1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amie Westervelt. This season, 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: we are going through the book Climate Obstruction, a Global Assessment. 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: You know that sounds very dry, but every chapter compiles 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: all of the peer reviewed research on climate instruction of 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: some kind or another. So we have gone through lots 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: of examples. We've looked at media and the pr industry, 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: and the psychology of misinformation and how this works at 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: the local level and the global level, and what different 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: industries do in particular, and how this shows up even 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: in the UNF Triple C and COP and the IPCC 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: and all of that. And today we are looking at 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: how it shows up around adaptation. So this is really 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: interesting to me because actually the bulk of the research 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: on climate obstruction has really looked at how different industries 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: and actors have blocked climate policy that gets at mitigation, 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: so reducing emissions, getting off of fossil fuels, transitioning away 17 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: from the things that generate greenhouse gas emissions. Adaptation refers 18 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: to things like building sea walls, or feeding cows, seaweed, 19 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: or any number of other things that people are looking 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: at as ways that we can deal with the climate 21 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: impacts that are already baked in, so whether it is 22 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: moving people out of harm's way or it is building 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: adaptations things like that, a lot of people are looking 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: at how to protect communities from the extreme weather events 25 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: that we know are coming no matter what. And you 26 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: would think that that would be kind of a non 27 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: controversial form of climate action, that you know, no matter 28 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: what your disagreements might be about what's causing this problem 29 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: or how to stop it, that shure, you would want 30 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: to protect your community from severe weather events, fires, storms, floods, 31 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: what have you. But in fact, no, there is obstruction 32 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: happening at the adaptation level as well. So there is 33 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: work that is going against efforts to make communities resilient 34 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: to climate change as well. And today we are looking at. 35 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: Those joining me to do that are Laura cule from 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: Northeastern University and STACYN. Robinson from Emory University. They're going 37 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: to walk us through what the research said so far 38 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: and why there hasn't really been enough research on this 39 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: subject as well. That's coming up after this quick break. 40 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Coole, and I'm associate professor in the School 41 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: of Public Policy at Urban Affairs and the International Affairs 42 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: Program at Northeastern University. 43 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: I'm Staysan Robinson, Associate Professor of Environmental Sciences in the 44 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 3: Department of Environmental Sciences at Emory University, which is in Atlanta. 45 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 3: My research focuses primarily on climate adaptation and small eyelines. 46 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: I have to say, I was like so excited when 47 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: I read your chapter because it was shocking to me. 48 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: There's been really way less research on obstruction of climate 49 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: adaptation than climate mitigation. And it's one of those things 50 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: where like I hadn't thought about it until I read that, 51 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: and then I was like, oh my god. Yeah, it's 52 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: so obviously out of scale. So I would like to 53 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: start there and have you guys kind of lay that 54 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: out a little bit and also talk about why there's 55 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: less attention paid to the obstruction efforts there. 56 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just to get us started. This was 57 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: a challenging chapter to write because we were trying to 58 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: synthesize literature that really, honestly doesn't yet exist in this framework. 59 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: And so we really see this chapter as kind of 60 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: a first effort to explore this topic and hopefully it 61 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: will pave the path forward for more research and exploration 62 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 2: on obstruction for adaptation. But we were really struck by that. 63 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 2: We thought there was some potential here, but really nobody 64 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: had been talking about it yet, so I wanted to 65 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: try it up. 66 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point, Lauren, but we're happy to 67 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 3: hear amy that you were surprised that there isn't much 68 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 3: out there on adaptation obstruction. And when we think of 69 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: climate obstruction, before we got into writing this chapter, we 70 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 3: just imagine ourselves and other people imagining that this is 71 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 3: really probably more focused on reducing d missions or blocking 72 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 3: actions that would reduce DCH missions. So that's what comes 73 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: to mind when people think about climate obstruction. But we're 74 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 3: happy to to put a focus on adaptation because we 75 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 3: feel that, you know, an emphasis on investigating how communities 76 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 3: are just the flood in or heat or sea level rise, 77 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 3: that these actions can also be obstructed. So it's good 78 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: to have some of that attention on this topic that 79 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 3: we and our CO office feel is very important. 80 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So when we're talking about obstructing climate adaptation, what 81 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: kinds of things are being obstructed and then what are 82 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: the different actors that are doing the obstructing. 83 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: So this is I think part of why it's a 84 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 2: little bit tricky because unlike mitigation where there's kind of 85 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: a clear sort of object for what would be obstructed. 86 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: We're obstructing reducing fossil fuel emissions, and so who benefits 87 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: from that From the existing status quo is pretty obvious, 88 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: it's fossil fuel companies and their associated interests. When we 89 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: start to think about adaptation, it becomes much more complex 90 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: because there are lots of different actors engaged in adaptation 91 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: and there's lots of different ways that it benefits them. 92 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: So one of the ways that we kind of approached 93 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: it in this chapter was to think about who is 94 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: benefiting from the status quo, whose sort of existing power 95 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: would be disrupted by adaptation actions, and kind of follow 96 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: those threads to think about who might be doing the obstructing. 97 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and when we're thinking about it in that way, 98 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 3: it becomes easier to identify, you know, these actors and 99 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 3: their alliances, etc. So some of the examples that we 100 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 3: give in the chapter include real estate developers who might 101 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 3: oppose zoning or building codes that limit coastal construction from 102 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 3: a small island. You know, I'm always focused on tourism, 103 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 3: so it was good that some of our co authors 104 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 3: could bring in some tourism examples where tourism operators are 105 00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 3: resisting restrictions to be trund development. But even national governments 106 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 3: oftentimes they are able to sideline adaptation in favor of 107 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 3: other priorities. But one of the things that we try 108 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 3: to emphasize is that when this is in defense of 109 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 3: the lead and their objectives and their priorities, and that's 110 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 3: what we call obstructure. 111 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: Okay, so you talked about obstruction, barriers and resistance in 112 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: the chapter, and I think this is really important, right 113 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: because there are some community groups that might be opposed 114 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: to an adaptation measure for some reason or another two 115 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: And like where do we draw the line between an 116 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: organized obstruction effort and like a community resistance thing that's 117 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: going on. So yeah, I'd love to have you guys 118 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: define those terms and then talk about how you navigate 119 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: these great areas between them. 120 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: Well, I think this is perhaps like one of the 121 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 3: bigger contributions of our chapter, you know, conceptually trying to 122 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 3: detangle these string terms, and believe me, it was challenging 123 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 3: righting it in this way. But one of the things 124 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 3: that we want to get across is that the concept 125 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 3: of adaptation barrier is almost well defined in the adaptation literature, 126 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 3: and when we think of an adaptation barrier, we're thinking 127 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 3: about things like natural, technological, economic, social, or even institutional 128 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 3: impediments to adaptation. So one of the most common examples 129 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 3: is the lack of funding or limited funding or institutional 130 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: luck in and these are the things that work to 131 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 3: prevent the adjustment to new and expected climate realities. But 132 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 3: one of the key differences with adaptation barriers is that 133 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 3: they can be overcome. Right, if there's enough political will, 134 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 3: you can do it. But the confusion, as from our perspective, 135 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 3: arises when the term barriers is used as an excuse 136 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 3: to limit action and adaptation, making it sound impossible, which 137 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 3: is not right. In many cases, it's actually the interests 138 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 3: of powerful actors that make adaptation more challenging. And for 139 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 3: this reason, we think it's really helpful to draw like 140 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 3: clear distinctions between the barriers that actors are in good 141 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 3: faith working to overcome and resist dunce and obstruction. I 142 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 3: don't know if Laura wants to take it over from there, 143 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 3: you know, explain and how we're thinking about resist dunce 144 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: and obstruction. 145 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so just kind of building on that, we see 146 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: kind of resistance as this broad category of sort of 147 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: pushing back against adaptation action. And one of the things 148 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 2: that we really struggled with, as you mentioned and kind 149 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: of your introduction to this question, is that sometimes that 150 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: can come from grassroots community groups or local organizations, and 151 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: it might be from the very people or communities that 152 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: are intended to benefit from adaptation, or it might be 153 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: from elite actors or powerful groups that are trying to 154 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: block adaptation. And those are pretty fundamentally different reasons for 155 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 2: resisting adaptation action, and so we really wanted to sort 156 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: of tease that apart, and to do that throughout the chapter. 157 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 2: What we relied on, which was really helpful for our thinking, 158 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: was a framework that we developed along with a number 159 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: of the other co authors of this chapter, for thinking 160 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: about justice and power in local adaptation. And so it's 161 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: a paper on promises and pitfalls of locally led adaptation 162 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: that's gotten quite a bit of attention in the adaptation space, 163 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: but we also found it really helpful for thinking about 164 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: teasing apart this distinction between resistance and obstruction. So, for us, 165 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: obstruction is when power flactors are blocking adaptation, and resistance 166 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: is when sort of our local groups are perhaps blocking 167 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 2: or resisting an adaptation strategy that would lead to greater injustices. 168 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: Got it. 169 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: That's a nice simple way to think of it. Okay, 170 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: So I want to talk about how this shows up 171 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: in the IPCC. 172 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 3: Well, I think for us, you know, laarnet or work 173 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 3: is multi scale. So even though we focus on adaptation, 174 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 3: we look at adaptation at the local level, at the 175 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 3: national level, supernational, and at the global level. So when 176 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 3: we're thinking about ways in which adaptation obstruction might show 177 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 3: up at the global level, the two first cases that 178 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 3: came to mind where the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel and 179 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: Climate Change and the Unit Triple C the United Nations 180 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 3: Framework Convention on Climate Change. So perhaps a little bit 181 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: of background on the IPCC. It's that un organization that's 182 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 3: really responsible for synthesizing the state of climate science, right. 183 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 3: So it came about from you know, basically a project 184 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 3: of the United Nations Environment Program and the World Lotroological Organization, 185 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 3: and every five to seven years they put out like 186 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 3: a big climate assessment, like here's what we need to 187 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 3: know about the status of climate science. But one of 188 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 3: the things that I think many people don't realize is 189 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 3: that the eye in the IPCC does a lot of 190 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 3: heavy lifting. 191 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: Right. 192 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 3: It's the inter governmental body, right, not just an international body, 193 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 3: which means that it's actually the countries that are the 194 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: member states and the IPCC. And then you can think 195 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: about just the very interests across various countries and how 196 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 3: they can come together to really acknowledge, you know, the 197 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 3: state of climate science. So when we were looking at 198 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: the IPCC, we were thinking, essentially whole obstruction shows up 199 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: for adaptation is a sidelining of knowledge in one of 200 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 3: the ways is one of the ways where you know, 201 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 3: powerful actors, and here we're thinking about countries primarily control 202 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: action and adaptation. So as a pre eminent authority on 203 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 3: climate science, we feel that this matters. But one of 204 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 3: the things that we tried to do in the chapter 205 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: was to look back at the previous assessment reports. Right now, 206 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 3: the seventh assessment cycle just got started last year, so 207 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: we've had six of these assessment reports. And one of 208 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: the things that we notice is that, well, there isn't 209 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 3: much dedicated focus on adaptation, right, And here we're thinking 210 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 3: about dedicated chapters as there are for mitigation, and there's 211 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 3: a whole working group on mitigation right, And within Working 212 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 3: Group two, yes there's a focus on adaptation, but this 213 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 3: has to be balanced with other folk I right, so 214 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 3: impacts on vulnerability as well. So you have instances where 215 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 3: member states block adaptation related findings because the assessment reports 216 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 3: must go through line by line government approval, and I 217 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 3: think that's one thing that's not really immediately obvious. And 218 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 3: another way that this shows up is just the composition 219 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 3: of authors, because over the years we've seen where a 220 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 3: majority of the authors are from global North countries, and 221 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 3: you know, many global North countries are not grappling with 222 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 3: some of the impacts that global stealth countries are grappling with, 223 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 3: so it's just not reflected in the assessment report. So 224 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 3: those were I think the three things that we kind 225 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 3: of grappled with in the platform. 226 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: One of the things I thought was interesting in the 227 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: most recent report, and you mentioned this in the chapter two, 228 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: was the discussion of maladaptive things too. But I guess 229 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: it's again to your point, It's true that I don't 230 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: feel like I see as much about effective adaptation as 231 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: I do about maladaptives in the report, which is like 232 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: kind of an obstructive thing in its own way. I 233 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: don't know, it's interesting. 234 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we don't cover this in a lot 235 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: of depth, but there's been some really interesting work coming 236 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: out recently thinking about actually how critical adaptation scholarship is 237 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: perhaps acting almost as obstruction of adaptation action, or that 238 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: could be an intervertent outcome er. It's particularly concerns that 239 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 2: kind of these acknowledgments of the ways that adaptation hasn't 240 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: always been successful might be blocking particularly flows of adaptation finance. 241 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: And so I think it's kind of a critical moment 242 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: for adaptation scholarship to be sort of reflecting, especially when 243 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: we're in this sort of critical moment for climate finance 244 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: in general and development finance where there's I think a 245 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: lot of soul searching of kind of how best to 246 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: move forward given kind of the pullback of donors, And 247 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: is some of that scholarship actually contributing to those narratives 248 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: around the lack of effectiveness of that funding. 249 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: It makes me wonder too, because we're working on this 250 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: other project where we're doing a big, like a long 251 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: investigation into research funding and like how it tilts the 252 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: scales in different directions, right, and like there's so much 253 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: in the research realm around technological adaptation like you know, 254 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: carbon capture, geoengineering, all that stuff, and then somewhat on 255 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: the problems with those things do, but there's not a 256 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: lot on like community adaptation efforts and what's working, what 257 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: is in and all of that stuff. 258 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, I think part of that comes 259 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: back to one of these fundamental power imbalances that we 260 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: talk about throughout the chapter, of the difference between kind 261 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: of the priorities of the global north on mitigation and 262 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: the fact that adaptation, while obviously issues that affect everywhere 263 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: in the world, does affect the most vulnerable the most 264 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: and so we see that playing out in terms of policy, 265 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: but also in terms of scholarship and funding for where 266 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: the emphasis has been You. 267 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: Mentioned the UNF Triple C, and you know, we have 268 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: got another COP coming up, so I'm curious to have 269 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: you guys talk about how it shows up there too, 270 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: and especially how it might differ from maybe how it 271 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: shows up in the IPCC. 272 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I think in our analysis these two are 273 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: pretty tightly connected, the ways it shows up in the 274 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: IPCC and the UNF Triple C, especially because of the 275 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 2: ways that the findings from the IPCC feed into the 276 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: UNF Triple C process. But it's pretty obvious if you 277 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: look at the history of the UNF Triple C how 278 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: sidelined adaptation has really been and when we think about 279 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: what that means in terms of obstruction, if it's not 280 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: on the radar for action, then it's effectively being left 281 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 2: off the agenda. And so the Kyoto Protocol mentioned adaptation 282 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: but really didn't have any concrete actions associated with that. 283 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 2: It was very much a mitigation focused agreement, and we've 284 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: seen that shifting over time. There's certainly more attention. The 285 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: Paris Agreement sort of made statements that these should be 286 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 2: equal priorities, mitigation and adaptation, but sort of current negotiations 287 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 2: are still trying to figure out exactly how we're measuring 288 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 2: a global goal on adaptation, and so we're still kind 289 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 2: of grappling with some pretty basic questions at the international 290 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: level of how we're prioritizing adaptation. 291 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 3: Well, just to add to that, it may find me 292 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 3: like one of the metrics that we use is how 293 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 3: much space is it taken up? How much space is 294 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: it allowed. So that's why within the context of the IPCC, 295 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 3: we can look back at the Assessment report, how many chapters. 296 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: Is adaptation a focus of right and the same thing 297 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 3: for the multilateral agreements that come out of the unetriple 298 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: C Right. As Laura mentioned, within the original Framework Agreement, 299 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 3: there are only you know, a few references to adaptation, 300 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 3: and in fact, the article that outligns the objective of 301 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 3: the convention clearly states that it's for the purpose of 302 00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 3: stabilizing GHG emissions. 303 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: Right. 304 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 3: So this is like a sharp shift to the Paris 305 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: Agreement where adaptation has its own article. Right, So there's 306 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 3: dedicated attention. I mean, as adaptation scholars would love to 307 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 3: see more attention, but we have to recognize that we've 308 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 3: gone from a situation where we had like a few 309 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 3: scattered references to a dedicated article on adaptation. So we're 310 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 3: willing to acknowledge that there's progress, right because it's now 311 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 3: taken up more space, But we'd like it to take 312 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 3: up more space just because of how critical the issues 313 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 3: are for you know, countries, especially those in the global self. 314 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: That's a great point and interesting to keep an eye on. Okay, 315 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: so we kind of touched on this talking about funding 316 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: of research, but you get into a broader conversation about 317 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: how donors obstruct and otherwise influence adaptation approaches, And I'd 318 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: like to have you guys unpack that a little bit. 319 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: Who are these donors? What are they doing? 320 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean our focus on donors is really 321 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: driven by kind of this overarching framework of thinking about 322 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: who are the powerful actors that have an interest in 323 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 2: shaping adaptation and therefore, if they're powerful, what might they 324 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: be doing to obstruct And donors are a really interesting 325 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: example that we explore in the chapter because they're very 326 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 2: clearly powerful in the context of kind of adaptation. They're 327 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: providing the funding and the resources to implement adaptation actions, 328 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 2: and so it makes sense to look at how they 329 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 2: might be shaping the agenda and what they might be 330 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: supporting or not supporting. It's also a really interesting example 331 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: because it really shows how complex this issue of obstruction 332 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 2: is in the context of adaptation. These are actors who 333 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 2: are supporting adaptation, they're funding it, and yet we still 334 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 2: can see the ways that the power that they have 335 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: is shaping what types of adaptation receives support, whose adaptation 336 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,239 Speaker 2: gets supported, who's getting ignored or left off, And so 337 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: we're really thinking about kind of not just adaptation as 338 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 2: a whole, but the specific ways that adaptation gets implemented 339 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: on the ground when we're thinking about obstruction in this context. 340 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: Well, if I could just add quickly and this this 341 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 3: is the point that Laura raised earlier, but I think 342 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 3: it's worth like emphasizing. It's also about the volume of flows. Right, 343 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 3: So adaptation currently accounts for ten, maybe depending on the source, 344 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 3: of the twenty percent of all climate finance flows. Right, 345 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 3: that's a really small percentage of a pie that's already small, 346 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 3: you know, for all intents and purposes. So one of 347 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 3: the ways that the international community can signal their support 348 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 3: for adaptation is increasing the flows the adaptation. And Laura 349 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 3: has some really great work on the Green Climate Fund. 350 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 3: I don't know she wants to just mention that in passing, 351 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 3: because we weren't able to get into a lot of 352 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 3: the you know, nitte gritted details in the chapters, but 353 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 3: we do have some great evidence and I think that 354 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 3: could help answer your question about who are these donors anyway, 355 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: And you know, one of the donors that we focus on, 356 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 3: I mean, donors do pass money through the dcs, so 357 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 3: technically we're not thinking about it as a donor, but 358 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 3: you know, just the facilitator of adaptation flows. 359 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we're really interested in the ways that 360 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 2: these kind of power dynamics are shaping who's who gets 361 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 2: to make decisions about adaptation, and so we see that 362 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 2: that often can be sort of UN Climate funds, which, 363 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 2: as Stace was just mentioning, the Green Climate Fund is 364 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: the largest of the funds under the UN Framework Convention 365 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 2: on Climate Change. But we're also thinking about sort of 366 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 2: bilateral donors. Until very recently, USAID as a major player 367 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: in kind of an adaptation space, and perhaps in some 368 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 2: ways some of the ways that those power dynamics and 369 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: obstruction play out are most with bilateral donors, because we're 370 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 2: very attuned to the fact that those are political relationships 371 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: between donors and recipient countries, and that there's a lot 372 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 2: of interests of donors that are shaping the types of 373 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 2: investments that they're willing to make and what they might 374 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 2: not be willing to support. But what some of the 375 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 2: research that I've done and done with colleagues, many of 376 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: whom are authors on this chapter, is really also thinking 377 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: about even in these kind of seemingly neutral spaces like 378 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 2: the Green Climate Fund, where it's a technocratic process of 379 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: writing proposals, and that the investment criteria and the narratives 380 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: that are acceptable in these international frameworks play a really 381 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: important role in shaping what kinds of adaptation is acceptable. 382 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 2: And therefore, what we're arguing here is that that obstructs 383 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 2: other types of adaptation that might not fit the logic 384 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: of these funders. Even though it's still funding adaptation, there 385 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 2: are still things that are being left out. 386 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. And again it's like that whole 387 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: systemic global North domination all the way down that's really 388 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: keeping stuff out. Interesting. All right, So you talk about 389 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: these three types of obstruction, I want to kind of 390 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: like go through each of them and have you explain 391 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: what they are and maybe give an example. So the 392 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: first one you talk about is obstruction through decision making 393 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,479 Speaker 1: or what you describe as direct conflict. So what is 394 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: this type of obstruction and how does it kind of 395 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: show up? 396 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 3: Thanks for the question, Amy, you know, just to emphasize 397 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 3: again that you know, this typology of adaptation obstruction that 398 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 3: we're able to develop was really based on that earlier 399 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 3: article that we wrote upbout locally led adaptation. So one 400 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 3: of the types of obstruction that we're able to identify 401 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 3: was the obstruction through decision making or direct conflict, right, 402 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 3: And you know, since we've been in this conversation, you've 403 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 3: heard us use the word power and powerful, you know, 404 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 3: very often. And this is like a defining feature of 405 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 3: adaptation obstruction because within this context, sometimes powerful actors actively 406 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 3: work to obstruct adaptation strategy. So you know, this can 407 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 3: happen via exploitation or exclusion or dehumanization. And when this happens, 408 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 3: you know, marginalized groups lose options as the adaptation intervention 409 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 3: is designed for elites and not for the most vulnerable countries. 410 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 3: So that's what we you know, mean when we say, 411 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 3: you know, obstruction through decision making or direct conflict. And 412 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 3: within the chapter we give some examples. We have a 413 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 3: great example from Fiji where you know Manager Tree, it 414 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 3: has displaced marginalized groups and sometimes it's in favor of 415 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 3: elite investment interest. We also have a great example from 416 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 3: the Mohawk community in Canada where there were instances where 417 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 3: it was difficult for them to relocate despite flooding because 418 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 3: they lack legal land rights. So we see this constant, 419 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 3: you know, dispossession of the most vulnerable people in our 420 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: two examples. We have, you know, coastal communities in Fiji, 421 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 3: and we have indigenous communities in Canada. 422 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: Super interesting, Okay, So let's talk about the next one, 423 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: obstruction through non decision making. So agenda setting. How does 424 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: this happen? How does it show up? 425 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we argue, and we've kind of talked about 426 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 2: agenda setting throughout this conversation, but we're really arguing that 427 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 2: even when this obstruction isn't as direct as in the 428 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: previous examples, prioritizing the needs of some actors over the 429 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: interests of others acts to obstruct certain types of adaptation. 430 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: So the conversation around donor priorities would be part of 431 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 2: that agenda setting type of obstruction. But when a couple 432 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: other examples that we talk about in a chapter include 433 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 2: the ways that urban elites might prioritize city adaptation while 434 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: sidelining rural communities and pushing for migration to urban settings 435 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: instead of thinking about adaptation directly in those rural contexts. 436 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 2: So again it's not so much of a direct kind 437 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: of limiting adaptation for in a specific context, but by 438 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 2: choosing to prioritize something else, it leaves adaptation off the 439 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 2: agenda in that ural context. Similarly, going back to the 440 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 2: small island contexts that Stacey was talking about and the 441 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 2: last examples, we also see the ways that patroon client 442 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: politics mean that adaptation decisions often reflect really really interest 443 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 2: instead of vulnerable population needs. And so this sometimes shows 444 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: up a direct conflict, but sometimes it's a lot more subtle, 445 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: just in terms of whose priorities are pushed to the 446 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 2: top of the agenda. 447 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: Would you put the sort of emphasis on market friendlier 448 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: market based solutions as an example of that type of 449 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, like framing of adaptation. 450 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't actually get into there's not a lot 451 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: of examples of market approaches to adaptation in our chapter, 452 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: but one that we do talk about is around sort 453 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 2: of water policy and the ways that sort of pricing 454 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: mechanisms for water policy can shift sort of vulnerabilities. And 455 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: while overall it might be addressing concerns about water efficiency 456 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 2: and increasing drought conditions, it's also an approach that perhaps 457 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: doesn't pay attention to who's going to bear the costs 458 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 2: and the burdens of that adaptation strategy, and so it 459 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: can actually end up causing more harm and obstructing justice. 460 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 2: For some actors. 461 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: It makes me think of the abundance thing that we're 462 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: seeing right now, this idea of like framing adapting to 463 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: climate change as I don't know, like as a market 464 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: opportunity and a job creator and this and that and whatever, 465 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: and this like framing of you know, if it's not 466 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: something that does that, then it's bad. So I'm curious 467 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: what you guys think about that. This is like a 468 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: whole I don't know. Maybe you're not as online as 469 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: I am, but I feel like I'm constantly being fed 470 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: abundance bros. Content, and I wonder what you guys think 471 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: of it. 472 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 2: I'll take a first stab in the passage to you, Stacy, 473 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 2: But I think this goes back to our fundamental starting 474 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: point of why obstruction for adapt hasn't been recognized for adaptation. 475 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: I think part of that is this kind of sense 476 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 2: that adaptation is a normative good. And of course we 477 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: all want adaptation and adaptation benefits everybody, but we know, 478 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 2: particularly as critical adaptation scholars, that it's not that simple. 479 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 2: We know that at its core, adaptation is about addressing vulnerabilities, 480 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: and vulnerabilities are socially constructed, and they're highly political and 481 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 2: so adaptation strategies that are attempting to address those vulnerabilities 482 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: are also necessarily necessarily going to be political. And when 483 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 2: things are political, there are winners and there are losers, 484 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: and so paying attention to who's going to lose matters 485 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 2: a lot. And particularly when we're thinking about the ways 486 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: that adaptation strategies might be redistributing power or shaping of paradynamics. 487 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: That's exactly why we start to see obstruction for adaptation happening. 488 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 2: And so for me, the abundance conversation kind of glosses 489 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: over all of that potential conflict. 490 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it assumes that, like there's one type of adaptation 491 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: that's good for everyone and that there's no conflict there 492 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: at all. 493 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 494 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 3: Well, it's hard to follow Laura on that, but just 495 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 3: to emphasize one thing that she said is that adaptation 496 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 3: is deeply political, right, And I think many people who 497 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 3: don't study adaptation or just have, you know, our cursory 498 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 3: interest or understanding of adaptation don't necessarily realize that. But 499 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 3: Laura and I and maybe even all the authors on 500 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 3: our chapter, we're very much focused on equity and justice, 501 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 3: and this is why we could apply our framework that 502 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 3: intersex power and injustice to really understand adaptation and obstruction you. 503 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 2: Know a little bit better. 504 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 3: But one of the things that al is that adaptation 505 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 3: justice is not just doing more adaptation, right, it's also 506 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 3: asking those very hard and uncomfortable questions, right, whose interests 507 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 3: are serve? Who is left behind and in what condition? 508 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,239 Speaker 3: And one of the you know, context in which we 509 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: have this discussion and it gets very lively, is on 510 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 3: you know, manager treat and coastal relocation, where you know, 511 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 3: some scholars would probably question why should FEMA, for example, 512 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 3: keep on rebuilding you know, beachfront properties. But I think 513 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 3: in many of those instances they don't acknowledge agency of 514 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 3: these people. And I think as adaptation scholars were very 515 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 3: focused on people, were very focused on their livelihoods and 516 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 3: their agency. And this is why a focus on adaptation 517 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 3: obstructure is really critical because once we are just heavily 518 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 3: focused on mitigation, where essentially just you know, on the 519 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 3: score in the interests of the most powerful people. Because 520 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 3: when you're thinking about mitigation obstruction, perhaps the first thing 521 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 3: that comes to mind is the oil companies. Right, they're powerful, 522 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 3: they're rich, you know, but what about the vulnerable communities, 523 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: And this is why we're hoping that our chapter will 524 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 3: you know, introduce this topic to persons who may not 525 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 3: have thought about it before, and you know, encourage them 526 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 3: to explore some of the lines of research that we 527 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 3: have identified in our chapter. 528 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: It totally did that for me. So focus group of 529 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: one success starting place. That's a good segue actually into 530 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: the third type of obstruction that you talk about, which 531 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: is obstruction through hegemony or ideological control. So what are 532 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: we talking about there? And then I want to talk 533 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,239 Speaker 1: about some of the specific tools that you mentioned that 534 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: come into for ideological control too. 535 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 3: This is always a big one for us, right because 536 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 3: you know, here at Emory it environmental policy. I teach 537 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 3: internet environmental law, and hegemoney is a word that comes 538 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 3: up a lot, but sometimes it's not easy to understand, right, 539 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 3: And one of the ways that I try to explain 540 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 3: it is who's the boss? Right, So a more formal 541 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,959 Speaker 3: definition is where we see powerful groups who are dominating 542 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 3: or powerful cultures that are dominating and setting their agenda 543 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 3: or setting the tone, and in this case for adaptation, 544 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 3: so it's looking at the ways in which that might 545 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: privilege their own interests. So specifically, in terms of adaptation obstruction, 546 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 3: Hegemoney manifests when marginalized groups are included only in a 547 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 3: non threatening way, right, in non threatening terms, when they 548 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 3: internalize their own marginalities. I think the phrase that we 549 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 3: use in the chapter, and this is really about being 550 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 3: pushed to the edges of power, or when dominant groups 551 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 3: exert control through money, resources and cultural authority. So related 552 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 3: to that, you know, the ideological control is a form 553 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 3: of obstruction when the ideas and norms the values are 554 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 3: shaped to support these dominant interests and you know, suppressing 555 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 3: those alternative or marginalized voices or the visions that those 556 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 3: persons have for their own adaptation. So in these context, 557 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 3: adaptation can be co opted and marginalized groups can you 558 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 3: be excluded in very very subtle ways. But one of 559 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 3: the things that we try to place emphasis on in 560 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 3: the chapter is that this really shapes what is seen 561 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 3: as legitimate adaptation. And that's a point that would really 562 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 3: want to emphasize because it protects dominant interests and it 563 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 3: silences the alternatives. So some of the examples that we've 564 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 3: given the chapter include infrastructure, which was quite interesting for 565 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 3: us to explore. We've mentioned, for example, coastal developers in Barbados, 566 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 3: how they obstructed like coastal setback laws to protect beach tourism. 567 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 3: And we have, i think an example from the US 568 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 3: Farm Bureau that really long denied climate change right because 569 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 3: they wanted to love before crop insurance policies that would 570 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 3: lock farmers into this kind of carbon intensive monoculture. So, Laura, 571 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 3: I don't know if you have anything to add to that. 572 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean, I think you mostly covered it. 573 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 2: But I think one of the points to emphasize here 574 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 2: is that these are operating at a systems level that 575 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 2: they're often not visible, and so a lot of times 576 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 2: marginalized groups are their actors are complicitly part of the 577 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: substruction because the systems are employe that exert that hegemonic control. 578 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 2: And so this is I think why it's often hard 579 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 2: to see adaptation obstruction, because even those actors that might 580 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 2: be advocating have a more limited view of what might 581 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 2: be possible because because of the ways that these systems 582 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 2: of control shape the shape the discourse. 583 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned infrastructure there, and I thought this section 584 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: on infrastructure as a tool of obstruction was so interesting, 585 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: So I want to have you explain what you mean 586 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,320 Speaker 1: by that and how that happens, maybe give an example 587 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 1: of how it becomes a tool for obstruction. 588 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think this really builds on a 589 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 2: long sort of history of literature thinking about the role 590 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 2: of infrastructure as its relationship with power. Again, and this 591 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 2: is the themes throughout our chapters, how power is exerted 592 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 2: and the ways that that infrastructure can be used to 593 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 2: enable certain priorities to become sort of the top of 594 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 2: the list and others to be sometimes literally taking off 595 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 2: the agenda. I think sort of hydro dams and flooding 596 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 2: is a great example, where you have communities and villages 597 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 2: that are literally flooded to make way for infrastructure. That's 598 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 2: a pretty extreme example, but we also have a lot 599 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 2: more subtle examples of the ways that they can undermine 600 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: indigenous knowledge systems and livelihoods that not only shape what's 601 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 2: happening now, but limit adaptation options into the future for 602 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 2: those communities. And so that's kind of a way that 603 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 2: that infrastructural choices and those investments are exerting kind of control. 604 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 3: In the chapter we took their approach to infrastructure that's 605 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 3: more physical, right, So, as Laura mentioned the case of 606 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 3: the dums or you know, coastal defenses. You know, you 607 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 3: could also think about it in the context of roads 608 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 3: and buildings as well. I mean, we do acknowledge that, 609 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 3: you know, there's quite a bit of literature and soft infrastructure. 610 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 3: We didn't get a lot into that, but maybe you know, 611 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 3: we could see information flows as as soft infrastructure as well. 612 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 3: So that's probably another framing that might be worth discussing 613 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,399 Speaker 3: alongside infrastructure. 614 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,439 Speaker 1: Awesome, And you do mention information itself as a tool 615 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: of obstruction too, so can you talk about what that means? 616 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 3: Well, I think the flow of information and you know 617 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 3: the result in disinformation. Misinformation is really a focus of 618 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 3: the Climate Social Fends network. So all these scholars from 619 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 3: across the world have come together to really analyze this 620 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 3: in the context of climate change and any resulting climate denial. 621 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 3: One of the things that we try to do in 622 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 3: this chapter is to show how information is a political 623 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 3: tool and that information can reinforce or hierarchies through One 624 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 3: example that we gave is scientific uncertainty, where in the 625 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 3: context of the unit triple C, scientific uncertainty is often 626 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 3: used as a tool to stall climate policy negotiations so 627 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 3: we can't do anything about this now because we don't 628 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 3: know enough, right, and that really ties into concerns about 629 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 3: maladaptation that you brought up before, which is probably worth 630 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 3: mentioning here as well. We had a great example from 631 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 3: California in the chapter where realtors had in fact distributed 632 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 3: flowers to oppose retreat policies, which really stoked property value fairs. 633 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 3: And because of this that also, you know, led to 634 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 3: some obstruction because in many instances, you know, the homeowners, 635 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 3: they're wealthy, they're well connected, and they have the power 636 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 3: and power again to really delay any adaptation that might 637 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 3: be possible on the cost. So for us, within the 638 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 3: context of our chapter, we really wanted to show how 639 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:12,839 Speaker 3: information is weaponized to either delay or delegitimize adaptation, and 640 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 3: that in itself is obstruction. 641 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that that pretty much covers it. 642 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 2: But just to go back to it, we do consider 643 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 2: this in that category of kind of the sort of 644 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 2: hegemonic control, and that it is through controlling those flows 645 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 2: of information and the framing of adaptation that obstruction is 646 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 2: enabled in a lot of these cases. And so those 647 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 2: examples I think really show how that can go from 648 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 2: something really abstract to like, oh, you control the information. 649 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 2: That's like, actually, it's about controlling the information about how 650 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 2: adaptation would shape property values on the coast, that that 651 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 2: information is actually utilized to obstruct adaptation strategies. 652 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, Okay, I know there's the answer to like, 653 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: what are the research gaps? Is like, there's lots of them, 654 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: but what are the things that you is particularly like 655 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: to see more research on, or maybe even to see 656 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: attention from outside the research realm with respect to this issue. 657 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 2: I mean, I think really building on what we struggled 658 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 2: with in this chapter, one of the things is really 659 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 2: continuing to tease a part this distinction between obstruction and 660 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 2: resistance and sort of the conditions under which something counts 661 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 2: as obstruction and when is it legitimate resistance and how 662 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 2: do we tell the difference, especially if we're starting to 663 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 2: think about, like how do we act to counter obstruction, 664 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,359 Speaker 2: we don't want to end up in a situation where 665 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 2: we're also countering all legitimate resistance by martialized groups SETI 666 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 2: adaptation action and so getting a lot more clear on 667 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,399 Speaker 2: not just conceptually what does that look like, but from 668 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 2: a practical standpoint, how do those show up on the ground. 669 00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 2: I think it's one of the things that really stood 670 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 2: out to us from this structure. 671 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: I feel like that's such a recurrent theme in the 672 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: renewables conversation right now, where you have like some very 673 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:17,320 Speaker 1: legitimate community concerns about certain approaches to industrial renewable development, 674 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: and then you do have you know, like vested interest 675 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: engaging in instruction too. It's hard on my side of 676 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: the fence. It's hard to tell that story because people, 677 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: you know, are more and more allergic to nuance. So stuff. Yeah, Stacey, again, 678 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: what about you, is there anywhere else you really want 679 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: to see more focus or more research. 680 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 3: Well, I like the examples that Laura gave, and I 681 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 3: know sometimes you know, scholars want to hear so specifically, 682 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 3: what research question are you thinking about? Right? So, when 683 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 3: Lara mentioned, you know, just clarifying that distinction between obstruction 684 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 3: and resist stunts, would be very interested in that. But 685 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 3: you know, what could a research question there look like? 686 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 3: So something along the lines of, you know, when farmers 687 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 3: delay the implementation of DONA driven like climate smart agriculture, 688 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 3: is that resistance or is it obstruction? So identifying these 689 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 3: very specific examples I think would be good. Laura did 690 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:29,800 Speaker 3: mention you know, just where and when does obstruction occur? Right? 691 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 3: So for us, because our scholarship has a very large 692 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 3: focus on you know, countries and conditions in the global celf, 693 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 3: perhaps a specific research question there is do conditions differ 694 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 3: in the global north where obstruction you know tends to 695 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 3: come from you know, wealthy property owners or industries or 696 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 3: donas from the conditions and the global sealth where obstruction 697 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 3: reflects like these power symmetries with donors or elites. I 698 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 3: think the only other thing that I might add here 699 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 3: is something that we've mentioned before is you know, mitigation 700 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 3: obstruction and adaptation obstruction, Like what are the intersections, right, 701 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 3: how do they relate? If we can get more scholars 702 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 3: who probably up to this point dar almost exclusively focused 703 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 3: on mitigation, just sensitized to some of the new ones 704 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 3: with respected adaptation and adaptation obstruction, just to highlight, you know, 705 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 3: what the overlaps are and if there are any feedback 706 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 3: loops between these two domains, I think that could be 707 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 3: really helpful in you know, just countering the kind of 708 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,240 Speaker 3: obstruction that we've been able to document. In a chapter. 709 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Make sure you're subscribed so 710 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: you don't miss an episode. You can find more on 711 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: this season, including transcripts and lots of related articles and 712 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: background information, on our website at drilled dot Media. You 713 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: can also sign up for our newsletter there. Our producers 714 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: for this season are Martin Saltz, Oustwick and Peter Duff. 715 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: Our theme song is Bird in the Hand by Foreknown. 716 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: Our cover art is by Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment 717 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: Attorney is James Wheaton with the First Amendment Project. The 718 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,319 Speaker 1: show was created, written, and reported by me Amy Westervelp. 719 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,439 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and see you next time.