1
00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:06,000
Speaker 1: This is Master's in Business with Barry rid Holds on

2
00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:12,120
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio this weekend on the podcast Wow, I have

3
00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: a fun, extra fun, extra special Anyway, I have a

4
00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,400
Speaker 1: really fun guest. Dan Harris wrote the book Ten Percent Happier.

5
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,439
Speaker 1: It's a short read on how he was kind of

6
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,800
Speaker 1: messed up, depressed, using drugs and literally had a panic

7
00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,280
Speaker 1: attack on Live TV where he was a newsreader and

8
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,199
Speaker 1: an anchor. And he tells the story of how he

9
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,639
Speaker 1: sort of stumbled his way into mindfulness and meditation. And

10
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,199
Speaker 1: what I really found fascinating about the book is there

11
00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,159
Speaker 1: are no great promises. This isn't going to change your life.

12
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,680
Speaker 1: It's called ten percent Happier because hey, if you can

13
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,240
Speaker 1: make your life ten percent better, that sounds like worthwhile

14
00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: trade to me. And Dan is a fascinating guy. Really

15
00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 1: tells a wonderful story of about how he stumbled into this

16
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,920
Speaker 1: area of self help and how it really helped turn

17
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,480
Speaker 1: his depression and his life around. And I found Dan

18
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,880
Speaker 1: to be a fascinating guy who really has a good

19
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,040
Speaker 1: sense of human psychology and the condition we're all born

20
00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:26,039
Speaker 1: into and teaches us practically how to make the best

21
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 1: of the wetwear that we've all inherited. I thought this

22
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,560
Speaker 1: was fascinating conversation and I think you will find it

23
00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,399
Speaker 1: so also, with no further ado, my conversation with ten

24
00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,240
Speaker 1: percent Happiers Dan.

25
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,040
Speaker 2: Harris, Thank you Berry, happy to be here.

26
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,119
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about your background. Bachelor's

27
00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 1: in English at Colby College was the plan Oway's journalism.

28
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:48,880
Speaker 1: From day one.

29
00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,880
Speaker 2: I had TV news and the movies mixed up in

30
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,559
Speaker 2: my mind. I kind of thought they were the same thing.

31
00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,000
Speaker 1: So I sometimes they are.

32
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:05,800
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, I had this desire to do something fun

33
00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 2: and glamorous. TV news is fun, but not very glamorous.

34
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,240
Speaker 2: But I went and did film school here in New

35
00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,040
Speaker 2: York City at NYU for a semester while I was

36
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,240
Speaker 2: at Colby College, and it was not very good at film,

37
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,920
Speaker 2: but I did love the documentary course I took. So

38
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,560
Speaker 2: I then took a lot of internships and TV news

39
00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:24,680
Speaker 2: and then I went off in that direction.

40
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,399
Speaker 1: So glamorous, You're in Baghdad covering the war, you fly

41
00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,079
Speaker 1: right into the middle of Katrina. That seems like sexy,

42
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,519
Speaker 1: real stuff happening. Was some of television glamorous.

43
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when I got to the national and

44
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,040
Speaker 2: international level, it was pretty glamorous. I was more talking

45
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,000
Speaker 2: about right out of college. I spent seven years in

46
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,000
Speaker 2: local news in places like bangor main or Portland, Maine.

47
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,400
Speaker 2: I was covering tire fires and murders with a musket

48
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,240
Speaker 2: and like lots of random stuff.

49
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,120
Speaker 1: So let's forward a little bit. Not only you at

50
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,880
Speaker 1: ABC for a while, but eventually they you to be

51
00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,200
Speaker 1: a fill in nights and weekends and late and then

52
00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,760
Speaker 1: you get a call to fill in working with you know,

53
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,679
Speaker 1: some of the bigs, and you have what can only

54
00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 1: be described as a panic attack on live television. Tell

55
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 1: us about that experience.

56
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 2: It was awful. This was two thousand and four. I

57
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 2: was filling in as a newsreader. That's like the person

58
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,000
Speaker 2: would come on at the top of each hour and

59
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 2: read the headlines on Good Morning America. And I was

60
00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,800
Speaker 2: a few seconds into my spiel and just lost it

61
00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 2: and my heart started racing, lungs seized up, I couldn't breathe,

62
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,800
Speaker 2: which is inconvenient if you're trying to do the news

63
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,680
Speaker 2: that can be Yeah, it what didn't work And I

64
00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:47,440
Speaker 2: had to quit right in the middle of my thing.

65
00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 2: And it was super humiliating, very scary, and I you know,

66
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:55,520
Speaker 2: in the end it turned out to be a really

67
00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,280
Speaker 2: good thing for me, But in the moment, it was

68
00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:58,880
Speaker 2: the most embarrassing moment of mine.

69
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,160
Speaker 1: Now, to be fair, and you can find it on

70
00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,560
Speaker 1: YouTube and elsewhere. You look like you're in a little

71
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,840
Speaker 1: bit of distress, you have a little bit of difficulty breathing.

72
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure it felt much worse on the inside. But

73
00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,680
Speaker 1: credit to you. You kind of kept it together long

74
00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,200
Speaker 1: enough to finish one of the segments and then tapped out,

75
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,680
Speaker 1: even though you had a couple more segments to go.

76
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,720
Speaker 1: Unless you were paying close attention, I think the average

77
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,640
Speaker 1: viewer might not have noticed anything other than suddenly, the

78
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 1: video doesn't match what's going on.

79
00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it helps to be a sociopath, you know,

80
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,320
Speaker 2: like I can really hide my emotions. I think you know.

81
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,320
Speaker 2: I was thirty two at the time. I had spent

82
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,080
Speaker 2: basically my whole adult life on camera. I really knew

83
00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,120
Speaker 2: how to keep it together in every circumstance. I'd been

84
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,680
Speaker 2: in war zones, and so, yes, you're right, when you

85
00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 2: look at the video, it's not like I'm there's flop

86
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,440
Speaker 2: sweat and I'm ripping the mic off and running right

87
00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:52,680
Speaker 2: with the.

88
00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 1: Scene from broadcast news with Albert Brooks like just drenched

89
00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 1: as always cracks me up. But that said, it leads

90
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,640
Speaker 1: to the obvious question. You've been in harrowing situations where

91
00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,760
Speaker 1: there's death and destruction literally, not no hyperbole. You were

92
00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 1: in Iraq and Baghdad and Katrin and a bunch of

93
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,280
Speaker 1: other horrific situations. What led up to this moment that

94
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,000
Speaker 1: made it so disorient I.

95
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,919
Speaker 2: Think it was being in horrific situations and then coming

96
00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:28,159
Speaker 2: home and having undiagnosed depression and anxiety, and then self

97
00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,520
Speaker 2: medicating with recreational drugs.

98
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 1: I love the expression self medicating. We're just getting high.

99
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,000
Speaker 2: This is what you're saying, Yes, getting high before we

100
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 2: self medicate or get high with lots of stuff, sure, shopping, gambling, entertainment,

101
00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 2: social media, sex, we are food.

102
00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,599
Speaker 1: There were constant being junkies as.

103
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:57,960
Speaker 2: We're soothing this this inner insatiability, this inner fear. And

104
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,880
Speaker 2: so for me it was cocaine. And I was not

105
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,839
Speaker 2: high when I was on the air having the panic attack,

106
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,080
Speaker 2: So it was only afterwards when I went to a

107
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 2: shrink and he asked, what you know, do you do drugs?

108
00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,039
Speaker 2: Could that may be a contributor? And I was like, oh, yeah,

109
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:12,880
Speaker 2: well I don't really do drugs, just some blow on

110
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,200
Speaker 2: the weekend and then I'm back on the desk ready

111
00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:16,480
Speaker 2: to go.

112
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,159
Speaker 1: So let's talk about how this led. I hate the

113
00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,719
Speaker 1: expression journey, but how this led to your next couple

114
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:30,040
Speaker 1: of steps. Your preconceptions about meditation were misconceptions, you write

115
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,679
Speaker 1: in the book tell us why It's funny.

116
00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,560
Speaker 2: I hate the word journey too. It's like, right, I

117
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 2: feel it's so it's so wilful. It's also it's just

118
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,320
Speaker 2: like played out. It's hackneyed, cliche, And I think a

119
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 2: big being personicity about language, or like being picky about

120
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,760
Speaker 2: the words that I use, is really the only value

121
00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,360
Speaker 2: that I'm adding here. I know we're going to talk

122
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,960
Speaker 2: about business, but for me, I mean I am really

123
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,359
Speaker 2: interested in meditation or what might be called spirituality, but

124
00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,840
Speaker 2: the way presented so often with words like journey and

125
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:04,520
Speaker 2: heart centered and.

126
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,960
Speaker 1: Very woo, it's it's uh. And kudos for using the

127
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,440
Speaker 1: word persnickety, which is a great word. I really appreciate it.

128
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:12,920
Speaker 2: As soon as it came out of my mouth, I

129
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,000
Speaker 2: was like, oh my god.

130
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 1: No, no, that that works. So we don't love the

131
00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 1: wou side of dressing up what is really a way

132
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:26,040
Speaker 1: to quiet the inner voice that sometimes is really noisy,

133
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,080
Speaker 1: which leads us to the next step on your path.

134
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,320
Speaker 1: And again, sorry, you end up either seeing or meeting

135
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 1: Eckhart tool tell us a little bit about and I'm

136
00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:40,520
Speaker 1: not pronouncing his name.

137
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,600
Speaker 2: Right, it's a hard name to pronounce, right, But tell

138
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,760
Speaker 2: us a little bit about him. Okay. So the first

139
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,560
Speaker 2: thing that happened is I got assigned to cover faith

140
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,840
Speaker 2: and spirituality for ABC News, which I didn't want to do,

141
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,119
Speaker 2: but it turned out to be great and I learned

142
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,760
Speaker 2: a lot. And through that I ended up reading a

143
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 2: book by a guy named Eckhart. Totally is the way

144
00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,080
Speaker 2: he pronounce it, okay, huge selling self help guru. I

145
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,120
Speaker 2: never heard of him because I wasn't interested in self help,

146
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,160
Speaker 2: but one of my producers recommended I read his book.

147
00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,520
Speaker 1: Tell us about tole and what did you learn from?

148
00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,560
Speaker 2: So he presents, at least to my eyes and ears

149
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,720
Speaker 2: then as just totally off putting. You know, he has

150
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,480
Speaker 2: this otherworldly ethereality to him. He's this small German Man

151
00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,560
Speaker 2: who writes about having a spiritual awakening and he uses

152
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 2: the word vibration a lot. He was not really my

153
00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,880
Speaker 2: cup of tea robes. But but, but I wouldn't be

154
00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,320
Speaker 2: surprised if he given what I read in his book,

155
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,200
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have been surprised if that's how he showed up.

156
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,520
Speaker 2: But he's actually just like a guy who wears khakis.

157
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,800
Speaker 2: So at first I was very unimpressed with him, But

158
00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,400
Speaker 2: then he started to unfurl this thesis about the human

159
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,160
Speaker 2: condition that was utterly captivating for me. His argument is

160
00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,199
Speaker 2: that we all have a voice in our heads, by

161
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,640
Speaker 2: which he's not referring to schizophrenia or hearing voices. He's

162
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,800
Speaker 2: talking about the inner dialogue, the inner conversation that we

163
00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,280
Speaker 2: all have all the time, and that if we broadcast allowed,

164
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:09,719
Speaker 2: we would be locked up.

165
00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,439
Speaker 1: This were canceled at the very least for.

166
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,439
Speaker 2: Damn sure, you'd be canceled. And for all of us,

167
00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,559
Speaker 2: like we wake up, we get you know, chased out

168
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 2: of bed by this voice, and it's yammering at us

169
00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,360
Speaker 2: all day long, constantly, we're wanting things, not wanting things,

170
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,800
Speaker 2: judging people, comparing ourselves to other people, running ourselves down.

171
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 2: And when you're unaware of this NonStop conversation, which totally

172
00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,880
Speaker 2: calls the ego, when you're unaware of the ego it

173
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,480
Speaker 2: owns you. And that to me was a huge aha,

174
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,120
Speaker 2: because I was like, Okay, this is just true and

175
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,520
Speaker 2: I've never heard it before. A and B this ego,

176
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,920
Speaker 2: this voice in my head is what led me to

177
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,959
Speaker 2: have a panic attack. I went off to cover war zones.

178
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,079
Speaker 2: My boss at the time was your colleague David Weston.

179
00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 2: I went off and covered war zones without thinking about

180
00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:00,320
Speaker 2: the psychological consequences, came home, got depressed, was insufficient self

181
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,640
Speaker 2: aware to know I was depressed, and then blindly self

182
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,720
Speaker 2: medicated or got high, and then it all blew up

183
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,959
Speaker 2: in my face and it was all the ego and

184
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,080
Speaker 2: so that got me. Really that changed my life, And

185
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,960
Speaker 2: that's an overused phrase, but that is genuinely true. Reading

186
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,160
Speaker 2: that book changed my life.

187
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,240
Speaker 1: So you go from the tole a book name of

188
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:19,760
Speaker 1: it is.

189
00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,400
Speaker 2: The one I read is called a New Earth.

190
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,960
Speaker 1: But he has like a run of books, a whole

191
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:25,520
Speaker 1: run of books.

192
00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 2: He's written a whole bunch of books.

193
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 1: And from there you start meditating, tell us about what

194
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,240
Speaker 1: that initial experience was and when you realized, hey, this

195
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,720
Speaker 1: is something I could do on a regular basis.

196
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,120
Speaker 2: So totally is frustrating because he describes the voice in

197
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,240
Speaker 2: the head very well, but doesn't actually give you anything

198
00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,200
Speaker 2: to do about it. A friend of mine has joked

199
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,439
Speaker 2: that he's correct, but not useful, so I was frustrated

200
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,040
Speaker 2: after meeting him. It was only after bouncing around for

201
00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,200
Speaker 2: a little while in the aftermath of that, that I

202
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 2: stumbled upon meditation. And this was like two thousand and eight,

203
00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, so it was before meditation got cool.

204
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,719
Speaker 2: It was cool in the sixties and then it then

205
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,839
Speaker 2: it got uncool, and then it got cool again. And

206
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,800
Speaker 2: like the early oughts, it definitely comes and goes TM

207
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,040
Speaker 2: and transcendent meditation was huge for a while, and now

208
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,160
Speaker 2: it's got all sorts of different names. So what was

209
00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 2: your gateway drug to meditation?

210
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:16,319
Speaker 1: How did you find you.

211
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 2: With the science? I started reading about all this science

212
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,439
Speaker 2: that at that point was not well publicized that showed

213
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,360
Speaker 2: that meditation can rewire key parts of your brain, help

214
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,760
Speaker 2: with anxiety and depression, both of which I've been dealing

215
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,120
Speaker 2: with since as a kid. It can help with your

216
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,760
Speaker 2: blood pressure, boost your immune system. So as a diet

217
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:37,120
Speaker 2: in the wool optimizer, the science really made me, you know, intrigued.

218
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,520
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, maybe I should try this.

219
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,360
Speaker 2: I also thought as a journalist, and you'll you'll relate

220
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,920
Speaker 2: to this barrier. Is like, since the science was not

221
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,080
Speaker 2: well known, I was like, oh, this is a good story.

222
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,120
Speaker 2: Nobody else is on this story. It's one of the

223
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,199
Speaker 2: first times in my life I've ever really been ahead

224
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,480
Speaker 2: of a trend. And so I started trying it, and

225
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,360
Speaker 2: I started with a couple of minutes a day, and

226
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,120
Speaker 2: it was super hard. It was very frustrating. You know,

227
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,600
Speaker 2: when you sit usually, and we don't have to get

228
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 2: too into the details here, but meditation basically involves sitting,

229
00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 2: closing your eyes, trying to focus on one thing. Usually

230
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 2: it's the feeling of your breath coming in and going out.

231
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,120
Speaker 2: You're not breathing deeply, you're just feeling the breath as

232
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,880
Speaker 2: it normally occurs. And then every time you get distracted,

233
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,160
Speaker 2: which is going to happen a million times because our

234
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,960
Speaker 2: minds are wild, you start again and again and again.

235
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,920
Speaker 2: But that last part is really hard because it's like

236
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,160
Speaker 2: holding a while a live fish in your hands, Like

237
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 2: the mind is so squirrely and out of control and

238
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,640
Speaker 2: constantly planning and asking stupid questions, and you know, where

239
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,000
Speaker 2: do journals run wild and blah blah blah, and it's

240
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,240
Speaker 2: very easy to get discouraged and to think you're failing

241
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,640
Speaker 2: at this. And so I struggle with that at first,

242
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:43,640
Speaker 2: and I think most people do.

243
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,040
Speaker 1: Hum. I was struck reading the book how similar some

244
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:53,240
Speaker 1: of the advice about mindfulness is to good investing advice.

245
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,960
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna give you a few lines that I

246
00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,160
Speaker 1: pulled out from the book about how your experience and

247
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,560
Speaker 1: I can't help but point out how similar it is

248
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,440
Speaker 1: to good investing advice. Let's start with striving for success

249
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,760
Speaker 1: is fine as long as you realize the outcome is

250
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,480
Speaker 1: not under your control. Tell us about that.

251
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:13,800
Speaker 2: First of all, I think it's a really good insight

252
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,600
Speaker 2: on your part. I do think there is a big

253
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,520
Speaker 2: overlap between the sanity you want to bring to your

254
00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,640
Speaker 2: everyday mind and the sanity you want to bring specifically

255
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,480
Speaker 2: to this important area of life investing. So non attachment

256
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 2: to results. That's a very sort of clunky phrase that

257
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 2: the Buddhists have given us, but it basically means that

258
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,840
Speaker 2: we live in a world that is utterly out of

259
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 2: our control, and so all we can do there's a

260
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,280
Speaker 2: great expression, all we can do is everything we can do.

261
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,840
Speaker 2: You can work as hard as you want, you can

262
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 2: think as analyze the market is as assiduously as possible.

263
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:55,840
Speaker 2: But things are not fully in our control. So if

264
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,959
Speaker 2: you can have this attitude of like, I'm going to

265
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 2: do everything I can do and recognize eyes that I

266
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,680
Speaker 2: cannot control the outcome, I should not be attached to

267
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 2: specific results. I think that's a recipe for happiness generally

268
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:09,760
Speaker 2: and good investing.

269
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, the best traders I know focus on the process,

270
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,600
Speaker 1: not the results, because if you have a good process,

271
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,240
Speaker 1: even if you have a great process, sometimes outside listen,

272
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 1: we can't control what the Fed's gonna do, well, what

273
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,920
Speaker 1: corporate earnings are, or hey, this debt sealing thing, maybe

274
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 1: it works, maybe it doesn't. But the results are only

275
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,520
Speaker 1: gonna be as good as your process. Plus some randomness

276
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:35,520
Speaker 1: of the world.

277
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely, China shuts down, supply chains get clogged, there's a

278
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,400
Speaker 2: monsoon in India. I mean, there are so many factors

279
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,440
Speaker 2: that are hard to predict, political upheavals, and so what

280
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,600
Speaker 2: do you want to do? Do you want to beat

281
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 2: yourself up every time something happens that's outside of your control.

282
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 2: Is that gonna help your resilience? Is that gonna make

283
00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,440
Speaker 2: your team feel happy to be at the office. No,

284
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,680
Speaker 2: what you want to do is have a good process

285
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 2: and hope for the best.

286
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 1: So another one, a simple question to ask yourself when

287
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,440
Speaker 1: you're worrying. Quote is this useful? And I find that

288
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,000
Speaker 1: to be fascinating. I frequently get calls from clients freaked

289
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,480
Speaker 1: out about I just saw this new story on TV.

290
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,760
Speaker 1: What good does worrying about it do? What value is

291
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:22,560
Speaker 1: that stress?

292
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 2: Sometimes sometimes some amount of worrying and stress helps I

293
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,600
Speaker 2: call it constructive anguish motivation. Yeah, or just like thinking

294
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 2: through the angles. You know, there's a little bit of

295
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 2: hand rigging, and you know, you know, there's a great expression,

296
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 2: never worry alone. So I think talking to you, talking

297
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,440
Speaker 2: to your colleagues, or your friends, or your spouse about

298
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 2: investing or anything else actually makes a lot of sense. However,

299
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,200
Speaker 2: we tend to take our worrying too far. And on

300
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,280
Speaker 2: the seventeenth time that you're running through all the horrible

301
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,680
Speaker 2: things that are going to happen if you don't get

302
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,000
Speaker 2: the ROI you were looking for, or if you miss

303
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,040
Speaker 2: your flight or whatever where it is, maybe ask yourself

304
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,520
Speaker 2: at that moment, is this useful? Would I be better

305
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,160
Speaker 2: off changing the channel and thinking about something else.

306
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:13,240
Speaker 1: So this kind of reflects the title itself. Small improvements,

307
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:19,000
Speaker 1: incremental changes are much more viable than giant transformational wins.

308
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 1: That's a huge insight.

309
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,760
Speaker 2: How many times have you had giant transformational moments They

310
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 2: don't come across or come they don't come over the

311
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 2: transom that often, And often what you think is a

312
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,200
Speaker 2: giant transformational moment becomes a good memory but doesn't get

313
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 2: integrated into your life. Change is hard changes, that's the

314
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,760
Speaker 2: bad news. The good news is it's totally doable. If

315
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,640
Speaker 2: you commit to making small changes. The ten percent happier

316
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,040
Speaker 2: will compound annually like any good investment, and that is

317
00:16:53,320 --> 00:17:01,040
Speaker 2: incredibly good news. Happiness, calm, equanimity, connection, compassion, all of

318
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,399
Speaker 2: the mind states that we want. Just as a brief aside,

319
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 2: we may think we want money, power, success, but really

320
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,159
Speaker 2: what we want when it comes down to it, the

321
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,120
Speaker 2: elementary particles of being alive is mind states. We want

322
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,120
Speaker 2: to feel specific ways, and these mind states are all

323
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,440
Speaker 2: skills that you can train and take responsibility for, and

324
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,000
Speaker 2: that is incredible news. The mind is trainable. You can

325
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 2: see it on the brain scans. You take a baseline

326
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,520
Speaker 2: reading of somebody's brain in an fMRI and then have

327
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,679
Speaker 2: them do meditation for a couple of weeks, put them

328
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 2: back in the scan. Brain is different. The brain can

329
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,240
Speaker 2: be trained, and so extent by extension can the mind,

330
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,080
Speaker 2: and that is radically uplifting news.

331
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,600
Speaker 1: Here's another quote that I really like. Mindfulness represents an

332
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,520
Speaker 1: alternative to living reactively. Yes, so let's talk about the

333
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 1: difference between reacting and responding, which you describe as two

334
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,359
Speaker 1: very different ways to interact.

335
00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,879
Speaker 2: With some input, I can imagine a lot of people

336
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,160
Speaker 2: who are in the world of investing or finance business

337
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,959
Speaker 2: generally having the feeling that if they get too happy,

338
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,600
Speaker 2: they'll lose their edge, and that is not what this

339
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,720
Speaker 2: skill is all about. There's a reason why you see

340
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 2: people in c suites and locker rooms meditating because it

341
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,119
Speaker 2: makes you more sharp, less emotionally reactive. So what you

342
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,600
Speaker 2: want is the ability, as you said earlier, to respond

343
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 2: wisely to things that happen in your life, rather than

344
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:40,120
Speaker 2: being captive to the malevolent puppeteer of your ego that's

345
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 2: going to have you making stupid decisions, saying the thing

346
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 2: that's going to ruin the next forty eight hours of

347
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,920
Speaker 2: your marriage, eating the sleeve of oreos just because some

348
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 2: little thought popped into your head. You want to be

349
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 2: able to respond wisely to your internal stimuli and your

350
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,640
Speaker 2: external stimuli, so they are surfing all of the changes

351
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:57,919
Speaker 2: of life rather than drowning in.

352
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,639
Speaker 1: Them, surfing the changes of life like that. I have

353
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 1: a colleague, Mike Batnik, who has this wonderful chart going

354
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,119
Speaker 1: back thirty forty years and it's called reasons to Sell.

355
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,639
Speaker 1: And you see, every year there's some crazy thing that

356
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,399
Speaker 1: happens that's an excuse to react and sell. But over

357
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,920
Speaker 1: the whole time, that chart goes from the lower left

358
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,399
Speaker 1: to the upper right, and the markets compound and go

359
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,959
Speaker 1: over time. If you react to the reasons to sell,

360
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,159
Speaker 1: you miss out on that big move up. And I

361
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,920
Speaker 1: see parallels in the book for just how we live

362
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 1: our everyday lives.

363
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:33,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, you don't want to miss out on dollar

364
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 2: cost averaging because you're freaking out about every little jot

365
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,880
Speaker 2: and tittle in the news. I've like you. I also

366
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 2: have a podcast also it mine is called ten Percent Happier,

367
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 2: and we spend quite a bit of time talking about

368
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,720
Speaker 2: the psychology of money and because that's a huge part

369
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,400
Speaker 2: of the human condition. We need money, but we also

370
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,160
Speaker 2: don't want to get so obsessed with it that we

371
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 2: make irrational decisions.

372
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 1: So you mentioned executives, athletes, a lot of wool streeters

373
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,160
Speaker 1: very famously meditate, Ray Dallio, pol Tutor Jones, Michael Novogratz,

374
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: Dan Loebe. The list goes on and on on. Have

375
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 1: you worked with any people in finance and how have

376
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: you found their intensity level and their ability to throttle

377
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 1: back a little bit?

378
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 2: Well, then there's acts and billions.

379
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 1: Well, I'm trying to stay away from the fictional character.

380
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 2: It's very interesting get I do a lot of corporate speaking,

381
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 2: and a lot of banks bring me in investment banks,

382
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 2: big banks, And I think it's really about wanting to

383
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 2: wanting to have people who are a more business friendly term,

384
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 2: might be emotionally intelligent, who can ride the waves, you know,

385
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 2: as we said before, rather than drowning in them, and

386
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 2: who can be good leaders instead of acting out all

387
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 2: of their neurosis. These are important skills and in any field.

388
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 2: But I get a lot of invitations from people in finance.

389
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,120
Speaker 1: You mentioned some people are concerned they would lose their

390
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 1: edge not be competitive. Do you have to be paranoid?

391
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 1: And worried all the time to stay at the top

392
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: of your game.

393
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 2: Do you think it helps like I. I mean, this

394
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: is something I've wrestled with a lot. To be curious

395
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 2: to see what your point of view is. You know,

396
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 2: I do a lot of worrying, but at some and

397
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 2: I do believe up unto a certain point, it's useful.

398
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 2: But at some point it's completely degrading my judgment. It's

399
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 2: degrading my sleep, it's degrading my capacity to have an

400
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 2: open mind with peripheral vision for new opportunities because I'm

401
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 2: coiled into anger or fear. You know, only a certain

402
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,160
Speaker 2: amount of it is useful, and I just I can't

403
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,159
Speaker 2: see the argument for being it being perpetually useful.

404
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 1: So the key, since you asked me, I'll answer. The

405
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 1: key from my perspective is you have to worry about

406
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: the right things and recognize. So my favorite joke is

407
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 1: talking to a manager who is complaining about the FED.

408
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 1: First it was quantitative easing, and then it was zero

409
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 1: interest rates, and they're complaining, complaining, complaining, And I in

410
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 1: the back of my head, I'm always thinking, Oh, this

411
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: guy's underperformed for a decade and he's blaming the Fed.

412
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 1: That's very different than saying, Hey, the Fed is talking

413
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 1: a lot about inflation in twenty twenty one, and it

414
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: sounds like they're going to rapidly raise rates. What happens

415
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 1: when rates go up rapidly, Well, it's very bad for

416
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: long dated bonds. I got to tighten my duration and

417
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: known shorter dated bonds so they won't take a ten

418
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 1: or a twenty percent hit if rates do go much higher.

419
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,479
Speaker 1: That seems to be a more responsive way of worrying,

420
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,120
Speaker 1: as opposed to just freaking out about something that's out

421
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: of your control.

422
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: I love what you said, worrying about the right things.

423
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: Prioritize your worry and then stop it, and you know,

424
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: live your life, get enough sleep though. All of those

425
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: things will help your performance. Writ large and useless miismatic.

426
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 2: You know, constant freaking out is rarely helpful.

427
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: So explain to me how do you go from Hey,

428
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: this meditation thing helps me stay a little centered, quiets

429
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: the voices in my head to I know, I'll write

430
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: a book on this.

431
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: This is a business story, actually, because I had an

432
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 2: entrepreneurial feeling back in two thousand and nine. I think

433
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: that I was reading all of these books about meditation

434
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 2: that were really helpful, but they were also really annoying,

435
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 2: and they were written in a cloying sentimental way, and

436
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 2: I thought, well, I'm going to write one that has

437
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: the F word in it a lot, and that tells

438
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,919
Speaker 2: a very embarrassing personal story. And my whole goal was

439
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: to make meditation attractive to a whole new audience of skeptics,

440
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: and that was that was an entrepreneurial itch that I had.

441
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: That's kind of interesting. I love the premise that practicing

442
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: meditation and mindfulness will make you a little happier. Why

443
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: ten percent?

444
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 2: It's funny. I mean it was a joke. I mean

445
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,479
Speaker 2: I was. I was in a conversation with somebody, one

446
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 2: of my colleagues at ABC News, and she was asking me, like,

447
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: why are you into this meditation thing? What's the matter

448
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: with you? And I said I was kind of reaching

449
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 2: for some answer that would satisfy her, and I said,

450
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 2: it makes me like ten percent happier. And I could

451
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: see that it just made her go from scorn to

452
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 2: mild interest, and I thought, Okay, this is my shick.

453
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 2: I'm just going to say that. And my publishers didn't

454
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 2: get the joke. They were trying to bargain me up

455
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: to thirty percent happier, but you're haggling over the title.

456
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 2: We were haggling, but you know the idea of.

457
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: Ten percent happier, the whole concept of incremental change and

458
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: not over selling it. And here's the bar, and then

459
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: we're going to pass the bar. That's a great approach

460
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: as opposed to all the other books that promised to

461
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: transform your life and then sit on the shelf, yes,

462
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: a third read and point.

463
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: If you if they really were going to transform your life,

464
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: those authors wouldn't keep writing more books, right, And that

465
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 2: over promising, that kind of reckless hope that is peddled

466
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: in the darker precincts of the self help world is

467
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: I think what I was really trying to counter program against.

468
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: And like I said earlier, though the ten percent does

469
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 2: compound annually, these are skills and happiness and the other

470
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: mental states that we want our skills, as I keep saying,

471
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: because I think it's so important and interesting and we

472
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 2: can just you can continue to get to improve over time.

473
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: So the first line of the book just cracked me up.

474
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: My inner voice is an explain why your inner voice

475
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: seems to be disagreeing with you.

476
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 2: I think it's a pretty much a statement of the

477
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: universal you know, of the human condition. We have these gnattering,

478
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 2: chattering inner voices that are constantly running us down, constantly

479
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: making negative comments about other people, and that is you know,

480
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: we don't that's not actually something we should feel guilty about.

481
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 2: I think it's because of evolution. You know, evolution bequeathed

482
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: us this mind that is racing. Why because we need

483
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 2: always looking for threats, yes, sabertoothed tigers, food, sexual partners.

484
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: Because natural selection really didn't care about your happiness. It

485
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: cared about getting your DNA into the next generation. And

486
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 2: so that is the mind we're left with. And there

487
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: are beautiful parts of it, like without the racing mind,

488
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 2: we probably wouldn't have skyscrapers or the iPhone, and so, yeah,

489
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: there are a lot of great parts of the human mind,

490
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 2: but there are a lot of bugs in the design.

491
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: And one of the bugs is that we're never satisfied.

492
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: We're rarely satisfied, we're rarely in the present moment. And

493
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 2: the good news is that you can train yourself to

494
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: kind of reduce the power of those bugs.

495
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: So I don't find my inner voice to be as

496
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: distasteful as yours. But I have a very noisy internal dialogue.

497
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: It's lots of distraction, constant input. And my wife says,

498
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: you know, nothing escapes my notice with sitting out having

499
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 1: dinner and after every now and then she's like, tell

500
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: me about the people in that corner. So well, he

501
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: came in from the bathroom, zip was open. After the

502
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: second he walked away, the wife pulled out the phone

503
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: and stud just peripheral vision. And it's not that I'm

504
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: trying to pay attention to other stuff. It's just everything

505
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: is this fire hose of input, and then everybody in

506
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: the back of my head is having a conversation about it.

507
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: So I don't find it's like a nasty, unpleasant person

508
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: chattering away. It's just a cacophony. Yes, and I would

509
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: love to be able to sort of quiet that down

510
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: a bit.

511
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's it's as with a lot of

512
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 2: the things I say. It's meant to be kind of

513
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: poetic language in the form of a joke, and so yes,

514
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: what you're describing isn't necessarily as noxious as some of

515
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 2: the thoughts that come up in my head. And yet

516
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: it is making you less happy, and in that sense,

517
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: it's so. And what my point is is that there

518
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: are practices that can turn the volume down.

519
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about writing the book.

520
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: I know, sometimes it's exhilarating, sometimes it's a slog, sometimes

521
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: it's both. What was your experience like putting this down

522
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: on paper. I know you spent four years writing.

523
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 2: This, five years, I think, ye I. Whenever anybody says

524
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: I really love writing, I think, oh, you must be

525
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: a bad writer, because it's awful. And it just took

526
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 2: so much sweat and grit, and I was doing it

527
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: as a side hustle. I had a full time job

528
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: as the anchor of Nightline and the anchor of Good

529
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: the weekend edition of Good Morning America. It was so hard,

530
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: and I'm now on a I'm writing the sequel right now,

531
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: and I think I'm in my sixth or seventh year.

532
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: It is just so.

533
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: Hard for me to write. I'm trying to learn these

534
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: important lessons and then give it back to you in

535
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: the form of a narrative. I want you to feel

536
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: like you're watching a movie and that you could read

537
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: it in an afternoon, because the story's good and it

538
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: tugs you along, but I need to weave in all

539
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: of these teaching points, and for me, the blocking and

540
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: tackling of that is very, very hard.

541
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: It's work, and it's very hard to do on the

542
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 1: side if you're just doing that. And then when I

543
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: was writing my first book, I remember I had to

544
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: do less because your discipline, your creativity, it's a very

545
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: very small tank and it gets exhausted pretty quickly. So

546
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: at the end of a long day to sit down

547
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: and pound out twenty thirty pages, that's really hard.

548
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. I mean, that's an insight. I hadn't

549
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: really thought about this. It's true. I mean, I have

550
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: retired from ABC News, so I have fewer things on

551
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: my plate, but I host a podcast which is two

552
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: almost three times a week.

553
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: That's a lot.

554
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: It's a lot. And I'm writing this book, and I'm

555
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: I'm working on some TV stuff and I give so

556
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: I have a lot of stuff going on still. And

557
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: one of the biggest battles for me is the tank

558
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: issue that you just talked about, because if somebody gets

559
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: on my calendar in the morning, well that completely derails

560
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: my creative time. And any there's an opportunity cost any

561
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: amount of time I'm thinking about something else or being

562
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 2: creative in somebody else's lane. It reduces my capacity to

563
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: finish my own work.

564
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: When do you do your writing, I personally have found

565
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: like five to eight in the morning is just the

566
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: golden hour.

567
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: I for me, will get up at around seven or eight,

568
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: and because for me, I really try to get enough sleep,

569
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: so I'll get up around seven or eight. I don't

570
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: have a boss, so I can do whatever that I want,

571
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: and I work most of the morning, but I interrupt it.

572
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: So I'll try to not have anything else on my

573
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: calendar til one or two, and so I will write

574
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: for that time, but I will interrupt it with meditation

575
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: and exercise so that I'm not You can't really write

576
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: for within ninety minutes at a time, in my experience.

577
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: There's something to that and then get up from your desk,

578
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: take a walk around the block, come back. That's when

579
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: you could do the edit, revise it. But that creative

580
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: first flow. I love that feeling early in the morning,

581
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: when it's like a clean paper in a fresh reboot,

582
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: where it's just tumble out. It's very very different.

583
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: I really don't have I have very few moments of joy.

584
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: It really is mostly suffering for me, and I'm wondering,

585
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: like can I do this again? I'm fifty one, almost

586
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: fifty two, and you know, I think I could write

587
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: small books or more like how to books. But these

588
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: big books like this one I'm writing now, that is

589
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: like a movie of a true narrative or like ten

590
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: percent happier they just read. It takes so much out

591
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: of me. I'm not sure. Maybe I could do one

592
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: more before I die, but I don't even know.

593
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: So if you break it down into smaller pieces, it's

594
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: much more doable and putting out, you know, a thousand

595
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: word columns, eight hundred word columns. So that's all a

596
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: book is, is a collection of those shorter chats.

597
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,719
Speaker 2: Not my books though, because it has this yard it

598
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: is a movie.

599
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: Oh you could have the the thread weaving through the

600
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: whole tapestry. You could certainly do that.

601
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:19,959
Speaker 2: To me. As soon as that you get into that,

602
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: it's like it's too it's too real. It's too it's

603
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: like building the taj Mahal. You know, it's just too

604
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: that that for me and I maybe just don't have

605
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 2: a good brain. But it doing a discrete thousand word

606
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 2: s occasionally I write something for the Times or whatever

607
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: that's hard, but it's it's discrete and I can get

608
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: it done quickly. But as soon as I have to

609
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: think about the structure, the themes carrying out and building

610
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: upon one another, and the scenes that are required in

611
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: order to teach it, I'm torturing you with you, my,

612
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: with my.

613
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: I have two projects I'm working on, and one of

614
00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: them is just trying to stitch together all these previous

615
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: and the other is something from scratch that's a whole

616
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: broad overview of something that word one. I wrote the

617
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: introduction that was pretty much it. It's easier stitching together

618
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: the previous thoughts then coming up with a whole holistic

619
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: tapestry from scratch that said, the journey of a thousand

620
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: miles begins with one step, and breaking big projects up

621
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: into smaller and smaller chunks makes it doable. Like if

622
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: you're thinking about I have a five hundred word book

623
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: to write, that's paralyzing. I have to write the introduction,

624
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: I have to write the overview. I have to put

625
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: together the structure that makes it almost tolerable.

626
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: I completely agree with you. I just think the difference

627
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: here is that in books like ten percent Happier. And

628
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: in the next book I'm writing, which is called Me

629
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: a Love Story. I'm glad you get that joke. Some

630
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: people don't get it.

631
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: I think that's very fun.

632
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: I'm really trying to make a movie when I mean.

633
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: What I mean by that is it's a yarn. It's

634
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: not a it's not me sharing a bunch of ideas

635
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 2: with you. It should feel like you're on one person's

636
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 2: story the whole way. And weaving the teaching points into

637
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 2: that is just really anyway, I'm rambling at this point.

638
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: No, no, this is so all good. So what do

639
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: you make of the claim that really you just need

640
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: twelve and a half minutes of meditation today to see

641
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: positive results? I keep seeing ten minutes, twelve minutes. How

642
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: realistic is that?

643
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: Okay, So that twelve and a half minute number I

644
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: believe comes from a neuroscientist. He's a friend of mine

645
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: at the University of Miami. Her name is Amishi Ja,

646
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: and she studies high stress people in high stress fields

647
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: like first responders and marines. And she has found that

648
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: the minimum effective dose for her populations is twelve and

649
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: a half minutes a day. And I believe her. However,

650
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 2: I feel like it's daunting for most people to hear

651
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 2: that if you've never meditated before. And so I say

652
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: two things one one minute counts, it will confer benefits.

653
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: And we know from behavior change science that starting small

654
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: is really important. The second thing I have to say

655
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 2: is daily ish, give yourself flexibility. Don't beat yourself up

656
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: if you miss a day, don't get over the persnickety

657
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: about like which time of day you're meditating. Give yourself

658
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 2: a break and take it easy and start small, and

659
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: that is the route to effective habit building.

660
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: So what has the response to the book been like?

661
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: And let me just tell the listening audience. You were

662
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes late from speaking upstairs because we couldn't get

663
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: you out of there because it was a giant line

664
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: of people asking you to sign books. So I have

665
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: to think the response has been really positive.

666
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 2: The most amazing thing that's happened in my professional life,

667
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,439
Speaker 2: you know, right below having a child and getting married.

668
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't believe it. It's almost ten years

669
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: since the book came out. I honestly, honestly thought that

670
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: it would go nowhere.

671
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: You describe it as a fiery failure, Your mom begged

672
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: you not to write about your personal failures.

673
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: Yes, I was terrified and that this thing has turned

674
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: into something that's so helpful for so many people. It

675
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: swallowed my life, you know. I mean, I quit this

676
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 2: career that I loved in TV news to do this

677
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: full time, to host a podcast, to write more books,

678
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: and to give speeches, and it's just incredible. It's absolutely incredible.

679
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 2: And this is a cliche thing I'm about to say,

680
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 2: but I'm like, really grateful.

681
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: Nothing wrong with a little gratitude, can't go wrong with that.

682
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: What practical tips do you have for incorporating meditation, mindfulness,

683
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: whatever into people's daily lives. Because the thing that makes

684
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: the book so interesting versus all the other books is

685
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 1: you really tell people do this, do this, do this,

686
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: as opposed to this sort of woo ooo spiritual be

687
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: at one with the universe, which really, all right, I'm

688
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: one with the universe now, what it really isn't very helpful.

689
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: Yes, So a couple of ways to get started. One

690
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: is there are lots of meditation apps out there, and

691
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 2: they all are either free or they have free trials.

692
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 2: I would do some taste testing. You can also read

693
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: a good book there are plenty of them. One book

694
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 2: that's coming to mind it is called Real Happiness by

695
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: Sharon Salzburg. Very very very very practical. Another thing you

696
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 2: can do is, if you live in a major city,

697
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: most of them have meditation centers where you can drop in.

698
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 2: And even if they're sectarian, in other words, even if

699
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: they're Buddhist, don't worry about it. It's not a proselytizing religionist.

700
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: Buddhists tends to me kind of low key.

701
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 2: I consider myself a Buddhist and I'm not like trying

702
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: to convince anybody to join me in that. In that tradition,

703
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: it's really about giving you exercises to train your mind

704
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: in terms of fitting it into your day. Just like

705
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: I said before, and you can't hear this enough, set

706
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 2: the bar low, don't try to do too much off

707
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: the bat, and don't beat yourself up when you fall

708
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: off the wagon because it's inevitable. So sneak it in

709
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: into the little parts of your day where you've got

710
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 2: an extra minute or two right before dinner, right when

711
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: you pull your car into the garage, either at work

712
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: or when you've come home, little points in the day

713
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 2: where you might otherwise be stressed, fomo inducing Instagram scrolling.

714
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 2: You can do that too, But can you just carve

715
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: one minute out or two minutes out to do this thing?

716
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: I think you can really intriguing. Let's talk about the podcast.

717
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: What made you decide to say I know, I'll talk

718
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: to people about this three times a week.

719
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: You know, generally throughout this whole thing, I've had no

720
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: idea what I was doing, So I'm almost like the

721
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: opposite of a master's a master in business. I've been

722
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: just stumbling through. I wrote the book because I had

723
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: this idea that I could maybe that maybe there was

724
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 2: a space in the market for this. And I turned

725
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: out to be right about that, but I didn't I

726
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 2: wasn't confident as I did it. The book was way

727
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 2: more successful than I think thought, and then I was

728
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: kind of thinking about, like, oh, what do I do next?

729
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: And this was in the book came out in fourteen,

730
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 2: and I think in around sixteen friends of mine were

731
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 2: starting podcasts. I have a buddy named Sam Harris. We're

732
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: not related, but he's not very popular podcast and he's

733
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 2: a friend and I was like, man, I ran into

734
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: somebody in the elevator at ABC News and I was like,

735
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 2: do we do podcasts here? And they were like the

736
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 2: next day there was a bunch of people in my office.

737
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 2: They were like, let's do this. So I started a

738
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: podcast with no real plan. My initial thought was, Hey,

739
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: I'm kind of interested in, like, what's beyond ten percent happier?

740
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: What you know, there's all this talk of enlightenment. Is

741
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: that real? So I really focused it on deep end

742
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: of the pool meditation and Buddhism stuff at first, and

743
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: then over the years, especially during the pandemic, I started

744
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: to expand it to just the human condition and really,

745
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,959
Speaker 2: how do we do life better in all areas of life?

746
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 2: So now we talk about work, we talk about sex,

747
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: we talk about romance, we talk about conflict, boundaries, managing money,

748
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: any area area of life where we tend to suffer

749
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: or struggle. We bring in people to help you unlock.

750
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 2: And that has been totally fascinating. Is really helped me

751
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: do my own life better because this is like an

752
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 2: extended therapy session for which I get paid.

753
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: Huh. Really interesting you have on the podcast His Holiness

754
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: the Dali Lama. How does that come about? Does the

755
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: Lama have an agent or pr firm? How do you

756
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: how do you land the Dali Lama as a podcast?

757
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 2: You know. One one thing that is interesting is I'm

758
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: basically like the beat reporter for Buddhism, Like I know

759
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: most of the Buddhists.

760
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: You know, all the big Buddhists.

761
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 2: I guess I do. Like I'm a little bit like, uh,

762
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: what's that in Caddy Shack Bill Murray talking about getting Yeah,

763
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: I got that going. That's nice.

764
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: Right, You're gonna achieve total consciousness on your deathbed, so

765
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: you have that going for you.

766
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 2: I do, which is nice.

767
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: So by the way, I literally have that line written

768
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: down on the off chance that you would reference it,

769
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: and I'm so happy you did. Yeah, I mean I'm

770
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: eleven percent happy.

771
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 2: Any chance to reference Bill Murray or so. I mean,

772
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 2: I've found myself in this foine. I was like a

773
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: traditional hard charging newsman. I was covering wars and natural disasters,

774
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 2: mass shootings, political campaigns, and then all of a sudden,

775
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 2: I'm like I got interested in meditation. And now I'm like,

776
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: you know, I know all these spiritual leaders. They sleep

777
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: at my house, you know, like this is my life.

778
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: You know, it's very strange. And so.

779
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 2: The dollar alumb was the first guest on my podcast

780
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 2: because one of his best friends is an eminent American

781
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: neuroscientist by the name of Richard Davidson who's friends of mine,

782
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:38,959
Speaker 2: and so I will call Richie once in a while

783
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 2: and be like, hey, can you get the Dollar Lama

784
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: on my show? And he makes it happen, and so

785
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: I actually have had him on four times. And in

786
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 2: the fall, I went over to India and I spent

787
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 2: two weeks hanging around him and we did this whole, big,

788
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 2: long podcast series about the Dalai Lama. And he's a

789
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: fascinating dude.

790
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: To say the very least. When he's in America, does

791
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: he crash on your couch? Or where does the Lama stay?

792
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 2: Well, he's eighty seven or eighty eight now, so he

793
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: is not traveling much. He tends to stay in highly

794
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 2: secure hotel rooms.

795
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: And you said something earlier that I let slip by

796
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: unnoticed because I was so entranced with the Bill Murray reference.

797
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: But you said, you're not a master's in business. You

798
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: never expected that. I can't tell you how many people

799
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: sat across from me who are wildly successful, very accomplished people,

800
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: and they talk about the role of serendipity and random

801
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: luck and just recognizing an opportunity that hey, am I crazy?

802
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: But is this a market that's untapped, And well, it's

803
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: untapped for a reason. Maybe we should tap it and

804
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: see what happens. So how much of your experiences with

805
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: meditation and the book and the podcast and everything else

806
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: around what you've learned is just random luck? And how

807
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: much of it is you saying there's something here and

808
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: it's a new story that no one's really covering.

809
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: I think it's a mixture. I mean, I will never

810
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: underplay luck. I mean, I've been lucky in just so

811
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 2: many areas of my life. And I also think there's

812
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: some strategy and some lucky insights, you know, like I

813
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 2: have a animalistic sense. I think for what is going

814
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: to work in this area and where the shortfalls and

815
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 2: pitfalls are and self help and self development, and you know,

816
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: I think that is actually doing a service. It's been

817
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 2: It's turned out to be quite a lucrative business. And

818
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,720
Speaker 2: I also think that it's helping people and taking these

819
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: ancient teachings and updating them for new audiences.

820
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: Buddha a lucrative side hustle. Whoever would have guessed that.

821
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 1: So before we get to our favorite questions that I

822
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: ask all my guests, I have to just ask about

823
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: the rain technique Recognize, allow, investigate, non identify. How familiar

824
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: are you with the loop from the fighter pilot I

825
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: want to say, Boyd. I'm trying to remember his name,

826
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: John Boyd, Colonel John Boyd, which is all right. So

827
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: the loop is observe, orient, decide act And this was

828
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: early mid century US Air Force trying to figure out

829
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: what sort of advantages can we give to fighter pilots

830
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: when it was still you know, hand to hand air

831
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: to air combat, not just press a missile and forget

832
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: about it. That idea of recognize, allow, investigate, non identify

833
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 1: is very similar to on a completely different context, observe, orient,

834
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 1: decide act it. It's just funny how those four steps here,

835
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,439
Speaker 1: you're trying to deal with something internally. There you're dealing

836
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: with an external threat. Tell us about the rain technique.

837
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 2: I mean, I love that. I think there are lots

838
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: of these acronyms out there that help you just navigate life.

839
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 2: Rain is recognized, allow, investigate, non identification. So that sounds

840
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 2: like a mouthful, but it's pretty simple. You're in a

841
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: tough moment, you're struggling, and it could be something internal

842
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: or external, and very quickly you can learn how to

843
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: do these four steps. Recognize it, just to notice what's happening.

844
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: Right now, figure out what's going on, Wake up.

845
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: To what's happening right Allow is instead of fighting it

846
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 2: or acting on it in some way that is fighting it,

847
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: Like I'm feeling like some tiny pang of hunger and

848
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna randomly eat the most recent thing, or

849
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 2: my wife said something mildly annoying and I'm going to

850
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 2: snap at her instead of acting blindly, just allow the

851
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: feeling to be there. I is investigate, which doesn't mean

852
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 2: like where did this come from? And you know it's

853
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 2: not a cognitive thing. It's more just like, how is

854
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: this showing up in my body? Can you investigate? How

855
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: is this anger or hunger? Where am I experiencing in

856
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: my body? Which just allows you to sort of take

857
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 2: it in on a deep level and be with it

858
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: in the current moment. And non identification is to recognize

859
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 2: that you don't need to take your innership personally. And

860
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 2: you didn't create your mind, you didn't create your body,

861
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 2: you didn't create the world. You may think you have

862
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 2: all of this agency, you're this ego separate from the world,

863
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: peering out fretfully from behind these eyeholes, But you're part

864
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: of the universe. Sounds a little out there, but it's

865
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,240
Speaker 2: actually non negotiably true. And so all of this stuff

866
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 2: is nature. You are nature. And can you, just, sir

867
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: a second, see your emotion from that perspective so that

868
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 2: it doesn't own you. And I just think this is

869
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 2: a nice little way to navigate the world.

870
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: I like it. I like a lot. Let's jump to

871
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: our favorite questions and we'll get you out of here

872
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: in time to hit your next gig. Starting with tell

873
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: us what you're consuming for entertainment, What are you streaming

874
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: or watching? What podcasts you're listening to give us a

875
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:58,439
Speaker 1: little bit about what's keeping you.

876
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: Entertaining success Baby, I was Succession, you know. I mean

877
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 2: not only am I, you know, watching the show as

878
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 2: it wraps up, but my wife and I love it

879
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: so much we went back and started watching from season

880
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 2: one as really, and I think it's just a masterful

881
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 2: piece of art. The writing, the acting, it's all just incredible.

882
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: And it's hard to watch because you're just watching it.

883
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: It's one of the most violent shows I've ever seen.

884
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: So funny you say that I couldn't get past the

885
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: second episode. I didn't have that experience with the Sopranos.

886
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: I didn't have that experience with a lot of other

887
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: great television I had a hard time with.

888
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: So I had the similar experience with you with Succession.

889
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: The first time I watched it, I didn't like it,

890
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 2: and I set it aside. And then COVID hit and

891
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: I got COVID, and I was in bed, and I

892
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 2: watched seasons one and two because I was in bed

893
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 2: and bored and what it has to do. And then

894
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: I got it because I really had to live with

895
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 2: it for a minute.

896
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 1: It is so a commitment. Here fourteen hours. See if

897
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: you like it.

898
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: Well, if I didn't like it, I would have watched

899
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 2: something else. But it is first of all, one reason

900
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: to stay with it is very funny, extremely funny, and

901
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 2: it gets funnier as it goes. The other reason to

902
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 2: live with it is it's doing what I love in

903
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: great art, which is it's transporting you into a different

904
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: world that feels real, and so that's just anthropologically interesting.

905
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 2: But it is a hard show because you're watching people

906
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: do very skillful interpersonal violence to one another, and the

907
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 2: show does a kind of violence to you because three

908
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 2: percent of the time they will allow real human kindness.

909
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: And that is what is the cruelest twist. It's keeping you, Oh,

910
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: maybe these people aren't the worst in the world. Yeah,

911
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: and then the ship comes in correct, right in the kidney.

912
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love your concept of transporting you to a

913
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: world that feels almost real. The Diplomat is just an

914
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: eight souit Yeah, yes, yeah, just really well written and

915
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: well afted. And then if you like Bridgerton the prequel

916
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 1: Queen Charlotte, it's this crazy, colorful, weird, almost believable alternative

917
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: world that's like with great characters and great writing. And

918
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: you know, you did what you made me think of

919
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: Queen Charlotte, because it's that transporting you to someplace that

920
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: almost feels real. It's like one thing that's off that

921
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: keeps it fictional, but it's close.

922
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,439
Speaker 2: I'll give you one two other little entertainment things. One

923
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 2: is Hacks on HBO Max or now it's just called Max.

924
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 2: It's very funny, she's amazing, she's incredible.

925
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 1: Amy Smart is it not Amy Smart?

926
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 2: What is her name? Yes, she's fantastic, Gene Smart, Jean Smart, Yes,

927
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 2: and the comedian Theo Vaughn who's been showing up for

928
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 2: me a lot on social media. He is totally inappropriate

929
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 2: but also just incredibly funny. I mean, just like he's

930
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 2: very clippable. You can make short little clips of him

931
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: as pithy little things.

932
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: That's hilarious. Tell us about your mentors who helped to

933
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: shape your career.

934
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 2: I mentioned a couple of people in the course of

935
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 2: this conversation. David Weston, who's one of your colleagues at Bloomberg,

936
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: who was my boss at ABC News. Incredible boss and

937
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: really helped me in my career. Sam Harris, who I

938
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: also mentioned, who was one of the first people who

939
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 2: was a real role model for me in terms of

940
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,439
Speaker 2: getting into meditation, because here was this guy who's quite

941
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: well known as an atheist writer and who unafraid to

942
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 2: mix it up with and debate with all sorts of people. Yes,

943
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 2: and so you know, I don't always agree with him,

944
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 2: but I find him inspirational and aspirational in that way,

945
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 2: and he's a committed, committed meditator, and so that was

946
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: really helpful to me. And then Jerry Kolonna is a

947
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: quite a well known executive coach who has been referred

948
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 2: to as the Yoda of Silicon Valley. Does a lot

949
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 2: of like CEO whispering, and he has worked with me

950
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: in my career and has really helped me grow up.

951
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 2: He did a very devastating but impactful three sixty review

952
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 2: on me, which resulted in me learning a lot about myself.

953
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: Though that's the sequel. Actually that's the next one.

954
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: Oh the three sixties review. Really interesting. Tell us about

955
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: speaking of books, tell us about some of your favorites

956
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 1: and what you've read recently.

957
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: I really am into novels right now, and I have

958
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 2: been reading a lot of novels as I write my

959
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: next book, because I'm stealing their storytelling techniques and I'm

960
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 2: trying to like up my game as a writer. In

961
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 2: one of the ways I'm doing that is by reading

962
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: the greats. Jennifer Egan is a modern writer. She'd won

963
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 2: a Pulitzer for a book in twenty eleven called A

964
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 2: Visit from the Goon Squad, and then she wrote a

965
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 2: follow up called The Candy House, and I find her

966
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: to be mesmerizing and bewitching.

967
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: Two interesting recommendations. So what sort of advice would you

968
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: give to a recent college grad interested in a career

969
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: in either journalism or broadcast television.

970
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 2: Go for it. You know, it's hard, it's tough, but

971
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 2: it's awesome and I love as I think. I said

972
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 2: this in my first book, that the right that it

973
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 2: confers upon you to walk up to important people and

974
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: ask impudent questions yes, is incredible and if you have curiosity,

975
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 2: this is a playground. And I mean it's a tough business.

976
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: Content creation is hard, and ad supported models are hard.

977
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 2: As we get into subscriptions, that too is hard. It's tough,

978
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 2: and it's competitive, but I do think that if you

979
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 2: can hack that it is worth it.

980
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 1: And our final question, what do you know about the

981
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: world today that you wish you knew thirty or so

982
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 1: years ago when you were a Green Cub reporter.

983
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 2: I heard Scott Galloway, another big business voice, say this

984
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 2: recently to me, actually, and he said it about himself,

985
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 2: But actually it just comes to mind as my big

986
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 2: oversight too. I wish I had been nicer. And you

987
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 2: think about niceness as kind of weakness, but it's actually

988
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 2: a real strength. And we are social animals. We need

989
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: other people we may think, in this culture that's individualistic,

990
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 2: that we're going to be self made, but nobody's self made.

991
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: You're all co created, and we're all co created. And

992
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: if I had taken the time to work on my

993
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 2: relationships in all aspects of my life, my life would

994
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: have been better, way quicker. And even after meditation came

995
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 2: into my life, I was still failing on the relational front.

996
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 2: And that's really what the three sixty taught me, which

997
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: is I needed to up my game, and that like

998
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 2: taking small moments to be nice to people is first

999
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 2: of all, it can have a huge impact on other people,

1000
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 2: but it's good for me. I always go through the

1001
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 2: lens of self interest because I'm naturally frosty and selfish,

1002
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people are if they're

1003
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 2: capable of looking into that.

1004
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to interrupt you. I'm trying to remember what

1005
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,280
Speaker 1: was in the book or something else I had read

1006
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: where you describe, and it might even be a Buddhist

1007
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: precept of there's two types of generosity, the selfish generosity, yes,

1008
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: and generous generosity. And even the generous generosity comes back

1009
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: to you.

1010
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: Yes. The Buddha talks about why selfishness that all I mean. Sorry,

1011
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 2: The dollar Lama talks about this concept of why selfishness,

1012
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 2: that if you want to be really good at being selfish,

1013
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 2: you will be compassionate and generous because that is the

1014
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 2: number one source of happiness. Let me just say this

1015
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 2: finally on a broader note, but it's a related note.

1016
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 2: There are so many bugs in the human design, but

1017
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: there is this feature that is the way out for

1018
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 2: us as a species of our problems. The feature is

1019
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 2: this doing good for other people is to do good

1020
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: for yourself, and that we can ride to personal happiness

1021
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 2: and species wide improvements. It is an incredibly hopeful and

1022
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 2: totally true thing, and I find that to be a

1023
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 2: source of real personal and sort of micro and macro optimism.

1024
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: It's not a coincidence that billionaires also tend to be philanthropists,

1025
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: right works out. Dan, Thank you so much for being

1026
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: so generous with your time. We have been speaking with

1027
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: Dan Harris, author of ten Percent Happier. If you enjoyed

1028
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: this conversation, well be sure and check out any of

1029
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 1: our five hundred previous such discussions that we've held over

1030
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: the past eight and a half years. You can find

1031
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 1: those at YouTube. Spotify, Apple, iTunes, wherever you find your

1032
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: favorite podcasts. Sign up from my daily reading list at

1033
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: ridoults dot com. Follow me on Twitter at Ridolts. Follow

1034
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: the whole fine family of Bloomberg Podcasts at podcast I

1035
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: would be remiss if I did not thank the crack

1036
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: team that helps put these conversations together each week. Sarah

1037
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: Livesey is my audio engineer. Pariswold is my producer. A

1038
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: Teak of al Bron as our project manager. Sean Russo

1039
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: is my re searcher. I'm Barry Ritolts. You've been listening

1040
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 1: to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio