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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact,
Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talked with the top experts.
Speaker 4: Welcome back to another episode of Beyond Contact. I am
Speaker 4: Captain Ron, and today we're going to be speaking with
Speaker 4: aviation safety engineer and educator doctor Todd Curtis. Doctor Curtis
Speaker 4: has spent most of his career in some aspect of
Speaker 4: aviation safety, particularly analyzing aviation safety data and understanding aviation risks.
Speaker 4: While he's been aware of the UFO and the UAP
Speaker 4: issue for decades, it was the famous case in two
Speaker 4: thousand and six at the Chicago O'Hare Airport, and in
Speaker 4: particular the lack of any real official response to that
Speaker 4: event that medium realize that this phenomenon had both an
Speaker 4: aviation safety issue and a national security dimension that deserved
Speaker 4: more of a serious approach. How you doing, Todd, Good
Speaker 4: to see you.
Speaker 5: I'm doing just fine. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: We saw you at the twenty twenty four Contact in
Speaker 4: the Desert conference. Would you think of that? I know
Speaker 4: you're a bit outside the UFO community and you're firmly
Speaker 4: entrenched in the aviation safety Would you think of the conference?
Speaker 5: Well, I was quite impressed by it because I knew
Speaker 5: of the subject in general for quite some time, and
Speaker 5: in fact, back in twenty fourteen, I was actually electronically
Speaker 5: on the same show with Nick Pope, on a show
Speaker 5: dealing with UFOs and airliners. So seeing these folks in
Speaker 5: the flesh was a bit of a revelation.
Speaker 4: It's a lot of fun. I saw your lecture there,
Speaker 4: which was great, by the way, and it's nice to
Speaker 4: get the perspective from an aviation safety expert like yourself
Speaker 4: on this phenomenon. This issue comes up from time to
Speaker 4: time for us as we hear these different reports from
Speaker 4: airline pilots and from military personnel, and we genuinely wonder,
Speaker 4: you know, if the Pentagon really has this a tip
Speaker 4: program they've admitted they have, and if these pilots really
Speaker 4: are seeing these objects. As Ryan Grave says all the time,
Speaker 4: isn't there a genuine risk to flying?
Speaker 5: Well, certainly there's a risk either a direct preas for example,
Speaker 5: if you have some kind of aerospace vehicle I don't
Speaker 5: care what it is in the same airspace as you,
Speaker 5: and you don't know they're there, you can have admit
Speaker 5: air collision. But more likely is someone sees something or
Speaker 5: the instruments send something and decisions are made and actions
Speaker 5: are taken which don't have to be taken, and you
Speaker 5: might have a situation where oh my gosh, something's coming
Speaker 5: at me when it's not and you lose control of
Speaker 5: the aircraft. So regardless of what was causing that reaction,
Speaker 5: whether it was a solid object, whether it was a projection,
Speaker 5: it doesn't really matter. My concern from the aviation and
Speaker 5: safety perspective is how does it affect the people in
Speaker 5: the system, the technology in the system, or the infrastructure
Speaker 5: in general, whether that's losing power, losing control, making poor decisions, etc.
Speaker 4: Would you say that some people in the aviation community
Speaker 4: take this more seriously than let's say, the government may
Speaker 4: lead on or the perception, maybe not even jumping to
Speaker 4: the speculation that these could be et craft or anything,
Speaker 4: just the fact that there seems to be stuff flying
Speaker 4: around that I would think any pilot would be concerned
Speaker 4: about whatever it is.
Speaker 5: Well, certainly that sort of thing is taken seriously, but
Speaker 5: not formally in a sense of Even in my experience
Speaker 5: in aviation, both military and civilian, I've heard stories for years.
Speaker 5: I thought, Okay, they saw something. It was really weird.
Speaker 5: But there's nowhere to go with this. In the military context,
Speaker 5: when I was in the Air Force, if it didn't
Speaker 5: affect the mission, didn't affect the equipment or the people
Speaker 5: involved with the mission, it wasn't something that you would report.
Speaker 5: It was an interesting thing, but not really our concern.
Speaker 5: In a civilian world as well, unless it has something
Speaker 5: to do with a reportable event, for example, an accent
Speaker 5: or incident, or it had something to do with interrupting
Speaker 5: whatever the civilian mission is, for example, an airline flight
Speaker 5: landing on time. He wouldn't necessarily report it. And here's
Speaker 5: the important thing. It might be reported. It might be
Speaker 5: talked about within a company, within an organization, within even
Speaker 5: a whole geographical area. If there's no formal requirement to
Speaker 5: report it, the rest of the industry would have no
Speaker 5: idea about it, including myself. Even though I keep close
Speaker 5: track of all sorts of safety databases and aviation news.
Speaker 5: Unless someone reports it formally, I really can't go anywhere
Speaker 5: with it.
Speaker 4: Well, as a pilot, I would think, you know, you've
Speaker 4: got to wonder to yourself, do you report it? Like
Speaker 4: you said, if it doesn't affect my flight, it doesn't
Speaker 4: affect my mission, do you report this? Should you report this?
Speaker 4: It doesn't seem like there's any incentive really to do so.
Speaker 4: In fact, there may be some reasons not to do so.
Speaker 5: Right well, some of the reasons might be a common sense,
Speaker 5: and I talked about this in my presentation. The FAA
Speaker 5: actually has in one of their regulations a specific suggestion
Speaker 5: if you see a UFO, and they did use UFO
Speaker 5: in this documentation, you can report it either to a
Speaker 5: civilian organization, and they specifically mentioned the National UFO Reporting Center,
Speaker 5: which is run by Peter Davenport, who was also aut
Speaker 5: contact in the Desert You. I wrote to them many
Speaker 5: times by email over the years. I had a nice
Speaker 5: long talk with him, and that was probably the highlight
Speaker 5: of my time.
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm so happy to hear that he's such a
Speaker 4: nice man.
Speaker 5: Oh he is. And it's great that the FA says
Speaker 5: to go to him because he is a stand up guy.
Speaker 5: He's done fantastic work for decades compiling the things that
Speaker 5: he compiles. But the problem with that is he is
Speaker 5: not in the government. He is not supported by the government.
Speaker 5: There is no formalized process to keep that database up
Speaker 5: and running when for whatever reason, mister Davenport no longer
Speaker 5: is able or willing to keep that database up. That's
Speaker 5: one part. But the second part that really got me upset.
Speaker 5: Reported to your local law enforcement and I thought, Okay,
Speaker 5: I'm not a lawyer when it comes to aviation, but
Speaker 5: anything in the sky above the United States is federal responsibility,
Speaker 5: the FAA, the Department of Defense, what have you. The
Speaker 5: sky belongs to Uncle Sam, not to the States, not
Speaker 5: to the local community. So let's say I'm flying around
Speaker 5: the Bay Area and again presentation. I had an example
Speaker 5: where one of my flights in the Bay Area said, look,
Speaker 5: I'm going in this there are several jurisdictions I'm flying over, state, local,
Speaker 5: and federal. If I see something outside of my window,
Speaker 5: outside of my windscreen, I might not know which organization
Speaker 5: to call. And if I call the city, the county,
Speaker 5: the state, and the federal jurisdiction of that piece of territory,
Speaker 5: would they laugh in my face or would they take
Speaker 5: me seriously? They would do neither. It'll probably say things
Speaker 5: I can't say after contact and hang up in my face.
Speaker 5: So that was not useful. And in my world the
Speaker 5: years I've studied aviation safety, one of the most useful
Speaker 5: things is to have solid objective data, preferably something that's
Speaker 5: been vetted by an organization that's trusted by the aviation community.
Speaker 5: So the rest of the community can take that data
Speaker 5: and analyze it to whatever ends they have in mind.
Speaker 5: But the first step is, after something is encountered or seen,
Speaker 5: is it going to be put in a place where
Speaker 5: it can be seen by the rest of the community.
Speaker 4: Isn't there possibly some repercussions for some of these pilots.
Speaker 4: Maybe they don't want to say that.
Speaker 5: Well, certainly, there have been many many cases over the years.
Speaker 5: Probably the most famous was I believe it was nineteen
Speaker 5: eighty six over Alaska where was the Japan Airlines where
Speaker 5: the crew there was a three person flight crew. They
Speaker 5: saw some extraordinary things over Alaska at night in the
Speaker 5: vicinity of Anchorage. Not only that they were communicating with
Speaker 5: the FAA, the FA the air traffic controllers were apparently
Speaker 5: communicating with military assets as well. It was very well documented,
Speaker 5: so well documented that there was a fairly decent analysis
Speaker 5: done by the FAA. And as the story goes, this
Speaker 5: was one that was told by I believe his name
Speaker 5: is Jim Callahan, who was the FA official who was
Speaker 5: running the presentation. They had a presentation a lot of
Speaker 5: government representatives, including apparently someone from the National Intelligence area,
Speaker 5: and after the meeting he was sold everything in this room,
Speaker 5: we're taking it with us. Well, everything in the room
Speaker 5: was given, he followed orders, but everything that was in
Speaker 5: his office or not in that room was not taken.
Speaker 5: And he has four years gone out and said to
Speaker 5: anyone who's willing to listen, what they saw what they analyzed,
Speaker 5: and just so, I mean, the useful information that was
Speaker 5: from that analysis was fantastic, the best I'd ever seen.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, he specifically said he described it the pilot as
Speaker 4: two small ships and a mothership. He used that word,
Speaker 4: which is unique. There was no sign of anything else
Speaker 4: on his radar or ground control's radar even though they
Speaker 4: saw these three craft.
Speaker 5: This is nineteen eighty six. This was years before the
Speaker 5: first still aircraft was known to the public, So to
Speaker 5: have something that was apparently solid and not reflecting radar
Speaker 5: energy was not something that was common. That was very anomalous,
Speaker 5: although they didn't use the word back then and going forward,
Speaker 5: this is something where that pilot, the captain, who was
Speaker 5: very public about what he had seen, was actually grounded
Speaker 5: by his airline for a year more because he was
Speaker 5: public with what he saw. So, yes, there are professional repercussions. Now,
Speaker 5: going back further in aviation history, this is something that
Speaker 5: started in the nineteen fifties and sixties high altitude pilot's
Speaker 5: military pilots who saw unusual phenomena high.
Speaker 4: In the sky.
Speaker 5: Fast forward to the eighties. It wasn't until the Space
Speaker 5: Shuttle era that they actually started studying what they call
Speaker 5: jets and sprites, upper atmospheric lightning that goes from the
Speaker 5: upper part of thunderstorms to the lower reaches of space.
Speaker 5: Bizarre looking.
Speaker 4: I've seen pictures of it that's crazy. It looks like
Speaker 4: almost like an X ray kind of gone bad. Like
Speaker 4: it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 5: In the day, if you reported that, you'd be grounded.
Speaker 5: But now it's like, oh, we understand this, we'll note
Speaker 5: it when it happens, and we'll see if there's any
Speaker 5: effects on the aircraft. And that's the way it should
Speaker 5: go when it comes to unusual phenomena in the sky.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting that those guys got grounded, and like
Speaker 4: you said here, this guy got grounded if you reported
Speaker 4: such a thing, you know, I can add anecdotally that
Speaker 4: I've spoke to a couple of pilots myself and an
Speaker 4: astronaut actually, who each have given me incredible sightings, and
Speaker 4: yet they didn't talk about it publicly or on the air.
Speaker 4: So there's still, you know, something about people not wanting
Speaker 4: to report that stuff in this field. When we come back, Todd,
Speaker 4: we're going to talk about a few more cases. Is
Speaker 4: similar to the one we just talked about. You are
Speaker 4: listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio on Coast to
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Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact. It's Captain Ron talking
Speaker 4: to doctor Todd Curtis. Doctor Curtis, let's talk about some
Speaker 4: of these famous UFO cases that have involved other aircraft,
Speaker 4: starting with the case I mentioned in your intro, which
Speaker 4: is the two thousand and six UFO case that happened
Speaker 4: at Chicago O'Hare Airport. We're at least a dozen employees
Speaker 4: claim to have witnessed a metallic saucer shaped craft hovering
Speaker 4: over a game. Do you remember that case?
Speaker 5: I remember well. In fact, that case was the triggering
Speaker 5: event that maybe become professionally interested in whatever was going on,
Speaker 5: because this was November two thousand and six, nearly six
Speaker 5: years after nine to eleven, four or five years after
Speaker 5: TSA was up and running, after Homeland security was up
Speaker 5: and running, where airport and aviation security was top of
Speaker 5: mind with the government, and you have something to this day,
Speaker 5: I don't know what it is, and neither does anyone
Speaker 5: else that was violating the airspace, not over an airport,
Speaker 5: but one of the most important airports in the world,
Speaker 5: the busiest airports in the world, one of the top
Speaker 5: five or ten, and nothing officially was done. Covering over
Speaker 5: a terminal in full view of personnel on the ground,
Speaker 5: no investigation by the FAA or the FBI or whomever.
Speaker 5: I said to myself, Look, there have been hundreds of
Speaker 5: millions of tax dollars going to these organizations. Here is
Speaker 5: a humongous example of Hey, investigate this, because check it out.
Speaker 5: If I'm a bad guy or bad woman sitting over
Speaker 5: across the world thinking, if I want to attack an
Speaker 5: airport in America, all I have to do is make
Speaker 5: it look like a flying saucer and I can just
Speaker 5: waltz right in. No one's going to touch me. So
Speaker 5: again I got mad, and instead of writing an angry
Speaker 5: letter to the editor, I said, what can I do
Speaker 5: about this? From my professional perspective, So I started to
Speaker 5: ask questions, questions like what's the risk? And risk is
Speaker 5: a very specific term in the regulatory world of aviation.
Speaker 5: Risk is something you can measure. It's a combination of
Speaker 5: some likelihood of an unwanted event, the consequences of that event,
Speaker 5: and the magnitude of those things put together. For example,
Speaker 5: chance of plane crashing very very low, the consequence many
Speaker 5: people killed. So yes, that is a risk. You can
Speaker 5: measure it, you can hang a number on it. What
Speaker 5: is the action, what was the effect on the aircraft,
Speaker 5: what was the damage to the system. So looking at
Speaker 5: it from that perspective, I began to get a much
Speaker 5: better feel for it. And subsequent to Chicago, the next
Speaker 5: triggering event was Leslie King. She had her book in
Speaker 5: twenty ten about UFOs generals, and she had documented cases
Speaker 5: around the world where you had high level officials France, US,
Speaker 5: Ron elsewhere who spoke in detail and sometimes in their
Speaker 5: own words about what they had experienced. I was so
Speaker 5: impressed with that. I actually reached out to her and
Speaker 5: this is what twenty thirteen, which actually came on my
Speaker 5: podcast on my website, and we had a lovely conversation.
Speaker 5: It's still out there on the internet. You can here
Speaker 5: Leslie and I, yeah.
Speaker 4: It's great. Actually, that's when her UFO book came up.
Speaker 5: And my attitude really hasn't changed since then. What has
Speaker 5: changed is my ability to go out there and see
Speaker 5: if there's any additional evidence out there, not just evidence
Speaker 5: from people talking online or whatever, but are there formal
Speaker 5: reports in any sort of database that's reputable that has
Speaker 5: these things. And there is one database funded by the
Speaker 5: United States government which has in my opinion, bona fide
Speaker 5: UFO slash UAP cases in them. Some of them are
Speaker 5: just pretty stunning as well. This is NASA's Aviation Safety
Speaker 5: Reporting System database, something that's been up and running since
Speaker 5: the late nineteen seventies, where the purpose is to encourage
Speaker 5: pilot's and others to send in reports that affect aviation safety.
Speaker 5: And the thing about this is anonymous you send in
Speaker 5: a report, it ends up on their database. Your name's
Speaker 5: not associated with it, the aircraft hill number isn't associated
Speaker 5: with it, your company name isn't associated with And NASA
Speaker 5: is very proud of the fact they've had I think
Speaker 5: it's something like one and a half to two million
Speaker 5: reports over the years. They've never had the privacy of
Speaker 5: the reporting people violated. And here's the big end. They
Speaker 5: have a staff of people who review all these experts
Speaker 5: in aviation air traffic control mechanics. So if you put
Speaker 5: in some report, they'll look it over. They might even
Speaker 5: call you up again ask you more questions. So is
Speaker 5: it possible you can put in a BIGUS report. Sure,
Speaker 5: But professionally, if you're a pilot or mechanic, air traffic controller,
Speaker 5: flight attendant, anyone who has to be certified by the FAA,
Speaker 5: and you lie to the FAA via NASA, many things
Speaker 5: can happen to you, none of them good, So there's
Speaker 5: a huge incentive to tell it to them straight.
Speaker 4: It's great that you have plausible deniability by using that
Speaker 4: system if you don't have to put your name on it.
Speaker 5: Absolutely as good as the database is. And I did
Speaker 5: find literally thirteen events which I talked about the presentation
Speaker 5: that I thought fit the criteria that I have for
Speaker 5: what a UAP is. I didn't see any events around events,
Speaker 5: around times and places you would think. For example, I
Speaker 5: went to the database which goes back to nineteen eighty eight,
Speaker 5: I said, okay, what about the month of November two
Speaker 5: thousand and six, by the way right there exactly, they
Speaker 5: give you the month, they don't give you the day.
Speaker 5: So I said, all right, let me give the month
Speaker 5: of November, State of Illinois. How many reports were in there?
Speaker 5: I went through every report none of them had something
Speaker 5: to do with the o'haravan Stephenville, Texas, which was during
Speaker 5: the George W. Bush administration where there was no wait,
Speaker 5: that's no way, Stephenville, Texas. I went through the entire
Speaker 5: month nothing. Phoenix Lights ninety seven. I did Phoenix, Arizona,
Speaker 5: and Nevada for that entire month. Nothing by the way,
Speaker 5: Phoenix Lights Reportedly Kurt Russell, who was a licensed pilot
Speaker 5: at the time he saw whatever this object was, has
Speaker 5: talked about it in public since then, but to the
Speaker 5: best my analogy, hasn't filed a formal report or informal report.
Speaker 4: Well, he called it in. There's a recording. You can
Speaker 4: actually find the recording of him calling it in. We
Speaker 4: were going to invite him to contact in the desert.
Speaker 4: Because of that, I don't think he filed with this.
Speaker 4: It doesn't seem like people are filing using this system.
Speaker 4: You just named all these things and there are no
Speaker 4: reports about this. Well.
Speaker 5: The aviation saftory reporting system is something that if you
Speaker 5: are in aviation you may or may not be aware of,
Speaker 5: in part because there are two kinds of data you
Speaker 5: tend to have when it comes to aviation safetry reporting.
Speaker 5: That which is required to be reported, that which is voluntary.
Speaker 5: If you have an accident as defined by the NTSB,
Speaker 5: you're required to report it within so many days where
Speaker 5: you'll be in big trouble, and if it's a serious
Speaker 5: incident also it has to be reported. Just about everything
Speaker 5: else is voluntary. For example, there's a database called the
Speaker 5: Near Midair Collision System Database. Where he didn't have a
Speaker 5: midair collision. You might not have even been in a
Speaker 5: situation where traffic controllers reported it. But if you're a
Speaker 5: pilot and you're in a situation, it's like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 5: let report this almost accident that happened. There's another database
Speaker 5: for wildlife strikes aircraft, another one for laser encounters, another
Speaker 5: one for errant drones drones are misbehaving. These are all voluntary,
Speaker 5: as is the ASRS system of NASA.
Speaker 4: I see very interesting, Todd. I actually remember this case
Speaker 4: that we were talking about earlier, about the two thousand
Speaker 4: and six oh haair case, and I remember it came
Speaker 4: out and then it just sort of went away and
Speaker 4: we never really got an explanation. You know. This is
Speaker 4: another example of the government not acknowledging anything about anything
Speaker 4: unidentified in the sky. I recently mentioned on the air
Speaker 4: how there's this disconnect somehow in our government. On one hand,
Speaker 4: they've come out recently and acknowledged the Advanced Aerospace Threat
Speaker 4: Identification program that they had, that that they were doing. That,
Speaker 4: they acknowledged that several of these leaked videos are authentic
Speaker 4: military videos. They acknowledged in two thousand and one that
Speaker 4: the Director of the National Intelligence released a report saying
Speaker 4: they couldn't explain one hundred and forty three out of
Speaker 4: one hundred and forty four UAP cases that it looked at. Yet,
Speaker 4: on the other hand, we have this long history from
Speaker 4: the government of blatant denial of anything to do with
Speaker 4: UFO phenomenon, going back to Project Sign, Grunge Blue Book,
Speaker 4: the other so called reports, the Robertson Panel, the kind
Speaker 4: of committee, all of these things. Then in twenty twenty
Speaker 4: four we get this new department called the All Domain
Speaker 4: Anomaly Resolution Office, and we thought we're going to get
Speaker 4: some real information here, But they came out with this
Speaker 4: ridiculous conclusion that there's absolutely nothing to see, not even
Speaker 4: acknowledging that there might be objects in the sky that
Speaker 4: we can't explain. It's just simply not realistic. How do
Speaker 4: you feel about the government responses like this.
Speaker 5: Well, the government at which full disclosure, I used to
Speaker 5: be a part of. I was an Air Force officer
Speaker 5: and I was assigned both the Flight Test Center at
Speaker 5: Edwards and I was actually at the National Security Agency
Speaker 5: last part of my service, so I got a look
Speaker 5: to see at the intelligence community from the inside. So
Speaker 5: the government has many parts when it comes to aviation,
Speaker 5: and generally you have the civilian part and you have
Speaker 5: the military part, and many of their safety programs and
Speaker 5: reporting systems are quite separate from one another. If you're
Speaker 5: in a civilian aircraft something goes seriously wrong and there's
Speaker 5: a crash, there'll be an investigation, there'll be a detailed report.
Speaker 5: Anyone around the world can download report and the supporting
Speaker 5: documents of it. The same sort of accident happens in
Speaker 5: the military. You'll be lucky if you get a one
Speaker 5: page summary saying this is the accident and this is
Speaker 5: kind of what happened, and that's it. My colleagues and
Speaker 5: I did a podcast about an accident on Air Force
Speaker 5: one about five years ago that cost four million dollars
Speaker 5: worth of damage. Someone used the wrong tools, on an
Speaker 5: auction system. The average person would think this is crazy.
Speaker 5: There was only a one page report available to the public.
Speaker 5: The details were in the military file somewhere it can
Speaker 5: access them. But let's go back in time to Chicago
Speaker 5: two thousand and six. Was the air requirement for the
Speaker 5: FA to report this event to the best of my knowledge,
Speaker 5: or was not a formal regulatory requirement in the regulations
Speaker 5: that dictate how the FA behaves that require them to
Speaker 5: report it. Could you, as a civilian ask for a
Speaker 5: Freedom of Information Act request with things like air traffic
Speaker 5: control tapes in a reports, et cetera. You could have
Speaker 5: you put it on a public database online easily accessible.
Speaker 5: You put it behind a foil wall. It's available puts
Speaker 5: you have to work for it. So, in my opinion,
Speaker 5: there was no reporting of it because there is no
Speaker 5: requirement to report it.
Speaker 4: We're going to take a break there. You're listening to
Speaker 4: Beyond Contact and the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM
Speaker 4: paranormal podcast network.
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Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact. We're talking with doctor
Speaker 4: Todd Curtis. Doctor Curtis, do you know of any cases
Speaker 4: involving a plane hitting one of these unknown objects like
Speaker 4: a UAP or even like a close call with one.
Speaker 5: I don't, and I literally looked at thousands of accent
Speaker 5: instant reports over the decades. I've been in the business,
Speaker 5: and this for one of two reasons. A it never happened,
Speaker 5: or b it happened, and whoever wrote reports rooted in
Speaker 5: such a way to write around the fact that this
Speaker 5: was something highly unusual and more full disclosure. Had I
Speaker 5: been in well, I was going for a number of
Speaker 5: years as a safety engineer, which I've never seen a
Speaker 5: report at going. But had we seen one, I'm pretty
Speaker 5: combident we would have done exactly that. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 5: is there a plane crashed, the reports are something really
Speaker 5: bizarre hit it. We'll write a full report and do
Speaker 5: our level best not to mention the bizarre part, because
Speaker 5: otherwise it would not be seen as credible for our
Speaker 5: home colleagues. And also we might call some bad blood
Speaker 5: with people we have to have a long term relationship
Speaker 5: with in the government, so there is an incentive to
Speaker 5: I wouldn't say a lie, but I would say tell
Speaker 5: as little truth as possible. And again, well, but yeah,
Speaker 5: that's not a conspiracy, that's just you know, organizational and
Speaker 5: bureaucratic survival at work.
Speaker 4: I'm going to use that in my dating world. I
Speaker 4: was like, I think that's a good one.
Speaker 3: Todd.
Speaker 4: I liked that, Hey, do you feel any of these
Speaker 4: things could be anomalous? Where do you sit? Do you
Speaker 4: feel like any of this could be something unknown?
Speaker 5: Well? Absolutely, there is one of the thirteen that were
Speaker 5: in the ASRS database. I talked about my presentation. There
Speaker 5: were a couple where what I would call conventional objects
Speaker 5: in very unconventional places. For example, you're flying fifteen or
Speaker 5: so miles from New York and you see a missile
Speaker 5: go by, and the pilot reported I could see that
Speaker 5: the missile had a rounded shape in the front. I
Speaker 5: thought to myself, Okay, I've been around a few missiles
Speaker 5: here and there in the military. How close do you
Speaker 5: have to be or how big does this missile have
Speaker 5: to be for you to know what shape it was?
Speaker 5: And by the way, you're like fifteen miles out of
Speaker 5: New York City. There are no military test ranges anywhere
Speaker 5: near that territory. Having a missile flying without everyone knowing
Speaker 5: about it, the FA says, hey, we have missile tests
Speaker 5: going on between this hour and this hour.
Speaker 4: Avoid this space.
Speaker 5: To have someone fire this without going through the protocols
Speaker 5: would put that program, whatever that program is, in jeopardy.
Speaker 5: Not to mention all the flights or put in jeopardy.
Speaker 5: So yeah, that's one kind of anomally in that it's
Speaker 5: a conventional object in an unconventional space. There is at
Speaker 5: least one other one in there. It's like, I have
Speaker 5: no idea what this is. This looks like nothing I've
Speaker 5: ever seen. And whatever was flying this thing had extraordinary
Speaker 5: piloting skills, well beyond what you expect from even an
Speaker 5: above average pilot.
Speaker 4: What do you speculate that could be? Do you think
Speaker 4: it could be a test military craft? Do you think
Speaker 4: it could be drones? Could it be a foreign government?
Speaker 4: Could it be something off world?
Speaker 5: I'll give you a very short description of the most
Speaker 5: bizarre on and and I'll let you tell me what
Speaker 5: you think. A sailplane pilot which is no engine on it.
Speaker 5: He's flying near all but in New York. He's about
Speaker 5: thirty five hundred feet above of the ground. There's another
Speaker 5: person in back. This person's first flight in the glider.
Speaker 5: He sees something that's about six foot tall, too small
Speaker 5: to have a person side of. It has like a
Speaker 5: speckled shiny rainbow thing on the top, a couple of
Speaker 5: antenna thingies sticking out on the bottom, and he sees
Speaker 5: it flying in my estimation, about three hundred miles an hour,
Speaker 5: very close to the ground. Okay, drones existed into they
Speaker 5: fifteen drones going three hundred miles an hour. I don't
Speaker 5: think so. But it gets worse or more bizarre. It
Speaker 5: goes toward this distant mountain. Then it comes directly at
Speaker 5: this lider, passes by his right wing, doesn't U turn,
Speaker 5: ends up forming off about fifty feet off his left way.
Speaker 5: That's an airshow kind of maneuver that you would see
Speaker 5: the Blue Angels of the Thunderbirds do, and you would
Speaker 5: not see them do it unless everyone involved knew exactly
Speaker 5: what was going on. This was a sailplane pilot who
Speaker 5: does not have the ability to do juking and driving
Speaker 5: maneuvers to get out of the way, and this thing
Speaker 5: with extraordinary capability is flying in formation and I love it.
Speaker 5: The statement said in the right up. This is why
Speaker 5: I decided to go back to the airport, And I thought,
Speaker 5: this is a smart pilot. He's getting the heck out
Speaker 5: of dotage. The wait there's more. Two similar objects about
Speaker 5: six foot toll come out of the clouds, form up
Speaker 5: with the first one flies off into the distance. Now
Speaker 5: any one small part of that could be a conventional
Speaker 5: craft of some kind. Everything put together makes no sense whatsoever.
Speaker 4: What about you, I ask a UAP case, I mean
Speaker 4: that is by definition right there, that's an unidentified phenomenon
Speaker 4: going on right there. I think that's a great one.
Speaker 4: I've never seen it.
Speaker 5: It's a certified, vetted, government sponsored database that is open
Speaker 5: to the entire world to go look at. And again
Speaker 5: in my presentation I links to the actual code number.
Speaker 5: You can go in there yourself, download this, look at yourself,
Speaker 5: scratch your head and say, what's going on?
Speaker 4: Right? How often do you stumble across things that are
Speaker 4: of interest like that?
Speaker 5: Very rarely? Because again I very specifically said to myself,
Speaker 5: as a little research project, is there anything in any
Speaker 5: formal database that looks as bizarre? I would go to
Speaker 5: the NTSB database, do searches for the word UFO or
Speaker 5: UAP and whatnot. I thought, let me try the Aviation
Speaker 5: Safety Reporting System. That's when I hit PAYDART. I only
Speaker 5: did three searchers. One had a single word missile about
Speaker 5: four hundred events, like three or four of them were legitimate.
Speaker 5: Another single word UAV, which is for the acronym for
Speaker 5: a drone unmanned aerospace vehicle. They were like sixty of those,
Speaker 5: and four of them were legit, and there was actually
Speaker 5: a coded variable in the database for UFO. So I did, Okay,
Speaker 5: let me do a general search UFO. You at p
Speaker 5: on adentified flight object, etc.
Speaker 4: Cetera.
Speaker 5: There were nine of them, six for legit, and I
Speaker 5: quit doing a search after that. Hey, I did three
Speaker 5: searches in like twenty minutes and I found thirteen events.
Speaker 5: If I spent a whole lot more time doing this,
Speaker 5: I'll probably find more in that specific database. So this
Speaker 5: is my challenge to the audience. Go check out the
Speaker 5: Aviation Safety Reporting System, figure out how to use their
Speaker 5: search process, which.
Speaker 4: Is very easy.
Speaker 5: See if you can find something, please.
Speaker 4: That is awesome. We should all take a look at
Speaker 4: that and see if we can't come up with more.
Speaker 4: Doctor Curtis, let's talk about that San Francisco case at
Speaker 4: twenty thirteen.
Speaker 5: This was a conventional accident. This was a Triple seven
Speaker 5: on July sixth, twenty thirteen, happened to be a Saturday,
Speaker 5: and it crashed, killing three people on board. I'd been
Speaker 5: a blowing engineer years before work on the Triple seven project.
Speaker 5: This is the very first fatal crash of a Triple seven,
Speaker 5: and I was out of voting at that time and
Speaker 5: did the occasional media interview. And as soon as I
Speaker 5: found out that Saturday morning it's a crash, I said
Speaker 5: to myself, my god, it's Triple seven. And no one
Speaker 5: called me. Typically when there's a major airline crash in
Speaker 5: the US, I get all sorts of phone calls, emails,
Speaker 5: text messages. I had nothing. I called around to producers
Speaker 5: I knew, and I called down to IT line. I said, hey,
Speaker 5: you know I'm in New York. It's there a studio
Speaker 5: I can go to. Somebody won't ask me a question.
Speaker 5: I said, oh yeah, I go down the road Columbus Circle.
Speaker 5: We have a studio there. I hadn't followed CNN, so
Speaker 5: I didn't realize they had basically moved their major operations
Speaker 5: in New York. So I walk into this big room,
Speaker 5: fifty desk. Don Lemon's off in the corner, little studio
Speaker 5: giving us talk. I said, oh my god. I thought
Speaker 5: i'd be a little room for five minutes. I'll have
Speaker 5: five minutes of Don Lemon. This will make my day.
Speaker 5: This is a tragic event. People had died but I
Speaker 5: had a job to do. Give some information, then go
Speaker 5: out and party. It's like Saturday in New York. Why
Speaker 5: did they call me and let me come in? Because
Speaker 5: everyone was on vacation. Their producers couldn't be caught. There
Speaker 5: are all sorts of experts who they couldn't call. It's
Speaker 5: like I showed up. It's like, okay, my five minutes
Speaker 5: rough up. I'm about to leave this. Oh, doctor Curtis,
Speaker 5: would you like to stay a little bit longer. Six
Speaker 5: hours later, I leave the studio and all day I'm thinking, okay,
Speaker 5: we're on live. I have to give some useful information,
Speaker 5: very little information starting off, and I try to keep
Speaker 5: it my usual EMO is I'm going to stick with
Speaker 5: facts and data. If I have an opinion, I'll stay
Speaker 5: in an opinion. I'll try and give some context to
Speaker 5: similar accidents in that city or that aircraft type, et cetera.
Speaker 5: And it was an eye opening experience seeing media work
Speaker 5: in real time at CNN. I thought, my god, this
Speaker 5: is like the pinnacle of live news. And I'm the
Speaker 5: only guy that got you. Gotta be kidding me. You
Speaker 5: are mister Fax and Data.
Speaker 4: That is for sure. You absolutely could be like that investigator.
Speaker 4: It's great, fascinating stuff. We'll be right back here talking
Speaker 4: more with doctor t Curtis. You're listening to Beyond Contact
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.
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Speaker 4: We are back on Beyond Contact. We're talking with doctor
Speaker 4: Todd Curtis. Here. Todd, you brought up Boeing Man in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four. There's been a lot of stuff happening
Speaker 4: with Boeing. They had the door fall off, they had
Speaker 4: the wheel fall off. What do you feel about all.
Speaker 5: That respect the Boeing or any entity. If you have
Speaker 5: a crash of a certain type of a certain aircraft type,
Speaker 5: a certain airline, or in a certain country, there tends
Speaker 5: to be heightened awareness of anything happening in that same context.
Speaker 5: So Boeing after their seven three seven Next events, there's
Speaker 5: a heightened awareness when anything happens. For example, will falling
Speaker 5: off an airliner happens multiple times a year around the world.
Speaker 5: Very rarely is it national news, but if it involves
Speaker 5: a Boeing aircraft, it's national news. Anything dealing with the
Speaker 5: seven three seven Max. People could have a hangnail in coach,
Speaker 5: it'll be national news if it's on the seven three
Speaker 5: seven Max. So I got a call. This is one
Speaker 5: of those cases where I did get a call. They said, well,
Speaker 5: doctor Curtis, what do you think about what just happened?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 5: About two days before, there's been a crash in Japan.
Speaker 5: No one got killed, but it was like a spectacular crash,
Speaker 5: everything burned up. I start talking about the Japan crashes.
Speaker 5: Oh no, it's a seven three seven Max. It's like,
Speaker 5: what door fell off? What are you talking about? I
Speaker 5: look up that model of the seven three seven This
Speaker 5: was a later model of the seven three seven. They
Speaker 5: actually put a different door in an area of the
Speaker 5: aircraft that wasn't on the earlier model. So it took
Speaker 5: me like a half hour to get my head around
Speaker 5: the fact that there's another door here. What's a plug door? Oh,
Speaker 5: it's supposed to be an emergency exit door, unless you
Speaker 5: don't have that many seats and you're not required to
Speaker 5: put an emergency accept so you put what they call
Speaker 5: a plug door. It's a simple fix, basically bolted in.
Speaker 5: It stays there permanently. This is a no brainer technology.
Speaker 5: I've never heard of a plug door coming out. I
Speaker 5: called up a former NTSP board number. I said, have
Speaker 5: you ever heard of a plug door coming off of
Speaker 5: an aircraft? He said now, And he was a former mechanic,
Speaker 5: he'd been working on airplanes for decades. So yeah, and
Speaker 5: it happened to be Boeing in the seven thirty seven Max.
Speaker 5: So everybody, rightfully so knows about this plug door. BOI
Speaker 5: rightfully so is being taken to the woodshed and the
Speaker 5: company was convicted of a crime, but no individuals were
Speaker 5: So is the CEO going to jail now? Unfortunately he
Speaker 5: has a golden parachute and he's out the door. That's
Speaker 5: an opinion.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, we saw that. Yeah, absolutely, Dodd do you
Speaker 4: you I think said as of May twenty twenty four,
Speaker 4: the FAA and the Department Defense still do not have
Speaker 4: a systematic or comprehensive process for collecting and organizing UAP reports.
Speaker 4: Is that still the case, I'm assuming it is.
Speaker 5: Let me add that there is no publicly acknowledge systematic
Speaker 5: method methodology on the military or the National security side,
Speaker 5: and there is definitely nothing public on the FA side.
Speaker 5: And by systematic we're talking something as simple as what
Speaker 5: is the definition of a UAP the military and National
Speaker 5: security side of the house have is a working definition.
Speaker 5: NASA actually did an independent study team back in twenty
Speaker 5: twenty three. They published the report in twenty twenty four
Speaker 5: where they had to generalize definition of what a UAP
Speaker 5: is and absent one from the FAA or the NTSP,
Speaker 5: actually put together for the purpose of the presentation, what
Speaker 5: I think is a reasonable definition of the UAP, which would,
Speaker 5: among other things, include a classic UFO and like I
Speaker 5: said earlier in our discussion, a conventional aircraft and an
Speaker 5: unconventional location or a phenomena that is simply unknown and unexplainable.
Speaker 5: I would like them to follow something not exactly mine,
Speaker 5: but something where it's comprehensive, it's objected. It's something where
Speaker 5: if you're a pilot or an air traffic controller and
Speaker 5: you see a UAP, you'd like to look up in
Speaker 5: the REGs and say, Okay, does this fit the definition?
Speaker 4: Yes or no?
Speaker 5: If yes, I go reported over here that system does
Speaker 5: not yet exist.
Speaker 4: And you say that this information, forget all this alien
Speaker 4: et curant whatever. You say that just compiling all this
Speaker 4: information using that data, you're saying even old data from
Speaker 4: fifty years ago can help us with safety in flight today. Correct. Absolutely.
Speaker 5: Aviation safety is what I like to describe as something
Speaker 5: that does not care about time or space. There are
Speaker 5: events that happen almost one hundred years ago. For example,
Speaker 5: everyone in the world has seen the famous picture of
Speaker 5: the Zeppelin going up in Lake Hers, New Jersey, Brandenberg
Speaker 5: Classic case, and some of the elements of that you
Speaker 5: can still learn from today if you're in the aviation
Speaker 5: safety business. So yes, if you have an encounter from
Speaker 5: fifty years ago, there's certain characteristics. You have one from
Speaker 5: fifty minutes ago. Certain characteristics are there similarities. Is there
Speaker 5: a pattern that one should look for? And if you
Speaker 5: had this certain pattern, does that inform you as to
Speaker 5: what counter moves a pilot should make should they encounter
Speaker 5: something like this. If you knew nothing about starlink, you're
Speaker 5: flying along and you see fifty lights in a row
Speaker 5: going across the sky above you. You're flying at thirty
Speaker 5: thousand feet, your first thought might be, that's at fifty
Speaker 5: thousand feet because actually, because of the speed and the
Speaker 5: distance looks like the speed of a stratospheric airliner going over.
Speaker 5: You say, who the heck is flying fifty airliners in
Speaker 5: a row without reporting? For shure, So again, if no
Speaker 5: one feels that they have the ability or we respect
Speaker 5: it if they report this. If no one reports this,
Speaker 5: you cannot analyze it. If you can't analyze it, you
Speaker 5: can't make rational decisions as to what you do next.
Speaker 5: You can't assess the risk and therefore assess the potential
Speaker 5: safety impacts without the data.
Speaker 4: You've mentioned these drones several times today. Do you know
Speaker 4: where we're at with the drone technology? Because it feels
Speaker 4: to me, like, you know, these things seem like they
Speaker 4: could be quiet. They run on hydrogen or electric there's
Speaker 4: different things they're proposing. It seems like we're on the
Speaker 4: but these drones becoming more manned drones I'm talking about
Speaker 4: coming out soon. This might lead to a whole bunch
Speaker 4: of uaper reports because people won't know what they're seeing.
Speaker 5: Well, for that, I recommended that people look at all
Speaker 5: the many, many, many videos that are coming out out
Speaker 5: of Ukraine. The evolution of drone technique and technology is
Speaker 5: like massive going on over there. There are things that
Speaker 5: I look at that and it's like, yeah, this is
Speaker 5: conventional technology being used in ways that the military minds
Speaker 5: and the Pentagon never thought of because they have to
Speaker 5: rapidly evolve their technique and their skills in the field.
Speaker 5: So yes, this will inform the design of future technology
Speaker 5: and how that future technology is used. Right now today,
Speaker 5: you or I can off the shelf, go to Amazon
Speaker 5: get a semi autonomous drone where you can program it
Speaker 5: to fly at certain place, take pictures and come back.
Speaker 5: It's only a small hop, skip and a jump to
Speaker 5: program it to do something other than take pictures. And
Speaker 5: you see that happening in Ukraine as we speak.
Speaker 4: I can imagine this is going to get get even
Speaker 4: more convoluted than it is already. Before I let you go,
Speaker 4: I definitely want to ask you about You've been in
Speaker 4: aviation for a long time, obviously. Have you looked at
Speaker 4: these different videos, the famous military videos that came out,
Speaker 4: like the TikTok video, Tictac video, and the go Fast
Speaker 4: and gimbal Have you seen those? And what are your
Speaker 4: thoughts on those?
Speaker 5: I have, and I sort of casually looked at them
Speaker 5: until the military the government said yes, these are authentic
Speaker 5: videos and we don't know what they are. It's like,
Speaker 5: what you're acknowledging that this multi billion dollar over decades
Speaker 5: technology caught something that you can't explain. Now, I'm really intrigued. Yes,
Speaker 5: I have seen those and seen many others, and some
Speaker 5: of them it's like, Okay, I've been around aviation for
Speaker 5: a while. And in fact, when nineteen eighties, when I
Speaker 5: was at Edwards, I was working at a test facility
Speaker 5: where they had some of the early infrared targeting systems
Speaker 5: for aircraft. This is like what eighty four eighty five
Speaker 5: and crewed by today's standards, but even back then it
Speaker 5: was like a revelation to see what this technology could do.
Speaker 5: And again we've had forty years of improving computers and
Speaker 5: microchips and everything else. So not just infrared, not just
Speaker 5: visible light. You also have electromagnetic sensing systems on board aircraft.
Speaker 5: You also have multiple platforms. You might have space based
Speaker 5: assets combined with land based assets, and you know, in
Speaker 5: the atmosphere assets and human eyeballs looking at the same thing.
Speaker 5: Compiling that information and then coming to a conclusion way
Speaker 5: more complex than just a single tic TAC video. This
Speaker 5: happens on a daily basis. Oh wow, if something big
Speaker 5: happens like in other Phoenix lights. Phoenix Lights was ninety seven,
Speaker 5: Chicago's two thousand and six. This is before the iPhone era.
Speaker 5: If it happens today, it will be like Kobe's helicopter crash.
Speaker 5: You have all kinds of dor cams, you know, audio crams,
Speaker 5: you can go on the flight tracking system and flight
Speaker 5: the track. We'll have more information you can shake a
Speaker 5: stick at.
Speaker 4: So if something I think about that now and Roswell happened,
Speaker 4: nobody had a camera and nobody knew it. Now, my god,
Speaker 4: I think if something did happen, we're going to have
Speaker 4: a lot of footage. Oh yeah, wow, Well we're gonna
Speaker 4: have to stop there, Todd, I really really appreciate it.
Speaker 4: I really enjoyed talking to you about this stuff. So
Speaker 4: thanks for coming on. Well, thanks for having me absolutely brother,
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to Beyond Contact. We're going to be
Speaker 4: back next week with an all new episode. You can
Speaker 4: follow me Captain Ron on Twitter and Instagram at CID
Speaker 4: Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out Contact intheesert
Speaker 4: dot com. Stay open minded and rational as we explore
Speaker 4: the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to
Speaker 4: Coast am Paranormal Podcast Network.
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Speaker 6: Mm hmm