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Speaker 1: Okay, mom, what do you think when I say Jackie O.

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Speaker 2: First of all, she was extremely popular in Greece when

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Speaker 2: she was the first Lady because she came to Greece

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Speaker 2: in a like unofficial official visit when her husband was

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Speaker 2: the president.

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Speaker 3: That made her extremely popular in Greece.

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Speaker 4: So after Kennedy was assassinated and she started seeing Onassis

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Speaker 4: or what was the public's.

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Speaker 3: Response to that, Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it wasn't so much Jackie as you know,

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Speaker 5: on Nasis the people hated because he had this affair

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Speaker 5: with Maria Callas, the opera singers, and then all of

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Speaker 5: a sudden.

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Speaker 3: He abandoned her essentially to have you know, another German

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Speaker 3: his collection. So have you know, married the widow of

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Speaker 3: the US president and you know, let didn't go well

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Speaker 3: with a grief Well concerning.

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Speaker 6: Her, I mean, okay, it was a business agreement in

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Speaker 6: a way. She was looking for security, both financial and

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Speaker 6: physical security for herself and her children, and he wanted

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Speaker 6: to get the ultimate status symbol what was the wood

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Speaker 6: of the US President.

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Speaker 2: So she wasn't very popular at the time. But it's

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Speaker 2: not like they hated her or anything.

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Speaker 3: It was more Nazis, but you know they criticized.

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Speaker 4: I'm George Severies, I'm Lara Smith, and this is United

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Speaker 4: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with

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Speaker 4: the Kennedy dynasty. Each week we go into one aspect

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Speaker 4: of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about

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Speaker 4: Jackie O's dating life.

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Speaker 7: And the thing is, she had such an evolution in

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Speaker 7: her life.

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Speaker 8: Her approach towards romance and sex was heavily influenced by

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Speaker 8: her parents, but the insanity of her life constantly shook

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Speaker 8: that foundation in really surprising ways.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and her relationship to the public really affected her

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Speaker 4: private life in a way that very few women in

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Speaker 4: history have experienced, and mostly in that she just didn't

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Speaker 4: have a private life anymore.

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Speaker 8: Jackie had a few notable relationships in the years after

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Speaker 8: JFK's assassination. First with Jack Warnike, an architect who worked

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Speaker 8: with her on preserving Lafayette Square in DC and also

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Speaker 8: designed JFK's memorial, the Eternal Flame in Arlington National Cemetery.

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Speaker 4: Then there was David ormsby Gore, a British diplomat and

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Speaker 4: friend of the family really who spent a lot of

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Speaker 4: time in the White House during Kennedy's presidency, and of

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Speaker 4: course aristotle Onassis, Greek shipping magnet, one of the world's

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Speaker 4: wealthiest men in the twentieth century, and Jackie's sister's boyfriend.

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Speaker 8: So today we are talking to Jay Randy Terra Borelli.

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Speaker 8: He's the author of Jackie Public Private Secret, which is

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Speaker 8: a relentlessly researched biography of Jackie Easier to discuss her

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Speaker 8: most interesting relationships with dating and family. Randy thinks, so

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Speaker 8: much for joining.

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Speaker 9: Us, I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 8: So this episode is primarily about Jackie's dating life, her

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Speaker 8: romantic life. And to start, really we wanted to ask

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Speaker 8: what was her parents' relationship.

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Speaker 9: Like, well, her parents' relationship Janet, Janet, Lee and Jack Bouvier. Well,

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Speaker 9: it wasn't good and it very much became sort of

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Speaker 9: the template for both Janet and Jackie and Lee as

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Speaker 9: to what not to do and what not to accept.

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Speaker 9: The problem with Jack Bouvier was that, you know, he

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Speaker 9: was chronically unfaithful to his wife Janet, and she kept

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Speaker 9: going back to him despite that, and it made Janet

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Speaker 9: feel very weak. And Janet said, weakness is something that

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Speaker 9: you inherit she said, my mother inherited it from her mother.

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Speaker 9: I inherited it from my mother, and she said, and

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Speaker 9: I'll be damned if Jackie and Lee inherited from me.

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Speaker 9: And she said, I will not raise weak daughters.

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Speaker 7: Period.

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Speaker 9: So the eye was always watching for this strain of infidelity.

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Speaker 9: And that's why it's so ironic that Jackie ended up

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Speaker 9: with JFK. Because he was chronically unfaithful in the same

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Speaker 9: way that her father was chronically unfaithful to her mother.

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Speaker 9: But I will say that they didn't go into the

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Speaker 9: marriage blindly. They knew what they were getting into. They

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Speaker 9: made a decision as mother and daughter. They made a decision,

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Speaker 9: you know that Look, he's got money, and he's got power,

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Speaker 9: and he's a senator. He's probably going to be a president.

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Speaker 9: He'll probably cheat, but let's he doesn't and let's take

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Speaker 9: a chance. And that decision, you know, was a faithful decision,

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Speaker 9: and it was one that Janet regretted very much. She

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Speaker 9: very much regretted I don't want to say forcing her

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Speaker 9: daughter into the marriage, but encouraging her daughter into that marriage,

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Speaker 9: because when JFK was unfaithful to Jackie was very hurtful,

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Speaker 9: and Janet, the mom, blamed herself.

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Speaker 8: Something that I find really interesting in the conversation that

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Speaker 8: Janet and Jackie had and the choices that Jackie made

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Speaker 8: with all the information that she had, is that I

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Speaker 8: think we get presented this idea that at that point

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Speaker 8: in time, every woman just had to accept that every

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Speaker 8: man was going to cheat, and she was a doting

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Speaker 8: housewife at heart, and that's kind of the image that

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Speaker 8: she did resent as first Lady because it felt like

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Speaker 8: at first, it seems like she felt like that was

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Speaker 8: what was needed or desired for the role.

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Speaker 7: But it's just so interesting to read.

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Speaker 8: About how many times Jackie made the decision to stay

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Speaker 8: and it was an educated decision and had all the

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Speaker 8: information up front, and it wasn't a huge shock to her.

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Speaker 8: You know that he was having affairs, and it was

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Speaker 8: more so like the nature of the affairs or the

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Speaker 8: specifics of the person that were the issue a lot

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Speaker 8: of times.

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Speaker 9: Well, I think that what you're saying is very true.

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Speaker 9: And the follow up to Jackie Public Private Secret, which

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Speaker 9: is my present book JFK. Public Private Secret, I go

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Speaker 9: into that a little bit more, and it's interesting the

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Speaker 9: bargains we sometimes make with ourselves in order to move

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Speaker 9: forward with our lives and Jackie went from this does

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Speaker 9: not happen to me, too, well, this does happen to me,

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Speaker 9: but only because I allow. And you know, originally, when

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Speaker 9: she first found out that JFK was cheating on her,

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Speaker 9: she was like, no, this doesn't happen to me. And

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Speaker 9: you know, she was ready to file for divorce, and

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Speaker 9: she met with attorneys and they they were moving forward

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Speaker 9: with the possibility of a divorce, and ultimately that didn't happen,

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Speaker 9: and Jackie accepted a financial payment from JFK's father to

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Speaker 9: stay in the marriage, which you know, a lot of

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Speaker 9: people have a dim view of, but I kind of

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Speaker 9: don't I think she I think she earned it, you know,

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Speaker 9: I mean, I just I think that it was an

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Speaker 9: empowering decision for her to, you know, make that deal

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Speaker 9: because she knew that she wasn't going to be able

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Speaker 9: to divorce this man. She knew that she was not

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Speaker 9: going to be able to go up against the Kennedy machinery.

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Speaker 9: It just it just wasn't going to happen, you know.

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Speaker 9: So she made a choice and she did accept, you know,

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Speaker 9: a nice payment to stay in the marriage. But then

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Speaker 9: you know, she learned another lesson which is that money

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Speaker 9: doesn't buy happiness, you know. And that was a hard

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Speaker 9: lesson for her because she and her sister Lee were

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Speaker 9: taught from a very early age by their mother that

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Speaker 9: the secret to happily ever after is money and power.

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Speaker 9: That's what they were taught. Come to find out it

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Speaker 9: wasn't quite true. It's funny there's so much talk of

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Speaker 9: weakness and strength in their family. I mean, it really

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Speaker 9: is like an undercurrent throughout the book. And there's a

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Speaker 9: way in which they talk about kind of the day

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Speaker 9: to day of dating and marriage as though every day

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Speaker 9: you're going to war, Like there's something very intense about

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Speaker 9: like every day you get up and you make do

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Speaker 9: with what you have and you win, you know. And

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Speaker 9: I was actually thinking, I mean, this is sort of

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Speaker 9: a tangent, but I was thinking this sort of contributes

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Speaker 9: to Jackie's reputation as like a survivor. And I think

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Speaker 9: also we were talking the other day about what makes

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Speaker 9: her kind of like a gay icon, and I think

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Speaker 9: that's a big part of it, is just like this

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Speaker 9: sort of like even when the cards are stacked against her,

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Speaker 9: like she comes out on top.

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Speaker 4: But speaking of Lee, just before we move on, I

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Speaker 4: wanted to ask for anyone who might not know or

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Speaker 4: who might.

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Speaker 1: Not have read about the book.

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Speaker 4: Like, one of the big things we talked about is

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Speaker 4: that Lee was originally the one JFK was interested in,

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Speaker 4: and there was a very conscious decision made sort of

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Speaker 4: collaboratively between Jackie and her mother that Jackie would be

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Speaker 4: the one to pursue him. So can you talk just

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Speaker 4: a little bit about the logistics of how that happened. Well,

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Speaker 4: that's something that surprised me in the research of my book.

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Speaker 4: You know that that decision had been made, and it

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Speaker 4: made me feel, you know, badly for Lee because she's

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Speaker 4: always in her sister's shadow. And later on, you know,

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Speaker 4: Jackie gets on Nassas too, who was also Lee's first

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Speaker 4: This is to say that JFK and Lee had a

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Speaker 4: big affair, as Leon on NASAs did. I mean Lee

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Speaker 4: and on NASAs were actually in love. Lee I just

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Speaker 4: met JFK and she was only nineteen years old. He

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Speaker 4: was in his thirties, and they had nice a little

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Speaker 4: bit of a flirtation, but then they didn't even go out.

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Speaker 4: He was getting ready to call her to ask her

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Speaker 4: out on a date, and when the mom found out

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Speaker 4: about it, Janet. She was like, hm, that's interesting, you know,

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Speaker 4: and then she put this together in her head. Jackie

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Speaker 4: is I think she was about twenty four years old,

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Speaker 4: maybe twenty three. Lee was nineteen, and Janet's decision was

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Speaker 4: that Jackie needed to get settled. That's what they called

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Speaker 4: it back then, getting settled, meaning you need to get

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Speaker 4: married and get settled. And if you weren't settled by

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Speaker 4: twenty three, that was not going to bode well for

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Speaker 4: you in society. And so Janet's decision was to let

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Speaker 4: Jackie have JFK.

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Speaker 9: And she told Lee, look, you'll get the next guy, right,

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Speaker 9: but this one has to be your sisters, because she

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Speaker 9: needs to be settled. They had no idea, you know,

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Speaker 9: what this was going to turn into, you know, they

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Speaker 9: had no idea whether this was going to be a

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Speaker 9: happy marriage or and certainly no idea that Jackie was

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Speaker 9: going to end up first lady. They were just Jane

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Speaker 9: was just trying to get herself, you know, and and

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Speaker 9: so that's what happened. You know, Janet encouraged Jackie. You

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Speaker 9: might want to say Janet made Jackie, you know, start

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Speaker 9: going out with JFK to see, you know, if that

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Speaker 9: could actually happen, and ultimately it did, and Lee ended

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Speaker 9: up on the having sort of the short end of

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Speaker 9: the stick that in that respect.

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Speaker 7: But the crazy part about that is that Jackie was engaged.

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Speaker 9: Yes, well you know, that is the crazy part, except

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Speaker 9: for the fact that they found out that the guy

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Speaker 9: that she was engaged to didn't have as much money

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Speaker 9: as Janet thought he had. And once that was determined,

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Speaker 9: then Janet was like, well, he's not for you. And

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Speaker 9: Jackie wasn't that crazy about the guy anyway, you know,

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Speaker 9: the only reason that he was in the picture was

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Speaker 9: because they thought he was wealthier than he was. But

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Speaker 9: there it wasn't like Jackie was, you know, absolutely wild

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Speaker 9: about him. It's funny thing because I actually, can you

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Speaker 9: believe it. I actually interviewed that guy Wow, like about

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Speaker 9: twenty five years ago, you know, and he said, you

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Speaker 9: know that there was not a big spark between them,

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Speaker 9: but there wasn't between Jackie and JFK either, you know,

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Speaker 9: And when Jackie and JFK started going out, it was

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Speaker 9: it wasn't you know, it's fine, it was okay, you know,

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Speaker 9: but today they would be considered to have a lack

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Speaker 9: of chemistry. You know, today if they were going out,

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Speaker 9: they would probably take a look at the situation and decide, well,

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Speaker 9: this is we're not right for each other and there's

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Speaker 9: no chemistry between us, so let's just move on, you know.

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Speaker 9: But back then that wasn't so much the case. Back

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Speaker 9: then they both really had a strong motivation to make

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Speaker 9: this thing work, and so they just continued sort of,

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Speaker 9: you know, like like you say, you know, every day

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Speaker 9: is a battle to be won, you know, let's just

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Speaker 9: figure out a way forward and get to the victory.

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Speaker 9: And and that's what they did.

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Speaker 8: And it seems like Jackie, though, did have chemistry with

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Speaker 8: other people. She had had like exciting romantic experience instances

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Speaker 8: before she met JFK. And you know, aside from Jack

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Speaker 8: Houston that she was like not crazy about. But were

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Speaker 8: there any like specific instances when she was you know,

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Speaker 8: pre JFK that she was actually like excited and.

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Speaker 9: Well, you know, well there were a few moments, but

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Speaker 9: there were there weren't a lot.

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Speaker 8: You know.

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Speaker 9: I actually always thought that she and Yusha Archinclaus, who

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Speaker 9: would have been great together. Unfortunately he was her step brother,

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Speaker 9: so that didn't work. But they were crazy about each other,

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Speaker 9: you know, and they went to Europe together and they

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Speaker 9: just you know, and he gave her her first kiss.

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Speaker 9: I interviewed him, and he was still crazy about her,

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Speaker 9: even in his old age, and kind of a little

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Speaker 9: bit regretful, you know, that they that they could not

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Speaker 9: be together because had it not been for the fact

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Speaker 9: that her mom married his father, you know, they might

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Speaker 9: have ended up together. You know, but jack he had

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Speaker 9: a few experiences. I mean, she lost her virginity and

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Speaker 9: an elevator in Paris. I think, you know, I don't

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Speaker 9: know that doubt was exactly passionate as much as it

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Speaker 9: was interesting.

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Speaker 7: Right, what's the story to that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the story there?

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Speaker 9: Well, the story there's a better there's a bigger story

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Speaker 9: than what happened. I mean, what happened was she met

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Speaker 9: this guy. I can't remember his name right now, but

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Speaker 9: it's in my book, and you know, they hit it

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Speaker 9: off and they ended up having sex at an elevator,

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Speaker 9: which was she was a virgin. So this was like huge,

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Speaker 9: But that's fine. That's not what interested me, to be

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Speaker 9: honest with you. What interested me was what happened after that,

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Speaker 9: which was Jackie made Lee promise not to tell their mother, Janet,

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Speaker 9: Please don't tell mommy about this, and Lee promised, and

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Speaker 9: then in order to curry favor with the mom, Lee

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Speaker 9: went and told her, you know, and Jackie was so

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Speaker 9: upset and felt so betrayed to me, really said everything

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Speaker 9: you need to know about this, sister Lee dynamic. You

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Speaker 9: know that, in truth, had the tables been reversed, Jackie

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Speaker 9: might have done the same thing, because they would they

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Speaker 9: would do anything that they could think of to be

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Speaker 9: in the mom's favor. And what better thing could Lee

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Speaker 9: do it? And to tell her mother this? Right? So

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Speaker 9: that's a story from my book Jackie, Janet and Lee,

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Speaker 9: you know, which was about the mom and the two daughters.

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Speaker 9: But I always thought that that was a really interesting story.

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Speaker 4: I'm trying to remember where if this was in the

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Speaker 4: book or if you said it in an interview somewhere,

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Speaker 4: but this idea that towards the end of her life,

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Speaker 4: someone asked Lee, are you happy?

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Speaker 1: And she said, I'm almost happy? Was that the right quote?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, that's it. I can't believe that you remember that,

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Speaker 9: because that's you know that that actually was me.

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Speaker 1: It was, yes, there you go, it was me, you know.

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Speaker 9: And the last time I saw her, because I really

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Speaker 9: I liked her so much, and she had been had

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Speaker 9: such a hard life, and I remember asking her. She

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Speaker 9: looked like she was okay, But there was always a

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Speaker 9: sadness about Lee that and I don't really know sometimes

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Speaker 9: if it was that she sort of relayed this sadness,

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Speaker 9: or was it that we know so much about her

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Speaker 9: sadness that we sort of made her sad in our minds?

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 9: Whenever I saw her, I felt like there was sadness

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Speaker 9: there and I asked her, I said, Lee, you know,

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Speaker 9: are you happy? Are you happy? Now? You know? She

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Speaker 9: thought about it and she said, well, I'm almost happy.

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Speaker 9: I thought, Wow, I just don't even know what to

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Speaker 9: make of that. I had never heard that before, and

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Speaker 9: that made me sad. So here we go, right, we

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Speaker 9: went right back to sadness. You know, I don't know

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Speaker 9: that she was particularly sad in that moment, but I

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Speaker 9: know I was.

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Speaker 8: I mean, they both lost their sons, like in a

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Speaker 8: really close period of time, right, I mean, they had

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Speaker 8: such parallels in their lives, even beyond just being sisters

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Speaker 8: and the type of men that they were with in

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Speaker 8: their life.

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Speaker 9: And the mom you know, I mean them and they

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Speaker 9: were very different too. They were so different in the

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Speaker 9: sense that Lee was okay with infidelity. It's like Lee

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Speaker 9: took after the father and Jackie took after the mom.

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Speaker 9: The mother was not okay with infidelity, you know, and

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Speaker 9: she and JFK were longerheads about this throughout their entire relationship.

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Speaker 9: Jana loved JFK, but she did not love some of

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Speaker 9: those moments with her daughter. And Janet used to say

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Speaker 9: of JFK, so many women, so little sense, right. But

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Speaker 9: Lee cheated on her husband, both of them, you know,

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Speaker 9: And she cheated on Stass with Onassis, and everybody was

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Speaker 9: in the family was like, oh my god, because Jackie

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Speaker 9: never would have done that. Jackie did not. She didn't

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Speaker 9: she never cheated, and you know, everybody in the family

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Speaker 9: was like, well, how could Lee do this knowing how

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Speaker 9: her mom feels about it and how Jackie feels about it.

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Speaker 9: How is because Lee took after her father, who also

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Speaker 9: did it, and Lee at one point, you know, when

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Speaker 9: Jackie confided in Lee that she believed that JFK was

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Speaker 9: cheating on her and she was thinking about divorcing him,

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Speaker 9: Lee said, why are you making such a big deal

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Speaker 9: about this? You know, daddy cheated on mommy and it

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Speaker 9: all worked out just fine. And Jackie's response to that

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Speaker 9: was for who right for who? So they were very

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Speaker 9: different in that respect.

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Speaker 4: So Jackie, you know, dealt with the sort of day

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Speaker 4: to day cumuliations of JFK's cheating and of rumors that

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Speaker 4: weren't even true. I mean, I was of surprise to

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Speaker 4: learn that the Marilyn affair was basically like a one

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Speaker 4: time or a one weekend thing. I mean, some of

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Speaker 4: these things were also sort of blown up in the media.

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Speaker 4: But after JFK died, Jackie was still young. She was

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Speaker 4: sort of, you know, one of the most famous women

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Speaker 4: in the world, and what was her dating life like

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Speaker 4: kind of between JFK and on Nassis, like, who were

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Speaker 4: the major figures?

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Speaker 9: Well, to answer your question, there was one major figure,

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Speaker 9: and that was Jack Warnike, the architect, who I had

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Speaker 9: the great pleasure of knowing, and he was such a

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Speaker 9: great guy, and he designed JFK's memorial at Arlington. In

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Speaker 9: about six months after JFK was gone, he and Jackie

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Speaker 9: started dating. And it was difficult for her at first

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Speaker 9: because she was in such grief over jack and she

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Speaker 9: was suffering for such PTSD. But she really wanted to

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Speaker 9: get on with her life, and he really wanted to

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Speaker 9: be the one, you know, and as I wrote in

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Speaker 9: the book, it was it was a complicated relationship, but

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Speaker 9: he I believe from what he told me, from knowing him,

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Speaker 9: that he really loved her, and I think she really

357
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Speaker 9: loved him too. He was such a good man, and

358
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Speaker 9: he was sturdy. He knew JFK. He had worked with

359
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Speaker 9: JFK on Lafayette Park, so they had that history together,

360
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Speaker 9: and he was a good guy and they what's astonishing

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Speaker 9: about it is that they were He asked her to

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Speaker 9: marry him.

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Speaker 1: She agreed.

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Speaker 9: So you're thinking about Jackie Kennedy being arguably the most

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Speaker 9: famous woman in the world at that time. We're talking

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Speaker 9: about sixty five, sixty six, sixty seven who was more

367
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Speaker 9: famous than Jackie Kennedy. Yet how did we not know

368
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Speaker 9: about this guy? You know? That's the thing that really

369
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Speaker 9: I mean. I asked jack I said, how did all

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Speaker 9: this happen? And nobody knew about it? And he said,

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Speaker 9: back then, you didn't talk about it. Nobody knew about it.

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Speaker 9: You know, today, if the most famous woman in the

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Speaker 9: world was engaged to somebody, you would definitely know about it,

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Speaker 9: you know. I don't know who that would be. You know,

375
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Speaker 9: who's the most famous woman in the world is right now?

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Speaker 9: I don't know, but you know, certainly it's whoever that

377
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Speaker 9: is if she was engaged to be married, it would

378
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Speaker 9: be on TMZ right. And Jackie was able to keep

379
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Speaker 9: this private. No one knew about to be honest with you,

380
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Speaker 9: no one knew about it until I wrote about it, right,

381
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Speaker 9: and jackie public private secret. You know that's I mean

382
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Speaker 9: in that it was like sixty years later, you know,

383
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Speaker 9: so it's an incredible thing, you know that celebrities could

384
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Speaker 9: have that kind of like kind of a secret back then.

385
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Speaker 9: But he he was crazy about her, and she was

386
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Speaker 9: crazy about him as well.

387
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Speaker 1: And she didn't seek out the publicity, which is interesting, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, I the relationship between Jackie and the press more

389
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Speaker 4: broadly is interesting because it seems to me, at least

390
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Speaker 4: that on one level she enjoyed the attention, but on

391
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Speaker 4: another level, she was fiercely private and did not, you know,

392
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Speaker 4: often give interviews. And I'm sure that she felt burned after,

393
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Speaker 4: you know, being the literal first lady where every move

394
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Speaker 4: she made was so meticulously tracked that maybe this was

395
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Speaker 4: sort of a response to that. To want to be

396
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Speaker 4: more private. But how long did that relationship last.

397
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Speaker 9: Well, it lasted from sixty four to sixty seven. And

398
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Speaker 9: then how it ended was that jack warnick. He had

399
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Speaker 9: spent a fortune on trying to give Jackie the lifestyle

400
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 9: to which she had long become accustomed, right, And he

401
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 9: was spending money on helicopters, and he rented a house

402
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 9: in Hawaii, and you know, he they went on a

403
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 9: Hawaii vacation and took the kids, and you know, she

404
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 9: had no reason to believe that this was any kind

405
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 9: of a strain on him, because he certainly never showed that.

406
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Speaker 9: And then his business started going under because he was

407
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 9: spending so much time with her and he was spending

408
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 9: so much money on her that he ended up about

409
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 9: a million dollars in debt. And so he called her

410
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 9: one day and he said, listen to something that I

411
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Speaker 9: got to tell you. You know, I hope it's not

412
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 9: going to change anything between us, but I'm about a

413
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 9: million dollars in debt, and I think you should know that.

414
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Speaker 9: And her response to this was oh, right. That's when

415
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 9: she said, oh. And he said, well, I hope this

416
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 9: isn't going to change anything. And she said oh, okay,

417
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 9: I'll get back to you, and she hung up. And

418
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 9: he knew in that moment it had changed. And he

419
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 9: told me he had no idea. He told me that

420
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 9: Aristotle on Nassis was hovering. He said, if I knew

421
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 9: that one of the richest men in the world was

422
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 9: in her midst never would I have ever told her

423
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Speaker 9: that I was in debt. But he didn't know. And Jackie,

424
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Speaker 9: really she was torn about this because her mom was like, Okay,

425
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Speaker 9: well that's the end of him, and her mom loved

426
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 9: jack warnikey, but you know, look, Janet felt like he

427
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 9: had lied to all of them about his finances. She

428
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 9: wasn't concerned about his indebtedness as much as she was

429
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 9: concerned about how did we not know this? And she

430
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 9: told Jackie these famous words, which I think are so great,

431
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 9: would you never hear anymore? You better wake up and

432
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 9: smell the coffee, She told her. You better wake up

433
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 9: and smell the coffee. She said, because if you marry him,

434
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 9: his debt is going to be your debt then, and

435
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 9: you're never going to be able to come out of it.

436
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 9: And so Jackie made the decision reluctantly. I have to say,

437
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 9: but she made the decision that, you know, she was

438
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 9: not going to continue with Jack, and then that's how

439
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 9: she ended up with Onassis. Right. They remain friends, she

440
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 9: and Jack Warnicky all the way to her dead. They

441
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 9: remained very close friends, and around her sixtieth birthday, Jack

442
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 9: Warnikey finally asked her, after all these years, what the

443
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 9: heck were you thinking? Right like? Onasas and I are

444
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 9: about as far apart on the map of romance that

445
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 9: you can ever get. What was it that you saw

446
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 9: in him? And Jackie said to Jack, Oh, Jack, you

447
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 9: know me. I have three lives public, private, and secret,

448
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 9: which is where I got the title the book from.

449
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 8: So is there any way to know what her like

450
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 8: net worth would have been around that time that a

451
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 8: million dollars would have ruined her?

452
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 7: It seems to me like she was so wealthy at

453
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 7: that time.

454
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 9: She was not. That's the thing, you know, she she

455
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 9: was not. She she needed to figure out a way

456
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 9: forward because the Kennedy's had just, you know, they had

457
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 9: not been generous with her. A lot of people think

458
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 9: she had all this Kennedy money. She didn't, you know,

459
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 9: she really did not. And her stepfather, who she loved

460
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,239
Speaker 9: very much, Hugh Auchincloss was very wealthy, but he had

461
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 9: already made it very clear that his money was going

462
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 9: to be going to his natural children, not to Jackie

463
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 9: and not to Lee and Jack Bouvier. Her father his

464
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 9: money when he died, it was all there was nothing

465
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 9: there at all. Now Janet had money from her husband, Hugh,

466
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 9: but she did not offer it to Jackie or Lee.

467
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 9: She told both Jackie and Lee, you got to figure

468
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 9: this out, you know, because you've been living this lifestyle

469
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 9: for many, many years. Since you were thirteen years old

470
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 9: and you moved into this house with my husband, you've

471
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 9: been living He's sent you to Europe. You was you know,

472
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 9: you have been abroad, You've been a debutante. You but

473
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 9: you don't have any money, right so you got kids

474
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 9: and you've you've got to figure this out. You're not

475
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 9: going to be able to live off of my money forever.

476
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 9: So yeah, No, a million dollars in debt at that

477
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 9: time was not a thing that Jack That's why jan said,

478
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 9: wake up and small the coffee. You you already don't

479
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 9: have any money now you're going to be in debt,

480
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 9: you know, so people don't know that. And I think

481
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 9: that if people understood that they would better understand why

482
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 9: she ended up with on asses, you know, because it

483
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 9: was survival really, it was like and it was you know,

484
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 9: the mom saying, you know, what are you going to do?

485
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 9: And the pressure of being Jacqueline Kennedy and kind of

486
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 9: feeling like a fake, you know, kind of feeling well,

487
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 9: you know, everybody thinks I'm this particular person, and I

488
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 9: certainly have this image. But when it comes right down

489
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 9: to it, what do I really have? You know, I

490
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 9: don't really have anything, you know. And so yeah, no,

491
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 9: a million dollars would have not been good to be

492
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 9: in debt at that time for Jackie.

493
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 8: So also, was there any truth to the many many

494
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 8: rumors that we see.

495
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 7: About her and Bobby.

496
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 9: Oh no, there's no truth to that at all, you know.

497
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 9: I mean, look, I did a lot of research into

498
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 9: that twenty five years ago when I wrote Jackie, Ethel

499
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 9: and Joan, which was about Jackie and her sisters in law,

500
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 9: Ethel Kennedy and Joan Kennedy, and I did a deep

501
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 9: dive into that, and I could not find any evidence

502
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 9: to support it, not ever. And then, you know, and

503
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 9: it's the kind of thing where you really have to

504
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 9: think that, well, these were real, actual people, and people

505
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 9: you know today we think of them as sort of

506
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 9: cartoon characters in the way we don't think of them

507
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 9: as real people. What would it take for a woman

508
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 9: who who witnessed her husband being murdered, right to then

509
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 9: jump in bed with his brother, right? I mean it's like,

510
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 9: what are you talking about? And what would it take

511
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 9: for a brother who his own brother was just assassinated

512
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 9: to then jump into bed with his sister in law

513
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 9: his brother's wife. Like, these people would never do these things.

514
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 9: So these rumors are just so like they're they're created

515
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 9: by people who don't understand the humanity of the of

516
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 9: the folks were talking about. And if you knew Jackie,

517
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 9: you knew that this would never happen. And Bobby too,

518
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 9: which just never happened. So I still needed to look

519
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 9: into it because you never know, anything's possible, right, But no,

520
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 9: absolutely not.

521
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's interesting. It's like, on the.

522
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 8: One hand, that is something that happens, the trauma bonding

523
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 8: and the intimacy that's there and the like desire to

524
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 8: be you know, close with somebody who understands you know.

525
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: But then on the.

526
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 8: Other hand, it's just so hard to believe that there

527
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 8: would be no evidence, and it's just interesting that it's

528
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 8: still so pervasive like this rumor.

529
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 9: Well, because it's because it's partially true. They did have

530
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 9: an emotional relationship, and Ethel did feel cut out because

531
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 9: of it. And it's because Jackie was so wounded and

532
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 9: Bobby was so wounded, and Ethel was so strong in

533
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 9: her faith that Bobby couldn't connect on this level because

534
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 9: Ethel's view was, well, jack is in heaven with you know,

535
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 9: with God, and he's in a better place. And for

536
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 9: Jackie and Bobby, that was just not true. For Jackie

537
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 9: and Bobby, they felt like they'd been robbed of somebody

538
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 9: they loved and he was not in a better place.

539
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 9: A better place would be right here, you know. So

540
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 9: Ethel's religion in a sense sort of alienated Bobby during

541
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 9: this period of time, and so he and Jackie felt

542
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 9: alike about these things and that's kind of what bonded them.

543
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 9: So they did have I mean, I would I would

544
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 9: be safe to say they had an emotional affair, but

545
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 9: I would definitely not say that it ever turned physical.

546
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 9: But trauma bonding is a great way of putting it.

547
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 9: I love that you said that, because I maybe I've

548
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 9: never heard that phrase before, you know, but I think

549
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 9: that that's that really does say it.

550
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 4: So speaking of unsubstantiated rumors, you know, while we have

551
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 4: you here, before we get to Anassis, I mean, there's

552
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 4: all these people, you know, Paul Newman, Warren Badie or

553
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 4: Robert Redford. There's all these you know, big sort of

554
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 4: a less celebrities that were on and off attached to Jackie.

555
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 4: What is your you know what's true and what's false? Well,

556
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 4: most everything is false. But I do like the Warren

557
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 4: Batty of it all because I like the story of

558
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 4: Warren Batty. You know, they went out on a couple

559
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 4: of dates. He was beautiful, she was beautiful. They looked

560
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 4: great together.

561
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 9: But the problem that they had was that Warren Batty

562
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 9: would not stop talking about himself, and he wouldn't stop

563
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 9: talking about show business and the movies and his life.

564
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 9: And you know, he was at this point in his career.

565
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 9: He was young, and he was all about his career

566
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 9: and all about himself. And I think so many people

567
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 9: could relate to this because when this came out in

568
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 9: my book, I got so much mail from people saying

569
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 9: that happened to me, that happened to me, and what

570
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 9: it is. What happened was he had talked about himself

571
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 9: all night long, and he brought Jackie to her front door,

572
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 9: and just as she was about to go and completely

573
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 9: frustrated about with this date, he said to her, so

574
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 9: how about you? How are you doing? Right? Like, right

575
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 9: before she was getting ready to just walk away from him.

576
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 9: He had talked about himself all night long and then

577
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 9: he was like, oh, you know, we never mentioned you,

578
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 9: how are you doing? You know, she's Jacqueline on Asses.

579
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 9: You'd think he'd be interested, right and he wasn't. And

580
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 9: that was it for him, you know Jackie. Jackie said, well,

581
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 9: you know, you really can't expect much from men these days,

582
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 9: you know, like she she was just like so over

583
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 9: him and so done with him. And that was the

584
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 9: end of Warren Bady.

585
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 7: What year would that have been.

586
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 9: I believe that was in the seventies, So it was

587
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 9: after it was after Onassas and before Maurice Temple's mean, yeah,

588
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 9: and so before we get to Onassas, which we should soon.

589
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 4: It seems like maybe another slightly more serious relationship was

590
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 4: David ormsby Gore right before before slash during maybe onassas

591
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 4: so I forgot about him. Yeah, yeah, it seems like

592
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 4: Jackie did as well at some point. So what was

593
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 4: the story there. I mean, he was he worked for JFK, right,

594
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 4: he did JFK. He was you know, he worked, he

595
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 4: was part of the cabinet. He was crazy about her,

596
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 4: and you know, he made the mistake of telling people

597
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 4: that they were getting married, and they may have talked

598
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 4: about it, and you know in a sort of shadowed

599
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 4: way maybe one day, you.

600
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 9: Know, you never know. But she was, you know, she

601
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 9: was really lukewarm on him, but you know, he was

602
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 9: nice and he was a connection to JFK and so

603
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 9: she sort of liked being around him. But I mean,

604
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 9: at one point, Lady Bird Johnson got a letter from

605
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 9: somebody saying, did you know that Jackie is getting married

606
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 9: to this guy? And I think that lady were called

607
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 9: Jackie so the congratulations, I understand that you're getting married,

608
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 9: and she was like, what you know? And and that's

609
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 9: that's kind of when ended that relationship, you know, I

610
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 9: mean that I guess he's just like he jumped the

611
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 9: gun and he was so excited about maybe, you know,

612
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 9: I don't know what conversation they had that maybe that

613
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 9: may have given him that impression, but it was definitely

614
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 9: not the right impression.

615
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: And then he pretty.

616
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 4: Much got engaged to Onassis within a few months of

617
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 4: this relationship ending, right, Yeah, I.

618
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 9: Mean she was with Onasas within a few months of

619
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 9: Jack Warnikey and David was just a blip. Jack Warnekey

620
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 9: was a more unimportant figure, and after Warnicky was out

621
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 9: of the picture, NASAs started coming around, and you know,

622
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 9: he was charming and Greek and interesting and charismatic, and

623
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 9: he started giving her presents and he wanted to be

624
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 9: there for her, and you know, weirdly enough, he had

625
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 9: been at the White House after JFK's assassination, which blew

626
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 9: me away when I've when I learned about that and

627
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 9: wrote about that. You know, what the heck was he

628
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 9: doing there in the White House? Are you kidding me?

629
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 9: In the days after the assassination, on Nassas was at

630
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 9: the White House. But he had been kind of had

631
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 9: his sights on Jackie for a long time, and when

632
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,959
Speaker 9: she was completely available, he sort of made his move.

633
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 9: And Onassis always got pretty much what he want wanted.

634
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 9: That was the way he lived his life and the

635
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 9: next thing, you know, he's with Jackie.

636
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 4: And you know, to address the elephant in the room,

637
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 4: you know, Jackie, you know, she didn't want to be

638
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 4: cheated on again after JFK. She you know, had this

639
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 4: romance with jack Wernickey was more protective of herself. But then,

640
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 4: of course, famously Onasas was carrying out affairs during their

641
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 4: time together.

642
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: So what was that like.

643
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 9: Well, the difference is that Jackie wasn't in love with him. Yeah,

644
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 9: so it was hurtful, but it didn't hurt the same

645
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 9: way as JFK did. And she also had the coping

646
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 9: skills in place by that time to know how to

647
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 9: deal with this. And she knew what she was getting

648
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 9: into with Onassis in the sense that you know, she

649
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 9: knew by Maria Kallis and they had a deal on place,

650
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,399
Speaker 9: and it was a money deal. And I mean it's

651
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 9: not to say that he wasn't nice to her, and

652
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 9: he was and he and you know, I think in

653
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 9: Jackie Public Private Secret, you get a whole different picture

654
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 9: of Onassis than you've ever gotten before because as he's

655
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 9: becoming more debilitated and he's going back to Hammersmith and

656
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 9: he's with her mom and you start to see a

657
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 9: different side of Onassas than you've ever seen before. And

658
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 9: Janet balking Cross actually grows to love this guy, her

659
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 9: son in law, who she hated at the beginning because

660
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 9: she told him very specifically, you will not come between

661
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 9: my daughters. And of course that's exactly what he did,

662
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 9: you know. But while the one thing I've learned about

663
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 9: people in my books, about the Kennedys is that you know,

664
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 9: we go through changes, changes, we go through right and

665
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 9: just because you feel one way at one point doesn't

666
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 9: mean that's how you're always going to feel. And Janet

667
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 9: and Hugh grew to really love Aristotle Onasses and so

668
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 9: did Jackie, you know, and she was very protective of

669
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 9: him when he was sick, right before he died. And

670
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 9: it's stuff is not black and white. You know. People

671
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 9: ask me all the time, what was Jackie like? What

672
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 9: was Jackie like? And I always say to them, when

673
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 9: exactly are you talking about? Because she's not the same

674
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 9: person in nineteen sixty that she is in nineteen seventy.

675
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 9: I knew Jackie in the nineteen eighties, you know. Jackie

676
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 9: was my first editor at Double Day, and that's when

677
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 9: I knew her, and when I'm sitting across from her

678
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 9: in the nineteen eighties, I could tell right then and

679
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 9: there that she wasn't the same woman that she was

680
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 9: as she was as First Lady in nineteen sixty during

681
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 9: the tour of the White House. Them are like two

682
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 9: different people to me, you know.

683
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 8: Even the I think about the pictures of her standing

684
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 8: next to JFK and the pictures of her with Onassis,

685
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 8: and it's like, she looks so fashionable in a completely

686
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 8: different way and looks so kind of care free, and

687
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 8: it's just it's very opposite.

688
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 9: Yeah, I was going to say, you know, she never

689
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 9: wanted to be America's widow. That was her whole thing.

690
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 3: You know.

691
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 9: After JFK was dead, she told Teddy White, to whom

692
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 9: she sort of crafted the Camelot mythology the night after

693
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 9: Thanksgiving in nineteen sixty three, when she called Teddy White

694
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 9: to Hayanasport and spun this sort of mythology about Camelot

695
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 9: that he then wrote about and it became it became history.

696
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 9: Told him And it's funny because I just looked at

697
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 9: his notes the other day because I'm working on something

698
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 9: about this, and she said very specifically, and he wrote

699
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 9: it be in his own handwriting, I do not want

700
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 9: to be the widow Kennedy. And she knew that she

701
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 9: was all that America had left of JFK, but she

702
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 9: just did not want that. And so I think that

703
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 9: what you see when you see her with Onassis and

704
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 9: she's glamorous and care free, and what you see is

705
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,479
Speaker 9: all of that having been lifted from her. And now

706
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 9: she feels that she can live a life that she

707
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 9: created that maybe people don't understand, but it's hers. She

708
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 9: made it, and it's good. You know, she was not

709
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,479
Speaker 9: miserable during the Onasis years.

710
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 4: I can tell you that speaking of her sort of

711
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 4: evolution throughout the year is one of the things I

712
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 4: found interesting was her evolution in terms of her thoughts

713
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 4: about the roles of men and women. Because when she's

714
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 4: with JFK, you know, there's this she always says, you know,

715
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 4: Jack is always right, like he knows best, like you know,

716
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 4: I defer to him. Then there this middle period where

717
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 4: she's sort of empowered enough to be you know, quote

718
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 4: unquote dating around and it feels like she is making

719
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 4: decisions with her own future in mind and everything.

720
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: And then I.

721
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 4: Mean one of the things you talk about in the book,

722
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 4: which I did not know before, was that she dated

723
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 4: the director of I think Zorba the Greek Oh yeah,

724
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 4: sort of after Onassa's and when she was considering going

725
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 4: back to work and working as an editor, he didn't

726
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 4: want her to work, but then she defied him, which

727
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 4: is very different than her attitude when she was dating

728
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 4: JFK when she was younger. So I guess if this

729
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 4: is building to any question, it would be you know,

730
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 4: how do you conceive of her evolution in terms of,

731
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 4: if anything, her personal politics or her, for lack of

732
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 4: a better term, relationship to feminism.

733
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 9: Well, you know, she is really a symbol of growing

734
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 9: feminism in America at that time. I just thought it

735
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 9: was so astonishing that in her oral history, you know,

736
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 9: you hear her say I would never have voted for

737
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 9: someone that Jack didn't vote for like that w never

738
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 9: occurred to It never would occur to me. Jack knew

739
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 9: what was best. I would only vote for who Jack

740
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 9: would vote for. And that's not just Jackie, that was

741
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 9: women at that time. Women didn't you know, women of

742
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 9: that time and place would vote for whoever their husband's

743
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 9: voted for. They didn't do their own research and make

744
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 9: their own decisions about that. They voted for who their

745
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 9: husbands voted for. But then, you know, Jackie was a

746
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 9: product of the you know, the sixties and then the

747
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 9: seventies and feminism and then moving into the eighties, and

748
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 9: just as women all over the country were growing, so

749
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 9: was she until until she got to a point when

750
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 9: she was dating that particular man whose name I do

751
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 9: not remember. I wish, I mean, and I wrote about him.

752
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 9: So maybe you guys can figure that out when you

753
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 9: when you yeah, Michael, Oh yes, okay. So when she

754
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 9: started dating Michael, the problem with him was that he

755
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 9: was very much like on NASA's you know, he was Greek,

756
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 9: and that's what attracted her to him in the first place.

757
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 9: But then she remembered that on didn't want her to

758
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 9: work either. And then this guy was telling her, well,

759
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 9: you know, I don't think he should work, and she

760
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 9: had this great job opportunity and she said, well, I'm

761
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 9: going to take it, and he said, no, I don't

762
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 9: think women should work, and she said, see you right,

763
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 9: that wasn't who she was anymore. She wanted to work,

764
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 9: she wanted to contribute. She didn't need the money by

765
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 9: this time, of course, on Nassas was dead. She was very,

766
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 9: very wealthy. She didn't need the money, she needed the work.

767
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 9: She needed to be someone, and that's what she did.

768
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: Well.

769
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 4: I want to be conscious of your time, and also

770
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 4: my internet seems to be going in and out, so Lyra,

771
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 4: please feel free to take over if you have any

772
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 4: final questions.

773
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 8: Okay, yeah, well I do have one.

774
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 7: She made out with Robert Redford?

775
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: Yes she did.

776
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 9: Yes, I mean, I can't believe you remember that she did.

777
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 9: She made out with Robert Redford. But I was along

778
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 9: the lines of who wouldn't.

779
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 7: I know, That's why I have to bring it.

780
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 9: Up, you know, who wouldn't I mean? But at that time,

781
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 9: in the nineteen late seventies, you know, Robert Redford was

782
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 9: doing The Great Gatsby and they were filming it at Hammersmith,

783
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 9: which is where Jackie grew up. And they ran into

784
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 9: each other, and if I recall from what I wrote,

785
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 9: you know, they've snuck off and they started making out

786
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 9: like behind some rocks, like high school kids, and Jackie

787
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 9: was like, he's Robert Redford, I mean, come on, and

788
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 9: he was like she's Jackie, Oh, are you kidding? Me, right,

789
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 9: And I love that story because it's very human. But

790
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 9: that's as far as it went. You know, there was

791
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 9: nothing else. It was just that. And if it wasn't

792
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 9: for the fact that it was Jackie and Robert Redford,

793
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 9: we wouldn't even care, you know, But yet that did happen.

794
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm very interested in your process of writing this book,

795
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 8: Like there's so many fully realized scenes, I would say,

796
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 8: with intimate conversations, and just how do you get there

797
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 8: from research and interviews?

798
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 7: What's your process?

799
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 9: The way I get there is that I am unrelenting

800
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 9: with my sources. With somebody like Jack Warnerkey, I talked

801
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 9: to him so many times, and I would call him

802
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 9: as I do Jamie Auchinclaus, Jackie's half brother, and I

803
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 9: would say, what is it that you said exactly? Like

804
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 9: I need to know exactly what happened? You know, people

805
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 9: are used to telling stories and broad strokes. Well, then

806
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 9: you know, she came over and then we went out,

807
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 9: and then after about two hours I brought her back home.

808
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 9: I want to know about those two hours, right, what

809
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 9: exactly did you say? What does she say? And this

810
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 9: drives my sources crazy, you know, I just interviewed Marilyn

811
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 9: Monroe's best friend and publishist Pat Newcomb for my JFK

812
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,720
Speaker 9: Public Private Secret book that just came out, and Pat

813
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 9: Newcomb said something to me that really made me laugh.

814
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 9: She said, I have to tell you, I don't spend

815
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 9: a lot of time thinking about what my friends did

816
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 9: sixty five years ago, right, But I told her, if

817
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 9: your friend is Marilyn Monroe, I think it's a little

818
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 9: bit different. I think you can probably remember some of

819
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 9: these moments, you know. And she did and she did.

820
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 9: And to answer your question, that's how I do it.

821
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 8: You know.

822
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 9: I reconstruct conversations based on what the people who are

823
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 9: having the conversations told me they said and what they

824
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 9: what the responses were to me. It's more interesting to

825
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 9: do it that way than just have jack Warnicky quoted

826
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 9: as saying, I told Jackie this, and Jackie told me that.

827
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 9: Then I told Jackie this, and Jackie told me that.

828
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 9: I actually wanted to be able to reconstruct that to

829
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 9: bring the reader into their world. And that's what I do.

830
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 7: It's great.

831
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Yeah, thank you so much.

832
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 4: Was this was really great? And again the book we

833
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 4: read is Jackie Public Private Secret, but the new one

834
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 4: that is coming out that I think will be out

835
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 4: by the time by the time this episode airs is

836
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 4: JFK public Private Secret. Yes, thank you guys, I really

837
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 4: appreciate it. I had a good time talking to you.

838
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 9: Thanks so much.

839
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 7: So that's it for this week's episode.

840
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 4: Next week we're talking about the Goternet's on and off

841
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 4: boyfriend Jack Schlosberg.

842
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 8: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all

843
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 8: things Kennedy every week.