1 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: From me Theators World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. 2 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 2: This is Col's We Can Review with Ryan cal Callahan. 3 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:22,240 Speaker 1: Now here's Cal. Hey there, Cal's WEE Can Review fans. 4 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: Welcome to this week's special drop of the Cows we 5 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Can Review podcast where we get to dig a little 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: deeper on you know, the topic du jour, which is 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: the fancy way of saying the next next fire that 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: we got to address with me as always is is 9 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: Jordan Siller's. Jordan has been researching and writing his butt 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: off and helping out in a million different ways and 11 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: deserves a ton of credit here. But our special guest 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: is Kip Adams of the National Deer Alliance. Kip is 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: the chief conservation officer for n d A. Kip, thank 14 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Can you just tell 15 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: us real briefly for those who aren't familiar, and just 16 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: so you know, it's a good opportunity because we have 17 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: a ton of people who write in and say what 18 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: conservation groups should I join? I always tell them to 19 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: figure it out for themselves. I'll provide the information. But 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: you're an adult, so you got to you gotta make 21 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: make the decision ultimately, So we're empowering people the hard way. So, uh, 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: for those unaware, Chief Conservation Officer at National Deer Alliance 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: is going to tell you what areas the NDA focuses 24 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: on and if those things are interesting to you, you 25 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: should get involved, and we'll tell you back at the 26 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: end of the show how exactly to get involved. And 27 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: then we're going to talk about this topic, which if 28 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: you recall the first time we talked about this, I 29 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: was reading it right here on the podcast. I just said, 30 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: there is no possible way this is true. But it 31 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: is house built three four six ' two in Oklahoma. 32 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: The Chronic Wasting Disease Genetic Improvement Act, which by the way, 33 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: had just passed the full Oklahoma legislature is on Governor 34 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: Kevin Stitt's desk as of the first of the month here. 35 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: So we're going to get more into that in depth, 36 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: I hope. And then but first let's hear about keep 37 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: your role at NDA, as well as again what area's 38 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: NDA focuses on. For those who want to learn more, 39 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: sure well. 40 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 3: The National Dear Association as a national wildlife conservation organization 41 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 3: that specializes in education. Our mission is to ensure the 42 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 3: future of wild deer, wildlife, habitat and hunting and the 43 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 3: wild deer part of that is very important to us 44 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: and very critical to the conversation we're having here today. 45 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 3: And I'd like to say that nobody fights harder for 46 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: deer hunters other than we do. We have members all states, 47 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 3: all provinces, in several countries in large part because they 48 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 3: know we fight for hunters rights and they want the 49 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 3: information from an educational standpoint that we're able to share 50 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: with them. Our big areas that we work in are 51 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: are certainly the conservation in but you know, we'd like 52 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 3: to take information from the academic institutions and what managers 53 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 3: have out there and put it into a format that 54 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: you know, that every hunter can understand. So we teach 55 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 3: people about deer, how deer see here, what they eat, 56 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: how they move through the landscape. We're involved with policy. 57 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 3: Most hunters, as you're keenly aware, have no idea how 58 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: many bills are proposed each year that would be really 59 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 3: really bad for hunting and for wildlife if they pass. 60 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: So we have an advocacy arm to make sure that 61 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 3: we're supporting hunter's rates, you know, on good bills and 62 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 3: opposing those those bad ones. We do a bunch of teaching. 63 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 3: We have a Deer Steward program to to allow people 64 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 3: to learn more about deer. We spend a bunch of 65 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 3: time teaching people how to enhance habitat for deer. Habitat 66 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 3: is where it's at, to make sure that there's enough 67 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: food and cover for deer and other wildlife species. And 68 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 3: we have a big public lands initiative. We're not in 69 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 3: a position where we buy more public land, but we 70 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 3: are in a position where we can take public land 71 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 3: that we already have that's open to hunters and make 72 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: it better for hunting by enhancing that wildlife habitat and 73 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 3: you know, and improving some access and allowing people to 74 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 3: be able to access it and hunt it. So the 75 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 3: final thing that we get involved with is from this 76 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 3: is under our conservation umbrellas from the disease end. And 77 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 3: we believe that there is no single issue that has 78 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 3: a greater threat to the future of wild deer herds 79 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 3: or are hunting opportunities than than chronic waste and disease. 80 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 3: And so we spend a bunch of time uh educating 81 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 3: hunters about it, working with our state and federal officials, 82 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 3: you know, to make sure we have good surveillance programs 83 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 3: and in monetoring efforts and uh and being able to 84 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 3: support research so that we can learn all we can 85 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 3: to help beat this terrible disease. So from those perspectives, 86 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 3: you take the educational aspect of what we do, the 87 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 3: policy and and the disease end and uh, those three 88 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 3: things are what's landed me here. You know, getting to 89 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 3: have a good conversation with you today. 90 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: Sounds like a very interesting job and lots lots of 91 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: good things that happen on that make it a fulfilling one. 92 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: What uh, what's it? What's the chief conservation officer do? 93 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 3: I'm a wildlife biologist and so trained in biology, and 94 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: I oversee our conservation program So all of those different 95 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 3: pieces that I just talked about we do. I get 96 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 3: my hand a little bit of all of them. So 97 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 3: I get to help oversee, you know, the research that 98 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 3: we're involved with. I really enjoy the educational programs that 99 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 3: we do, so I get to do a fair amount 100 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: of teaching. I get to help develop our educational programs, 101 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 3: you know, whether that be something you know, an in 102 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 3: person class or an online class. I get to get 103 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: to oversee what we do from a public land standpoint, 104 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 3: and then get to help our policy folks out as well. 105 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 3: So it's nice to have my hand and a bunch 106 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 3: of different things like that, particularly given you know how 107 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 3: they're all intertwined to affect our you know, our deer 108 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 3: and other wildlife species and uh and most notably you know, 109 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: are hunting opportunities for them. 110 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: So it sounds like you maybe not uniquely positioned, but 111 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: certainly in a small group of people who are positioned 112 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: uh in a way to tackle what Jordan has in 113 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: store for us today, which is uh, this inner resting 114 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: situation in Oklahoma. And again my perspective on things, my 115 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: armchair expertise. When I read HB three four six two 116 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: in the state of Oklahoma, I just I kind of 117 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: laughed because I thought, there's no way that this is possible. 118 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: This and Jordan and Kit please jump in here and 119 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: make sure I'm not totally getting this wrong. But there's 120 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: an idea, and it's kind of in the name here 121 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: Chronic Wasting Disease Genetic Improvement Act. There's an idea that 122 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: through selective breeding of captive white tails, we can genetically 123 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: improve the herd in captivity. That could then be released 124 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: onto the landscape, and those genetic improvements, which would be 125 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:03,679 Speaker 1: a resistance to chronic wasting disease as an example, would 126 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: then be distributed through the wild herd. Now, one thing 127 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: that will come back to is it's specific to Oklahoma, 128 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: which is another bizarre part of this to me, because 129 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: once you release it onto the landscape, you have no 130 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: control where these deer go unless Oklahoma deer are special 131 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: and they know where the Oklahoma line stops, and they 132 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: know what a non resident deer smells like, and they 133 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: don't interact with them. This is something that is bound 134 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: to go beyond the state of Oklahoma. This idea comes 135 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: from another livestock industry, the sheep domestic sheep industry. There's 136 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: a cousin disease called scrape eaes in domestic sheep that 137 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: the sheep industry has been working on for a really 138 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: long time. They have found success through finding individual animals 139 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: with some sort of resistance to this disease and selectively 140 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: breeding for those traits over decades to strengthen the herd 141 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: and limit the prevalence of scrapies in domestic sheep. And 142 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: I say idea because from what I know and I'm 143 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: dying to get into this with you, Kiap. It's theory 144 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: versus fact from what I know. So, Jordan, do you 145 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: want to jump in here again? Great article? Can we 146 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: breed our way out of CWD? Oklahoma wants to try 147 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 1: at the meat eater dot com. You've done a bunch 148 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: of research here. Do you want to tee us up 149 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: or help fill in the gaps there? Before we get 150 00:09:59,280 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: into it. 151 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 2: With yeah, I think a couple of things are worth 152 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: pointing out. The first is that this would be a 153 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: first a type of this program in the country, So 154 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: Oklahoma would be the first state to introduce a program 155 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: like this. Also, right now, the deer breeders can sell 156 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 2: deer and move them to high fence operations. Right so, 157 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: high fence a high fence hunting ranch are the only 158 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 2: kind of outfits that they can move their deer to. 159 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 2: This bill would allow them to sell deer to anyone. 160 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 2: Right so, whether you have a high fence operation or 161 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 2: whether you're just you know, a landowner with a couple 162 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: hundred acres. This this bill would let you ship in 163 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: deer from one of these facilities that have this gene 164 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: that is resistant to C deput And I think one 165 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 2: one good place to start here for Kit might be 166 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: to talk a bit about when we say a deer 167 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: is resistant to CWD, what do we mean by that? 168 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: Because I think once you start to think about what 169 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: that actually means, you realize there's a pretty broad range 170 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: of possibilities that that that statement could mean. So yeah, 171 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: and I know, and I interviewed Kip for this article, 172 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 2: and I asked him this question, and I want this 173 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: audience also to hear what he has to say on that. 174 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: Awesome. Well let's start there, Kip, please, all right. 175 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 3: I think that when when people who aren't familiar with 176 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 3: this here a CWD resistant gene, that sounds like it 177 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 3: means that deer that have this gene can't get the disease, 178 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: that you know that they're resistant to the disease. And 179 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 3: the facts are very clear that that is not true. 180 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 3: CWD is one hundred percent fatal to all deer. That 181 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 3: they have never identified a deer that would not die 182 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 3: from the disease. So, starting right off the back, to 183 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 3: claim that oh, yeah, these deer are resistant and they 184 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 3: can breed with other deer to make them resistant just 185 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: simply is not true. Every single one of these deer 186 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 3: will still get the disease and still die from it. 187 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 3: There is some data to suggest yeah, they may live 188 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 3: a little bit longer, you know, in the terms of 189 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 3: a few months longer, but even that isn't really clear. 190 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: But just just to clear the tables right off the bat, 191 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: all deer will get this disease, and all deer that 192 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 3: can get it, and all deer that will die from it. 193 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 3: So this is not making deer not susceptible to it. 194 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 4: And I guess to say, like the testing and the data, 195 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 4: how do we get to a point where we can 196 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 4: look at a deer and say, well, that one has 197 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 4: the gene that's going to make it last longer than 198 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 4: the next one. 199 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 3: Well, their research can predict that at about eighty percent 200 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 3: certainty whether deer have this certain trait or the certain 201 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 3: you know within their genotype. You know, your genes are 202 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 3: different than mine or different from Jordan's. We can do 203 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 3: genetic testing with us to see, you know, how similarly 204 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: we are or how different we are, or how closely 205 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 3: we're related. So it's a it's testing like that that 206 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: they can use to say, oh, okay, what different traits 207 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 3: or genes are these deer carrying? They have identified a 208 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 3: specific gene that they teut as. Oh yeah, this is 209 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: what makes deer more resistant to this and more being 210 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 3: the key word there, you know. So those are the 211 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 3: deer that, yeah, do live a few extra months, and 212 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 3: those are the ones that they want to breed with 213 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 3: others too, I guess, as a way to try to 214 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 3: get around this disease. But that testing is pretty uniform 215 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: and so they're able to see, you know, the different 216 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 3: genetic traits that these animals have. 217 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: Boy, there's so much to cover here. So my gut 218 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: reaction to this bill, right, because like I kind of 219 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: covered in my long winded intro, is if you're talking 220 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: about putting a captive servid out on even private property, 221 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: which most Oklahoma is private property, but it's a low 222 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: fence situation, it just becomes public wildlife at that point. 223 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: So where I get confused, is, I guess the short, short, 224 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: short question, right is how is it legal? We have 225 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: an association, a national association of Fish and wildlife agencies. 226 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: Is there a system in place where all the surrounding 227 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: states can step in and say, well, you know, this 228 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: decision goes beyond the borders of Oklahoma and our management 229 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: styles or our science doesn't support this or agree with this. 230 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: So that's was my gut reaction is I'm like, Okay, well, 231 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: there's got to be some mechanism in place that can 232 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: prevent a state from making a decision of potentially impacting, 233 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: you know, the very real monetary investments of other states, 234 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: the budgets, the whole system of wildlife management that again 235 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: a deer doesn't recognize when it moves from one management 236 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: region to the next. 237 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, in this case, there's not because state oversee, you know, 238 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 3: the state owns those are the wildlife you know, our 239 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 3: North American model gives the you know, trust that resource 240 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 3: to the state. So and every state then is able 241 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 3: to write laws or dictate how they will manage that. 242 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: So there's not federal oversight there. And you know, and 243 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: so for this case, you know, Oklahoma, this the state 244 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 3: wilife agency can choose what they want to do. It's 245 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 3: very different from what they do in Texas, very different 246 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: from what they do in Arkansas, my home state of Pennsylvania, 247 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: you know, Montana. Everybody tends to be a little different 248 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 3: with this. And in this case, if this passes in Oklahoma, 249 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 3: then it would be legal to take these captive deer 250 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: and restock them. And one point we should mention here too, 251 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 3: that is, you know, the state wildlife director ultimately has, 252 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 3: in theory, you know, the final say, and hey, do 253 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 3: these things happen or not. You've covered this many times 254 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 3: and you know there's a whole lot of politics that 255 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 3: go into decisions made at some of those state agencies. 256 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 3: You know, Unfortunately it's not just following the science. Well, 257 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: this just so happens in Oklahoma right now that you 258 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: know the legislator's pushing this bill. There's some deer breeders 259 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: on the legislature. The Board of Commissioners that oversees the 260 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 3: Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation contains some deer breeders. And 261 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation, which is a fantastics 262 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 3: date wildlife agency, is without an executive director. So you know, 263 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 3: the person that is highest in that agency, you know 264 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 3: that can help thwart this that position is currently vacant, 265 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 3: so that you know that definitely has a play here 266 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 3: in how this thing may be pasted in Oklahoma. And 267 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 3: if so, why they legally could take take these captive 268 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 3: deer and put them out and mix them with wild deer. 269 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 3: You know even though at some point you're right, they 270 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 3: could cross the line into Texas or Arkansas or or 271 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 3: anywhere else. 272 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 2: And one one thing to note as well is I've 273 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: been talking with some some folks in Oklahoma who are 274 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 2: pretty familiar with this issue. Uh there's there's a legislator 275 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: there named it in my notes here, Representative Kevin Wallace, 276 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 2: and he is he's a deer breeder, so he's a 277 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 2: legislator who is also owns a deer breeding facility. And 278 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 2: Kip was just mentioned that open director position. He actually 279 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 2: applied for that position last time there was an opening, 280 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: and my understanding is he didn't have the I think 281 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 2: it requires a bachelor's in wildlife science or something along 282 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 2: those lines, and he didn't have that, which is why 283 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 2: he didn't didn't get it. There is a concern that 284 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 2: if those qualifications are amended, that he then could be 285 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 2: installed in that director position, in which case you can 286 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 2: imagine how this program would probably move forward. Considering he 287 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 2: was also very influential behind this bill. So that's another 288 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: thing if you live in Oklahoma to be on the lookout. 289 00:18:49,880 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: For how much similarity is there between SCRAPY and CWD. 290 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about a sheep versus a white 291 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: tailed deer in this instance, and scrapyes versus CWD. So 292 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: two totally different biological systems, two totally different diseases, but 293 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: you know at some level they are connected, right, But 294 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: is there how strong is that theory that because we 295 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: can do this with sheep with a kissing cousin disease, 296 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: we can do it with deer and a kissing cousin disease. 297 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 3: Well as far as how closely related they are, you know, 298 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 3: there's a whole bunch of preon diseases. Scrapey is the 299 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 3: preon disease in sheep. CWD is the preon disease a 300 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 3: deer b s E. Or the you know, the mad cow, 301 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 3: that's the version that's in cattle. Krutchfeld Janko is the 302 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 3: human version. So there's a lot of different pren diseases. 303 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 3: You know, each one manifests itself a little differently in 304 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 3: the different species. But suffice to say, yeah, scrapey and 305 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: CWD or you know, at least similar. So they're not 306 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 3: saying let's try this because they're really really similar. The 307 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 3: deer breaders are saying let's try this because we successively 308 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 3: you know eradicated scrapie in our sheep population through this 309 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 3: genetic breeding, and that part is true. But what they 310 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: are jumping way ahead of the game to say, oh, yeah, now, 311 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 3: let's do this in Oklahoma because they did this over 312 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 3: you know, a long period of time in sheep with 313 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 3: a lot of research and killing a lot of animals 314 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 3: to do so during the studies, and say there was 315 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 3: a ten step process to eliminate this in sheep. Comparative 316 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 3: right now to what's going on in Oklahoma, they are 317 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: at most. 318 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: At step three. 319 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 3: There's a lot of steps to get to the end 320 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 3: note to be similar to what they accomplished in scrapee. So, 321 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 3: you know, is it possible. Nobody knows yet for sure, 322 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 3: because none of those tests have been done and they 323 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 3: are nowhere near to the same degree of testing or 324 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 3: knowledge of this in CWD that they that they are 325 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 3: or that we know about in scrapy. So they are 326 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 3: only using that as a comparison because they have identified 327 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 3: they did this in scrapey or did this with scrapy 328 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 3: and cheap. 329 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: So you know, there's some some obvious benefits here if 330 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: you're in early on this game of ownership of deer 331 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: that have this uh more resistant gene and as we 332 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: covered more as in quotation marks here, and you can 333 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: build up that herd and be able to you know, 334 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: distribute individuals or you know, I imagine like bread does 335 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: to willing buyers. You're you're opening up the market when 336 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: you can then sell it to not just people who 337 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: have to be lice and as a captive servand breeder. 338 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: But I think that kind of hurts the captive breeders 339 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: as well because then that genetic intellectual property is then 340 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: out there on the landscape. I guess it's odd to 341 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: me who wanted who wanted this bill? Like, what was 342 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: the where was the outcry? Did it come from hunters 343 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 1: in the state of Oklahoma. 344 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 3: No, not at all. And this is all being pushed 345 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 3: by deer breeders as a strategy to remain relevant. Deer 346 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 3: breeding industry has been declining over the past decade, in 347 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 3: large part because of CWD. So this is a strategy 348 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 3: buy that industry to continue to try to remain relevant 349 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 3: to society. This is one thing they know that they're pushing. 350 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 3: They have seen some success with this behind the fence, 351 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 3: because yeah, these deer live a little bit longer as 352 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 3: they prop them up, you know, before they die. So 353 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 3: for people in Oklahoma, hunters are certainly not calling for this. 354 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 3: The State Wileife Agency isn't, you know. And what we 355 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 3: know about this cow it will not work in the wild. 356 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 3: And the reason that I say that is, as we 357 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 3: talked about earlier. 358 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: This genetic definitive statement. 359 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 3: Very definitive because the genetic testing that we know, okay, 360 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 3: these deer in captivity that have this trait seem to 361 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 3: live a little longer. We can also study, and this 362 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 3: has been done, the genetic traits of deer in the 363 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 3: wild in Oklahoma and all these other states. And what 364 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 3: we know is deer that have this trait in the 365 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 3: wild exist at very very low percentages because mother nature 366 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 3: weeds them out very quickly. A deer reader can prop 367 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 3: these deer up through animal husband techniques and keep them 368 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 3: alive behind the fence. Mother nature can be cruel, you know, 369 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 3: she has not propping anybody up. So these deer just 370 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 3: simply don't survive in the wild enough to make any difference. 371 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 3: So whe people say will this work, no, it can't work, 372 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 3: and we know it won't because these deer don't survive 373 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 3: outside of the fence. 374 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: And you know through past c TOBD conversations, those animals 375 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: that are carriers of the disease, once they get to 376 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: a point where they're the pre on levels are high 377 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: enough to where it's it is transmittable through nose to 378 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: nose contact mucus, those longer surviving carriers are potentially just 379 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: spreading more of the disease around. Correct, That's exactly right. 380 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 3: And I've been asked where people say, well, hey, like, 381 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 3: what's it hurt? You say, it's not going to work, 382 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 3: but isn't it worth a chance? And the hitser is 383 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 3: again a definitive no, because there's not a practical and 384 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 3: a reliable live animal test for the disease. The incubation 385 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 3: period in the disease is eighteen to twenty four months 386 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 3: on average. And what that means is the vast majority 387 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: of deer that have CWD don't show any symptoms. You know, 388 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 3: you or I can't look at them and tell until 389 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 3: they get to the end of that period. Then they 390 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 3: start showing symptoms and then they die very rapidly. But 391 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 3: up until then, they are shedding infectious materials in urine feces. 392 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 3: As you said, direct contact as a social grooming each other, 393 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 3: et cetera. So they're spreading these infectious materials that will 394 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 3: infect other animals on the landscape. So since we don't 395 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 3: have a good live animal test, you know, unfortunately animals 396 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 3: are shipped from facility to other facilities on a regular basis, 397 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 3: and then this is often how CWD ends up in 398 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 3: a new area. Now, I'm not bashing the deer farmers 399 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 3: here because they don't want to move an animal that 400 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 3: has the disease. That's not their best interest. Certainly another 401 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 3: facility doesn't want to bring an animal in that has it. 402 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 3: But because there's not a live animal test that's practical 403 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 3: and liable, these animals are moved that that do have 404 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 3: the disease. So when people say, isn't it worth a 405 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 3: chance in the wild, heck no, it's not, because you 406 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 3: could be moving animals from these facilities that have the 407 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 3: disease into the wild that now are spreading the disease 408 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 3: to new areas and they are infecting our wild deer. 409 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 3: So if this absolutely, if we thought this had a 410 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: fifty to fifty chance of working, there's still a lot 411 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 3: of reason to not stock these during the wild. But 412 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 3: given that we know it's not going to there are 413 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 3: huge risks of you know, moving this disease around, so 414 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 3: you know that's the biggest danger here. An animal that's 415 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 3: had the disease for a while, the test do a 416 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: pretty good job picking that up. But an animal in 417 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 3: the early stages the tests work, you know, they don't 418 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 3: work much at all for that So those are the 419 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 3: ones that are often missed. So we are going to 420 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 3: expose our wild deer to huge risks when when we 421 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 3: know it's not going to work. You know, this can't 422 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 3: help breed this out in a wild population. 423 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: What we got to hit you kept saying a live 424 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: animal test, right, which implies that there's a dead animal 425 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: tast When you're looking to breed animals, swap that genetic 426 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: material around. The live part is crucial unless you're using 427 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: artificial insemination, which is a big part of that industry. 428 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: But where are we on this live animal test. 429 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 3: There's a there's a lot of work being done on 430 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 3: that and that would be a huge gain for for 431 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 3: everybody involved with deer. You know, if we had a 432 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 3: really good test. So currently the two well, the dead 433 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 3: animal tests are they're testing the brain or they're pulling 434 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 3: lymph nodes. Once an animal has died to test those 435 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 3: those do a good job, you know, identifying yes, the 436 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 3: animal had this disease or not. As far as a 437 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 3: live animal test, they can get tonsils or they do 438 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 3: recto biopses. They don't work real good on elk, better 439 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 3: on mule deer, for sure. They definitely work better on 440 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 3: white tails than either of the other species. But what 441 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 3: happens is hard to get those samples. Deer don't. Deer 442 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 3: don't like to give up pieces you know, of their 443 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 3: butt or of their their tonsils, and these are the 444 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 3: ones they just you know, if the deer is in 445 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 3: late stages, yeah, we can detect it through those early 446 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 3: stages not much at all. So fortunately there is additional 447 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 3: research being done in that testing. And man, I am 448 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 3: all for that. I think that so much more research 449 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 3: dollars should be put toward live animal tests because that 450 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: we know the single best way to move this disease 451 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 3: is to move a live animal that has it. So 452 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 3: if we had a really good live animal test, that 453 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 3: that could help us tremendously not move these animals from 454 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: facility to facility, you know, and continue to spread this disease. 455 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: And are there variance of CWD. And the reason I 456 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: ask that is if you you have so many variables, 457 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: like if if captor breeder A through Z has their 458 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: own independent populations that they're selectively breeding, is there the 459 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: possibility that they could also be breeding more resistant deer, 460 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: but deer with other strains of CWD. 461 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 3: Well, they know that there's at least ten different strains 462 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: of CWD, all of which are one hundred percent fatal 463 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 3: to all deer. So I do know, you know, the 464 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 3: CWD strain that's in the Scandinavian countries, is that different 465 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 3: or seems to be different than what we have here 466 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 3: in North America. After that, you're getting above my knowledge 467 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 3: of the different strains part. So so what you're asking, 468 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 3: you know, there's certainly some concern whether you know, Okay, 469 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 3: we start messing with this, and you know, and now 470 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 3: will some of these strains end up making a more 471 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 3: resistance strain. You know, that's a lot of talk about 472 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 3: something that's already one hundred percent fatal to all deer. 473 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 3: So I get. I don't like that conversation because I 474 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 3: think it draws away from the real conversation at hand, is, Hey, 475 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 3: what do we need to do to protect our animals, 476 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 3: you know, and what the hunters and managers really need 477 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 3: to know here. I don't care to deal in the 478 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 3: nuances of different things when we know, hey, they're still 479 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 3: all going to kill every single deer, you know. I 480 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 3: think there's better conversations we need to have in better 481 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 3: places to spend money to learn more about this disease 482 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 3: so that we can better protect our wild deer. 483 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: And gosh, we need hours more to talk about this. 484 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: So and I keep saying, Alliance, I apologize for that. 485 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: It's just stuck in my head. National Deer Association. Think 486 00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: of any official statements on the two fellows that ate 487 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: the deer out of the similar area and got krutskilled. Jacobs. 488 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we saw that. We've worked with the folks, 489 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 3: you know, some of the top pre on people in 490 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 3: the country. Every country has their own top pre onto 491 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 3: research place. In the United States, it's a case Western 492 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 3: Reserve University in Ohio. We know the pre on folks there. 493 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 3: We consult with them on a regular basis, and so 494 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 3: we know, you know, what's being talked about, and there 495 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 3: has never been any you know, confirmation that yes, this 496 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 3: hunter got it from this. So when we saw that article, 497 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 3: you know, we immediately went to the source to find 498 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 3: out what happened there. You know, As it turns out 499 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 3: that was that information came from a poster at a conference. 500 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 3: You know, a grad student put this poster together, I'm sure, 501 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 3: having no idea this was going to get construed the 502 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 3: way that it did. It has since been you know, 503 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 3: looked on trum it. They talked about, Okay, yeah, this 504 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 3: guy got CJ D oh and he was a hunter. 505 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 3: You know what, they don't even know if they ate 506 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 3: venison from CWD positive deer. They just know they were 507 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: in an area where the disease had been confirmed in 508 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 3: the population. You know, but in most places where CWD 509 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 3: is it still exists that you know what, one or 510 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 3: two percent of these deer, it's very low. So that 511 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 3: was a huge air on that journal's part to run that. 512 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 3: You know, like if you, you know, as a journalist 513 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 3: wrote something like that, you know, you would be you know, 514 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 3: disbarred in your area if Jordan did that. So it's 515 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 3: pretty crazy what they did. So our stanzas there's still 516 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 3: no no evidence at all that this will jump the 517 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 3: species barrier to humans. We still say, hey, if you're 518 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 3: in an area that has the disease, get that animal 519 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 3: tested and you know, don't need it until you get 520 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 3: a satisfactory test result, but definitely get it tested so 521 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 3: that state agency can learn more about the prevalence rate 522 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 3: and the rate of spread. You know, those are the 523 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 3: type of things that we need to be able to 524 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,239 Speaker 3: battle it. And fortunately that's something that hunters can do 525 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 3: every day. You know, they can all get engaged in 526 00:32:58,880 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 3: that fight. 527 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know we Citizen science is something we love 528 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: here on the Week in Review. And taking those couple 529 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: extra steps or making those extra steps not extra but 530 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: just normal, contributes to the thing that you love doing 531 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: the reason that you're out there doing it right, So 532 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: we certainly in support of that. How much are you 533 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: still hearing the folks, you know, like the people out 534 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: there who question the concern of CWD in general by saying, well, 535 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: if a deer can live to six with the disease 536 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: and we shoot most of our deer at three, what 537 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: does it matter? 538 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 3: I think the big argument against that is one, just 539 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 3: because it lives to six with the disease. You know, 540 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 3: you don't want them having the disease continuing to live 541 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 3: because they spread it to other animals. One of the 542 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 3: differences between the pre endesas is like, if a cow 543 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 3: has mad cow disease, it can't give it to another cow. 544 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 3: It can be in a pasture of a thousand other animals, 545 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 3: and as long as you don't grind that cow's brain 546 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 3: up and feed it to the others, it can't give 547 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 3: it to the others. And man, I wish CWD was 548 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 3: that way, but it's not. So when a deer has 549 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 3: it and it's livid with others, that deer is shedding 550 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 3: infectious materials into the environment that then plants can take 551 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 3: up and hold the material it binds with the soil. 552 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 3: So when other animals come in contact with that deer, 553 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 3: then other animals become CWD positive as well. And that's 554 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 3: one of the dangers of the disease and allows us 555 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 3: to spread so much more rapidly through a deer population 556 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 3: than say, you know, b SE did in cattle. So 557 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 3: that's why I tell those people it's important because you 558 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 3: shouldn't eat that unless you know. And two, we don't 559 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 3: want that prevalence rate in that deer here to continue 560 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 3: to rise because as of right now we have no 561 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 3: way to stop it. The best thing that we can 562 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 3: do is maintain it at at very low prevalence rates 563 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 3: while science has the time to catch up. 564 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: So that that's the fight. 565 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 3: That we need to engage in each day. And you know, 566 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,720 Speaker 3: I firmly believe you know, every single hunter can engage 567 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 3: in that. And that's a good place to be. 568 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: Well, that's a great, great place to be. I mean, 569 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: I think of all the griping and moaning that we 570 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: do about the big government making our decisions for us, 571 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: right that's the way that we can contribute and play 572 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: play our part. So I certainly like like that. Right 573 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: now in regards to HB three four six two in Oklahoma, 574 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,760 Speaker 1: it's sitting on the governor's desk right now. Do people 575 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma still have a chance to weigh in? Can 576 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: they at least let their opinion be known? 577 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 3: That they certainly can, And actually our director of Policy 578 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 3: is going to be meeting with the governor's office to 579 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 3: still try to convince them to know, hey, this is 580 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 3: a bad idea. So yes, people in Oklahoma still have 581 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 3: a chance. They can, you know, let the governor know 582 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 3: that they oppose this, that this is not good for 583 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 3: for wild deer or the wildlife conservation. So time is 584 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 3: of the essence for sure, cow. But but there still 585 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 3: is time. 586 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: And then what can folks do to learn more about 587 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: the National Deer Association and get involved in some of 588 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: those programs that you mentioned, or or just support the 589 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,919 Speaker 1: overall association. 590 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, if they care about deer, they can go to 591 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 3: Deer Association dot com. That's our website. We have all 592 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 3: kinds of information there relative to the things that we do, 593 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 3: the things that we're involved with, obviously stuff that we 594 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 3: talked about here today. They can sign up for for 595 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 3: our free weekly newsletter that has this type of information, 596 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 3: you know, to keep them abreast of advocacy issues, you know, 597 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 3: of of deer research issues, et cetera. So it's it's free, 598 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 3: it's easy to do, and uh, you know, if they 599 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 3: care about deer, is a great place to be able 600 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 3: to go to get the information that they're looking for. 601 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: Darn right. Well, Hey, thank you so much for coming on. 602 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: It's a tough subject about something that we all love 603 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: and like we kind of unfortunately preach here. Just because 604 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: it's happening in that state doesn't mean it's not going 605 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,959 Speaker 1: to affect your state. If not right now, the next 606 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: legislative session or the next rule making session or regulation session, 607 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: So learn about what's happening in Oklahoma. For gosh sakes, 608 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: if you hunt in that place, you should call and 609 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: let your opinion be known. If you border the state 610 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: of Oklahoma and you like to hunt, you should call 611 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: and let your opinion be known because, like we've talked about, 612 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: those deer don't know where the state of Oklahoma starts 613 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,240 Speaker 1: and ends, so that deer under that management guideline could 614 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: become your management issue. Thank you so much, Kip, National 615 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 1: Deer Association. We'll get the link up on the website. 616 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: You're you're kind of on the hook now to be 617 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: the be the deer guy. Uh, so we're gonna have 618 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: to drag you back on here, and we got a 619 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: lot more to talk about, but thank you so much 620 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: for your time. And uh, folks, check out the National 621 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: Deer Association and we'll get the links up on the podcast. 622 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 1: But first and foremost, you should call the governor's desk 623 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma and let them know your thoughts, concerns, and 624 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: where you think the health of deer should lie in 625 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: your state. Do do do do do do do do 626 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: do do do do do do. 627 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:46,879 Speaker 2: Uh. 628 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: This just in Phil you'll probably come up with a 629 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: better sound effect than that. Since this episode was recorded 630 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: in just a matter of a couple of days, Governor 631 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: Stitt there in Oklahoma signed the highly controversial Chronic Wasting 632 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: Disease Genetic Improvement Act. As we talked about it mostly 633 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: is House Bill three four six ' two. It is 634 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 1: now law requires the Oklahoma Department of Agriculture, Food and 635 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: Forestry to create a pilot program to quote enhance the 636 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: genetic durability of deer in Oklahoma against chronic wasting disease 637 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: man alive. You guys know my opinion on it. I 638 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: think this is crazy. The science says that it is 639 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: not sound. And what I'm dying to know cal's wee 640 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: can review listeners if you can write in. Someone has 641 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: to have some expertise here. Is there some sort of 642 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: liability for the State of Oklahoma. Can neighboring states like 643 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: sue the pants off of these folks because they're gonna 644 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: release farmed deer which is like widely known to be 645 00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: the source of chronic wasting disease onto the landscape, right, 646 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: and those deer don't know where Oklahoma starts, stops, ends, begins, 647 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: et cetera. I think about it this way. I have 648 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: a chicken with HPAI and I let it go in Montana. 649 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: It walks across the state line in North Dakota and 650 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: mingles with chickens in North Dakota. It's got a big 651 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,959 Speaker 1: old red tag on its ass that says cal that's 652 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: my responsibility, right, that's my livestock. And that's what captive 653 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: serviands are in the state of Oklahoma is livestock. Seems 654 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: real odd, seems real odd. But just like you, if 655 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: you're listening to the Cows we Can Review podcast, I'm 656 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: here to learn more, educate me. Please write in to 657 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: ask c Al. That's an ascal at the Meat Eater 658 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: dot com. If you live in the state of Oklahoma, 659 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: you know there's certainly ways to influence how your money 660 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,439 Speaker 1: is being spent. And you got to stay on top 661 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: of your public officials and voice your concern and make 662 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: sure they know that you are very scared of seeing 663 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: your big old white tail bucks or big old mule 664 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,320 Speaker 1: to your bucks in the extreme western side of the state. 665 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: Impacted potentially negatively more than likely negatively by this program. 666 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:20,839 Speaker 1: Thanks a bunch. We'll talk to you next week.