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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Sunday, October nineteenth, and we

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Speaker 2: hope you had a beautiful weekend. How quickly the weekend

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Speaker 2: has gone by.

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Speaker 3: I had the.

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Speaker 2: Benefit of actually hanging out with Joseph Scott Morgan this

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Speaker 2: weekend and his beautiful family.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we had a few toasts.

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Speaker 2: And honestly, it makes me just know that all is

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Speaker 2: right in the world, despite what the headlines may say.

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Speaker 3: So we're so glad that you were here.

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Speaker 2: Gather around, pull up a chair proverbially speaking to our

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Speaker 2: kitchen table, and listen.

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Speaker 3: Mondays upon us and it's going to be.

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Speaker 2: A great week Let's start there first and foremost, because

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Speaker 2: there's a lot happening in the news right now, and

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Speaker 2: as you can imagine, it's scientific Sunday. So we have

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Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, our forensics expert, and.

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Speaker 4: Do you hear my test tubes and beakers rattling?

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Speaker 3: And do you ever test right now is that.

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Speaker 2: I got your lab exactly, host of the hit podcast

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Speaker 2: body Bags. And also we're going to do a segment

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Speaker 2: called crime Lab tonight, right body so we're going to

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Speaker 2: actually talk about the time of death and how that's

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Speaker 2: determined by all you fancy smart people. Joseph, So we're

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Speaker 2: so happy that you're here. High fives and also listen, welcome.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here as always with.

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Speaker 3: Body move In.

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Speaker 2: Courtney is out for the evening, but that's okay because

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Speaker 2: we have the boys jumping in.

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Speaker 3: We have Tah Sam.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we are first show what I'm serious one on

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Speaker 2: one baby, Oh my god, so on everybody. We're so

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Speaker 2: proud of all of us, and we're so grateful for

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Speaker 2: the community and for the conversation and for you guys

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Speaker 2: to be jumping in with talkbacks and leaving us dms.

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Speaker 2: My dms have been getting righteously good. It's everything from

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Speaker 2: like exercise and like weighted vests exercises to a lot

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Speaker 2: of tips on some of the cases that we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: So just so you know, tonight we're going to do

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Speaker 2: a deep dive about Ellen Greenberg. Obviously that is full

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Speaker 2: court Press getting a lot of attention this week, there's been,

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Speaker 2: you know, yet another determination that it was allegedly suicide,

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Speaker 2: and Joseph, you're going to break that down for us

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Speaker 2: a bit. Obviously we're doing our true crime and chill

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Speaker 2: about the documentary surrounding this case, so we're going to

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Speaker 2: break it up into two parts. But Joseph's been following

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Speaker 2: this since day one, and quite frankly, I would have

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Speaker 2: to say that you and Nancy Grace have been really

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Speaker 2: keeping this case alive for Ellen's parents especially. I know

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Speaker 2: you're very close with them, so we're so happy to

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Speaker 2: have you here to discuss Also, you know, listen, we're

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Speaker 2: going to discuss this tomorrow in a much bigger way.

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Speaker 2: But Prince Andrew kind of in the hot seat right now.

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Speaker 2: This has huge He has relinquished his titles, his royal titles,

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Speaker 2: and that is based on a conversation with King Charles

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Speaker 2: who says this was becoming a bit of a distraction.

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Speaker 2: That is, of course, post all of the conversation around

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Speaker 2: his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier and sex offender,

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Speaker 2: and the book with Virginia Guffrey is set to drop

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Speaker 2: on Tuesday. So there's been excerps that we've been talking

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Speaker 2: about throughout the week. I have a sneaking suspicion this

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Speaker 2: is going to be a very big story this week,

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Speaker 2: so we're paying very close attention. We'll be doing a

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Speaker 2: very big deep dive tomorrow. But I just want to

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Speaker 2: acknowledge that this is happening, and it's really major. Also,

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Speaker 2: the most precious our loop the museum in Paris.

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Speaker 3: If you haven't been where Lisa is, what is going on?

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Speaker 5: There has been a heist of with chainsaws, chainsaws, jewels

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Speaker 5: around It's unimaginable and broad green light.

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Speaker 3: They broads in line, right in line.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're seeing you know, I'm getting people literally

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Speaker 2: real time that are on vacation there that said that

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Speaker 2: they were in line in that Suddenly the line ended

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Speaker 2: and security said to them, oh, there's a tech issue.

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Speaker 3: A tech issue. I'll say, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Somebody busted in with some like chainsaws, old school and

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Speaker 2: has stolen precious rules and how did that happen?

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Speaker 3: How?

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Speaker 2: And this is like ocean eleven times a bajillion. So

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Speaker 2: here we are and and listen all that and more

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Speaker 2: we are Taha is actually going to jump in tonight,

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Speaker 2: he's going to give us his first official first story. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: let's start.

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Speaker 3: I got to put my vest on, my weighted best change.

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Speaker 6: Okay, I'm ready, I'm ready.

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Speaker 2: All Right, we have a stack knight of headlines and

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Speaker 2: leading it up his time.

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Speaker 6: Okay, well I have I'm going to lead with saying

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Speaker 6: something going back to what you just talked about, how

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Speaker 6: you're saying a lot of people are sending you d

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Speaker 6: ms and you're getting all these all I get so

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Speaker 6: many d ms from different friends that it used to

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Speaker 6: be about fashion and you know, skincare. Now I get

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Speaker 6: all these dms about cold cases and killers and kidnappings.

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Speaker 6: And this particular case is one that all my friends

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Speaker 6: kept sending me because I used to live in New York.

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Speaker 6: So this one is a little crazy, but I'll fill

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Speaker 6: you in on all the details. But basically, the death

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Speaker 6: of Jacob zieban hood Was, who was found stabbed in

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Speaker 6: his Harlem apartment in August, has now officially been ruled

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Speaker 6: a homicide. Now this is intensifying. I know we didn't

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Speaker 6: really cover this one on our show, but I've been

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Speaker 6: kind of tracking this one a little bit off camera

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Speaker 6: or off air. This is intensifying the ongoing investigation into

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Speaker 6: his husband, Donald deeben Hood, who has not been charged

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Speaker 6: with the killing. So let me fill you in on

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Speaker 6: some of the story because it's really unusual to me

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Speaker 6: why he's not been charged. But maybe between body and

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Speaker 6: Steph and court, you guys can help me understand why.

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Speaker 6: On August first this year, Jacob, he's a fitness trainer.

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Speaker 6: He was discovered with multiple stab wounds in the bathroom

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Speaker 6: of the Harlem part that he shares with his husband,

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Speaker 6: Donald zeban Hood. Excuse me, he's a male model. So

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Speaker 6: this is one of the reasons the story got a

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Speaker 6: lot of attention is because.

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Speaker 2: Strikingly attention and the superhan yeah the entire time.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, but I mean partially, I think the New York factor.

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Speaker 6: They both have a big Instagram presence, They're attractive, so

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Speaker 6: all those things tie in together. Now, the sad part

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Speaker 6: is the couple had a documented history of domestic violence,

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Speaker 6: and Donald had been previously arrested for assaulting Jacob and

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Speaker 6: for violating protective order, and.

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Speaker 3: Jacob's the victim, right, you are correct, Donald assaulted Jacob previously.

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Speaker 3: They have been Okay, I just want to make sure

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Speaker 3: I follow on that.

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Speaker 6: I know it gets confusing listening to the two male names,

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Speaker 6: but I'm going to try to remind everyone as we

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Speaker 6: go along. So again, Jacob zebn Hood. Jacob's death has

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Speaker 6: been ruled a homicide by the New York City Official

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Speaker 6: Office of Chief Medical Examiner. Now, the cause of death

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Speaker 6: was multiple blunts and sharp force injuries, with contributing factors

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Speaker 6: including alcohol. And I know about that because of white lotus.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, that's so, we'll talk about that later. But

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Speaker 6: Donald Devon Hood was in He was indicted in October

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Speaker 6: first for charges including burglary and assault, but has not

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Speaker 6: been charged with murder. I find that sidebar because the

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Speaker 6: burglary is.

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Speaker 3: So sidebar for just a second. So he was indicted

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Speaker 3: for assault and burglary. Now was this assault in burglary

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Speaker 3: the same day as the murder?

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Speaker 6: Correct?

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Speaker 3: Really? Okay, so he has not been indicted for the murder,

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Speaker 3: but he has lesser indictments for assault.

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Speaker 6: And okay, I'm glad that. And we're going to circle

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Speaker 6: back to that because I kind of have a little

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Speaker 6: theory as to why they might have done this, but

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Speaker 6: we're going to unpack it together. The victim, Jacob, had

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Speaker 6: texted his father during the assault, which had happened on

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Speaker 6: July thirty first, so earlier that that day, and it

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Speaker 6: included photos of his injury, and he was stating that

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Speaker 6: Donald had quote attack, beat and sliced him. So the

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Speaker 6: dad actually received a lot of this information directly. Authorities came.

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Speaker 6: They found the apartment in disarray, blood splattered on the walls,

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Speaker 6: furniture encounters Donald. This is here's another weird moment to me.

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Speaker 6: Donald claims, I found he'll he claims he found Jacob

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Speaker 6: dead the next morning around for him. Donald says he

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Speaker 6: was sitting on the couch after falling asleep and then

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Speaker 6: he discovered his husband slumped over the toilet and called

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Speaker 6: nine to one one.

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Speaker 3: So so woke up to this. He's what he's saying.

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Speaker 6: What he's saying, So it almost implies. I guess, if

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Speaker 6: you're looking at it from whatever Donald's angle is that

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Speaker 6: maybe he committed suicide or someone else was involved. I don't.

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Speaker 3: So he's saying that the text that he sent his

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Speaker 3: dad was you know, his histrionic or something. If he

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Speaker 3: made it up that he was being assaulted.

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Speaker 6: That it's possible. It's it's very possible. Because Donald is

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Speaker 6: saying he's pleading not guilty to all charges. So if

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Speaker 6: he's saying he's not involved with this, then who would

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Speaker 6: have done it? And for some reason this gave me

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Speaker 6: sort of Ellen Greenberg vibes. It's sort of this sort

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Speaker 6: of you know, someone that.

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Speaker 3: Is except for he his has been ruled a homicide.

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Speaker 3: Homicide A big difference, right.

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Speaker 6: So that's that's really the latest with that case, and

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Speaker 6: we're going to keep, you know, following as it goes along. Now,

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Speaker 6: what I found interesting because you know, Jacob is he's

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Speaker 6: a thirty four year old for thirty four year old

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Speaker 6: fitness trainer. He's affiliated with this popular company system Fit,

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Speaker 6: and Donald is the forty year old model and as

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Speaker 6: I mentioned, they had a you know a history of

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Speaker 6: domestic violence dating back for a while now. But I

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Speaker 6: have a forensic question for Joseph immediately off the start,

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Speaker 6: if you can. I know you're just getting up to

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Speaker 6: speed on this case. So this was a little new

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Speaker 6: to you. So I'm wondering because you know, I love

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Speaker 6: the forensic worlds that you've started to bring me into.

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Speaker 6: You know, as I mentioned earlier, the apartment was covered

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Speaker 6: in blood. Can the blood patterns help them understand what

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Speaker 6: actually happened based on looking at that.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, because you know, we can interpret we

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Speaker 4: can interpret blood velocity based upon the deposition. So you've

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Speaker 4: got cast off blood which comes off of a nine

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Speaker 4: or or a punch even slung onto the wall, okay,

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Speaker 4: and that's going to have a different appearance as opposed

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Speaker 4: to say someone that has punched adjacent pill wall. And

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Speaker 4: you've got what's referred to as low velocity blood deposition.

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Speaker 4: And then you have things like contacting smears and transfers,

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Speaker 4: like if you have somebody you can go and you

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Speaker 4: can go to one of these scenes that involves blood letting,

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Speaker 4: and if you have a fight going on between two

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Speaker 4: obviously healthy males perhaps we don't know one, you know

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Speaker 4: it's going to be vicious, okay. And so you can

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Speaker 4: have literally I've seen blood depositional walls where people have

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Speaker 4: roll standing up against the wall and it just kind

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Speaker 4: of transfers over almost like an ink roller if you will,

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Speaker 4: or ink roller. We'll just transfer dependent upon how saturated

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Speaker 4: clothing is and their skin as well. So yeah, we

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Speaker 4: can interpret movement, movement, and action based upon how the

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Speaker 4: blood is deposited on any number of surfaces.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, interesting, Okay, I did not know that. Well, something

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Speaker 6: continually as we go along with this.

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Speaker 3: So this is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're right

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Speaker 3: in the middle of talking about the death of thirty

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Speaker 3: four year old fitness grew Jacob Zeebenhood. Now, his husband

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Speaker 3: has been indicted for assault and burglary, but his husband

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Speaker 3: has not been indicted for murder. And that's got that's

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Speaker 3: really curious to me. If you want to know, if

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Speaker 3: you have something to say, give us a call. Eighty

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Speaker 3: eight thirty one crime. But I have an idea as

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Speaker 3: to why. So it says that he was indicted on

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Speaker 3: October first, which was, you know, nine days ago, and

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Speaker 3: this report finding of being a homicide is brand new, right,

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Speaker 3: So here's what happened. They had a grand jury trial.

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Speaker 3: I'm imagining there was some sort of presentation made to

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Speaker 3: the grand jury about the assault and burglary, and he

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Speaker 3: was indicted on those. It hadn't been ruled a homicide yet.

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Speaker 3: So I would imagine if they suspect the husband donald

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Speaker 3: of murder, there'll be another presentation to the grand jury

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Speaker 3: and he'll have new new charges.

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Speaker 6: I would imagine that, now, can you. So those would

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Speaker 6: be a completely separate set of charges, like or would

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Speaker 6: they could they still keep.

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Speaker 3: They't just add it. They'll add it to his current charges. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: or upgrade his assault charges to homicide. Okay, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I'm not familiar one hundred percent, but

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Speaker 3: right I imagine that's what That's what's going to happen,

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Speaker 3: is that within the next couple of days, the DA

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Speaker 3: will present you know, in some states, the grand jury

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Speaker 3: only convenes, you know, once a month, but in New York,

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure if you know, let us know, it

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Speaker 3: isn't thirty one crime, but next time they have a

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Speaker 3: grand jury, they'll they'll throw these in. Okay, unless they

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Speaker 3: you know, unless they have some sort of preliminary hearing

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Speaker 3: and they have some a trial about it, a mini

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Speaker 3: trial presenting those charges, but they'll probably have a grand jury.

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Speaker 6: Okay, that makes sense. But Joseph, I have about another

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Speaker 6: question for you, Joseph, since I've got you here, because

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Speaker 6: I had I had questions as I was reading this

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Speaker 6: whole thing. They found his body slumped over the toilet, right,

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Speaker 6: are their body? Can you tell something by the position

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Speaker 6: of a body, like does that help you understand how

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Speaker 6: and when the attack might.

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Speaker 4: Know, because yeah, absolutely, And what's really key here is

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Speaker 4: that this one gentleman is saying that he passed out

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Speaker 4: on the sofa and or he went to sleep on

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Speaker 4: the sofa or whatever. Is well, that goes timing, which

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Speaker 4: by the way, is something we're going to talk about

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Speaker 4: later on. Yeah my death. Yeah absolutely, And depended upon

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Speaker 4: the level of postmortem changes that have taken place in

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Speaker 4: the victim's body, we can begin to kind of ascertain

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Speaker 4: timeline that the husband is stating. Marys up with what

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Speaker 4: we're seeing scientifically evidence for us, it's well.

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Speaker 3: We'll keep monitoring it up. Next, we're taking a deep

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Speaker 3: dive into the Ellen Greenberg case and responding to the

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Speaker 3: new suicide ruling that has everyone talking. Keep it right here,

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Speaker 3: True crimes Name.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: body Move in. Our beautiful sweet Courtney is off for

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Speaker 2: the night, hopefully doing something extraordinary and fabulous without us.

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Speaker 2: She'll be back tomorrow to tell us all about it.

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Speaker 2: But no sweat, because we have tah Adam and Sam

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Speaker 2: jumping in. They are ready to take your call because

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Speaker 2: it's scientific Sunday, and we have Joseph Scott Morgan, host

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Speaker 2: of the hit podcast body Bags, with us tonight breaking

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Speaker 2: down all kinds of forensics. So remember if you want

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Speaker 2: to jump in Live eighty eight three one crime please

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Speaker 2: do we love it. Or you could always leave us

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Speaker 2: a talkback on the iHeartRadio app. Just download the it's free,

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Speaker 2: by the way, download the iHeartRadio app. And then the

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Speaker 2: top right hand corner there's like a little microphone. You

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Speaker 2: just push that and boom, you leave a talk back

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Speaker 2: and then you get to be on the show. So

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Speaker 2: it's a zero stress and we get to hear your voice.

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Speaker 3: So and if you don't think there's enough time, leave yes,

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Speaker 3: right them both, Yeah, exactly, leave two talkbacks exactly. It's

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Speaker 3: really just it's so.

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Speaker 2: Fun to hear your voice. And it was surely just

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Speaker 2: moves the needle for all of our hearts. So I

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Speaker 2: say that collectively. In fact, we have a talk back

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Speaker 2: right now, let's go to that.

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Speaker 7: HI just just thought about Ellen Greenberg. It would be

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Speaker 7: interesting to know statistically how many women commit suicide by

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Speaker 7: stabbing themselves. It seems to me if a woman is

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Speaker 7: going to take her life.

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Speaker 4: With a knife.

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Speaker 7: She would do it in a tub to contain a mess.

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Speaker 7: You're in the kitchen, and to stab all over the place.

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Speaker 3: It's she took the words out of my mouth. I

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Speaker 3: would literally was just saying the break. Women don't like

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Speaker 3: to make a mess, wasn't I toa She took the

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Speaker 3: words literally out of my mouth. Women don't. When when

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Speaker 3: women commit suicide, it's usually via you know, like some

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Speaker 3: sort of you know, purposeful overdose or poisoning of some kind,

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Speaker 3: because women want to be presented a certain way. Right,

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Speaker 3: we were vain, we're vain creatures like we just.

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Speaker 2: Are and as and we're considering we don't want to

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Speaker 2: leave a mess. And like, imagine you take your life,

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Speaker 2: somebody has to find you, right, somebody then has to

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Speaker 2: identify you, and there's a ripple to that. Sometimes that's

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Speaker 2: the intention, right, The intention is to leave a message

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Speaker 2: where somebody will find you and where somebody will have

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Speaker 2: to identify you. And that is a message that's a

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Speaker 2: pretty loud one. Is Statistically speaking, women typically have a

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Speaker 2: very different approach.

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Speaker 3: Dare I say, is that accurate?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 3: It's one hundred percent accurate. So, according to the CDC

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Speaker 3: data and forensic pathology literature, which I'm sure Joseph can

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Speaker 3: absolutely and educationally, so you know, chime in on. Less

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Speaker 3: than two percent of all suicides involve a stabbing, and

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Speaker 3: it gets even lower when you talk about women. It's

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Speaker 3: less than one percent of women will stab themselves. And

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of different reasons for that. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's it's so painful and prolonged and and sometimes unsuccessful,

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Speaker 3: like you know, you're not always successful, and it requires,

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Speaker 3: you know, overcoming this really strong self preservation technique or

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Speaker 3: instinct that we have in our bodies. You know, you're

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Speaker 3: you want.

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Speaker 2: Resurvive, that want to survive, like humans want to live

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Speaker 2: through it. So even with ongoing trauma like a stab wound, right,

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Speaker 2: the human spirit wants to live through it. Right.

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Speaker 3: Our bodies are instinctively, right, yeah, instinct like even though

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Speaker 3: you might want to end it instinctively your body but

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Speaker 3: actively fos against it. Right. And you know, women statistically

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Speaker 3: will favor methods to our talkback that are less violent

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Speaker 3: or disfiguring, such as you know, overdose or common monoxide poisoning.

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Speaker 3: It's typically the favorable method for women. And when self

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Speaker 3: stabbing does occur, it's most often superficial hesitation marks or

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Speaker 3: abandonment based wo abdomen based wounds. I almost had abandonment,

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, you know, in the stomach area, not deep

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Speaker 3: penetrating neck injuries, you know, to your head, to your neck,

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Speaker 3: or to your chest. They're typically in softer spots. It's

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Speaker 3: and again this is just statistics. It's not every case.

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Speaker 3: I'm certain there are cases where it does happen, but

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Speaker 3: not in every case. And by the way, and Joseph,

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Speaker 3: I have a question for you about this hesitation marks.

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Speaker 3: One of the things in the Medical Examiner's new report

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Speaker 3: is that she said that she found hesitation marks when

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Speaker 3: it comes to Ellen Greenberg. And in this new report

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Speaker 3: that you know, ruled it a suicide once again. And

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Speaker 3: I did some research over the weekend. And hesitation marks

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Speaker 3: can be left even when it's intentional. Is that correct?

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Speaker 4: Because almost testing the waters, if you will, Yeah, because

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Speaker 4: you know, I think, well, we'll see this with self

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Speaker 4: inflicted gunshot one as well. They'll be testifiring of weapons,

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Speaker 4: which always sends a chill if everyone's spawned when that happens,

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Speaker 4: and you'll go in and it's almost as if when

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Speaker 4: someone is looking to take their life. They want to

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Speaker 4: see if this is going to be effective, and how

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Speaker 4: are you going to measure this? You know, But I

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Speaker 4: got to tell you, relative to Ellen's case, one of

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Speaker 4: the things. Let me just frame this out from an

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Speaker 4: academic standpoint. Okay, we'll start there. When you consider her case,

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Speaker 4: all of us went to forensic academic meeting and we

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Speaker 4: had never heard the name Ellen Greenberg. Her case, had

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Speaker 4: it occurred somewhere else, would be presented at this academic meeting.

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Speaker 4: You'd be talking to a packed house. Because that's how

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Speaker 4: rare this is. In my practice as a death investigator,

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Speaker 4: I've handled to and I've said this on multiple platforms

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Speaker 4: and only one. Only one was a legitimate one That

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Speaker 4: was a male that was an ahnominal stab one. The

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Speaker 4: other one again a poor fellow who paranoid schizophrenia, thought

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Speaker 4: he had a microphone in his arm. See a had

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Speaker 4: put it in there and he was looking for the microphone.

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Speaker 4: That's really you know, if you want to talk about stabbing,

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Speaker 4: I've had cutting, you know, with razor blades and those

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Speaker 4: sorts of things. But this is this is a completely

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Speaker 4: different creature here. This is such an outlier, and I'm

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Speaker 4: so Glad. The statistics that you guys came up with

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Speaker 4: on this case are amazing because it really does demonstrate,

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Speaker 4: you know, first off, the difference between preferences I think

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Speaker 4: relative to gender, and secondly how rare this event is

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Speaker 4: and the fact that lightning struck at this moment time. Oh,

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Speaker 4: by the way, when she's standing at the sink and

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Speaker 4: cutting up fruit salad, so you've got this all laid

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Speaker 4: out on the counter, you're making a meal, and then

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Speaker 4: all of a sudden, it just overcomes you to do

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Speaker 4: this to yourself.

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Speaker 6: And you know, Joseph, just for those listening who may

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Speaker 6: not be up to speed on the case, because we

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Speaker 6: kind of jumped into it after the talk back. Ellen Greenberg,

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Speaker 6: a twenty seven year old first grade teacher, was found

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Speaker 6: dead with twenty stab wounds in her Philadelphia apartment in

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Speaker 6: January twenty eleven. It was initially ruled a homicide by

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Speaker 6: the medical examiner, but weeks later that ruling was controversially

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Speaker 6: changed to suicide following a private meeting with police, halting

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Speaker 6: any criminal investigation and igniting a year's long fight by

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Speaker 6: her parents to challenge the conclusion. So that's where we stand.

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Speaker 2: With it and her parents have given everything just to

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Speaker 2: jump in. Her parents really have put their lives on

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Speaker 2: the line, right financially speaking, to continue this conversation to

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Speaker 2: the extent that they have, and Joseph, you have lived

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Speaker 2: it on the front line, You're very close with the family,

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Speaker 2: just to keep.

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Speaker 3: Their daughter's spirit alive.

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Speaker 2: We are not discounting, by the way, and I just

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Speaker 2: think it's worth saying, you know, mental illness, anyone struggling

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Speaker 2: with mental illness and suicide. This is a real thing, right,

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Speaker 2: So there are factors that come into it, and we

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Speaker 2: are not making assertions that are with a broad a

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Speaker 2: broad brush, if you will. But this one's particularly troubling

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Speaker 2: because the forensics they just do not make sense. They

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Speaker 2: do not make sense her a mental background. And by

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Speaker 2: the way, I think we can all speak to the

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Speaker 2: fact that sometimes somebody's mental state maybe beyond the scope

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Speaker 2: of what we get to see in a person's life.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes things are happening behind closed doors or privately that

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Speaker 2: we don't know, right, So I think it's worth saying

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Speaker 2: though that on its nose, Ellen in a relationship, she

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Speaker 2: was engaged, she was a school teacher. She had some

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Speaker 2: anxiety about school, but nothing I mean get in line

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Speaker 2: for if we raise your hand by the way mine

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Speaker 2: is raised. If you have anxiety, you know we're gathered

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Speaker 2: here tonight on a Sunday night. Who doesn't have a

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Speaker 2: Sunday night blues. That's why I love this job so much,

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Speaker 2: because we get to have our Sunday nights together where

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Speaker 2: we don't have to be like stressing about tomorrow. We

434
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 2: get to be here. Not everybody has that. So mental

435
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: illness also aside, the forensics don't make sense.

436
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 3: So it's important to talk about that, Stephan, And I'm

437
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 3: so glad you brought it up. So the claim is

438
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 3: that Ellen was experiencing severe anxiety and stress prior to

439
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 3: her death. Right possibly it was exascerbated by her medication

440
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 3: changes because she was recently reported to be prescribed zoloft,

441
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 3: which is you know, an SSRI for depression, and klonomopin,

442
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 3: which is an anti anxiety medication, and her doctor noted

443
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: that she had increased anxiety and possible early signs of

444
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 3: depression in the weeks leading up to her death. And

445
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 3: some people are theorizing that you know this which she

446
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 3: had a reaction to the medication, and it's called akathisia.

447
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 3: It's called akathesia or psychotic breaks that it could explain

448
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 3: an impulsive, violent act of self harm. However, the counterpoint

449
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 3: to that is that mental health struggles are common. They're

450
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 3: not you know, it's not like a rare thing. And

451
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 3: the extreme nature of Ellen's wounds she had twenty stab wounds,

452
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 3: ten to the back of her head.

453
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, so both things are true. Let's assume that she

454
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: was having anxiety. It's extreme things, right, like, get in line. Yeah,

455
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 2: that both things can be true, right. I almost want

456
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: to put the anxiety aside for one second and again

457
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: to minimize it because it's very real, very real, and

458
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: everybody is going through their own version of that, and

459
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 2: we're all trying to find our tools. So maybe she

460
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: was switching up medications, et cetera. And men listen, mental

461
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: illness is a real thing, So let's put that aside.

462
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 3: It's the wounds that's the counterpoint.

463
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: That's where the that's where you get kind of loss

464
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: in the sauce from making an argument about this being suicide.

465
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 3: It doesn't even seem plausible.

466
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 4: No, no, you know it really doesn't.

467
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 6: Is it possible to stab yourself in the back?

468
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 4: Well, you know, that's that's one of the big, the

469
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,719
Speaker 4: big questions, right, and many of us have said that

470
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 4: it's bo mechanically impossible. It's an improbability that she would

471
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 4: be able to do it. Maybe you could do it

472
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 4: a couple of times, but you're talking about you're talking

473
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 4: about over and over and over again with ten and

474
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 4: some people have even stated that some of these wounds

475
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 4: are communicating ones, which means it's hard to delineate between

476
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 4: two separate defects because they're overlapping. Here's another injury that

477
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 4: people don't really talk a lot about, and I can't

478
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 4: really call it a stab one. She's got a very

479
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 4: nasty laceration on the back of her skull, of her

480
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 4: head that is full thickness. That means it goes down

481
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 4: to the skull.

482
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: Can we sit there for one second? I almost don't

483
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 2: want to go further, Joseph, I'm jumping in here a

484
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 2: little bit hot. That laceration, I think is a real

485
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: sticking point. And again I'm not the expert. God knows

486
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: you are. And by the way, if you're just jumping

487
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: in this is true crime tonight.

488
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: I'm staff. I'm here with body.

489
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan Taha, Sam and Adam in it for

490
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: our Scientific Sunday. But we're talking about the Ellen Greenberg case.

491
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: A really significant ruling has come down this week being

492
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: deemed a suicide when so many things would point to otherwise.

493
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: It's also the subject of our True Crime and Chill.

494
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: Even the title true Crime and Chill sounds very glib

495
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: compared to it word. This is so serious, so serious.

496
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: It is not a it's not a simple watch, and

497
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: we only would encourage you to watch it fully. And

498
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: what wild timing by the way, that this is out

499
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: right now on Netflix.

500
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: Wild this is happening real times.

501
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: That's incredibly interesting. Also just you know, you know, from

502
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: the heavens above perhaps, but Joseph Scott Morgan is really

503
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: breaking down what seems to be very obvious forensics that

504
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: last the head trauma, the laceration to the head, Joseph

505
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: without any more ado.

506
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, the length of it, I think, and the depth

507
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 4: as well, you know, and you know, if anyone has

508
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 4: ever sustained some kind of lacerating head injury, you know

509
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 4: your head bleeds profusely. And it's because our head is

510
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 4: so vascular. The brain, by the way, is the most

511
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 4: vascular organ in the body, so you have this blood

512
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 4: supply that's headed upwards and when you see this injury,

513
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 4: it would be if you've ever even bumped your head.

514
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 4: Now talk about pain centers firing all the time with

515
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 4: these stab wounds, But if you've ever even bumped your head,

516
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 4: and now you've got that, We're not just talking about

517
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 4: simple bump, right, We're talking about a lengthy laceration slash

518
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 4: cut that is a full thickness cut that goes down

519
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 4: to the skull, through the thickness of the skin and

520
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 4: the overlying tissue. And it's really overwhelming when you begin

521
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 4: to think about it. So it's impossible for us, Contrary

522
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 4: to what people think in these cases, we're we're doing

523
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 4: examination to actually sequence wounds. I think a lot of

524
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 4: people think that we can look and say this happened first,

525
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 4: this happened second. Oh right, you can't do that. You

526
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 4: can't do that. That's very difficult to do.

527
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: And Joseph, I have a DM that I would like

528
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 3: to read, and because it's addressed to you, it says

529
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 3: DM from Kate. Kate is learning Kate, Thank you for

530
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 3: the DM. Joseph Scott Morgan is an amazing guest speaker,

531
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: love your Sunday episodes. What does he think of the

532
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 3: Ellen case? The quote unquote suicide that seems so clearly

533
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 3: obvious to be a murder, I mean stab wounds to

534
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 3: the back of head, neck and spine. Like what, thank

535
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 3: you so much Kate for that.

536
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 8: So I kind of read it how I think she

537
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 8: wrote it, wrote it because it says like, what, So

538
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 8: what do you think, Joseph, Like, I mean, I kind

539
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 8: of know your feelings on this, but break it down

540
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 8: for the audience.

541
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 6: What do you think?

542
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 4: Hey, Kate, thanks for DM and appreciate it. And yeah, Boddie,

543
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 4: I gotta tell you. Okay, here's what I think. Why

544
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 4: is it that theme would be so compelled in order

545
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 4: to jump the homicide immediately they went with their gut

546
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 4: on it, and they went with what was scientifically verifiable

547
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 4: for them at that particular time. So what is it

548
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: after the meeting it was not documented. We just know

549
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 4: it happened, But what what happened in order to, you know,

550
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 4: take all of this scientific knowledge and your your assessment

551
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 4: abilities that you've been holding low these many years. All

552
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 4: of a sudden you have this epiphantal moment where you're

553
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 4: going to change this. That's what I think about it.

554
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 4: I don't understand it. I need that part explained to me.

555
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 6: It was for people.

556
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 4: Kind of meeting with a DA and a chief of

557
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 4: a police officer. It's going to change your mind all

558
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 4: of a sudden.

559
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 6: You know.

560
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 3: It's for people who don't know Joseph. So what happened

561
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 3: was it was initially ruled homicide after her after after

562
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: her death, it was initially ruled a homicide, and then

563
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 3: there was some kind of like clandestine meeting between the

564
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 3: DA and the police. Right is that right?

565
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: Am?

566
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: I following? Okay? And that and then it was like

567
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,959
Speaker 3: a week later and then at that moment, the medical

568
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 3: examiner changed the manner of death to suicide. How often

569
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 3: does that happens?

570
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 4: Rarely? Rarely do you have homicides become suicides. I've had

571
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 4: cases where suicides have become homicides. Sure, And I tell

572
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 4: you what, on Scientific Sunday sometime we're gonna do an

573
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 4: entire segment on stage and death.

574
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 3: Let's do it, okay, because I think that's what happened here,

575
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 3: by the way.

576
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 4: With that said, with that said, you rarely get this,

577
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 4: and you know, for there was a period of time

578
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 4: if I'm not misremembering here that they lingered on the

579
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 4: idea of this being an undetermined for a while as well.

580
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 4: So we've got we've only got five manners of death

581
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 4: to choose from. Guys, you hit on three of them,

582
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 4: you know you're gonna roll the dice on the other too.

583
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 4: I don't know, It's just that again, is one of

584
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 4: these things that's so befuddling about this entire case is

585
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 4: that you've got people jumping from left to the right

586
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 4: foot and now all of a sudden, we've decided with

587
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 4: this new document that's been published that we're solid now

588
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 4: we're going to call this a suicide.

589
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 6: At this point, So IM going. I know, Joseph, you

590
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 6: looked at the document. I'm just curious that was there

591
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 6: anything new that you saw in it, or did anything

592
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 6: stand out that maybe gives you more insight into what's

593
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 6: happened or no.

594
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, that it almost feels like

595
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 4: a doubling die down on the evidence as opposed, because

596
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 4: she's found more stab and she's also stating there's more bruises.

597
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 6: Now correct, more bruises Okay, yeah.

598
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so or contusions and I just you know, again,

599
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 4: I'm thinking, Okay, so we've got more evidence of violence here,

600
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 4: and you know you're saying this, but yet you're still

601
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 4: saying this, this is suicide.

602
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: Can we start there for one second? So this more

603
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 2: evidence of maybe some contusions or bruising that may have

604
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: happened in and around this time. Does that speak to

605
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: the fact that maybe she was in an abusive scenario

606
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: somewhere in her life.

607
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 4: I can't speak to Ellen's situation, but I know that

608
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 4: bruising and contusions are a measure for what we use

609
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 4: with any abuse case, whether it's involving adults, but particularly

610
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 4: as it applies to children, because it's it's the roadmap

611
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 4: relative to aging of an event somebody that's been in

612
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 4: dwelling in an environment for a protracted period of time

613
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 4: where they're subject to abuse. Contusions are one of the ways.

614
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 4: It's like our little roadmap, you know, because of all

615
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 4: stages of healing that an individual goes through with contusions, right,

616
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 4: and so you get you know, we can literally we

617
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 4: call them fresh fresh, fresh injuries, fresh bruises, fresh contusions,

618
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 4: and then we have these that are aged out. You

619
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 4: know where we're going and all of us can identify

620
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 4: with this because we get those funky looking, you know,

621
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 4: green contusions that are resolving the nasty yellow color that's

622
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 4: resolving until it's completely gone, and so you would you

623
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 4: grade those as you go through the process. And also

624
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 4: what's very important here is location. And one of the

625
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 4: questions I asked early on with both Sandy and Josh

626
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 4: when I was talking to them, I asked him, does

627
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 4: did Ellen have any problems with equilibrium? Because that's a

628
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 4: that's a legitimate question. I want to know.

629
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: I'm always stop bruising. Yeah, I'm raised everywhere all the time.

630
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: However that's because I'm klutzy, right. Is it possible that

631
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: there was some place in her life from morning till night,

632
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 2: who knows, whatever her daily life was, that would cause

633
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 2: some level of bruising like this? Is that an indication

634
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 2: of something bigger or a larger story?

635
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 4: Potentially, that's a good question. Also, one of the other questions,

636
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 4: just in case anybody's wondering about this, I asked, I'll

637
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 4: also ask about did she have any use with clotting factors?

638
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 4: You know, because you know things people that are impacted

639
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 4: and God bless you to do people that are impacted

640
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 4: by clotting issues. Where you bruise very easily, and those

641
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 4: sorts of things, you know, the slightest little bump, you know,

642
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 4: can it can present like that? Right, it's an evidence

643
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 4: of impact. Whereas if you don't have these problems, then

644
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 4: you're not going to draw blood even you know, a

645
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 4: sub from a subdermal standpoint, you're not going to draw

646
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 4: blood where it's going to present like this, And so

647
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 4: that's another question I want to ask. And also was

648
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 4: she on any kind of medications of blood center, was

649
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 4: she taking too many aspirin or anything like this that

650
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 4: could contribute to this? And the answers, you know, to

651
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 4: the best of my knowledge, at least, we're definitively.

652
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 3: No, there's no external things.

653
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: There's no medications that we could point to that would

654
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: suggest that any of this new bruising or any of

655
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 2: the issues that may have been underlying are.

656
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 3: Big, right or obvious?

657
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: No, and the likelihood of somebody maybe stabbing themselves this

658
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 2: many times and again I have a little inside scoop

659
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 2: here because I talked to Joseph so often about cases,

660
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: this one specifically that he's covered so deeply, and again

661
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 2: it gets wrapped up in like mental illness.

662
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 3: Okay, So these are really big topics.

663
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: That I even hesitate to dance around, right, because it

664
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 2: touches so many things. But for a young woman who's

665
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 2: having a very happy life, even though she's anxious. She's

666
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: a school teacher, she has a very anxious job, those

667
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: wounds do not seem to be in line with the

668
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: lifestyle that she has been living, right, And there does

669
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 2: seem to be some bruising, et cetera, which might And again,

670
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: this is now I'm saying this not this is not

671
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: based on anything. Sometimes people who are experiencing abuse behind

672
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 2: closed doors are the last to say it out loud

673
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 2: because it's really embarrassing and you don't think somebody will

674
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: believe you, or you don't want to out the person

675
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 2: who's doing that.

676
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 3: And and there's a lot of air. There's a lot

677
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 3: of shame attached, right, that's a shame.

678
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about shame at the mars Coore level, Like

679
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: how could somebody is so smart and so bright, from

680
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: such a great family be succumbed to this? And what

681
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 2: will they think? So is it possible that there was

682
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: maybe more of a fabric there? Again, we're not, we're not.

683
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: We don't want to put disparaging thoughts on anyone in

684
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 2: her world.

685
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 3: However, the forensics don't make sense, and.

686
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 6: So much of us it's still such a mystery. And

687
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 6: to your point, Stephanie, if maybe there was some sort

688
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 6: of situation in the past, we don't even we can't

689
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 6: even look at her computer, laptop, all those things to

690
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 6: even see did she keep a record of, like a

691
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 6: diary of like all horrific things that were going on

692
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 6: that was all taken away by If I'm not mistaken,

693
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 6: someone can correct me. But I think it was family

694
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 6: members of the I don't think I can even say

695
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 6: alleged victim. I mean, I alleged. I forget Sam's last

696
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 6: name Sam. Just good correctance, so right, It's it's really

697
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 6: disturbing on so many levels.

698
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 3: This is true crime today, and I heard Rader, we're

699
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 3: talking true crime all the time, or right in the

700
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 3: middle of talking about the Ellen Greenberg case and the

701
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 3: controversy that is surrounding the new medical Examiner's finding ruling

702
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: this as a suicide. Once again, I wanted to talk

703
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 3: about the hesitation wounds and if you want to weigh in,

704
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:45,399
Speaker 3: give us a call. At eighty to eight thirty one

705
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 3: Crime I mentioned hesitation wounds in the previous segment, and

706
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 3: the medical examiner is saying a lot of the wounds,

707
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 3: you know, we say twenty, right, and she is saying

708
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 3: that most of them are hesitation wounds. They're not deep,

709
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 3: they're superficial. So when we say twenty wounds, I'm imagining,

710
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, all these deep wounds. Well, she is

711
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 3: saying that they're mostly hesitation wounds, which is, if you

712
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 3: know you are possibly committing suicide by stabbing, it's likely

713
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 3: that you would have hesitation wounds, however, or the person

714
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 3: that's what I would have hesitation, That's what I'm saying. Yeah,

715
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: like the familiarity with your victim can bring on hesitation wounds. Joseph,

716
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 3: have you ever in your you know, a very lovely career,

717
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 3: You've done this thousands of times. Have you ever come

718
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 3: across a homicide where the victim and the suspect we're

719
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 3: familiar with one another and there were hesitation wounds like this?

720
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, And to use the term hesitation is is that

721
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 4: the contextualize that because it's it's that's associated with suicide,

722
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 4: And again that goes to paint the narrative of suicide. Okay,

723
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 4: because someone has to hesitate, and the person hesitating is

724
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 4: the victim, and the victim has been now identified as

725
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 4: a victim of suicide, which is self harm. So I

726
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 4: have seen hesitation wounds on individuals, and you know, categorically

727
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 4: it's always sharp force. Generally it is a slice as

728
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 4: opposed to a stab. I have not seen these wounds

729
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 4: identified necessarily as incized wounds, which are generally classified as

730
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 4: slices in sized or stab wound. Stab wounds rather are

731
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 4: puncturing wounds. Okay, now you know what I have seen

732
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 4: with sharp force injuries, with homicides. I've seen people tortured

733
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 4: with the tip.

734
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 6: Of a knife.

735
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 4: And so I've seen that happen over the course of

736
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 4: my career, where people have been taunted and yeah, okay,

737
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 4: if you want to go on that road, let's go

738
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 4: down it, you know, and kind of play this out, uh,

739
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 4: play this out, you know, Okay. Intellectually, you know, you

740
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 4: begin to think about, well, if if hesitation is our reality,

741
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 4: well what about you know what many people think that

742
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 4: it's a homicide, because yeah, some of these are in

743
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 4: fact superficial and I'll go, you know, to a great depth,

744
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,439
Speaker 4: and not every single one of them are like that, right,

745
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 4: So I think that you have to factor that in

746
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 4: as well.

747
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 3: Wow, And you know, I think it is important to

748
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 3: remember too that familiarity can make these quote unquote you know,

749
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to use this term very loosely now that

750
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 3: I've been educated on it. Hesitation wounds that you know, uh,

751
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 3: if if you know somebody and you want to stab them,

752
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: let's say there's some sort of argument, you might not

753
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 3: be into it as much at first, and there might

754
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 3: be some kind of hesitation. I think that's what I'm

755
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 3: trying to say. It's scary, it is horrible.

756
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 4: But at what point in time view begin does the

757
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 4: individual begin to to sensitize themselves to that where they

758
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 4: can finally, you know, go ahead and take that leap.

759
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 4: I've never seen point this many insults to a body

760
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 4: of this nature where you can correlate this. Now they're

761
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 4: out there, don't misconstrue what I'm saying. There are cases

762
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 4: out there that have multiple stab wounds in them, and

763
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 4: they are in fact an individual that has done self harm. Okay,

764
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 4: but again I go back to my to my earlier statement,

765
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 4: those are by far, by far, y'all the exception as

766
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 4: opposed to the rule, and you really have to take

767
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 4: the long view on this relative to this. And here's

768
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 4: the other thing. And I know that this is just

769
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 4: burrowing into people's minds right now. I know it because

770
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 4: I've there's not a single case I've gotten more DMS

771
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:00,760
Speaker 4: on than this particular period. Oh yeah, by far. They're

772
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 4: asking what choices do the green Bergs happen?

773
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 7: Now?

774
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 6: Yeah?

775
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 4: Right, just let that sink in. They fought this fight

776
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 4: for so long. Where do they go now? Because you know,

777
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 4: I think they've both been quoted to say, at least

778
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 4: Josh has I believe that they feel like they've been

779
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 4: punched kicked in the stomach. That's where they are in

780
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,919
Speaker 4: their minds right now, because they fought this good fight

781
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 4: for so long. Well, where where do you go now?

782
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 4: You know, this is not a judicial ruling that was

783
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 4: made just so alps understand this. This is a medical

784
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 4: legal ruling. This is not of the courts, right, so

785
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 4: we have to keep that in mind as well.

786
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 6: Well.

787
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 3: I guess the next thing would be federal some sort

788
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 3: of federal investigation. But in order to get that to happen,

789
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 3: don't they have to prove some kind of conspiracy happened

790
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 3: with you know, the Emmy or the police or the

791
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: DA And I don't know kind.

792
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 4: Of official malfeasons because there's some side statute, you know, for

793
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 4: the FED, right, so that's that's problematic. I don't know

794
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 4: where they go for satisfaction at this point.

795
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 3: Well keep it here on True Crime Tonight, we're going

796
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 3: to be doing Crime Lab. We're so excited. Joseph is

797
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 3: going to tell us all the things about how you

798
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 3: can tell when somebody died. Keep it right here, True

799
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 3: Crime Tonight.

800
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Stephanie

801
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: Leidecker and I head of Katie Studios, where we make

802
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 2: true crime podcasts and documentaries.

803
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 3: We're doing a podcast.

804
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 2: Right now called In Cells, and we hope you guys

805
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 2: will check it out, as well as the final season

806
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: of The Idaho Massacre, which has done this incredible job

807
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 2: of going through all of the information that we really

808
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: didn't have access to until now because you know, as

809
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 2: you know, Boddy Brian Coburger, you know, pled guilty and

810
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 2: therefore a lot of the documents that we would have

811
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:04,439
Speaker 2: seen in trial have now been released. So knee deep

812
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: in that body are so great on both of these projects.

813
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: And by the way, Courtney's not with us tonight. She

814
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 2: has the evening off and hopefully she's having a great one.

815
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 3: But taha, jumping in, jumping in in the hot seat

816
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 3: row on Scientific Sunday with Joseph Scott Morgan, who is

817
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 3: our beloved forensics expert and also the host of the

818
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 3: hit podcast body Bags.

819
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: Who is you know, carving ot time and his very

820
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 2: busy schedule to be with us to talk about so

821
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 2: many things. By the way, if you want to join

822
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 2: the Conversation live, please do eight eight eight three one crime.

823
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: You could also leave us a talkback, hit us up

824
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 2: on our socials, or you could also past a body

825
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:52,959
Speaker 2: like I'm going to do right now.

826
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 3: Yes, So this is one that Joseph actually brought to

827
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 3: our attention. So we're kind of learning about this together,

828
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 3: all right, let's this is this is an experiment. We're

829
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 3: learning about this case together, like it So, Joseph Nawakowski,

830
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 3: he was a career criminal. He died in nineteen ninety eight,

831
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 3: so you know many years ago he died. He has

832
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 3: been definitively identified as the man who brutally raped, tortured,

833
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 3: and murdered Catherine Blackburn in nineteen sixty four. And this

834
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 3: is one of New York's oldest cold cases. And this

835
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 3: has been solved through preserved evidence and modern forensic genealogy.

836
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 3: So on September thirteenth of nineteen sixty four, fifty year

837
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 3: old Katherine Blackburn, she's my age, I'm identifying with her already.

838
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 3: She was savagely attacked in her Albany home. She was

839
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 3: showing her apartment to potential renters. So imagine she places

840
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 3: an ad in the newspaper. Likely you know, back then,

841
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 3: I'm renting out my apartment. These people come and she

842
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 3: is savagely attacked while doing this. Okay, oh my god, terrible.

843
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 3: So she was raped, bludgeoned, stabbed, and burned with heated knives,

844
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 3: ultimately dying from blood loss.

845
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:17,439
Speaker 6: So so sad.

846
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 3: So despite preserved physical events and early leads, the case

847
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 3: went cold for sixty one years. And obviously her family

848
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 3: has been devastated by this and stumping generations of investigators.

849
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 3: So I mean, this case has been sitting in the

850
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 3: police you know, headquarters for sixty years. Like how many

851
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 3: generations of detectives have picked up her file count? I mean,

852
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 3: like probably six. Right, it's very sad. So he was

853
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 3: officially named as her killer just recently in October twenty

854
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 3: twenty five. A breakthrough came in twenty eighteen, when detective

855
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 3: you know these spry detectives, I love it. Detective Melissa

856
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 3: Maury picked up that folder. She reopened the case and

857
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 3: partnered with doctor Christina Lane of the Cold Case Analysis Center.

858
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 3: All Right, using preserved crime scene evidence, a DNA match

859
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 3: was made between Nawakowski and a handkerchief found under her

860
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 3: body at the crime scene. So Nawakowski's body was exhumed

861
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 3: in September under a court order to obtain a DNA sample,

862
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 3: which confirmed the match. Authorities emphasized that Blackburn and Nawakowski

863
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 3: were strangers and that the attack was a total random

864
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 3: act of violence. Nawakowski he was thirty seven at the

865
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 3: time of the murder, and he had a violent criminal history,

866
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 3: including a nineteen seventy three assault on an elderly woman.

867
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 3: So like, nine years later he assaults another elderly woman. Right,

868
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 3: this is like a serial predator on the loose, A

869
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 3: serial predator for elderly elderly what kind of sicko?

870
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 4: Right?

871
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 3: Seven Joseph is right now, so hopped up in his

872
00:50:58,239 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 3: chair and taw.

873
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 6: We're all we're all like, yeah, it's just it's horrible

874
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 6: to hear this because I'm forendsic questions for Joseph.

875
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 3: I know.

876
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 6: So.

877
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 3: Family members, including nieces Sandra Carmichael and Mary Anne Simmered,

878
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 3: spoke at a press conference, calling the identification a miracle

879
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 3: and long awaited moment of peace. I mean, I can't

880
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 3: imagine how they must feel, their aunts or you know,

881
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 3: their grandmother, whoever they were to her, like, it's just

882
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 3: so sad. So they got some answers.

883
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, her, this is her niece. Let me give you

884
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 4: a time frame here. Okay, the niece actually went to

885
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 4: the house the victim's sister because she hadn't reported work.

886
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,919
Speaker 4: She she worked in a brush factory by the way,

887
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 4: and she had rental. She's she was yeah, yeah, and

888
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 4: she was an entrepreneur, you know, and loved everywhere, was

889
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 4: really active in her church, very devout. The niece that

890
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 4: was there when this poor woman was discovered was twenty

891
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 4: when she was discovered. She got at the lectern when

892
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 4: they did this announcement. She's eighty one. Now, wow, just

893
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 4: let that sink in just for a second. Yeah, so

894
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 4: this has been a long time coming. As you can imagine,

895
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 4: the family finally, you know, has received some kind of resolution.

896
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 4: But the way the story kind of played out was

897
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 4: the fact that she was literally on the phone with

898
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 4: family and she said, oh, there's a knock at the door.

899
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 4: There's a knock at the door. I've got to go.

900
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 4: And so she hangs up and you can imagine cradles

901
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 4: cradles the phone on the old rotary doll phone and

902
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 4: goes to the door, opens the door, and there stands

903
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 4: Satan before her right and her room she was renting

904
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 4: was upstairs, so they had to walk up the stairs

905
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 4: and that's where she was attacked. Yeah, and the torch

906
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 4: that this poor lady went through for a protracted period

907
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 4: of time, they're thinking hours at that particular time. As

908
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 4: a matter of fact, the corner at he made a

909
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 4: statement way back then that this was a sadistic maniac

910
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 4: that did this, because I can only imagine they'd never

911
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 4: seen anything like this. She was bludgeoned, she was stabbed,

912
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 4: she was cut and in addition to that, whoever this

913
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 4: guy that was a perpetrator, he heated these knives on

914
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 4: the stove, and the stove was downstairs, so he was

915
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 4: having to travel downstairs and reheat these And here's the

916
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 4: really fascinating part to this very morbid he was creating

917
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 4: and they never say what kind he was creating designs

918
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 4: on her body. Oh and like patterns with the heated

919
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 4: tip of a knife. And so this is something that

920
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 4: he was enjoy But he made the big mistake because

921
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 4: he did, in fact sexually assault her. And this DNA

922
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 4: sample that he left behind, and again a tip of

923
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,399
Speaker 4: the cap to the Albany police in this particular case,

924
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 4: because they preserved they preserved this very fragile evidence. Uh,

925
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 4: they found this handkerchief and it had seminal deposition on it,

926
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 4: which is a very rich source of DNA. And you know,

927
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 4: back then, let me take you back in time, just

928
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 4: real quick. Yeah, back during that period of time, the

929
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 4: only thing that we could do in forensics, and even

930
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 4: not too long ago when I first started in the field,

931
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 4: we couldn't do DNA. We relied on blood topping and

932
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 4: had siminal deposition or saliva. You're hoping that the perpetrator

933
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 4: that left us behind was what's referred to as a

934
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 4: secretor because there is a certain percentage of the population

935
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:02,720
Speaker 4: that segrete secretes red blood cells into saliva any number

936
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 4: of bodily fluids, and you could type the blood. But

937
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 4: even if you can't type it all right, ABO you know,

938
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 4: blood typing, you're very limited. I mean you're very very limited.

939
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 4: Even the rarest blood I think is abab neg right,

940
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 4: And so that's that spectrum is very very negative, very narrow.

941
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 4: It's like, I don't know the numbers. Very in the past,

942
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 4: it's been like one in one hundred and forty nine people,

943
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 4: one in one hundred and forty nine people, I think,

944
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 4: or one hundred and sixty four or one one sixty four.

945
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 4: But when you begin to talk about DNA, you're talking

946
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 4: about billions, one in a billion, all right, But.

947
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 6: That's like from the sixties, Like, what condition does DNA

948
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 6: have to be into? Less? I didn't expect you to

949
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 6: be able to store evidence for such a long period

950
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 6: of time with DNA? Is that common?

951
00:55:56,040 --> 00:56:00,399
Speaker 4: Or is that most people can't going back on That's

952
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 4: why that's why this is such an amazing case and

953
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 4: the Preyers such a fantastic job, because you realize how

954
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 4: many floods, fires, changes in humidity, all those sorts of

955
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 4: things have happened. How many times has this piece of

956
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 4: evidence been transferred to another evidence locker or to a

957
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 4: new building perhaps since they had Do you think the

958
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 4: Albany police have the same evidence room that they had

959
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty four? Maybe they do. I have no idea,

960
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 4: but if I were a betting dude, I would say

961
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 4: probably not. Probably the fact that it survived and this

962
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 4: woman they finally have answers. I think the most bizarre

963
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 4: thing about this case is the fact that they exhumed perpetrator.

964
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 4: This is not a matter of trying to find somebody

965
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 4: that you know, find out who they are that's been

966
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 4: down for a long time, where you're trying to get

967
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 4: their identity. Now you're trying to get the perpetrator's identity,

968
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 4: and they dug him up.

969
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 3: This is true from tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

970
00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 3: crime all the time. Right in the middle of discussing

971
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 3: this kind of miracle breakthrough in a case the case

972
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 3: of Catherine Blackburn. If you want to weigh and give

973
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 3: us a call eighty eight thirty one crime, this is

974
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 3: pretty interesting. In doing my research to present this tonight,

975
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 3: I read about the police chief of Albany, and because

976
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 3: I really did think this was kind of astounding that

977
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 3: they preserved this so well for sixty one years, that

978
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 3: they were able to make this breakthrough. And again this

979
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 3: detective picking up that folder, that's all it took, right,

980
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 3: a fresh set of eyes. I just I love these

981
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 3: kinds of stories. I really do. So the police chief,

982
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 3: his name is Brendan Cox, and he thanked the Blackburn

983
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 3: family for being so patient and you know they're perseverance

984
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 3: throughout the years, and I just kind of wanted to

985
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 3: tip my hat. And he said. One thing that he

986
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 3: said that really got to me was the way that

987
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 3: this murder happened. He really believes that this this suspect,

988
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 3: Joseph Kowawski, has done many other things like it was

989
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 3: so sadistic in nature, and they wanted to make sure.

990
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 3: So that's why they exhumed the body, because they did

991
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 3: this DNA match through familial tie. So they here's what

992
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 3: probably happened. I'm just gonna lay it out. They probably

993
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 3: found a cousin on ancestry or maybe another Codis hit,

994
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 3: you know, something like that where they were like, oh, okay,

995
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 3: this is the you know this DNA that we have

996
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 3: on this handkerchief belongs to this second cousin right here.

997
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 3: So they did a family tree, okay, but they wanted

998
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 3: to make sure because he was so sadistic, and they

999
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 3: want the other agencies to be able to run their

1000
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 3: DNA that they've got in their lockers against his DNA.

1001
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 3: So hats off to them, because listen, exooming the body, right, Joseph,

1002
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 3: this is a big deal.

1003
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 4: It is a big deal, and it's not easy to do.

1004
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 4: One thing that judges hate to do is they hate

1005
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 4: cracking open crip. That is just not their thing. They

1006
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 4: don't like it. They find it a bit on bored

1007
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 4: many times. And I understand why because just imagine if

1008
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 4: you had everybody in the world that thought that their

1009
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 4: loved one was a homicide victim, You're gonna have exhumations

1010
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 4: going on, you know, all over the place. If if

1011
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 4: judges were so inclined to crack crack graves open. So

1012
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 4: to get an order of exhamation is a big deal.

1013
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 4: I know. I always forgive me because I have soft

1014
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 4: spot in my heart, a soft spot in my heart

1015
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 4: for this. But I'm always reflective of the Tammy Davelle

1016
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 4: case mouth her exhamation to that conviction. That was a

1017
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 4: big deal, huge deal, and she was such a precious

1018
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 4: woman and it was just you know, and that you know,

1019
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 4: that's what can happen when this is positively you know,

1020
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 4: used in a positive manner, but yet and it in

1021
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 4: fascinated that your cousins somewhere can point the finger back

1022
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 4: at you if you've done something bad.

1023
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 6: Right.

1024
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 2: By the way, we also, you know, it was very

1025
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 2: painful and difficult, Joseph, when you and I started working

1026
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 2: together for the very first time on Murdered and Missing

1027
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 2: in Montana. It's a documentary that we were making.

1028
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 3: For Peak's one of my favorites.

1029
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 2: You know, missing and murdered indigenous young women.

1030
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 3: What an epidemic.

1031
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 2: So Henny Scott, we exhumed her body and it was

1032
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 2: during COVID and a really difficult task, right, you have

1033
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 2: to actually in this case, in Henny's case, may she

1034
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 2: rest in peace, and oh god, I think about her

1035
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 2: every day. We had to get permission for every single

1036
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 2: person who was buried around her to exhume her body.

1037
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 6: That's interesting surrounding.

1038
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, think about it.

1039
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 2: And by the way, until you're in that scenario, do

1040
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 2: you not think about it?

1041
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 3: But it kind of makes.

1042
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 2: Sense, right, you are disrupting soil, and you know, in

1043
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 2: this case, although it wasn't sacred ground air quotes, of

1044
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 2: course it is.

1045
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 3: It's a burial site.

1046
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 2: And we had to get verbal and written permission from

1047
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 2: anyone who was buried around her, which is something you

1048
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 2: don't think about, right, And people.

1049
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 4: Don't think about. Yeah, people don't think about the you know,

1050
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 4: kind of the kinetic impact. You know that you have

1051
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 4: all around an area where there's a body. And when

1052
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 4: I said beautiful a minute ago, I didn't mean the death.

1053
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 4: It's beautifully, as are all of the studios productions. It

1054
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 4: was just it's a gorgeous thing to watch. But yeah,

1055
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 4: the stories are so tragic in that case.

1056
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 3: Wow, And that is where your impact.

1057
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: It's been so great to get to play with you

1058
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 2: all the time on such extraordinary important cases.

1059
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 3: All Right, the school bell is ringing, guys, the school

1060
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 3: bell is ringing. It's crime Lab and Joseph is going

1061
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 3: to break down how investigators pinpoint the time of death

1062
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 3: not be late for class, Professor Joseph session, keep it right, heir,

1063
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 3: True Crime Tonight, behun me.

1064
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 2: Very Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're

1065
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lydecker. I'm

1066
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 2: here with body Movin.

1067
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 3: Listen.

1068
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 2: Courtney is out for the evening and we miss her deeply.

1069
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 2: Hopefully she's having the best time and we'll fill us

1070
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 2: in all about it tomorrow. But listen, it's Scientific Sunday.

1071
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 2: So we have Joseph Scott Morgan jumping in, a host

1072
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 2: of the hit podcast body Bags, and he is going

1073
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 2: to do this thing with us. It's like a little

1074
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 2: news segment tah is there like a Q or is

1075
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 2: like a.

1076
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, like a little bit of a disco lamp, disco light.

1077
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 3: What happens?

1078
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 2: Something gloss because it's called crime Lab Dune dun dum

1079
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 2: crime Lab with Joseph Scott Morgan because we're all Professor

1080
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 2: Morgan please.

1081
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Is it like a which is actually true? Right?

1082
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's true, Professor Morgan.

1083
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, professor he's a professor of every single day of forensics.

1084
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1085
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's no joke. Just cut through flesh a

1086
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 3: week ago for the first.

1087
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 2: Time ever, passing out in the in the in the gab.

1088
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 4: My university has given me a gross lab now, so

1089
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 4: wows it is yea.

1090
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 3: Anatomy is gross. It is you know, that means like

1091
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 3: you have to slice into a human body. Learn they

1092
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 3: gave in science class, we had to do the pig dissection.

1093
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 3: I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I would

1094
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 3: never be able to. But how will you learn?

1095
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 2: Joseph isn't the way of guiding hand. He has the

1096
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 2: most extraordinary forensics lab. Imaginable people really do far and wide,

1097
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 2: go only to Joseph. That's important to be able to

1098
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 2: learn about just this. However, this is the things that

1099
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 2: we talk about offline that I'm going to share. However,

1100
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 2: at some point, imagine you're a student under Joseph's fine

1101
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 2: tutelage at the most extraordinary university and it's time to

1102
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 2: cut through flesh.

1103
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 6: Wow. Oh, I couldn't do it.

1104
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 3: I just couldn't know. People pass out students. It's super

1105
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 3: important work. It's very serious, there's no messing around. I personally,

1106
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 3: I think it takes heroes to do this kind of work.

1107
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 3: So thank you Joseph. I could not do it. I

1108
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 3: would literally pass out and throw up.

1109
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 6: I think you're.

1110
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 3: Supposed to, though, isn't.

1111
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 2: I think Joseph would say, actually, all of those responses

1112
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 2: are a human in a strong stomach, and that's actually

1113
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 2: really great they are.

1114
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 4: And here's here's the big thing is that we all,

1115
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 4: and this is something I've covered after many years being

1116
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 4: around the dead, and I had this. We all have

1117
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 4: an indwelling fear of death. Everybody does. It's hard to

1118
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 4: get past it. And contrary to what people believe. You know,

1119
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 4: kids right out of the police academy, they've never, for

1120
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 4: the lion's share of them, have never been around the dead.

1121
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 4: And you don't go to the at least in my area,

1122
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 4: you don't go to the morgue to see the dead.

1123
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 4: That just doesn't happen. So most of the time, if

1124
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 4: they're out on the beat, their first death call that

1125
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 4: they roll on as a police officer is going to

1126
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:42,240
Speaker 4: be the first dead body many of them have ever

1127
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 4: been around in their life. So what I do at

1128
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 4: Jack State is actually try to get through that membrane

1129
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 4: of fear, because you know, if you're fearful when you

1130
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 4: go out on a scene of the dead, you're not

1131
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 4: going to be an effective investment.

1132
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so you're going to be distracted person focus.

1133
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1134
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 3: And so that's the exposure therapy on a sense kind.

1135
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 6: Of it is.

1136
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 4: It is, and you know, you try to you break

1137
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 4: them in slowly, you know, and get them down there

1138
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 4: and then understand, Yeah, I've had some weakknees, but I

1139
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 4: was weakneed Uh, there's nobody, there are very few people

1140
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 4: you've come across that that don't experience that kind of

1141
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 4: unsteadiness and that sort of thing. And it's a foreign

1142
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 4: environment and you're terrified. Yeah, but once you understand what

1143
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 4: you're there for, and if you can purpose to that

1144
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,520
Speaker 4: and remind yourself of that, it makes it a lot easier.

1145
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 4: And it's and look, I'll tell anybody this that asked me,

1146
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 4: the best classroom I've ever been in my entire life

1147
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 4: was the time that I spent in an autopsy room.

1148
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 4: I learned more there that was applical in the field

1149
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 4: as a death investigator than I did in any classroom

1150
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 4: I ever sat in. So hopefully I'm passed along that

1151
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 4: information to the next generation, I think.

1152
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 2: And it's very sacred, right, So the things that we're

1153
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 2: talking about, even just this evening, right, we're talking about

1154
01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 2: very sacred information. So imagine, Joseph, is you know, desensitizing

1155
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 2: something that's so sensitive. Can you imagine being a first

1156
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 2: responder going to a death scene for the very first

1157
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 2: time and having to actually make a report without your

1158
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 2: emotions getting the best of you. It's close to impossible

1159
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 2: if you're a human being, which honestly, we want humans

1160
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 2: with real emotion doing all the things that we're talking about.

1161
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 2: So I would suspect if somebody rolls into Joseph's course

1162
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 2: and is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's cut into a

1163
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 2: dead body, that's probably a red flag. It's not the

1164
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 2: person who's struggling with it because they want to find

1165
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 2: the answers and it's very disregulating.

1166
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 3: I would imagine I need to.

1167
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:50,440
Speaker 4: Across several disturbing souls over the course of my career,

1168
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 4: so yeah, that they wanted the grotesque nature of it.

1169
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 4: And if that's what you're in it for, you're in

1170
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 4: it for the wrong reasons. And we personally we don't

1171
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 4: won't you in academia, but also also in the field

1172
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 4: as well, because it's just not appropriate. You don't need

1173
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 4: to have that mindset.

1174
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 3: Well, listen, I'm going to be ringing the school bells

1175
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 3: right now. Classes, session, class, ession, Sorry, bosses, it's my

1176
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 3: job to wrangle us, Okay, I'm doing. I'm wrangling good

1177
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 3: at it. I might add, wait, I'm putting on my

1178
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 3: vest if you want to weigh in in this conversation,

1179
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 3: we get a little off track with eight and eight

1180
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 3: thirty one crime or leave us a talk back on

1181
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app. We're going to get ready to get

1182
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:37,680
Speaker 3: into this determining time of death? Joseph, So, how do

1183
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 3: investigators this is a lesson, how do investigators determine the

1184
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 3: time of death?

1185
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:44,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're asking me a question. I'm going to ask

1186
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 4: everybody on the path question, what do you think? What

1187
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 4: is your default position when you begin to think, what,

1188
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 4: in fact, what's the primary manner in which we determine

1189
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,639
Speaker 4: what's referred to as pm I post more minial. Okay,

1190
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 4: Steph had her hand up first, go ahead, Okay.

1191
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 2: I was my We did literally all had our hands up,

1192
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 2: but mine was up first.

1193
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:08,799
Speaker 4: Okay.

1194
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 2: I believe that the manner of death, the time of

1195
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:17,759
Speaker 2: death rather, is determined by a first responder and given

1196
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 2: the environment, they kind of back based on Well, I'm

1197
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 2: getting stuck here already, but I well, look at you

1198
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 2: two show offs. Okay, I'm gonna I'm going to go

1199
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,839
Speaker 2: have to go to body. It's like, sorry, tah.

1200
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna imagine if you're writing unseen, you're looking

1201
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 3: at two things, rigor mortis and livertone. Okay, well that

1202
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 3: seems like so much smarter. This is learn on CSI

1203
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 3: Las Vegas.

1204
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was gonna say, I just

1205
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 2: thought the person who showed up with a clock.

1206
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 6: Right now, I'm just gonna put my done cap on early.

1207
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:58,920
Speaker 6: But I was gonna say temperature, like I would assume

1208
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:01,519
Speaker 6: temperature sure of a body would probably tell you.

1209
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:05,560
Speaker 4: Both of you aid yeah, so okay, so I'll go

1210
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,839
Speaker 4: in and say, yes, you're right. It's generally the default

1211
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:12,560
Speaker 4: position for most people, and it's literally the least reliable.

1212
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, temperature is because it is almost completely environmentally

1213
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 4: dependent and you have to assess this. This is not

1214
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:26,040
Speaker 4: something you can assess back at the more so it

1215
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 4: has to be assessed at the scene and body to

1216
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:34,680
Speaker 4: your to your comment, yeah, core uh, liver temperature or

1217
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 4: it's the densest organ in the body. All right, So

1218
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 4: there are people that are out there that do liver temperatures,

1219
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 4: and yes, it is precisely what you think. There is

1220
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 4: a thermometer that is inserted into the liver. However, that's

1221
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:52,759
Speaker 4: problematic because if you've got a case involving, say multiple

1222
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 4: stab wounds or multiple gunshot wounds, where you've got tracks

1223
01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 4: running all over the place, and this requires you to

1224
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:02,040
Speaker 4: actually make an incision in the body of that can

1225
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 4: you imagine doing in front of a crowd gathered outside

1226
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 4: and then you place an indwelling thermometer and you take

1227
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 4: the measurement. You also have to do environmental measurements environmental

1228
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 4: temperature measurements concurrently, and you do this over period of

1229
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 4: time to try to see if there's concurrence relative to

1230
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:25,120
Speaker 4: changes in environmental temperature and changes in body temperature. And

1231
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 4: it's a really heavy lift. I got towards the end

1232
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 4: of my career where I would do primarily this. The

1233
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 4: body is warm to the touch, the body is cool

1234
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 4: to the touch, and that's as far as I would

1235
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 4: go with it. So for me, it was always the

1236
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:43,200
Speaker 4: least reliable. And if you do it on one case,

1237
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 4: you have to do it on all cases because that's

1238
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 4: your primary assessment tool. So and it's problematic. You're having

1239
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 4: to undress the body at the scene, which is something

1240
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 4: you don't want to have to do. You're creating all

1241
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 4: kinds of headache. It's just the data that you get

1242
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 4: from it is worthless after you're out about twelve hours

1243
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 4: after oculating how you were jumping.

1244
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:11,840
Speaker 2: In with a question modulated a little bit. So just

1245
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 2: one quick second for.

1246
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 6: Your audio tour, the second to go back.

1247
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:16,639
Speaker 3: Ah, you had a question.

1248
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 2: By the way, I wish you could see Tah right

1249
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 2: now with his headset on and recently like hydrated face

1250
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:27,759
Speaker 2: facial by the way, We're also going to instill because

1251
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 2: scientific Sundays are are heavy, right and it's important because

1252
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:36,600
Speaker 2: and also many people are listening on Mondays as their podcast,

1253
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:40,480
Speaker 2: So we're going to do some like maybe some facials.

1254
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:42,880
Speaker 3: Can we get like a hydrating mask or.

1255
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 2: Something that we can I like this collagen masks, Yeah,

1256
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,799
Speaker 2: the collagen mask, Like we have to do our self

1257
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 2: care Sundays. While we talked about all these very difficult things,

1258
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:55,760
Speaker 2: you were dying.

1259
01:12:55,479 --> 01:12:58,760
Speaker 6: For a question of temperatures bodies, like maybe a nice warm,

1260
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 6: heated mask my question, and I think Joseph is back

1261
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 6: with us. I was just curious because I know we're

1262
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 6: just talking about body temperature. Do they take the temperature

1263
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 6: of bodies when you find one immediately? Like is that

1264
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,320
Speaker 6: one of the first things. Do they even do that again?

1265
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 4: And a lot of it's depended upon how soon you

1266
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 4: get to the body. I'm reflective of the Idaho four, Right,

1267
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:21,839
Speaker 4: that took a protracted period of time to the remain

1268
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:24,720
Speaker 4: and so by that time the data is a bit

1269
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:29,560
Speaker 4: skewed relative to body temperature. Now that does not exclude

1270
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 4: the other areas that we look in which I know,

1271
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 4: what what are the other two? Does anybody know primarily

1272
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:38,240
Speaker 4: that we can do it to scene?

1273
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:43,639
Speaker 3: I'll stay out. I mean, you know you can't stay out. Listen,

1274
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,719
Speaker 3: I'm not the teacher's pet. Okay, I don't want to be. Okay,

1275
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 3: body for the wind, go ahead, stomach contents. Yeah, probably,

1276
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:53,600
Speaker 3: but that's that's done at autopsy.

1277
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:57,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, we have to do that at autopsy on the scene.

1278
01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:01,080
Speaker 2: The scene on the scene, so we've already determined what

1279
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 2: the temperature of the human body is at that time.

1280
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 2: We're set saying maybe some blood splatter and some obvious

1281
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 2: indications of on the side, suicide, et cetera.

1282
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:17,480
Speaker 3: Right, is it possible that it's.

1283
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 6: But this is to determine the time of death, So

1284
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 6: I can't think of another factor out rigor We've.

1285
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 3: Got some more audio issues, but I'm going to fill

1286
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:30,799
Speaker 3: in for just a moment.

1287
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 6: For Joe out.

1288
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 3: So rigor mortis. It starts I think two to four

1289
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:41,920
Speaker 3: hours after you die. You start to like stiffen a

1290
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:45,160
Speaker 3: little bit. It keeps at like twelve hours and that's

1291
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:48,880
Speaker 3: when you're like really stiff. God, it fades again, like

1292
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 3: it takes a day and then it fades and you

1293
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 3: become loose. But then it comes back and it starts

1294
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 3: off in like the your jaw area first and then

1295
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 3: your limbs. So, for instance, let's say I don't know

1296
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 3: if we have Joseph back, because I might not have

1297
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 3: to speak here. Am I saying that right? Joseph? Yes,

1298
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 3: oh no, sorry, something is goofy.

1299
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:18,160
Speaker 6: It's like robot, a little audio issue. I have a

1300
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 6: strong feeling we might have to yeah, do this lesson

1301
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 6: another day.

1302
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 3: Well, no, I feel like we know where he's going.

1303
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 2: Is I'm going to just jump on a limb here,

1304
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:29,400
Speaker 2: if not to jump onto Joseph's head.

1305
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:31,880
Speaker 3: However, I feel as though I.

1306
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,759
Speaker 2: Spent a lot of time with it, so I believe

1307
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:37,599
Speaker 2: that if we're talking about the matt And by the way, Joseph,

1308
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:39,439
Speaker 2: I know you you're looking at me right now.

1309
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:43,439
Speaker 3: So does not, with approval or disapproval, show me what

1310
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 3: I've learned.

1311
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 2: What I have learned is that a very specific human Joseph,

1312
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:55,440
Speaker 2: for example, who has a sacred heart and an unbiased

1313
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:59,559
Speaker 2: mind to science, shows up on a scene and he

1314
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:05,439
Speaker 2: is is not through his personal opinion. He assesses through

1315
01:16:05,439 --> 01:16:10,560
Speaker 2: a scientific opinion, as do all first responders. That's the goal, right,

1316
01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:15,920
Speaker 2: And he's assessing environment, he's accessing temperature. Are there any

1317
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 2: outlier scenarios that have not been taken into account thus far?

1318
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 2: And body, you're looking down? What do you think I.

1319
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:30,160
Speaker 3: Think I'm trying to troubleshoot Joseph's internet is what I'm talking. Well, no,

1320
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:31,840
Speaker 3: he said, No, I think you're right. No, I think

1321
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 3: you're right. Body temperature.

1322
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 2: We all want to look at stab wounds. And also,

1323
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:40,240
Speaker 2: you know people have said some gory things and trigger alert.

1324
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:45,839
Speaker 2: Blood's blatter, things that are vomit, things that are human

1325
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 2: that might happen at a death scene. You need to

1326
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:51,559
Speaker 2: kind of have an assessment of that real time.

1327
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 6: So are you also saying like you look at the

1328
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 6: blood to see how dried it.

1329
01:16:56,080 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 2: Is, how long you've been there, has a coagulated sure,

1330
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 2: there's a temperature to that. So the and by the way,

1331
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:07,679
Speaker 2: is that temperature affected because it's in Miami. Is that

1332
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:12,439
Speaker 2: temperature affected because it's freezing, which, by the way, is

1333
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 2: why body really environmental?

1334
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, body farms each that kind of stuff, right, So

1335
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:20,800
Speaker 3: having these body farms in all these different areas of

1336
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:23,919
Speaker 3: the country is so important. Well, listen, thank you, Joseph.

1337
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 3: Unfortunately your internet got kind of goofy, but thank you

1338
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:30,719
Speaker 3: so much for joining us here. You were just trying

1339
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 3: to test us.

1340
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:34,320
Speaker 4: No, no, no, the lesson this was the lesson he

1341
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:37,080
Speaker 4: was testing us. We will, in fact visit us again.

1342
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 3: We will, don't forget. You can catch more of Joseph

1343
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 3: on his amazing podcast it's called body Bags. Stick around

1344
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 3: because we've got more to dig into. We've been getting

1345
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:52,640
Speaker 3: your talks and coming up, we're going to respond to

1346
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:54,679
Speaker 3: some keep right your true Graham tonight.

1347
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:08,240
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1348
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:09,240
Speaker 2: true crime.

1349
01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:09,840
Speaker 3: All the time.

1350
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:14,680
Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Body Move In and Taha House,

1351
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:17,360
Speaker 2: who was jumping in for Courtney Armstrong. By the way,

1352
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 2: it is Scientific Sunday, big huge shout out to Joseph

1353
01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan. We love was our below amazing forensics expert.

1354
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:28,840
Speaker 2: Just the best of the best, right, So we talk

1355
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:31,640
Speaker 2: about really tough things on Sundays. By the way, to

1356
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:33,639
Speaker 2: Sam and Adam, I hope you guys had a great

1357
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 2: weekend also, So we're trying to incorporate. We're just this

1358
01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:39,679
Speaker 2: is the things that we talk about during the breaks

1359
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:42,519
Speaker 2: that we're just going to bring you into, so you know,

1360
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,599
Speaker 2: like a little bit of like self care Sundays. People

1361
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:48,880
Speaker 2: say that's a thing and it sounds expensive, but it

1362
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:51,840
Speaker 2: shouldn't be. And where we every single one of us

1363
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 2: did something today that actually was like really good for

1364
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:58,439
Speaker 2: us and just for our just general care. I had

1365
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 2: Joe manicure and now I took them off and it's horrifying.

1366
01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:05,920
Speaker 3: If you have any tips, please let me know.

1367
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 2: My nails are so low that it looks like I'm

1368
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 2: a psychotic bier.

1369
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 3: I swear not, but I don't know how they'll ever grow.

1370
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 3: But on my self care of Sunday, I was hoping

1371
01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:21,840
Speaker 3: to have my nails look better or maybe we can

1372
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:25,960
Speaker 3: just do a little like sheep mask or something something

1373
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:29,040
Speaker 3: that makes us to start the great. Yeah, if you

1374
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:32,840
Speaker 3: have any I like. I like those things that you

1375
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:34,559
Speaker 3: put under your eyes, that you put in the freezer.

1376
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 3: They're close. Oh yeah, yeah, I like those in the

1377
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 3: morning when I wake up and I'm so puffy. Yeah,

1378
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:42,639
Speaker 3: I put those on and it just kind of shrinks

1379
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,040
Speaker 3: me down a little bit. Maybe it's just me rubbing

1380
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:46,920
Speaker 3: my eyes. I don't know, but no, I'm going to

1381
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 3: I bought us.

1382
01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:53,479
Speaker 2: Do you do You can't talk to us because you

1383
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:54,679
Speaker 2: have the greatest skin.

1384
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:59,200
Speaker 3: It's a perious talk. Looks like he's like the words

1385
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:02,920
Speaker 3: wh sound like but like it's so cute.

1386
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 2: You do always look like skincare seems like something that's

1387
01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 2: a big priority for you.

1388
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 6: I did it first a year today, So this is

1389
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:15,120
Speaker 6: the first time I've done an actual professional, you know,

1390
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 6: a real It's been a year. I know because I

1391
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 6: just do my own stuff at home.

1392
01:20:21,479 --> 01:20:24,000
Speaker 3: So this is I do my own stuff. What is

1393
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:26,160
Speaker 3: everybody's home stuffs?

1394
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1395
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:29,799
Speaker 3: What do you do so good? I do my nails

1396
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:32,599
Speaker 3: every weekend. I have gel I wish I could just

1397
01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:35,040
Speaker 3: do yours for you. Look at mine right now? I know,

1398
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 3: can you die and do my own? Embarrassing?

1399
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:40,759
Speaker 2: They're actually like so thin that like if I actually

1400
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:43,160
Speaker 2: like scratch my shirt, which I'm doing right now.

1401
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:46,880
Speaker 3: They like bend backward. Oh honey, oh no, oh yeah good,

1402
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 3: and you know what that feeling is I do.

1403
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 2: It's the worst, actually, not to make something out of nothing,

1404
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:57,479
Speaker 2: but like I have to hold my hand and fists don't.

1405
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:00,080
Speaker 3: Get I would not recommend getting your nails done and

1406
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:01,200
Speaker 3: I let them, let.

1407
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:03,360
Speaker 6: Them feel up, get strengthened and heal.

1408
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:05,719
Speaker 3: I would don't get like a clear coat, at least

1409
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 3: like a strengthener and put them on your nails so

1410
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 3: that they're not so bendy.

1411
01:21:09,479 --> 01:21:09,519
Speaker 6: You.

1412
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:13,240
Speaker 2: I had a strengthened by the way off a cuff.

1413
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:16,320
Speaker 2: It was like a strengthener that I was told had

1414
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:20,519
Speaker 2: for mel to hide in it. But it really it

1415
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 2: was like something that you put on your very weak

1416
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:25,240
Speaker 2: nails and they grew like weeds.

1417
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 3: You know what else, pregnancy pills, when your natal pills,

1418
01:21:30,280 --> 01:21:33,599
Speaker 3: pre natal thank you. It is supposed to be good

1419
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 3: for your hair. And really I've heard.

1420
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 6: That men can't take those, can they? Like if I want.

1421
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:44,400
Speaker 3: Stronger nails, I don't know.

1422
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:46,240
Speaker 6: I al feel uncomfortable.

1423
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:52,559
Speaker 3: Sunday tips. I gave my coworker Mit all one time

1424
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:54,120
Speaker 3: because he had a headache, and I didn't tell them

1425
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:55,479
Speaker 3: they were mine all and he said it was like

1426
01:21:55,479 --> 01:21:56,680
Speaker 3: the best thing ever. And I was like, oh that

1427
01:21:56,720 --> 01:22:01,040
Speaker 3: was mit all. So it was for his period cream.

1428
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:08,320
Speaker 3: If you have period crems, we did solve those too.

1429
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:10,120
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

1430
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 9: Well, if you have any like Sunday tips, you know

1431
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:17,880
Speaker 9: what days are real, right, Like we get to hang together.

1432
01:22:18,080 --> 01:22:22,080
Speaker 9: Our job is actually it's like such a beautiful thing

1433
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 9: to get to be together into you and to sort

1434
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 9: of like, you know, hunker in. So if you have

1435
01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:32,400
Speaker 9: tips that you have to kind of make your week

1436
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:35,160
Speaker 9: a little better, we want to hear them, So bring.

1437
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 6: Them please, or additional tips for your nails because it

1438
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:39,720
Speaker 6: sounds like you need to.

1439
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:43,880
Speaker 2: Nails I'm putting them under my armpits right now because

1440
01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 2: even just like using them, it feels like they're yelling

1441
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:53,160
Speaker 2: at me. So here's two better nails to come. And

1442
01:22:53,160 --> 01:22:56,120
Speaker 2: then it matters because what we talk about is real stuff, right.

1443
01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:59,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, but sometimes we need that sort of we

1444
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:01,680
Speaker 6: need to think about something else a little bit of

1445
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:04,080
Speaker 6: a moment to care for ourselves because we are talking

1446
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:06,720
Speaker 6: about such heavy topics. That's why I actually like our

1447
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:09,439
Speaker 6: therapy Thursdays. And now it seems like we're going to

1448
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 6: add a little bit of a self care Sunday, so

1449
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 6: we'll figure out how to make that happen. But you

1450
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:17,160
Speaker 6: know what I care about. I care about talkbacks. Yes

1451
01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:19,719
Speaker 6: you do, I do. Those are my favorite too.

1452
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:23,200
Speaker 2: And your skin is so beautiful and I wow.

1453
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:24,879
Speaker 3: So let's go to a talkback.

1454
01:23:25,479 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 10: Oh my god, it's Cricket from Connecticut and I totally

1455
01:23:29,040 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 10: just sent you a talkback before I was ready. I

1456
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:38,240
Speaker 10: was talking about the services for mental health for people

1457
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:42,840
Speaker 10: who are incarcerated or otherwise, and I agree that it

1458
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:46,160
Speaker 10: needs to be addressed before the crime is committed and

1459
01:23:46,680 --> 01:23:51,040
Speaker 10: even when they're young, and unfortunately, adolescent and young adult

1460
01:23:51,080 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 10: services are so hard to find.

1461
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:58,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, if that ain't the truth, I mean, I'm

1462
01:23:58,360 --> 01:24:02,559
Speaker 3: still waiting. I'm an adult with in the United States

1463
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:05,480
Speaker 3: of America and I am still waiting.

1464
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:08,240
Speaker 6: For my therapy. We have been talking about this since June.

1465
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:10,200
Speaker 6: I know, oh, body, that's crazy.

1466
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:14,960
Speaker 3: I mean, imagine being elderly or a teenager, it's going

1467
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:19,640
Speaker 3: to be harder, or a crisis. In a crisis, I

1468
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:22,960
Speaker 3: want to guy and I have a minute now. I

1469
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:25,800
Speaker 3: imagine that mean, well, I imagine if I called somebody

1470
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:27,560
Speaker 3: and said, you know, I'm feeling like I want to

1471
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:31,479
Speaker 3: harm myself. I would be seen immediately. Thank god, I'm

1472
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 3: not at that point, Like I just want to talk

1473
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 3: to somebody, that's all. You know. I have been a

1474
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:37,280
Speaker 3: therapy in a couple of years, and this is a

1475
01:24:37,680 --> 01:24:40,120
Speaker 3: you know, really heavy job. I'm working two jobs. I

1476
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:43,960
Speaker 3: you know, we all are. We're all very busy. It's

1477
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:46,200
Speaker 3: nothing's wrong, It's just I need to get back to therapy.

1478
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, it makes sense. And if it's that difficult

1479
01:24:49,080 --> 01:24:51,640
Speaker 6: formal for anybody to try to do what I can

1480
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:55,920
Speaker 6: imagine someone juggling, you know, jobs, has kids, who has

1481
01:24:55,920 --> 01:24:58,719
Speaker 6: the time to keep trying to call a representative press

1482
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:01,600
Speaker 6: one for the the most ridiculous thing that people have

1483
01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:04,280
Speaker 6: to go through this. So it's I feel like if.

1484
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:07,360
Speaker 3: We like kind of started tackling mental health in this

1485
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:12,040
Speaker 3: country earlier, yes, and more often, and like made it

1486
01:25:12,080 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 3: easier to access a lot of our problems would be.

1487
01:25:16,439 --> 01:25:19,120
Speaker 6: I agree, you know what I mean. Wow, Yeah, it's

1488
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:22,800
Speaker 6: that's a heavy, heavy and serious talk back that that. Yeah,

1489
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:25,080
Speaker 6: we are actually going to do some shows down the

1490
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:27,880
Speaker 6: road that have a lot to do with incarceration. But

1491
01:25:28,280 --> 01:25:30,920
Speaker 6: I want to get some experts on and maybe in

1492
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:33,759
Speaker 6: some way, shape or form, talk about that that side

1493
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:35,680
Speaker 6: of it as well. Yeah, you know, how how we

1494
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:37,200
Speaker 6: could prevent It's.

1495
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:41,400
Speaker 2: A funny thing, right because we are we're we're a show,

1496
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 2: so we can't really prescribe therapy. No, true, however, we

1497
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:49,559
Speaker 2: we can access it a little bit. Like I don't know,

1498
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:52,479
Speaker 2: we're all kind of in it together and we are

1499
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:57,080
Speaker 2: talking about such the stuff and the world is heavy

1500
01:25:57,200 --> 01:26:01,160
Speaker 2: right now. What are some basic tools that we could

1501
01:26:01,200 --> 01:26:04,600
Speaker 2: all be like learning together. By the way, if you

1502
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:08,639
Speaker 2: have any, share them, we all want them. We're all

1503
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:12,800
Speaker 2: seeing the same content. It's not as though we're immune

1504
01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:16,760
Speaker 2: to it either. We're all so we we I'm going

1505
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:19,479
Speaker 2: to speak for myself. I like get down on my

1506
01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:22,840
Speaker 2: knees and pray sometimes because it's it's heavy.

1507
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:24,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels hard.

1508
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:28,599
Speaker 2: I pray for There's any single person who has been

1509
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:32,240
Speaker 2: on this show as a victim or a victim's family

1510
01:26:32,280 --> 01:26:35,880
Speaker 2: member that I have not prayed for every single night.

1511
01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:39,479
Speaker 3: Since it's just in the world that we live in.

1512
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 3: The kind of person she is, Like, if you know

1513
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:45,559
Speaker 3: Stephanie in real life, you would know she's very caring.

1514
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:48,680
Speaker 3: I'm over carrying a little bit like she's such a

1515
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:51,880
Speaker 3: kind person. If she says she's praying for you, she

1516
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:52,479
Speaker 3: really is.

1517
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:53,759
Speaker 6: I do believe.

1518
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:55,880
Speaker 2: And I don't even know what that means, because there

1519
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:57,479
Speaker 2: was a time that I was like, really, thanks for

1520
01:26:57,520 --> 01:27:01,519
Speaker 2: the prayers. That means nothing because I'm in pain and

1521
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:05,080
Speaker 2: those so I get that too. So I'm not prescribing

1522
01:27:05,160 --> 01:27:09,720
Speaker 2: things when I say prayer. It's whatever the world. But

1523
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:14,880
Speaker 2: I know that we can do better together, and I

1524
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:17,320
Speaker 2: know that I feel better when I'm with you guys,

1525
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:20,160
Speaker 2: And I know I feel better when I'm with you

1526
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:23,080
Speaker 2: guys talking about tough stuff in.

1527
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 3: A world that seems a little bit disconnected.

1528
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I still like lost in the sauce sometimes myself

1529
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:33,559
Speaker 2: and I study it and we take it very serious.

1530
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:36,600
Speaker 2: So we're not trying to water it down again. We

1531
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 2: have no there's no agenda other than if you know

1532
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 2: how to like get through it better and.

1533
01:27:48,479 --> 01:27:53,960
Speaker 3: I like the skills. Well, thank you so much Cricket

1534
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:54,240
Speaker 3: for that.

1535
01:27:54,520 --> 01:28:01,440
Speaker 11: Yeah, Hey, lady Stephanie from Ohio, just another quick merch suggestion,

1536
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:06,080
Speaker 11: because we love our furry friends, how about like some

1537
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:09,839
Speaker 11: dog and cat shirts that also say allegedly allegedly allegedly

1538
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:15,200
Speaker 11: because we know they get everything. Love the banter, love

1539
01:28:15,240 --> 01:28:17,720
Speaker 11: the stories, Love you ladies, Hope you have a great day.

1540
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:22,040
Speaker 3: By Oh. Pet merch is like my do you guys

1541
01:28:22,160 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 3: know that that is one of the most booming industries

1542
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 3: in the United States? How much money? Okay? So we're

1543
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 3: doing like some Halloween stuff, okay, on true crime tonight.

1544
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:34,040
Speaker 3: I'm really looking forward to it. So I went and

1545
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:37,240
Speaker 3: got a bunch of facts about Halloween. One of the

1546
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:41,480
Speaker 3: things I learned in getting ready for our Halloween spectacular

1547
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:49,160
Speaker 3: is that during Halloween, Americans spend seven hundred million dollars

1548
01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:49,839
Speaker 3: on pet.

1549
01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:53,600
Speaker 6: Costumes, just the pets, pets just like.

1550
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:56,960
Speaker 2: That doesn't even include I'm too, and I am a

1551
01:28:57,560 --> 01:28:58,800
Speaker 2: little like blanket.

1552
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:01,439
Speaker 3: I am a woman without children. I was not blessed

1553
01:29:01,479 --> 01:29:05,560
Speaker 3: with that ability. Okay, but I have I treat my

1554
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:07,800
Speaker 3: dogs like you know, they would be my kids. So

1555
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:09,840
Speaker 3: I am one of those seven yeard million.

1556
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:13,360
Speaker 6: Did you dress?

1557
01:29:13,439 --> 01:29:17,360
Speaker 3: You have pets that are treated better? It is the

1558
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:21,679
Speaker 3: Ivy League of Pets. It's really you are the greatest

1559
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 3: pet parents. So I want I would love some true

1560
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:28,920
Speaker 3: friends tonight. Pet merch is what I'm saying, like a

1561
01:29:28,960 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 3: cat a cat T shirt that says don't f with me.

1562
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:36,160
Speaker 6: That's cute with me.

1563
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:41,679
Speaker 3: Okay, So here's the question. Here's the question.

1564
01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:44,000
Speaker 2: This is a soft ledge. We have to have a

1565
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:46,719
Speaker 2: larger combo about this. But when we talk about merch,

1566
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:50,559
Speaker 2: we're making it. By the way, Sammy who she sent

1567
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 2: us mugs, Yeah, yeah, we're well, there's been like a mailbox,

1568
01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:01,880
Speaker 2: it's coming coming. The idea is there, and merch would

1569
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,880
Speaker 2: imply that like we're somehow going to benefit from now,

1570
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:08,400
Speaker 2: which feels weird so that I don't know what the

1571
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:13,720
Speaker 2: answer is, like dedicated this is a bigger conroo that

1572
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:15,880
Speaker 2: maybe we have it with iHeart, but like maybe there's

1573
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:20,720
Speaker 2: like a advocacy thing. I don't know the way that

1574
01:30:20,760 --> 01:30:23,280
Speaker 2: we don't want to like benefit some merch. We all

1575
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:26,840
Speaker 2: could like pay some bills, but it doesn't feel like.

1576
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:27,599
Speaker 3: That's the spirit.

1577
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 5: I know.

1578
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:33,519
Speaker 3: We're all sort of we're all sort of scratching.

1579
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:38,120
Speaker 2: At like, hey, what's all like invest in something by

1580
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:41,439
Speaker 2: the way, invest the vest getting in.

1581
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:46,280
Speaker 3: Time, but like that.

1582
01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:49,800
Speaker 2: Wasn't intentional, but like if we did, could that lead

1583
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:50,479
Speaker 2: to something?

1584
01:30:51,479 --> 01:30:54,560
Speaker 3: Yes, that was like around us.

1585
01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:56,640
Speaker 2: I don't know what that is and I don't have

1586
01:30:56,720 --> 01:30:59,599
Speaker 2: a I don't actually have a plan there, but we're just.

1587
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:00,400
Speaker 3: Talking about loud.

1588
01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:03,080
Speaker 2: It's talking out loud for us to think about because

1589
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:08,320
Speaker 2: that's we get stuck in the sauce about merch. We're

1590
01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:10,639
Speaker 2: going to give away merch, right, that's what we're doing

1591
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:12,080
Speaker 2: that right, that's coming.

1592
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:14,840
Speaker 3: By the way, what it's solo is role ever, like

1593
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:15,719
Speaker 3: this is a.

1594
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:21,560
Speaker 2: Promise is coming maybe the holidays, it might be February,

1595
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:21,920
Speaker 2: but like.

1596
01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 3: We're on it. We're on it.

1597
01:31:23,160 --> 01:31:23,360
Speaker 6: Ish.

1598
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:26,559
Speaker 2: We're a small team, you know, all of us. This

1599
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:28,559
Speaker 2: is the team that's doing it right now. So when

1600
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:31,320
Speaker 2: if we're not wearing it, you can't.

1601
01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:34,400
Speaker 3: Have it yet. But we're close because we all want

1602
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:37,240
Speaker 3: to wear it too. But I don't thing we want

1603
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:40,320
Speaker 3: to benefit from as I guess where we get lost

1604
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:40,880
Speaker 3: in the sauce.

1605
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:44,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, anyway, I don't think I like your initial idea

1606
01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:47,240
Speaker 6: of maybe the proceeds go to some sort of organization

1607
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:48,639
Speaker 6: that like the.

1608
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:53,120
Speaker 3: Gen Do Foundation that identifies maybe it's a new one everything.

1609
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:55,480
Speaker 3: If we're maybe an mm idust.

1610
01:31:55,320 --> 01:31:58,000
Speaker 2: With the we have that or vests with a true

1611
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:02,160
Speaker 2: crime tonight with a little pepper spread And I'm feeling it.

1612
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:05,400
Speaker 3: I'm feeling the go go bag. I'm down, like that

1613
01:32:05,680 --> 01:32:13,560
Speaker 3: I feel like I should like the pet situation allegedly

1614
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:16,240
Speaker 3: allegedly allegedly high fives.

1615
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:18,559
Speaker 6: I think now I'm dying to know the body. What

1616
01:32:18,680 --> 01:32:21,959
Speaker 6: is your pet? What was your last pet Halloween costume?

1617
01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:22,640
Speaker 4: What was?

1618
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:27,559
Speaker 3: They make these really cute dog specific costumes. And Lemon

1619
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,519
Speaker 3: Lemon was a little hot dog, mad A Lemon and

1620
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:36,240
Speaker 3: Yogi Yogi was a little bat and they had it's

1621
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:40,080
Speaker 3: like a vest and has like bat wings and stuff,

1622
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:43,799
Speaker 3: and he was a little set. And then Mochi, Mochi,

1623
01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:46,920
Speaker 3: my cat had she had a pumpkin shirt, but she

1624
01:32:47,040 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 3: was very unhappy putting it on. I will tell I

1625
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:52,160
Speaker 3: don't know that dog. I don't love it.

1626
01:32:52,479 --> 01:32:54,639
Speaker 6: They don't like it, but it's my cat.

1627
01:32:55,240 --> 01:32:55,679
Speaker 3: Is my cat?

1628
01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 6: Cats hate that kind of stuff. But the dog is

1629
01:32:58,040 --> 01:33:00,160
Speaker 6: the cutest. Did you ever see like the videos on

1630
01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:02,840
Speaker 6: Instagram where they dressed a dog like Chucky with the

1631
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:06,680
Speaker 6: little they're walking around the little knife for the It's hysterical.

1632
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:08,759
Speaker 6: By the way, I'm down.

1633
01:33:10,120 --> 01:33:14,479
Speaker 3: Do you have Rita dressed as dress Rita the cat?

1634
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:14,920
Speaker 2: No?

1635
01:33:15,120 --> 01:33:18,639
Speaker 3: I tried to. I've never put clothes on her properly,

1636
01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:20,080
Speaker 3: but I tried to put a leash on her and

1637
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:21,800
Speaker 3: she just absolutely.

1638
01:33:23,280 --> 01:33:23,559
Speaker 6: Listen.

1639
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:27,760
Speaker 3: I miss my dog. He passed Dodgers so much. I'm

1640
01:33:27,800 --> 01:33:28,840
Speaker 3: ready for a new one.

1641
01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:33,120
Speaker 2: I'm soft launching the idea, so we're putting it out

1642
01:33:33,120 --> 01:33:36,640
Speaker 2: in the universe. However, here's the thing. We're up for

1643
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:40,640
Speaker 2: your suggestions. Eight eight eight three one Crime and listen tomorrow.

1644
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:44,639
Speaker 2: A lot of things about Epstein through Crime tonight. Stay safe,

1645
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:45,919
Speaker 2: We'll see you tomorrow.

1646
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:46,600
Speaker 3: B