Speaker 1: We not only talk, but we communicate in a way
Speaker 1: that says more about how we feel about ourselves and
Speaker 1: trying to persuade somebody. And the first thing you should
Speaker 1: do is talk and communicate a set of ideas and
Speaker 1: values of where people live their lives, which is what
Speaker 1: anavates me, and I think this is the most important thing.
Speaker 2: Hi. Everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.
Speaker 2: I've known Rama Manuel for a very long time. He
Speaker 2: worked for Bill Clinton, he worked for Barack Obama, obviously,
Speaker 2: and in fact, I did a profile of him back
Speaker 2: in the day when I was on sixty Minutes. I
Speaker 2: got to know him so well, or at least research
Speaker 2: him so well that I knew the reason his middle
Speaker 2: finger is shorter than the others on his right hand
Speaker 2: is because he sliced it off in a meat slicer
Speaker 2: as a teenager when he was working at r v's Yes,
Speaker 2: true story. So it's very exciting for me to get
Speaker 2: a chance to catch up with him, to talk about
Speaker 2: what's going on in the country, to talk about the
Speaker 2: Trump administration and everything it's done, to talk about the
Speaker 2: Democratic Party and everything many people feel it hasn't done,
Speaker 2: and everything in between So Ram Emmanuel, welcome to next question.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming, and it's great to
Speaker 2: see you again. And I'm seeing a lot of you,
Speaker 2: No rom mister ambassador, Congressman, you've been on to keep
Speaker 2: a job. You've been on John Stewart, you were on
Speaker 2: Bill Maher, you were writing for the Washington Post, you
Speaker 2: just signed a deal with CNN, and of course most
Speaker 2: importantly you're sitting down with me. So the question is, yeah, that.
Speaker 1: Was like reversed order. We were building up.
Speaker 2: What gives are you running for president or something wrong?
Speaker 1: If I have something to say, I'll say that. But
Speaker 1: you know, well, first of all, you know an ambassador,
Speaker 1: you can't say anything.
Speaker 2: So I haven't feel newly liberated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to get out of jail card, so
Speaker 1: that's number one. But I also think things are at
Speaker 1: a critical juncture both of the country first and foremost,
Speaker 1: and also for the party. And I have you know,
Speaker 1: in when I was congressman and chair of the Democratic
Speaker 1: Congressional Campaign Committee, we had lost the two thousand presidential,
Speaker 1: the two thousand and two midterm, and the two thousand
Speaker 1: and four presidential kind of similar dire circumstances for the party.
Speaker 1: But I also think in the sense of what's at stake.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm going to run. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people are spending time appropriately, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously confronting Donald Trump.
Speaker 2: I mean thinking about running.
Speaker 1: No, well, they're kind of well, a lot of people
Speaker 1: just because I think there's so much at stake. That said,
Speaker 1: and that's going to work, you know in two thousand,
Speaker 1: if you thought about it in politics. In twenty twenty six,
Speaker 1: the midterms, it's a referendum on Donald Trump and the
Speaker 1: Republican leadership because they run both chambers, both sides of
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Avenue. But to get the public to give you
Speaker 1: the keys to the car between twenty twenty six and
Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight, you actually have to have a view
Speaker 1: of fighting Donald Trump but fighting for America. And I
Speaker 1: have both through my career working in congressman as mayor,
Speaker 1: but also President Obama's chief of staff and senior vice or.
Speaker 1: President Clinton thought a lot about education, healthcare, retirement, security.
Speaker 1: Those are things I've all worked on. To me, the
Speaker 1: thing that's most at risk is the American dream. It's
Speaker 1: not affordable to many people, it's not accessible to many people.
Speaker 1: And rather than just all they want is a shot,
Speaker 1: and I think, as I said before, they've gotten the shaft.
Speaker 1: And so I'm gonna spend my time and if I
Speaker 1: think about that and then think about what I've worked
Speaker 1: on and have something to offer, I'll think about it.
Speaker 1: But it's not a yes and no. That's what I
Speaker 1: you know, you'll know in your gut.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate how honest you are being wrong, because
Speaker 2: you know, I've had to.
Speaker 1: Because that's a rarity for an a magnumum no.
Speaker 2: But I've had to ask a lot of people, you know,
Speaker 2: during the course of my career, what are you going
Speaker 2: to do? And they hem and haw. But I think
Speaker 2: that's probably the most honest answer I've ever heard from somebody.
Speaker 1: Here's my thing, which is, look, I mean, I get
Speaker 1: the politics of fighting Trump because there's real stakes and
Speaker 1: real interests. But then if you think also about politics,
Speaker 1: you have to fight for the American people. And I'm
Speaker 1: gonna spend my time as I have on education first
Speaker 1: sex And I don't mean to go through my record,
Speaker 1: but like we were the first city to create free
Speaker 1: community college. You got to be average in Chicago post schools.
Speaker 1: We made both community college transportation and books free, get
Speaker 1: earn it. And also you couldn't get your high school
Speaker 1: diploma unless you had a letter of acceptance for me,
Speaker 1: either college, community college, or branch of the Armed forces
Speaker 1: or vocational school. So we made post high school universal
Speaker 1: for city to do it. And to me, those are
Speaker 1: like the essentials for access to the American dream. That
Speaker 1: not just your children. My children, they're gonna be Let's
Speaker 1: be honest, they're gonna be okay. I mean, you worry
Speaker 1: about them, but they're gonna be okay. They can have
Speaker 1: they got an education of loving home, they can navigate.
Speaker 1: For a lot of other children and families, that's not true.
Speaker 1: And I want my time is spent thinking about how
Speaker 1: do you make that dream accessible? And if I think
Speaker 1: I have an answer to that, then I'm gonna I'll
Speaker 1: do something. If I don't or it's not in your belly,
Speaker 1: I won't.
Speaker 2: There's so many things I want to talk to you about,
Speaker 2: but you mentioned the mid terms, so I'm curious, you know,
Speaker 2: are you thinking about what may happen? You're right, it
Speaker 2: is a referendum mont Donald Trump and the Republican Party.
Speaker 2: Do you think people are going to come out and droves,
Speaker 2: what do you predict for the midterms?
Speaker 1: So first of all, you you know, a month used
Speaker 1: to feel like a year. A week now feels like
Speaker 1: a year. So you're asking me, I want to be
Speaker 1: clear April twenty and twenty five about what's going to
Speaker 1: happen in November, October and November of twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1: A long time that said two things that are pretty
Speaker 1: self evident now can change. So I want to those
Speaker 1: are all my coveyasts. Now'll just run into it. The
Speaker 1: most fascinating thing of two weeks ago when there was
Speaker 1: Florida and Wisconsin. While all of it was fascinating, one
Speaker 1: was the Supreme Court election in Wisconsin. Wasn't just Milwaukee
Speaker 1: and Madison. There was depth in the roal areas. That wow. Second,
Speaker 1: the most fascinating thing to me was Ascambia County. It's
Speaker 1: in Matt Gates's district. That's where Pensacola is. It's fourteen
Speaker 1: percent veterans. The national average is six, so more than
Speaker 1: double veterans not counting active duty in Pensacola Navy. Donald
Speaker 1: Trump took it by nineteen points. That county. The Democrats
Speaker 1: won it plus three. It had been decades, decades since
Speaker 1: the last Democrat won it on a federal election. So
Speaker 1: you know, if I told you on the night Donald
Speaker 1: Trump was elected president that the new base for the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party would be you know, veterans of the arms,
Speaker 1: you would you would not have taken that bet. You
Speaker 1: wouldn't taken that bet. Never possible. The second thing that's
Speaker 1: fascinating to me is in twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: and twenty twenty four in special elections, the only way
Speaker 1: Democrats won was low turnout, high turnout. We did. Now
Speaker 1: every election since November has been very, very high turnout,
Speaker 1: and Democrats are short of the two Florida seats won everything.
Speaker 1: And so it's not totally dependent on a low turnout,
Speaker 1: high education voter for the Democrat. And so if you
Speaker 1: look at the data today, you look at consumer sentiment.
Speaker 1: I think the Trump vote that was anti Kamala and
Speaker 1: the swing slash independent voter that will make up congressional
Speaker 1: districts of the election work today. And I don't know
Speaker 1: the map like I used to, I would say the
Speaker 1: Democrats are going to take double digit numbers somewhere in
Speaker 1: the kind of ten to let's say mid fifteenths. The
Speaker 1: senate's a little rougher real estate, but you got the
Speaker 1: Virginia governor's race in twenty twenty five. I'd have to
Speaker 1: bet on the Democrats now, and then.
Speaker 2: There's navigat span Burger.
Speaker 1: But also I think you're gonna If I was doing
Speaker 1: the other races, I would just make sure every there's
Speaker 1: a Democratic name on every county can missioner, on every
Speaker 1: city council, on every alder minic, all every school board,
Speaker 1: have every nothing is left, because I think this has
Speaker 1: get as many surf and surfboards and surfers as there
Speaker 1: are and just fill it up because I think that's
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Yeah, given everything that we know,
Speaker 1: this April, we're doing this April, We're doing this interview.
Speaker 1: I always say this has a potential. You can feel
Speaker 1: the momentum of this wave building.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it's not too soon because
Speaker 2: everybody I interview are all my followers, you know, and
Speaker 2: I think they're a good bell weather rom about.
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you your feeling. I can tell
Speaker 1: you two people I know of your followers really seriously.
Speaker 1: Who one is my yoga instructor? She goes person pounding
Speaker 1: me to get on your show. Is my yoga instructor Amy's.
Speaker 2: And my yoga instructor, Well, tell her thank you, Yeah,
Speaker 2: tell her I appreciate it. But I am doing a
Speaker 2: lot of interviews and I get a lot of feedback
Speaker 2: from my followers, and I have, you know, a few
Speaker 2: million people who actually pay attention to the people I'm
Speaker 2: speaking with, and I would say the majority of people
Speaker 2: at least over the last several weeks. Now maybe there
Speaker 2: was a little glimmer of hope in Wisconsin and Florida recently,
Speaker 2: but they're like, what the hell is going on with
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party. We'll talk about the Republicans in a moment,
Speaker 2: but you know, words like feckless, you know, lacking direction,
Speaker 2: where's the leader? And I'm curious if you think that's
Speaker 2: a fair assessment.
Speaker 1: Yes and no, that's the honest answer. So one, I
Speaker 1: kind of I describe it as a tale of two parties.
Speaker 1: One is, I just gave you results out in the country.
Speaker 1: So there's Democratic voters, they're a leading and they're saying
Speaker 1: there's massive energy and not just among Democratic voters, but
Speaker 1: also voters who see the Democrats as a better option.
Speaker 1: So that's once part of the narrative, moment, part of
Speaker 1: the story, and shouldn't be ignore it because I mean,
Speaker 1: as I grew up with, both President Clinton and President
Speaker 1: Obama are kind of big part of my political education.
Speaker 1: You know, elections have consequences. You want a Supreme Court
Speaker 1: justice win an election, You want to pass the taxaization
Speaker 1: of favor working families pass win an election. That's you know,
Speaker 1: that's a So that's one side of the narrative. The
Speaker 1: other side is one is is I don't want to
Speaker 1: say limited to or constrained, but is around Washington. And
Speaker 1: I think given the speed in which they were dealing
Speaker 1: with incoming from President Trump, they got vertico. They couldn't
Speaker 1: tell up from down and you know, left from right,
Speaker 1: and they.
Speaker 2: It wasn't that the plan Stan, you.
Speaker 1: Know what that was his plan? Well, you got to
Speaker 1: have your plan, I mean, and so and I think,
Speaker 1: so let me then fast forward. And this is somewhat
Speaker 1: influenced because of my own view about how the continuing
Speaker 1: resolution the funding of government was not dealt with in
Speaker 1: about think it's six weeks if I mind calculations, right,
Speaker 1: they have to raise the deat limit and my general rules,
Speaker 1: I said this pre that in February on This was
Speaker 1: on the government funding one Karras Swisher's podcast. But I'll
Speaker 1: say here for the debt limit, I said, then you
Speaker 1: got to have principles. Well, you gotta have principles. My
Speaker 1: principles are I would do something on tariffs, claw back
Speaker 1: the power be on taxes, and see on healthcare. And
Speaker 1: if you want our support for raising the deat limit.
Speaker 1: We got three things. Now you don't meet them. You
Speaker 1: guys have all the gavels and you have all the microphones.
Speaker 2: That's your art of the deal man.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, yeah, you wanna art of the deal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's called win win. It's not called wind loose. You
Speaker 1: like to win loose. Well, we're not going to be
Speaker 1: on that side of the trade. Okay, So we want
Speaker 1: to claw back power on tariffs because you've actually sent
Speaker 1: the economy into a recession and working families have been
Speaker 1: there and stayed there and then now they're there really
Speaker 1: deeper down. B here's what we're going to do on
Speaker 1: tax This is it relates to the wealthy and well off.
Speaker 1: And here's what we're going to do is it relates
Speaker 1: to medicaid and premium support. You can't cut it to
Speaker 1: pay for tax cuts for you know, Jeff Bezos and
Speaker 1: Elon Musk and the rest of them. Forget about it.
Speaker 1: And that's the price. And if you don't like it,
Speaker 1: that's okay. You're in the majority in the House, you're
Speaker 1: the majority in the Senate. God willing and God bless
Speaker 1: you and so and I want to say, so when
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four, when new Gingrigh try to shut
Speaker 1: the government down.
Speaker 2: And contract with America, Yeah, we did contract.
Speaker 1: For America, right, well, it was a contract to America,
Speaker 1: that's how I remember it. But we had M squared
Speaker 1: E squared, Medicare and medicaid, education environment. Those are the principles,
Speaker 1: and that's you do that. You can't touch Medicare and medicaid.
Speaker 1: You can't cut education environment either. And in the end
Speaker 1: of the day, Gingrich had a fold. Fast forward to
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. Now these are around government shutdowns, slightly different
Speaker 1: also because working for a president's microphones slightly different than
Speaker 1: when you're in the minority in the House. In the
Speaker 1: House and the Senate, it was called the three piece
Speaker 1: premium support parents, kids on their healthcare and pre existing conditions,
Speaker 1: and so you have to have the principles you enunciate
Speaker 1: clearly ahead of time, so you can't do it forty
Speaker 1: eight hours beforehand. There's going to be a real need night.
Speaker 1: The Freedom Caucus doesn't like voting for these debtlimits, okay,
Speaker 1: which not like we like it either, but as Democrats,
Speaker 1: but if you want our vote, here's our principles, and
Speaker 1: they're pretty clear. Your tariffs have created nothing but havoc
Speaker 1: in people's lives and in the four to one ks
Speaker 1: and their savings and their college funds for their kids.
Speaker 1: And we don't think you should cut premium supports and
Speaker 1: medicate to do tax cuts for the rich. And here's
Speaker 1: what we want for tax cuts. And if not, well
Speaker 1: you know the Speaker and you know the Senate Majority
Speaker 1: leader and you can work it out with them. And
Speaker 1: that I think would give you the strength part that
Speaker 1: people are looking for in direction part the Democrats need
Speaker 1: to provide.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you owe some kind of counter narrative, right, well.
Speaker 1: I think. Look, my rule about politics when I work
Speaker 1: is what unifies your side and divides the other side.
Speaker 1: The House and Senate Republicans aren't too happy about tariffs.
Speaker 1: If you're from a agricultural driven state, so we can
Speaker 1: either you can either go with the president, or you
Speaker 1: can go with your state. You're in a rural state
Speaker 1: or you're in a tough congressional district. Try cutting Medicaid
Speaker 1: and see if your local hospital survives. So you can
Speaker 1: either be with President Trump or you can screw your
Speaker 1: local hospital and all the people in employees. And so
Speaker 1: my view is I have a very simple what unites
Speaker 1: our team and divides the other team.
Speaker 2: Do you think that calculation is finally getting to some
Speaker 2: Republicans who are like, holy shit, my loyalty to Donald
Speaker 2: Trump is going to cost me. It's not going to
Speaker 2: protect me.
Speaker 1: You know you say that, So let me the one
Speaker 1: thing I would say, Look, I'm surprised they've gone this
Speaker 1: far putting their principles in a lock box. And I look,
Speaker 1: there's very As a most ambassador, as chief of staff,
Speaker 1: they're very good. I mean I can say this about
Speaker 1: certain House members I worked with and certain senators Republicans.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about very decent people, smart people, care a
Speaker 1: great deal. I am shocked what they go along with.
Speaker 1: No Democrats. I mean, I mean, if we if any
Speaker 1: president tried anything like this on the tariffs or anything
Speaker 1: on the Justice Department and the FBI. Bill Clinton did
Speaker 1: not fire Louis Free. One of the one of the
Speaker 1: calculations was it backlash. I'm shocked at this. So I'm
Speaker 1: you know, you say to me, when will Liver I
Speaker 1: don't know when the repubonent's going to stand up. I'm
Speaker 1: like the last person asked. I'm like, you know, you
Speaker 1: must be firming your opinion. It's your principles you're flexible on.
Speaker 1: I've never seen anything.
Speaker 2: Like what's the explanation? You've been and watch.
Speaker 1: Primaries, fair of primaries.
Speaker 2: I think they're crave an addiction to power over premier.
Speaker 1: You know you did my biography. I mean I love
Speaker 1: public service. That's clear. Every senator and House member I
Speaker 1: talked to that's in a slightly marginal they all talk about.
Speaker 1: I was talking to one senator the other day. You
Speaker 1: raise all this money, you spent all this time working,
Speaker 1: and you hate the job. Really, so do what you
Speaker 1: want to know. At least fifty percent of the time,
Speaker 1: I get calculations about politics. I love politics. You weigh
Speaker 1: equities and the trade offs, but you literally spend all
Speaker 1: this time running around the country raising millions of millions
Speaker 1: of dollars with people you hope you sometimes you don't
Speaker 1: want to talk to ever again for a job you hate.
Speaker 2: It, doesn't they hate the job.
Speaker 1: A lot of people think a lot of part of
Speaker 1: Washington is specifically on the legislative side, is broken.
Speaker 2: Well, they're frustrated, but that doesn't mean they hate it, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they're frustrated. They went there with
Speaker 2: good intentions.
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, that's a good catch. Hate it's
Speaker 1: wing over and spilling over to the other side of
Speaker 1: the tracks. They're beyond frustrated because it doesn't do. They
Speaker 1: came to do stuff and with earnest interest. We may
Speaker 1: not agree on, but real earnest interest. And I worked
Speaker 1: with Republican senators and members of cars and Democrats. But
Speaker 1: it's just like broke, it's a broken institution that doesn't perform.
Speaker 2: Who do you see is the rising stars in the
Speaker 2: Democratic Party?
Speaker 1: Rom Well, there's a lot of talent, you know, once
Speaker 1: you start naming names.
Speaker 2: Can I name some names?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean, just to get your reaction. Sure, Corey Booker.
Speaker 1: We were mayors together, very eloquent, beyond eloquent, understands both
Speaker 1: big cities and a big state.
Speaker 2: Talent Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 1: Big fan of Gretchen, and I think she's managed if
Speaker 1: and again I don't mean to look to politics, but
Speaker 1: she managed a purple state effectively and dealt with the
Speaker 1: legislative branch and made it. I think a was kind
Speaker 1: of people forget this when everybody talks about the politics today.
Speaker 1: When she says is pay the damn build the damn roads,
Speaker 1: I mean she caught the mood of frustration. Well, Josh Shapiro,
Speaker 1: we were, you know, not only texting yesterday, but he
Speaker 1: called me on Tuesday. We were having a conversation. I'm
Speaker 1: a fan as well.
Speaker 2: Corey Booker is black. Obviously, you have Gretchen Whitmer, She's
Speaker 2: a woman. Josh Shapiro is Jewish. Do you think they
Speaker 2: could be elected?
Speaker 1: Yeah? You you know, so you cut it off there.
Speaker 1: I was thought, you so let me. I am going
Speaker 1: to go, so let me say why I think so?
Speaker 1: As Okay, rom Israel Emanuel I got elected in the
Speaker 1: north side of the city of Chicago. The predecessors that
Speaker 1: had the seat before me, Dan Rossenkowski, Roman Pucinski, Franken Nunzio,
Speaker 1: Mike Flanagan, present whole There's Mike Quigley and Rob Legoyevitch.
Speaker 1: That's Chicago, right, but no, no, which name does not
Speaker 1: fit in there? Yeah, Ram israelimant. It was a two
Speaker 1: percent Jewish community and when I ran for Congress, President
Speaker 1: Obama used to tease me I was a Birther before
Speaker 1: anybody I had showed my birth certificate. They had to
Speaker 1: proved that I was born in the country I could serve,
Speaker 1: and it was an issue. And it was only two
Speaker 1: The district was only two percent Jewish, and it got
Speaker 1: ugly because I was running principally against a Polish woman
Speaker 1: in a Polish district and some of her backers said
Speaker 1: some ugly things about my Judaism, and say, I'll say
Speaker 1: to you what I have said. Then I know the people.
Speaker 1: I met him in their l stops. I met him
Speaker 1: on their front stoops, good people raising their kids to
Speaker 1: know right from wrong, and I trust their judgment and
Speaker 1: it turned out right. When I was Ambassador to Japan,
Speaker 1: somebody had spray painted on the fence Nazi symbols, and
Speaker 1: the next day, still don't know who. Some neighbor went
Speaker 1: over and painted over. It never came forward. I've asked
Speaker 1: other so was there ugliness there was ugliness and there
Speaker 1: was a just generosity of spirit. So anti Semitism always
Speaker 1: existed always, It's just much more public and people think
Speaker 1: it's more acceptable.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: That's one thing we did work for President Obama. So yes,
Speaker 1: there's more than a chance for African American to get elected.
Speaker 1: What's interesting on women? This is it political? I'm probably
Speaker 1: going to get yelled at, so I should watch myself.
Speaker 1: But I'm here with you. What could go wrong? It's
Speaker 1: if you look at Europe Prime Minister Maloney in Italy,
Speaker 1: conservative margat Thatcher, conservative Chancellor Merkel, and Germany considered Christian
Speaker 1: Democratic Party in there put Scandinavia slightly as I So
Speaker 1: I could see in America where it's more likely the
Speaker 1: first female president comes out of the conservative philosophy than
Speaker 1: the progressive philosophy.
Speaker 2: Why is that?
Speaker 1: I just think it has more to do with the voters, etc.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, let me checkmate what I just said.
Speaker 1: A governor will have proven something that has a voice
Speaker 1: in the language of a chief executive. You know, a
Speaker 1: legislator thinks operates. When you run for president and when
Speaker 1: you're president, you have to project three qualities strength, confidence
Speaker 1: and optimism and it's more likely to come from a
Speaker 1: chief executive than a legislature, and the public's more likely
Speaker 1: to accept a former chief executive as a president than
Speaker 1: a legislature. And I could be proven wrong, but that's
Speaker 1: my take.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on
Speaker 2: the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast,
Speaker 2: and of course covering the news. And I know that
Speaker 2: to keep doing what I love, I need to start
Speaker 2: caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why
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Speaker 2: and support. My feet means and back are thanking me already.
Speaker 2: Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,
Speaker 2: or book your own free personalized fitting. I wanted to
Speaker 2: ask you about Pete Budhajedge because I think Pete is
Speaker 2: one of the most impressive politicians of modern times. I
Speaker 2: love the compliment, I love that he goes on Fox.
Speaker 2: I think he's extraordinarily eloquent. And again, I'm not getting
Speaker 2: into identity politics, but I am just as a practical matter,
Speaker 2: could a gay man, in your view, be elected president
Speaker 2: of the United States?
Speaker 1: Yes, really, I just you know, I got in a
Speaker 1: little trouble when I was ambassador. I know you found
Speaker 1: that hard to believe. There's a lot of characters for me.
Speaker 1: You yeah, but they're still an ally. Look at that
Speaker 1: three years later, there's still in a so you know,
Speaker 1: Japan's very conservative culture. I with other ambassadors, so I
Speaker 1: want to be very clear. It's like twenty of us
Speaker 1: when it came to LGBTQ legislation, kind of would let
Speaker 1: a public notion. This is right before the G seven
Speaker 1: happens in Hiroshima and they finally passed like their first
Speaker 1: piece of legislation on LGBTQ rights just basically no discrimination permitted.
Speaker 1: And it was always interesting to me that in Japan,
Speaker 1: like eighty some percent were pro gay marriage, but the legislative,
Speaker 1: the diet, their parliament had yet to pass it and
Speaker 1: still hasn't yet. In the United States, gay marriage is
Speaker 1: permitted by law, yet we don't have close to eighty
Speaker 1: percent for it. So in many ways our legal and
Speaker 1: political systems, we're ahead of our public opinion. They're their
Speaker 1: public opinion was ahead of their legal and political systems.
Speaker 1: So my own take is it is doable, but I
Speaker 1: think there's going to be a comfort level that has yet.
Speaker 1: And I know I'm gonna get yelled at, oh blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, But you're asking me a political question, so
Speaker 1: I'm giving you a political answer, not my personal views.
Speaker 1: Somebody that led the effort in both Chicago and Illinois
Speaker 1: for the recognition of marriage equality. But I think politically
Speaker 1: it's going to happen. Just don't think it's going to
Speaker 1: happen immediately.
Speaker 2: Another person that people are speculating about is Gavin Newsome,
Speaker 2: and that's nothing new, but he has a podcast and
Speaker 2: I'm curious how you feel wrong about him, and.
Speaker 1: Biting taping with him tomorrow, so I feel very good.
Speaker 1: His guest selection is brilliant, you know, he.
Speaker 2: Said, other than you, he's had people like Steve Bannon,
Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk. People think it's making a play to be,
Speaker 2: you know, less progressive, kind of open crossing the aisle
Speaker 2: whatever however you want to describe it, you know, And
Speaker 2: there's this sort of whole philosophy I think illustrated by
Speaker 2: Bill Maher's visit to Donald Trump in the White House,
Speaker 2: like how much do you engage with the other side?
Speaker 2: And I'm just curious about first of all, you know,
Speaker 2: Gavin having those people on his podcasts and Bill Maher
Speaker 2: going to dinner with Donald Trump and saying he was
Speaker 2: gracious and he's not a crazy guy. He just plays
Speaker 2: a crazy guy on TV. Now he was critical about
Speaker 2: other things, but basically saying, listen, we've got to reach
Speaker 2: across the aisle. And you know, if you truly believe
Speaker 2: democracy is at risk and the things that are being
Speaker 2: done are morally corrupt, what is the best way to
Speaker 2: approach it being conciliatory or just you being the resistance.
Speaker 1: You are asking a middle child of three boys, because
Speaker 1: I used to say the middle children wrote a book
Speaker 1: War or Peace. We could do either. So let me
Speaker 1: just you know, I'm going to give you a story,
Speaker 1: an anecdote to illustrate a point. I was one that
Speaker 1: convinced President Obama to put Ray la Hood, Republican congressman
Speaker 1: from Illinois, in his cabinet. Now, Ray and I became
Speaker 1: dear friends. Why we used to fly back after congressional votes,
Speaker 1: and he was always trying to catch a flight to Peoria.
Speaker 1: We'd land and ohere and one time he's trying to
Speaker 1: make a short connection and I was like at eight
Speaker 1: C and he was like at twenty eight. So I
Speaker 1: went back. I said, hey, Ray, you got to catch
Speaker 1: that flight. I said, when you take my seat, I'll
Speaker 1: just because I'm going to just take the train home.
Speaker 1: And then we started up this friendship. That friendship led
Speaker 1: not just to Ray getting the cabinet slot and we're
Speaker 1: still dear friends, but more importantly, every other Wednesday when
Speaker 1: we were in Washington for votes, he would have six
Speaker 1: Republican congressmen. I would have six Dimorans. So we used
Speaker 1: to do private dinners quiet. When I say private, just upstairs,
Speaker 1: ties down, sleeves rolled up, and we just let at it.
Speaker 1: And it was six d's six hours and it was
Speaker 1: different every time. And there's a lot there's friendships there,
Speaker 1: and we built friendships. There's not a profile story that's
Speaker 1: done in my tenure that Senator Dan Sullivan, Republican from Alaska,
Speaker 1: Susan Collins is a good friend in that effort Todd
Speaker 1: Young out of Indiana. So I do believe in not
Speaker 1: only keeping those channels open. A lot of those people
Speaker 1: when things have happened or asked for clarity or talks
Speaker 1: to discussions. Also true about you know, Alan Simpson who
Speaker 1: just passed away. So I don't think you can you
Speaker 1: can have disagreements, I don't you want to use the
Speaker 1: cliche or you could disagree without being disagreeable, but that's
Speaker 1: kind of an apropos distinction. And not only and then
Speaker 1: also for politics, because I mean, if you don't have communication,
Speaker 1: you're gonna have misunderstanding and that can lead to a
Speaker 1: bad place. But also sometimes you're gonna build up in
Speaker 1: your head of perception and they're gonna explain to you, A,
Speaker 1: that's not the motivation, and B here's my actual bottom lines.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of yes and no, and it's both
Speaker 1: and we'll have you know. And if we're going to disagree,
Speaker 1: it's okay. We'll just go slug it out on election day.
Speaker 1: That's okay. But there's other things that when you cross
Speaker 1: a line of certain things and they're principled, no, lie,
Speaker 1: that's it. And so you I can't give you here's
Speaker 1: a hard and fast rule. I suppose if I say that,
Speaker 1: and then here's my hard and fast rule. Right, always
Speaker 1: have a line of communication that people know how to
Speaker 1: talk to because then no, there's no misunderstandings. And I'm
Speaker 1: thinking in the context of one of either House to
Speaker 1: Senate or White House to the legislative branch. And you know,
Speaker 1: worst case scenario, I say something to you which you
Speaker 1: don't want to hear, and you say something to me
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear. That's the worst case center.
Speaker 2: So you would have dinner with Donald Trump if he invited.
Speaker 1: I probably bring a food taster. But yeah, for him, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would sit down with him. You know, if he
Speaker 1: says something, and I would tell you. But nobody's ever
Speaker 1: described Rama Manuel as shy in reserve. I tell him
Speaker 1: what I think, and I think what he's done in
Speaker 1: the divisiveness of America at the very time. I think
Speaker 1: what he's done on these tariffs and what it's done
Speaker 1: to families is horrible. At every great juncture in America
Speaker 1: when we've had divisions, we've had been blessed by presidents
Speaker 1: who've found our foundation of common sense. And I think
Speaker 1: one of the there's no let me say this also
Speaker 1: is when I lived for three years overseas, there is
Speaker 1: nothing I see around the globe that scares me for America.
Speaker 1: But you go overseas. I learned a lot about Japan.
Speaker 1: I learned a lot about the end of Pacific. You
Speaker 1: know what I learned the most about America. And there's
Speaker 1: nothing that scares me about the future that if we're
Speaker 1: organized can and have a consensus about our interests in
Speaker 1: this country that were unstoppable. And it's one thing, you know,
Speaker 1: I want to tell you what I actually one thing
Speaker 1: is I'm thinking about I think this well and I
Speaker 1: wrote about it in two thousand and five. I think
Speaker 1: the country needs universal national service, Katie, our generation, we
Speaker 1: have a different runway.
Speaker 2: Who's the general whom Crystal and there's others, but he
Speaker 2: is really championing.
Speaker 1: I had him actually in Chicago for Chicago Stories podcast
Speaker 1: I did and it was that was my podcast when
Speaker 1: I was mayor, and we talked about this and I'm
Speaker 1: and the reason I say it is diversity is not
Speaker 1: a guaranteed strength has an incredible potential, but it also
Speaker 1: could be an adversary. Our adversaries are actually trying to
Speaker 1: divide America. And if you don't have an agreement on
Speaker 1: the foundation, the diversity doesn't work for you. If you do,
Speaker 1: it's incredible strength. And when I looked at like the
Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln and the Ronald Reagan aircraft carriers that were
Speaker 1: in Japan when I was there. Started under round regular
Speaker 1: foreign citizens can serve our armed forces or in their citizenship.
Speaker 1: And I did a citizenship ceremony seventeen individuals, eleven countries,
Speaker 1: three continents. Here are these people from the African continent,
Speaker 1: Latin you know, South America, except other parts of the world,
Speaker 1: into Pacific serving America's interests, it's national security, it's ideals,
Speaker 1: and weren't even citizens. And yet on that ship that
Speaker 1: has aircraft carriers five thousand plus people, it's like a
Speaker 1: little city there was seeing there was people from all
Speaker 1: part walks of life, all parts of the country, all faiths,
Speaker 1: but with a purpose and a mission and an agreement
Speaker 1: on their values. That's what the country needs. And I
Speaker 1: were not just in you know, this ship of state,
Speaker 1: except were more than just an aircraft carrier. I think
Speaker 1: what the country needs is that experience. Were a kid
Speaker 1: from the South side of Chicago and an individual from
Speaker 1: rural Arkansas where they're doing something together and it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be just a uniform. You can be and
Speaker 1: teach for America. You can be doing an environmental cleanup.
Speaker 1: You can do literacy, get us out of our silos. Well.
Speaker 1: So this is where both Iran and I don't mean
Speaker 1: to do this, So don't if you have stock and meta.
Speaker 1: But social media Facebook are dividing us. China, Russia and
Speaker 1: Iran are trying to exacerbate our differences. Social media has
Speaker 1: not brought us together. It has broken us down into little,
Speaker 1: little different categories. We have adopted that language and that idea,
Speaker 1: and we need to find what brings us together. And
Speaker 1: I think nothing does it like an experience, And I
Speaker 1: do believe. And then I say, this is a father
Speaker 1: with both a son active duty in the Navy and
Speaker 1: a daughter on reserve. There is something unifying to that
Speaker 1: experience that will be with them not just their time,
Speaker 1: but the rest of their lives. And rather than have
Speaker 1: a generation growing up on defining what the rights are,
Speaker 1: I like them to actually spend a little time also
Speaker 1: understanding appreciation with theirs responsibilities are. And I think that
Speaker 1: would make America a much stronger country. And then there's
Speaker 1: nothing China's doing that intimidates me. Once we get that
Speaker 1: worked out, do.
Speaker 2: You think that would ever happen?
Speaker 1: Yes? Really, yeah, But it requires an oval office leadership. Look,
Speaker 1: President Obama set up AmeriCorps in the first I think
Speaker 1: it's seven months of President Obama's tenure. We doubled. This
Speaker 1: was when Ted Kennedy was ill. He and John Mccainaanna Bill.
Speaker 1: We doubled the support for national service, both Peace Corps, AmeriCorps,
Speaker 1: et cetera. Absolutely. Now, I particularly have a bias towards
Speaker 1: the Armed services because of the needs. But I don't
Speaker 1: think a uniform and I do think it should be
Speaker 1: a mandatory six months of public service to the country,
Speaker 1: to your community, yes, and I do think the country
Speaker 1: would back it up.
Speaker 2: You mentioned President Obama. I'm sure you guys are still
Speaker 2: good friends. I mean, what does he think of what's
Speaker 2: going on wrong?
Speaker 1: I spent two years speaking for hum going to do
Speaker 1: it now, but I based on everything I know about
Speaker 1: his values, his interests, his beliefs, He's I'm sure fit
Speaker 1: to be tied about where we are both as a country,
Speaker 1: what we are doing to ourselves. This is self inflicted
Speaker 1: right now, nobody's done anything to us, So just take
Speaker 1: a step back. Tina hasn't done anything. Dorkorrea hasn't done anything.
Speaker 1: The biggest challenge we have in the world right now
Speaker 1: is America's credibility shot. You can't do squat without trust
Speaker 1: and credibility. We took our allies and treated him like crap,
Speaker 1: and they were poised to double down on America and
Speaker 1: double down on our collective interests, and we spit in
Speaker 1: their face. It's crazy.
Speaker 2: Why do you think Trump's doing what he's doing? You know,
Speaker 2: I think a lot of That's what I.
Speaker 1: Think President Obama would say, But he's here, he can
Speaker 1: speak for himself.
Speaker 2: Tell him he needs to do. Tell your yoga tones
Speaker 2: the instructor to call Barack Obama. Why do you think
Speaker 2: he's doing a lot of the stuff he's doing with tariffs,
Speaker 2: with you know, putin you know, all these different things.
Speaker 2: Everyone I think is really scratching their heads, like, what
Speaker 2: is the endgame? What is the point? Why are you
Speaker 2: doing this?
Speaker 1: No, it's interesting to me, So let me do one
Speaker 1: of You know, having been in the White House for
Speaker 1: eight years of my life, the one thing he talked
Speaker 1: constantly about was tariffs. The one thing they couldn't do
Speaker 1: is tariffs. The one thing he said, will never no no.
Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five is the one thing they knew
Speaker 1: how to execute, which I happen to think gives credit
Speaker 1: to the O and B director void. So it's weird
Speaker 1: to me that the thing he said mentioned most they
Speaker 1: had no idea what to do about. It's the most chaotic, disorganized,
Speaker 1: disruptive and on goal I've ever seen in politics, and
Speaker 1: has exposed the President of the United States is very
Speaker 1: weak and not consistent and if the mark could go
Speaker 1: sideways one day, he'll change his opinion and has shown
Speaker 1: all the vulnerability, no strength, and no consistency. On the
Speaker 1: other hand, the one thing he said I have nothing
Speaker 1: to do with that never never is the only thing
Speaker 1: they've executed with some kind of precision. So it's like
Speaker 1: a split personality to me, that's one which one did
Speaker 1: they either twenty twenty five, All the cuts, all the
Speaker 1: things that they're operating, all the people they are getting
Speaker 1: rid of, and the way they're going about it and
Speaker 1: freezing and tacks on universities, I can just go through
Speaker 1: the whole list with you. But that they's shut down
Speaker 1: during the campaign. How many times did he say in
Speaker 1: the campaign Trump the tariffs the most beautiful word, and
Speaker 1: he said it everywhere. I'm going to raise tariffs because tariffs.
Speaker 1: We're going to solve measles. From what I know, they
Speaker 1: can have that tech every day. Tariffs were going to
Speaker 1: solve every problem. You had a problem tariffs. You had
Speaker 1: this problem for tariffs.
Speaker 2: Well, he didn't believe them about Project twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: Then I didn't believe it ready breaking news. I didn't
Speaker 1: believe it word he said. And but to me, what's weird?
Speaker 1: He mentioned it all the time, and there was no
Speaker 1: strategic thought at all around it. The one thing he
Speaker 1: never mentions that I have nothing to do with is
Speaker 1: the one thing that there was strategy around. That's what's weird.
Speaker 1: So two strategy that's George Bush. Yeah, okay from Saturday
Speaker 1: Night Life. Uh no, he actually said, I know he did.
Speaker 1: Then they carried it out and made a kind of
Speaker 1: a nameplate. But the second thing is, and here's to me,
Speaker 1: what's so a component of what's reckless. We spent five
Speaker 1: years convincing both Europe and our allies into Pacific to
Speaker 1: ligne with US vis a vis isolating China, and they
Speaker 1: were all there. It was as as set a table
Speaker 1: as you could have, and we didn't really this White
Speaker 1: House specifically, the President did not appreciate how much China
Speaker 1: was in the jailhouse. They were exporting their own domestic
Speaker 1: economic problems, destroying their other countries, local industrial economies, and
Speaker 1: countries who are willing to organize around the United States
Speaker 1: and follow America's leadership. And now we're in a situation
Speaker 1: China gets a get out of jail card, we put
Speaker 1: ourselves back into jail, and we've made ourselves the problem.
Speaker 1: And China does it looks like the good, responsible adult,
Speaker 1: and we look like the drunken adult walking around.
Speaker 2: Which will lead a lot of countries into China's arms.
Speaker 1: Well, now we lead them into China's arms, lead them
Speaker 1: away from standing so solder with us. I'll give you
Speaker 1: one specific example. We spent I spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time on this. Our export controls of high technology against China,
Speaker 1: had Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and the Dutch standing socihoulders shoulder
Speaker 1: with the United States, and China felt it we set
Speaker 1: them back. Now a week ago, South Korea and Japan
Speaker 1: having spent lots of hours building that alliance with the
Speaker 1: United States at Camp David, we had an accomplished and
Speaker 1: though it was historic, China, South Korea, and Japan are
Speaker 1: aligning both their foreign policy and their economic interests against
Speaker 1: the United States. We're isolated and Samsung, one of the
Speaker 1: biggest producers of chips in the world, just to cut
Speaker 1: a deal with the Chinese company that is against the
Speaker 1: interests of the export controls. And why did that happen?
Speaker 1: Because nobody trusts the United States and right when you
Speaker 1: needed allies most we don't have any allies. Were the enemy,
Speaker 1: were the problem, And this didn't have to happen. It
Speaker 1: just this did not have to happen. That's what's so weird.
Speaker 1: It's literally we treated friend like foe, and we treated
Speaker 1: foe like friend. Putin is sitting over there and stole
Speaker 1: the president. Yes, I love your ceasefire, except for these
Speaker 1: twenty five conditions. And so you know, in the name
Speaker 1: of his Orthodox Christian church, he bombed people on Easter
Speaker 1: in Ukraine, killed thirty four people on Easter. It's a
Speaker 1: very Christian thing to do. And Putin knows there's no
Speaker 1: responsibility from the United States. Did you ever think your journals,
Speaker 1: you and I collectively here, what do we got about
Speaker 1: sixty years in watching or participating in the public lass. Okay,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, we're not going to do a real math. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to do it. Did you ever think in
Speaker 1: your lifetime the United States at the United Nations would
Speaker 1: vote with Russia, China, Belarus, North Korea, and Iran and
Speaker 1: all yeah, okay, well it just happened, and against England, France, Germany, Japan, Korea, Australia.
Speaker 1: We aligned ourselves in both principle and politics with Russia
Speaker 1: that represses and kills people, China that sent the vegas
Speaker 1: into camps and represses people, North Korea, belarusa has no
Speaker 1: freedoms and arrest and kills people as their own citizens.
Speaker 1: And all right, that's what we do. I knew. I
Speaker 1: if somebody had told me that was going to have
Speaker 1: I said, you take a cup and get it to
Speaker 1: the lab. Give me a break.
Speaker 2: What okay? So what the hell? Why? Because I've been
Speaker 2: talking to so many people who are experts on strong
Speaker 2: men and authoritarian governments, and is there an explanation other
Speaker 2: than the fact that Donald Trump wants to be a dictator?
Speaker 1: No? See you not? You kay, because it is your
Speaker 1: podcast and I'm not allowed to do that. But no,
Speaker 1: I'm not going there. There was always a short changing
Speaker 1: that it was just an affinity for styles of autocrats.
Speaker 1: There is that there is a component. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: he says, I like, g look how he controls one
Speaker 1: point four billion people. So there is an affinity for this.
Speaker 2: You mentioned Victor Orbon during the debate.
Speaker 1: Okay, but he also said that President Putin and him
Speaker 1: gone through a lot together. Who knew they were dating? Okay,
Speaker 1: but don't underestimate the philosophical agreement he does it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've said this literally three months ago and a piece
Speaker 1: in the Post. He has a strategic alignment with them
Speaker 1: about spheres of influence. That's all the only way you
Speaker 1: can explain Greenland, Canada, Panama and that whole idea. He
Speaker 1: believes Latin in Central North America and Central America and
Speaker 1: South America are America's sphere of influence into Pacific, that's
Speaker 1: China's pond. Europe, Well, keep going until it is not comfortable.
Speaker 1: And he he agrees with that. So does he stylistically
Speaker 1: like the strong man? Yes? Does he like the fact
Speaker 1: that they have critics get arrested, Yes, he does, but
Speaker 1: he also philosophically agrees with them. And here's the thing.
Speaker 2: More land, more influence, more power.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's an old politics. And here's what he
Speaker 1: doesn't understand. One. Putin and g are laughing at himse
Speaker 1: they're good at this game. This is not America's game.
Speaker 1: Hasn't been America's game a long time, over one hundred years.
Speaker 1: Our game is what we just did. The reason look, Poland,
Speaker 1: the Czech Republic, Lithuania, Finland, Sweden moved west into NATO.
Speaker 1: NATO didn't move east. They moved west because they prefer
Speaker 1: freedom versus the Russian bearer. They know it firsthand. They
Speaker 1: don't want it. Okay, he doesn't appreciate that, has no
Speaker 1: sensibility that. And on China, the reason our allies are
Speaker 1: working with us because they need a want and desire,
Speaker 1: a counterweight to an uncontrolled, untethered, uninhimbered China and America,
Speaker 1: through our allies, they're not burdens. They're force multiplayers at
Speaker 1: every level. The number one foreign investor in the United
Speaker 1: States of America US history for two hundred Japan four
Speaker 1: years in a row. One million Americans work for him.
Speaker 1: Forty eight percent of the investments are all in manufacturing.
Speaker 1: The single largest purchaser of American treasuries, which we're going
Speaker 1: to need a lot of Japan. Know what do we
Speaker 1: do spit in their face? Nope, you're going to see
Speaker 1: this what you know what your mother used to say,
Speaker 1: what goes around comes from right? How many times you
Speaker 1: hear that?
Speaker 2: How are you've gotten too big for your purchase?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And he's and he's now going to learn what
Speaker 1: it means. And America's alone, and he thinks he's going
Speaker 1: to play their game. That's not our game.
Speaker 2: And you don't think this is going to end well.
Speaker 1: No, I don't. I don't see how it can.
Speaker 2: Because he tries to turn bad qualities into good qualities.
Speaker 2: You know this, he'll come unpredictable, you know. And you
Speaker 2: I know you've said he's a terrible negotiator.
Speaker 1: But will you tell me he negotiated a deal with
Speaker 1: China and not one thing happened in it. That's a
Speaker 1: bad deal. He tried to He negotiated with North Korea?
Speaker 1: Not why? Because he wants it more than them. Tell
Speaker 1: me how?
Speaker 2: Let me ask you how Bannada, Mexico? And how's inflation going?
Speaker 1: Day one? How's you the peace in Ukraine? Day one?
Speaker 1: He wants to deal better than Putin. Some Putin knows it.
Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, it's me, Katie Couric. You know, if you've
Speaker 2: been following me on social media, you know I love
Speaker 2: to cook or at least try, especially alongside some of
Speaker 2: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,
Speaker 2: Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman, and Ininagarten. So I started a
Speaker 2: free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and
Speaker 2: kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com slash
Speaker 2: good Taste. That's k A t I E C O
Speaker 2: U r I c dot com slash good Taste. I
Speaker 2: promise your taste buds will be happy you did. Why
Speaker 2: do you think people still just worship him? I think
Speaker 2: there's a lot of Americans still do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, because I do think this gets back
Speaker 1: to kind of where we started on electoral politics.
Speaker 2: And the Democratic Party.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, about the Democrats and yes, So my take
Speaker 1: on twenty twenty four, Katie is there's two parts to it,
Speaker 1: or three rather one. When seventy percent of the country
Speaker 1: thinks it's heading in the wrong direction, that's just structurally
Speaker 1: against an incumbent. It got worse from Afghanistan and the
Speaker 1: more President Biden kept saying, oh the economy's good. The
Speaker 1: economy's good. The headwinds went from twenty miles an hour
Speaker 1: to seventy miles an hour. Second below that. I kind
Speaker 1: of think of it as two races. So President Biden's
Speaker 1: nine down, Kamala Harris gets tapped. She runs on the
Speaker 1: economy all right through the debate, and she goes to
Speaker 1: plus three. That's a she had an eleven point swing.
Speaker 1: That's not a statistical error. The day after the debate,
Speaker 1: it's like a schizophrenia. She goes from the economy to democracy.
Speaker 1: Now she cared about democracy, which you and I both do.
Speaker 1: We were yes on a low I can't speak for
Speaker 1: how you vote, but I can speak for me why
Speaker 1: we dropped? What got us eleven point twelve point swing?
Speaker 1: I have no idea third, which is then to the
Speaker 1: core of your question, which is there are three things
Speaker 1: in the last twenty years that I think change for America.
Speaker 1: I think this again gets to the core question of
Speaker 1: what I care most about, which is In two thousand
Speaker 1: and three, President Bush leads the country to a war
Speaker 1: of choice based on a lie there was no yellow
Speaker 1: cake from Niger. Still never Thousands of young men and
Speaker 1: women lose their lives and their livelihood, no needes, no arms, arms,
Speaker 1: and we spent a trillion dollars on a failed experiment
Speaker 1: built on a lie, and not one person ever held
Speaker 1: accountable for the worst foreign policy disaster in American history.
Speaker 1: Five years later, there's this massive financial meltdown. People lose
Speaker 1: their homes, and the fat bankers are asking for the
Speaker 1: demanding their bonuses, and not one of those sobs go
Speaker 1: to jail, and they're still like impervious that they shocked
Speaker 1: that nobody would give them their bonus. And people have
Speaker 1: no homes, they have no livelihood, they have no equity
Speaker 1: left for their retirement. So twice in a short period
Speaker 1: of time, both a lie and liar loans destroy people's lives,
Speaker 1: and nobody in the elite or in the establishment is
Speaker 1: held accountable. During President Bombas's tenure, I argued for this
Speaker 1: old testament justice that I believed we should have done
Speaker 1: before healthcare. But that's why the present could pay big
Speaker 1: bucks to make big decisions. Fast forward later, twelve years later,
Speaker 1: you have COVID and we're running and it's the most
Speaker 1: disruptive thing in people's lives. As I often said that
Speaker 1: COVID was bad for the body and not really great
Speaker 1: for the body politic either, and schools got disrupted, work
Speaker 1: habits got disrupted, people's just everything got turned. And Democrats
Speaker 1: went from the anti establishment against the war against bankers
Speaker 1: to scientists telling people how to live their lives closer.
Speaker 1: Schools just sit in the corner. This is what science.
Speaker 1: When I grew up in a medical home, you get
Speaker 1: a cut, you get a second opinion. And these scientists
Speaker 1: walked around like they were experts. They had never seen
Speaker 1: anything like this. Do you know this? I care deeply
Speaker 1: about this. Six months in we were and seek and
Speaker 1: I had massive arguments about this as former mayor with
Speaker 1: eighty four percent of the kids are from poverty. What
Speaker 1: are you doing closing schools? These kids are at home,
Speaker 1: no education, and we're seeing the consequence of it. And
Speaker 1: so you tell me why. As he said to President Trump,
Speaker 1: I will be the instrument of your rage. And people
Speaker 1: are angry, and you and I are doing this. In
Speaker 1: New York this interview, right not far from here, a
Speaker 1: ceo was shot killed. People cheered the killer. There was
Speaker 1: no like what happened to empathy. That tells you they
Speaker 1: never even met the ceo. They don't know and even
Speaker 1: some elected officials said, well, you can understand people's killing.
Speaker 1: And that's so when we think of politics, Well you
Speaker 1: study this college versus non college, urban versus rural, male
Speaker 1: versus female, black versus white. Well, I'll give you the
Speaker 1: biggest divide, establishment versus everybody else. And the everybody else
Speaker 1: is sick and tired of established walking around because they
Speaker 1: basically got three big things wrong and they feel like
Speaker 1: no culpability or accountability or which is like what I
Speaker 1: would do. I'm sorry we messed up. Not I didn't
Speaker 1: agree with the Iraq war. I was on the other
Speaker 1: side of the financial piece. But literally people have seen
Speaker 1: the elite never held accountable and domin.
Speaker 2: How do you hold people accountable for COVID? I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, I think people made their best decisions based
Speaker 2: on the information they had. And you'd be singing a
Speaker 2: very different song if a lot of kids had died
Speaker 2: of COVID but they just going to school.
Speaker 1: But here's of course I would. But it was self
Speaker 1: evident within six months.
Speaker 2: You're saying that data the data was.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, we closed the schools for two years.
Speaker 1: The data is evident. We're now at the worst reading
Speaker 1: and mass scores in thirty years, full stop. It's also
Speaker 1: evident kids that are in red states that open schools
Speaker 1: earlier are slightly better than kids that grew up in
Speaker 1: blu states and cities. Just it's a fact. You look
Speaker 1: at it, you get argued out. Third, within six months,
Speaker 1: it was getting to be very clear that if you
Speaker 1: didn't have pre existing conditions and you weren't elderly, the
Speaker 1: severity of COVID was very limited. It was very clear
Speaker 1: among young kids almost zero.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you, why do you think the establishment
Speaker 2: that you blamed for this was so slow to realize this?
Speaker 2: I mean, what was in it for them to keep
Speaker 2: kids out of school?
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, there's a tonal piece, let alone substantive. Okay, totally.
Speaker 1: You said, look, we don't have all the data, but
Speaker 1: what we're looking at, and a lot of people I
Speaker 1: get early on information, but a year into it you
Speaker 1: had patterns of information. You also, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: I don't mean to absolve the scientist. You had a
Speaker 1: president of United States talking about lysol and other things,
Speaker 1: and so you were running against the person with the
Speaker 1: biggest microphone each Bleach. I couldn't remember it was Bleacher myself,
Speaker 1: thank you for the ten yard penalty for being the
Speaker 1: wrong guest. So that to me was I do think.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that people had a nefarious motivation, but
Speaker 1: there was no sense that we were in uncharted territories,
Speaker 1: no sense that this is our best guest, and it
Speaker 1: was a guess. And when the data started becoming overwhelming,
Speaker 1: we didn't want to change our guests. So that's the
Speaker 1: rear view mirror. Now what's the windshield. I would be
Speaker 1: immediately going into one on one tutoring for kids that
Speaker 1: are behind, so you have to stay afterwards, We're going
Speaker 1: to have longer school days as it relates to reading
Speaker 1: time and math times until we catch up, including summer,
Speaker 1: so we don't let the summer read what's called the
Speaker 1: summer slide set in.
Speaker 2: Is that what Alabama and Mississippi are doing.
Speaker 1: One of the things they have done is both the
Speaker 1: the times have been more concentrated on topic. That's one
Speaker 1: kind of common theme. Two early intervention common theme, third
Speaker 1: back to fundamentals common theme, and using one on one
Speaker 1: time is a common theme. So yes, but there's patterns
Speaker 1: of success here, or rather not success success against the tide.
Speaker 1: But we need a national emergency. Now, when you go
Speaker 1: back to Ronald Reagan's A Nation at Risk Bloom report,
Speaker 1: then all the way to President Bush's Leave No Child Behind,
Speaker 1: President Obama's Race to the Top, President Clinton's Teachers of
Speaker 1: Excellence hundred thousand, everybody has had a touchstone of education
Speaker 1: reform and accountability that step by step over thirty years,
Speaker 1: we saw improvement for certain communities. We were at the
Speaker 1: top tier of international standards. Other communities, it was incremental
Speaker 1: but steady progress in the right to lace. We are
Speaker 1: at a thirty year reading loan, a thirty year mathful.
Speaker 1: Do you have that sense of emergency? Do you have
Speaker 1: that sense of crisis? You're shaking A. I don't think
Speaker 1: you could.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 1: But do you think hearing out of the national leaders, No, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: I do. I know you do. And yeah, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be here if I didn't know you share that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's no sense. Robert Reagan called together. There was
Speaker 1: the report on a Nation at Risk.
Speaker 2: Well they got rid of the Department of Education.
Speaker 1: Well they've starved it. President Bush did Leave No Child Behind,
Speaker 1: and the accountability and the testing, etcetera. You could have
Speaker 1: reformed that, but we threw it out.
Speaker 2: People hated that, well, they hated it because we went
Speaker 2: from to the test.
Speaker 1: Versus testing to teach. Testing was an information to inform teaching,
Speaker 1: and we were teaching to the test. That said, you
Speaker 1: didn't need to throw it all out. It's pretty clear
Speaker 1: that started a bad cycle. Margaret Spelling has done some
Speaker 1: really good, interesting work on this. President Obama had races
Speaker 1: at the top, but everything led to one place improvement
Speaker 1: on reading a mass course. To me, we are in
Speaker 1: that emergency moment now, and a president with a modicum
Speaker 1: of interest would call an emergency meeting say Okay, we're
Speaker 1: going to fight about taxes, we're going to fight about tariffs,
Speaker 1: kids reading, no politics, here's what we're going to have
Speaker 1: to do, and then hold the governors accountable for a
Speaker 1: ninety day plan on what they're going to do on
Speaker 1: one on one tutoring, basics, et cetera. But what do
Speaker 1: we do close Department of Education or starve at defunds.
Speaker 1: That's that's our answer to China.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you a couple more questions, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to let you go because I've been You've
Speaker 2: been so generous with your time. Wrong, But I want
Speaker 2: to ask you about Oh, good, good, I'm glad I
Speaker 2: could be here for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I left my Blue Cross and Blue Shield card.
Speaker 2: At the front desk, you know, for the rest of
Speaker 2: this administration. And perhaps if you listen to Steve Bannon
Speaker 2: another Trump term on a scale of one to ten,
Speaker 2: how nervous are you about the damage he could continue
Speaker 2: to do?
Speaker 1: So he has been president for eighty days. You got
Speaker 1: two hundred weeks left. So think of it that way.
Speaker 1: In eighty days, he's taken eighty years worth of work
Speaker 1: of building credibility through Democrat Republican presidence, Democrat Republican congresses,
Speaker 1: and he's severely damaged it. The single greatest crisis we
Speaker 1: have is not Chinas. Nobody believes or trusts America anymore.
Speaker 2: So you're talking about the international stage.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, that's one. I also think it's also true
Speaker 1: here at home. I think it's very true at home.
Speaker 1: And so when you say to me the core question
Speaker 1: not just internationally, but it's such an impact on what
Speaker 1: we're trying to do economically here at.
Speaker 2: Home, but also democratic norms and institutions, you know, like
Speaker 2: saying he's going to investigate Krebs because Chris said he
Speaker 2: didn't think the election was rigged totally. Uh, you know,
Speaker 2: weaponizing the Justice Department something he railed against all these
Speaker 2: things that are really you know, not listening to judges
Speaker 2: or be the little judges I'm talking about, like internally, Ron, well,
Speaker 2: you know, obviously internationally that's a huge concern. And I
Speaker 2: can see how your view has been expanded by your
Speaker 2: experience being an ambassador. But what about here at home?
Speaker 1: Here at home, his assessment of the problems is not
Speaker 1: always wrong, likes it relates to the potential to bringing
Speaker 1: manufacturing jobs or have His solution is worse than the
Speaker 1: illness you and I learned. At least I learned three
Speaker 1: equal branches of government, not one, not one among all equals. Nope,
Speaker 1: that's not what we learned. I learned three equal branches
Speaker 1: of government. One branch controls perse strings and sometimes sometimes
Speaker 1: when they're doing their job. And the court very specifically
Speaker 1: is going to have to as he said, called balls
Speaker 1: and strikes. Well, we're going to find out, you know,
Speaker 1: whether he can see.
Speaker 2: But aren't we going to find out? And if Donald
Speaker 2: Trump can hear, Yeah, that's going to be a case
Speaker 2: like what I did there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did I saw that. I got it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: whether you can hear the crowd booing, but.
Speaker 2: No, hear what the Justice Justice is saying.
Speaker 1: I understand. Well, take a look at what he's done
Speaker 1: with the court as it relates to the person in
Speaker 1: Nel Salvador. So, you know, I think this is and
Speaker 1: this will have ramifications beyond. You know, every president has
Speaker 1: a tenure and then they have a legacy that's left
Speaker 1: behind that is like a bomb blast that reverbrates past
Speaker 1: the specific time they serve. And this will have a
Speaker 1: lasting impact at home and obviously abroad and in the economy.
Speaker 2: So scale of one to ten on the worry meter, you.
Speaker 1: Know, it's so I would I'm very worried. Although I
Speaker 1: don't underestimate the resilience of the American people. But it
Speaker 1: takes it does, don't I mean, I know you rolled
Speaker 1: your eyes. I don't know if people can see it
Speaker 1: roll it, Okay. I saw it come calling, Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: like that. It looked very familiar to some of my
Speaker 1: children at the kitchen table, and I says, oh god,
Speaker 1: here it was Dad again. No, the American people, you know,
Speaker 1: when called to, they can It's an incredible resilience. They
Speaker 1: haven't been called to, and it is also they have.
Speaker 1: So I think the ramifications of what Donald Trump's are
Speaker 1: doing is grave and serious, not just for now but
Speaker 1: for years later. But there is a core piece to
Speaker 1: the American people, which when there is that leadership, they
Speaker 1: will answer not just the call the responsibility it comes,
Speaker 1: but they have not been challenged to do that.
Speaker 2: And you see of that.
Speaker 1: I see it, you know, I see a lot of
Speaker 1: it in local not just politics, in local communities, I do.
Speaker 1: I see people coming together, you know.
Speaker 2: But you also see protests.
Speaker 1: Yeah, protests is one manifest but I see people when
Speaker 1: you see a family hurt in your community, people volunteer
Speaker 1: to do things, et cetera. So I do, and I
Speaker 1: see people across faiths, across class, across race, across gender
Speaker 1: working together and doing things in common purpose. The you know,
Speaker 1: in a weird way, having been national and then local
Speaker 1: as a mayor, there's more common purpose locally than there
Speaker 1: is national. I used to jokingly sayd DC's you know,
Speaker 1: Disneyland on the Potomac, Okay. But you go to a city,
Speaker 1: you go into a community in that city, there's more purpose,
Speaker 1: There's more unifying kind of texturing and threads upon buying
Speaker 1: people that has been lost, which is why I believe
Speaker 1: so firmly in the kind of almost antibody that National
Speaker 1: Service would provide because we look. I say, I've been
Speaker 1: very influenced by this book of Boys Men by Richard
Speaker 1: Reeves and John Hay's book, you know, as it relates
Speaker 1: to technology. Anxious, Yeah, anxious generation that we have, this
Speaker 1: generation slipping through our fingers. And I think that not
Speaker 1: that National Service in and of itself will solve, but
Speaker 1: it does. It's the best anecdote and kind of biotic
Speaker 1: against this kind of aimlessness and or.
Speaker 2: This feeling that the future is it's not going to
Speaker 2: be better, you know, that the future is depressing and
Speaker 2: kind of a why bother attitude?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean they have a phrase in China, the generation.
Speaker 1: I forgot the exact phrase, but it says lying down generation.
Speaker 1: We in America have kids lost to substance abuse, lost
Speaker 1: to technology, and it's just or just lost. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: there's a there's not the hope in their eyes and
Speaker 1: the hope in their voice, and it's aimless. And I
Speaker 1: think we need that is there's something in the spirit
Speaker 1: of America that can be renewed, should be renewed, and
Speaker 1: with that, there's nothing that will hold America back.
Speaker 2: You are someone who is intimately familiar with the inner
Speaker 2: workings of the White House, and I'm curious. I know
Speaker 2: you're not in there now, but as an observer and
Speaker 2: someone who says, you know, the only people around the
Speaker 2: president the only four words they know are what what
Speaker 2: did you say? Yes? President?
Speaker 1: There are limited grasped with the English language is limited
Speaker 1: to four words, yes, sir, mister president. So which you
Speaker 1: know me? President? In the start, those were not the
Speaker 1: fore words I used to say.
Speaker 2: I'm sure, I'm sure. And you look at the cabinet
Speaker 2: meetings and everyone goes around praising Donald Trump. I mean
Speaker 2: it's it's freaking.
Speaker 1: Including his doctor that tells you his golf game is.
Speaker 2: Great, right, yeah, victorious golf game that city plays that
Speaker 2: he's victorious. I like Rick Riley's book Commander in Cheat,
Speaker 2: which is all about Donald Trump's golf habits. But I
Speaker 2: guess my question to you is, who do you think
Speaker 2: is pulling the strings right now? Do you think it's
Speaker 2: Stephen Miller, who is said that he was the great
Speaker 2: kind of puppeteer behind the scenes? If there is one, well.
Speaker 1: I mean one is Chris Voyd over office management by Omby.
Speaker 1: There's no doubt when you look at how one piece
Speaker 1: of the White House is the decimation of what they
Speaker 1: quote unquote called the deep state. It's been methodical. They've
Speaker 1: been thinking about this for four years, every step, every day,
Speaker 1: every penny, every person like method the tariffs is all
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, chaos everywhere, and the guy that's methodically executing
Speaker 1: the attack on quote unquote whatever the deep state is
Speaker 1: Chris Voyd.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you in closing about the Democratic Party.
Speaker 2: I know we talked about that for a moment, but
Speaker 2: what I want to ask you about something recently said
Speaker 2: to describe the way Democrats communicate, you said, quote, we
Speaker 2: use language to feel good about ourselves, not to communicate.
Speaker 2: We all act like we're trying to become an adjunct
Speaker 2: professor at a small liberal arts college. It's insane.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm from Chicago. How many people do you think
Speaker 1: at a local diner say the word oligarch? What's wrong
Speaker 1: with rich? Now? I get the spirit of what is
Speaker 1: being done out there, and you can see by the crowds,
Speaker 1: but the marketing material calls oligarchs. You've got to understand
Speaker 1: when the American people live their lives. You got to
Speaker 1: understand how they live their lives. And you have to
Speaker 1: find and I'll give you a classic. I hate this philosophy.
Speaker 1: I hate this whole term. I hate the whole thing.
Speaker 1: As a person whose uncle was a Chicago co we're
Speaker 1: going to defund the police. And when you call them
Speaker 1: on it, they said, well, this doesn't mean what it says.
Speaker 1: So you want you want to know why we're losing
Speaker 1: black voters, Hispanic voters, Asian voters, Silicon Valley because we
Speaker 1: talk in a way in which people don't under We
Speaker 1: communicate that you.
Speaker 2: Love me until you said Silicon Valley.
Speaker 1: We lost Silicon Valley.
Speaker 2: But that's not because people are saying the word oligarch.
Speaker 1: No, well, I don't know. They may be the oligarchs
Speaker 1: we're talking about, right, Yeah, But we talk, and we
Speaker 1: not only talk, but we communicate in a way that
Speaker 1: says more about how we feel about ourselves and trying
Speaker 1: to persuade somebody, and the first thing you should do
Speaker 1: is talk and communicate a set of ideas and values
Speaker 1: of where people live their lives, which is what anomates me.
Speaker 1: And I think this is the most important thing. You
Speaker 1: and I were just talking about aimlessness, losses, and loss
Speaker 1: of hope. All people want is a shot at the
Speaker 1: American dream, and all they got is a shaft for
Speaker 1: twenty years, both parties and we owe them the decency,
Speaker 1: not a guarantee of a shot.
Speaker 2: You sound like Bernie and AOC.
Speaker 1: You know we started here. I don't know. Bernie talks
Speaker 1: about free community college. I did free community college at
Speaker 1: Free College. He talks about I did free community college
Speaker 1: in Chicago. I rose them, raise them in Wage. I
Speaker 1: did universal pre k. There are values that we hold.
Speaker 1: We may not agree on the means, but on the ends,
Speaker 1: in the sense of equity, in the sense of giving
Speaker 1: people a shot and a voice. Yeah, I mean, but
Speaker 1: when I was in Congress, it was my bill to
Speaker 1: re import pharmaceutical drugs. Didn't report Cantada's crisis. Bernie and
Speaker 1: I worked on it together.
Speaker 2: Do you think Bernie and aocre the future of the
Speaker 2: Democratic Party. They are tracting huge crowds. They are out
Speaker 2: there energizing people everywhere.
Speaker 1: Well, I think people are energized. That's the part. A
Speaker 1: lot of people want to assume power. Starts in Washington.
Speaker 1: People already energized. They are putting a spotlight on it.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
Speaker 2: a subject you want us to cover, or you want
Speaker 2: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
Speaker 2: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
Speaker 2: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
Speaker 2: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Speaker 2: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
Speaker 2: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Speaker 2: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
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