WEBVTT - Inside Le Monstre (with Dennis Cooper and Matt Graves) 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:04.600 Hey everyone, Matt here, your host and producer of Lo Monstre. 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:08.119 I'm happy to share this bonus episode with a discussion 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.360 between myself and Dennis Cooper, the creator and host of Culpable. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.960 I was particularly stoked to have this conversation with Dennis 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.799 because I'm a rabid fan of his work. I was 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.239 flattered to learn that he's an enthusiast of La Monstre himself, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.400 and so it was a fascinating behind the scenes discussion 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.639 about being in the thick of this incredible second season 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.880 and trying to solve this insane and terrifying case. As always, 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.960 thank you for listening and enjoy the bonus episode. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.600 Both seasons, season one and season two of La Monstra 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.320 take place in Belgium. But I was actually surprised to 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.800 learn that you're not from there. You're from the States here, 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:54.320 So if you could just first give me a little 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.560 bit about your backstory and just ultimately I would love 0:00:57.600 --> 0:00:58.960 to know how you wound up there. 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.279 I'm a richly from Austin, Texas, where I grew up, 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.959 and in nineteen ninety five I ended up living in Brussels. 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.559 I thought I'd be here for a couple of months 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.360 to be honest, and then I ended with a wife, 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:18.199 house and pets and the whole catastrophe and been living 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:20.479 here ever since. But I still have a family back 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:22.480 in Austin, and I go back to Austin all the time. 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.400 I was just there. My brother and my dad especially 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.880 are there. And I moved here in June of nineteen 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:34.039 ninety five, which was right when the true affair sort 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.199 of started, so I kind of lived through that as 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:42.640 a bystander, if you will, but totally new to the country, 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.720 which made that whole thing something that just sort of 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.240 left a mark on me. I remembered it from the time. 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:53.320 At the time, I had no idea I would ever 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:59.720 be involved in in doing true crime investigations. But you know, 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:04.080 when I did my first true crime investigation, I chose 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.160 that story because that story had marked me so strongly, 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:10.240 because I remember it vividly. 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:12.280 And actually I was going to ask you to go 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:13.799 a little further into that, because that was that was 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.360 gonna be the next question I had. Really was Season 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.040 one kind of, like you said, it seems to as 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.960 far as the timeline goes unraveled sort of as you 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:28.400 moved there. Whereas with Season two, those events, you know, 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.720 happened after you had moved, and so I was curious, like, 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.360 I have to imagine the way that you learned and 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.400 know about each of these cases was a little bit different. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.360 Is that something you can kind of expand on, I guess, 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.960 like how you first learned of these and what about 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:43.840 each of these stories? 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.919 You know? Enthralled you absolutely? I mean for the true case, right, 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.840 it's it's the biggest case in the history of this country, 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.080 for sure. And I certainly had no desire whatsoever in 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:00.360 my life to dive into the awful subject of a 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:04.480 serial killer who prayed on children and abused them. That 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:06.400 that would be the last thing I would ever imagine 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:11.040 myself being interested in. But that particular case has so 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.880 many twists and turns it really, I mean, it's cliche, 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.840 but it's like a Hollywood script couldn't do a better job. 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.360 I mean, this guy he went on way too long 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.639 and wasn't caught. There's potential corruption, there's definitely in competence, 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.680 there's he escaped, you know. I mean, it's just it 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.160 goes on and on, and that story is just such 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.480 a big part of the psyche in this country and 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.840 a sign for that time of what they called in Belgium, 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.440 they always call it dysfunction mo, you know, the dysfunctioning 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:46.080 of the system. And actually Belgium has reformed incredibly since 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.520 then and is much much better, because I do remember 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.560 it in nineteen ninety five, and I do remember the 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:54.440 cops and the way it was here. It was very 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:56.760 different than it is now, to be honest, it was 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.720 there were almost parts of Belgium that felt kind of 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.960 thorough world, which is strange because it's a fairly rich 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.960 with great culture and beautiful architecture and everything else. But 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.800 it was, especially in that time, a very strange place 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.960 in certain ways. And the crazy thing about to link 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.120 it to this new case is that this new case 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.760 actually started just after the true affair was getting started. 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:24.360 And it's a case that was beneath the surface, really 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:26.919 because everything, I mean, the true affair was such a 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:31.200 big deal here on the news, in the newspaper, in politicians, 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.360 I mean, everything was like it was a big national thing, 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.080 the biggest protest in the history of the country and 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:40.320 one of the biggest, maybe the biggest in the history 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:44.039 of Europe. Almost around that whole thing. But underneath the 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:49.000 surface there was a really vicious and awful serial killer 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:54.640 at work abducting young women. And the crazy thing is 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.600 that he was never caught. And I remember in French 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.640 the name of this case I mean is Le depesur 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.640 de Masse, which means basically, it means the slicer technically, 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.240 but any translation is always going to end up with 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.599 the Butcher of mass. And I remember originally thinking, I 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:13.800 don't think I want to cover this story because it 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.920 just sounds like a slasher, you know, it sounds just 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.560 like a sensationalist type of thing, and you know, I 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:23.320 got enough of that maybe with the the true affair, 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.719 you know. And it was becoming obvious because I do cases. 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.599 I do stuff in French as well that's not published 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:33.200 via the normal channels but for the national broadcaster here 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.000 in Belgium and some of the people that listen to 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:37.880 those and so forth. Everyone's like, well, you're going to 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:40.719 have to cover this case now, and I was like, 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.719 didn't want to do it necessarily because I thought, oh god, 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.440 I just don't want to be the guy who's doing 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.839 every sensational case. I'd rather find like like what you do, 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.320 Dennis Unculpable. I mean, I just absolutely the biggest fan 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.919 of your podcast and love everything you do and listen 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.400 to every season you cover. And one of the things 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.400 I love about what you cover is there small stories 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:05.280 that aren't necessarily, you know, big sensationalized events or affairs, 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:07.800 and I was wanting to do something more like that, 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:10.800 but I looked at this case then and I thought, 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.880 oh my god, this case is crazy. And I mean 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:17.160 the crazy crazy part of this case is that it's 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.839 never been solved. I mean, the butcher of Monts is 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:22.000 still out there somewhere. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.160 That had to be a tough decision, honestly committing to 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.400 each of these stories, just because of the nature of 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:29.960 each of them, just how gruesome they are. And like 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.560 you said, we don't want to ever be misconstrued for 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.760 sensationalizing something. You know, you mentioned culpable, and I'd say 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.040 that's a little bit easier because these are like small 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:41.880 town cold cases. But these are big cases that you know, 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.560 rocked that country, that there's been stories told about, and 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.440 so that challenge of coming at it from a different angle, 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.240 I'm sure that presented some challenges for you, but I 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:55.240 think it's something that you navigated really well, just being 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.400 sensitive to the victims, giving everyone a voice, in that 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.720 I'm just telling it. I don't mean this a negative way, 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.800 but just in a very straightforward way that for me, 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.000 as an American listener, was very easy to follow along 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.320 with a to Z understand the story, understand the persons 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.440 in it, and you know, just this long history of 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.160 this case, between the crimes happening and the trials and 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.520 eventual conviction and everything else that's woven into it. I mean, 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.720 if you haven't listened to season one, he's just done 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:24.880 an amazing job on it. I would highly recommend you 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.800 listening to it. Was that your first podcast or had 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.320 you already made the ones that you mentioned previously in 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:33.600 French before doing that one? 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.880 Actually my first podcast was It was about a story 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.520 that happened in Vietnam. It's a crazy also crazy story, 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.559 to be honest, but this I literally made like sitting 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.120 in my underwear in front of a computer with like 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:51.240 minimum skills and everything else. It's called Harry Hai or 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.600 Y And that's a podcast about an incredible search and 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.760 rescue mission that took place over several days in North Vietnam, 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.400 the border of North Vietnam and Laos. And what was 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.160 interesting about that one is all of the key players 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.920 in that story were like all eighty five years old, 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.960 and I interviewed them and captured their real voices to 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.080 tell that story. But that was a good storytelling, of course, 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.679 the production quality and several when I listened to parts 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:18.720 of it now I kind of cringe. But that was 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:20.680 my start. And then and then, but this was the 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.920 big one, right. Luckily I had a little bit of 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.040 experience before I went into this, but this was big, 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:29.720 and working with Tenderfoot TV and Donald Albright and so forth, 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:34.760 it was a massive undertaking for me season one, and yeah, 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:37.520 it really sucked the life out of me in many ways, 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:39.120 to be honest, because at the beginning I thought I 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.040 would just tell the story, but of course I got 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:45.560 deeply involved and involved with families, involved with what's going 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:49.800 on in the courts and new investigation angles and things 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.240 like that. So it really became just sort of like 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.200 like you know very well when you get into a case, 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:59.800 just completely overwhelming. Now on this season two, I also 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.840 in the meantime done things in French only, and so 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.760 I do have a lot more experience. And that's great 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:10.600 because you make big mistakes in your first in your 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:12.840 first fouries into this medium. 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.520 All too familiar with that. How did you approach this 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.880 work different from the very first show you created, Like, 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.800 let's you know, focus on just on season one when 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:22.520 you first kind of were dipping your toes in the 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:24.600 true crime space, and also on the end of that, 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.800 I'm curious, like, what has been the reception to season 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:31.080 one both across the world but they're at home as well. 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.319 Yeah, when season one published, there was like a front 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:39.440 page article about it and across several national newspapers, and 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.480 I was invited on national TV to talk about it 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.080 and on radio, and it was kind of a big deal, 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:47.000 and a lot of people were kind of like, this 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.200 is this American guy and what right does he have 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.600 to tell our story? But I think that once they 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.719 start to started to realize and those who could understand it, 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.160 they were like, Okay, wow, okay, you really did tell 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.640 this story. And I've had lots of Belgians come tell me, 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.360 you know, thank you for that, because you know, it's 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.839 such a long and complicated story with so many political 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.040 you know, irons in the fire and various it's a 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.559 big it's hard to even explain how big this story 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:14.840 is here and how much division there is around this 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:16.599 story and stuff that. So I had a lot of 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:18.680 people who were just like, great, thank you for telling 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.040 this story, and we think you did it quite honestly. 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.080 I mean, I do have people that are like, you know, 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.040 didn't think I told it exactly right. But look, like 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.120 I said, there's all these different people with different agendas, 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.480 which we won't go into necessarily right now, I don't think. 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.200 But that was just like I had no idea what 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.400 I was getting into it, to be honest. I mean again, 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.719 because this case is so huge. These families in the 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.959 season one have been through so much. It's like, if 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.920 you want to design the perfect torture for someone, you 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.080 would do what happened to these families, not only losing 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.760 their children, but just being lied to and run around 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.320 by the government, and then you know, eventually maybe learning 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.920 that there was complicity involved with the murder and abusive 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.200 their children. So that that one is just so big, 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.320 so political, so difficult. But I somehow did break through 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.200 because I had the time. I just decided I'm going 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:09.760 to tell this right. I don't care how long it 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.840 takes me. This new season is different in that it 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.920 is still a big case. I mean to give you 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.600 an idea like if this were in the United States, 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.760 this case that I covered in season two, this would 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:24.560 be one of the big ones, right, this would be 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:28.040 like the Zodiac Killer or something to that level, because 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:33.480 we're talking about five victims and we're talking about very 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.520 particular It's not just they just died. I mean things 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:41.680 happen to them that are grotesque and it's just crazy. 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.160 The story. I mean it links, you know, like there's 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:49.079 a question about the sites in which the bodies were found, 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.200 or I should say the dismembered bodies were found of 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:56.680 the five victims, and those names of those places, like 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:00.320 the street names or the place names. A few will 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:03.640 are very evocative names like the River of Hate, the 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:08.240 Path of Worry, Fear Creek, Bethlehem Road, And it's like 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.760 the entire country and including the police and judiciary, thought 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.439 that they had a serial killer who was chopping people 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.840 up and putting them in places on purpose with evocative 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:23.600 names to taunt everyone. And that's what was going on. 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.199 And it was like not just like they made one 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.679 big finding. These findings happened one after the other, and 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.680 they kept finding and finding, and then they realized, like 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.960 after they made the first find, the next day they 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:37.880 made another find, and then the next day after that 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.040 they made another find, and that the find that they 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:45.440 made on the third day of discoveries was a new disposal, right, So, 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.040 I mean it was like, holy shit, this thing is 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:52.920 happening in real time before our very eyes. A serial 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:58.160 killer is terrorizing the city of Moss and murdering women, 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.400 chopping them up and dumping their bodies in places with 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:09.000 evocative names. It's just like it. It's really a crazy story. 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:35.880 I couldn't agree with you more. I thought the same thing, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.840 like it definitely would be a massive story here. And 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.640 the interesting thing about that is, as somebody who feels 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:45.640 like they keep up with drue crime pretty well and 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.920 know most of your major stories out there, I had 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.600 never heard of it. Could you just give me a 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:52.959 quick description of the story? Do you put it in 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:53.880 a nutshell for us? 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.920 Yeah? Absolutely. The way it kind of kicked off for 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.480 the public is that there was this nice, this thirty 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.520 three year old woman who disappeared in the city of Malls. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.600 People thought she was just a missing person. Her sister 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.040 was looking for her. Three months later, another young woman 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.800 went missing. Not so many people were looking for her 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.800 because she was kind of living a precarious lifestyle. And 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.640 then about a week after she disappeared, then there was 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.360 this just incredible discovery of eight trash bags full of 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.000 body parts just on the side, like kind of on 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.240 a ditch on the side of the road, and the 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:28.560 cops just couldn't believe it. And then they didn't even know. 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:30.280 All they knew was that they didn't link it in 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.080 any way to these missing women at all. They just 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.160 suddenly found a bunch of trash bags full of body 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.320 parts of women. And the strange thing as well, is 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.240 that the first dump of eight trash bags full of 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.720 body parts, all the body parts were at different stages 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.880 of decomposition, and so they were trying to figure out, 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.880 like who could these people be. They didn't even know 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:53.760 in the beginning how many people they had, right, They 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.680 really literally had to I mean, it's gruesome to think about, 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.680 but they literally had to piece the bodies together, and 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:01.880 of course they didn't have all the body parts, they 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.440 didn't have the heads, and the killer had removed any 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.960 distinguishing marks, like on one of the fore arms of 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.080 one of those victims there was a tattoo and he 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.360 had removed that with something and then they finally traced 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.640 it back to these two missing women. But then there 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.640 was this third woman who was older. The level of 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.280 decomposition was, you know, look to be six months old 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.720 as opposed to recent They kind of traced that back 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.080 and then without giving the whole thing away, right, I mean, 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.320 this thing just blows up. And the thing is though, 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:38.320 that they can't find the killer. Not only are they 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:42.240 like finding body parts after the first discovery that have 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:47.880 been dumped since the first discovery, but then another woman 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.280 goes missing and it's like, oh my god, she has 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.800 a similar profile as to other victims, so you know 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.000 he's still out there. I mean, it was crazy, like 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.800 Belgium has never had a serial killer case like this 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.600 for I mean five victims. I mean, helicopters were in 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.360 the air, everyone was afraid to pick up trash bags 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.200 and when you look at this, you think, oh my god, 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.720 they've had to have caught the guy, right, But they didn't. 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.160 And that's of course what piqued my interest because what 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.640 I really do like to do is try to contribute 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.760 to an investigation like you do when I've listened to 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.840 your shows. I mean, with the True Affair, there was 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.600 not necessarily a crime to solve, but there were people 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.080 that were possibly involved that were never brought to justice, 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.560 So you know, I was still looking for truth there 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.400 in this case. You know, we're really just looking for 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:37.800 the killer, to be honest, That's what we're trying to do. 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:40.920 And you know, one of the things that I've learned 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.560 and that has proved invaluable in this project and a 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.000 couple of previous ones in French that I did as well, 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.280 is to build what I call a cold case team 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.520 around the case, right, and you need to find people. 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:54.920 They have to be the right people to help you 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.360 solve it. And in this case, I have a team 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.400 of really talented people, a guy who wrote a book 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:05.760 about this case, a very famous investigative journalist who writes 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.000 for Paris Match, the famous French magazine, as well as 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.560 a private investigator myself, and then someone who was actually 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.520 involved with the judiciary who's kind of remains unnamed. And 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.480 the five of us are really just going hard and 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.800 heavy into this. And it's really interesting because to those guys, 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.080 they don't really care that much about the podcast, right, 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:28.919 They're like, they want to solve this case. You know, 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.040 everyone wants to do a documentary about this. There have 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:35.200 been documentaries about it in French and the French TVs 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.480 and everyone's after this thing, right, and these two guys, 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:40.640 especially the guy who wrote the book and the journalist, 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.199 they're the real tip of the spear that they know 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.800 everything what's going on in this case. And what's fantastic 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.040 is they agreed to work with me because they had 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.560 heard the approach, right, the sort of tenderfoot approach, if 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:56.240 you will, of not just like trying to sensationalize a story, 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.440 but actually trying to move it forward. We're still very 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.920 deep into the very very deep into it. Actually. That's 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.840 what really gets me up out of bed, is to say, like, 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:11.040 maybe we could find the killer or at least maybe 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.040 you know, we can shed light and help someone else 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:17.240 or help the investigation move forward, which we've already done. 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:19.639 Yeah. I think I maybe like wrongly assumed you might 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.399 go a similar approach as like to true and tackle 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.440 a case that's been solved, I guess you could say. 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.320 And so it was a pleasant surprise to see you 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.360 take on a more active investigation a case that's unsolved, 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.280 because in a way just automatically makes it feel like 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.760 the stakes are a little bit higher with this one. 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.439 But to your point about kind of surrounding yourself with 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:40.480 the team, I mean, I'm such a firm believer in 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.600 that you've probably picked up on that listen to Culpable. 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.919 You know, everyone has their limitations, and ultimately, I just 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.040 feel like, you know, there is strength in numbers just 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.200 make such a huge difference. It's something I've always been 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.800 a firm believer of. And I think you know that 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.359 excites me about this too, that you've chosen to go 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.760 that route and kind of build a team around you, 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.600 because you know it's it's cliche, but it really does 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.479 take a village to like make movement on these cases, 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.640 especially ones as old as this one. Have there been 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.720 any specific challenges that this has presented you that maybe 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.920 season one did not or just overall, like what's been 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:16.000 the biggest difference. 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.600 Yeah, it's it's very very different. The biggest challenge, well, 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.080 this is a challenge in general in Belgium, to be honest, 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.200 but it's it's the you know, like Omerta, like where 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.600 people just don't talk and there's a real strong culture 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.480 of that here. It like dates back to the Nazi 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.919 era when like you know, people would not tell anybody 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:40.000 about anything, because you know, the Nazis were occupying Brussels 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.720 or whatever, and like, you know, they were looking for 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.040 for victims or people to you know, to persecute, and 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.560 and that just everyone's like, you know, don't say anything. 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:50.679 And that was the culture for a long time. And 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.080 it's I don't know, it's a central European country that's 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.480 had a lot of invasions. It's been occupied by Spain 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.199 and Italy and France and the Netherlands and and so 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.760 like it's there's a long history of sort of being 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.480 occupied in war and strife and all kinds of stuff 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.159 here and I don't know, I guess all of that 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.600 historical trauma has made the Belgians just they don't just 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.720 talk very easily about stuff. And this is so god 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.280 this case. It is just so hard to get people 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.280 to talk. And there are some people that are afraid 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:26.400 to talk as well, because they really believe, well, they 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.120 know that the killer is most likely still out there. 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.480 You know, the people that I want to talk are 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:35.000 people that the killer knows that I want to talk. 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.719 So there's a whole scare element which is very different. 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.440 And then there's another element, which is that this is 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.719 an active case. And in Belgium, they don't have this 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:51.760 phenomenon of like, you know, active investigation podcasts, and they 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:53.639 just think of a podcast as just like telling a 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.120 story or talking on the radio, right, And so they're 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.600 starting to understand like what we're doing here, and they're like, 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.120 wait a minute, who do you guys think you are? 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.000 You know, so not only have we gotten the attention 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:08.040 of the police, but we've gotten the attention of the 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:13.600 judiciary and they know exactly what we're doing. And this 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.720 is a big case. So like it's on the message board, 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.920 like there's message boards and forums and stuff around this case, 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:21.560 and it's like, oh, we hear that. You know, these 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.199 guys are doing something. And now you know, one of 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.280 the guys on our team was kind of warned by 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.359 an ex judge that he shouldn't be getting mixed up 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.800 with this and we need to be careful and so 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.159