stars fall out of the 133 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: sky right, why our planets predictable? It was like, well, 134 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: they're held in some sort of um, you know, kinetic 135 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: tension through magnetic attraction. Certainly Kepler thought those and so 136 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: what Mesmer did was he applied that idea to the 137 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: human body. So not only the planets, but the tides 138 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: and the sea and the waning of the moon and 139 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: the flow of this energy through the body could be 140 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: redirected and redistributed. And this was a a single cause 141 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: theory that you know, was extremely successful. Whether one thinks 142 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: that you could attribute most of that placebo effect, I 143 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: personally don't even know why that matters. It was extremely successful. 144 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: And the marriage of this idea of continual improvement and 145 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: your sort of psychological disposition, uh went hand in hand, right, 146 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: And certainly some of the earliest spiritualist mediums were a 147 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: mesmeric transhailers. And one of the ways that you describe 148 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: this moment in American history, and many other historians do 149 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: as well, is to call what was going on at 150 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: this time with with new ideas, new literary movements, to 151 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: call it the American Renaissance. Can you talk a little 152 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: bit about what you mean by that idea and how 153 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: that helps to frame an understanding of spiritualism that we 154 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: can use the Fairs of the American Renaissance was originally 155 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: employed by scholars of literature to refer to when Americans 156 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: really started having their own publishing business. So you can 157 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: place it basically at James Fenimore Cooper. So prior to that, 158 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: Americans are reading things that they can get from Britain, 159 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: and but from Cooper on and certainly we get to 160 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: Poe and then you know, the great Emerson and friends. 161 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: What you you have is this triangulation between Philadelphia, Boston 162 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: and New York that creates publishing lines. And so this 163 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: sort of refers to that moment because obviously the self 164 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: publication and the ability to move that uh these books 165 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: into the interior via rivers was crucial for the development 166 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: of basically all of these new religions, every one of 167 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: them used printing presses. But I use it specifically to 168 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: also mean the American enchantment with the classics, and I 169 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: mean Greeks and Romans and Egyptians classics, and I attributed 170 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: to the uh discomfiting sense of newness that in America 171 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: we're so pleased with ourselves. If there's a building that's 172 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: three years old. You know, we slap a plaque on 173 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: it and you know, put it on the National Register. 174 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: But that that had to have been extremely uncomfortable, particularly 175 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: everybody's grandpa was, you know, on the other side of 176 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: the war, right, I mean, how uncomfortable was that. So 177 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: this idea that we needed a legitimating grounding story that 178 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: comes through, I think, in all of the new religions 179 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: during that movement, and they all seek to place America 180 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: in a much longer tradition of what everyone considered to 181 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: be venerable. UM. And one of the things that we 182 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: see in early spiritualism, UH, is that there are spirits 183 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: like Benjamin Franklin and George Washington, William Penn, other statesmen 184 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: appearing in various sound circles and translectors and UM, sometimes 185 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: just addressing one or two people, sometimes addressing large crowds. UM. 186 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about what these kinds 187 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: of appearances tell us about spiritual relation to history and 188 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:31,359 Speaker 1: this kind of bigger story that you're talking about. Absolutely, 189 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: spiritualism allowed, through its construction, UH, to do two things. 190 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: Number One, you always had the greats of history to hand. 191 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: They might not want to talk to you today, But 192 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: Ben Franklin, we'll talk to you tomorrow, as will Swedenburg, 193 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: as will Shakespeare, as will Francis Bacon. So you you 194 00:14:54,160 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: have access to these great luminaries in unprecedented ways sa sultaneously. However, 195 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: a lot of them changed their mind after death. So 196 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: if you said something, you know what was considered immoral 197 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: according to eighteen fifty two Culture of Progressive Spiritualists, you 198 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: could learn after death that you were wrong. So Plato 199 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: becomes an abolitionist. Franklin, of course, is a great American hero, 200 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: and the whole idea of spiritualism is predicated on the 201 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: idea of the telegraph. If you can have invisible communication 202 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: across time and space, why can't you have an invisible 203 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: communication between life and death, right instantaneous communication. So the 204 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: trope of electricity was extremely important, but frankly nobody understood it. 205 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: So they relied a lot on Franklin to sort of 206 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: explain how electricity worked and how this affected me unship, 207 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: and how to you know and what the you know? 208 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: The great plans for the future are certainly the same 209 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: thing with Washington and this uh again, this building of 210 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: a legitimate, solid history that could simultaneously evoke you know, 211 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: American and exceptionalism is too strong a word, but American importance, 212 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: and also give people a space to learn posthumously. And 213 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: you've written about the ways that in your view, spiritualism 214 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: and what spiritualists were doing and practicing and teaching, UM 215 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: presents a picture of of people, UM, uncomfortable with time. 216 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: You say, spiritualism represents a discomfort with time, and so 217 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: we've mentioned a little bit about what this means for 218 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: how spiritualist view the past. Can you also talk about 219 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: what you mean when you say that spiritualists, UM, we're 220 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: kind of in love with futurity. That's nicely put. Yes, 221 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 1: indeed in love with futurity. The prevailing belief has had 222 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: some hiccups obviously, but that you know, everything was progressing right, 223 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: Everything was on this path to perfection. The world is 224 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:27,959 Speaker 1: getting better, We're going to conquer the social crimes, and 225 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: you know, when you die, you continually get better. So 226 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: the future was utopian but not set, if that makes 227 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: any sense. So, like a lot of people said, um, 228 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: if you're in a traditional sort of Christian apocalyptic worldview, 229 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: you know the apocalypse is going to come at point 230 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: X and then the good people are gonna, you know, 231 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: have a grand time for a thousand years and then 232 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: go up to the new Jerusalem. The bad people are 233 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: going to fry Um and that you know, has a 234 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: very specific goal. And people make the mistake of setting dates. 235 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: And I tell all my students, if you're going to 236 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: start a baby religion, never set a date because on 237 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: verification becomes a problem when the date rolls around in 238 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: the world is still here. So the spiritualist never set 239 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: a date, right. They had a slow, gradual improvement plan 240 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: and they need only look around to see things that 241 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: were not working. They very clearly. Victorian America had all 242 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: sorts of problems with even post Civil War. You know, 243 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: reconstruction was a disaster, the state of women and children 244 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: was awful. Factories, you know, the White Plague, tenement houses, etcetera. 245 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: So they were projects on earth. But everything was marching 246 00:18:53,440 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: towards this utopian future which would have as handmaids medicine, technology, science, 247 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: that all of these conceptual systems were going to work 248 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: together to usher in this future perfection. That's great. So 249 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: with these kind of some of the big picture beliefs 250 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: and historical context, even I'm glad you mentioned technology with 251 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,239 Speaker 1: the telegraph and and the canals and being able to 252 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: move information. UM. Let's jump into some of the lives 253 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: of the people who who developed and UH and dispersed 254 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: the movement. And let's start where so many historians do, 255 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: with Andrew Jackson Davis. Who was Andrew Jackson Davis and 256 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: what was significant about him in the context of some 257 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: of these things like mesmerism and the burned over District. 258 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson Davis was a guy from Poughkeepsie, New York 259 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: who was called the Poughkeepsie Sayre Fabulous title, and he 260 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: was a mesmeric trance healer. He was also a wildly 261 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: prolific author, and he wrote dozens of books that would 262 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: go into many many editions over the course of his lifetime. 263 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: On UM basically was sweden Borgian take on the future 264 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: of you know, dead people and the most merrick take 265 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: on the future of life people. And he put these 266 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: things together in what he called the Harmonial philosophy. And 267 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: the Harmonial philosophy was very palatable. You're talking a world 268 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: in which you know, blood letting still happened, and you know, 269 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: people did not yet understand that clean linens would cut 270 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: down on you know, the spread of disease. So the 271 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: the idea that you could have been magnetized and have 272 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: a conversation one on one with this person who was 273 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: listening to you and who was sincerely trying to make 274 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: your life better and that your disposition would improve. This 275 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: was all extremely palatable given the medical landscape of the time. 276 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: So he's trooping around publishing books on the harmonial philosophy 277 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: at the time. He appreciates the Fox Sisters by many years, 278 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: and so when he hears about the Fox Sisters and 279 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: the so called mysterious wrappings, he melds his worldview with 280 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: their experiential ritual, if you will, and that was the 281 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: marriage that needed happening. Can you describe he gave theology 282 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: to their ritual and they brought ritual to his philosophy beautifully. 283 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: But oh, that's great, I'm glad you said that. Um, 284 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: can you describe a little bit about how responsible he 285 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: was for what you described earlier where you say in general, 286 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: spiritualist theology of the afterlife was taking Swedenborgie in heaven 287 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: and hell and plopping it all into heaven. How responsible 288 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: for that idea was Andrew Jackson Davis And how did 289 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: he kind of frame it? How did he talk about 290 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: it in his writing? Oh? He was very very much 291 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: responsible for that in so many important ways. Obviously, other 292 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: people had to have the experiential when you're talking to 293 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: a dead person, if they're like, oh, I I'm on 294 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: the second run, but I think I'm going to make 295 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: it to the third round pretty soon because I've done 296 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: this in this and then you know, you needed that 297 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,239 Speaker 1: sort of reinforcement for his you know what I call 298 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: theological backbone to have worked. However, he was very like 299 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: like most mystics. He was infuriating, and that he claimed 300 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: to never have read anything, including Swedenborg. Nobody believes this, 301 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: but you know, the the idea that, well, if I 302 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: made this all of myself, I'm clothing not smart enough 303 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: to do that. So it must come from the spirits, right. Um. 304 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: So what he does he casts the whole afterlife. He 305 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: calls it the Summerland, and he himself makes many Swedenborgian 306 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: style trips to the afterlife, where he hangs out with 307 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: famous dead people with literary figures, people prognosticate on things 308 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: like the future of Prussia, the coming of the American 309 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: Civil War, and what he finds in the afterlife is 310 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: complete gender equality. He finds religious equality sort of let 311 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: me expand on that in just sec So everyone goes 312 00:23:53,720 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: to heaven and but they're segregated weirdly, uh, Andre tex 313 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: and Davis is writing, so they're like, you know, little 314 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: towns of twos and little towns of Hindus and little 315 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: towns of you know, Catholics and um. But because everybody 316 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: is improving, right, there's only one perfection, so everybody is 317 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: moving toward the same ultimate goal. So again, you're simultaneously 318 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: radically progressive in thinking that everyone in the entire universe, 319 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: across time and space goes to heaven. Super progressive. On 320 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: the other hand, you do then get to say, and 321 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: I am quoting and I'm physically making little bunny fingers 322 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: right now, the lower tribes and races unquote, um are 323 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: you know on the baby step rungs, right, So you 324 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,479 Speaker 1: include them, but it's not untouched by its own historical moment, right, 325 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: which just rampant with colonialism and yeah, racism, and so 326 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,719 Speaker 1: it's a step forward. I'm yeah, they are fantastic in 327 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: terms of that step forward, but it's not completely what 328 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: we would consider to be you know morally equivalence, and 329 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: that's something that we really are able to explore when 330 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: we see spiritualism through Sojourner Truth size And um, I'm 331 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: really loving I didn't you know understand before I started 332 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: this project to what extent Sojourner Truth was involved with spiritualism. 333 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: But some of the things that she notices and comments 334 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: on over the course of her life really really do 335 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: bring that to the four where she says, this is great, 336 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: but here are the limitations here? How far we here, so, 337 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: how far we've come here, so how far we still 338 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: have to go? Um? Absolutely, there were really a number 339 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: of African Americans who made it as mediums in part 340 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: because of the frankly racist belief that you know their people, 341 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: if you will, are are closer to a spiritual naivete 342 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: and therefore, you know, more easily able to access the afterlife. 343 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: So there were people in the underground Railroad, for example, 344 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: who were mediums in Quaker homes in New York. And 345 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: these women knew that they were sort of playing the 346 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: white people right, So simultaneously they were able to really 347 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: carbo an important niche for themselves and be appreciated. But 348 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: they also knew that this was the as the sort 349 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: of flip side of romanticizing. You know, their their own hair, 350 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: and you see the same thing so often, uh from 351 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: the beginning, but especially into the seventies with spiritualists channeling 352 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: Native spirit guides or mediums having spirit controls where it's 353 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: a romanticized Native nation, you know, a chief or a 354 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: young girl that kind of presents Native nations and and 355 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: you know, the Indian Wars in a kind of romanticized 356 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: and sentimentalized light through through those seances where it's usually 357 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,959 Speaker 1: almost always a white medium who is playing Indian in 358 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: that way. Absolutely, and that still continues there, it is, 359 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: it remains extraordinarily popular for current spiritualists have Native American um, 360 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: you know, spirit guides. Well, let's jump back to the beginning. 361 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: I loved what you said about the way that Andrew 362 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: Jackson Davis picked up and and uh and used what 363 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: the fox dishes were doing. But let's talk. Let's talk 364 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: a little bit about about Hydesville and what happened there 365 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: in um, not so much the details, but what what 366 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: was it about that particular experience, because you know, as 367 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: we've mentioned before, there were other kinds of trances and 368 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: mediumship that were happening before this, But what made what 369 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: happened in Hindsville explode and become a movement, you know, 370 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: go from kind of a neighbor neighborhood hullabaloo into uh 371 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: into this huge movement that grows into something global within 372 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: a couple of years. That is an excellent question. And 373 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: scholars do like to throw down about dating spiritualism to 374 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: the Fox sisters because phenomenologically there are multiple and they're 375 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: they're always women in trances, right, that is one of 376 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: the few cross cultural truisms, and that is clearly a 377 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: way for women to um, you know, find a way 378 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: to speak powerfully from the margins. So what you know, 379 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: what makes Hindsville important, right, It's it's a haunting, it's 380 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: a politic well, to be perfectly frank, it's their older sister, Leah. 381 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: She understands, she sees exactly the monetary value in this 382 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: from the minute it starts. She rewrites the script to 383 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: put her baby sisters at the center, which is really 384 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: not historically true or not provable at least, And she 385 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: takes them in and she puts them in the Rochester 386 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: shows and their wraps on in these these halls and 387 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: this concatenation of again a telegraphy. Right, so the Fox 388 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: sister did this very clunky um. The rap system was 389 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: like one for A, two for B took forever. And 390 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: but that's like a a thirteen year old version of 391 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: Morse code. And that's exactly what it was, was the 392 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: thirteen year old version of Marse's code. So this idea 393 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: of a telegraph to the dead with this combination of 394 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: a ongoing revelation, but not in a way that was 395 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: going to truly upset the you know, the Bible crowd 396 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: to set some of them. But you know, by and large, 397 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: there should be no particular conflict with being a Christian 398 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: and thinking that you can talk to you know, you're 399 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: deceased Uncle George right there. That's not you know, a 400 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: major logical hazard. So but Leah really saw the potential 401 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: in this and she just she put those girls on 402 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: the road immediately, she basically yeah, no, what's the nicer 403 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: word for this, as she hooked them up with P. T. Barnum. 404 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: Immediately they were putting a train to New York. She 405 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: was an organizer and she died a very very wealthy woman, 406 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: whereas both of her younger sisters were extremely miserable their 407 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: entire lives, and I had these really tragic, lonely deaths. 408 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: So there was this, you know, a perfect storm, if 409 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: you will, of these historical movements and then this really 410 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,239 Speaker 1: smart woman who saw how to capitalize. And there are 411 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: so many people who saw spiritualism that way from the 412 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: get go, where they see what's going on with promoting 413 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: and organizing big lectures and halls and demonstrations, and they 414 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: come on the scene doing the same thing. Not so 415 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: much from Andrew Jackson Davis's side with the theology and 416 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: the mysticism, but very much from the performance side and 417 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: the spectacle side. And Daniel Douglas Hume is maybe the 418 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: most successful of those. Can you talk about who he 419 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: was and what he did with the spectacle of spiritualism. 420 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: He is a very interesting man at He had a 421 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: somewhat difficult childhood and some of it is obscured to us. 422 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: So it appears that his mom did a disappearing act 423 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: when he was young, and he was imported from Edinburgh 424 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: to the United States where he was raised by an aunt. 425 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: And he had the good fortune, as did many successful mediums, 426 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: of being not only charismatic but extremely good looking and 427 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: the idea of these sort of spectacles or what's now 428 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: called physical mediumship that were then yeah, sometimes called materializations. Right. Uh, 429 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: that we're shows, right, rather than I'm just going to 430 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: sit here with you and tell you what you're you know, 431 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: your child who died of influenza is doing in the afterlife. 432 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: These were you know, as you know, full blown shows 433 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: with trumpets, things called the ports, which were gifts from 434 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: the afterworld, generally things like gloves and flowers that have 435 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: been PHOSPHORESQ. But m was unique in that he levitated 436 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: and I don't mean tables, and I don't mean trumpets, 437 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: I mean him. So he would somehow fully bodily rise 438 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: up off the ground and in what was indisputably his 439 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: most astonishing act. In I believe it was London, he 440 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: once flew out of one window across a street and 441 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: into another window. Fantastic and he attributed this to the spirit. Uh. Naturally, 442 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: this is the sort of shenanigans that's going to get 443 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: Houdini's attention. But I'm sort of pleased to say Hudini 444 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: couldn't replicate it. He could never figure out how he 445 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 1: did it. And along the way, uh, he makes a 446 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: lot of friends in high places that get him through 447 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: the doors that you might never expect someone from his 448 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: background to. Uh places, you would never expect someone like 449 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: him to go. Do you do you remember any of 450 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: those connections or our demonstrations some of the people that 451 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: he met. Oh. Yes, he is investigated by an earl 452 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: who is assigned his case essentially to see if you 453 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: can disprove it, and he cannot, so he ends up 454 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: sort of hobnopping with the Scottish and British upper crust. 455 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: The biography is tricky because a lot of it relies 456 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: on the the writings of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and 457 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: Doyle was such an avid spiritualist that he is thoroughly 458 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: blinded to any anything that might undercut its voracity. So, 459 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: according to Doyle, uh did he Holme never took a 460 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: penny in his life for his spiritualist Yeah, inquiries Doele 461 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: does say rather charmingly that of course he had to 462 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 1: take gifts, but it would have been ghost to refuse them, 463 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: so that should not be confused with money. But he 464 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: did end up in you know, these these upper circles 465 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: that actually enabled him to marry not one but two 466 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: Russian you know, sort of sub royalty people, and that 467 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: you know that that kept him more in the style 468 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: to which he wanted to become a past I love that, 469 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: thank you. Um, there was there was a before before 470 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: him gets back to the UK though, Um, there were 471 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: other American mediums that were taking the American style of 472 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: spiritualism to England. Um in the early eighteen fifties. Can 473 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: you talk about before human and and others like him 474 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: were you know, had the chance to hob nob with 475 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: the uppercrust. Can you talk about the general reception of 476 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: spiritualism in its American mode in the UK? That make 477 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: up a question? Um, Spiritualism was embraced in a great Britain. Uh, 478 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: and it was obviously again very much a class and 479 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: race disruptor. So you would have these One of the 480 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: pretenses of spiritualism is if you have a young woman 481 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: or a girl who can you know, expound on, you know, 482 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: these great points of philosophy and theology and science. That 483 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: she's obviously not smart enough to be able to make 484 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: this up. So therefore it is an indication of the 485 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: truth right that she is being embodied by you know, 486 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin or Francis Baker or whomever. So that had 487 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: a great appeal to sort of Victorian polar life. But 488 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: you would end up in these weird situations where you're employing, 489 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: you know, a woman who is not as um posh 490 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: right as the people for whom she is doing these readings, 491 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: and these women would, you know, sometimes live with these 492 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: folks for months on end, and it was it was 493 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: very popular as a well as entertainment in many ways. 494 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: In in England. Spiritualism actually really took off after the 495 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: First World War. So America, the Civil War too catalyze, 496 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 1: if you will, this need to talk to the dead, 497 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: and that simply didn't happen in Europe for another, yeah, 498 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: forty years, so it existed. But it's actual religiosity as 499 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: a very sort of strong base um that really is 500 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 1: an American phenomenon that, to the best of my knowledge, 501 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: did not translate well until they had had their own 502 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: catastrophic cultural experience to try to work their way through. 503 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 1: Can you talk about Emma Harding? Who was she and 504 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 1: what brought her to become a prominent medium? Emma Harding 505 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite mediums. In fact, she's she's 506 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: buried in Manchester, England, and I have been several hours 507 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: trooping around looking for her grave. I fear it's one 508 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: of the ones that has collapsed. But Emma, Yeah, came 509 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: to America. She was a musician, and she h became 510 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: a spiritualist medium, and then later she got involved with theosophy. 511 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: She married a publisher and avid spiritualist, and she was 512 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: well respected by basically everyone, which is rare in in 513 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: these this world. So Emma started off with doing trance lectors, 514 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: and she was very erudite and very articulate, and she 515 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: over time became what I consider to be probably still 516 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,479 Speaker 1: the most important historian of spiritualism. And she wrote this 517 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: massive compendium using primary sources, which how she collected all 518 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 1: of that in you know, the nineteenth century, I have 519 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: no idea, uh, and put it together in what sort 520 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,800 Speaker 1: of created a coherent narrative of spiritualism. So while it 521 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: is possible right very early on to say yes, I 522 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 1: thoroughly believe that everyone goes to heaven, and I thoroughly 523 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: believe that humanity is improving, and I thoroughly believe that 524 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: some day everybody will be perfect, it is not yet 525 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: possible to talk about an evolution of spiritualism, and Emma 526 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: made that happen. She also was not afraid too a 527 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: seed some points, right, So like Doyle never wants a 528 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: satord point if you you know, very clearly said look, 529 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 1: you know that fairy is made of cardboard. He was like, no, 530 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 1: it wasn't. It was a real fairy as a picture 531 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: of it, right, whereas Emma was like, yeah, you know 532 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: that was that was a little untoward that moment. And 533 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: but you know, you can't always rely on the spirits 534 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: to show up on any given day, so some people 535 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: change what you're gonna do. Yeah, that's great. Um. You 536 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: mentioned her her eighteen seventy book with the History of 537 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,919 Speaker 1: the Original Documents, which is so key. But you also 538 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: write a little bit about what she wrote in eighteen sixty. 539 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,399 Speaker 1: She she had been a medium on the New York 540 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: scene right in the eighteen fifties and done some circuit 541 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: lecturing across the United States. Can you talk about how 542 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: her writing in eighteen sixty with the Theology of Spiritualism 543 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 1: helped to synthesize the beliefs in the movement at that point. Yes, 544 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: So again this there's paradox at at the heart of 545 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: having a movement run by women who are not credentialed. Uh, 546 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: and that is that to some extent, what they have 547 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: to say is gauged by how it is not believable 548 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,439 Speaker 1: that they could have constructed it. So um in six 549 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: lectures on theology. She has a collective group of spirits 550 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: that speak to her about you know, big picture. So 551 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: it's not, uh, you know, a particular question about a 552 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: particular person. It's really more of a synthesized worldview. And 553 00:42:52,760 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: that was not generally thought of as something that she 554 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: was better educated than a lot of spiritualist mediums, but 555 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: that you know, she could have just produced on her own. 556 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: So that was really a landmark moment. And as I say, 557 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: she was not afraid to call out, you know, people 558 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: who were cheating, and that really helped her reputation to 559 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: be perfectly frank. So she was broadly, broadly respected and 560 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: crossed several divisions that other people could not. So when 561 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: people trying to smear her for you know, hanging out 562 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: with Pascal Beverly Randolph, who was a African American sex magician, 563 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: it didn't stick because her reputation was basically too strong 564 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: to you know, be besmirched. By these little whispers of 565 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 1: the same propriety or that impropriety. That said, there are 566 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: a couple of books that she published but she claims 567 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: not to be the author of that are still contested 568 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: as to whether or not she is the author, and 569 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: people I truly respect will throw down on both sides 570 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: of this question. So uh, yes, so I I just 571 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: I don't you know, the jury is still out on 572 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: that as far as I'm concerned. So why would she 573 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: write something and not put her name on it? Right? 574 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 1: She said a lot of shocking things. Why would she 575 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 1: back away from this particular shocking thing? Um? But other 576 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 1: people think now absolutely she she did not write it. 577 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: And you know there are these anonymous you know, and 578 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,840 Speaker 1: some pseudonyms like Louis. Uh you know, so who was 579 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 1: Louis is still alive question in some circles. Yeah. Um, 580 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: you mentioned the whispers about her relationship with Randolph Um. 581 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: But spiritually like opposition to spiritualism and mediumship and some 582 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: of the doctrines and things. Um, it could be as 583 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 1: as focused as that, but there were also some some 584 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 1: really big, kind of culture wide forces opposing spiritualism. Can 585 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about what some of those 586 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: kind of fights looked like. What were some of spiritualisms 587 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: antagonists and what kind of form did the opposition often 588 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: change of spiritualisms major antagonists was the New York Times, 589 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:39,399 Speaker 1: and it had decades long fun of poking, uh, you know, spiritualism. 590 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: And they would send reporters like this the Herald, right. Uh, 591 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,880 Speaker 1: they would send reporters to spiritualists summer camps, and the 592 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,879 Speaker 1: reporters would you know, send back these missives that they 593 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: were a little disappointed that the people were nice and 594 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,319 Speaker 1: they weren't like overtly kookie, but you know, it was 595 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: it was a you know, a punching bag, right. So 596 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: there are certain tone issues with the more sort of 597 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: learned Americans, if you will, But they were also uh, 598 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: certainly some hardcore Christians who thought that this looked demonic, 599 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: right that if you are if you have you know, 600 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 1: a a poor uh man. And most of the successful 601 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,719 Speaker 1: mediums were lower class or a young woman who has 602 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,919 Speaker 1: different voices speaking, you know, out of them, that looks 603 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,799 Speaker 1: like demon possession. So there was some pushback from more 604 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: sort of hardcore Christian groups, but mostly it was dismissed. Right, 605 00:46:53,800 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 1: It was sort of embarrassing rather than dangerous, and there 606 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 1: were there were events, and there were reasons why some 607 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: might dismiss spiritualism. Um, can you talk about how the 608 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 1: Fox sisters reacted when their relative Mrs Culver published an 609 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,280 Speaker 1: account of Maggie admitting to her that the raps were 610 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 1: staged or um the February investigation by the University of 611 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: Buffalo faculty, after which the professors, you know, they say 612 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: that the girls were making sounds with popping joints and 613 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,320 Speaker 1: kind of the same kind of thing that their relative 614 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 1: accused them of. Um, what effected did that kind of 615 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: early negative press have on spiritualism? Because this was an 616 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 1: one so the movement continues on. But what was the 617 00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: response to that among spiritualists? Response to that was largely 618 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:51,560 Speaker 1: what you see today in terms of what you truly 619 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,800 Speaker 1: wish to believe. You're really not going to hear anything 620 00:47:55,080 --> 00:48:02,320 Speaker 1: that opposes it. So the there are certain can undra 621 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: like you know again, and you still hear this today. 622 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: I was, I was just in lily Dale a couple 623 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,840 Speaker 1: of weeks ago, and this is remains a mantra for 624 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,759 Speaker 1: people who are caught cheating if you will that the 625 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 1: you know, the spirits don't always show up so you've 626 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 1: got to have something in your back pocket. Uh, and 627 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 1: that Alan Cardick once said that the existence of fake 628 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,280 Speaker 1: flowers does not disprove the existence of real ones. So 629 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:41,239 Speaker 1: the idea that because there are occasional cheaters, or that 630 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:46,879 Speaker 1: an actual medium occasionally cheats, is sort of easily incorporated 631 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,840 Speaker 1: into the world view and does very little for one's 632 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,440 Speaker 1: confirmation biased to be perfectly frank of what So, if 633 00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 1: you thought they were ridiculous to begin with, you continue 634 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,799 Speaker 1: to think they were ridiculous after the Buffalo investigations, and 635 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: if you thought they were the real deal, but you know, 636 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,759 Speaker 1: they were just kids putting this awkward position, so you know, 637 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: sometimes it got slippery. Then that's what you thought. It 638 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: was much clearer when later in life, you know, they 639 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 1: said themselves, you know, I've been faking, but absolutely nobody cared. 640 00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,799 Speaker 1: It was absolutely astonishing. Nobody cared. They're like, yeah, I 641 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,480 Speaker 1: don't really believe you. You're you're a poor thing. You're 642 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: like Maggie died terribly, so was all by herself, and 643 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: she was a ridge and alcoholic, and she had this 644 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: very miserable life of being put on the road and 645 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, potential marriage that may or may not have happened, 646 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:55,840 Speaker 1: and her in laws disavowing her, and you know, she 647 00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: she drank. The woman drank and they was like, well, 648 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,239 Speaker 1: she just needs money. Yeah, and then when she came back, 649 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,400 Speaker 1: she's like, no, no, I faked the faking it was 650 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:12,120 Speaker 1: again she needs money. So it just got eaten into 651 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: the system as an anomaly. And if you have a 652 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,960 Speaker 1: world view that says that the spirits can make mistakes, 653 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:29,040 Speaker 1: then people can make mistakes and they're not permanent, right, 654 00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:33,839 Speaker 1: We're it's it's a it's a flexible, forgiving world view 655 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: in many ways. One of the people who so interestingly 656 00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,960 Speaker 1: looks at the way that both people and spirits make 657 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: mistakes UM is John Edmonds UM. Judge John Edmonds, who 658 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,880 Speaker 1: was on the New York State Supreme Court UH, and 659 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 1: because of that position, was sometimes a punching bag, sometimes 660 00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,600 Speaker 1: a celebrity among spiritualists. Can you talk a little bit 661 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:04,399 Speaker 1: about who he was and especially his you've written about 662 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,440 Speaker 1: his sustained interest in exploring the primary theological conundrum of 663 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,080 Speaker 1: spiritualism as you addressed it through his inquiry into the 664 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: bottom rung of heaven. Um. Who was he and what 665 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: was the significance of that intellectual theological work that he 666 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:24,240 Speaker 1: was doing well. Judge Edmonds had a very fancy circle 667 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:29,920 Speaker 1: of spiritualists in Manhattan, and he and George T. Dexter 668 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:34,080 Speaker 1: produced a two volume book on spiritualism that was first 669 00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,600 Speaker 1: came out in eighteen fifty two. It went through numerous 670 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:45,479 Speaker 1: numerous printings, and it's a very singular source of being 671 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,160 Speaker 1: able to track what a circle does over many many 672 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:54,520 Speaker 1: years because he would actually add footnotes to a particular seances, 673 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,560 Speaker 1: so here he was talking to you know, this person 674 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,000 Speaker 1: and then they would you know, contact that person again 675 00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,360 Speaker 1: in these ensuing years, and then this material would accrete 676 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 1: in the footnotes. So you can really get this, uh, 677 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,560 Speaker 1: this narrative arc in a way that you can't with 678 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,600 Speaker 1: more sort of static publications. S Edmonds was very important 679 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: not only in New York, but he is also partly 680 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,359 Speaker 1: the reason that science has ever happened in the White 681 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:30,320 Speaker 1: House under the Lincoln administration. And he was good friends 682 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:35,200 Speaker 1: with you know, Senator Talmud, so he was central in 683 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:41,240 Speaker 1: bringing spiritualism to the political stage. Now as a person, 684 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: he was you know, a judge of actual criminal cases 685 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:50,840 Speaker 1: and he was also in charge of he was administrator 686 00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:56,520 Speaker 1: for New York State prisons which were abhorrent. So she 687 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,960 Speaker 1: has a sort of okay sational interest in what happens 688 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,239 Speaker 1: to criminals in the afterlife. And when I talk about 689 00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:12,279 Speaker 1: the central conundrum of spiritualism, the idea that everybody is 690 00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:17,279 Speaker 1: heading for heaven is very lovely and multicultural, but you 691 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,400 Speaker 1: do end up with this this question of what happens 692 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,600 Speaker 1: to bad people, and what happens to bad people is 693 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,600 Speaker 1: generally a very redemptive story, and these are the folks 694 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:33,319 Speaker 1: that Edmonds is interested in talking to. So when he 695 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:39,000 Speaker 1: meets a criminal in the afterlife through his medium, then 696 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,600 Speaker 1: the one of the first questions he actually has to 697 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,560 Speaker 1: ask is whether he is responsible for that person being hanged. 698 00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:55,200 Speaker 1: So the psychological effects right of being uh in this 699 00:53:55,320 --> 00:54:00,279 Speaker 1: position of adjudicating life and death. I think of Bill 700 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 1: Over into his you know, his his evenings right and 701 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:10,360 Speaker 1: his spirit circles, and he tracks several of these criminals 702 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:15,000 Speaker 1: over many years and many seances, and they're they're generally, 703 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:22,960 Speaker 1: not always, but generally fairly uplifting stories of redemption. So 704 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:30,279 Speaker 1: the bottom rung of heaven really resembles health, but it 705 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,960 Speaker 1: is one in which there's no administration. So the nasty 706 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:40,960 Speaker 1: character of the denizens of the lowest rung make this 707 00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:45,200 Speaker 1: a hellscape. They're awful to each other, They're physically awful 708 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:50,919 Speaker 1: to each other. They they torture animals, They repeatedly try 709 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,399 Speaker 1: to kill each other, but they're already dead. So it's 710 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:58,919 Speaker 1: just this protracted dying scenes that are going on constantly, 711 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:07,520 Speaker 1: and he hons in on those who want to be better, 712 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,920 Speaker 1: and he, oddly, in some senses, is in a position 713 00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,880 Speaker 1: to help them because he actually knows more about the 714 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:20,600 Speaker 1: afterlife than many of them do. So a crime in 715 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:26,600 Speaker 1: heaven is heavily heavily gendered. So women are you know, salacious, 716 00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:31,480 Speaker 1: they cheat on their husbands and um the worst of all, 717 00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:35,239 Speaker 1: and this this charge is so rampant that really makes 718 00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,640 Speaker 1: me wonder what was going on. Uh. They murdered children, 719 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:45,480 Speaker 1: their own children in particular. And men have you know, yeah, 720 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,600 Speaker 1: I have you well, you know much butcher crimes. So 721 00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:55,600 Speaker 1: they're you know, murderers and brigands and rapists and you know, 722 00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 1: generally thieves and scoundrels. So uh, the women are generally 723 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:13,239 Speaker 1: more um sympathetic, and he Uh so there's just one 724 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:17,840 Speaker 1: particular woman that he connects with, and she, you know, 725 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:23,640 Speaker 1: had the terrible, terrible taste to leave her husband to 726 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 1: go off with her lover, who of course turned out 727 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 1: to be a scoundrel, and he left her and she 728 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:34,600 Speaker 1: killed herself. So she is, you know, on the bottom 729 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,880 Speaker 1: rung of heaven. But she's obviously, you know, not a 730 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:42,360 Speaker 1: menace to society in any way, so she is able 731 00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 1: to be reformed. And the the story that this shapes 732 00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,479 Speaker 1: into is that she finds a kid, a little girl 733 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,880 Speaker 1: seven ish. It's entirely unclear whether the child is doing 734 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:03,840 Speaker 1: in this nasty, you know, apocalyptic heaven, but she rescues 735 00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,680 Speaker 1: this kid. She gets this kid away from these terrible 736 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:15,480 Speaker 1: bullies and horrible men and runs runs away from the 737 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:21,560 Speaker 1: society of evil. And over time, and you can track 738 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:26,640 Speaker 1: this through the footnotes, the woman repeatedly starts seeing signs 739 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,520 Speaker 1: that say, you know, go in this direction right, um, 740 00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,760 Speaker 1: sometimes their actual signs, and sometimes they're flames, right like 741 00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:37,240 Speaker 1: Moses in the desert. And she takes this kid and 742 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:41,280 Speaker 1: they have this arduous journey over this mountain, but so 743 00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:46,200 Speaker 1: they're not being you know, in this mutual punishment any longer, 744 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 1: but it's still difficult, and they eventually get to the 745 00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,440 Speaker 1: second round and she reports back that they're much happier 746 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:57,040 Speaker 1: and they're going to keep going, right, And so this 747 00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:04,320 Speaker 1: he is able to counsel these the dead and say, 748 00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, look around, where can you get away from 749 00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:13,040 Speaker 1: this chaos? Do you see anything that's beckoning you in 750 00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:17,200 Speaker 1: a particular direction, follow it, and you know, get back 751 00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,600 Speaker 1: in touch with me, telling me what happens. On the 752 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:26,280 Speaker 1: other hand, you have less sympathetic people, generally men who 753 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:31,560 Speaker 1: are punished by the memories of their crimes. So this 754 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:36,840 Speaker 1: is very swedenborgian um. And what happens in Swedenborg right, 755 00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,560 Speaker 1: there's no judging God, so God would not condemn you 756 00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,120 Speaker 1: to evil because God is good. So you condemn yourself. 757 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,000 Speaker 1: And you have these two memories, and one is the 758 00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,840 Speaker 1: normal memory that you think you have, right mind gets 759 00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,840 Speaker 1: worse all the time, all right. And then there's an 760 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:59,400 Speaker 1: actually perfect memory that well, when you die, gets stripped 761 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,760 Speaker 1: off of you, and you and an angel watch it 762 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:06,480 Speaker 1: like a future film. And after you see your entire 763 00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:10,480 Speaker 1: ethical disposition throughout the course of your life, you then 764 00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: know where you belong, and you will cast yourself into 765 00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:20,240 Speaker 1: hell as appropriate if you've been a bad person. And 766 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:24,200 Speaker 1: how again, very much resembles the first round of heaven. 767 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,920 Speaker 1: You know, there's no Catholic devil, you know, with a 768 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:33,360 Speaker 1: you know, tail and a trident hanging out in Swedenborg's hell, 769 00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,439 Speaker 1: people are just dreadful and they're dreadful to each other, 770 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:42,400 Speaker 1: and you're in this dreadful position for eternity. So but 771 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:49,160 Speaker 1: in this sort of reformed Swedenborgian, more progressive spiritualist cast, 772 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:54,000 Speaker 1: the these men are haunted by these memories of the 773 00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:58,680 Speaker 1: people that they have wronged, and they generally have to 774 00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:04,200 Speaker 1: make amends. So and I'm getting this from an amalgamation 775 01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:08,240 Speaker 1: of suiting of judgements and a couple of other places. 776 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:10,960 Speaker 1: But this would go along the lines of showing up 777 01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:15,920 Speaker 1: science and telling people that I stole your stuff, but 778 01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:19,320 Speaker 1: I buried it here and I'm terribly sorry, and this 779 01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,800 Speaker 1: is how you can find it. Um Or. There's a 780 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:28,720 Speaker 1: very clear case with Florence Marriott, who was a quite 781 01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:34,720 Speaker 1: popular British novelist. Her her daughter had died young, and 782 01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:39,000 Speaker 1: her daughter had gotten an abortion, and she was carrying 783 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,200 Speaker 1: the memory of this child around for years and years 784 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:45,160 Speaker 1: and years, and she makes amends by coming to a 785 01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,920 Speaker 1: seance and telling a young friend of hers not to 786 01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:52,680 Speaker 1: get an abortion and this rectifies her position, and then 787 01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,400 Speaker 1: she's able to let go of this memory and move on. 788 01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,120 Speaker 1: You mentioned in passing that one of the things that 789 01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:03,919 Speaker 1: Edmund's witnesses at this lowest ring of heaven is people 790 01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,720 Speaker 1: torturing animals, and I find that so interesting because one 791 01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,360 Speaker 1: of the stories that Edmunds tells about himself, I believe, UH, 792 01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,080 Speaker 1: and what what brought him to become a spiritualist is 793 01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 1: that when he was a kid, the spirit of Benjamin 794 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,040 Speaker 1: Franklin I think, if I'm remembering this right, watches him 795 01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:28,040 Speaker 1: stone and kill a cat and then decides that he's 796 01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:32,400 Speaker 1: going to guide Edmunds out of cruelty and into right living. 797 01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,880 Speaker 1: So it sounds like what he ends up doing in 798 01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,400 Speaker 1: these later seances is trying to offer to the spirits 799 01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,040 Speaker 1: what the spirit of Benjamin Franklin and his telling offered 800 01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,680 Speaker 1: to him in his life on earth. That's fascinating. Oh, 801 01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:49,640 Speaker 1: that is fascinating. That's a very interesting take on that. 802 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:55,240 Speaker 1: The role of pets in spiritualism continues to be fascinating. 803 01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,040 Speaker 1: I was just at lily Dale a couple of weeks ago. 804 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:02,920 Speaker 1: It's the oldest running spiritual community in the world, and UH. 805 01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:09,640 Speaker 1: Their emphasis on UH they have pet seances and a 806 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:14,760 Speaker 1: very extensive pet cemetery, which so the the idea that 807 01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:21,080 Speaker 1: your beloved animals continue with you through eternity. Personally, I 808 01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,640 Speaker 1: can think of no stronger argument, you know, for belief 809 01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,360 Speaker 1: in spiritualism than you know, to have my dog with 810 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:35,000 Speaker 1: me forever. So the but that's not an early spiritualist moment. 811 01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:39,720 Speaker 1: But the idea that bad people torture animals is there 812 01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:44,200 Speaker 1: right at the beginning. Um, so you did mention that 813 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,040 Speaker 1: Edmonds is one of the people who brings spiritualism to 814 01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,160 Speaker 1: the political stage. By eighteen fifty four, there's so much 815 01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:53,520 Speaker 1: interest in spiritualism. It's it's grown to the point where 816 01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:57,040 Speaker 1: there are fifteen thousand people who sign a petition to 817 01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:01,240 Speaker 1: the United States Senate to fund US Scientific Commission to 818 01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,400 Speaker 1: Investigate Spiritualism. Can you talk about how that came about 819 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:10,120 Speaker 1: and what the result was. So at that point you 820 01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:15,520 Speaker 1: actually have politicians worrying about the spiritualist vote, and so 821 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:21,080 Speaker 1: this is clearly a matter of some concern for a 822 01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:25,240 Speaker 1: lot of people. There are a number of commissions, you know, 823 01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:31,360 Speaker 1: the Saber Commission, uh different university commissions, but the Commission 824 01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:39,080 Speaker 1: to Study Spiritualism as a government project is really quite 825 01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:44,200 Speaker 1: extensive and you end up right. So there there are 826 01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,720 Speaker 1: a couple of forms that this this takes. So one 827 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,640 Speaker 1: is a series of councils where they would bring in 828 01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:58,080 Speaker 1: a popular medium. So um Cora Hatch, for example, was yeah, 829 01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:02,280 Speaker 1: allowed herself to be so objected to one of these, 830 01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:07,840 Speaker 1: and they would ask these questions trying to trick her, right, 831 01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:15,120 Speaker 1: And so there's this one commission where they asked your 832 01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:20,840 Speaker 1: questions like how do you parse the divinity of Jesus Christ, 833 01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:26,480 Speaker 1: both human and divine? And how did gyroscopes work? And 834 01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:31,760 Speaker 1: she answered these questions in a trance state to such 835 01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:37,760 Speaker 1: effect that the commission, which was you know, literally comprised 836 01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:42,680 Speaker 1: of like stodgy old military men, I was like, that 837 01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,760 Speaker 1: was impressive and in fact, and I am quoting one 838 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:49,880 Speaker 1: of them said I expected to be humbugged and was 839 01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:55,840 Speaker 1: not so. Uh. In in this manner, right would they 840 01:04:55,840 --> 01:05:00,840 Speaker 1: would test individual mediums. And then there was a rather 841 01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:07,160 Speaker 1: embarrassing moment in which well the Fox sisters Maggie and 842 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:14,760 Speaker 1: Kate were put on a ship with a bunch of spiritualists. 843 01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:18,720 Speaker 1: There was there was an island in the New York 844 01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:24,400 Speaker 1: Sound where they hanged criminals and there was a pirate, 845 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,920 Speaker 1: John Hicks, who was about to be hanged and the 846 01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:36,960 Speaker 1: so there's this floating seance basically that is surrounding this 847 01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:42,280 Speaker 1: island with the expectation that at the moment of this 848 01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:47,120 Speaker 1: this guy's death, that they would be able to communicate 849 01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:55,400 Speaker 1: with him. Well, embarrassingly enough, the spiritualists, much like graduate students, Um, 850 01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,200 Speaker 1: we're so excited about the free food and drink that 851 01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:02,960 Speaker 1: they completely missed the hanging and we're like busily chowing 852 01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:08,040 Speaker 1: down on the cucumber sandwiches and no communication whatsoever took place. 853 01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,800 Speaker 1: That's fantastic. Um. You mentioned Cora Hatch, and she's someone 854 01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:15,840 Speaker 1: I want to talk about a little bit more. She 855 01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:19,920 Speaker 1: was born course Scott. Can you talk about who she 856 01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:23,560 Speaker 1: was and what some of her early experiences with spirituals 857 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:27,040 Speaker 1: and were like, and then how she became so popular 858 01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:36,560 Speaker 1: and why so. Cora was arguably the most famous medium 859 01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:42,200 Speaker 1: of her day. And once again, there there is a 860 01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:47,200 Speaker 1: particular voyeurism with stage medium show that is absent in 861 01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:52,680 Speaker 1: sort of domestic seances. And Coral was very young, fifteen 862 01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:57,760 Speaker 1: when she started, and she was very beautiful, and every 863 01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:02,000 Speaker 1: single newspaper account of her just fulminates over her long 864 01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:06,640 Speaker 1: blonde curls, and she was always, um, you know, decked 865 01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:11,320 Speaker 1: out in a slightly racy outfit. And so what would 866 01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:16,840 Speaker 1: happen is you would you would have this you know, 867 01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:23,320 Speaker 1: blossom of youth and fragility who would then sort of faint, right, 868 01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:30,520 Speaker 1: So it was a real you know, verririistic aspect to this. 869 01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:35,480 Speaker 1: But then she would stand up and start expounding on um, 870 01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:42,640 Speaker 1: slavery and philosophy and theology and uh. And she would 871 01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:47,600 Speaker 1: command you know, these audiences of thousands and tell them 872 01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:50,080 Speaker 1: what they should be thinking about politics, what they should 873 01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:52,560 Speaker 1: be thinking about abolition, what they should be thinking about 874 01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:57,600 Speaker 1: women's rights. So this too is obviously very paradoxical, right, 875 01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:01,040 Speaker 1: that these these women had this astonishing effect on the 876 01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:03,400 Speaker 1: condition that it was understood that they were not the 877 01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:08,600 Speaker 1: ones speaking. So Cora, as I say, it was lovely 878 01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:15,400 Speaker 1: and um. She was able to you know, answer these 879 01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:21,320 Speaker 1: these very specific questions to the satisfaction of all in 880 01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:29,439 Speaker 1: very uncomfortable circumstances. So she was extremely popular. She did 881 01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:35,519 Speaker 1: close out. There was some she would say things that 882 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:37,960 Speaker 1: were you know, so scandalous at times that people are 883 01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:42,400 Speaker 1: like flee the lecture hall. Mostly about women's rights and 884 01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:45,240 Speaker 1: how everything's equal in the afterlife and how they should 885 01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:49,440 Speaker 1: be here. Uh so, yes she was. She was absolutely 886 01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:56,599 Speaker 1: magnificently popular. Corea too had a hard life though, and 887 01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:01,120 Speaker 1: she ended up marrying several times, to the point where 888 01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:06,759 Speaker 1: like tracking her name in different publications is tricky, And 889 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,559 Speaker 1: the most famous one was to her first husband, a 890 01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:18,559 Speaker 1: BF Hatch, and she was sixteen and he was, not 891 01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,200 Speaker 1: to put too fine a point on it, they a 892 01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:25,360 Speaker 1: bit of a bit of charlatan and something of a pampa. 893 01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:32,200 Speaker 1: So she divorced him and it was made a huge 894 01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:37,439 Speaker 1: media splash, enormous media splash that I have no doubt 895 01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,879 Speaker 1: whatsoever that he was physically abusive to her, that everything 896 01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:47,000 Speaker 1: seems to agree on this point. However, it became a 897 01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:52,880 Speaker 1: bit of a bally food so Emma Harding Britain reported 898 01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:57,439 Speaker 1: on this in a very you know, this pernicious. He 899 01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:01,200 Speaker 1: was forty, she was sixteen, right, a little little sketchy 900 01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:05,559 Speaker 1: um in this. You know, he was a predator and 901 01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:09,599 Speaker 1: he married her to exploit her and you know, take 902 01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:14,880 Speaker 1: her money. And it was you know, he was not 903 01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:17,559 Speaker 1: a good guy. I'm not excusing him in any way, 904 01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:21,200 Speaker 1: shape or form, but some of that is actually not true, 905 01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:23,880 Speaker 1: Like she kept all of her money. She had six 906 01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:27,880 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, which is an astonishing amount of money in 907 01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:31,200 Speaker 1: those days, and she kept three thousand of it in 908 01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:36,919 Speaker 1: the divorce and it was basically, you know, she divorced 909 01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:41,639 Speaker 1: him for maltreating her. But it got sort of played 910 01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:46,680 Speaker 1: out in the press as you know, Charlatan's among us 911 01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:52,000 Speaker 1: and the uh, you know, predatory men who will take 912 01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:56,680 Speaker 1: advantage of young talented mediums. Can you talk about what 913 01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:02,439 Speaker 1: the dynamics were of that moment in invest s gating spiritualism. 914 01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:09,320 Speaker 1: Investigating spiritualism was actually a bit of a signline for 915 01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:15,799 Speaker 1: a lot of people, and both sides had undercover investigators. 916 01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:20,840 Speaker 1: So you had a an entire series of doubters as 917 01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,760 Speaker 1: is you know, certainly the case with most of the 918 01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:29,720 Speaker 1: academic inquiries, and then you actually had the pro spiritualist folks. 919 01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:38,320 Speaker 1: So the American Society for Cyclical Research had private investigators 920 01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:43,559 Speaker 1: for years followed mediums around to see if they were legit, 921 01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:47,080 Speaker 1: and they were very invasive. So not only would they 922 01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:50,559 Speaker 1: show up as you know, sitters in your seance, but 923 01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,040 Speaker 1: they would like stock your home and make sure you 924 01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:56,439 Speaker 1: weren't stepping out on your husband or I mean they 925 01:11:56,479 --> 01:12:01,800 Speaker 1: were they were really invasive, and so both sides had 926 01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:12,120 Speaker 1: this real investment in seeing whose reputation would last. So 927 01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:22,200 Speaker 1: they're the debunkers, you know. Found Yeah difference. Uh, you 928 01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:31,720 Speaker 1: know that this was of wilful trickery and people in 929 01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:37,960 Speaker 1: mourning and that they're you know, psychological, you know, they're grieving, 930 01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:43,080 Speaker 1: made them vulnerable, and that these um, these people were 931 01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:46,719 Speaker 1: hucksters taking advantage of them. But on the other side, 932 01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:51,280 Speaker 1: there are actually people investigating because they wanted to protect 933 01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:56,240 Speaker 1: the reputation of spiritualism and they wanted to get out 934 01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:59,840 Speaker 1: ahead of any sort of saucy story that might come 935 01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:03,479 Speaker 1: out about one of their star mediums. So like William 936 01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:08,920 Speaker 1: James knew abounch of the paranormal Investigators, and he would, um, 937 01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:11,640 Speaker 1: you know, say you need to go check out, you know, 938 01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:14,400 Speaker 1: this person in Boston and make sure that you know 939 01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:17,400 Speaker 1: everything's on the up and up, because I'm going to 940 01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, put my reputation you know, behind her and 941 01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:23,760 Speaker 1: say I think she's the real deal and I need 942 01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:27,000 Speaker 1: to make sure that I'm not going to embarrass myself 943 01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:34,400 Speaker 1: down the line. M Yeah, that's great. Um. You also 944 01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:39,439 Speaker 1: write that in the years following the Civil War, after 945 01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,120 Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson Davis published I mean one of his many, 946 01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:46,519 Speaker 1: his many books, but after he publishes The Harbinger of Health. Um, 947 01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,680 Speaker 1: and and there are other developments as well, but that 948 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:51,800 Speaker 1: there's a new and voracious interest in the embodied experience 949 01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,400 Speaker 1: of living. And H. Davis and other mediums like Victoria 950 01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:59,879 Speaker 1: Woodhull and Cora hatch Uh who had been healing mediums 951 01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:04,599 Speaker 1: in the eighteen fifties, see that really grow. Um, what 952 01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:08,240 Speaker 1: was new about the interest in spiritualist healing in the 953 01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:14,519 Speaker 1: eight sixties and seventies. You have a physically wounded nation, 954 01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:26,120 Speaker 1: and there the American landscape is bizarrely conflicted about what 955 01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:31,120 Speaker 1: to do with these wounded soldiers. So, for example, you 956 01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:35,720 Speaker 1: could not become a freemason if you have had any amputations. 957 01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:40,439 Speaker 1: This is after the Civil War. It's like how many 958 01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:44,960 Speaker 1: people have amputations after the Civil War? Right? So, the 959 01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:50,200 Speaker 1: the idea that you would actually exclude these people, you know, 960 01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:54,320 Speaker 1: who are heroes wherever it is they come from because 961 01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:58,880 Speaker 1: of of some as was understood, physical defect was a 962 01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:04,360 Speaker 1: straordinary slap in the face. So this idea of what 963 01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:10,639 Speaker 1: constitutes wholeness and what constitutes health um. And you should 964 01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:13,639 Speaker 1: throw in Mary Baker Eddie into this picture, right, So 965 01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:21,080 Speaker 1: she's publishing during this time, and so really you're starting 966 01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:27,160 Speaker 1: to see this um argument right over whether the locus 967 01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:31,320 Speaker 1: of the body properly belongs to the medical establishment or 968 01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:36,479 Speaker 1: whether it properly belongs to religious claims. And the medical 969 01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:44,120 Speaker 1: establishment is by and large white male um degreed, but 970 01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:52,840 Speaker 1: gold impersonal and busy filling out forms. Whereas like so A. J. 971 01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:56,479 Speaker 1: Davis is a country doctor, right, he walks around and 972 01:15:56,600 --> 01:16:01,240 Speaker 1: he attends to children with chicken pow us and you know, 973 01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:06,280 Speaker 1: older people with arthritis, and he has a you just 974 01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:13,360 Speaker 1: much kinder rigment than a lot of the people who 975 01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:21,240 Speaker 1: are more pedigrade. So the whole idea that your health 976 01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:29,400 Speaker 1: is dependent on your spiritual well being certainly has been around, 977 01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:37,960 Speaker 1: you know, since the earth cold, but it became very 978 01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:41,839 Speaker 1: it came into focus and prominence and was published about 979 01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:46,559 Speaker 1: and the it becomes works into the sort of new 980 01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:51,880 Speaker 1: thought movement and the you know, the the power of 981 01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:55,200 Speaker 1: mind over matter and that you have it within yourself 982 01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:59,000 Speaker 1: to to heal, and that your physical well being is 983 01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:04,719 Speaker 1: completely tied to your spiritual well being. You know, really 984 01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:10,080 Speaker 1: coalesces after the Civil War, and yeah, it needs to 985 01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:17,840 Speaker 1: right that the country needed that at that time. Can 986 01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:21,040 Speaker 1: you say more this? This is fantastic because one of 987 01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:25,640 Speaker 1: the things you see is conflict between spiritualism and the 988 01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:29,960 Speaker 1: new discipline of neurology. We talked at the beginning about 989 01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:33,559 Speaker 1: mesmerism and animal magnetism and some spirit and soul and 990 01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:36,720 Speaker 1: mind stuff that was going on there with the human body. Um, 991 01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:40,080 Speaker 1: what's this new discipline of neurology and and Hammond who 992 01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:43,040 Speaker 1: is kind of leading that, Um, how does that come 993 01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:52,680 Speaker 1: into conflict with spiritualism over these questions? Well, from time immemorial, right, 994 01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:55,600 Speaker 1: the position of the interpreter is going to determine the 995 01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:58,479 Speaker 1: fate of the interpreted. Right. So if you have a 996 01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:03,759 Speaker 1: woman who is speaking in multiple voices, she if she's 997 01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:07,280 Speaker 1: you know, in control of it and is using that 998 01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:12,120 Speaker 1: to travel and make some money and literally how her 999 01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:17,400 Speaker 1: voice heard, then you know she's a successful medium, right. 1000 01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:21,320 Speaker 1: But if she's not in control of it, then she's possessed, 1001 01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:24,559 Speaker 1: right and should be you know, hanged as a witch, 1002 01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:30,240 Speaker 1: or she is mentally ill. So in the eighties, when 1003 01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:34,599 Speaker 1: you really see the rise of neurology and psychology as 1004 01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:39,599 Speaker 1: medical disciplines. Then they start, um, you know, edging into 1005 01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:44,160 Speaker 1: what has traditionally been religion's per view. And so when 1006 01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:49,559 Speaker 1: you have women speaking in multiple voices, then you know, 1007 01:18:50,120 --> 01:18:53,800 Speaker 1: traditionally you know, okay, are you a saint? Are you 1008 01:18:53,880 --> 01:19:00,800 Speaker 1: a witch? Or are you mad? And spiritualism provided, you know, 1009 01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:03,400 Speaker 1: sort of a subset of of the saint. Right, it 1010 01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:09,240 Speaker 1: provided a way to look at these women who were 1011 01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:14,439 Speaker 1: in control of this multiple personality and who were making 1012 01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:17,160 Speaker 1: a living doing it, who were seeing a lot of 1013 01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:19,600 Speaker 1: them saw the world right in a way that was 1014 01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:26,280 Speaker 1: unthinkable thirty years before. So and you know, so then 1015 01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:31,880 Speaker 1: science and medicine starts creeping into this territory and it 1016 01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:38,120 Speaker 1: pathologizes this behavior. And so you start seeing diagnoses of schizophrenia, 1017 01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:41,680 Speaker 1: and here I mean schizophrenia as in, um, you know, 1018 01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:48,720 Speaker 1: a personality disorder with multiple speaking subjects. Now, admittedly, not 1019 01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:53,120 Speaker 1: every person was in control of the speaking subjects. And 1020 01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:58,559 Speaker 1: if you look at the just the rosters of insane 1021 01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:02,479 Speaker 1: asylums in the night eighteenth century, the number of women 1022 01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:08,280 Speaker 1: who are in there for being spiritualists or shakers are 1023 01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:12,920 Speaker 1: extremely high. So the belief itself is pathologized, and then 1024 01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:21,400 Speaker 1: the actions are understood as evidence of these women being disordered. 1025 01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:26,720 Speaker 1: So this becomes a bit of an argument between these 1026 01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:31,920 Speaker 1: two camps, and the spiritualists do take on these these 1027 01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:36,040 Speaker 1: new pathologies, by which I mean they fight against them. 1028 01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:41,960 Speaker 1: And you know, so there are discussions of the idea 1029 01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,640 Speaker 1: of an unconscious, right, So in eighteen eighty it was 1030 01:20:44,680 --> 01:20:47,679 Speaker 1: not clear to everyone that you had an unconscious. That's 1031 01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:51,000 Speaker 1: that's a later construct that we all now think we 1032 01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:53,080 Speaker 1: have an unconscious in the way that I think I 1033 01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:57,840 Speaker 1: have a foot, right. So the whole idea that you 1034 01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:05,040 Speaker 1: could have this controlling subterranean force was spiritual were just 1035 01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:08,360 Speaker 1: against this. They were aghast at this as a concept 1036 01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:11,200 Speaker 1: that you know, so when you went into a trans state, 1037 01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:17,000 Speaker 1: you were reaching a higher venue, right, you were. You know, 1038 01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:20,160 Speaker 1: the dead aren't perfect, but they are elevated, right, So 1039 01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:27,719 Speaker 1: the directionality of a trans state is superior, right, it's upper, 1040 01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:33,000 Speaker 1: whereas you know, certainly the directionality of Freudian universe, right 1041 01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:37,080 Speaker 1: is always negative. Right. Your unconscious is where you know, 1042 01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:41,439 Speaker 1: you keep your monsters under the bed. And they saw 1043 01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:44,240 Speaker 1: this coming and they tried very hard to get out 1044 01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:47,800 Speaker 1: in front of it, and eventually they were not successful, 1045 01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:53,480 Speaker 1: but they did launch an actual campaign against the pathologizing 1046 01:21:53,720 --> 01:21:59,200 Speaker 1: of multiple people speaking m M. One of the other 1047 01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:02,880 Speaker 1: things we see starting in the eighteen seventies is UH, 1048 01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, is with Henry Steel Alcott and Emma Harding 1049 01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:10,640 Speaker 1: Britain and UH and Madame Blovotski and the founding of 1050 01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:15,559 Speaker 1: the Theosophical Society. Thinking about it from Emma's perspective, maybe 1051 01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:18,000 Speaker 1: you know she had been such a chronicle or and 1052 01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:22,839 Speaker 1: synthesizer of spiritualism. Um, what attracted her to this new 1053 01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:26,760 Speaker 1: tradition or discipline and what influenced did the founding of 1054 01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:33,800 Speaker 1: the Theosophical Society have on spiritualism within the American religious landscape. Well, 1055 01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:39,960 Speaker 1: Emma was at the initial eighteen seventy two party in 1056 01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:44,840 Speaker 1: New York that founded the Theosophical Society. And what the 1057 01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:51,559 Speaker 1: Theosophical Society and Madame Blevowski in particular proposed is that 1058 01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:57,160 Speaker 1: spiritualism was this is my phrasing obviously but too exoteric 1059 01:22:57,439 --> 01:23:02,960 Speaker 1: a right, That actual call to work requires initiation, it 1060 01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:08,320 Speaker 1: requires adepts, and it requires secrecy. So if you could, 1061 01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:15,160 Speaker 1: you know, talk to the dead, you were approaching something important, 1062 01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:18,479 Speaker 1: but you weren't there yet. So they actually set out 1063 01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:25,760 Speaker 1: to create a much more um esoteric as an actively 1064 01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:35,120 Speaker 1: secret and requiring gradations of initiation at that sort of 1065 01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:39,680 Speaker 1: spun off of some of the primary principles of spiritualism. 1066 01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:46,080 Speaker 1: So felling a Petro Noblatsky had started off, well, she 1067 01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:51,479 Speaker 1: was from Odessa, and she came by way of Egypt 1068 01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:55,439 Speaker 1: and Paris and all these interesting places to show up 1069 01:23:55,439 --> 01:24:01,920 Speaker 1: in New York. And she christened herself a countess, which 1070 01:24:02,200 --> 01:24:06,840 Speaker 1: is probably complete hogwash. And you know, I had people 1071 01:24:06,840 --> 01:24:11,600 Speaker 1: call her madam, and she initially she was a She 1072 01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:15,759 Speaker 1: was a character, My gracious she was. She was short 1073 01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:19,840 Speaker 1: and had blue blue blue eyes and kind of looked 1074 01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:26,759 Speaker 1: like a refrigerator and had a she smoked a hundred 1075 01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:30,679 Speaker 1: cigarettes today, so you can imagine what a fabulous voice 1076 01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:34,120 Speaker 1: she must have had. Um. And she had you know, 1077 01:24:35,040 --> 01:24:39,679 Speaker 1: gun undercover and drag with the Sufis in Egypt. And 1078 01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:44,960 Speaker 1: somehow she knew more about Parisian Front, you know, freemasonry 1079 01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:47,120 Speaker 1: than she should have been able to as a woman. 1080 01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:54,080 Speaker 1: And so she had all this this fascinating knowledge, and 1081 01:24:54,240 --> 01:24:58,800 Speaker 1: so she took the sort of basics of spirit communication 1082 01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:02,599 Speaker 1: and turning them on their heads. So she said, when 1083 01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:06,200 Speaker 1: you were talking to a spirit, you're not actually talking 1084 01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:13,320 Speaker 1: to a consciousness, You're talking to a energy residue. Right, 1085 01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:17,479 Speaker 1: So if so and so dies, then so and So's 1086 01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:21,680 Speaker 1: energy residue will linger on earth for a while, and 1087 01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:25,320 Speaker 1: when you contact them in a seance, you're only getting 1088 01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:33,240 Speaker 1: the appearance of actual communication. So she doesn't then a 1089 01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:40,280 Speaker 1: great spiritualism per se um. But she does try to 1090 01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:45,120 Speaker 1: flip the valance of talking with the dead. All right, 1091 01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:51,880 Speaker 1: it's too easy and it is um not the real 1092 01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:57,519 Speaker 1: deal for her. So this is appealing obviously, right. The 1093 01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,479 Speaker 1: secret societies are always appealing. You want to have some 1094 01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:03,000 Speaker 1: sort of knowledge that other people don't have, if it's 1095 01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:05,920 Speaker 1: you know, the whole point of having a secret is 1096 01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:09,160 Speaker 1: that you've got some sort of power, if only momentarily, 1097 01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:13,920 Speaker 1: you know, until that bubble bursts and then nobody cares. Right. So, 1098 01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:22,040 Speaker 1: so al was was interested in this more occult, esoteric 1099 01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:29,120 Speaker 1: initiatory practice. But she now, as one might say about Podenci, 1100 01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:33,000 Speaker 1: she worshiped with both hands. Right, So she never stopped 1101 01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:37,320 Speaker 1: believing that spiritualism actually contacted the dead in a very 1102 01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:42,720 Speaker 1: meaningful way. Um. But she didn't think that that was exclusive, 1103 01:26:44,800 --> 01:26:47,080 Speaker 1: you know. So she thought you could simultaneously be a 1104 01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:52,040 Speaker 1: theosophist and a spiritualist, and she was successful at that. Um. 1105 01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:55,439 Speaker 1: But it was it was quite the movement, right, Um. 1106 01:26:55,720 --> 01:27:00,559 Speaker 1: And it was also unlike spiritualism were you know, as 1107 01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:04,760 Speaker 1: we've discussed, it's very optimistic in so many ways. Uh, 1108 01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:11,600 Speaker 1: theosophy is paranoid. It's a massive conspiracy theory. So according 1109 01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:18,519 Speaker 1: to Blovotsky in her first iteration, she has these two periods. 1110 01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:21,320 Speaker 1: There's the so called Egyptian period and then the so 1111 01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:25,200 Speaker 1: called Buddhist period. But in the Egyptian period, which is 1112 01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:27,760 Speaker 1: when Emma was involved, and this was taking place in 1113 01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:31,760 Speaker 1: New York, she she writes ISOs n Veils, which is 1114 01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:38,720 Speaker 1: this massive two volume tome on how everybody in the 1115 01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:46,800 Speaker 1: world has always had access to some obscured truth. Again friendly, multicultural, 1116 01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:52,560 Speaker 1: clearly childless, spiritualism in so many ways. But then the 1117 01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:57,320 Speaker 1: forces of power have spent all millennia trying to keep 1118 01:27:57,360 --> 01:28:02,439 Speaker 1: you from it. So quite right, and so this is 1119 01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:07,160 Speaker 1: an enormous conspiracy theory. Um, I think still the greatest 1120 01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:11,080 Speaker 1: that America that's ever produced. And I include the Lizardman 1121 01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:16,920 Speaker 1: in that list. So uh, it has a different trajectory, right. 1122 01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:24,439 Speaker 1: It is not progressive or kind or healing at the 1123 01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:28,960 Speaker 1: core of it. It's it's much more about self transformation. 1124 01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:37,880 Speaker 1: It's much more about uh, secrecy and inner sanctum. M 1125 01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:42,280 Speaker 1: hm hmm. That's great. Um, we're headed towards our wrap up, 1126 01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:44,679 Speaker 1: but before we get there, could you say a little 1127 01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:49,360 Speaker 1: bit more about the American Society a Psychical Research, Uh, 1128 01:28:49,439 --> 01:28:52,400 Speaker 1: and it's founding in five and how it went on 1129 01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:56,439 Speaker 1: to relate to spiritualism and spiritualists as we're headed towards 1130 01:28:56,840 --> 01:29:02,280 Speaker 1: the end of the nineteenth century. Sure, so, the Society 1131 01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:07,040 Speaker 1: for Psychical Research was actually started in Cambridge, and it 1132 01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:14,479 Speaker 1: included on its roster every serious intellectual of eighty And 1133 01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:19,439 Speaker 1: it actually had a bunch of classics professors and Kind 1134 01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:24,480 Speaker 1: and Doyle and the founder of modern criminology, Jase R. Lombroso, 1135 01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:30,000 Speaker 1: and the guy who created underwater telegraphy are all over Lodge. 1136 01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:32,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was just a roster of 1137 01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:37,200 Speaker 1: who's who in the academic community. And it set out 1138 01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:45,960 Speaker 1: to question things like the existence of telepathy and the 1139 01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:53,519 Speaker 1: claims of spiritualism and things like um, uncanny dreams, right, 1140 01:29:53,680 --> 01:29:57,560 Speaker 1: and hauntings. So these were its main fous i and 1141 01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:01,000 Speaker 1: it walked into it with a pretty open attitude to 1142 01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:06,960 Speaker 1: be honest. So it would you have a case of 1143 01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:12,120 Speaker 1: somebody waking up in England knowing for some reason that 1144 01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:16,880 Speaker 1: there husband died overnight, right, and then two weeks later 1145 01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:20,160 Speaker 1: it shows up in the newspaper that this ship sank 1146 01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:24,479 Speaker 1: off of the coast of Australia. Right, So they would 1147 01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:28,679 Speaker 1: approach this it's like, okay, well you know one answer 1148 01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:33,600 Speaker 1: is that just is clear point, right. Another answer is 1149 01:30:33,880 --> 01:30:38,040 Speaker 1: that thought transference is possible. So the the idea that 1150 01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:49,880 Speaker 1: we have a physical, grounded material uh possibility of exchanging 1151 01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:56,320 Speaker 1: thoughts across distance. So it was not super natural, right, 1152 01:30:56,439 --> 01:31:01,479 Speaker 1: it was just not yet understood. So this kind of 1153 01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:06,439 Speaker 1: conversation went on for a very long time and Mark 1154 01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:12,280 Speaker 1: Twain participated. It was it was really quite the whole. Yeah, 1155 01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:15,439 Speaker 1: it was all star. They even got Darwin involved try 1156 01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:18,720 Speaker 1: and Darwin had no interest in any of this, but 1157 01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:22,400 Speaker 1: you know he went for a little while. Um, so 1158 01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:28,240 Speaker 1: there's an American offshoot that begins, and William James is 1159 01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:37,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's most famous, yeah, investigator, believer and James 1160 01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:41,880 Speaker 1: if you just read his psychology, right, so if you 1161 01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:45,960 Speaker 1: just take you know, say, his lectures on religion, he 1162 01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:54,800 Speaker 1: does not agree with what will become right, Certainly, the 1163 01:31:55,240 --> 01:31:57,680 Speaker 1: nature of the psyche is still at stake, right, And 1164 01:31:59,200 --> 01:32:05,400 Speaker 1: some people believe, like William James, that the psyche naturally 1165 01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:10,479 Speaker 1: points towards the good, and that humans you know, will 1166 01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:15,799 Speaker 1: not you know, morally good necessarily, that human nature points 1167 01:32:16,160 --> 01:32:22,120 Speaker 1: toward something greater than themselves, right, Whereas Freud is obviously 1168 01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:27,120 Speaker 1: going to say that everything refers to your interior life 1169 01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:32,519 Speaker 1: and that a lot of it is selfish. So the 1170 01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:38,599 Speaker 1: nature of human nature is at stake here. And James 1171 01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:46,800 Speaker 1: does not buy into spiritualism wholesale at all, but he 1172 01:32:47,280 --> 01:32:52,080 Speaker 1: does think that the unconscious can communicate with with spirits 1173 01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:58,320 Speaker 1: greater than they, and it's he finds, you know, his 1174 01:32:58,720 --> 01:33:02,439 Speaker 1: this one woman who you know, he sicks this detective 1175 01:33:02,479 --> 01:33:07,320 Speaker 1: on for years and she's just infallible. She's a perfect 1176 01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:11,439 Speaker 1: little middle class lady who you know, is you know, 1177 01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:13,880 Speaker 1: a good wife and lives in a cute little house 1178 01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:16,439 Speaker 1: and wears gloves and it is proper all the time. 1179 01:33:17,120 --> 01:33:22,240 Speaker 1: And he um, he calls her, you know, his his 1180 01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:28,000 Speaker 1: black Swan. Right, No, I'm sorry, not um anyway, Mrs Piper. 1181 01:33:28,080 --> 01:33:33,360 Speaker 1: So Mrs Piper is just perfect forever, and so he 1182 01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:38,080 Speaker 1: clearly believes in the powers of Mrs Piper, but he 1183 01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:43,879 Speaker 1: does not wholesale buy into, you know, everybody who claims 1184 01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:48,000 Speaker 1: to have these sort of supernatural powers. And so he 1185 01:33:48,040 --> 01:33:51,600 Speaker 1: thinks it's possible, but he also concedes that there's a 1186 01:33:51,800 --> 01:33:58,479 Speaker 1: lot of chicken ry going on. And but right, he's 1187 01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:02,800 Speaker 1: this amazing name and he uh, his his dad was 1188 01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:07,080 Speaker 1: the Swedenborgian mystic and obviously his his brother, you know, 1189 01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:09,840 Speaker 1: wrote The Bostonians, which makes fun of the spiritualists, you know, 1190 01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:17,639 Speaker 1: with great frequency. So he uh, they clearly come from 1191 01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:22,599 Speaker 1: this very religious family to which they reacted quite differently. Uh. 1192 01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:28,360 Speaker 1: But yees. So he gives a real intellectual impromoter to 1193 01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:34,000 Speaker 1: the the entire spiritualist cause. That's great. Um. As we 1194 01:34:34,120 --> 01:34:37,960 Speaker 1: head into that end of this century, you mentioned that 1195 01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:42,680 Speaker 1: theosophy has a much more paranoid attitude or mood to it. 1196 01:34:43,240 --> 01:34:49,720 Speaker 1: Um As spiritualism, especially in the United States, builds some institutions, 1197 01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:52,280 Speaker 1: tries to put together some organizations that will last, you know, 1198 01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:56,479 Speaker 1: after all the annual conventions, conventions, conventions, but no church. 1199 01:34:56,880 --> 01:34:59,400 Speaker 1: There are some groups that are that are formed. You 1200 01:34:59,479 --> 01:35:02,080 Speaker 1: mentioned the Dale earlier. There are some communities that are 1201 01:35:02,439 --> 01:35:07,320 Speaker 1: that are founded to last. Um to spiritualism maintain it's 1202 01:35:07,439 --> 01:35:10,880 Speaker 1: kind of optimism and spirit of progress at the end 1203 01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:17,880 Speaker 1: of the century. With the kind of organizations you're talking about, 1204 01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:21,040 Speaker 1: I would say absolutely, and I would say as it 1205 01:35:21,080 --> 01:35:27,679 Speaker 1: continues through today, Uh what you have? However, after World 1206 01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:32,879 Speaker 1: War One, first of all, the whole edifice is crumbling 1207 01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:38,439 Speaker 1: when everyone starts relying on materializations. Right, so when you're 1208 01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:42,599 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, a trumpet playing in eighteen fifty two, okay, 1209 01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:48,080 Speaker 1: that's fine. But when you're talking about manifesting multiple ghosts 1210 01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:51,519 Speaker 1: and full body while they run around and you know, 1211 01:35:51,880 --> 01:35:57,680 Speaker 1: do embarrassing colonialists things, um, then you were really you know, 1212 01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:02,800 Speaker 1: inviting Charlatan's into your home. And as people got sort 1213 01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:08,960 Speaker 1: of inured to spiritualism as a domestic form of aid 1214 01:36:09,080 --> 01:36:13,400 Speaker 1: with grieving, right, then they start demanding more and more showmanship. 1215 01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:20,680 Speaker 1: And this cycle of demand and showmanship, you know, just 1216 01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:24,360 Speaker 1: aid away. At the core of this is a religious 1217 01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:29,599 Speaker 1: belief and so it it morphs into things as various 1218 01:36:29,840 --> 01:36:36,960 Speaker 1: stage magic and obviously the advent of photography is very 1219 01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:41,040 Speaker 1: important spiritualism. And you know, then you start getting into 1220 01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:47,479 Speaker 1: the production of ectoplasm, and so it gets um more 1221 01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:56,360 Speaker 1: morphous and less. I disliked the word authentic, but heartfelt. However, 1222 01:36:56,520 --> 01:37:01,679 Speaker 1: the groups you're talking about, um, yes, absolutely, the Cassadaica community, 1223 01:37:01,720 --> 01:37:08,840 Speaker 1: the Lilydale community. Um. These these folks understood perhaps the 1224 01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:12,200 Speaker 1: single most important thing about spiritualism, and that is the 1225 01:37:12,479 --> 01:37:18,280 Speaker 1: vanguard of multiculturalism. Right. So the fact that diversity is 1226 01:37:18,320 --> 01:37:19,960 Speaker 1: one of the first words that comes out of my 1227 01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:22,759 Speaker 1: mouth in a class, I really do think is related 1228 01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:27,400 Speaker 1: directly to spiritualism. And so, of course what happens there 1229 01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:33,120 Speaker 1: as Americans learn more about Asian religions over the course 1230 01:37:33,160 --> 01:37:36,799 Speaker 1: of the century, particularly going to two wars with Buddhist 1231 01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:41,599 Speaker 1: countries and you know, bringing home war brides, and then 1232 01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:44,760 Speaker 1: you know, the hippies and the beats, you know, love Buddhism, 1233 01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:49,760 Speaker 1: and people start getting interested in karma and reincarnation that 1234 01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:54,599 Speaker 1: these get sort of melted. So new Age, if you will, 1235 01:37:55,520 --> 01:37:59,439 Speaker 1: is a concatination of these sorts of interests. Right, that 1236 01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:03,960 Speaker 1: things are improving, but it might be over multiple lifetimes, 1237 01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:09,439 Speaker 1: and there are ethical checks and balances like karma in 1238 01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:14,080 Speaker 1: ways that something did not exist in early spiritualism. And 1239 01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:21,439 Speaker 1: you know, how do you account for improvement across reincarnated lives? 1240 01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:25,439 Speaker 1: And you know, do you come back with a certain 1241 01:38:25,680 --> 01:38:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, squad of people. Right? Is there such a 1242 01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:32,960 Speaker 1: thing as true love? How does it manifest over multiple lifetimes? 1243 01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:38,719 Speaker 1: So these all kind of work together over the course 1244 01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:44,240 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century to create a modern spiritualism which 1245 01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:48,880 Speaker 1: is still very very invested in multiculturalism and in the 1246 01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:53,360 Speaker 1: idea that there is no hell and that God does 1247 01:38:53,400 --> 01:38:57,439 Speaker 1: not divide part of the world and condemn them, but 1248 01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:00,840 Speaker 1: rather that everyone is on the same path, and that 1249 01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:06,000 Speaker 1: progress might not be evidence in this particular moment, but 1250 01:39:06,160 --> 01:39:10,760 Speaker 1: that it is inevitable. Mm hm m hm. Can you 1251 01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:14,240 Speaker 1: extend that thought just a bit, because at the end 1252 01:39:14,280 --> 01:39:16,880 Speaker 1: of your book you write that spiritualism's main contribution is 1253 01:39:16,960 --> 01:39:18,600 Speaker 1: in the field of ethics, and some of what you 1254 01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:21,120 Speaker 1: just said really addresses that. Um. But how do you 1255 01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:28,560 Speaker 1: describe that contribution of spiritualism to ethics? Um? And is 1256 01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:30,280 Speaker 1: what you just said the main way we can see 1257 01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:33,760 Speaker 1: it's influence today? Are there any other places where spiritualism's 1258 01:39:33,800 --> 01:39:41,040 Speaker 1: contribution to ethics really still appears in American life? I 1259 01:39:43,120 --> 01:39:47,800 Speaker 1: completely think that spiritualism's primary contribution is to ethics, and 1260 01:39:48,120 --> 01:39:51,599 Speaker 1: it is to the dismantling of a duality of heaven 1261 01:39:51,680 --> 01:39:56,720 Speaker 1: and health, and to the relegating of all of your 1262 01:39:56,760 --> 01:40:00,280 Speaker 1: neighbors who are not exactly like you to hell. So 1263 01:40:00,800 --> 01:40:02,960 Speaker 1: I tea to a class and world religions we just 1264 01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:05,680 Speaker 1: met yesterday, and they said, you know, I presume that 1265 01:40:05,800 --> 01:40:08,800 Speaker 1: there is no one in this room who would look 1266 01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:11,800 Speaker 1: around at your fellow students to say, I'm sorry, dude, 1267 01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:14,040 Speaker 1: you're really you know, you're a nice, interesting person, but 1268 01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:18,240 Speaker 1: you're going to hell, right, And that of course there 1269 01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:21,439 Speaker 1: are people who still believe that, and there are many 1270 01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:25,920 Speaker 1: hardcore people still believe that, but it is not the norm, right, 1271 01:40:26,240 --> 01:40:30,400 Speaker 1: and it certainly was before Spiritualist came Spiritualism came on stage. 1272 01:40:31,120 --> 01:40:35,680 Speaker 1: There were obviously there were other people, um who you know, 1273 01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:42,479 Speaker 1: didn't actively believe in a hell, the Unitarians, the universalists, right, 1274 01:40:42,560 --> 01:40:46,880 Speaker 1: everyone was going you know, to heaven want universalist smith um. 1275 01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:56,120 Speaker 1: But as a mainstream, loud, splashy movement, Spiritualism really was 1276 01:40:56,680 --> 01:41:04,000 Speaker 1: a driving force behind nascent multiculturalism. And I think that 1277 01:41:04,439 --> 01:41:08,880 Speaker 1: that is its lasting contribution. And when you take things 1278 01:41:09,160 --> 01:41:14,720 Speaker 1: like you know, exclusivity of salvation, right, it's like, well, 1279 01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:17,639 Speaker 1: you know, my team is right and your team is wrong. 1280 01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:20,040 Speaker 1: And then we're gonna, you know, have this you know, 1281 01:41:20,600 --> 01:41:24,680 Speaker 1: ghastly battle, and then you're all going to lose. Right 1282 01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:29,639 Speaker 1: that that that apocalyptic sort of thinking, that binary sort 1283 01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:34,240 Speaker 1: of thinking accounts for so much of you know, historical 1284 01:41:34,320 --> 01:41:39,280 Speaker 1: world ills and for people feeling that they are righteous 1285 01:41:39,640 --> 01:41:43,439 Speaker 1: right in their belief in their exclusive truth claim. And 1286 01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:47,080 Speaker 1: spiritualist just takes that and dismantles it right, just snaps 1287 01:41:47,160 --> 01:41:53,679 Speaker 1: that apocalyptic binary and so gradual improvement with no judgment 1288 01:41:54,000 --> 01:42:00,760 Speaker 1: and no losers, uh is how I would characterize you know, 1289 01:42:02,479 --> 01:42:13,320 Speaker 1: vast majority of college students. I'm happy to say, Hey, folks, 1290 01:42:13,479 --> 01:42:16,639 Speaker 1: it's Aaron here. I hope today's interview helped you deepen 1291 01:42:16,720 --> 01:42:20,360 Speaker 1: your understanding of everything involved in the world of spiritualism. 1292 01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:23,519 Speaker 1: But we're not done yet. We have more interviews to 1293 01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:26,320 Speaker 1: share with you, so stick around after this brief sponsor 1294 01:42:26,439 --> 01:42:37,280 Speaker 1: break to hear a preview of next week's interview. Next 1295 01:42:37,360 --> 01:42:42,000 Speaker 1: time on obscured. Obviously, comparing the eighteen fifties or the 1296 01:42:42,040 --> 01:42:45,439 Speaker 1: eighteen seventies with the nine twenties. So much it changed 1297 01:42:45,640 --> 01:42:51,040 Speaker 1: across the turn of that long nineteenth century, but so 1298 01:42:51,240 --> 01:42:55,560 Speaker 1: much hadn't changed. World War One decimated Europe with a 1299 01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:59,439 Speaker 1: kind of violence and carnage never seen before the new 1300 01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:02,879 Speaker 1: twentieth century had invented new weapons of war, but offered 1301 01:43:02,920 --> 01:43:06,800 Speaker 1: a little new to help survivors rapple or cope with 1302 01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:11,200 Speaker 1: the aftermath. People were and are still asking, how kind 1303 01:43:11,240 --> 01:43:13,760 Speaker 1: of dead speak to the living as something other than 1304 01:43:13,840 --> 01:43:18,160 Speaker 1: the haunting, seating presence of absence. The resurgence is real. 1305 01:43:18,520 --> 01:43:23,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's a different resurgence, but I mean I'm now, 1306 01:43:23,280 --> 01:43:27,479 Speaker 1: I'm now in thees and Thomas Edison hits the press 1307 01:43:28,880 --> 01:43:31,120 Speaker 1: with the news that he is building an apparatus to 1308 01:43:31,880 --> 01:43:35,120 Speaker 1: contact the dead, and all of the press is framing 1309 01:43:35,160 --> 01:43:37,360 Speaker 1: it at the time in New York Times to Scientific 1310 01:43:37,400 --> 01:43:40,280 Speaker 1: America as a new resurgence and spiritualism after the war. 1311 01:43:56,760 --> 01:43:59,600 Speaker 1: A Lot Obscured was created by me Aaron Manky and 1312 01:43:59,680 --> 01:44:03,000 Speaker 1: produce by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh Thane in 1313 01:44:03,120 --> 01:44:06,400 Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing for this 1314 01:44:06,520 --> 01:44:08,680 Speaker 1: season is all the work of my right hand man, 1315 01:44:08,840 --> 01:44:12,040 Speaker 1: Carl Nellis, and the brilliant Chad Lawson composed the brand 1316 01:44:12,080 --> 01:44:16,599 Speaker 1: new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, source material 1317 01:44:16,840 --> 01:44:19,960 Speaker 1: and links to our other shows over at History unobscured 1318 01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:32,320 Speaker 1: dot com and until next time. Thanks for listening. Unobscured 1319 01:44:32,360 --> 01:44:34,320 Speaker 1: as a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minkey. 1320 01:44:34,600 --> 01:44:36,599 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit i heeart 1321 01:44:36,680 --> 01:44:39,040 Speaker 1: radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 1322 01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:39,719 Speaker 1: favorite shows.