1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Donald Trump owns the GOP 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: and its future. There's a good chance by the time 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: this podcast airs, former President Donald Trump will have been 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: indicted yet again, this time by a local prosecutor in 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: the state of Georgia for crimes related to his efforts 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: to sabotage the presidential election results there in twenty twenty. 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: This may feel like deja vous. Trump was also recently 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: indicted by the Justice Department for federal crimes related to 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: the January sixth siege at the US Capitol for Yes, 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: you guessed it, his efforts torpedo the twenty twenty vote. 13 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: The US is now in the unprecedented position of having 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: a man who has thus far been charged with seventy 15 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: eight crimes being the clear front runner for the Republican 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: Party's presidential nomination in twenty twenty four. There is a 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: swamp of issues to unravel around all of this, including 18 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: Trump's legal perils, the character and policies of a Republican 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: party he owns, and the future of American democracy. Joining 20 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: US today. To make sense of all of this is 21 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: Charlie Sykes. Charlie, a committed and confounded Republican, is the 22 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: editor of the commentary site The Bulwark and host of 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: The Bulwark Podcast. He's also a political analyst for MSNBC 24 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: and the author of several books, including How the Right 25 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: Lost Its Mind. Charlie, we have been overdue on crash course. 26 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: I'm happy to have you here today. 27 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you described me as confounded, because I 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 2: think that that's probably the best description. But it's great 29 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: to be here. 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've now been being confounded together for 31 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: several years now in the strange way our acquaintance and 32 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: friendship developed through the Trump era. I wanted to dig 33 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: in a little bit to your personal journey as a 34 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: GOP stalwart. But let's talk about the moment we're in 35 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: right now. As you say it there and as we 36 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: ponder all of this, how would you characterize the Trump 37 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: era in a succinct way if that's possible. 38 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: Well, truly bizarre. It can be less succinct than that. 39 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: You know, in many ways, Donald Trump is who we 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: always thought he was. We're at this extraordinary moment and 41 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 2: for those like you, who have been following him for many, many, 42 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: many years, you can trace the trajectory. This is the man, 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 2: this is his character, this is his stop So in 44 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 2: a sense that you know, even though it's shocking, it's 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: not really surprising. I think. What is truly amazing, though, 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: and I continue to be confounded by it, has been 47 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: the willingness of the Republican Party to go along with it. 48 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 2: I mean, it's one thing for Donald Trump to be 49 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 2: Donald Trump. It's something else for a major political party 50 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: to say, yeah, we're okay with that, time and time 51 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: and time again. How they have adjusted their standards, how 52 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: they've changed their position, how they've jettisoned their principles, all 53 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: in service of supporting Donald Trump. So that has been 54 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: an extraordinary thing to watch. And as you described, this 55 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: is a party that is completely enthralled with Donald Trump, 56 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: even knowing that next year he may be sitting in 57 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: four separate criminal trials. 58 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: Well, so how did we get here? How did we 59 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: get to this place where the court jester has become 60 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: a king? 61 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: Well that's something that I have been wrestling with for 62 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: a very long time, and I will confess to him 63 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 2: that even after doing this for seven years. I find 64 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: that question still to be puzzling because clearly, I mean, 65 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: the Republican Party has been trending in certain directions for 66 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: a long time. Its dysfunction was a pre existing condition, 67 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: and Donald Trump was both a symptom and accelerator of it. 68 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: I think that what happened was that the Republican Party 69 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: turned out to be less based on ideas than identity 70 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: than we thought. I remember having a conversation shortly after 71 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: the election with George will and we were both puzzling 72 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: over how did we get here? And this is back 73 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen, and I think it was George who said, 74 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 2: in retrospect, the people who actually cared about conservative ideas 75 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: and principles was a much smaller band of brothers and 76 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: sisters than we had expected. That many of the things 77 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: that we thought represented the conservative movement were really the high, 78 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: thin cross layer over something that was much more volatile 79 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 2: that Donald Trump, with his reptilian instinct, was able to 80 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: tap into. Watching what's happened though you and I sit 81 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: here in Wisconsin. When he first came on the scene, 82 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 2: Wisconsin Conservatives and Republicans saw him for what he was. 83 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 2: They weren't buying the clown car routine, and yet, like 84 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: Republicans all around the country, they made their peace with him. 85 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 2: Some did it out of fear, some did it because 86 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: it was transactional, because it was a Faustian bargain. I'm 87 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: thinking of Paul Ryan here, But some did it because 88 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: of conviction, because they liked what he was representing. And 89 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: so we've seen this trajectory one after another, willingness to 90 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: go along with Donald Trump, an unwillingness to call him out, 91 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: and the people that did actually call him out have 92 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: been exiled. And I think that that's part of the story, 93 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: is the watching what happened when one after another people 94 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: who stood up to Donald Trump were exiled, excommunicated, defeated 95 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: in primaries, and for a lot of Republicans, survival in 96 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: office became more important than being what they had claimed 97 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: to be for many years. 98 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: I want to come back to some of that a 99 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: little bit later in the show. You you mentioned Wisconsin 100 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: and what you saw on the ground in Wisconsin. You know, 101 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: you're a veteran of some of the various political trench 102 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: warfare that occurred in Wisconsin. No state is every perfect 103 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: avatar for things that happened at the national level. But 104 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: did any of the political battles in Washington give you 105 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: a sense that something like this might be coming at 106 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: the national level or did it feel completely other? 107 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: Well, I have to admit to you that I did 108 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: not see it coming. Only in retrospect is I think 109 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: it became more apparent what happened, because it did feel 110 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 2: like a black Swan event back in twenty sixteen. But 111 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 2: here in Wisconsin, we did feel for a long time 112 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 2: that we were kind of at the center of the 113 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 2: political universe. We were ground zero with you know, Scott 114 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: Walker and Act ten and variety of other things, including 115 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 2: the alliance between the Tea Party and the establishment of 116 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: the Republican Party. But in retrospect, what I think was 117 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: happening was the increased tribalization of politics, where the fight 118 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: became about the fight that after a while it became 119 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: increasingly us versus them, and nobody wanted to give any ground. So, 120 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 2: for example, you know, Act ten was this massive fight 121 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: about collective bargaining rights of public employees. Okay, well that's 122 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: an interesting issue. 123 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: You're referring to the Act ten debate in Wisconsin. 124 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, in Wisconsin, And it became this huge, huge, fight. 125 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: But after a while, I think people forgot what it 126 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: was about. Was it about that, or was it about, 127 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: you know, that we have to crush the opposition, And 128 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: so that sort of mentality persisted, and I think, you know, 129 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: has suffused the Republican Party, and I think that Donald 130 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 2: Trump has tapped into that, this US versus them, the 131 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: willingness to punch the hippies in the face, to hate 132 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: the right people, to hit the right erogenous zones of 133 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 2: political anger, because that was there. And I also think 134 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: that the incentive structures of Republican and conservative politics changed 135 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: radically with the rise of alternative media. Well, you know 136 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: Fox News. I was in talk radio. I thought we 137 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: were an alternative voice. But at a certain point, I 138 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: think conservative media became an alternative reality silo, almost impenetrable, 139 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: so that if you were to survive in Republican politics, 140 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: you had to play that bas And of course what 141 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: that meant was that the most extreme voices of outrage 142 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: tended to be rewarded, and people who were more interested 143 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: in public policy or statesmanship or that dirty word compromise 144 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: were shoved off to the side. And I think that 145 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: that really was a precursor to where we're at right now. 146 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: Along with the dirty word compromise, the dirty term public service, 147 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: the idea that you could go into politics because you 148 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: cared about publics of us and policy, and you could 149 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: deal make to enact well meaning public policy even if 150 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: people didn't agree one hundred percent well exactly. 151 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: This is again part of what happens when the entertainment 152 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: wing becomes dominant. And so should we be shocked that 153 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: a reality TV host recognizes that the Republican Party was 154 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: dominated by the entertainment as opposed to the policy wing. 155 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: And who is a bigger entertainer or you know, P. T. 156 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: Barnum of American politics than Donald Trump, Charlie. 157 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: As I mentioned, I'm really interested in your own journey 158 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: as an intellectual and a professional and a political observer 159 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: in terms of how you landed in the world. You've 160 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: been in Wisconsin. I think most of your life you 161 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: moved around a little bit as a kid before your 162 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: family settled in Fox Point. Your father was a journalist 163 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: who then ran for office as a Democrat. You eventually 164 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: found your way to college. I don't know. I think 165 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: you ran as a Democrat while you were in college. 166 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: Is that right? 167 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: That's true? 168 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, tell me a little bit. When you ran 169 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: as a Democrat, what were you trying to accomplish? She 170 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: were running against? Was it Stenson Brenner? 171 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: Yes, Jim Sinson Brenner and the great wisdom of the voters. 172 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: I think I got somebody like twenty three or twenty 173 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 2: four percent of the vote, which he never let me forget. 174 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: But you know, my father was very active in democratic politics. 175 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: He was Eugene McCarthy's campaign manager in nineteen sixty eight. 176 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: I was a page to the Democratic Convention in nineteen 177 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: sixty eight in Chicago. He was chairman of the Wisconsin 178 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: Civil Liberties Union. But I think that he became somewhat 179 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: disillusioned with what was happening on the left, particularly you know, 180 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 2: he again was quite anti war. He was a university professor. 181 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 2: When they wanted to shut down the university, he drew 182 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 2: the line, and I think stepped out of that particular tribe. 183 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: And so even though my formative years were in liberal 184 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: democratic circles, I think I inherited a certain contrariness from 185 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 2: him and began asking, you know, some questions about whether 186 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 2: these policies actually worked. You know, did many of these 187 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 2: policies have the results that they claimed to have or 188 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: was it really just sort of about feeling good about 189 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: yourself make a long story short. Back in the nineteen seventies, 190 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,719 Speaker 2: I know this seems shocking now, I really thought that 191 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 2: Conservatives were the party of ideas. You know. I read 192 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 2: people like George will and William F. Buckley Junior and 193 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: Charles Crowdhammer, and I thought these were people who were 194 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 2: asking provocative questions about important issues, and so gradually began 195 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: to drift away. And I will also say that as 196 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: a journalist, and I was a city hall reporter for 197 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: the Mawaukee Journal at the time covering urban issues, I 198 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: became quite disillusioned with sort of the progressive orthodoxies and 199 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: how urban policy was playing out. I mean, that seems 200 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: like a long time ago, but I was attracted by 201 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 2: what I thought was the intellectual rigor on the right. 202 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: And fast forward when I wrote my book after Trump's election, 203 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 2: How the Right Lost Its Mind. One of the things 204 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: that I was thinking about was how did this party 205 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: of ideas? And that's what Daniel Patrick moynihan actually at 206 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 2: one point thought, you know, the Republicans had become the 207 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: party of ideas? How did that party morph into the 208 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 2: party of Sean Hannity and Donald Trump and people like that, 209 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: people like Tommy Larren who bragged about never reading books. 210 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 2: So it has been a deeply disillusioning experience to watch 211 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: that long, long, long trajectory. 212 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, how did we get to a place where people 213 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: brag about not reading books? And I also don't breathe. 214 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 1: You got involved with journalism as a newspaper reporter, then 215 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: as a magazine writer, and then as a radio host, 216 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: and I guess moved away from electoral politics, I think 217 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: for you know, contemporary conservatives prior to Trump, the received 218 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: wisdom was the apotheosis of the conservative era, and the 219 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: Republican movement was the Ronald Reagan presidency, which was also 220 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: a presidency of ideas, and again, whether or not people 221 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: agree or disagree ideologically or around policy, it was ideas 222 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: wedded to action in the service of a population within 223 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: a party, and the people believing it trying to affect 224 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: positive results as they saw them, which is, of course, 225 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: is very different from where we are now. When you 226 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: look at the Reagan era, now, does that feel like 227 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: a naive little bubble that was about to get burst 228 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: because the country was on the cusp of such major 229 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: changes and shifts in how we communicate and do politics 230 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: that that kind of conservatism was going to get essentially parboiled. 231 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: I think that's actually fair. And also the conservative movement 232 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: in the Reagan era was a fragile coalition. I mean, 233 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: you had libertarians and traditional conservatives, you had a Chamber 234 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: of Commerce Republicans, but you also had social conservatives as well. 235 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: And you know, the Cold War was part of the 236 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 2: glue that held it all together, and the end of 237 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: the Cold War, that glue began to weaken. That didn't 238 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: become apparent immediately, but it became apparent over time. But 239 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: also I think that I became much more active in 240 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 2: sort of the later Reagan years. I mean, I actually, 241 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: I believe didn't really become active in conservative politics until 242 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: the late nineteen eighties when I started writing books about 243 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: higher education, and I was very interested in where conservative 244 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 2: ideas were going to go. And I guess I was 245 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: interested in reform conservatives like Jack Kemp and believe it 246 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: or not, Bill Bennett and. 247 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: Who erempowerment zones. Remember Jack Kemp, I do. 248 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: Remember empowerment zones. And there was a time when I 249 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: thought that was the future, as did people like Paul Ryan. 250 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: And so you know, Paul Ryan came out of that 251 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: movement as well, and they had a vision of the 252 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: conservative movement that it would be inclusive, that it wasn't 253 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: going to be identity based, that it was going to 254 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: believe in freedom and opportunity and common sense. And I 255 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: think that one of the things that happened in the 256 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: last few years is that entire tradition has been jettison. 257 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: I mean, that has been crushed, that has been reduced 258 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: to rubble. And you can just sort of see the 259 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 2: parallel tracks. There was a time when Paul Ryan was 260 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 2: the future of the Republican Party, right is Mitt Romney's VP. 261 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: He was the Speaker of the House. He was a 262 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 2: political and intellectual leader of the party, whether you agree 263 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: with him or don't agree with him. And then along 264 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: comes Donald Trump, and in what happened to the Republican Party, 265 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: Ryanism was soundly rejected. He is basically in far exile, 266 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 2: although he sits on the Fox Board, which we can 267 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: talk about later. And they decided to go along with 268 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 2: Donald Trump, who decided that nativism, racial identity politics, all 269 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: of that isolationism, hypernationalism, that that was the future of 270 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: the Republican Party, and so I do think that just 271 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: watching the party that decides that it's going to go 272 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: along with the Tucker Carlson approach as opposed to the 273 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: Jack Kemp approach, that's really part of the story. And 274 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: I obviously was very much on the wrong side of 275 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: that divide. 276 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: On that note, Charlie, I want to take a short 277 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: break to hear from one of our sponsors, and then 278 00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: we'll come back and pick up from that point. We're 279 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: back with Charlie Sykes, editor in chief of The Bulwark, 280 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: talking about the shambalic political era that we now inhabit. Charlie, 281 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: we were just talking about the Reagan era and what 282 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: it portended at the time and where we are now. 283 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: And you know, when I've thought about contemporary conservativeism and 284 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: the GOP, I sort of feel like you can draw 285 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: a line from say Barry Goldwater to Richard Nixon to 286 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan to Nut Gingrich to Sarah Palin to Donald 287 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: Trump in that there was an aggressive, vibrant, passionate hunger 288 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: for battle and an embrace of conservative values. But by 289 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: the time you get to Palin, I actually would argue 290 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: about the time you get to Nut Gingrich. You know, 291 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: I think Newton was a flamethrower. I think he introduced 292 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: a lot of the poisonous tribal warfare that you'd mentioned 293 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: seeing in Wisconsin. I think he brought that in. At 294 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: the national level, he got sort of temporarily Bill Clinton. 295 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: But you know, Sarah Palin comes onto the scene with 296 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: having absolutely nothing to say for her as a national 297 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: candidate other than she's photogenic and she's willing to say 298 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: outrageous stuff. And then you get Donald Trump, who has 299 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: nothing to say for him other than he is craven 300 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: and unhinged enough to say the worst kind of things 301 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: that appeal to people's worst sensibilities. How did we go 302 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: from Barry Goldwater to Donald Trump? 303 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: Okay, well that's a long story, and yeah, you can 304 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: draw the line, but I think there are multiple lines. 305 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: There are multiple different tracks there that are important, and 306 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 2: there's no question about it. Newt Gingrich was one of 307 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: the real turning points for the Republican Party. And by 308 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: the way, at one point I was contracted to be 309 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: his ghostwriter for his book and backed out because I thought, no, 310 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: this is not something. 311 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: I want to be as Thank you, Charlie. 312 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: Wait the notion that Sarah Palin should be the vice 313 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: president of the United State. She was very much kind 314 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: of a proto Trumpian figure. And one other name that 315 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: you didn't mention. Pat Buchanan represented a very instinctive strain 316 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 2: on the right that really has morphed into this sort 317 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: of national conservatism that we have now. But that was 318 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: not the dominant stream. Look, he always had the extremists 319 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: in the different camps, but until twenty sixteen, the center 320 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 2: always held. Pat Buchannan did not become the nominee. Sarah 321 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 2: Palin was not the nominee, and I don't think would 322 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: have become the nominee. But things had changed. People like 323 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 2: Nut Gingridge come along and said, you know, it ought 324 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: to be about smash mouth politics. You know, it ought 325 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 2: to be as aggressive as possible, including the politics of 326 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 2: personal destruction. But keep in mind that even with Nut Gingridge, 327 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 2: he was actually, you know, somewhat interested occasionally sporadically in 328 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 2: public policy. But you know, when he ran for president, 329 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: there were moments when he would surge in the polls, 330 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 2: but then things would settle back to earth. But everything 331 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 2: changed in twenty sixteen, and again I think we need 332 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 2: to come back to the environment, including the right wing 333 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 2: media ecosystem. I think it's important to remember that during 334 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: the Reagan presidency none of that existed. The fairness doctrine 335 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: was not repealed until the very end of the Reagan era. 336 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 2: There was no Rush Limbaugh, there was no Fox News 337 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: during the Reagan area. 338 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: No social media. There was no Facebook in Twitter. 339 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 2: So think about that what we think of it as 340 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 2: historically the high point of conservatism was all pre conservative media. 341 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: So Ronald Reagan had the ability to do things and 342 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 2: have a little bit more flexibility and play with ideas 343 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 2: in a way that became increasingly impossible. That's one of 344 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: the turning points where there were once guardrails, there was 345 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,239 Speaker 2: once an ability to say to the crackpots, stay in 346 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: the corner. By a decade or so ago, those crackpots 347 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 2: understood that they could be dominant. I mean, there's a 348 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 2: great story in John Bahner's book that he's told me 349 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 2: many times where when he became speaker, Michelle Bachman, who 350 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 2: was kind of a crackpot from Minnesota, came to him 351 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: and wanted a Plum Committee assignment, which was of course 352 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: a complete joke, and he was going to give it 353 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 2: to her. And he told her this, I'm the speaker, 354 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: you're a crackpot. Why should I listen to you? And 355 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 2: she said, well, I'm going to go to the host 356 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 2: on Fox News. And it was that moment that I 357 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: think he began to realize that again, the power had shifted. 358 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 2: The power had shifted from the establishment, The power had 359 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 2: shifted from the business community to the entertainment wing. It 360 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: was shifting from the big donors to the small donors. 361 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 2: Which sounds great, It sounds like it was going to be, 362 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 2: you know, a democratized system. Well, what it did was 363 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 2: that it set the stage for the Michelle Bachmans who 364 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 2: then have almost inevitably been succeeded by the Lauren Boberts 365 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: and the Marjorie Taylor Greens, who are now not only 366 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 2: not on the fringes but had been empowered by the 367 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: new Republican majority and celebrated. Right, So you can actually 368 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 2: kind of see how that happened. And then again you 369 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 2: had people, you know, Pat Buchanan, who was you know, 370 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: in a sense kind of excommunicated by William F. Buckley 371 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: Junior in National Review because of his anti semitism. There 372 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: was that lingering ability to say, people like the John 373 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 2: Birch Society and the KKK, and people who traffic in 374 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 2: things like some of the rhetoric that Pat Buchanan Traffick 375 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 2: had needed to be somewhat isolated, they could not be 376 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: considered to be conservatives in good standing. Well, those guardrails 377 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: are gone. There are no arbiters who can say I'm sorry, 378 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: that's beyond the pale. And as a result, there's almost 379 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 2: a competition now on the right who can be the 380 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 2: most outrageous, who can push the envelope the most, And 381 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 2: not only will they not be read out of the 382 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: conservative movement, they're likely to be rewarded by the small donors, 383 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: by media attention, and by this ecosystem that has now grown. 384 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: Up and that produced Donald Trump exactly. 385 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: And Donald Trump is very much a product of that, 386 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 2: as will his successors be. 387 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: When Trump began his current rise in twenty fifteen and 388 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: then to the election of twenty sixteen, what did you 389 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: think about it at the time as you watched that evolve. 390 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 2: Well, I was anti Trump long before he came down 391 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: the Golden escalator. When I was on the radio. 392 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: I can still remember it wasn't gold Charlie, Oh oh yeah, 393 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: I know you know that. I know you know that 394 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: the fake gold. 395 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 2: I remember back in twenty twelve when people were talking 396 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: about him. I actually did a segment on my radio show, 397 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 2: call In Show titled you cannot possibly be serious? And 398 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: I was a little surprised by the number of people 399 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 2: that were taking him seriously back then. But for people 400 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: who think that I have changed about this, I was 401 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: just rereading something I wrote in I think maybe August 402 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 2: of twenty fifteen about Donald Trump that he was basically 403 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 2: a cartoon image of everything the left said about the right, 404 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: and how absurd it was to even think about him 405 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 2: as the nominee. And I made it clear, I said, look, 406 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: he's a fraud, he's a serial liar, he has the 407 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 2: emotional vocabulary of a nine year old, and I certainly 408 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: don't want to put him in charge of you know, 409 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 2: the FBIJ, the CIA, but that's just kind of me. 410 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 2: It just seemed like an absurd idea. So I was 411 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 2: amazed at his rise that people really took him seriously. 412 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 2: And I had numerous conversations with other Republicans who most 413 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: Republicans in late twenty fifteen, you remember this, Tim completely agreed. 414 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 2: There was this vast consensus that, well, that's not going 415 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: to be him, and he's going to go away. I 416 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: remember if brains Prebus was a good friend who was 417 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: a former chairman of the Republican Party here in Wisconsin, 418 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: and we spoke frequently and he would say, don't worry, Charlie, 419 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: it's not going to happen. Trust me, there's no way 420 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 2: he's not going to be the nominee. Well, you know 421 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: the rest of the story here in Wisconsin. I mean, 422 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 2: he lost badly here in Wisconsin. He lost by double 423 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 2: digits to probably an even more deplorable candidate, Ted Cruz. 424 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 2: But I had a front row seat to watch one 425 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: by one Republicans make their peace with him and decide 426 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: that if he's the nominee, then and he's our guy, 427 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 2: and we have to vote for him. And no matter 428 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: how horribly he is, Hillary Clinton and all the Democrats 429 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 2: were so much worse. And so that's been the real 430 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 2: soul crushing part in which has continued for the last 431 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 2: seven years. Donald Trump, as I said before, Donald Trump 432 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: played out exactly as you would have expected him, because 433 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 2: character is destiny. But what's happened to Republicans and the 434 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 2: number of Republicans has been just truly extraordinary, and unfortunately 435 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 2: I don't see an end of that anytime soon, despite 436 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 2: all of the criminal charges. 437 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: How do you explain his appeal to Republicans? Because he's 438 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: not a conservative, He's an anarchist, he's not a conservative 439 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: by any definition of classic conservatism. He doesn't think about 440 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: tax policy. He goes back and forth on where he 441 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: is on taxes. He doesn't have a cohesive view of regulation. 442 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: He has no real foreign policy chops. You know, he's 443 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: certainly not aligned with the classic hawkish foreign policy stands. 444 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: He's idled himself up to dictators abroad that the Republican 445 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: Party would have absolutely shunned a generation ago. So what 446 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: is the appeal? 447 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, that is a great point, and 448 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 2: this is crucial to understand that Donald Trump was not 449 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: a conservative back then and meets no definition of conservative now. 450 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 2: And there was an interesting moment when Rush Limbaugh decided 451 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: that he was going to embrace him, and Rush Limbaugh 452 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 2: understood that Donald Trump was not a conservative and decided that, okay, 453 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: maybe being a conservative is not the most important thing. 454 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 2: And that was one of those, oh, this is interesting 455 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: moments because some of us actually had believed that conservatives 456 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 2: believed what they claimed to believe, that the Republican Party 457 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: was actually the party of ideas. What Donald Trump exposed 458 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 2: in many ways was that none of that was for real, 459 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 2: because if it was for real, he would not have 460 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 2: had any appeal. Right when he first emerged as a 461 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 2: presidential candidate, he was the definition of a rhino Republican 462 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 2: in name only. Normally you would figure that the immune 463 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 2: system of the Republican Party would say, yeah, we don't 464 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 2: want this guy for all the reasons you just articulated, 465 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: and instead they embraced him, which would suggest that the 466 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 2: leadership of the party were. 467 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: They were forced to embrace him to a certain extent 468 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: right because of the traction he had in media and 469 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: with voters. 470 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: Right, And part of this was, I mean, it's chicken 471 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 2: and egg, but I think the Republican Party had gotten 472 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 2: out of touch with its actual electoral base. And Donald 473 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: Trump was able to go into blue collar areas, rural areas, 474 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: and the things that he talked about, you know, blaming 475 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: things on immigrants, being able to play the race card 476 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 2: in a very non subtle way, actually had more appeal 477 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 2: than a lot of us would have liked to have believed. 478 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: And so for the voting base, they decided this is exciting. Also, 479 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: you had millions of people that had watched him on 480 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 2: television and thought he was a really smart guy. They 481 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: thought he was a successful businessman. They believed that. Now 482 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 2: the political class didn't necessarily understand that. But they started 483 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 2: going out and realizing that if you attack Donald Trump, 484 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: you're going to get this massive blowback. And so that 485 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 2: process of capitulation and then fear is really a political 486 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: party that realized it didn't understand its own voting base 487 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: and then and now is afraid of its own voting base. 488 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: Racism is exciting. Good job America. You know, that's like 489 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: another lesson of the Trump era. You know, there's another 490 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: thing that's completely stark about Trump, Charlie, is his lawlessness. 491 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: And I want to talk about that when we return 492 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: from another break with our sponsor, and we're back with 493 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: Charlie Sykes talking about Republican politics in the Trump era. 494 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: In my experience of Donald Trump, Charlie, I've always thought 495 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: of him as flagrantly lawless. Yet his supporters and enablers 496 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: have been willing to accept that and even revel in it, 497 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: often because he traffics very deftly, I think in their 498 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: aspirations and resentments. You know, his most devoted followers see 499 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: him as an authentic and dedicated advocate, and his most 500 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: forgiving allies, particularly Republicans who know better, see him as 501 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: a useful idiot. Feel free to disagree with that take, 502 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: but I'm interested in why you also think he's getting 503 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: away with being lawless in addition to all the other 504 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: things we've talked about him getting away with. 505 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: Well, this is an extremely interesting question, and nobody knows 506 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 2: Donald Trump better than you do, Tim, But the appeal 507 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 2: is interesting because there was a while which you could argue, well, 508 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 2: Republicans are going along with him in spite of his lawlessness, 509 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: you know, in spite of his character and his willingness 510 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 2: to break norms. I think we're now at the point 511 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: now where there's a large segment of the right for 512 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: whom that's not a glitch. They like, that is a feature. 513 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 2: It's not in spite of all of that. It's largely 514 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: because of that, because that makes him look like he 515 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: is a political fighter. One of the things that he's 516 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 2: done very effectively has been to say, look, they're not 517 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: coming after me, they're coming after you. So that any 518 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: of the indictments, he can sort of wrap himself in 519 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 2: the mantle and he's like leaning into this now, saying, 520 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 2: you know, this is a badge of honor. I'm being 521 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: indicted for you. And people believe all of that. But again, 522 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 2: let's not underestimate the shock of your question, because it 523 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,719 Speaker 2: was not that long ago that someone in American politics 524 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: who'd been accused of even a fraction of the things 525 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 2: that Donald Trump has been accused of would have been disqualified. 526 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 2: I mean, there were people within our memory who were 527 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: exiled by the Republican Party for just saying things about rape. 528 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: Now Donald Trump has been found liable for sexual assault 529 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: in a civil trial in federal court, and it's not 530 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: even a blip. So it's also amazing when you think 531 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: about the fact that this is the party of law 532 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: and order, and yet because they're so desperate to support 533 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: Donald Trump, this has now become the party that wants 534 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 2: to defund the Department of Justice in the FBI. I mean, 535 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 2: none of this was inevitable, and it was not inevitable 536 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 2: that evangelical Christians would go from the demographic group that 537 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: was most concerned about individual character to the demographic group 538 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: that is most likely to say that personal character and 539 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: virtue is not crucial for elected office. So you've seen 540 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: this absolute inversion of these principles, in these values in 541 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 2: a little bit more than half a decade, and that 542 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 2: is remarkable, and people are still shocked by it. I mean, 543 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: I think that there was a sense in the Republican Party, 544 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 2: even on the you know, in Desanta's world, that somehow 545 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: all he needed to do is sort of, you know, 546 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 2: stand there and these indictments would come down and magically 547 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: take Donald Trump away. Remember that, I mean, were old 548 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: enough to remember when people thought, well, donald Trump is 549 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: face seeing all these felony indictments, Well then, I mean, obviously, 550 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: you know, Republican voters are going to be disillusioned. There'd 551 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 2: be the cumulative weight of this and they would back away. 552 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: In fact, what we're seeing is that he's getting stronger 553 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 2: within the Republican circles the more lawless he is. And 554 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: again add that to the long list of shocking things 555 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: that we are experiencing as a result of Donald Trump 556 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: and this transformation of conservatism in the Republican Party. 557 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: You know, in addition to his embrace of lawlessness, the 558 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: other thing that makes him dangerous and difficult and unmanageable 559 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: in the political processes. He has no shame and no 560 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: guilt and no contract, so he can sort of sit 561 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: at home counting his chips, thinking, well, you know, Linda 562 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: laruche ran for president from jail. That might be a 563 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: good experience for me. I wouldn't mind running for the 564 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: presidency from jail. And I don't really care that I 565 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: broke the law, and I don't care that anyone says 566 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: bad things about me. I'm just going to revel in 567 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: burning down the house, because if people don't like me, 568 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: that's what I do. I burn things down. And the 569 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: recent federal indictment related to January sixth accuses him of 570 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: three primary conspiracies, you know, defrauding the US to disrupt 571 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: the certification of the twenty twenty election, depriving people of 572 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: the right to have their votes counted, and other alleged crimes. 573 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: And it's just flagrant authoritarianism, and it's flagrantly anti democratic. 574 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: And yet again the party and his supporters are fine 575 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,239 Speaker 1: with that. And I sort of wonder, when does that 576 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: music stop. Who are the adults in the room in 577 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: the GOP that decides there's an intervention that's necessary. 578 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 2: I've been waiting for that moment. I mean, we've all 579 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: been thinking about, you know, that moment when Barry Goldwater 580 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 2: and other Republicans went to see Richard Nixon and said, Okay, 581 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: it's all over. Hard to imagine that happening. Mitch McConnell 582 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 2: certainly had that opportunity in January of twenty twenty one, 583 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 2: and he whiffed on it. But I mean, think about 584 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 2: where we're at right now. Look at Donald Trump's resume 585 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: right now. You know, conspiracy, fraud, obstruction, espionage, maybe racketeering 586 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: next week, and the Republican Party is completely okay with it. No, 587 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: you're not overstating the case because I think I was 588 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: on Morning Joe and said, look, we had need to 589 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 2: understand that we need to believe Donald Trump when he 590 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 2: says that he's going to do some of the things, 591 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 2: when he says that he is running to be your retribution, 592 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 2: that he would weaponize the Department of Justice, that he 593 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 2: would gut the nation's intelligence agencies, and that he would 594 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: make the federal government do an instrument of his own 595 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: personal power. Trump two point zero would be exponentially more 596 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: dangerous than Trump one point Oh, there's no question about it, 597 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: for the reasons that you so ably articulated there. So 598 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: I said this, and there was some social media pushback 599 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 2: on it, but it was interesting the number of people 600 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: on the right who were saying, ah, they're afraid, they 601 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: get it. This stuff excites me. What excites me is 602 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 2: that Trump will burn it down. So therefore evan people 603 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 2: going Okay, that's going too far, that's too extreme. He 604 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: has tapped into something and perhaps nurtured it where they 605 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: liked that idea that he will do all the things 606 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: that he's going to say. I mean, the projection going 607 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: on right now where he's accusing Joe Biden of weaponizing 608 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 2: the Justice Department to come after him is of course 609 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: deeply ironic. 610 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: The man who coined lock her Up. 611 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 2: Well exactly, and is even now saying that Bill Barr 612 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 2: was a coward when he was Attorney General for not 613 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: charging Democrats. So when he says he's going to do 614 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 2: these things, I think this time around, this is one 615 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 2: of those rare moments where I think we actually ought 616 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 2: to think he's telling the truth and believe him. 617 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: You know, the discussion about how this recent string of 618 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: indictments and negative court experiences for Trump, particularly in the 619 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: EG and Caroll case, that voters are either numb to 620 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: these it doesn't matter to his supporters putting them aside, 621 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: but others say independents who need to be persuaded as 622 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: we waded into the twenty twenty four election, that they're 623 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: sort of numb to all of this. By this point, 624 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: there's been so much of it that no one tunes 625 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: in and no one cares. And I get that. But 626 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: a couple of counterpoints that have sort of popped up 627 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: for me recently as I've thought about that. One is 628 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: that a lot of that was said about the January 629 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 1: sixth investigation until it was televised, and then once all 630 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: of those months of boring leaks to the press and 631 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: people didn't want to hear any more about January sixth, 632 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 1: then the hearings happened, and it was an extraordinary televised moment, 633 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: and it was educational, and I think it changed people's minds. 634 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: And while the Alvin Bragg indictment was thin and people 635 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: thought that Trump was being bullied, the mar al Lago 636 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: indictment was not. You know, the federal indictment. I'm piolating 637 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: the Espionage Act and other issues, and in fact, I 638 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: think his numbers went down after the mar A Lago indictment. 639 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: And what I'm getting at here is, while all of 640 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: this is in the news right now, Donald Trump could 641 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: go on trial, and if that trial is publicized, and 642 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: if this does get tested in a public forum, I 643 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: do think that it could result in a very different 644 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: take on him than what we're currently seeing, although we'd 645 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: have to get to that point. 646 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 2: Okay, well, I agree with you, and let me give 647 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 2: you both sides of that issue. I mean number one, 648 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: and I think my colleague Mona Charon wrote about this 649 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,439 Speaker 2: last week. We need to remind ourselves there are still 650 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 2: millions of people that don't really follow this the way 651 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: we do. Do not know all the details, have not 652 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 2: heard this evidence, do not know how many Republicans will 653 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 2: be the witnesses here and in the trials. And you know, 654 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 2: the DC trial will be I always hesitate to engage 655 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 2: in height, but this will be the trial of the century. 656 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 2: There's a trial of the century. This is going to be. 657 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: It's going to be the OJ trial times ten, It's 658 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 2: going to be the January sixth Peerings, times one hundred 659 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 2: and twenty twenty four will basically be dominated by one 660 00:35:55,360 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 2: criminal trial after another. It will be the entire media cycle. 661 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 2: I have a hard time seeing how that helps Donald 662 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 2: Trump in a general election. From the Republican point of view, 663 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 2: you know you bought this ticket. You're gonna take the 664 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 2: ride because he may be convicted of felonies after you're 665 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 2: already locked into nominating him. He may show up here 666 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 2: in Milwaukee to accept the nomination wearing an ankle bracelet. 667 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 2: Now I imagine he's gonna step from behind the podium, 668 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: show off the ankle bracelet and say, I wear this 669 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 2: is a badge of honor. I'm wearing this for you. 670 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 2: But I don't think it's gonna play that well among 671 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 2: the swing voters. 672 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: And my ankle bracelet's made of gold. 673 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 2: That's right. It's the best ankle bracelet ever and the biggest. 674 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 2: Really the flip side is what happens if there's a mistrial, 675 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 2: What happens if there's a hung jury, What happens if 676 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 2: he's acquitted. What happens if higher courts throw out the charges? 677 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 2: What if he is exonerated by the legal system. But 678 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 2: on balance, I agree with you. I don't see how 679 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 2: this is a positive for him, and I don't think 680 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 2: we should underestimate the power of seeing these things on television. 681 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 2: And one thing I've learned in politics is there's always 682 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 2: that assumption that people are paying attention. The reality is 683 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 2: most people are still living their lives. They are not 684 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 2: glued to this. They could not even tell you what 685 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 2: he is charged with. They do not know the facts, 686 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 2: and many of them still won't after the trial. But 687 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 2: you know what, I don't think it's going to be 688 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,240 Speaker 2: possible to be an American in twenty twenty four without 689 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 2: knowing about Donald Trump's criminality. 690 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: I always like to ask guests at the end of 691 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: the show what they've learned in relation to the subject 692 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: we've talked about. So we've now had Donald Trump with 693 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: us for eight long years. If we go back to 694 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: his initial campaign in twenty fifteen, as you think back 695 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: on the arc of those eight years, what have you learned? 696 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 2: How many things I was wrong about? I was wrong 697 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 2: about many of the people that I put my faith in. 698 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 2: I was wrong about the people that I thought were allies, 699 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 2: and I was wrong about what the nature of the 700 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 2: Republican Party was. So I think one of the things 701 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 2: I have learned is the importance of epistemic modesty when 702 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: it comes to making any predictions about politics. 703 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: While you sound like you were trained by the Jesuits, 704 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,760 Speaker 1: you just actually introduced epistemology into a podcast discussion, Charlie. 705 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: But that's for another pod. 706 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 2: I felt you deserved it. 707 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: Well. We're also out of time, Charlie. Thank you for 708 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: joining us today. 709 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 2: Thank you, it has been so much fun. Thank you. 710 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: Tim. Charlie Sykes is the editor of the commentary site 711 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: The Bulwark and host of The Bulwark Podcast. He's also 712 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: a political analyst for MSNBC and the author of several books, 713 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: including How the Right Lost Its Mind. You can find 714 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: him on Twitter at Sykes Charlie. Here at crash Course, 715 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: we believe the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, 716 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: and always instructive. In today's Crash Course, I learned that 717 00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: even committed conservative analysts are just as confused about the 718 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: future of the Republican Party as I am. What did 719 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: you learn? We'd love to hear from you. You can 720 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion handle at Opinion or me 721 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: at Tim O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg crash Course. You 722 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening right now, 723 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: and please leave us a review that helps more people 724 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,760 Speaker 1: find the show. This episode was produced by the Indispensable Animasarakas, 725 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: Moses On Dam and Me. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrickson, 726 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: and we had editing help from Sage Bauman, Katie Boyce, 727 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: Jeff Grocott, Mike Nizza, and Christine Vanden Biler. Blake Maples 728 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: does our sound engineering, and our original theme song was 729 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: composed by Luis Gara. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back 730 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: next week with another crash course.