Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Happy Saturday. And as promised in our Saturday
Speaker 1: Morning Cartoons episode, which, by the way, I hope you
Speaker 1: woke up this morning and went downstairs and at least
Speaker 1: streamed some cartoons for nostalgia's sake. But as promised in
Speaker 1: that episode, here is our past school House Rock app
Speaker 1: that we recorded quite a number of years ago, and
Speaker 1: we thought it was apropos that we put it out
Speaker 1: the same week as the old Saturday Morning Cartoons up.
Speaker 1: We really had a great time recording this episode. Schoolhouse
Speaker 1: Rock was a fundamental source of learning men entertainment for
Speaker 1: both of us growing up and for most of Gen X.
Speaker 2: I would say, so, I hope you enjoy it all
Speaker 2: over again.
Speaker 1: Here we go with how school House Rock Rocked featuring
Speaker 1: Bob Nistanovich Pavement.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 4: Let's say, because knowledge is power.
Speaker 5: Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 4: I'm Josh Clark, There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, There's Jerry
Speaker 4: and this is Stuff.
Speaker 5: You Should Know. Chip off the block of your favorite schoolhouse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was h We just heard the theme song.
Speaker 2: If you're between the ages of well, were you into it? Yes, Okay,
Speaker 2: so you're what forty one, I'm forty, dude, forty so
Speaker 2: probably younger than you even a bit. Let's say if
Speaker 2: you're between.
Speaker 5: I was definitely toward the tail end of it.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's say thirty eight to fifty years old.
Speaker 5: Actually, yeah, that's so true. So let's say it was
Speaker 5: up to.
Speaker 2: Eighty five, so our Schoolhouse Rock.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so I would swear in that, let's say
Speaker 4: thirty five to what fifty ish? All right, that's what
Speaker 4: you agree on a little more fifty five maybe.
Speaker 5: So that fifteen year period you were lucky.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if you just heard that theme song and
Speaker 2: like something inside your body happened emotionally in your brain,
Speaker 2: then that means that you grew up in the seventies
Speaker 2: and eighties. I think the heyday of Saturday Morning cartoons personally,
Speaker 2: as a fan of Schoolhouse Rock one of my favorite
Speaker 2: favorite favorite things in the world.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was pretty great.
Speaker 2: I still love it. Yeah, Like I still listen to
Speaker 2: this stuff semi regularly.
Speaker 5: Oh do you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd been a little while.
Speaker 4: When I went back to research this, I listened to
Speaker 4: or watched a bunch of them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they all just came flooding back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the writer of this article actually interviewed, didn't
Speaker 2: he Bob Doro?
Speaker 5: It sounded that way unless he's a big fat liar.
Speaker 5: In his author's note.
Speaker 2: Well, I just remember when this article went around, Like
Speaker 2: the first thing we do when there's an article at
Speaker 2: house thefforks is there's a email that goes around everyone
Speaker 2: where people kind of suggest kind of questions you can
Speaker 2: answer and stuff like that.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't think we ever really talked about that, did we.
Speaker 5: I don't think so.
Speaker 2: Nine years in that's a secret and people say, hey,
Speaker 2: you should think about this, you should do this, And
Speaker 2: I said, somebody should try and interview Bob Doro. It's
Speaker 2: like he's ninety three years old and you know, you
Speaker 2: can still get in touch with the guy. I think,
Speaker 2: and apparently this dude did. And sadly I think we
Speaker 2: got was like one quote.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well he was on his way to like a
Speaker 4: jazz gig in London when he caught him.
Speaker 2: I bet you that was more in there than this.
Speaker 2: I was all disappointed. Oh you're saying I wanted like
Speaker 2: more more select pull quotes from mister Doro.
Speaker 4: He wanted like I called mister Doro. He answered, Hello,
Speaker 4: said mister Doro.
Speaker 2: We should have interviewed him for this.
Speaker 5: I don't know why we didn't.
Speaker 2: I don't either. Easy to get to uh and there's well,
Speaker 2: I'll get to that. Never mind, should we get in
Speaker 2: the way back machine?
Speaker 4: Guess let's go back to the seventies, the greatest decade
Speaker 4: in his true of humanity.
Speaker 5: Probably, I'm not joking.
Speaker 2: I'm a fan of the sixties, seventies, and eighties. It'd
Speaker 2: be tough for me to decide.
Speaker 4: The sixties were a little too hippie for me. Oh yeah,
Speaker 4: love the seventies, though, I mean I had loved the seventies,
Speaker 4: and not even as a Golden AIGs.
Speaker 5: There was a lot wrong in the seventies.
Speaker 4: Nixon was president during the seventies. Okay, Yeah, lots of
Speaker 4: stuff were wrong in the seventies, But something about that
Speaker 4: decade just hit.
Speaker 5: All the boxes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just love it. I do too, And it
Speaker 2: reminds me of my childhood, which is great, because you know,
Speaker 2: I had a good childhood. It was fun. I've a
Speaker 2: lot of We talked about that in the Nostalgia episode
Speaker 2: on how nostalgia is the correct path life. Even though
Speaker 2: John Hodgman doesn't think so.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So early seventies, there's a gentleman named David McCall and
Speaker 2: he was a He co owned an ad agency called
Speaker 2: McCaffrey and McCall. And as the story goes, he was
Speaker 2: on vacation with his family and he knew his son
Speaker 2: was having some trouble in math, remembering specifically multiplication tables.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no matter how much he yelled at him every night,
Speaker 4: he couldn't get multiplication.
Speaker 2: But they're in the car and this kid was singing,
Speaker 2: as the story goes, rolling Stones, rolling Stone song, and
Speaker 2: he was like, well, you know that, Why can't you
Speaker 2: remember the other stuff? I don't think he was that cruff,
Speaker 2: but it did hit him. He was like, you know,
Speaker 2: my son remembered. He's no problem memorizing things. But there's
Speaker 2: something about these multiplication tables. So I wonder if there's
Speaker 2: something to sing song and turning learning into not only
Speaker 2: just music, because that's not a new thing. People have
Speaker 2: been doing that forever, but pop sounding music.
Speaker 4: Right, and like pairing them with concepts to teach, right, Yeah,
Speaker 4: to make kids understand difficult concepts right. And it's it's
Speaker 4: so weird now, especially in the post school house rock
Speaker 4: World that that, Yeah, of course people do that, Like
Speaker 4: that's a technique that you use to teach kids, but
Speaker 4: apparently no one else is doing this at the time.
Speaker 4: Learning this was this was a pretty interesting idea, and
Speaker 4: it really it germinated in just the right guy's mind.
Speaker 4: Because this guy McCall was, like you said, he was
Speaker 4: a partner in this advertising firm and they basically specialized
Speaker 4: in in doing the same thing but get you getting
Speaker 4: you to buy something. He was saying, maybe we could
Speaker 4: do the same thing that we do to sell people stuff,
Speaker 4: but to basically sell education to kids, to teach kids
Speaker 4: using the same techniques that we an advertising.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they would see a jingle for a product
Speaker 2: that would get lodged in someone's head and they would say,
Speaker 2: you know, why can't we do that same thing, Like
Speaker 2: it would get lodged in a kid's head and they
Speaker 2: would have learned something instead of bought something.
Speaker 4: Right, But you could also buy stuff. If you learn
Speaker 4: enough stuff, you can buy even more stuff.
Speaker 2: So he went to one of the I think he
Speaker 2: was a creative director, a co creative director named George
Speaker 2: Newell ran it by him. He said, great idea, get
Speaker 2: someone on it and he threw a cigarette at him,
Speaker 2: got out of the office and commissioned a one of
Speaker 2: their writers. They had jingle writers on staff or at
Speaker 2: least working with them, and they said, go write something.
Speaker 2: It wasn't very good.
Speaker 5: Didn't you feel bad for this person?
Speaker 2: I did, But you know what, it could have died there, right,
Speaker 2: he never would have had Schoolhouse Rock.
Speaker 4: But this person went down in history is the contributor
Speaker 4: to school House Rock.
Speaker 5: Who didn't it didn't make it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, say it? Or the person who almost old Schoolhouse Rock.
Speaker 5: I guess so. But McCall was like, no, this idea
Speaker 5: is too good for this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is really, you know, a great thing and
Speaker 2: a lesson in persistence. So he went Newell was a
Speaker 2: jazz piano player, and he went to his buddy one
Speaker 2: Bob Doro, one of my heroes, who was and is
Speaker 2: a great bebop jazz pianist and composer, and said, you
Speaker 2: can write a jingle too. Why don't you try this out?
Speaker 2: And here's the one quote we might as well read
Speaker 2: it from a ninety three year old mister Doro. I
Speaker 2: don't know how I looked out. Apparently they tried other songwriters,
Speaker 2: but most of them wrote down to kids. When I
Speaker 2: met McCauley said, here's my idea. I give it a try,
Speaker 2: but don't write down to the kids. And when he
Speaker 2: said that, I got a chill. I have a high
Speaker 2: opinion of children, And that was sort of the key
Speaker 2: right there. They weren't songs like written in a remedial
Speaker 2: way because it was children, right.
Speaker 5: It'sy bitsy spider, give.
Speaker 2: Me a break. Oh that's a classic. So but you're right.
Speaker 4: But so this idea germinates in this right guy's head.
Speaker 4: He happens to end up indirectly getting in touch with
Speaker 4: this guy who has a high opinion of children, and
Speaker 4: he happens to be a jazz composer. Yeah, things are
Speaker 4: starting to like happen. There's basically the hand of the
Speaker 4: Almighty at work here.
Speaker 2: That's right. So Dora goes home, he has a daughter,
Speaker 2: gets out of textbooks, and the first thing he comes
Speaker 2: up with to me one.
Speaker 5: Of the best man, it is far out.
Speaker 2: Three is a magic number was the very first schoolhouse
Speaker 2: song written because the first thing they wanted to tackle
Speaker 2: was math. Because of McCall's son.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this this composition that he came back with, Three
Speaker 4: is a magic number. It's a I when I.
Speaker 5: Hear it, it's super cool, but I don't.
Speaker 4: I'm really surprised that everybody's like, this is, yes, figure
Speaker 4: something out from this.
Speaker 2: I loved it.
Speaker 4: It is, it's cool, but it just doesn't seem like
Speaker 4: the basis the keystone of Schoolhouse Rock to me.
Speaker 5: I'm surprised.
Speaker 2: Well, it's one of my favorites. That's great because it
Speaker 2: dealt with multiplication. And not only that, but like you said,
Speaker 2: got a little trippy with the symbolism faith, hope and charity,
Speaker 2: heart and mind and body. Right, it was about and
Speaker 2: I've wanted to do a podcast on three, the number three,
Speaker 2: because it's very special. It is very special. It is.
Speaker 5: We did one on zero. Why not three?
Speaker 2: Oh man, I forgot about that. Remember, I think my
Speaker 2: brain melted a bit there.
Speaker 5: That's a good one. It's tough. Zero is tough.
Speaker 2: It is tough and not at all magic, right, not
Speaker 2: really so regardless, if you would have been working there,
Speaker 2: you would have been like, eh, and everyone else enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: You'd be like, I'm gonna go get a bagel.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna go work on this process cheese account.
Speaker 2: I did think of Madmen quite a bit when I
Speaker 2: was researching this, it was sort of that same time
Speaker 2: period or I guess towards No, Madmen didn't make it
Speaker 2: into the seventies.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I thought he did, because wasn't he supposed to
Speaker 5: be dB Cooper at the end, and that was the
Speaker 5: right seventies?
Speaker 2: True?
Speaker 5: Yeah, early, I guess it was seventy one.
Speaker 2: I think it did crack into the seventies, not like
Speaker 2: Boogie Knights did.
Speaker 5: That was all seventies into the eighties.
Speaker 2: No, that's right, it cracked into the eighties. Yeah with
Speaker 2: that cheeze that that song you recorded. Well, no, I was, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: that for sure. But I was thinking about when when
Speaker 2: the Party The New Year's e Party nineteen eighty with
Speaker 2: Bill Macy. Oh yeah, man, what a great movie. That
Speaker 2: was wonderful. Yeah, the movie's almost like twenty years old.
Speaker 5: I believe it. We're old, Chuck.
Speaker 2: I know. But those those pop culture references are the
Speaker 2: ones that really hit home for me.
Speaker 5: What the ones are in the seventies.
Speaker 2: Well, when I think of like Boogie Nights, it's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: that was just like a few years ago, right, And
Speaker 2: then someone says it's celebrating its twentieth anniversary and I'm like,
Speaker 2: what or like when I see an athlete's son or daughter. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's weird to see them as playing the same sport.
Speaker 5: The rookies are now like the old coaches and managers
Speaker 5: in the sports now. Man, it's bizarre.
Speaker 2: So everyone's impressed at McCaffrey and McCall. Then they did
Speaker 2: a pretty smart thing. They went to McCall was on
Speaker 2: the board of the Bank Street College of Education in
Speaker 2: New York there and he took it to them and
Speaker 2: it was just a song at this point, and said,
Speaker 2: what do you think is a learning tool? They used it,
Speaker 2: played it for the students and they were like, this
Speaker 2: is awesome. Right they're responding again Little Josh.
Speaker 5: He's just sitting there with his arms, crusty, scowling. Never
Speaker 5: seen him so mad before.
Speaker 2: So the students liked it. The agency liked it, so
Speaker 2: they knew they were onto something. They got their art
Speaker 2: director Tom yo yo h e.
Speaker 5: Oh you're going with yo, I'm going all out with YOHI.
Speaker 2: Okay, Tom Yohee and said, put some animation to this,
Speaker 2: draw out some storyboards because that was the beauty of
Speaker 2: Schoolhouse Rock to me was it was a combination of everything.
Speaker 2: It wasn't just the song, Like, the songs are great,
Speaker 2: and we'll get more to the music here in a bit,
Speaker 2: but it was the combination of the visuals with the song, yeah,
Speaker 2: and the fact that you were learning something in such
Speaker 2: a unique way. It was just like the perfect storm
Speaker 2: of awesomeness.
Speaker 5: Yeah. The songs on their own would have stood up
Speaker 5: on their own.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
Speaker 4: And initially, like they they planned to just release an
Speaker 4: album of cool songs like this, Yeah, but it was
Speaker 4: when YOHI started sitting there right like drawing some of.
Speaker 5: This stuff out. Uh huh.
Speaker 4: That's I mean. Schoolhouse Rock is not one or the other.
Speaker 4: It's the combination of those two things, and they play
Speaker 4: off each other.
Speaker 2: So well, agreed. So they took Now they have these storyboards.
Speaker 2: They take this to a guy named radford Stone. He
Speaker 2: was their account supervisor, the VP for ABC, and they said,
Speaker 2: there's this young upstart at ABC for their children's programming
Speaker 2: named Michael Eisner. Doubt if he's ever going to go anywhere,
Speaker 2: but right now he's running the kids shop over there,
Speaker 2: and let's bring in because this guy knows a lot
Speaker 2: about kids programming, Let's bring in Chuck Jones to the meeting,
Speaker 2: shout out to our friend Jessica, granddaughter of mister Jones,
Speaker 2: and sat down in a meeting, played the demo tape,
Speaker 2: showed him the storyboard they helped. Turned to Chuck Jones.
Speaker 2: So what do you think he said? Buy it bid?
Speaker 5: That is how Chuck Jones taught.
Speaker 2: How he didn't and Michael Eisner bought it and uh,
Speaker 2: before you knew it, they're in business. We're gonna take
Speaker 2: a break, I think we should. Josh is going to
Speaker 2: go collect himself and we'll be right back. All right,
Speaker 2: all right, we're back. So strange. So Schoolhouse Rocks started
Speaker 2: on ABC Saturday morning. Is what they call an interstitial.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we had some of this, Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It was. It's programming between the programming that's not commercial.
Speaker 4: Right, When the creators of the program you're actually watching
Speaker 4: weren't good enough to make twenty two full minutes, you
Speaker 4: round it out with the interstitial program.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. This is January sixth and seventh, was the
Speaker 2: first weekend in nineteen seventy three, So I was but
Speaker 2: two years old?
Speaker 5: Oh well negative three.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you were in the upper atmosphere playing my lyre coalescing,
Speaker 2: waiting to be born, Flapping My Wings. And this was
Speaker 2: before like, like you said, this is the original thing
Speaker 2: was it was just going to be an album called
Speaker 2: Multiplication Rock until they realized that the visuals were important
Speaker 2: they could put it on television. And the first four
Speaker 2: songs that first weekend were some of the greatest, aside
Speaker 2: from three is the Magic Number, the four Legged Zoo, Elementary,
Speaker 2: my Dear, and My Hero zero great song.
Speaker 5: Zero again, Yeah, not magical, but it is a cool number.
Speaker 2: Such a funny little hero. Yeah, so you came along.
Speaker 2: They counted on their fingers.
Speaker 5: So that when was that Chuck nineteen seventy three, Yes,
Speaker 5: and I think that first one had quite so it
Speaker 5: was up to there were thirteen episodes then if it
Speaker 5: went from zero to twelve.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think what they settled on was almost
Speaker 2: like seasons right themed season, so that the first season
Speaker 2: was going to be math related.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So apparently Bob Doro had been off like coming up
Speaker 4: with songs. Didn't realize that they wanted a song for
Speaker 4: each number, and he had started to combine several numbers in.
Speaker 2: A different song, so hitting get the mimo he didn't
Speaker 2: and he.
Speaker 4: Finally did, and he he was trying to figure out
Speaker 4: how to like break the songs apart, and he came
Speaker 4: up with one called the four Legged Zoo.
Speaker 5: Have you heard that one?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It's fine. Yeah, so so not one of my favorites,
Speaker 2: but I mean they were all great. It's just some
Speaker 2: stand out a little more than others.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So what's your favorite of the multiplication rock?
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, three is the magic number?
Speaker 5: Okay?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 5: And that was something else I noticed about this. There
Speaker 5: were for each season, there were at least one standout
Speaker 5: song per season that just about everybody knows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would guess.
Speaker 5: Three is of magic numbers. Probably that one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or maybe my hero zero. That was a big one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a hit, so much so that Bob
Speaker 4: Dura was up for Grammy in nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 5: Yeah, for I think the whole album.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, but the jerks at Sesame Street one.
Speaker 5: If you're gonna lose, lose to Sesame Street.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And Doro is like writing and singing these initial
Speaker 2: first few songs.
Speaker 4: I think he's saying, yeah, all of them except two.
Speaker 4: And he hired two other jazz musicians, Grady Tit and
Speaker 4: Blossom Deary great name. Grady Tate sang Naughty number nine
Speaker 4: and Blossom Deary sang figure eight, but all the rest
Speaker 4: of them, the other eleven, Bob Dura sang and he
Speaker 4: wrote all of them. So yeah, yeah, they really struck
Speaker 4: gold with that guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he was he was that initial genius
Speaker 2: behind this whole thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is another cool thing about Schoolhouse Rock
Speaker 4: that I noticed the people involved stayed on for basically
Speaker 4: the whole run. In the initial run from seventy three
Speaker 4: to eighty five.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seemed like a project that everyone enjoyed working on,
Speaker 2: and that was highly collaborative, and it just seemed like
Speaker 2: a good experience. I don't think there's like the VH
Speaker 2: one special, like the Dark Side of the school House
Speaker 2: Rock years. You know, so they move on to I
Speaker 2: don't know which one is my favorite, Grammar Rock or History,
Speaker 2: but they moved on to Grammar Rock next, Yes, And
Speaker 2: that was yeah, seventy three to seventy four.
Speaker 4: And we should say I don't think that these were
Speaker 4: like I don't think there were breaks in the season.
Speaker 4: I get the impression that from nineteen seventy three till
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty five, when they had enough episodes, yeah, they
Speaker 4: were just running them like every Saturday morning during cartoons.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I certainly don't remember like breaks, like it just
Speaker 2: seems like every week they were there. Right, So seventy
Speaker 2: three and seventy four you have Grammar Rock, which debuted.
Speaker 2: Some people will probably say the biggest of all time
Speaker 2: Conjunction Junction.
Speaker 5: That's so what everybody knows.
Speaker 2: It's a great, great song, a song as he sang
Speaker 2: many others, including my all time favorite, which I'll get
Speaker 2: to later.
Speaker 5: Okay, but I know what it is.
Speaker 2: I bet you don't. He was Merv Griffin's trumpet player,
Speaker 2: Jack Sheldon, who just had this voice that's.
Speaker 5: Just like it's the conjunction Junction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's unbelievable. Yeah, very unique guy. And he kind
Speaker 2: of looked like Will Ferrell to me, like he should
Speaker 2: play him if they did a movie about they should
Speaker 2: do a movie about the whole thing. If she asked
Speaker 2: me about Schoolhouse Rock.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's no controversy or conflict. It's just
Speaker 4: two hours of everybody getting along doing great stuff.
Speaker 2: He wants to see that, right, So Jack Sheldon came
Speaker 2: at uh sang Conjunction Junction.
Speaker 5: And did you go back and listen to that?
Speaker 2: Like for this Oh yeah, I listened to a lot
Speaker 2: of these.
Speaker 4: So that is a sophisticated song. Yeah, if you listen
Speaker 4: to like that we remember our poetry episode. Yeah, if
Speaker 4: you listen to like the meter and the rhyming pattern,
Speaker 4: the rhyme scheme and the slant rhymes they use, like
Speaker 4: for something that's made for kids, it is not just.
Speaker 5: Rhyme, rhyme, rhyme, rhyme, rhyme, rme me, rhyme, rhyme.
Speaker 4: You know, like it's a sophisticated song and it's pretty
Speaker 4: pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's I mean, I think that's why
Speaker 2: it worked. That was a secret is.
Speaker 5: I guess it's that not not talking down to kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like the music was was good, right, Like
Speaker 2: if you listen to I mean, those are a little
Speaker 2: sing songy, but like some of them were like pop
Speaker 2: music at the time, Like the Verb song. That's one
Speaker 2: of the funkiest songs I've ever heard. Verb, That's What's Happening. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and especially that one, Like I read this great blog
Speaker 2: pot by this African American guy that was talking about
Speaker 2: how Verb was like meant so much to him because
Speaker 2: at the time, you know, they didn't have a lot
Speaker 2: of like cartoons and stuff that but addressed the black
Speaker 2: community at all. And so all of a sudden, you
Speaker 2: get this cartoon. It's got this super funky music and
Speaker 2: this kid that looked like him, right, having this great
Speaker 2: adventure in the city, and it just kind of it's
Speaker 2: a pretty pretty neat thing, I think.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was season two. It was Grammar, right, Yes,
Speaker 4: So apparently in that same season, a lady named Lynn
Speaker 4: Aaron's was a She was a copy copy department secretary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where it reminded me of Madmen, like
Speaker 2: basically took Peggy's journey from like secretary to superstar.
Speaker 5: I've never seen mad Ben.
Speaker 2: Yeah it's good. I'm rewatching it right now.
Speaker 5: Oh really, yeah, it's that good.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So Lynn was she was a secretary at the advertise
Speaker 4: agency and apparently she was playing her guitar on lunch break.
Speaker 5: Another reason the seventies.
Speaker 2: Were great exactly.
Speaker 5: And who was it that founder Newell, the creative director guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like in the movie, he's just walking down the
Speaker 2: hall and hears this beautiful music and stops. It's like,
Speaker 2: what in the world's going on in there?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 4: And it was Lynn Aerond's And so they took her
Speaker 4: and put her on I guess, part time on the project,
Speaker 4: and they I guess eventually made her a full time songwriter,
Speaker 4: which is pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was her gig. Fifteen of the songs, right,
Speaker 2: including some of the biggest ones. A noun as a
Speaker 2: person plays her thing, great song, InterPlaNet Janet interjections to
Speaker 2: a good one, a victim of gravity about Isaac Newton.
Speaker 4: InterPlaNet Janet sounds like Rocky Horror if you go back
Speaker 4: and listen to it, Yeah, it kind of does. It
Speaker 4: bears a real resemblance to it.
Speaker 2: Or Rocky Horror sounded like InterPlaNet Janet.
Speaker 5: Well, I went and looked. Rocky Horror was three years
Speaker 5: before in A Planet Janet the movie or the play
Speaker 5: the movie?
Speaker 2: Okay, so the play was he before that?
Speaker 5: Was it a play first?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Meatloaf was even in the play. Oh yeah
Speaker 2: before the movie right, and not a play I guess, musical?
Speaker 5: Sure, he played with songs and dancing.
Speaker 2: So the next one to come along was America Rock
Speaker 2: or History Rock, which kind of vised for the best
Speaker 2: to me with Grammar.
Speaker 5: Rock, and that one tied into the by centennial.
Speaker 2: Yeah that was a big deal, which you don't remember,
Speaker 2: but I remember being a little kid, being five years old,
Speaker 2: and it took over the country for you know, that
Speaker 2: entire year.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, there was like a resurgence in colonial
Speaker 4: emblems and stuff like that. You know that if you
Speaker 4: ever walked past like a very very old person's house today,
Speaker 4: you might see like a flagholder that's a black metal eagle, yeah,
Speaker 4: holding like some arrows maybe or something like that. That
Speaker 4: is from nineteen seventy six. Still there like a resurgence
Speaker 4: in Betsy Ross and colonial like nick knacks and stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I was I was just born, but it was there
Speaker 4: was a it created like a high water mark that
Speaker 4: I was able to see even you know, four five
Speaker 4: six years later.
Speaker 2: So History Rock or America Rock featured some of the
Speaker 2: best songs Mother Necessity, Shot Herd Around the World and
Speaker 2: No More Kings, which is maybe my second all time favorite. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's the one that There was an album that
Speaker 2: came out in like ninety five ninety six called Schoolhouse
Speaker 2: Rocks Rocks. I think Schoolhouse Rock Rocks where they got
Speaker 2: contemporary artists to cover these songs. And did you ever
Speaker 2: listen to that?
Speaker 5: I listened to the Pavement one of the day.
Speaker 2: Man so I emailed Bob Nistanovich today from Pavement because,
Speaker 2: as I said in the previous episode, I tricked him
Speaker 2: into being my email friend, and I said, Hey, dude,
Speaker 2: I would love to hear if you have any thoughts
Speaker 2: on them, more kings, how you guys were approached, if
Speaker 2: there are any stories, what it meant to you, what
Speaker 2: it didn't mean, whatever, let me know. Crickets No, no, no,
Speaker 2: He emailed back, and then I said, I'll call you
Speaker 2: on my way to work. Called him the way to work. Crickets, Yeah,
Speaker 2: got his voicemail, and then as I was coming in
Speaker 2: the studio, he called and left the voicemail saying he
Speaker 2: was in his minivan rocking out and he didn't hear
Speaker 2: the phone ring. Oh that's funny, which is very funny
Speaker 2: to me. But I told him I'd like to hear
Speaker 2: what he has to say, because he said he has
Speaker 2: a tale to tell about that experience.
Speaker 5: Man, we're going to have to record it after.
Speaker 2: This, well, yeah, or if it could be like a
Speaker 2: listener mail, Yeah, like if I can get him on tape,
Speaker 2: then we'll tag it at the end. Okay, if not,
Speaker 2: if it ends up being an email version or something,
Speaker 2: I'll just maybe recount it in my own dumb words.
Speaker 5: Or you could ask him if we could read the
Speaker 5: email and make a listener mail.
Speaker 2: Oh for real, Yeah, like a real listener mail. It's
Speaker 2: not about idea. So anyway, so listen up for the
Speaker 2: end for Bob Nistanovitch's story about No More Kings, because
Speaker 2: if you listen to that CD, it's like the Lemonheads
Speaker 2: and Ween this.
Speaker 5: Is super ninety CD.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Moby and they're all most of them are pretty
Speaker 2: straight ahead, and so you get to the Pavement song
Speaker 2: and it's just all pavement, Like Malcolm's changed his words.
Speaker 2: He there's like laser guns at the end, and it's
Speaker 2: just wonderfully pavement, like quintessentially pavement. Yeah, like leave it
Speaker 2: to them to just kind of throw it all out
Speaker 2: the window and do their own thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I liked it a lot. Three Ring Government. I didn't
Speaker 2: really know that one.
Speaker 4: That was good and apparently they so it basically talks
Speaker 4: about the different branches of the government. Yeah, but puts
Speaker 4: in the context of a three ring circus, and it's
Speaker 4: really I mean, aside from the fact that it compares
Speaker 4: the government to a three ring circus, it's not at
Speaker 4: all offensive.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 5: Apparently they sat on that one for years and didn't
Speaker 5: release it until like nineteen seventy nine because they were
Speaker 5: worried about offending the government, which is a strange thing
Speaker 5: to worry.
Speaker 2: About, yeah, through today's lens.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but even still, I mean, this is like post Watergate.
Speaker 4: It's not like everybody was like, oh right, right, you know,
Speaker 4: we couldn't possibly call the government a three ring circus.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. That is weird. It seems like that
Speaker 2: would have been a good time to do it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, but the most famous song from that year
Speaker 2: by far was Sheldon's on Just a Bill?
Speaker 5: Is that your favorite?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 5: Okay?
Speaker 2: That was composed not by mister Doro but by a
Speaker 2: man named Dave Frishburg. And I mean that one was
Speaker 2: just a mega hit, straight to number one on the
Speaker 2: Billboard charts.
Speaker 4: It's like, as far as Schoolhouse Rocks goes, that's the
Speaker 4: that's the that's the cultural icon that signifies the whole thing.
Speaker 4: I think close close second would be conjunction junction. Maybe
Speaker 4: they're tired, I don't know, but I just feel like
Speaker 4: I'm just a Bill is the most readily recognizable one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's just amazing when you look back, though,
Speaker 2: like the learning that was going on and the teaching
Speaker 2: that was happening. Yeah, these kids, us, we were learning
Speaker 2: how a bill becomes a law right in the in
Speaker 2: the best way possible, like better than any well, not
Speaker 2: any teacher. There were great teachers back then, I want
Speaker 2: to say, like any dumb teacher that's boring their kids.
Speaker 2: But it definitely struck a chord with me. Sure, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: And that's how I remember a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 4: And apparently two adults were also noticing Schoolhouse Rock at
Speaker 4: the time. Supposedly there were plenty of orders. This was
Speaker 4: before video cassettes. Yeah, before they were widely available, I
Speaker 4: guess in the home. I'm trying to think of how
Speaker 4: they would have played them if they didn't have video cassettes.
Speaker 4: But anyway, apparently lobbyists and legislators would get in touch
Speaker 4: with ABC and be like, you got to get me
Speaker 4: a copy of that I'm a bill thing.
Speaker 2: Give me a Beta Max because I want.
Speaker 5: To show it to my staff to train them on
Speaker 5: this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, I think they asked for cassettes, at least, at
Speaker 2: the very least so they could play in the music.
Speaker 5: I see. Maybe that's what they meant, probably okay.
Speaker 2: An eight track. Yeah, And then there was Science Rock
Speaker 2: was the year after that. That was seventy eight and
Speaker 2: seventy nine, which is pretty good. InterPlaNet Janet victiogravity one, yeah,
Speaker 2: is so weird? What InterPlaNet Janet? Yeah, Yeah, it's a
Speaker 2: good one. And then the telegraph Line song, which I
Speaker 2: think that was written by Urns too, I think, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: And that one was really like, I mean it was
Speaker 2: you literally learned about the nervous system and how the
Speaker 2: body communicates to the brain by listening to that song.
Speaker 2: That's one that they've wanted to play for medicine students. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they did amazing some of them. All right, well
Speaker 2: let's take another break, and jeez, we'll cover the sad
Speaker 2: last season of Schoolhouse Rock after.
Speaker 5: This, so chuck.
Speaker 4: Schoolhouse Rock for the first four seasons was the epitome
Speaker 4: of creativity. Even their process was creative, Like the songwriters
Speaker 4: would I guess they would say, this season, our theme is,
Speaker 4: you know, it's gonna be science or gonna be grammar
Speaker 4: or whatever, so go forth and figure this out. The
Speaker 4: songwriters would come up with songs and they'd pitch them
Speaker 4: to the creative team. And so there was this process
Speaker 4: of creativity and it started with the creatives. That's the
Speaker 4: key here. Yeah, that's what made it just so legitimate
Speaker 4: and so wonderfully creative this whole time.
Speaker 5: It started with the creatives, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they would pretty cool. They would get them
Speaker 2: vetted by that Bank Street School of Education, so they
Speaker 2: would get make sure everything was like, you know, it
Speaker 2: was right yeah, and.
Speaker 4: Then ABC would be like, let me say it, and
Speaker 4: then they'd say, oh, I guess it's fine, and then
Speaker 4: they'd start to storyboard it once they had the lyrics
Speaker 4: set in stone, right. That was the first four seasons.
Speaker 4: The fifth season they said die, creativity Die, and they
Speaker 4: reversed the process and they said, hey, songwriters, here are
Speaker 4: your assignments. Now we think kids should know more about computers,
Speaker 4: so we're going to just screw this whole thing up.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, this is the part I don't get it,
Speaker 2: says the ABC program exec Squire Rushnell commissioned this because
Speaker 2: that was the idea that children were afraid of computers.
Speaker 2: I can't I don't remember anything, but they're being like
Speaker 2: excitement about computers. I don't remember any kids being like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to go near that.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember kids being like, oh that's cool, let me
Speaker 2: sit down.
Speaker 5: And usually it was the parents that were afraid of computers.
Speaker 2: Well, I think herein lies the problem. Yeah, with season five.
Speaker 5: So we should say season five too.
Speaker 4: If you notice we jumped quite a bit from nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy nine to nineteen eighty five, Schoolhouse Rock was running
Speaker 4: all those years on Saturday mornings.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they just weren't any new ones. They were the
Speaker 5: same ones they were re running.
Speaker 4: U Yeah, the class nineteen eighty five, Squire Rushnal says,
Speaker 4: give me, give me four episodes or six?
Speaker 5: Is it four or six? On computers?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're gonna call the season a scooter computer.
Speaker 2: And mister Chips, what do you think of that?
Speaker 4: So it's what like a computer with a bag of chips.
Speaker 4: It's like, no, mister Chips is a computer? Well what
Speaker 4: scooter computer?
Speaker 5: He's a kid.
Speaker 2: And they said, well what about the goodbye? Mister Chips said,
Speaker 2: great book? And no one's ever read that.
Speaker 5: What's a book?
Speaker 2: So it was a little confusing.
Speaker 5: We have disdain for him.
Speaker 2: It's a little weird. I know, I feel bad if
Speaker 2: that's not really how it went down. But it sounds
Speaker 2: kind of like that classic story, you know, like an
Speaker 2: executive takes over the creative and it just goes downhill.
Speaker 5: That's usually how it happens.
Speaker 2: And I do feel a little bit bad because, you know,
Speaker 2: the originals were still involved. They got mister Doro back
Speaker 2: on board. Yeah, and I think they did the best
Speaker 2: they could. But I think one of the issues is
Speaker 2: all the other seasons, you know, math and science and history.
Speaker 2: It's all civics. It's all baked in like that stuff
Speaker 2: is classic and didn't change when you're writing songs about
Speaker 2: data processing and basic computer language a couple of years later, Like, no,
Speaker 2: it's not relevant anymore, right, you know. So it's sort
Speaker 2: of that's why no one's ever heard of it.
Speaker 4: Plus again they were like, so wait, Scooter computers, the
Speaker 4: oh you're the computer he's hanging out with, right, And
Speaker 4: why is the computer on roller skates?
Speaker 5: Yeah, just stuff like that, you know.
Speaker 4: It was. It was an undignified end to something really great. Agreed,
Speaker 4: and so they pulled the plug on the whole thing.
Speaker 4: In nineteen eighty five, they said, Hey, this Mary lou
Speaker 4: Retton lady.
Speaker 2: We like her.
Speaker 5: She's got gumption, she's got apple Pie coming out of
Speaker 5: her ears.
Speaker 2: Gs.
Speaker 5: We love her and we want to put her on TV,
Speaker 5: so they put her interstitials.
Speaker 2: On Yeah, ABC, Funfit.
Speaker 4: I'll bet that was the same time when Reagan made
Speaker 4: Arnold Schwarzenegger is like fitnesses are remember that?
Speaker 2: Huh totally remember that the presidential fitness test, right?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Man, I failed that so many times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I was always sick that day. It's
Speaker 2: like I gotta climb a rope.
Speaker 5: Yeah, still to this day, I've never climbed a rope
Speaker 5: in my life. No, made it this far. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 5: going to be chased by a tiger on the way home.
Speaker 2: I think I was going to say, that's how you're
Speaker 2: going to meet your one day. It's gonna be like
Speaker 2: a burning building in a rope. It's just going to
Speaker 2: fall from the ceiling like a cartoon. Right. In the
Speaker 2: late eighties, that was a student at Yukon Go Huskies
Speaker 2: that said I want to bring Schoolhouse Rock back. They
Speaker 2: started a petition.
Speaker 4: I could not find this person's name for the life
Speaker 4: of me. I couldn't either, Sorry, person.
Speaker 2: But ABC said, you know what, people want this, and
Speaker 2: I guess it took them a little while to get
Speaker 2: around to it. But nineteen ninety three they brought it back,
Speaker 2: rerunning all those classic tunes and cartoons and added some
Speaker 2: new stuff. Yeah, by Bob Doro in the Gang.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they brought back the originals and this this season
Speaker 4: was called Money Rock, and they did a substantial number
Speaker 4: of new episodes, but again written and performed by all
Speaker 4: the original people. But a good starting or twenty years later. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and they had things like seven to fifty once a week,
Speaker 4: which is about maintaining your budget. Yeah, Tyrannosaurs Debt which
Speaker 4: is about the national debt, and plenty of others.
Speaker 2: I remember the Tale of Mister Morton. That was another
Speaker 2: Lynen Erond's offering.
Speaker 5: What was that one about.
Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly. I didn't go back and rewatch it,
Speaker 2: but I remember.
Speaker 5: He's like, they'll saw his money on scratch offs or something.
Speaker 2: I don't think so, but you know, again, the reason
Speaker 2: why this was that it works so well is because
Speaker 2: these were men and women who were used to selling
Speaker 2: products for a living and it was just sort of
Speaker 2: a natural, a natural thing for them to do. As
Speaker 2: an ad agency, it seems weird at first when you're
Speaker 2: like an ad agency came up with Schoolhouse Rock. It
Speaker 2: kind of makes perfect sense when you think about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean they they were selling these ideas
Speaker 4: to children in ways that were comprehensible to children, that
Speaker 4: were approachable by children, and they just kind of took
Speaker 4: the kid's point of views and packaged it for them,
Speaker 4: I think is a good way to put it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So besides the Schoolhouse Rock Rocks CD, which I
Speaker 2: still have, actually.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that nineties thing created a bit of a resurgence
Speaker 4: of it. Yeah, the resurgence in popularity for sure.
Speaker 2: Boy, that Blind Melon three is the Magic Number was great? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 2: Shannon hear that one. Did you like them?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think Soup, their second album, is one of the
Speaker 2: great underrated records of the nineties.
Speaker 4: I don't recall that one, man, it was good. I
Speaker 4: think I only heard their first album, but they that's
Speaker 4: good too. They I think they made like the pop
Speaker 4: charts right out of the gate and just kind of
Speaker 4: were unfairly labeled as a pop group even though they
Speaker 4: really weren't. They were because a lot more to them.
Speaker 2: No rain song and the catchy video with the little
Speaker 2: girl and everything. Yeah, yeah, Soup was good, man. You
Speaker 2: just check that out. Oh well, it's very good, very sad.
Speaker 2: What happened to him?
Speaker 5: Hey, odeed and they didn't find him for a while, right.
Speaker 2: I don't remember that part, but maybe I think I.
Speaker 5: Think they nobody missed him for a little while or
Speaker 5: something like that.
Speaker 2: But a waste. In nineteen ninety three, though, there was
Speaker 2: another resurgence. I guess that was before the CD when
Speaker 2: they took it to the stage was Schoolhouse Rock Live,
Speaker 2: which kind of started out as most great theater like
Speaker 2: this in a sort of a basement black box theater
Speaker 2: in Chicago, and it just grew from there to eventually
Speaker 2: an off Broadway run.
Speaker 4: Yeah, not just that. It started in the basement theater
Speaker 4: of a vegetarian restaurant in Chicago, just to add that
Speaker 4: extra little dose to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, why not?
Speaker 5: But yeah, it made it onto Off Broadway.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It ran for four solid years and then they
Speaker 2: had a touring version. I remember wanting to see it,
Speaker 2: but and I think I was living in New Jersey
Speaker 2: at the time. I should have gone and seen it.
Speaker 2: I think I had no money at the time.
Speaker 5: I think it's still you still might be able to
Speaker 5: catch it. There's a group called the Theater Bomb Theater
Speaker 5: Bam Chicago Theater.
Speaker 2: BAM Chicago, and they're still doing shows.
Speaker 5: There's still touring.
Speaker 2: As far as I know, I need to do my
Speaker 2: Free to Be You and Me live show. That's one
Speaker 2: of my dreams. I've talked about that before.
Speaker 5: The isn't that Rosie Greer one?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Did he do the whole album or just that one song?
Speaker 2: Just the one? It was conceived by Marlo Thomas.
Speaker 5: That's pretty great.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that was another like that one hits me
Speaker 2: square in the face, still from childhood, right in the
Speaker 2: bread basket, Right in the bread basket. In ninety seven,
Speaker 2: they had a twenty fifth anniversary package of VHS tapes.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so think about this like it goes off the
Speaker 5: air in nineteen eighty five, nineteen eighty five, then all
Speaker 5: of a sudden three ninety four, ninety six, ninety seven,
Speaker 5: there's like Schoolhouse Rock everywhere.
Speaker 2: It will never die, no, And I think like this.
Speaker 4: Was one of the first instances because dude, admittedly, Generation
Speaker 4: CTS is extremely nostalgic as far as generations go, Yeah,
Speaker 4: very nostalgic. I would propose that Schoolhouse Rock was the
Speaker 4: thing that kicked it off. Oh yeah, as far as
Speaker 4: gen X nostalgia goes yep.
Speaker 2: Well, it definitely was something that was so drilled into
Speaker 2: our consciousness. It gets a touchstone, right, But resurgence of it,
Speaker 2: I think, oh yeah, is the first example of just
Speaker 2: how nostalgic as a generation generation exis.
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure, that's that's mine. You got Sharknado.
Speaker 4: I'm predicting that that will be rooted out by historians
Speaker 4: and years to come and.
Speaker 2: Dig that one out of the vault, maybe at the
Speaker 2: place of your death, like a plaque next to that
Speaker 2: rope that you couldn't climb. It'll be a memorial. It'll
Speaker 2: be like rope geez, you already forgot right. In twenty thirteen,
Speaker 2: Kennedy Center had a sing along for their fortieth anniversary.
Speaker 2: Two thousand people in attendance. Pretty amazing. I would have
Speaker 2: done anything to have gone to that. And then it's
Speaker 2: been parodied and homaged over the year and everything from
Speaker 2: The Simpsons to Saturday Night Live.
Speaker 5: Did you see Conspiracy Rock No Conspiracy Theory, Dude?
Speaker 2: That was a TV funhouse bit right, yeah.
Speaker 4: By Robert Smigel. It's one of the all time greats man.
Speaker 4: He nails nails the conspiracy theory or nails The Schoolhouse Rock.
Speaker 4: But it's all about how these major corporations like GE
Speaker 4: and Westinghouse own the media they own like ABC, NBC,
Speaker 4: all these media outlets, and how they can use it
Speaker 4: to shape opinion and squash opinions that disagree with them
Speaker 4: or their products, and choose what you report on.
Speaker 5: It is so good. Go watch it right now. It's
Speaker 5: on YouTube.
Speaker 4: But apparently there's a bit of a conspiracy theory around
Speaker 4: it as well, because it aired on the actual Saturday
Speaker 4: Night Live episode, but then when they re ran it
Speaker 4: and I think released that episode on DVD, it wasn't there.
Speaker 4: They edited it out, and supposedly it was just because
Speaker 4: Lauren Michaels didn't think it was funny.
Speaker 5: There's just no way. Yeah, that that's all it was.
Speaker 2: It was so I'm thinking, no.
Speaker 5: It was such a smack in the face to NBC
Speaker 5: and like all the other ones.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, and they just had one a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago on that was an homage time just
Speaker 2: a build that was pretty great too.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this was better. You gotta see it, man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a feeling I have and I just
Speaker 2: don't know it.
Speaker 5: He nailed it.
Speaker 2: I'll let you know I'll text you and say I
Speaker 2: have seen it, and you'll say, who's this? I don't
Speaker 2: have your number.
Speaker 4: So I actually ran across a little bit as great
Speaker 4: as Schoolhouse Rock is, I actually ran across criticism of it.
Speaker 2: What yeah, boy, are you gonna shout to leave the room?
Speaker 2: Maybe about to get angry?
Speaker 5: You might want to, all right. So they were teaching.
Speaker 4: Very broad concepts to kids, okay, in ways that kids
Speaker 4: could under stand, and when you're coming when you're coming
Speaker 4: at them with multiplication or grammar whatever. But apparently especially
Speaker 4: with the History Rocks or America Rock Season, depending on
Speaker 4: what you want to call it, that's where the criticism
Speaker 4: tends to come out.
Speaker 5: So there's one called elbow Room. Did you remember that one?
Speaker 2: Got got to get you some elbow room where.
Speaker 4: It's about there's so many white settlers that we just
Speaker 4: got to spread westward.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I see where this is going.
Speaker 4: Not a single Native American has shown in this westward spread.
Speaker 4: They actually mentioned that it's God's will manifest destiny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: So the whole thing kind of I don't want to
Speaker 4: say it came under fire because it's not like everybody's like,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, elbow room forget Schoolhouse Rock. Very few people are,
Speaker 4: but there's criticism of Schoolhouse Rock in that it really
Speaker 4: kind of fed American children the popular line on things,
Speaker 4: and it was just exactly the kind of stuff where
Speaker 4: when you grow up you're like, wow, I was really misled.
Speaker 4: This was first explained to me as a child.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So while we talk about that a lot too,
Speaker 2: about how schools, especially in like the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 2: whitewashed a lot of stuff. Yeah, so this was part
Speaker 2: of that. I can see that. I mean it was
Speaker 2: and I'm not justifying it, but it was definitely of
Speaker 2: the times for.
Speaker 4: Sure, you know, which is why you know, I think
Speaker 4: that they that these creatives were like, we can't say
Speaker 4: this to kids, right, you know.
Speaker 5: I think that there's definitely been more of an awakening
Speaker 5: in recent years.
Speaker 2: But I wasn't in a trail of tear song, right. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And this is another name for what they were talking about,
Speaker 4: like forced removal was turned into get you got to
Speaker 4: get you some elbow root. I want to know, Chuck,
Speaker 4: because I'm not in school, and I don't have a
Speaker 4: child in school.
Speaker 5: I don't have a child at all. Well, I have
Speaker 5: a four leg good child.
Speaker 4: But are they still misleading kids like they did when
Speaker 4: we were young? Do we just assume now that we
Speaker 4: know the deal that they don't do that any longer?
Speaker 4: Or are they still doing it? So any history teachers
Speaker 4: out there that are like fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth grade,
Speaker 4: because that's what I remember really being just overtly lied to.
Speaker 4: And then as we got a little past that, they
Speaker 4: started to be like, well maybe the Native Americans didn't
Speaker 4: really want to leave, right, and then it just got
Speaker 4: a little more legitimate. So I want to know teachers
Speaker 4: out there let us know.
Speaker 2: I bet the answer will get is that we've come
Speaker 2: a long way, and it probably depends on your district.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and maybe even your teacher.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 2: I bet there's not like a one sweeping answer for
Speaker 2: that one, but there's definitely been progress.
Speaker 5: You know, I would guess. Yeah, who'd let us know
Speaker 5: is Tyler Murphy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Murphy would let us know. Well, I know what
Speaker 2: he's doing. He's doing all the right things.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, he's up on the desk. Yeah yeah, opening minds,
Speaker 4: great stuff.
Speaker 2: So you ready for my favorite? Yes?
Speaker 5: Please?
Speaker 2: Rufus Xavier Sasparilla. What was that one about pronouns. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I have a hard time expressing how much joy this
Speaker 2: song brings me. Still, I listen to it a lot
Speaker 2: if I'm ever down. That's the song that's pretty great.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. It's the word play is unbelievable. And it's
Speaker 2: another Sheldon song, like how it's it's very fast? How
Speaker 2: he like every I looked up to see if people
Speaker 2: did it live and stuff, and everyone always slows it
Speaker 2: down because nobody can.
Speaker 5: Oh is that fast?
Speaker 2: Well, it's just very complex, And the whole idea of
Speaker 2: the song is is the complexity of all these nouns
Speaker 2: that you can replace with pronouns. I got a friend
Speaker 2: named Rufus Xavier Sasparilla, and you know, they go to
Speaker 2: the zoo and there's an ardvark in an armadillo and
Speaker 2: all these big words. He's like, I could say that,
Speaker 2: or could say he did this and we did that
Speaker 2: and she said this nice. Yeah, it's a word that
Speaker 2: takes the place of a noun like kangaroo.
Speaker 5: Can we play it?
Speaker 2: You know what? We wouldn't because of law. They should
Speaker 2: make a actually one about copyright infringement.
Speaker 5: It was sorted out as a bill.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we probably can't play enough of it to
Speaker 2: do with justice. So I just say go and listen
Speaker 2: to that song in full, because it's delightful.
Speaker 5: All right, I'll do that.
Speaker 4: Man.
Speaker 2: They go to the zoo, there's animals, they'll pile on
Speaker 2: a bus. They yeah, this girl and Rufus Xavier's Asperrilla.
Speaker 5: They yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: It takes a place for it.
Speaker 5: Now you got anything else?
Speaker 2: No, but there probably will be a tag on this
Speaker 2: one with mister and Astanovich, or or with me just
Speaker 2: recounting his tale of No More Kings.
Speaker 4: So if you want to know more about Schoolhouse Rock,
Speaker 4: go read this article on HowStuffWorks dot com. And since
Speaker 4: I said that, it may be time for listener mail
Speaker 4: with Bob Nistanovich.
Speaker 2: All right, So now, as promised or as fully promised,
Speaker 2: we have via telephone in the studio mister Bob Nistanovich,
Speaker 2: who is actually a member of two of my favorite
Speaker 2: bands of all time, both Pavement and Silver Jews. And
Speaker 2: it's a real treat to have you here, Bob. We
Speaker 2: did a show on Schoolhouse Rock and talked kind of
Speaker 2: at length about pavements efforts towards that I guess late
Speaker 2: nineties CD and got in touch with you, and you
Speaker 2: said you had a couple of stories to tell.
Speaker 6: It was a We were in Memphis, we were supposed
Speaker 6: to be making a Silver Jews record, and the singer
Speaker 6: of Silver Jews, David Berman, who decided he did not
Speaker 6: want to make the record and he went home, and
Speaker 6: we'd already booked a week of studio time Silver Jews
Speaker 6: had and then subsequently were Steven and myself and Steve
Speaker 6: West were unceremoniously fired from Silver Juice. That's beside the point.
Speaker 6: We were kind of like at all the studio time
Speaker 6: that David was supposed to pay for, sort of bail
Speaker 6: him out, pavements, sort of took that and made a record.
Speaker 6: So Stephen Stephen thankfully had three songs and we made
Speaker 6: a specific trimy p But I guess most significantly in
Speaker 6: regards to this project, Jackie Ferriot, dear friend of ours,
Speaker 6: was supervising the Schoolhouse Rock oblation, and she gave us
Speaker 6: our choice of songs, and it was fairly obvious to
Speaker 6: us that No More Kings, you know, had a lot
Speaker 6: of appeal. It's always our favorite one. We were kids
Speaker 6: Boston tea party theme kind of we were able to
Speaker 6: use the vocal stylings of Steve West to our advantage,
Speaker 6: I believe, for the first time in band history for
Speaker 6: that song, and it all turned out to be. We
Speaker 6: were very pleased with it. In fact, we're very pleased
Speaker 6: with all of it, and I think that it's an
Speaker 6: outstanding compilation and it's one of those things in Pavements
Speaker 6: time that I feel like we actually did a good
Speaker 6: job on.
Speaker 2: Now, what what did Steve West do for that one?
Speaker 6: He played drums and then all the deep voice rambling
Speaker 6: in the background. Ah, mostly him. He's got an incredible
Speaker 6: voice speaking voice. He's one of the people that you
Speaker 6: can hear from one hundred and fifty feet away with
Speaker 6: a win. We've got a beautiful deep voice. So he's
Speaker 6: doing all like the ranting and raving. It was all
Speaker 6: pretty jubilant. We had a good time. It was the
Speaker 6: only time the three of us ever recorded together ass Pavement,
Speaker 6: and I feel like we made a good choice and
Speaker 6: we just loved that song.
Speaker 2: It was one take, oh really.
Speaker 6: Overdub yeah, one take on the instrumental and just some
Speaker 6: vocal dubbing. Probably took eight minutes, wow, And it was
Speaker 6: just the three of you. Oh yeah, yeah, just the
Speaker 6: three of us were the only ones there because we
Speaker 6: thought it was gonna be Silver Chews and Silver Cheese,
Speaker 6: so Camber again Eye Bowled were at home and I
Speaker 6: don't even know if they were contacted. We made that
Speaker 6: specific trim EP that song Give It a Day during
Speaker 6: the same session, and a couple other songs are on
Speaker 6: the B side of that thing. But now the School
Speaker 6: ass Rock was this kind of thing popping in mind, like, well,
Speaker 6: do we have anything to do and seems like I
Speaker 6: got this one song. It's like, well, we have to
Speaker 6: do this thing for Jackie. We have to do this
Speaker 6: thing for Jackie. We probably sort of planning on doing
Speaker 6: it anyways. But Jackie at the time was a VJ
Speaker 6: at MTV and she later became our So she was
Speaker 6: the nanny for Courtney and Kurt, for Francis Bean Cobain,
Speaker 6: and then she was a tour manager for payment. In fact,
Speaker 6: she has she's been battling cancer for over a decade.
Speaker 6: But one interesting artifact that she owns is the actual
Speaker 6: cardigan Cardigan's button up cardigan sweater that Kurt Cobain wore
Speaker 6: in the famous MTV Unplugged performance.
Speaker 2: Holy Cow.
Speaker 6: So yeah, she's quite a character, but it was it
Speaker 6: was her project, and you know, she was a good
Speaker 6: friend and we want to do the best we could
Speaker 6: for her. I didn't really care about anything else. We
Speaker 6: didn't even really we didn't know whether there was a
Speaker 6: good tiny thing like a limited edition of like two
Speaker 6: hundred or whatever. But yeah, funnily enough, my wife, that
Speaker 6: was the first Payment song she ever heard because her sister,
Speaker 6: Oh really, yeah, her sister bought the school Loss rock
Speaker 6: thing when her sister was like fourteen, and my wife
Speaker 6: went would have been about ten, and she heard that.
Speaker 6: It's the first time she ever heard Payment.
Speaker 2: That's pretty funny.
Speaker 6: So yeah, she likes it.
Speaker 2: We were talking a little bit about just your take
Speaker 2: and kind of just the different takes of all the
Speaker 2: artists on that compilation, and a lot of them were
Speaker 2: pretty straightforward, and I think I really like the Pavement
Speaker 2: one the most because it was, uh, it was kind
Speaker 2: of the perfect mix of very straightforward at times and
Speaker 2: then just totally pavement pavementized at times.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's very we don't I mean we straightforward. I
Speaker 6: don't think we're kind of good enough to do things straightforward.
Speaker 6: Like I think it's like you think of like a
Speaker 6: band like Nickel Creek covering our song spitting on a stranger.
Speaker 6: They can and they kind of American at it or whatever.
Speaker 6: But sure like in order to do like straight things,
Speaker 6: you gotta be you gotta be good or else you're
Speaker 6: going to come of humiliate yourself. Like for example, like
Speaker 6: r Em doing like Pylon's Crazy. They could do that
Speaker 6: pretty straight, right because they have that sound, so they
Speaker 6: just you know, but I think that, like I've heard
Speaker 6: a lot of cover songs where it's like a great
Speaker 6: song and like a somebody with a great voice, you know,
Speaker 6: usually like a female will we'll sing it pretty straight.
Speaker 6: And just the fact that it's a somebody with a
Speaker 6: gorgeous voice, you know, bring a class. It sort of works.
Speaker 6: But now we're none of us are none of us
Speaker 6: are good enough to do that. We had to we
Speaker 6: had to devise our own take on it.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Well, I thought it totally worked. Was the Schoolhouse Rock?
Speaker 2: I mean, was that something that you guys were into
Speaker 2: or was there much decision? I mean, besides the fact
Speaker 2: that it was your friend asking was it something that
Speaker 2: you thought was kind of cool or did you feel
Speaker 2: like you should do it?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I thought it was a great idea. At the time,
Speaker 6: we thought it was a great idea, and at that
Speaker 6: point in our lives, I'm guessing it was like ninety six,
Speaker 6: ninety seven somewhere in there. Yeah, yeah, we've forgotten, you know,
Speaker 6: you like that point where you know that we hadn't
Speaker 6: seen or heard any of that. The only one I
Speaker 6: could really remember off the top of my head at
Speaker 6: the time was that conjunction Junction you know, yeah, of course,
Speaker 6: what's your function? But like you know, those are some
Speaker 6: of the first songs when we were a little kids,
Speaker 6: like under ten years old that got stuck in our head. Yeah,
Speaker 6: because so yeah, I just thought it was I mean,
Speaker 6: if anything, I the only negative. I thought it might
Speaker 6: be a little bit childish and corny. But you know,
Speaker 6: the as that came together, it just seemed like a
Speaker 6: very worthwhile to me. And you know, she was pretty
Speaker 6: earnest Jackie, and and I'm happy it all worked out.
Speaker 6: I kind of I think it's actually become like sort
Speaker 6: of a one of the more significant things that Pavement
Speaker 6: ever did, sort of outside the realm of Pavement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I'll.
Speaker 6: Still being Pavement, Like you know, I don't even know.
Speaker 6: I'm the kind of person in regards to that band
Speaker 6: that would find out about things to last. So I
Speaker 6: lived in Louisville, and I was always at the racetrack,
Speaker 6: and and you know, people would say, hey, you know what,
Speaker 6: you're going to be making a new album like two months.
Speaker 6: I wouldn't have anything about her, Like you know, you're
Speaker 6: going on tour, You're starting in London, I would like
Speaker 6: you know, I just wouldn't even know. And like so
Speaker 6: anything that rolled through the door there, like request to
Speaker 6: do stuff, I never knew about him, you know, unless
Speaker 6: you were gonna do them, you know. So right, you
Speaker 6: can see where I was on the Pavement, the Pavement
Speaker 6: Totem poll.
Speaker 2: Well man, I always call you Pavement's secret weapon.
Speaker 6: Uh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I think there was something about your addition to the
Speaker 2: band that really just sort of mixed everything up. Whether
Speaker 2: it was you know, the percussive elements, are just you
Speaker 2: coming in with your your unique take on backing vocals.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I I think I presented the element really
Speaker 6: not entirely knowing what I was doing, and that was true.
Speaker 6: And the funny thing about it is like, even at
Speaker 6: this point in my life and people who are completely
Speaker 6: unaware of Pavement mostly from this industry, the horse racing industry.
Speaker 6: Like heard I was I was in a band, even
Speaker 6: a successful band that can't even they just doesn't make
Speaker 6: any sense to them. And then they'll also, you know,
Speaker 6: they'll have to like look it up on Google or
Speaker 6: whatever to realize that, yeah, we were actually like a
Speaker 6: band that made records and stuff. And then and then
Speaker 6: the funny thing is he'll always ask me to you know,
Speaker 6: if it's musotypes or something. I'm like, one thing I'm
Speaker 6: really sort of unaware of in the human race. I
Speaker 6: have no feel for people that like kind of collect
Speaker 6: musical gear and take music really really seriously and like
Speaker 6: playing music really seriously and like jam and like or
Speaker 6: just really like have this incredibly dry approach to like
Speaker 6: like gear heads who like are really really serious and
Speaker 6: like people ask me to jam and I don't. I
Speaker 6: mean my idea of I don't. I don't jam. I
Speaker 6: mean I can't imagine jamming, Like what does that even mean?
Speaker 6: Like really awkward, Like it's always awkward, Like people ask
Speaker 6: me to do something and then I'll be like, oh, man,
Speaker 6: like uh, you know, like I got to figure out
Speaker 6: a way to get out of this, you know, because
Speaker 6: like a my skills, Like they're not going to really
Speaker 6: not gonna believe them in a band, Like once I
Speaker 6: show up with like whatever, I have two drums or
Speaker 6: whatever and start hitting and they're gonna be like, there's
Speaker 6: no way this guy was in a band, Like this
Speaker 6: is a fake, you know, so very strange, very strange.
Speaker 2: Well you just got to say, now, man, I'm the
Speaker 2: secret weapon, and the secret weapon.
Speaker 6: Doesn't m yeah, like this like the spice and like
Speaker 6: some sort of bowl of brigo or something. I don't
Speaker 6: even know. It was just like the whole experience was
Speaker 6: pretty magical. It still doesn't really make that much sense
Speaker 6: to me, you know, Yeah, I just I really enjoyed
Speaker 6: it for sure. But in regards to that specific project,
Speaker 6: that's something that went like really smoothly, like it never
Speaker 6: got to the point. I mean it was literally like Stephen,
Speaker 6: I'm sure probably worked on it that morning or something.
Speaker 6: But when when they press record on that School as
Speaker 6: Rock thing, that thing was a humdinger. It was in
Speaker 6: and out the door, Doug Easy. It's like that's good,
Speaker 6: you know, like, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2: Probably a good approach for something like that because you
Speaker 2: don't want to overthink it. And then it becomes a
Speaker 2: thing and it's stressful perhaps, so I think that approach
Speaker 2: to just get in there and like knock it out
Speaker 2: was probably the way to go. It certainly worked out
Speaker 2: in this case.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's a song that has no history within
Speaker 6: the context of the band. You know, it's not like
Speaker 6: something that we've been working on or something that have
Speaker 6: been sitting there, or something that have been played live
Speaker 6: or Yeah, you know, I mean I think that we
Speaker 6: had to you know, pavementize it and give it a
Speaker 6: bit of an original spin because that's the only way
Speaker 6: that we can really do it. I mean, like, you know,
Speaker 6: like we were talking about with a straight thing, you know,
Speaker 6: you can't. You got to have significance. Yeah, not that like,
Speaker 6: you know, Steve and Steve West aren't talented. I'm not
Speaker 6: gonna like those guys are great, but like in fact,
Speaker 6: the fact they're able to like throw improvise right something
Speaker 6: like that's pretty cool. So but I remember being really
Speaker 6: really happy that Steve West, who never really been used
Speaker 6: in Pavement outside of just playing drums, that he was
Speaker 6: that he sort of fit fantastically on that, Yeah, that recording.
Speaker 6: So I sort of love that about No Markings. I
Speaker 6: love hearing him in there.
Speaker 2: Nice all right, Well, thanks, Bob. I appreciate your telling
Speaker 2: us these stories, and I'm going to think of about
Speaker 2: one hundred more reasons to have you on in the future.
Speaker 6: Yeah, anytime.
Speaker 2: I'm going to call this one sad yet happy email.
Speaker 2: Hey guys, my name is Sam. I want to send
Speaker 2: you an email thanking you for your show. The podcast
Speaker 2: is actually a rediscovery for me. My dad used to
Speaker 2: play it back in two thousand and nine and we
Speaker 2: would drive up to the mountain to go skiing. Very
Speaker 2: fond memories of laughing and nerding out with my dad
Speaker 2: and brothers after a great day on the slopes. Can't
Speaker 2: believe you guys are still going strong after eight plus years.
Speaker 2: There is a little more to my rediscovery of your show, though,
Speaker 2: that I wanted to share. It's been four and a
Speaker 2: half years since one of my brothers, who was an
Speaker 2: amazing skier, died tragically to suicide. Since I was in
Speaker 2: college at the time, it didn't have enough time to
Speaker 2: properly grieve. Recently, I've been mulling through many painful memories
Speaker 2: that I ignored in those first three years. However, your
Speaker 2: show unexpectedly brought back really happy ones. It is reminded
Speaker 2: me the fun adventure in learning our family enjoyed while
Speaker 2: listening to your show when we are skiing. I remember
Speaker 2: laughing hysterically with my family your jokes, rolling my eyes
Speaker 2: when my brothers and dad would try to comment on
Speaker 2: your show to sound smart because it was so creepy.
Speaker 2: One of your favorite episodes of ours was the one
Speaker 2: on cannibalism. Being a high schooler at the time, I
Speaker 2: also really liked the show on flirting, so I thought
Speaker 2: I could put it into practice. Needless to say, it
Speaker 2: didn't really work. What This month, I went home for
Speaker 2: a week to visit my parents, and I went skiing
Speaker 2: with my mom and dad for the first time since
Speaker 2: my brother died. It was very painful, but also unimaginably special.
Speaker 2: When my family and I are on the mountain, I
Speaker 2: feel like I can encounter my brother as he was.
Speaker 2: He was healthy and full of life. I could picture
Speaker 2: him diving down a slope that was way too steep
Speaker 2: with the most enormous grin on his eager face. All
Speaker 2: in all, it was a great day. So I just
Speaker 2: want to say thank you with the hard work and
Speaker 2: providing interesting topics to fill my time. Making me laugh,
Speaker 2: but also inadvertently helping me cherish a special time in
Speaker 2: my life. Man, guys, heavy that is from Sam and
Speaker 2: she sends hugs.
Speaker 4: Sam, that is fantastic. Very thank you very much for
Speaker 4: letting us know. We appreciate that and our best to
Speaker 4: your whole family.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 4: If you want to get in touch with this like
Speaker 4: Sam did and just lay one honest, we appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Lay it honest, send us an email to Stuff podcast
Speaker 4: at iHeartRadio dot com.
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