1
00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

2
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

3
00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,480
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

4
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,599
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

5
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

6
00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,560
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

7
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,280
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

8
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,199
Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

9
00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,400
Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with

10
00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:57,400
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

11
00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,200
Speaker 1: for joining me for session one of the Therapy for

12
00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,280
Speaker 1: Black Girls Podcast. This week, I'm sharing a conversation I

13
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,759
Speaker 1: had with Ashley mcgert, a clinical social worker based out

14
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,360
Speaker 1: of Seattle, Washington, about living well. Based on her experiences

15
00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,240
Speaker 1: as a hospice therapist, Ashley is passionate about teaching individuals

16
00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 1: how to live well so they can die well. Her

17
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,520
Speaker 1: work in hospice has helped her to really stress the

18
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 1: importance of living will in her private practice, where she

19
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:32,240
Speaker 1: treats primarily millennials of color suffering from racial trauma, anxiety,

20
00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,440
Speaker 1: and depression. Ashley and I chatted about the kinds of

21
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:41,040
Speaker 1: concerns her clients discussed while in hospice, how family members

22
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,240
Speaker 1: of those in hospice can take care of themselves, the

23
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,800
Speaker 1: impact that race related stress is having on the mortality

24
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 1: rate of black people, and her tips for living a

25
00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,320
Speaker 1: life without regret. If you hear something while listening that

26
00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: really speaks to you, please be sure to share it

27
00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,840
Speaker 1: with us on social media using hashtag tv G in session.

28
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,800
Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today, Ashley.

29
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah.

30
00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,440
Speaker 1: So I want to talk with you more about your work.

31
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,320
Speaker 1: So you have, I think a very unique feel that

32
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,160
Speaker 1: not a lot of us are working in. You work

33
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,040
Speaker 1: a lot with hospice clients, So can you tell us

34
00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,200
Speaker 1: a little bit about your work? Would you do there? Yes, So,

35
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,639
Speaker 1: as a hospice therapist, my role is really to provide

36
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,079
Speaker 1: emotional support to those who are dying. I sometimes work

37
00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,720
Speaker 1: with the families as well, but for the most part,

38
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 1: after my patient dies, we prefer the family members to

39
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,360
Speaker 1: grief support services. So my role is really just to

40
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:47,239
Speaker 1: have a conversation with patients about their terminal illness, their

41
00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 1: thoughts around death, really how they live, whatever they want

42
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 1: to talk about, because oftentimes people do have the misconception

43
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,919
Speaker 1: that I'm coming just to talk about death, which that's

44
00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 1: not the only thing that I talked about. It's really

45
00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,799
Speaker 1: making sure that they're comfortable, they're emotionally prepared, that they're

46
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:11,240
Speaker 1: not depressed or anxious around their illness and around their deaths,

47
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,800
Speaker 1: so that they have from the sort of preparation and

48
00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,520
Speaker 1: can feel more comfortable given what's going on. MMMM. So

49
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,200
Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit more about what that

50
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,400
Speaker 1: preparation looks like, Like what kinds of things are you

51
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 1: talking about? We're really talking about the life that they lived,

52
00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,880
Speaker 1: any fears that they have circulating around us, because oftentimes

53
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,760
Speaker 1: the fears that individuals have are things that they didn't finish,

54
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,320
Speaker 1: things that they didn't accomplish, things that they still want

55
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,880
Speaker 1: to do. So if there's any way that I can

56
00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,040
Speaker 1: still incorporate that into their lives at the end of life,

57
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,400
Speaker 1: that's something that I work with my team to try

58
00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 1: and do. There's some things that we can't necessarily do,

59
00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 1: Like I had one patient who always went to Palm

60
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,640
Speaker 1: Springs and she wanted to go to Palm Springs one

61
00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,400
Speaker 1: last time. That wasn't possible, but we brought in kind

62
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 1: of like some mop palm trees, some fun just like

63
00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,240
Speaker 1: beach atmosphere, and we really brought the palm spring vibe

64
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,960
Speaker 1: to her home here in Seattle where she was living.

65
00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,000
Speaker 1: So things like that are some of the conversations that

66
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,320
Speaker 1: I have. I also talk a lot about religion and

67
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,200
Speaker 1: faith because sometimes that's why individuals have certain fears are hopes.

68
00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,200
Speaker 1: We also have a chaplain who also is there for

69
00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,680
Speaker 1: spirituality purposes, but it comes up a lot in my

70
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,560
Speaker 1: conversation during the end of life. So I learned a

71
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,760
Speaker 1: lot about different belief systems and just thoughts that people

72
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,560
Speaker 1: have about the dying process. Mm hmm okay. And I

73
00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,960
Speaker 1: know we often see like lots of means or lots

74
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,160
Speaker 1: of like what do you call them, like information or

75
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,159
Speaker 1: motivational quotes, talking about like at the end of life,

76
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,560
Speaker 1: nobody is thinking about how many hours you worry, but

77
00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,039
Speaker 1: more about like who you were to your family and

78
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,320
Speaker 1: the impact that you made. So I'm wondering if things

79
00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:58,559
Speaker 1: like that come up, like are their conversations around regrets, Yes,

80
00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,160
Speaker 1: there is, and that mean it's so accurate because at

81
00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,920
Speaker 1: the end of life, I've learned so much and sitting

82
00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,120
Speaker 1: at the bedside of the dying, it really is about

83
00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,040
Speaker 1: the things that they regretted, those who are in their life,

84
00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 1: um the people that they loved. And there was actually

85
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,680
Speaker 1: a palliative care nurse who compiled all of the different

86
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,120
Speaker 1: conversations that she had with those who are dying, and

87
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,920
Speaker 1: she created what's called the five Regrets of the Dying,

88
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,719
Speaker 1: and that's actually something that I hear amongst so many

89
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,320
Speaker 1: of my patients. And then on the bright side, I

90
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,920
Speaker 1: do have patients who actually don't have any regrets. They're

91
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,880
Speaker 1: happy with the life that they lived, and they're really ready.

92
00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,599
Speaker 1: I have patience to tell me like, look, I'm ready

93
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,719
Speaker 1: to meet Jesus, this is my time. I know what

94
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,440
Speaker 1: I did here on earth was good. And then there's

95
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,239
Speaker 1: those other individuals who really do regret and they're sad

96
00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,680
Speaker 1: at this stage in life, especially with my black patients,

97
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,200
Speaker 1: because I am seeing and experiencing so many black patients

98
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,520
Speaker 1: dying a lot earlier than they should, whereas my white

99
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,440
Speaker 1: patients there well in their hundreds. So at that point

100
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 1: they feel like their life is complete and they can

101
00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,560
Speaker 1: now take on the next stage of life, whatever that

102
00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 1: may be. For them mmmmm. So I would imagine if

103
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,960
Speaker 1: you're seeing people dying, you know, much earlier in life,

104
00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 1: there would maybe be some regrets, but also probably some

105
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,479
Speaker 1: confusion and maybe frustration and anger about the fact that

106
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,719
Speaker 1: they didn't have more time, so to speak exactly, lots

107
00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 1: of confusion. Some of the top regrets are just really

108
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,360
Speaker 1: that they didn't live the life that they wanted to,

109
00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 1: that they spent so much time working, not enough time

110
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,920
Speaker 1: with their family, a lot of things like well if

111
00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 1: I worked so hard, or if I didn't do this,

112
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,800
Speaker 1: some things of what I call destructive thinking, so a

113
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,320
Speaker 1: lot of should have, could have wouldas I really try

114
00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,160
Speaker 1: to deter my hospice patients from that pattern because it

115
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,960
Speaker 1: can cause a lot of depression and anxiety. So I

116
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,839
Speaker 1: really try to focus on the positive aspects of their life.

117
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,680
Speaker 1: But there's also time just to allow them to vent

118
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,479
Speaker 1: and get out everything that they wanted to because I

119
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,120
Speaker 1: learned so much in their regrets, and then there's also

120
00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,320
Speaker 1: potential of the possibility for them to maybe make those

121
00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,840
Speaker 1: things come true, like Okay, well you couldn't do it then,

122
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,560
Speaker 1: but what can you do now? Who can show up

123
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,440
Speaker 1: in your life at this moment for you how can

124
00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,200
Speaker 1: you be happier even in this stage of end of life,

125
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,720
Speaker 1: because that's one of the biggest regrets also that you know,

126
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:32,160
Speaker 1: I wish I let myself be happier. Mm mmmmmmmmmmm. So

127
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 1: you said that you do work some with the families,

128
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 1: and I know we often hear about, you know, how

129
00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,320
Speaker 1: death or end of life can really just cause a

130
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,720
Speaker 1: family to unravel in lots of different ways. So I'm

131
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 1: wondering if there's work that you have had to do

132
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,200
Speaker 1: just around kind of helping the family to take care

133
00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,920
Speaker 1: of themselves while they're trying to support their loved one. Yeah.

134
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 1: So my work with the family is really focused around

135
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,880
Speaker 1: caregiver burnout. So what I see is that a family

136
00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 1: member will want to spend all of their time with

137
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,080
Speaker 1: the family member that dying. They oftentimes won't even shower,

138
00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 1: won't even take care of their own personal hygiene because

139
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,920
Speaker 1: there's this fear that if they leave, they're going to

140
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,800
Speaker 1: miss the moment and their family members going to die.

141
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,040
Speaker 1: And we have a whole care team that comes with hospice,

142
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,200
Speaker 1: So I really try to symphasize that to the caregivers

143
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 1: and let them know, like, hey, it's important for you

144
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,000
Speaker 1: to take a break. You need to take a break.

145
00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 1: I still encourage them to do the things that they

146
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,360
Speaker 1: used to do prior to taking care of a relative

147
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 1: with the terminal illness, and that's important, especially so that

148
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,400
Speaker 1: they can still continue to have that rhythm. So once

149
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,719
Speaker 1: that person dies, they're still you know, going on their

150
00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,280
Speaker 1: daily walks because that was something they consistently did even

151
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,600
Speaker 1: while they're taking care of the person. And I do

152
00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,400
Speaker 1: things like helping them get a caregiver to relieve them,

153
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,800
Speaker 1: for rest it and just letting them know that it's okay.

154
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,000
Speaker 1: And sometimes I've even seen my patients where they actually

155
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,040
Speaker 1: won't die and sell that person leaves because they don't

156
00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,319
Speaker 1: necessarily want that family member to experience them dying. I

157
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,600
Speaker 1: will have a patient who will be holding on for

158
00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,360
Speaker 1: a long time, and we're like, okay, what are they

159
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,559
Speaker 1: holding on for? And then we'll ask the family members like, well,

160
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,240
Speaker 1: maybe if you kind of step out of the room

161
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,960
Speaker 1: or go to Starbucks, take a break, or see do something,

162
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,200
Speaker 1: go see a movie, and then we'll see that once

163
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,720
Speaker 1: they do actually leave, it allows the person to actually

164
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,760
Speaker 1: transition on, which is sometimes necessary, especially if they're in

165
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,360
Speaker 1: pain and they're suffering. We do want them to let go,

166
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 1: or I'll tell the family members to have a conversation

167
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 1: with them and let them know that it's okay, that

168
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,280
Speaker 1: you love them, that you're here, and that they you know,

169
00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,240
Speaker 1: they can transition on out of this world. So I

170
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 1: have a lot of those conversations about you know, if

171
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:56,720
Speaker 1: you need to step out of the rooms, you need

172
00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: to stay, what is it going to be like watching

173
00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 1: your I remember who you love die? And can you

174
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,880
Speaker 1: talk more about the whole idea of like you can

175
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 1: tell that they're holding on. There are certain size and

176
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 1: symptoms that we can tell. Oftentimes people want to know, like, well,

177
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,280
Speaker 1: when is my family members when I die? Well, no

178
00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,120
Speaker 1: one knows the exact day nor the hour, but the

179
00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,040
Speaker 1: body tells us a lot. So there's things such as

180
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,599
Speaker 1: aspirated breathing, the body starts making foul movements, they become incontinent.

181
00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,640
Speaker 1: So as we're saying that the body is literally dying

182
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,400
Speaker 1: and going through these stages, but the patient hasn't actually

183
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,480
Speaker 1: let go themselves, we as a team just in doing

184
00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,440
Speaker 1: this work and tell like, Okay, maybe they're holding on

185
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,040
Speaker 1: because there's someone that they want to see before they

186
00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,959
Speaker 1: actually die. So then I start asking the family questions, um,

187
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,880
Speaker 1: and I usually do this before that stage even gets there,

188
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 1: like is there someone that they would want to know

189
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 1: that they were dying, Is there a family member who

190
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 1: maybe lives on the other side of the country who

191
00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,439
Speaker 1: should come, who they want to see? And often times

192
00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,800
Speaker 1: I do see patients where they're waiting it out, and

193
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,559
Speaker 1: if they're able to verbalize that, sometimes they've actually told

194
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,719
Speaker 1: us like, yeah, I would like for my son to

195
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,719
Speaker 1: be here. Most of the times at this stage they

196
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 1: can't talk, but they're not letting go with their body

197
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,880
Speaker 1: shutting down, and they're holding on for that last last

198
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,000
Speaker 1: bit of something that they need before they can actually

199
00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,640
Speaker 1: go on to the next phase. And so it's really

200
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,679
Speaker 1: the saying attention to the body and then thinking, Okay,

201
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,800
Speaker 1: if the body is shutting down, but mentally, like they're

202
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,800
Speaker 1: holding on aspects of them is still here, So what

203
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,040
Speaker 1: else could it be? And that's when we start asking

204
00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,320
Speaker 1: questions and going back to some of the earlier questions

205
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,280
Speaker 1: I may have asked when they first came onto my caseload,

206
00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 1: And are there other kinds of questions that you're asking

207
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,240
Speaker 1: to kind of get us some of this information. Yeah,

208
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,720
Speaker 1: so I'm asking about the life that they lived, who

209
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 1: was there, who was important to them, what types of

210
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,160
Speaker 1: things brought them joy? And so when I hear those stories,

211
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,240
Speaker 1: and if I know, like, Okay, they spent a lot

212
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,959
Speaker 1: of time with their best friend for their children, and

213
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,280
Speaker 1: those are people who are really important to them that

214
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 1: they wouldn't want with them, uh in those life And

215
00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,320
Speaker 1: I also have family members who really don't want anyone around.

216
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,320
Speaker 1: I had one particular patient. I remember she had two

217
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,079
Speaker 1: twin boys, and she loved her son so much, but

218
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,080
Speaker 1: she didn't want them to know that she was dying,

219
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,000
Speaker 1: so she actually went through the dying process alone. I

220
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,439
Speaker 1: would encourage her a lot and really talk to her,

221
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,160
Speaker 1: but she didn't have to go through it alone because

222
00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,000
Speaker 1: I was really the only person that she had who

223
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,200
Speaker 1: she could talk to and she could sent to and

224
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,320
Speaker 1: provided her emotional support. At the end, she actually did

225
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,160
Speaker 1: agree to let her sons know what was happening, but

226
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,640
Speaker 1: unfortunately she died prior to even being able to communicate that.

227
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,559
Speaker 1: So I was the person who they called their sons

228
00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:52,959
Speaker 1: up and let her know, like, Hey, she loved you

229
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 1: so much, char and she was planning. She just didn't

230
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,680
Speaker 1: want you to carry carry that stress or have to

231
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,240
Speaker 1: put a life on hold because often times that that's

232
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,920
Speaker 1: what caregivers are doing. They have to take time away

233
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 1: from work for whatever they're doing, to show up for

234
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,480
Speaker 1: the family member who is sick. Got you okay? And

235
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,360
Speaker 1: I know a lot of your work actually is also

236
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,680
Speaker 1: related to kind of going back to your earlier comment

237
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,280
Speaker 1: about how many more black clients you're seeing kind of

238
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,760
Speaker 1: dying earlier in life. And so you do a lot

239
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 1: of work around racism and how chronic stress is leading

240
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,600
Speaker 1: to higher mortality rates. Can you talk a little bit

241
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,480
Speaker 1: about that, Yes, So, in addition to doing hospice therapy,

242
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,480
Speaker 1: I also have my own private practice where I focus

243
00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:40,040
Speaker 1: predominantly on millennials of color, and I also focus a

244
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,679
Speaker 1: lot on racial trauma. So really just healing from thematic

245
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 1: symptoms are those physical symptoms that manifest themselves in the body,

246
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,840
Speaker 1: because I see a lot of my black and brown

247
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,760
Speaker 1: hospitations dying as a result of chronic illnesses that are

248
00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:02,079
Speaker 1: stressed and do things like high blood pressure, strokes, heart attacks,

249
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:08,199
Speaker 1: certain cancers, diabetes, obesity, because oftentimes in the black community,

250
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 1: we're stress either, so we're taking on a lot of

251
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:16,640
Speaker 1: weight um African Americans, I literally die earlier from all

252
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 1: causes across the board, no matter what it is. We

253
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 1: see this in even maternal rates, so things of that nature.

254
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,600
Speaker 1: So in my practice, I'm really looking at the body

255
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 1: and healing from that stress and that trauma that's taken

256
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,040
Speaker 1: next place. A lot of things that we really miss

257
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,800
Speaker 1: place because we're resilient people, we don't often see it.

258
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,120
Speaker 1: It's like, no, I'm just going to power through. I'm fine,

259
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,360
Speaker 1: but then our body says, no, I have a headache,

260
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 1: I've got these neck pains for other things like that.

261
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:49,960
Speaker 1: But through progressive muscle relaxation and other tools and also education,

262
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,960
Speaker 1: just really making sure that the clients I serve in

263
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 1: my private practice are really aware of what's going on.

264
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,120
Speaker 1: I screen everybody for their A score so adverse childhood experiences,

265
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 1: because we know that childhood toxic stress leads to early

266
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,720
Speaker 1: mortality rights If you have an A score of six

267
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,040
Speaker 1: or higher, your life sans automatically decreased by twenty years.

268
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,120
Speaker 1: So a lot of my work is really bringing in

269
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,680
Speaker 1: like some resilience training, doing something to really counter that

270
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 1: so that they don't have to be on my hospice

271
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 1: caseload at fifty years old. And so I'm also really

272
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,240
Speaker 1: curious actually how you are taking care of yourself doing

273
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 1: this work. Really just leaning in all my support system

274
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,240
Speaker 1: who really understands the work that I do. My mom's

275
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 1: a registered nurse, she's worked in hospice, so she understands

276
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,720
Speaker 1: the medical system, especially when it comes to treating people

277
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:52,440
Speaker 1: of color, taking vacations, taking breaks. And my hospice organization

278
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,200
Speaker 1: they're really good and that they have support meetings, especially

279
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,120
Speaker 1: when we have really hard cases or supering patients. And

280
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,600
Speaker 1: because this is a quote that I serve, I get

281
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 1: a lot of the really young patients, but my patients

282
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 1: who are black and brown are typically ages like thirty

283
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 1: to on hospice, which is waiting I need to be

284
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,480
Speaker 1: on hospice. So they recognize that and they understand that, Haylimp,

285
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 1: you are serving a population that is dying extremely young.

286
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 1: So they step in to really make sure that they're

287
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,360
Speaker 1: offering support. They have massage therapists who come in for

288
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,840
Speaker 1: us weekly so we can get a massage, usually wanted

289
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 1: different things of that, and just recognizing what's going on

290
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,920
Speaker 1: in my own body. So modeling a lot of the

291
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 1: things that I'm doing with my clients, whether they be

292
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,760
Speaker 1: on in hospice patients or my private practice, really just

293
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,880
Speaker 1: making sure I'm doing the same things to care for

294
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,080
Speaker 1: myself so I don't end us on hospice early. Yeah, yeah,

295
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,040
Speaker 1: that it sounds like it is really important. I mean,

296
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 1: of course, as therapist's important for us to be taking

297
00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,840
Speaker 1: care of ourselves no matter what I feel. But I

298
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,240
Speaker 1: think it is particularly difficult working with this kind of

299
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,719
Speaker 1: client population to be making sure that you're taking care

300
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,400
Speaker 1: of yourself. Yeah, we have to. It is so necessary.

301
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,720
Speaker 1: So anytime that I have something that's extremely triggering or

302
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,520
Speaker 1: hard for me, you know, I take a break, you know,

303
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,320
Speaker 1: if that means not going to work or relying on

304
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,919
Speaker 1: my team. And the good thing about hospice is I

305
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,120
Speaker 1: do have a team that I can lean on for support.

306
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,880
Speaker 1: And my private practice is a little different because it's

307
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,280
Speaker 1: just me. But that work also is really sort of

308
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,480
Speaker 1: self care because I realized that I'm getting clients at

309
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,280
Speaker 1: an early stage that I can really do the work

310
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,520
Speaker 1: to prevent them from Indian hospice. You talked about also

311
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,000
Speaker 1: really learning some great things about like how to live

312
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,200
Speaker 1: will from working with your hospice clients. So what kinds

313
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,760
Speaker 1: of things would you share with us about how we

314
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,240
Speaker 1: can do a better job of living. Will go into

315
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,920
Speaker 1: therapy is definitely the number one thing I've really learned

316
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:02,280
Speaker 1: from working with hospice patients, especially my minority ones, because

317
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,200
Speaker 1: most of them are dying from chronic stress related illnesses.

318
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,720
Speaker 1: So when we think about stress, one way to really

319
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,040
Speaker 1: stress is going to therapy as well as you know,

320
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,520
Speaker 1: eating right, exercising. So all of these things have really

321
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 1: helped me to live better in my own life so

322
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 1: that I'm mindful of what's going on in my body,

323
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: what am I taking on, so that I don't end

324
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 1: up on hospice at an early age. Also really stressed

325
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 1: it with my private practice clients, everyone in my families,

326
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 1: whoever will listen. I'm always stressing like we have to

327
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,119
Speaker 1: live well so we can die well, because the reality

328
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 1: is people of color, black people especially are not dyed well.

329
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,920
Speaker 1: We see this all across the board, no matter what

330
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 1: the illness. We see all the statistics, we know we

331
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,840
Speaker 1: have high A scores. So those high A scores are

332
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,120
Speaker 1: related to childhood stress. So we have to heal from

333
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 1: our childhood trauma, and one way to do that is

334
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 1: really through going to therapy. And I'm curious about how

335
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 1: you talk with your clients about. You know, so many

336
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,199
Speaker 1: of the things that are out of our control, right,

337
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,680
Speaker 1: So a lot of what leads to the chronic stress

338
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,439
Speaker 1: for black people is racism and discrimination. And so what

339
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 1: kinds of things are you talking with your clients about

340
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,440
Speaker 1: related to those kinds of issues. Yeah, when it comes

341
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 1: to racism, and that's definitely a little bit more challenging

342
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 1: because we know racism isn't going to end tomorrow. But

343
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 1: there's things that we can do to still live well

344
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,440
Speaker 1: and take care of ourselves, Like we could still eat

345
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 1: well even though there's racism out there. We know that

346
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 1: there may not be a grocery store in neighborhoods of color,

347
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 1: but doing what we can that's in our power. Also

348
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,919
Speaker 1: checking out, we don't always have to watch every new story,

349
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 1: We don't have to watch every video, read every article,

350
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,600
Speaker 1: because that takes an immense toll on the body, that

351
00:19:54,800 --> 00:20:00,080
Speaker 1: vicarious trauma, secondary trauma of just hearing these stories. It

352
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 1: can be incredibly, incredibly toxic. So I'm always talking to

353
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 1: my clients to be mindful. It's like we want to

354
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,159
Speaker 1: be aware, but not so much so that it becomes debilitating.

355
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,400
Speaker 1: Because we know the stories the stories are the thing, um,

356
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,360
Speaker 1: so what stories can we take in, which stories can

357
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 1: we take out, and also adding in some self care

358
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 1: practices after we do hear those stories, Like after we

359
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,879
Speaker 1: heard about a Tatiana Jefferson, I really stressed to my

360
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 1: clients who brought that up in session to make sure

361
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 1: they went on a wall. It's some progressive muscle relaxation

362
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 1: because muscle memory is so real and as we hear

363
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: these stories, are muscles tensed up and tighten, and it

364
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: takes an incredible toll on the body that is killing

365
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 1: us sooner than should be expected. So just being mindful

366
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,480
Speaker 1: of our body checking in like, you know, how is

367
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: my head filling? I do head to tow assessments with

368
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 1: my clients to really make sure that their body is okay.

369
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 1: And sometimes that even means referring them to a primary

370
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 1: care provider who can actually do some tests outside of

371
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 1: obsession to make sure that everything is okay, just so

372
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,239
Speaker 1: that we can ensure we're living well. So what are

373
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 1: some of your favorite resources? Actually you already gave us so,

374
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,919
Speaker 1: which sounds like a great one in terms of the

375
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 1: five regress of the dying. Are there other books or

376
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,719
Speaker 1: resources that you find yourself recommending frequently. Um. Yes, I

377
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 1: love Dr George A. Brews book. She's actually one of

378
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,639
Speaker 1: my mentors. She wrote Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome and rest

379
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 1: Dominicans My my Grandmother's Hands. His book really talks a

380
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 1: lot about the impact of stress in our body and

381
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 1: how we can heal through that. He focuses on somatic experiencing,

382
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 1: which is what most of what I do with my

383
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 1: clients and my private practice. I even do these things

384
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 1: with my hospice patients. Even though they're dying, they're not

385
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 1: dead in the moment, so they have the ability to

386
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: physically do some of these exercises with me. We do it,

387
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: and I've actually noticed and some of my clients. Um,

388
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: which it doesn't happen all the time, but there's been

389
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: some patients where we have actually discharged from hospice because

390
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: they no longer showed any signs of dying. And so

391
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 1: oftentimes people feel like, Okay, if you're going on hospice,

392
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: you're automatically dying. But that's not the case. I currently

393
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: have a patient who's been on hospice for three years.

394
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 1: Hostage simply just means you have a terminal illness and

395
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 1: you could die within six months or less, um, And

396
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: the goal is really to keep you comfortable and as

397
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 1: long as your body is showing signs of decline, you

398
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 1: still qualified to continue to be on hospice. So this

399
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: particular person's body is still declining, but they haven't died

400
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 1: and it's been three years, so that's one of the

401
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: big misconceptions. UM. So really, just reading that book, My

402
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: Grandmother's Hands, you can learn so much, especially about the

403
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: impact of racial trauma and how race related stress takes

404
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: a toll on the body in ways that we can

405
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 1: heal from it. Wonderful. Do you sound like great resources?

406
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: And where can people find you? Ashley? What is your

407
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: website as well as any social media handles you want

408
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: to share? UM? For my website really simple. My name

409
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: Ashley McGirt dot com. You can find me on Instagram

410
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:21,479
Speaker 1: at Therapy with ash also um Facebook, Ashley McGirt, Lincoln.

411
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,239
Speaker 1: It's pretty much all just my name, perfect and of

412
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 1: course all of that will be included in the show

413
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,719
Speaker 1: notes for people to find easily. Well, thank you so

414
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 1: much for sharing with us today, Astley. I really appreciate it.

415
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me and shutting light

416
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: on this important topic of death dying in hospice. Absolutely thanks, Welcome, Welcome,

417
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Ashley was able to share her expertise

418
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: with us today. To find out more information about her

419
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: and her practice or the resources she shared, check out

420
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com

421
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: slash Session one. Please remember to share this episode with

422
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: two people in your circle, and don't forget to share

423
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 1: your takeaways with us either on Twitter or in your

424
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: I G stories using the hashtag tv G in session.

425
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: If you're searching for a therapist in your area, be

426
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for

427
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want

428
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic and meet some other

429
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: sisters in your area, come on over and join us

430
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: in the Yellow Couch Collective, where we take a deeper

431
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: dive into the topics from the podcast and just about

432
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: everything else. You can join us at Therapy for Black

433
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: Girls dot com slash y c C. Thank y'all so

434
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 1: much for joining me again this week. I look forward

435
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: to continue in this conversation with you all real soon.

436
00:24:46,160 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: Take it care, the best, best will best, the best

437
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 1: wood