1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: It's Saturday night. You're in your front yard working on 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: your moped. Your dad is sitting on the picnic bench, 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: chatting with you as you install a new starter. You 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: and your friend Alan saved up all year so you 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 1: could each buy a bike. Neither one of them is 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: in great condition, but now that school is out you 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: have all summer to fix them up. After a little while, 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: your friend Schante arrives at your house and he says, hey, 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: Alan's bike has a flat. He wants us to come 10 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: help him fix it. And you're thinking again, his bike 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: is always breaking down. It's always got some kind of problem. 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: At first, you were a little jealous of Alan's red 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: raz but that guy keeps getting flats. You pat the 14 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: seat on your brown moped. It's pretty ugly, but at 15 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: least it's faithful. You ask your dad if it's cool 16 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: if you go over to Alan's grandmothers to get the bike. 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: He looks at his watch and says, well, it's pretty late, 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: but hurry up, go get it and you can bring 19 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: it back here to work on it. When you and 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: Schante get to Alan's, Chante heads inside to help Alan 21 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: with the bike. Another flat. You say, when Alan comes 22 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: out of his house. Don't even start, Alan says, tossing 23 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: you a can of soda. You hang out for a bit, 24 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: and then the three of you start walking Alan's bike 25 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: towards your house. You're teasing Alan about how often his 26 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: mopet has problems when a green sedan coming from the 27 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: opposite direction stops right next to you. The man driving 28 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: the car leans out the window and says, hey, you 29 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: guys have any dope? 30 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 2: Nah? 31 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: Alan says, we don't mess with that shit. Yell at 32 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: the guy, Hey, man, get out of here, and the 33 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: green car speeds off. You walk a bit further down 34 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 1: the block, and then you hear shots ring out. Oh shit. 35 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: All three of you start frantically running down the street 36 00:01:53,440 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: and don't look back. You don't stop running until you 37 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: get back to your house. You look around, making sure 38 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: no one's shooting at you, and then you catch your breath. 39 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: You Chante and Allen talk about the gunshots for a 40 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: few minutes. It's not that out of the ordinary in 41 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: this neighborhood, but still it's totally scariest shit when it happens. 42 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: The adrenaline finally wears off and you start working on 43 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: Alan's bike there's a nail in the tread of the tire. 44 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: You pull it out, plug the hole, and let the 45 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: glue set. After pumping up the tire and giving it 46 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: a few good pushes, Alan grabs his bike and begins 47 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: to walk it back down the street toward his grandmother's house. 48 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: Once Alan gets to his street, he sees the green 49 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: car that stopped to ask for drugs, but now its 50 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: front end is just demolished. It's smashed into the side 51 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: of a house a few doors down from his grandmother's. 52 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: There's smoke and chaos and police just everywhere. Over the 53 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: next few days, you expect to see Alan riding as 54 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: red raz after all, the tire is fixed, but you 55 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: don't see him around the neighborhood. A week passes, you 56 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: knock on his door and his grandmother tells you that 57 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: the man in the green car had been shot. The 58 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: cops asked Alan to come to the police station to 59 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: help with the investigation. She expected Alan to be home 60 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: that same night, but he's being held in jail. She's 61 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: afraid and confused, and suddenly so are you. A few 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: weeks later, you're in your backyard throwing a tennis ball 63 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: against the side of your house, worrying about Alan, wondering 64 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: if he's okay. Out of the corner of your eye, 65 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: you see some people walking towards you and it's four 66 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: police officers. At first you freeze, overcome with fear, and 67 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: then you take off. He took Alan for no reason. 68 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: What's going to stop them from grabbing you and doing 69 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: the same thing. But you're fourteen years old. They're bigger 70 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: than you, faster, and there's more of them. They catch up, 71 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: grab you and put you in handcuffs. Your first thought 72 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: is I'm going to disappear, just like Alan. You're putting 73 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: an interrogation room. You tell the officers what happened that night, 74 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: the night the guy in the green car got shot, 75 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: how you and Alan told him to go away. But 76 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: they don't want to hear the truth. They don't want 77 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: to hear anything you're telling them. One of the detectives, Scoots, 78 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: is seat closer to you. We know Alan did this. 79 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: His hands tested positive for gunpowder residue. You know what 80 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: that is, Son, We know he was involved. You're going 81 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: to tell us what Alan did. You're going to tell 82 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: us that Alan had the gun, that you saw that gun, 83 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: and that what he did is he went up to 84 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: that car that stopped and he talked to the guy 85 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: in the car, And the next thing you knew was 86 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: you heard gunshots and you saw Alan running. And I'm 87 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: gonna tell you something you don't tell us exactly that 88 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: here's what's gonna happen. You're gonna get charged with murder. 89 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: You got that. You know how much power these guys have. 90 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: They already have Alan, who knows what they're gonna do 91 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: to you. You're petrified. The walls feel like they're closing 92 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: in on you. You figure, I should just tell these 93 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: guys what they want to hear. Then my parents can 94 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: help sort this out later. So you do what they say. 95 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: You make up a story, one that sounds like what 96 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: they want to hear, and they record it. You'll tell 97 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: them anything just to get out of that room. Before 98 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: letting you go, the cops tell you you're gonna have 99 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: to testify at Alan's trial. We'll see you. Then. A 100 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: few weeks pass, and you're relieved when school starts again. 101 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: Maybe this will distract you from thinking about Alan, from 102 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: the feeling that it's your fault. He's still sitting in 103 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: jail the day of Allen's trial. You and Chante decide 104 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: you're not going to show up. You're not going to 105 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: testify against your friend, lie again and dig a deeper 106 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: hole for Allan. But the cops show up at your 107 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: school and they bring you both to court. At Alan's trial, 108 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: an officer takes the stand and says that he personally 109 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: collected samples from Allan's hands. He swabbed the front and 110 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: back of them with Q tips and then tested those 111 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: Q tips to see if there was gunpowder residue present. 112 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: The officer testifies the defendant's right hand tested positive for 113 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: antimony and bury him two chemical elements that are present 114 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: in gunpowder residue. There is no doubt in my mind 115 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: that the defendant shot the gun that was used in 116 00:06:54,920 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: this homicide. This is insane. You think you know Alan 117 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: and didn't have a gun. He was with you when 118 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: those shots rang out. How can they just make this 119 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: stuff up? When you're on the witness stand, you glance 120 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: over at the jury. They're all sitting forward, staring right 121 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: at you, through you. It seems. The prosecutors start asking 122 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: you all of these questions. Your answers are all over 123 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: the place. They barely make sense. You were told to 124 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: tell lies, but it's hard to keep it all straight 125 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: because none of what you're testifying to actually happened. But 126 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: at seventeen years old, Alan is convicted of murder and 127 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: sentenced to fifteen years to life in prison. The gunshot 128 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: residue that the police and prosecutors claim was found on 129 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: Alan's hand is the only physical evidence linking him to 130 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: the crime. The story you just heard is based on 131 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: the true events of Raymond Carl Alan Warren's trial. He 132 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: was convicted of murder based on faulty gunshot residue evidence. 133 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: The police also coorused his two friends, Chante and Antonio, 134 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: into giving false testimony, saying that Allan committed the crime. 135 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: Allan is now in his forties and he is still 136 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: in prison. He's been there for over twenty five years, 137 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: serving a sentence of fifteen to life for a murder 138 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: he did not commit. I'm Josh Dubin, civil rights and 139 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney and innocent ambassador to the Innocence Project 140 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: in New York. Today, on Wrongful Conviction Junk Science, we 141 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: examined gunshot residue evidence. As listeners to this show, you've 142 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: probably heard how coerse confessions are used to convict innocent 143 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: people on another podcast in our feed wrongful conviction, false Confessions. Now, 144 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: the coerse confessions of Shanta and Antonio were certainly factors 145 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: in convicting Allan at his trial, but today our focus 146 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: is on faulty forensic science and gunshot residue certainly has 147 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: its issues that began almost a century ago. 148 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 3: When three dozen former Brooklyn Navy yard workers found themselves 149 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 3: irreparably poisoned by the asbestos they used in the construction 150 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 3: of the battleships that won World War Two. Perry White 151 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 3: and Arthur Luxembourg literally put everything on the line to 152 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 3: successfully represent them. Since then, they've championed the rights of 153 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 3: over fifty thousand regular Americans injured through the negligence and 154 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: malfeasance of mainly large corporations. Their ability to level the 155 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 3: playing field against seemingly insurmountable odds has led them to 156 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 3: litigate against opponents as diverse as Big Pharma all the 157 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: way to those responsible for rendering the water of Flint, 158 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 3: Michigan undrinkable. Whites and Luxembourg take it personally when there's 159 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 3: a miscarriage of justice anywhere, and therefore they feel a 160 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 3: sense of responsibility to support Bramfel conviction podcasts. You can 161 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 3: learn more about them by visiting whiteslux dot com. That's 162 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 3: w e I t z l ux dot com. 163 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty three, a group of American police officers 164 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: from several departments gathered in a lab at the police 165 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: headquarters in Mexico City. They were there to observe Teodoro 166 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: Gonzalez demonstrate his new technique for testing gunpowder residue. The 167 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: test became known by many names, the dermal nitrate tests, 168 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: the glove tests, but my favorite might be the paraffin 169 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: gauntlet test. The officers watched as Gonzales poured white, hot 170 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: liquid paraffin wax over the fingers, hands, and wrists of 171 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: his lab assistant. A glimmer of discomfort flashed across the 172 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: assistant's eyes as the hot wax code his skin. Next, 173 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: Gonzales delicately wrapped the layer of cotton around the assistant's 174 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: fingers and hands. Layer after layer of wax, then cotton 175 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: were added until gloves began to form while the paraffin cooled. 176 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: Gonzales explained that after a suspect fires a gun, the 177 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: gunpowder residue becomes embedded deep in the pores of the skin. 178 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: Even weeks after a gun is fired. The hot melted 179 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: paraffin will open up the pores, mix with the oils 180 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: in the skin, and cause the pores to discharge the 181 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: gunpowder residue trapped within them. Part of this experiment included 182 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: Gonzalez's assistant firing a gun and then washing his hands 183 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: prior to them being wrapped. The American officers noted the 184 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: advantage of this technique, suspects couldn't simply wash their hands 185 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: and avoid detection. Gonzales delicately peeled the gloves from the 186 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: hands of his assistant and then took them over to 187 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: the lab table and gently laid them down. He measured 188 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: a small beaker of a chemical solution that contained sulfuric acid. 189 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: Drop by drop, he coated the interior of the gloves 190 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: with the mixture. Minutes later, dark blue specks the size 191 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: of pinpoints began to form, and Gonzales explained that these 192 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: blue dots indicated the presence of dermal nitrates from gunpowder residue. 193 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: The police officers huddled around the paraffin gloves to see 194 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: for themselves. After that, it took only a few years 195 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: for the paraffine test to become widely used in police 196 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: departments across the United States. Within three years of Gonzalez's demonstration, 197 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: it was used as forensic evidence in the murder trial 198 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: of James L. Westwood in Pennsylvania. At his trial, the 199 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: state called expert witnesses who testified the gunpowder rene was 200 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: present on Westwood's hands, indicating that it was he who 201 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: shot and killed his wife. But Westwood's defense attorney called 202 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: his own expert witnessed, a chemist who had conducted his 203 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: own study and found that thirteen different substances could also 204 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: cause the blue dots to appear on the paraffin gloves. 205 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: He cited things like ordinary soot, certain brands of toothpaste, 206 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: tobacco cigars, cigarette ashes, and different types of matches, but 207 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: none of that evidence mattered for the jury. Westwood was 208 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: convicted of the first degree murderer of his wife and 209 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: sentenced to life in prison. By nineteen sixty seven, a 210 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: wider study concluded that rust, colored fingernail polish, and residue 211 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: from evaporated urine, soap, and tapwater would all test positive. 212 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: Contact with any of these objects would create blue dots 213 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: to appear on the gloves in a paraffin test. The 214 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: paraffine test is no longer being used today, and the 215 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: signs behind testing gunshot residue has changed. By the time 216 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: Allan was arrested in nineteen ninety four, at sixteen years old, 217 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: officers used a new version of the test. It's called 218 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: the atomic absorption test, but that test has many of 219 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: the same reliability problems as the paraffin glove. 220 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: None of the evidence that was used to convict Alan 221 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: has withstood the test of time. The test used to 222 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: indicate that he had gunshot residue on his hands is 223 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: no longer considered reliable. 224 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: So joining us today is Joanna Sanchez and she's from 225 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: the Wrongful Conviction Project at the Office of the Ohio 226 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: Public Defender and we're super excited to have her today. 227 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: She's currently representing Alan, whose story we talked about at 228 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: the beginning of this episode. Now, Alan Allan's full name 229 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: is Raymond Carl Allan Warren, and Joanna might refer to 230 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: him as either Alan or Raymond, but don't get confused, okay, 231 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: because Raymond and Alan are the same person. So Joanna, 232 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: it's great to have you here today and I'd like 233 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: you to start by telling us a little bit about Alan. 234 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: What was he like as a sixteen year old living 235 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: in Dayton, Ohio. 236 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: Alan was, by all accounts, a normal teenager. He had 237 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: a few brothers and he's very close with them. He's 238 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 2: close with his mother, very close with his grandmother. You know, 239 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: had lots of friends in the neighborhood, would spend time 240 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: with them. Alan loves working on cars, so that was 241 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: something he spent a lot of time doing, both fixing 242 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: cars and painting them, playing basketball. And now you know, 243 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: I've known him now for six years. He's a very engaging, 244 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: caring person, very talkative, has strong relationships with his family 245 00:15:58,040 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: and friends. 246 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: Still, so I want to get into the details of 247 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: the crime a little bit. So police officers arrive on 248 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: Allen Street the night when he had been fixing his 249 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: moped and this green car had crashed into the side 250 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: of a house and the driver is shot. So what 251 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: makes them even decide to go after Allan as a 252 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: suspect in the first place? 253 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: So I think it's a matter of circumstance. The boys, 254 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 2: they worked on their scooters for a period of time 255 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: after they heard the gunshots, and then in order to 256 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: go home, Alan had to essentially go through the crime 257 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 2: scene because it happened on the street he was living 258 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: on with his grandma's. So Alan that night told the 259 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: police about this encounter with the victim, and the police 260 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 2: asked him if he was willing to come down to 261 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 2: the police station to give a statement. So he voluntarily 262 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: went to the police station and also voluntarily submitted to 263 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: a gunshot residue test. And the result of that gunshot 264 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: residue test was that Alan tested negative on his left 265 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 2: hand even though he's left handed, and the palm of 266 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 2: his right hand, though, tested positive for two elements that 267 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: are known to be in gunshot residue. And I honestly 268 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 2: think once that gunshot residue test came back, they just 269 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: became laser focused on Alan. 270 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about that test. What 271 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: exactly did gunshot residue testing entail at the time when 272 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: Alan went down to that police station. 273 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: So, gunshot residue testing, the idea behind it is that 274 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 2: one a person shoots a firearm, particles will be admitted 275 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 2: that will land on their clothing, or their hands or 276 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 2: their face, and that those particles can then be tested. 277 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: You can't see them, but they can be tested and 278 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: tell the please something about whether the person being tested 279 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: might have shot a firearm. All gunshot residue testing is 280 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: not a simple yes or no test. This is gunshot 281 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 2: residue or it's not. What it's really testing for is 282 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 2: the elements that are known to make up gunshot residue. 283 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: So specific they test for three elements in most circumstances, 284 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 2: and that's lead, barium, and antimony. In Raymond's case, they 285 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: actually only tested for two of those elements, and what 286 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 2: they used was an atomic absorption test, which is now 287 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: largely out of use, and that's because it has a 288 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: high risk of producing false positives. So the reason the 289 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: AA test is unreliable is because it tests for elements 290 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: that are also present in items that are completely unrelated 291 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 2: to guns. So as a result, a person who's never 292 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: touched or been near a gun could falsely test positive. 293 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: So Joanna, give us an example. What are some things 294 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: that Alan might have touched that would make him test 295 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: positive for gunshot residue. 296 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 2: Brake linings are one example of an item that has 297 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: the same elements as gunshot residue, and on the night 298 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 2: of the shooting, as we know, Raymond, who frequently was 299 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 2: working on cars, had contact with brake linings while he 300 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 2: fixed his motorized scooter. So the AA test as used 301 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 2: in Raymond's case is problematic because we can't know if 302 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 2: those two elements came from gunshot residue or if they 303 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: came from brake linings or some other substance that has 304 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 2: those same elements as gunshot residue. 305 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: So you mentioned that the AA test, the atomic absorption 306 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: test that was used on Allen, is not really considered 307 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: any more to be dependable, but they're still using gunshot 308 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: residue as a form of evidence, just with new tests. 309 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: Has signs progressed in any significant way since the AA test. 310 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: Gunshot residue testing generally has progressed somewhat. The AA test 311 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 2: is no longer really in favor because of its limitations, 312 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 2: and there was a switch over in the mid two 313 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 2: thousands to a test called SEMEDS, and that test was 314 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: better in that it not only would tell an analyst 315 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 2: whether those elements were present, but also could tell them 316 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 2: the shape and size of the elements and sort of 317 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 2: how they function together, whether they were fused, whether they 318 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: were the shape of a sphere, all things that would 319 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 2: be important for distinguishing between gunshot residue and let's say 320 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: another substance. And so in order for an analyst to 321 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 2: have any confidence that something is actually gunshot resume, they'd 322 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: need to do that sort of morphological analysis and also 323 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 2: compare all of the elements in that gunshot resdue sample 324 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 2: with all of the elements in other substances so that 325 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 2: they can actually eliminate other items. 326 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: Okay, So that sounds like it does have the potential 327 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: to be a more accurate test because you're able to 328 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: look at the residue under a microscope and tell that 329 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: the molecules actually come from a gun and can't be 330 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: from anywhere else. But is this a perfect fix? 331 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 2: Even if that's done properly, there's still a second issue 332 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: with gunshot resdue testing, and that's the reason why the 333 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 2: scientific community has really pulled back from this testing, and 334 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: that issue is contamination. So gunshot residue is incredibly transferable. 335 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: It's very easy to pick it up by touching a 336 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 2: surface that's contaminated with gunshot residue. So if I were 337 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: to shoot a gun and shake your hand, you could 338 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 2: very likely test positive for gunshot residue and with that, 339 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 2: that creates just too big of a risk for environmental contamination. 340 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 3: And what it. 341 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: Means is that, you know, people who touch the back 342 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: of police cars, handcuffs, police officers, police stations, there's a 343 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 2: good chance they could pick up gunshot residue from those surfaces, 344 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: even though they themselves never touched a gun. And we 345 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 2: know that happened in Raymond's case because he was transported 346 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: to the police station in the back of a police 347 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,479 Speaker 2: car and then held in an interrogation room for several 348 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 2: hours before he was actually tested. If on the call 349 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 2: before that police officer had taken somebody who shot a 350 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: gun down to the police station, that person could have 351 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: left gunshot resdue there and then Alan gets in the 352 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 2: car and picks it up. And there have been studies 353 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 2: across the country that show that kind of thing occurs. 354 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 2: So there is a study in Colorado where they tested 355 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 2: I think forty police cars excuse me, twenty six police 356 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: cars and they found gunshot residue particles and fourteen of them. 357 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: So this kind of transference is very common, unfortunately. 358 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: So and you know, in hearing this, I got to 359 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: tell you, this is like it's startling, it's scary. And 360 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: you initially start to think, well, how many people might 361 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: have been wrongfully convicted when the evidence in their case 362 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: was just gunshot residue on their hands. I mean, you 363 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: have to admit it's pretty compelling evidence for people that 364 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: don't know otherwise. And I mean what I mean for 365 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: people that don't know otherwise, I'm talking about jurors. So 366 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: with that in mind, how big of a role did 367 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: faulty gunshot residue evidence plane Allen's case? 368 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 2: The gunshot residue evidence here was critical in Alan's trial. 369 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: The examiner when he testified, what he said was that 370 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: this positive test means one of three things. Either Alan 371 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 2: shot a gun, Alan was a victim of a shooting, 372 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: or Alan handled ammunition. We we know he wasn't a victim, 373 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: and both of the other options still implicate him, whether 374 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: he's shooting a gun or handling ammunition. What the examiner 375 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: left out is the fourth possibility that this is contamination 376 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 2: and the fifth possibility, which is that it's not gunshot 377 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: residue at all. It could just be barium and antimony 378 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: on Alan's hands as a result of him having contact 379 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: with brake linings earlier that night, and that is the 380 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 2: entire scope of the physical evidence in this trial. 381 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: So as a result of this gives gunshot residue evidence, 382 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: Alan gets sentenced to fifteen years to life. He's only 383 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 1: seventeen years old. I mean, what options did he have 384 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: to seek recourse? How would one go about proving that 385 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: gunshot residue evidence is false. 386 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 2: It's incredibly difficult for anybody who's incarcerated to collect the 387 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 2: evidence or knowledge necessary to file a new trial motion 388 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: or raise a claim that they were wrongfully convicted. So 389 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 2: part of that is he's locked inside, so he can't 390 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 2: go out and conduct any sort of investigation. He lacks 391 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: the funds, so he doesn't have the ability to hire 392 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 2: an attorney or an investigator or an expert witness to 393 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 2: go get this evidence. Alan was challenged and that he 394 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: couldn't even get the records in his case. So if 395 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: he wanted to write a motion for a few years, 396 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: he did not even have a copy of his transcript 397 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 2: that would have helped him to do that. So there 398 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 2: are so many barriers. He's a smart guy, but he's 399 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 2: not an attorney. I mean, that's why we say people 400 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: should have attorneys to litigate these complex issues. Is incredibly difficult, 401 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: and it's all the more so for somebody who's a 402 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: teenager and they're incarcerated. They don't have access to these things. 403 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 2: And so he fought on his own for years and 404 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 2: years to try to challenge his conviction. The kind of 405 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 2: changes and evolution with gunshot residue was happening, but he 406 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 2: did not really know that. He didn't have access to 407 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 2: forensic science articles or expert witnesses, so he wasn't even 408 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 2: aware that that was necessarily an issue in his case. 409 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 2: And eventually, in nineteen ninety nine, Chantey Hunt gave a 410 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 2: statement and said, I lied because I was scared. Alan 411 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: was with us when we heard the shots, so he 412 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 2: could not have shot the victim. And in two thousand 413 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: and eight, Antonio gave a very similar statement saying, again, 414 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: I was scared, and this is a lie, and I 415 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 2: did not come for all these years because I was 416 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 2: scared of purgery charges. 417 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: Now the Innocence Project has become involved in Allen's case, 418 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: and you and your co counsel are fighting to get 419 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: Allan justice. But as our listeners know by now, as 420 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure you and I can agree, this problem is 421 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: so much bigger than Alan's case, what needs to happen, 422 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: in your opinion, to make sure things like gunshot residue 423 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: evidence stop being used to convict innocent people so that 424 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: this doesn't happen again and again and again. 425 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 2: I think police officers and lab examiners should be careful 426 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: about when they do gunshot resdue testing and only do 427 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 2: it in the very optical circumstances, if at all. I 428 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 2: think there are some police officers who feel that it's 429 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: just a piece of the puzzle and it's a helpful 430 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: tool and the investigation. But I think the risk with 431 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: that is that it leads to tunnel vision. You know, 432 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 2: once you have that piece of evidence, you become fixated 433 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 2: on a suspect, and our courts, our judges, need to 434 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 2: look at it critically as well. The court is the 435 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 2: gatekeeper of expert testimony and forensic evidence that comes in, 436 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: and what we're seeing is that some courts are limiting 437 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 2: what can be said about gunshot rest of evidence, but 438 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: they're still allowing it in. And I think at some 439 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 2: point we hit a breaking point where the risk of 440 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 2: prejudice for this evidence outweighs the benefit of it because 441 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 2: it is so unreliable and so many different aspects that 442 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 2: are we risking swaying the jury with evidence that really 443 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: isn't reliable enough and shouldn't be presented at all all. 444 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: Right, So that certainly addresses what people involved in the 445 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: justice system can do, But what can every day people do. 446 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: We have a lot of our listeners asking us, you know, 447 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: what can I do to help? So please tell them 448 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: things they can do to make sure that this kind 449 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: of junk science stops being used and it gets out 450 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: of our criminal justice system once and for all. 451 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing is people sharing this information 452 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: and sharing podcasts like this, sharing when somebody is exonerated 453 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: based on forensic evidence that we now know has been discredited. 454 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 2: Is the more people that know about this, I think 455 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 2: the more the system will improve. I think the impact 456 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 2: of sharing this podcast and sharing his story is that 457 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 2: more people hear about it, and then they take that 458 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 2: knowledge with them when they vote, and they take that 459 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: knowledge with them when they interact with public officials and 460 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 2: ask them, how do you approach wrongful convictions? How do 461 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: you approach forensic science? Are their laws in place that 462 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: allow for these convictions to be challenged appropriately? And I 463 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 2: think having the knowledge that's gained from listening to a 464 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 2: podcast like this equips people with the sort of the 465 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: talking points and the ability to ask those questions of 466 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: public officials. 467 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about where Ellen is 468 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: now and what options are left for him at this point. 469 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: Now, Alan had litigated emotion asking for a new trial, 470 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 2: and we stepped into that litigation on his behalf in 471 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, and it's kind of been up and down 472 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: through the courts over several years. But earlier this year 473 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court of Ohio decided not to take his case. 474 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 2: So where we're at is we continue to fight for him, 475 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: and we believe strongly in his innocence and that he 476 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 2: was wrongfully convicted, and so we're moving forward. We're hoping 477 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: to find new evidence or hoping that a new avenue 478 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: of relief opens up that allows Alan to challenge his 479 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 2: conviction and hopefully one day go home. 480 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: Look, Joanna, I my heart sort of you know, aches 481 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: for you and for Alan really because I have been 482 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: there before. I know that when cases you know, don't 483 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: work out, you know on our initial first try or 484 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: first fifteen tries and go the way we need them 485 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: to go. Because our clients are innocent and we know 486 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: they're innocent. It can be so frustrating. What's your reaction 487 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: when you have setbacks like this. I know that I've 488 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: wept on my wife's shoulder before, I know that I 489 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: have punched walls. I've had the spectrum of emotions. But 490 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: you know, tell me a little bit about what it's 491 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: like for you when you know you're faced with setbacks 492 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: like this, and you know what it's like with Alan 493 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: still sitting in prison. 494 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 2: I think the important thing we do is we kind 495 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: of keep moving forward and keep thinking about our clients, 496 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 2: keep thinking about Alan and what he's going through, And 497 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: it's so important that we stay in the fight and 498 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: continue to be a voice for those people. And I 499 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: hope one day it's not this way. But I know 500 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: for me, I look at all the two thousand plus 501 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: exonerations that we know about, and I see that those 502 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 2: are never easy, right. They come after set back, and 503 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: people have to try multiple different times, multiple different ways. 504 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: And so I hope that at some point in time 505 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be that way. But at least 506 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 2: for now, I know that it's absolutely worth it to 507 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 2: keep fighting for this person and to keep hoping that 508 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 2: one day something we do works and somebody pays attention 509 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 2: and that he gets the justice he's do. 510 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: You know, I tell people all the time that these 511 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: wrongful convictions are super difficult. You have to fight tall odds, 512 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: You have to keep on fighting forward in the face 513 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: of constant rejection from appellate courts. And if you're not 514 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: willing to deal with setbacks, if you can't pick yourself 515 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: up and dust yourself off and keep charging up that 516 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: steep slope, you're really in the wrong business. And it 517 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: really does take a team effort. So the more you 518 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: can share these stories, the better off we're all going 519 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: to be, because there's power in numbers, and there's power 520 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: in a collective message. So I hope you will do 521 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: just that. Please share our podcast and take action, whether 522 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: it be writing your local judges as I often implore 523 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: you all to do, or ensuring that when you vote, 524 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: you are voting for those judges and the jurisdiction which 525 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: you live that actually have the qualifications and the temperament 526 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: to be open minded and thorough such that they won't 527 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: blindly accept that legal precedent equates to reliability. Sometimes bad 528 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: science remains in our system of justice because it goes unchallenged. 529 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: It's up to all of us to shine a bright 530 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: light on these junk sciences and force a reckoning. Next week, 531 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: we'll explore the junk science of tool mark identification with 532 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: science journalist Tim Recorth. Wrongful Conviction Junk Science is a 533 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,959 Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal 534 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,719 Speaker 1: Company Number One. Thanks to our executive producer Jason Flamm 535 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: and the team at Signal Company Number One executive producer 536 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: Kevin Wortis and senior producers Karen Kornhaber and Britz Spangler. 537 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: Our music was composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow 538 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: me on Instagram at Dubin dot Josh. Follow the Wrongful 539 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: Conviction podcast on Facebook and on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction 540 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at wrong Conviction