1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: A warning this episode contains language and depictions of violence 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: that may be disturbing to some listeners. They're bottle all 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: up here. This is keep in mind. This is all 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: officer blows right here as a bucket of water and blood. 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: Next say, supposedly trying to fixed on the officers that 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: have watch them all. The April uprising at the Southern 7 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: Ohio Correctional Facility in Lucasville, Ohio is over eleven excruciating days, 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: ten gruesome murders. It's still one of the longest and 9 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: deadliest prison riots in US history. Or blot wall over 10 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: here now there's all over this blood everywhere. The investigation 11 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: and the hunt for those responsible is about to begin. 12 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: Keith Lamar will soon find himself in the center of 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: it all. But first, a warning from prisoners left behind 14 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: for law enforcement is literally written on the wall. Don't 15 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: treat prisoners like stupid animals. It could happen again. Lucasville rioters. 16 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: I'm Leah Rothman. This is the real killer. Episode two 17 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: still human Beings. Not long after the Violet Riots began, 18 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: show did the brutal killings for at least six of 19 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: the murdered inmates. The end was painful and bloody. The 20 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: killings were barbed barrack. Here's Cincinnati news station w CPO 21 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: reporting These autopsies, released just hours ago and obtained by 22 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: Channel nine, reveal a chilling pattern of homicide. At least 23 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: five inmates were beaten to death, all of them suffering 24 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: massive head injuries along with deep cuts all over their bodies. 25 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: There were eight prisoners murdered in L Block Ground zero 26 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: during the uprising, Darryl de Pinative Earl Elder, Franklin Farrell, 27 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: Bruce Harris, David Summers, Albert Steano forty, William Savetti, and 28 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: Bruce Howard Vitali Jr. Also killed an L Block was 29 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: Officer Robert V. Landingham, forty. He died from ligature strangulation. 30 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: Every one of the murders was of a brutal nature. 31 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: That's Kenneth Marshall, thirty one year veteran of the Ohio 32 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol back. He was the executive officer in 33 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: the Office of Investigative Services. I speak with ken over zoom. 34 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: All those guys a terrible death, you can believe that, 35 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: But there's still one more victim, Dennis Weaver. Dennis Weaver 36 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: was killed two days after the Easter Sunday revolt. Dennis 37 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: Weaver was one of those three hundred men removed from 38 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: the wreck yard late that first night and put in 39 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: a K block cell with nine others. The next day, 40 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: he was murdered. The coroner's report on inmate Dennis Weaver 41 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: determined the cause of death to be asphyxiation by cervical 42 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: ligature and asphixiation by gagging. I want to make sure 43 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: the ten victims aren't forgotten in all this. Regardless of 44 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: who they were, an officer or an offender, their lives 45 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: had meaning and what happened to them was a tragedy. 46 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: I've reached out to the victims families the ones I 47 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: could find, but so far no one has returned my 48 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: messages back in finding out who murdered these men is 49 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: top priority. It was a massive leundertaking. Kenneth Marshall will 50 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: lead his team in the largest investigation in the State 51 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: Highway Patrols history. At sixteen investigators then nine solid months, 52 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: sixteen guys that didn't have any experience doing that before. 53 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: It's of a magnitude that's hard to judge. Maybe part 54 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: of what made it so daunting was the state and 55 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: size of the crime scene. L Block, where the uprising 56 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: took place, consisted of eight houses or blocks like L one, 57 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: L two, L three up to L eight, and each 58 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: one of those consisted of eighty eight by ten cells, 59 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: so six hundred and forty cells total. The entire L 60 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: Block was one hundred and fifteen thousand square feet and 61 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: the adjoining gymnasium was almost twenty square feet, so that 62 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: was more than two football fields worth of potential evidence 63 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: for investigators to go through. The whole L Block was 64 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: just totally annihilated. I mean, we had four hundred prisoners 65 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: that were loosing these cell blocks. They tore everything up, 66 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: they broke everything, and so yeah, that was the very 67 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: first step was to go through, sort out and find 68 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: what evidence we could find in all those cell blocks, collated, 69 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: secure it, try and keep track of it. It was. 70 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: It was just a tremendous job. What was some of 71 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: the evidence that your investigators found an L Block? What 72 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: they found mostly in L Block was the instruments that 73 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: cause of death. I mean, it's been thirty years, so 74 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: I just have to speak in generalities about that, but 75 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: that's that's what they were looking for. Anything, whether it 76 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: be a piece of paper, a note written to somebody, 77 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: a shank, or a piece of pipe with blood on it. 78 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: All of that was gathered up, analyzed, dusted for fingerprints. 79 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: They will also go through hours and hours of audio 80 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: recordings obtained during some of the eleven days, the investigators 81 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: inserted microphones underneath the cell blocks, monitoring the conversations of 82 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: the inmates. Those recordings will be referred to as the 83 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: tunnel tapes. But their most important investigative tool will be 84 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: the interviews they conduct with the prisoners. Here's w CPO 85 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: reporting These murder investigations pose a unique problem. Not only 86 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: are the inmates the prime suspects, they are also the 87 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: best witnesses. And it's these prisoner interviews that will soon 88 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: become the crux of Keith Lamar's case. Trying to think 89 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: of what it was they had interviews with different inmates 90 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: and some reinterviews. That's a lot of interviews. Well yeah, 91 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: I mean you've got to do the interview in order 92 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: to get the wheels in motion. And it's the interviews. 93 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: And of course, when you're interviewing these inmates, guess what 94 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: they don't want to tell you the truth. They want 95 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: to tell you You know how clean they are, but 96 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: they don't mind talking to you about Joe or Phil 97 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: doing this. A lot of prisoners were interviewed multiple times, 98 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: sometimes one, sometimes two, three or four or five. I 99 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: think up into like eleven and twelve interviews. Why, well, 100 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: you know, the most difficult thing to do when you're 101 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: being interviewed by someone is to tell a lie. Because 102 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: in the second interview you didn't remember what your lie was, 103 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: and on the third interview, you didn't remember what your 104 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: second line was. So it's just strictly detective work. It's 105 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: a good police work. You got a suspect, you're pretty 106 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: sure this is your guy. How many times is he 107 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: gonna lie to you? And then how are you going 108 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: to prove that he was lying in the first place? 109 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know, you know, I don't know 110 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: specifically that that's true. You probably know a little bit 111 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: more about that with your research than I do, but 112 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: I would say that absolutely that's the case, and that's 113 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: the reason for it. So they're catching these people in 114 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: a lie and then eventually it all comes out. It's 115 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: a little bit like blue Blunts, you know, only in 116 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: real life. Is that the one with Tom Seller? Yeah? Well, 117 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: everybody knows Tom Seller. Um, you know, I've been telling 118 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: these kinds of stories for I've just never heard of 119 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: so many interviews. Yeah. Well, and I think that's what 120 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: makes this whole investigation so unique that we were actually 121 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: able to convict five known felons of murder. How do 122 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: we do that? But we did that by doing the 123 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: stuff that you're saying you've never heard it. Net's that 124 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: was all groundbreaking stuff done by these Ohio State troopers. 125 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: It's in some of these very interviews that Keith and 126 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: many others say manipulation and misconduct occurred. We are going 127 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,119 Speaker 1: to talk a lot more about this in later episodes. 128 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: So at the end of the Ohio State Highway Patrols 129 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: lengthy investigation, and based mostly on the interviews they conducted 130 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: with prisoners, five men are singled out as leaders during 131 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: the uprising, Actually the same five men Kenneth Marshall just 132 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: referred to. Two are from the Muslim community, Sadiq Abdallah 133 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: Hassan formerly known as Carlos Sanders and Namir Abdul Matine 134 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: also known as James Ware, and two other inmates are 135 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: members of the Arian Brotherhood, George Skates and Jason rob 136 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: investigators believe those four took part in various crimes, including 137 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: the killing of Officer Robert H. Landingham, but the fifth 138 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: person is not someone affiliated with any gang or group 139 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: or even remotely connected to officer of the Landingham's death. 140 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: This is a prepaid debit call from Keith Lamar, an 141 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: animated at the Ohio State in a country, Keith Lamar 142 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: will be named the leader of the death Squad and 143 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: accused of calling for and taking part in the murders 144 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: of five prisoners during the first and third days of 145 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: the uprising. This call is from a correction facility and 146 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: is subject to monitoring and recording. Thank you for using GTL. 147 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: Fifty three year old Keith Lamar talks to me from 148 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: death row at the Ohio State Penitentiary in Youngstown, Ohio. 149 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: I'm okay, how are you okay? I'm I'm doing all right. Yeah. 150 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: Keith and I started talking back in May of In total, 151 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: we've spoken twenty seven times for almost thirty five hours. 152 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: Our conversations have run the gamut. We've discussed family, prison life, 153 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: books and music, racism, politics, and of course his case. 154 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: The first time we speak, he is open and friendly, 155 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: but he also lets me know what he expects from me. 156 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: I think one thing you should know, as long as 157 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: you are involved in giving at the truth, you and 158 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: I will be good. I am after the truth and 159 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: I am going to do my best to try and 160 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: uncover it. So let's start with investigators basic theory of 161 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: what they say Keith did on the first day, really 162 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: the first hours of the Upper Rising. They allege Keith, 163 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: then twenty three, is out on the recreation yard when 164 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: the riot kicks off. They say he and two other 165 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: prisoners come into l Block L six to be exact, 166 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: to check on their belongings in their cells. After they 167 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: do so, the Muslim prisoners, who are seemingly in charge, 168 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: won't allow them to go back outside. That's when investigators 169 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: say Keith comes up with a plan, a plan that 170 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: involves killing some prisoners who were alleged snitches. See. During 171 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: the early hours of the uprising, the Muslim prisoners supposedly 172 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: had those so called snitches locked up in cells for 173 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: their own protection because as snitches, they are some of 174 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: the most hated within the prison population and they'd be 175 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: quite vulnerable to retaliation. But investigators believe Keith sees the 176 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: snitches as a bargaining chip, they say, he offers to 177 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: kill them and in return asks that they be allowed 178 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: to leave and go back out onto the wreck yard. 179 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: Investigators say, when one of the Muslim prisoners gives him 180 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: the go ahead, Keith assembles a group of men who 181 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: mask up and arm themselves with various weapons like bats, knives, shovels, 182 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: and white bars. According to investigators, Keith then orders the 183 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: prison cells where the alleged snitches are being held to 184 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: be opened one at a time. Then he and a 185 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: squad of men go sell to sell, killing four darryld Apina, 186 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: Albert Steano, William Savetti and Bruce Vitali. Afterwards, Keith and 187 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: the others are allowed to leave l block and return 188 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: to the yard. Keith, not surprisingly for a man who 189 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: has maintained his innocence for the last thirty years, tells 190 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: a very different story. It was Easter Sunday, the holiday, 191 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: and so there wasn't as much staff there as it 192 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 1: would have normally or otherwise would have been. Everybody have 193 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: to being cooked, the ball in her everybody was trying 194 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: to get outside, trying to get some fresh air. And 195 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, I went outside and I ran a few 196 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: miles with a few of my friends. You know, recreation 197 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: had been called through a hand, but we were all 198 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: lined up to go back into the building and um, 199 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: all of a sudden a guard ran out with blood 200 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: streaming down his face. And shortly after that inmate came 201 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: out holding the PR twenty four, one of those one 202 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: of the night sticks, which I assumed he took from 203 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: the guard, And that was the first indication any of 204 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: us had that there was something going on, and we 205 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: all knew that then, you know, the spirit repercussions for 206 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: something like that suddenly down in Louisville. Luisville was a 207 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: maximum security prison, you know, so you know, everybody who 208 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: mainly who were by the door at that particular time 209 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: kind of backed up and went back into the middle 210 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: of the yard or sat down on the picnic tables, 211 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: you know, like that was the front row seat. And then, 212 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: um about I don't know, dirty and this or so 213 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: into the ride, a guy that I knew, uh came 214 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: out and was kind of giving us a blow by 215 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: blow after what was going on. And it seemed at 216 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: the time that it was just persons running around ransacking sales, 217 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: of searching guys sales. We found out and laying around 218 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: that David was going from sales and sales, robbing guys 219 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: for their property. And this would actually spurred me to 220 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: go back in. And I didn't have anything of of 221 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: immense value in there, just some boxing boosts, some pictures 222 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: and personal effects, nothing to risk my life about. But 223 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: again we didn't know at the outset the magnitude of 224 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: what was going on. So you go inside, you check 225 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: on your belongings. What were you thinking, I mean, the 226 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: chaos is happening all around you. It was it was darring, 227 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: you know, to see the level of destruction that was 228 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: going on. It was hundreds and hundreds of people in 229 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: the hallway, just people running all over everywhere, anarchy basically 230 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: people but the windows, people screaming, hollering. And I made 231 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: my way through this, you know, uh, massive people to 232 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: L six. That was the pot where I was how 233 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: um and I walked into the pod. And you know, 234 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: one of the first things now, now, when I walked 235 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: into the pod, contrast to the madness and everything that 236 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: was going on in the corporado, this was real quiet 237 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: inside of L six. It was orderly inside of L 238 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: six because unbeknownst me at the time, this was the 239 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: place where the hostages were being held. You know, I 240 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: walked in, I saw some guards to my right in 241 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: the lord shower stalls, and I walked down to my cell. 242 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: He says, when he gets to a cell, someone's there. 243 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: My start's individible with myself. There was nobody man in 244 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: the control panel at the time. I ran up to 245 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: the panel trying to open my door and inadvertently opened 246 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: some other doors wherever. They also makes in those sales 247 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: as well. Some of those prisoners came out, and the 248 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: guys who was presiding over the pod, who was in 249 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: control of the pods, saw that. So when I was 250 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: doing and I had a confrontation and had a conversation 251 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: i should say with uh several of these individuals, and 252 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: they explained to me what was going on, that this 253 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: was a riot, that we were taking over the ride. 254 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: We tired of being treated like second class citizens, so 255 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: on and so forth. And they kind of gave me 256 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: an ultimatum that you can need to stand here with 257 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: us to be a part of what we're doing, or 258 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: you could leave. And I, you know, I chose to 259 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: I chose to leave. I I knew enough to know that, Yeah, 260 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be a part of that, and 261 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: I left, you know, I I came back onto the 262 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: yard and then you know, I've said on record that 263 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: you know it couldn't have been more than ten minutes. 264 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: But the truth is that I have no idea how 265 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: long I was inside. You know, ten minutes could seem 266 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: like ten hours when your life is on the line, 267 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: if you know how much time, you know, come on, 268 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: you know, you know I don't have a watch all 269 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: and and and you don't know that that never that 270 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: will be important. Laying wrong. So to reiterate, Keith says 271 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: he went inside L six to check on his property, 272 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: saw a man in a cell, opened some cell doors, 273 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: was asked if he wanted to stay and participate in 274 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: the riot, said no, then went back out to the 275 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: yard and he's not totally sure how long he was inside. 276 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: What comes next is not in dispute by Keith or investigators. 277 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: Around two am, Keith and the three prisoners who had 278 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: been out on the yard are rounded up and brought inside. 279 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: All are stripped, naked, zip tied, and put in a 280 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: by ten cells in K Block. Keith is put in 281 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: cell K twoty six with nine other men. The next day, 282 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: one of those men is murdered and in time Key 283 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: will be blamed for it. They said or claimed that 284 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: I want indivisibles for three individuals to kill. How is 285 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: that possible? How can one person with with no weapons 286 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: give these three individuals in order to kill somebody? It's 287 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: day three of the uprising. Keith Lamar is in a 288 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: K block prison cell with nine other men. Dennis Weaver, 289 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: one of those men, is then killed. Investigators basic theory 290 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: is this, they say. Keith accuses Dennis Weaver of being 291 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: a snitch. When Weaver denies it, Keith punches him in 292 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: the face. Investigators say Keith then accuses another man in 293 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: the cell, William Bowling, of being a snitch as well. 294 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: When he denies it, Keith tells Bowling he's got a choice. 295 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: Either Bowling has to kill Weaver or Keith will kill him. 296 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: According to investigators, William Bowling strangles Dennis Weaver, but when 297 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: Weaver fights back, Keith instructs two other men to jump 298 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: in and help. Investigators believe Keith then shoves papers or 299 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: plastic down Weaver's throat to finish him off. Then Keith 300 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: tells the other men in the cell they need to 301 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: make Weaver's death look like a suicide. But here's what 302 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: Keith says happened. We had all been forced into these 303 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: single man sales, thin people, so all of us would 304 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: tramatas and we would net it had eaten. We were tired, 305 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: we had been stretched to our limits. Eventually, corrections officers 306 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: come around to cut their zip ties, give them white 307 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: jumpsuits and sandwiches. Keith says that's when things take a turn. 308 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: At some point during UM the morning time, the guards 309 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: came around. They proved family just into the sale like 310 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: we were wild animals, and like wild animals, everybody ramps 311 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: in the front of the sale and was trying to 312 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: you know, you know, get a sandwich, and some people 313 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: got took more than their share and death. What happened? 314 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: What started the skirmish, The skirmish that leads to Dennis 315 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: Weaver being murdered. Dennis was like an older UM prisoner, 316 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: probably in the sixties at the time, you know, great 317 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: play hair, you know, and real clients of spoken guy, 318 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: although Keith says Dennis Weaver isn't so soft spoken. That day, 319 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: he starts arguing with William Bowling, get as we didn't 320 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: get a sandwich and has something to say about it 321 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: to one of his guy named William Bowling. This started 322 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: an argument. William Bowling he was a bully, had a 323 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: reputation of kind of being a strong armed kind of guy, 324 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, walking around with a you know, smirk on 325 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: his face, real threat, the menacing capital individual. And he 326 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: got into it with Dinners and uh, Bowling he was 327 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: like in hysterics basically after Dinners had you know, the 328 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: nerves to say something to him, to stand up to him, 329 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: and um, he was just going from personal posting kind 330 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: of you know, doing a gut check basically. You know, 331 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: I wasn't you know, one of those guys who was 332 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: gonna stand back and allow somebody to bullying me. And 333 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: so when he turned his attention to me, you know, 334 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: with a white cross, uh and hit him dead in 335 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: the mouth as hard as I could, and you know, 336 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: he kind of snapped out of at least shifted his 337 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: focus away from me and kind of focus you know, 338 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: kind of z roed in on on Dennis he shouldn't 339 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: change some words a few blows worth exchange and William 340 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: put him in the for Nelson and was choking them 341 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: and you know gunners began to you know, flop around 342 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: trying to free himself from this choke hold. Keith says, 343 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: as William Bowling is choking Dennis Weaver, Bowling tells two 344 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: other guys to jump in and help. Not long after that, uh, 345 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: Dennis we were expired, he died. Did someone put papers 346 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: in Weaver's mouth? You know? One of the ways that 347 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: the state tried to uh make it seem as if 348 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: I had his own involvement in dinnis and death. They 349 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: relatedly claimed that our stuff paper um down Dennis's throat. 350 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: It never produced the paper introduced the paper in the 351 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: evidence with my DNA was or anything. I didn't have 352 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: anything to do with dennis Is death. Keith also denies 353 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: the state's claim that he told the others in the 354 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: cell to make Weaver's death look like a suicide. What 355 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: did it do to you to see Dennis Weaver killed? 356 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: If you're stand there watch another human beings being killed? 357 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: What does that say out too? By the time then 358 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: this that I wasn't able to respond because I wasn't 359 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: a human being at that At that point, I've been 360 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: been had already been stripped of of my humans, all 361 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,959 Speaker 1: of us were this is why you can kill somebody 362 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: or what soundwas only a while animal would do that. 363 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: But this is what we have been reduced to, not 364 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: just me, all of us. I mean I didn't know 365 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: that then, you know. I mean I was its sense, 366 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: the experience, a lot of regret, a lot of remorse fulfilling, 367 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: but I didn't understand it at that time in that way. 368 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: At that time, I didn't look at it as a 369 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: moral failure. I was looking at it as me looking 370 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: out for myself, you know, in the sound self as 371 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: the sound callous. But it's difficult to find in any 372 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: way other than to your own self preservation. And that's 373 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: what I was doing. That's what I did when Keith 374 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: is eventually questioned when a highway state patrol came and 375 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: asked us about what happened in the sale, I along 376 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: with other prisoners, that that we were asleep, that we 377 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: didn't see what happened, because that's what you're do inside 378 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: of prison, you know, because obviously we're talking, we here 379 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: having this conversation and you and I about prisoners being killed, 380 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: well Leslie being snitches inside of maximum security prison. So 381 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, that was the penalty that was imposed and 382 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: this is the thing that could happen to you in 383 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: the maximum security prison if you were known to be 384 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: a snitch, and so I told the authorities that I 385 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: was asleep. Keith wants nothing to do with the investigation, 386 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: and he says that firmly plans a target on his back. 387 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: But refusing to talk to investigators isn't Keith's only problem, 388 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: because William Bowling and the two others who allegedly took 389 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: part in the killing of Dennis Weaver do talk, and 390 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: they point the finger at Keith, saying he was the ringleader. 391 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: This kind of gave William Bowling the room to kind 392 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: of shift the blame and say that I and the 393 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: other several other individuals in the sale forced him to 394 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: kill Dennis Weaver, which was totally obviously that what happened. 395 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: And that's really what my problems began, um um Leah. 396 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: It was that that that kind of put me on 397 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: the radar. So the investigators accuse you of basically making 398 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: Bowling and others kill Weaver, then how does it go 399 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: from that to them calling you or labeling you the 400 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: leader of the death squad in L six. I think 401 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: it a matter of you know, picking out of this 402 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: group of people, who was more likely to have done 403 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: That's why I think they kind of narrowed it down 404 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: who out of the individual who led in L six 405 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: was in prison for Martin. I think maybe my name 406 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: was mixing because I didn't have the face covering all. 407 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: You know, I wasn't trying to hide my face or 408 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: had my uh who I was anything like that. I 409 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: asked Kenneth Marshall from the Ohio State Highway Patrol about this. So, 410 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: Keith Lamar, do you remember how his name first became known? 411 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: I would just have to speculate that Lamar was one 412 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: of those people whose name was known to the investigators 413 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: before they even started investigating deeply. But you know, you know, 414 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 1: I don't remember what I had for dinner that day, 415 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: so I don't know if Keith's name was known before 416 00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: they even started investigating. The question is why and how 417 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: did that result in investigators accusing Keith of killing more 418 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: people than anyone else during the uprising. The Ohio State 419 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: Highway Patrol troopers aren't the only ones asking questions. There 420 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: are others at organizations like the Officers Union conducting investigations 421 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: of their own, putting Lucasville under the microscope to try 422 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: and understand why the riot happened at all. Was it 423 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: only in protest against Warden Arthur Tate's tuberculosis testing or 424 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: was there more to it? Well, Lucasville from its inception 425 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: was the disaster waiting to happen. That's Nikki Schwartz, the 426 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: prisoners rights lawyer who represented the inmates and helped negotiate 427 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: the end to the uprising. You met him in episode one. 428 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: It was the state's maximum security prison, replacing the old 429 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: Ohio State Penitentiary in Columbus, where there had been a 430 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: riot by the way, and it was bill I think 431 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: essentially political reasons on rural land in southern Ohio, and 432 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: it was a recipe for disaster from the outset because 433 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: by reason of its location, it was going to be 434 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: staffed by white Southern guards and by reason of its 435 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: character it was going to be occupied by black Northern 436 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: prisoners from Cleveland, Youngstown, Columbus, etcetera. And so these two 437 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: groups weren't designed to work well together. In addition, although 438 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: it was designed for single selling, somewhere along the way 439 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: the state needed extra space, so they converted into double cells, 440 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: and I don't know how many prison cells you've seen, 441 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: but basically they are tiny bathrooms with a bunk bit. 442 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: It's no secret Lucasville was a prison riddled with problems. 443 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: In the late Ohio's Correctional Institution Inspection Committee or c 444 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: i i CE, spent two years taking a hard look 445 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: at Lucasville. Shirley Pope, a senior researcher at c i 446 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: i CE, sent her findings in a twenty two page 447 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: confidential memo to Terry Morris, Lucasville's warden at the time. 448 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: In it, Shirley Pope wrote that she learned some of 449 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: the biggest issues that Lucasville had to do with snitch games, violence, gangs, 450 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: racial tension, drugs, gambling, sex and extortion, rings, cell assignments, 451 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: lack of personal safety, and distrust of staff. Also, and 452 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: maybe the most prophetic in all of Pope's findings was 453 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: the fact that there were quote predictions of a major 454 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: disturbance unlike any ever seen in Ohio prison history, which 455 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: to me sure sounds like people were expecting there would 456 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: be a full scale riot at Ucasville at some point. 457 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: And that's really just the tip of the twenty two 458 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: page Iceberg what came of that memo? If anything is unclear, 459 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: what is clear is that what happens on June seven, 460 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: almost three years before the uprising, will cause a seismic 461 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: shift at Lucasville. The straw that broke the camel's back 462 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: was the murder of Beverly Taylor. Beverly Taylor was a 463 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: bubbly bright, very very good educator who worked in the 464 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: prison school system. That's Lucasville's former warden, Arthur Tate. He's 465 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: talking about thirty two year old Beverly Taylor, who was 466 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: murdered at Lucasville in June, a little less than three 467 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: years before the uprising. She was grabbed a drug into 468 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: the restroom and nearly decapitated by one of her students. 469 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: Beverly Taylor's death was horrific and tragic, and four months 470 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: later there's a changing of the guard Warden Terry Morris 471 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: is out Warden Arthur Tate is in. He is not 472 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: happy about it, and I my heart sank to my toes. 473 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: To be honest with you, I didn't want to go 474 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: to Lucasville. I mean, everybody knew it was just big trouble. 475 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: I think the prison frankly had been neglected to some 476 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: extent by the Department of Corrections. It was kind of 477 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: an out of sight, out of mind place. So I 478 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: come rolling in there on October one. When I first 479 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: went there, leah Um, I inherited everything there was to 480 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: be about Lucasville. I inherit all the staff, inherit all 481 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: the problems, and inhered everything. And uh, the biggest issue 482 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: for me when I first got there was violence. The 483 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: level of violence was off the charts in my opinion. 484 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: Besides Beverly Taylor's murder, four inmates had also been killed 485 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: that year. So after only one month on the job, 486 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: Warden Tate Institutes Operations Shakedown, a multi pronged program meant 487 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: to bring security and control to Lucasville Operations. Shakedown called 488 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: for more staff to be hired, more cameras and metal 489 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: detectors to be installed. It also restricted the way prisoners 490 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: were allowed to move about the prison. It reduced the 491 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: amount of recreation time for maximum security prisoners and ended 492 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: their access to certain programs like college classes. I think 493 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: there's a what's sounds what's the term I want to use? 494 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: There's a maybe a tag that's placed on folks who 495 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: are thrust into these wardens jobs that for some reason, um, 496 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: they don't have a heart that, Um, they don't really 497 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: care about the offenders. Blah blah blah blah blah. That 498 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: was never in my repertoire when I went into a 499 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: place that was literally derailed. I gotta get the train 500 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: back on the track. I'm not really concerned about whether 501 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: a guy is gonna be able to go to college tonight. 502 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: If I've got guys getting stabbed left and right around 503 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: the corner, you know what I mean. Talk to me 504 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: about the phone calls. I read somewhere it was like 505 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: one five minute call it Christmas, Yes, andmates got a 506 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: call at Christmas time. That rule was there when I 507 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: got there. I want to make that clear. I didn't 508 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: make that rule. One five minute call once a year 509 00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: seems really, it seems a little harsh. No is harsh. 510 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: It is harsh. In George Phazon was serving time at Lucasville. 511 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: Today he's a married father and grandfather, living and working 512 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: in Cleveland. George remembers Warden Tate's operations shakedown and how 513 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: he suspended the programs. They so relied on anything that 514 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: was positive within the prison. It was taken away too 515 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: if it didn't do leting, but pret more angry because 516 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: people utilized a lot of the recreational programs as a 517 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 1: form of a release valve. And you know, the sports programs, 518 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: the were looking programs, the recreation prold web were derived 519 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: as an outlet to keep the tension down right, and 520 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: going to school throughout the day and evening. He gave 521 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: you it was something to do. So when all that 522 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: was taken away, he really really created more tension within 523 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: the prison. By the way, let me have skew. I 524 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: have heard so many people refer to those who are 525 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: incarcerated differently. Some say inmate, some say inmate is not 526 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: the proper word to use, Some say offender, some say prisoners, 527 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: some say resident. What is your preference in how to 528 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: describe somebody who is incarcerated? My purposes, we're all still 529 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: human beings, label a tit of society, beings, inmate, prison, offender. 530 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: I don't like any of those ways, because we're all 531 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: through human beings. Hands down. One of the biggest issues 532 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: at Lucasville was race, and it seems to go back 533 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: to the three factors. Prisoners rights lawyer Nikki Schwartz talked 534 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: about earlier location of the prison, who's working there and 535 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: who's living there. Here's Lucasville's former warden, Arthur Tate. I 536 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: had eight hundred employees when I first went there in 537 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: un less than five of those employees were a minority. 538 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:10,240 Speaker 1: The inmate population, on the other hand, was over African 539 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: American and there's just no question that was an issue. 540 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: Was it an issue for the riot? I would say yes, 541 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: it was an underlying issue. Here's George. Basically most of 542 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: the guards down there at the time were affiliated with 543 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 1: the Indian brother and wouldn't take He basically didn't have 544 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: good control over the conditions down there. It's almost like 545 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: he encouraged the racial tension I was down at the 546 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: time because he didn't do anything basically to alleviate it. 547 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: Most of the white guards down there, they had the 548 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: light in boats tattooed on their neck, and you know, 549 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: they didn't have no problem making sure they supplied the 550 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: air and Brotherhood inmates down there with whatever weapons they 551 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 1: needed that as far as knife, whatever they need it 552 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: down and they made sure that they're supplied with that. 553 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: Tokyo Morgan was also serving time at Lucasville back then. 554 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: He lived in K Block at the time of the uprising. 555 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: You met him briefly in episode one. Today, Tokyo owns 556 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: a successful landscaping business he's had for the last seven years. 557 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: The parties are the pretty knives and there in give 558 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: to the white guys and they can stay up all 559 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 1: black guys. You knew that for sure, and therefore affect 560 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: of the boys of the Knife had a price tag on. 561 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,760 Speaker 1: You will get that from the store. As we mentioned earlier, 562 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: another major problem at Lucasville was overcrowding. Lucasville was only 563 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: built to house just over fift hundred prisoners, all meant 564 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: to be single celled, meaning one person per eight by 565 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: ten cell. At the time of the uprising, there were 566 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 1: just over eighteen hundred prisoners, almost three hundred more prisoners 567 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: than it was designed to hold. Around eight hundred of 568 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: them were sharing cells. But it wasn't just the overcrowding 569 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: that was the issue. It was who prisoners were made 570 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: to live with. That's because Lucasville under the previous prison administration, 571 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: had been segregated based on race. In a prisoner files 572 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: a lawsuit challenging this very cell assignment policy. Then about 573 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: eight months after ward and Tate takes over, a federal 574 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 1: judge tells him he must integrate the prison. Arthur says 575 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,439 Speaker 1: he was shocked when he learned that less than two 576 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: percent of the inmate population was integrated. He was ready 577 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: to right the wrong, but he knew it wasn't going 578 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: to be easy. Well, can you imagine how difficult it was, 579 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: because let's just say, to call a guy in it's 580 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: been in prison twenty years, he's an old arian, and 581 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: tell him that, you know, starting tomorrow morning or tonight, 582 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to put an African American in with you, 583 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: going to have a new roommate tonight, one of them 584 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: will definitely kill the other one. In an environment like Lucasfield, 585 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: a potential powder keg for sure. Then there's the spark 586 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,240 Speaker 1: that may have set it all off. The departmenty side. 587 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: We're going to test all of our prisoners for tuberculosis. 588 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: Now that's a mandatory test, that's not optional. According to 589 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,720 Speaker 1: one of those post riot investigations, about a month before 590 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: the uprising, there is one reported case of TB at Lucasville. 591 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 1: And since prison is such a closed environment and TB 592 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: is so contagious prison officials in Columbus order the testing 593 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: to be done. I knew that this was a controversial topic. 594 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:53,399 Speaker 1: It was controversial specifically with the Muslim prisoner population. One 595 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty nine inmates were refusing the TB test, 596 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: it seems for reasons like basic distrust of the administration 597 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: and they didn't want to be guinea pigs. But for 598 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 1: the Sunni Muslim prisoners, they were objecting because, like we've 599 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 1: already mentioned, they believed the test contained alcohol and being 600 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: forced to consume alcohol in any form was a violation 601 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,320 Speaker 1: of their religious freedoms. So I'm getting all this intel 602 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: saying that, you know, the Muslims are really having a 603 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: problem with this, and so I thought, well, I'll just 604 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: have a meeting with him. April five, six days before 605 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: the uprising, Warden Tate meets with two Sunni Muslim prisoners 606 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 1: and Sadiq Abdullah Hassan there in mom or prayer leader. 607 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 1: Meeting did not go well. I'm a very direct person. 608 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I you probably figure that out already. I 609 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: don't mince my words. I told you guys, I said, look, 610 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: we're going to go forward with this test. You know, 611 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: I told them they are going to run the prison. 612 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: I run the prison. I told them that right to 613 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: their face. Two days later, Hassan writes Warden Tate a 614 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: letter or a kite as it's called in prison. It reads, 615 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: in part quote, the TV substance is unlawful for a 616 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 1: Muslim and an infringement on his right. A person can 617 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: be tested positive or negative by taking an X ray 618 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: test and or spitting into a cup. Hence, we have 619 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: no legal objections to this form of testing and pray 620 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,280 Speaker 1: you and your staff will accommodate us in this form 621 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,879 Speaker 1: of TV testing. Hassan goes on to say that he's 622 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: been told that these other forms of testing have been 623 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: done a at least one other Ohio prison. Then he 624 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: closes by thinking Warden Tate for his time and consideration. 625 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: So basically, Hassan is saying they're not objecting to being 626 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 1: tested for t B, they're just asking to be tested 627 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't contain alcohol. Hassan wrote you 628 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: a letter asking for alternate methods of testing. Not familiar 629 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: with that, Yeah, And I don't recall a letter from 630 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 1: him that week. Yeah, I don't recall. I mean, is 631 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: that part of the record. Yeah, I don't. I don't 632 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: recall the letter, and then you wrote back to him. 633 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: I have Arthur's letter back to Hassan. It reads, in 634 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: part quote, your options have been explained, and I expect 635 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,280 Speaker 1: full compliance to my orders for all inmates to be tested. 636 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: You are in no position to dictate to me how 637 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: you perceive this should occur. I am certainly hoping that 638 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: there will be minimal difficulties associated with this process. Arthur's 639 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:45,240 Speaker 1: position on the matter is clear. The testing is going forward. 640 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: So I drafted this plan, which I thought was a 641 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: really good plan. It entailed me locking the prison down 642 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,919 Speaker 1: on the Monday after Easter. I would have the prison 643 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: lockdown for three days Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. I had 644 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:08,240 Speaker 1: teams of staff that would be assigned to certain areas 645 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: to bring about this test effect. This test. Now, what 646 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: we were gonna do is go door to door. We 647 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: go door to door, break the door down, go in, 648 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: do the test. You know what the test is where 649 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,359 Speaker 1: they just eject a little bit of serum under your 650 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 1: skin and three days later you go back and have 651 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: it checked. As long as it's not read and irritated, 652 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: you're good to go. So anyway, this plan was shared 653 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: with the State Highway Patrol, with Central Office, my superiors 654 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 1: and approved. So the plan to go in for those 655 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:51,280 Speaker 1: three days. It means that potentially using force, the Muslims 656 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: were going to be given this test. Yes, well, someone 657 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 1: tips off Hassan and the Muslim community to Arthur's plan, 658 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: so that got out unbeknownst to me in prison, exploded 659 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:12,720 Speaker 1: on Easter Sunday. And I'm gonna say this, the tuberculosis 660 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: situation didn't It didn't cause the riot. It was the 661 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,320 Speaker 1: trigger for the riot. I mean, all the things that 662 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: we've talked about, I think feed into why the riot happened. 663 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 1: And uh, frankly not getting their way with regard to 664 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: the TV test. It's not a reason to have a 665 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: riot and kill ten people. It's unacceptable. I'll never accept that. 666 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: I don't lay awake at night worrying about that decision. 667 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: I know I didn't cause the riot. Here's George Faison 668 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: or Tate was so stubborn he wanted to do it 669 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: his way. The whole situation could have been avoided if 670 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,479 Speaker 1: he would have tested. Were willing to administer the test 671 00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,080 Speaker 1: another way, There wasn't against their religion. In December of 672 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: eight months after the uprising, Arthur Tate is asked to 673 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,399 Speaker 1: step down as warden at Lucasville. A few months later, 674 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,719 Speaker 1: he is hired to help open and run a new 675 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: prison in St. Clairsville, Ohio. Is there anything that you 676 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: would have done differently leading up to or during Uh? Well, 677 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 1: I might have just made the decision to walk away 678 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,360 Speaker 1: from my job in September of nine, knowing what I 679 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,280 Speaker 1: was going to get myself into. In terms of actually 680 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:37,359 Speaker 1: managing the riot, given the circumstances, I think we did 681 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: about as good as we could have done. I would 682 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,880 Speaker 1: have loved have stayed there. I mean, you know, looking 683 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,759 Speaker 1: back on that, I you know, I kind of get it. 684 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: I've heard that many of the prisoners at Lucasville back 685 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,719 Speaker 1: then referred to Arthur as King Arthur, and that he 686 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: was a total tyrant. To be honest, I was fully 687 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 1: prepared not to like him. The opposite was true, although 688 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,800 Speaker 1: serving time at Lucasville with him as warden versus interviewing 689 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,399 Speaker 1: him at his dining room table are two very different things, right. 690 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: I do wonder as the mayor or dictator of Lucasville, 691 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: Arthur must have had his finger on the pulse of 692 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,240 Speaker 1: the prison right, he must have known who the troublemakers 693 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 1: or model prisoners were, So I wanted to know what 694 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: does Arthur remember about Keith? Did you know Keith Lamar 695 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: prior to the uprising? Yes, I had not had any 696 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: problems with him. He says he is innocent. He did 697 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 1: not do anything that he's been accused of. I really 698 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 1: not familiar with all the specifics. The specifics of Keith's 699 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,240 Speaker 1: case span three decades and are quite involved. I've actually 700 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,839 Speaker 1: had multiple people tell me that this story is too 701 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,319 Speaker 1: big and I've bitten off way more than I can 702 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,320 Speaker 1: show I one or if they're right, for now, before 703 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: I get too far down the road, the destination is 704 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: on your right. Ohio State Penitentiary arrived. I need to 705 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,880 Speaker 1: speak with Keith in person, face to face for the 706 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 1: first time. Okay, I'm here, I am about to go 707 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: into the prison, and I'm kind of freaking out. Next 708 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:36,040 Speaker 1: time on the real killer, they had zero physical evidence, 709 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:43,120 Speaker 1: five brutal killings, just nothing doesn't matter for investigators keeps 710 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: their man. I'm not an angel, but that's not who 711 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 1: You've been accused of doing something that you know he 712 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:53,359 Speaker 1: hadn't done. But Lucasville isn't the only thing Keith's been 713 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,120 Speaker 1: accused of? Can you tell me about what happened in 714 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:06,920 Speaker 1: that shooting? To see photos and documents related to this 715 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:11,360 Speaker 1: season's story, check out The Real Killer podcast Instagram page. 716 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of a y R 717 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: Media and I Heart Radio, hosted by me Leah Rothman. 718 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 1: Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen. For A y 719 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 1: R Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive producer Paulina Williams, 720 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:40,760 Speaker 1: Senior Associate producer Jill pshas Nick, coordinator George Fom. Editing 721 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 1: and sound design by Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by 722 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:50,839 Speaker 1: Cameron Taggi. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobson. Studio engineering by 723 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: Anna Moolshan Legal counsel for a y R Media, Gianni Douglas, 724 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 1: executive producer for I Heart Radio. Maya Howe Word