WEBVTT - S14, Ep11 | How and Why Climate Adaptation Measures Get Blocked 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:06.920 Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amie Westervelt. This season, 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:13.160 we are going through the book Climate Obstruction, a Global Assessment. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.960 You know that sounds very dry, but every chapter compiles 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:21.920 all of the peer reviewed research on climate instruction of 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.720 some kind or another. So we have gone through lots 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.960 of examples. We've looked at media and the pr industry, 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:33.080 and the psychology of misinformation and how this works at 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.680 the local level and the global level, and what different 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.920 industries do in particular, and how this shows up even 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.280 in the UNF Triple C and COP and the IPCC 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.400 and all of that. And today we are looking at 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.360 how it shows up around adaptation. So this is really 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.120 interesting to me because actually the bulk of the research 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:58.360 on climate obstruction has really looked at how different industries 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.040 and actors have blocked climate policy that gets at mitigation, 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:08.679 so reducing emissions, getting off of fossil fuels, transitioning away 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:15.080 from the things that generate greenhouse gas emissions. Adaptation refers 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:20.920 to things like building sea walls, or feeding cows, seaweed, 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:23.880 or any number of other things that people are looking 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.560 at as ways that we can deal with the climate 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.000 impacts that are already baked in, so whether it is 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:34.480 moving people out of harm's way or it is building 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.039 adaptations things like that, a lot of people are looking 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:41.959 at how to protect communities from the extreme weather events 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.679 that we know are coming no matter what. And you 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.160 would think that that would be kind of a non 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:52.520 controversial form of climate action, that you know, no matter 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.800 what your disagreements might be about what's causing this problem 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.960 or how to stop it, that shure, you would want 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:07.640 to protect your community from severe weather events, fires, storms, floods, 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.560 what have you. But in fact, no, there is obstruction 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.120 happening at the adaptation level as well. So there is 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:19.200 work that is going against efforts to make communities resilient 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.000 to climate change as well. And today we are looking at. 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.720 Those joining me to do that are Laura cule from 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:31.000 Northeastern University and STACYN. Robinson from Emory University. They're going 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.200 to walk us through what the research said so far 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.320 and why there hasn't really been enough research on this 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:44.760 subject as well. That's coming up after this quick break. 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.800 I'm Laura Coole, and I'm associate professor in the School 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.320 of Public Policy at Urban Affairs and the International Affairs 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.240 Program at Northeastern University. 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:09.840 I'm Staysan Robinson, Associate Professor of Environmental Sciences in the 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:14.639 Department of Environmental Sciences at Emory University, which is in Atlanta. 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:19.680 My research focuses primarily on climate adaptation and small eyelines. 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.079 I have to say, I was like so excited when 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.920 I read your chapter because it was shocking to me. 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:29.720 There's been really way less research on obstruction of climate 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.640 adaptation than climate mitigation. And it's one of those things 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.160 where like I hadn't thought about it until I read that, 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.120 and then I was like, oh my god. Yeah, it's 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:39.960 so obviously out of scale. So I would like to 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.360 start there and have you guys kind of lay that 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.880 out a little bit and also talk about why there's 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.480 less attention paid to the obstruction efforts there. 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.080 Yeah, I mean, just to get us started. This was 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.440 a challenging chapter to write because we were trying to 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:04.040 synthesize literature that really, honestly doesn't yet exist in this framework. 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.920 And so we really see this chapter as kind of 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:12.520 a first effort to explore this topic and hopefully it 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.520 will pave the path forward for more research and exploration 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.919 on obstruction for adaptation. But we were really struck by that. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.720 We thought there was some potential here, but really nobody 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.400 had been talking about it yet, so I wanted to 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:26.080 try it up. 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.839 Yeah, that's a great point, Lauren, but we're happy to 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.039 hear amy that you were surprised that there isn't much 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.880 out there on adaptation obstruction. And when we think of 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.960 climate obstruction, before we got into writing this chapter, we 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:46.279 just imagine ourselves and other people imagining that this is 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:52.000 really probably more focused on reducing d missions or blocking 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:56.040 actions that would reduce DCH missions. So that's what comes 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.320 to mind when people think about climate obstruction. But we're 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.320 happy to to put a focus on adaptation because we 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:08.120 feel that, you know, an emphasis on investigating how communities 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.880 are just the flood in or heat or sea level rise, 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:15.159 that these actions can also be obstructed. So it's good 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:18.000 to have some of that attention on this topic that 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.919 we and our CO office feel is very important. 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:26.000 Yeah, So when we're talking about obstructing climate adaptation, what 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.080 kinds of things are being obstructed and then what are 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:33.240 the different actors that are doing the obstructing. 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.120 So this is I think part of why it's a 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.279 little bit tricky because unlike mitigation where there's kind of 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.800 a clear sort of object for what would be obstructed. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:47.640 We're obstructing reducing fossil fuel emissions, and so who benefits 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:51.520 from that From the existing status quo is pretty obvious, 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:55.520 it's fossil fuel companies and their associated interests. When we 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.800 start to think about adaptation, it becomes much more complex 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:03.200 because there are lots of different actors engaged in adaptation 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.880 and there's lots of different ways that it benefits them. 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.040 So one of the ways that we kind of approached 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:10.960 it in this chapter was to think about who is 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:15.400 benefiting from the status quo, whose sort of existing power 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.040 would be disrupted by adaptation actions, and kind of follow 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:22.839 those threads to think about who might be doing the obstructing. 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:26.920 Yeah, and when we're thinking about it in that way, 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:32.200 it becomes easier to identify, you know, these actors and 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.919 their alliances, etc. So some of the examples that we 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:40.120 give in the chapter include real estate developers who might 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:45.240 oppose zoning or building codes that limit coastal construction from 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.400 a small island. You know, I'm always focused on tourism, 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:50.560 so it was good that some of our co authors 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:55.080 could bring in some tourism examples where tourism operators are 0:06:55.160 --> 0:07:00.200 resisting restrictions to be trund development. But even national governments 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:05.280 oftentimes they are able to sideline adaptation in favor of 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.400 other priorities. But one of the things that we try 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.280 to emphasize is that when this is in defense of 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.840 the lead and their objectives and their priorities, and that's 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:18.280 what we call obstructure. 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.400 Okay, so you talked about obstruction, barriers and resistance in 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.480 the chapter, and I think this is really important, right 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:28.920 because there are some community groups that might be opposed 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.400 to an adaptation measure for some reason or another two 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.160 And like where do we draw the line between an 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:40.560 organized obstruction effort and like a community resistance thing that's 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:42.200 going on. So yeah, I'd love to have you guys 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.040 define those terms and then talk about how you navigate 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.200 these great areas between them. 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.080 Well, I think this is perhaps like one of the 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:57.320 bigger contributions of our chapter, you know, conceptually trying to 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:02.280 detangle these string terms, and believe me, it was challenging 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.080 righting it in this way. But one of the things 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.360 that we want to get across is that the concept 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:13.720 of adaptation barrier is almost well defined in the adaptation literature, 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.520 and when we think of an adaptation barrier, we're thinking 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:23.320 about things like natural, technological, economic, social, or even institutional 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:27.680 impediments to adaptation. So one of the most common examples 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.440 is the lack of funding or limited funding or institutional 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.760 luck in and these are the things that work to 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:39.400 prevent the adjustment to new and expected climate realities. But 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:43.400 one of the key differences with adaptation barriers is that 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.640 they can be overcome. Right, if there's enough political will, 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:50.840 you can do it. But the confusion, as from our perspective, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.680 arises when the term barriers is used as an excuse 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:59.040 to limit action and adaptation, making it sound impossible, which 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.000 is not right. In many cases, it's actually the interests 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:07.000 of powerful actors that make adaptation more challenging. And for 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.960 this reason, we think it's really helpful to draw like 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:14.120 clear distinctions between the barriers that actors are in good 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:18.640 faith working to overcome and resist dunce and obstruction. I 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:20.720 don't know if Laura wants to take it over from there, 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.440 you know, explain and how we're thinking about resist dunce 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:25.040 and obstruction. 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.800 Yeah, so just kind of building on that, we see 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.120 kind of resistance as this broad category of sort of 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.480 pushing back against adaptation action. And one of the things 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.439 that we really struggled with, as you mentioned and kind 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.480 of your introduction to this question, is that sometimes that 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:47.520 can come from grassroots community groups or local organizations, and 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.840 it might be from the very people or communities that 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:55.240 are intended to benefit from adaptation, or it might be 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:58.160 from elite actors or powerful groups that are trying to 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:02.800 block adaptation. And those are pretty fundamentally different reasons for 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.160 resisting adaptation action, and so we really wanted to sort 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.640 of tease that apart, and to do that throughout the chapter. 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:13.000 What we relied on, which was really helpful for our thinking, 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.400 was a framework that we developed along with a number 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.920 of the other co authors of this chapter, for thinking 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:26.440 about justice and power in local adaptation. And so it's 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:31.680 a paper on promises and pitfalls of locally led adaptation 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.960 that's gotten quite a bit of attention in the adaptation space, 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.800 but we also found it really helpful for thinking about 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:42.960 teasing apart this distinction between resistance and obstruction. So, for us, 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:47.120 obstruction is when power flactors are blocking adaptation, and resistance 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:51.120 is when sort of our local groups are perhaps blocking 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.280 or resisting an adaptation strategy that would lead to greater injustices. 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:56.960 Got it. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.480 That's a nice simple way to think of it. Okay, 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.280 So I want to talk about how this shows up 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:02.760 in the IPCC. 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.000 Well, I think for us, you know, laarnet or work 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.199 is multi scale. So even though we focus on adaptation, 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.000 we look at adaptation at the local level, at the 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.440 national level, supernational, and at the global level. So when 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:20.319 we're thinking about ways in which adaptation obstruction might show 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.760 up at the global level, the two first cases that 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.360 came to mind where the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel and 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:30.480 Climate Change and the Unit Triple C the United Nations 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.959 Framework Convention on Climate Change. So perhaps a little bit 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:39.400 of background on the IPCC. It's that un organization that's 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.719 really responsible for synthesizing the state of climate science, right. 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:48.120 So it came about from you know, basically a project 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:52.199 of the United Nations Environment Program and the World Lotroological Organization, 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.040 and every five to seven years they put out like 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:57.680 a big climate assessment, like here's what we need to 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.400 know about the status of climate science. But one of 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.719 the things that I think many people don't realize is 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.320 that the eye in the IPCC does a lot of 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:08.000 heavy lifting. 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:08.240 Right. 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.760 It's the inter governmental body, right, not just an international body, 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.120 which means that it's actually the countries that are the 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.920 member states and the IPCC. And then you can think 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:23.240 about just the very interests across various countries and how 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.200 they can come together to really acknowledge, you know, the 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.400 state of climate science. So when we were looking at 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:35.280 the IPCC, we were thinking, essentially whole obstruction shows up 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.480 for adaptation is a sidelining of knowledge in one of 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:41.040 the ways is one of the ways where you know, 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:45.280 powerful actors, and here we're thinking about countries primarily control 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:49.240 action and adaptation. So as a pre eminent authority on 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.719 climate science, we feel that this matters. But one of 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:55.680 the things that we tried to do in the chapter 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.480 was to look back at the previous assessment reports. Right now, 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.160 the seventh assessment cycle just got started last year, so 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.120 we've had six of these assessment reports. And one of 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.600 the things that we notice is that, well, there isn't 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:15.480 much dedicated focus on adaptation, right, And here we're thinking 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:20.320 about dedicated chapters as there are for mitigation, and there's 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:24.680 a whole working group on mitigation right, And within Working 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.800 Group two, yes there's a focus on adaptation, but this 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.560 has to be balanced with other folk I right, so 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:36.800 impacts on vulnerability as well. So you have instances where 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:42.960 member states block adaptation related findings because the assessment reports 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.960 must go through line by line government approval, and I 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.400 think that's one thing that's not really immediately obvious. And 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:54.040 another way that this shows up is just the composition 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.200 of authors, because over the years we've seen where a 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.679 majority of the authors are from global North countries, and 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.079 you know, many global North countries are not grappling with 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:09.439 some of the impacts that global stealth countries are grappling with, 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.720 so it's just not reflected in the assessment report. So 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.199 those were I think the three things that we kind 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:16.720 of grappled with in the platform. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:18.520 One of the things I thought was interesting in the 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.000 most recent report, and you mentioned this in the chapter two, 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:25.840 was the discussion of maladaptive things too. But I guess 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.560 it's again to your point, It's true that I don't 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:33.240 feel like I see as much about effective adaptation as 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:39.440 I do about maladaptives in the report, which is like 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:41.960 kind of an obstructive thing in its own way. I 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:43.120 don't know, it's interesting. 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.040 Yeah, I mean, we don't cover this in a lot 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.440 of depth, but there's been some really interesting work coming 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:53.680 out recently thinking about actually how critical adaptation scholarship is 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:58.400 perhaps acting almost as obstruction of adaptation action, or that 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:02.520 could be an intervertent outcome er. It's particularly concerns that 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:06.200 kind of these acknowledgments of the ways that adaptation hasn't 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:11.960 always been successful might be blocking particularly flows of adaptation finance. 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.920 And so I think it's kind of a critical moment 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:19.040 for adaptation scholarship to be sort of reflecting, especially when 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.760 we're in this sort of critical moment for climate finance 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.000 in general and development finance where there's I think a 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.720 lot of soul searching of kind of how best to 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:35.160 move forward given kind of the pullback of donors, And 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:40.760 is some of that scholarship actually contributing to those narratives 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.920 around the lack of effectiveness of that funding. 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.240 It makes me wonder too, because we're working on this 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.280 other project where we're doing a big, like a long 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.080 investigation into research funding and like how it tilts the 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:58.520 scales in different directions, right, and like there's so much 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.720 in the research realm around technological adaptation like you know, 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:08.720 carbon capture, geoengineering, all that stuff, and then somewhat on 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.840 the problems with those things do, but there's not a 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.680 lot on like community adaptation efforts and what's working, what 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:18.400 is in and all of that stuff. 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:20.560 Yeah, And I mean, I think part of that comes 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:24.040 back to one of these fundamental power imbalances that we 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.640 talk about throughout the chapter, of the difference between kind 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.600 of the priorities of the global north on mitigation and 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:36.120 the fact that adaptation, while obviously issues that affect everywhere 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.680 in the world, does affect the most vulnerable the most 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.080 and so we see that playing out in terms of policy, 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:48.120 but also in terms of scholarship and funding for where 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:49.800 the emphasis has been You. 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.520 Mentioned the UNF Triple C, and you know, we have 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.880 got another COP coming up, so I'm curious to have 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.040 you guys talk about how it shows up there too, 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:01.560 and especially how it might differ from maybe how it 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:02.720 shows up in the IPCC. 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:05.560 I mean, I think in our analysis these two are 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:09.240 pretty tightly connected, the ways it shows up in the 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:13.000 IPCC and the UNF Triple C, especially because of the 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.159 ways that the findings from the IPCC feed into the 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.800 UNF Triple C process. But it's pretty obvious if you 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:23.960 look at the history of the UNF Triple C how 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:28.080 sidelined adaptation has really been and when we think about 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:30.840 what that means in terms of obstruction, if it's not 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:36.720 on the radar for action, then it's effectively being left 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:41.399 off the agenda. And so the Kyoto Protocol mentioned adaptation 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:46.800 but really didn't have any concrete actions associated with that. 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:51.200 It was very much a mitigation focused agreement, and we've 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:55.359 seen that shifting over time. There's certainly more attention. The 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:59.600 Paris Agreement sort of made statements that these should be 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:04.400 equal priorities, mitigation and adaptation, but sort of current negotiations 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.440 are still trying to figure out exactly how we're measuring 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:11.159 a global goal on adaptation, and so we're still kind 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.720 of grappling with some pretty basic questions at the international 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.000 level of how we're prioritizing adaptation. 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.359 Well, just to add to that, it may find me 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.199 like one of the metrics that we use is how 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.960 much space is it taken up? How much space is 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.760 it allowed. So that's why within the context of the IPCC, 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.560 we can look back at the Assessment report, how many chapters. 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.920 Is adaptation a focus of right and the same thing 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.920 for the multilateral agreements that come out of the unetriple 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:46.840 C Right. As Laura mentioned, within the original Framework Agreement, 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.280 there are only you know, a few references to adaptation, 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:54.080 and in fact, the article that outligns the objective of 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.640 the convention clearly states that it's for the purpose of 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.720 stabilizing GHG emissions. 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:00.000 Right. 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.560 So this is like a sharp shift to the Paris 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:08.600 Agreement where adaptation has its own article. Right, So there's 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.639 dedicated attention. I mean, as adaptation scholars would love to 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:16.640 see more attention, but we have to recognize that we've 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.280 gone from a situation where we had like a few 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:25.320 scattered references to a dedicated article on adaptation. So we're 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:29.240 willing to acknowledge that there's progress, right because it's now 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.000 taken up more space, But we'd like it to take 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.080 up more space just because of how critical the issues 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.800 are for you know, countries, especially those in the global self. 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:43.160 That's a great point and interesting to keep an eye on. Okay, 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.159 so we kind of touched on this talking about funding 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.840 of research, but you get into a broader conversation about 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:54.679 how donors obstruct and otherwise influence adaptation approaches, And I'd 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:56.720 like to have you guys unpack that a little bit. 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:58.680 Who are these donors? What are they doing? 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.840 Yeah, so, I mean our focus on donors is really 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.480 driven by kind of this overarching framework of thinking about 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.840 who are the powerful actors that have an interest in 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.199 shaping adaptation and therefore, if they're powerful, what might they 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.320 be doing to obstruct And donors are a really interesting 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.040 example that we explore in the chapter because they're very 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.960 clearly powerful in the context of kind of adaptation. They're 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:28.320 providing the funding and the resources to implement adaptation actions, 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.919 and so it makes sense to look at how they 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.199 might be shaping the agenda and what they might be 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.800 supporting or not supporting. It's also a really interesting example 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.600 because it really shows how complex this issue of obstruction 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:44.880 is in the context of adaptation. These are actors who 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:49.920 are supporting adaptation, they're funding it, and yet we still 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.760 can see the ways that the power that they have 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:58.040 is shaping what types of adaptation receives support, whose adaptation 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:02.239 gets supported, who's getting ignored or left off, And so 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:06.440 we're really thinking about kind of not just adaptation as 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:10.119 a whole, but the specific ways that adaptation gets implemented 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.960 on the ground when we're thinking about obstruction in this context. 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:16.760 Well, if I could just add quickly and this this 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.120 is the point that Laura raised earlier, but I think 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:24.359 it's worth like emphasizing. It's also about the volume of flows. Right, 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:29.760 So adaptation currently accounts for ten, maybe depending on the source, 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:33.200 of the twenty percent of all climate finance flows. Right, 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:38.080 that's a really small percentage of a pie that's already small, 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.280 you know, for all intents and purposes. So one of 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.600 the ways that the international community can signal their support 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.440 for adaptation is increasing the flows the adaptation. And Laura 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.879 has some really great work on the Green Climate Fund. 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.680 I don't know she wants to just mention that in passing, 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:56.439 because we weren't able to get into a lot of 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.320 the you know, nitte gritted details in the chapters, but 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.320 we do have some great evidence and I think that 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:06.320 could help answer your question about who are these donors anyway, 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.320 And you know, one of the donors that we focus on, 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:12.480 I mean, donors do pass money through the dcs, so 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:15.199 technically we're not thinking about it as a donor, but 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:19.119 you know, just the facilitator of adaptation flows. 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:22.360 Yeah, I mean, we're really interested in the ways that 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.119 these kind of power dynamics are shaping who's who gets 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:32.320 to make decisions about adaptation, and so we see that 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.879 that often can be sort of UN Climate funds, which, 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:39.080 as Stace was just mentioning, the Green Climate Fund is 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:43.040 the largest of the funds under the UN Framework Convention 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:46.880 on Climate Change. But we're also thinking about sort of 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:51.520 bilateral donors. Until very recently, USAID as a major player 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:55.800 in kind of an adaptation space, and perhaps in some 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.119 ways some of the ways that those power dynamics and 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:01.760 obstruction play out are most with bilateral donors, because we're 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.600 very attuned to the fact that those are political relationships 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:09.680 between donors and recipient countries, and that there's a lot 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.399 of interests of donors that are shaping the types of 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.120 investments that they're willing to make and what they might 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:19.879 not be willing to support. But what some of the 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:24.200 research that I've done and done with colleagues, many of 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:26.920 whom are authors on this chapter, is really also thinking 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:32.600 about even in these kind of seemingly neutral spaces like 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:36.879 the Green Climate Fund, where it's a technocratic process of 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:42.840 writing proposals, and that the investment criteria and the narratives 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:46.280 that are acceptable in these international frameworks play a really 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:49.960 important role in shaping what kinds of adaptation is acceptable. 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:53.159 And therefore, what we're arguing here is that that obstructs 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:56.919 other types of adaptation that might not fit the logic 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:03.960 of these funders. Even though it's still funding adaptation, there 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:05.720 are still things that are being left out. 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:09.600 Yeah, that makes sense. And again it's like that whole 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:15.960 systemic global North domination all the way down that's really 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:20.280 keeping stuff out. Interesting. All right, So you talk about 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:24.119 these three types of obstruction, I want to kind of 0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:26.240 like go through each of them and have you explain 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:28.879 what they are and maybe give an example. So the 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:32.760 first one you talk about is obstruction through decision making 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:36.479 or what you describe as direct conflict. So what is 0:24:36.560 --> 0:24:39.439 this type of obstruction and how does it kind of 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:39.960 show up? 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:43.920 Thanks for the question, Amy, you know, just to emphasize 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:48.359 again that you know, this typology of adaptation obstruction that 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:50.960 we're able to develop was really based on that earlier 0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:55.720 article that we wrote upbout locally led adaptation. So one 0:24:55.720 --> 0:24:58.920 of the types of obstruction that we're able to identify 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:02.600