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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Matt here, your host and producer of Lo Monstre.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to share this bonus episode with a discussion

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Speaker 1: between myself and Dennis Cooper, the creator and host of Culpable.

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Speaker 1: I was particularly stoked to have this conversation with Dennis

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Speaker 1: because I'm a rabid fan of his work. I was

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Speaker 1: flattered to learn that he's an enthusiast of La Monstre himself,

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Speaker 1: and so it was a fascinating behind the scenes discussion

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Speaker 1: about being in the thick of this incredible second season

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Speaker 1: and trying to solve this insane and terrifying case. As always,

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Speaker 1: thank you for listening and enjoy the bonus episode.

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Speaker 2: Both seasons, season one and season two of La Monstra

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Speaker 2: take place in Belgium. But I was actually surprised to

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Speaker 2: learn that you're not from there. You're from the States here,

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Speaker 2: So if you could just first give me a little

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Speaker 2: bit about your backstory and just ultimately I would love

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Speaker 2: to know how you wound up there.

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Speaker 1: I'm a richly from Austin, Texas, where I grew up,

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Speaker 1: and in nineteen ninety five I ended up living in Brussels.

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Speaker 1: I thought I'd be here for a couple of months

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Speaker 1: to be honest, and then I ended with a wife,

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Speaker 1: house and pets and the whole catastrophe and been living

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Speaker 1: here ever since. But I still have a family back

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Speaker 1: in Austin, and I go back to Austin all the time.

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Speaker 1: I was just there. My brother and my dad especially

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Speaker 1: are there. And I moved here in June of nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety five, which was right when the true affair sort

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Speaker 1: of started, so I kind of lived through that as

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Speaker 1: a bystander, if you will, but totally new to the country,

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Speaker 1: which made that whole thing something that just sort of

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Speaker 1: left a mark on me. I remembered it from the time.

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Speaker 1: At the time, I had no idea I would ever

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Speaker 1: be involved in in doing true crime investigations. But you know,

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Speaker 1: when I did my first true crime investigation, I chose

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Speaker 1: that story because that story had marked me so strongly,

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Speaker 1: because I remember it vividly.

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Speaker 2: And actually I was going to ask you to go

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Speaker 2: a little further into that, because that was that was

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Speaker 2: gonna be the next question I had. Really was Season

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Speaker 2: one kind of, like you said, it seems to as

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Speaker 2: far as the timeline goes unraveled sort of as you

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Speaker 2: moved there. Whereas with Season two, those events, you know,

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Speaker 2: happened after you had moved, and so I was curious, like,

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Speaker 2: I have to imagine the way that you learned and

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Speaker 2: know about each of these cases was a little bit different.

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Speaker 2: Is that something you can kind of expand on, I guess,

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Speaker 2: like how you first learned of these and what about

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Speaker 2: each of these stories?

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Speaker 1: You know? Enthralled you absolutely? I mean for the true case, right,

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Speaker 1: it's it's the biggest case in the history of this country,

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Speaker 1: for sure. And I certainly had no desire whatsoever in

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Speaker 1: my life to dive into the awful subject of a

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Speaker 1: serial killer who prayed on children and abused them. That

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Speaker 1: that would be the last thing I would ever imagine

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Speaker 1: myself being interested in. But that particular case has so

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Speaker 1: many twists and turns it really, I mean, it's cliche,

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Speaker 1: but it's like a Hollywood script couldn't do a better job.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this guy he went on way too long

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Speaker 1: and wasn't caught. There's potential corruption, there's definitely in competence,

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Speaker 1: there's he escaped, you know. I mean, it's just it

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Speaker 1: goes on and on, and that story is just such

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Speaker 1: a big part of the psyche in this country and

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Speaker 1: a sign for that time of what they called in Belgium,

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Speaker 1: they always call it dysfunction mo, you know, the dysfunctioning

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Speaker 1: of the system. And actually Belgium has reformed incredibly since

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Speaker 1: then and is much much better, because I do remember

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Speaker 1: it in nineteen ninety five, and I do remember the

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Speaker 1: cops and the way it was here. It was very

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Speaker 1: different than it is now, to be honest, it was

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Speaker 1: there were almost parts of Belgium that felt kind of

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Speaker 1: thorough world, which is strange because it's a fairly rich

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Speaker 1: with great culture and beautiful architecture and everything else. But

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Speaker 1: it was, especially in that time, a very strange place

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Speaker 1: in certain ways. And the crazy thing about to link

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Speaker 1: it to this new case is that this new case

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Speaker 1: actually started just after the true affair was getting started.

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Speaker 1: And it's a case that was beneath the surface, really

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Speaker 1: because everything, I mean, the true affair was such a

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Speaker 1: big deal here on the news, in the newspaper, in politicians,

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Speaker 1: I mean, everything was like it was a big national thing,

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Speaker 1: the biggest protest in the history of the country and

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest, maybe the biggest in the history

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Speaker 1: of Europe. Almost around that whole thing. But underneath the

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Speaker 1: surface there was a really vicious and awful serial killer

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Speaker 1: at work abducting young women. And the crazy thing is

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Speaker 1: that he was never caught. And I remember in French

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Speaker 1: the name of this case I mean is Le depesur

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Speaker 1: de Masse, which means basically, it means the slicer technically,

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Speaker 1: but any translation is always going to end up with

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Speaker 1: the Butcher of mass. And I remember originally thinking, I

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Speaker 1: don't think I want to cover this story because it

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Speaker 1: just sounds like a slasher, you know, it sounds just

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Speaker 1: like a sensationalist type of thing, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: got enough of that maybe with the the true affair,

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Speaker 1: you know. And it was becoming obvious because I do cases.

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Speaker 1: I do stuff in French as well that's not published

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Speaker 1: via the normal channels but for the national broadcaster here

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Speaker 1: in Belgium and some of the people that listen to

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Speaker 1: those and so forth. Everyone's like, well, you're going to

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Speaker 1: have to cover this case now, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: didn't want to do it necessarily because I thought, oh god,

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Speaker 1: I just don't want to be the guy who's doing

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Speaker 1: every sensational case. I'd rather find like like what you do,

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Speaker 1: Dennis Unculpable. I mean, I just absolutely the biggest fan

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Speaker 1: of your podcast and love everything you do and listen

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Speaker 1: to every season you cover. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: I love about what you cover is there small stories

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Speaker 1: that aren't necessarily, you know, big sensationalized events or affairs,

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Speaker 1: and I was wanting to do something more like that,

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Speaker 1: but I looked at this case then and I thought,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, this case is crazy. And I mean

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Speaker 1: the crazy crazy part of this case is that it's

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Speaker 1: never been solved. I mean, the butcher of Monts is

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Speaker 1: still out there somewhere.

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Speaker 2: That had to be a tough decision, honestly committing to

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Speaker 2: each of these stories, just because of the nature of

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Speaker 2: each of them, just how gruesome they are. And like

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Speaker 2: you said, we don't want to ever be misconstrued for

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Speaker 2: sensationalizing something. You know, you mentioned culpable, and I'd say

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Speaker 2: that's a little bit easier because these are like small

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Speaker 2: town cold cases. But these are big cases that you know,

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Speaker 2: rocked that country, that there's been stories told about, and

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Speaker 2: so that challenge of coming at it from a different angle,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that presented some challenges for you, but I

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Speaker 2: think it's something that you navigated really well, just being

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Speaker 2: sensitive to the victims, giving everyone a voice, in that

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Speaker 2: I'm just telling it. I don't mean this a negative way,

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Speaker 2: but just in a very straightforward way that for me,

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Speaker 2: as an American listener, was very easy to follow along

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Speaker 2: with a to Z understand the story, understand the persons

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Speaker 2: in it, and you know, just this long history of

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Speaker 2: this case, between the crimes happening and the trials and

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Speaker 2: eventual conviction and everything else that's woven into it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: if you haven't listened to season one, he's just done

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Speaker 2: an amazing job on it. I would highly recommend you

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Speaker 2: listening to it. Was that your first podcast or had

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Speaker 2: you already made the ones that you mentioned previously in

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Speaker 2: French before doing that one?

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Speaker 1: Actually my first podcast was It was about a story

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Speaker 1: that happened in Vietnam. It's a crazy also crazy story,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, but this I literally made like sitting

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Speaker 1: in my underwear in front of a computer with like

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Speaker 1: minimum skills and everything else. It's called Harry Hai or

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Speaker 1: Y And that's a podcast about an incredible search and

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Speaker 1: rescue mission that took place over several days in North Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: the border of North Vietnam and Laos. And what was

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Speaker 1: interesting about that one is all of the key players

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Speaker 1: in that story were like all eighty five years old,

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Speaker 1: and I interviewed them and captured their real voices to

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Speaker 1: tell that story. But that was a good storytelling, of course,

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Speaker 1: the production quality and several when I listened to parts

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Speaker 1: of it now I kind of cringe. But that was

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Speaker 1: my start. And then and then, but this was the

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Speaker 1: big one, right. Luckily I had a little bit of

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Speaker 1: experience before I went into this, but this was big,

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Speaker 1: and working with Tenderfoot TV and Donald Albright and so forth,

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Speaker 1: it was a massive undertaking for me season one, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really sucked the life out of me in many ways,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, because at the beginning I thought I

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Speaker 1: would just tell the story, but of course I got

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Speaker 1: deeply involved and involved with families, involved with what's going

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Speaker 1: on in the courts and new investigation angles and things

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Speaker 1: like that. So it really became just sort of like

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Speaker 1: like you know very well when you get into a case,

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Speaker 1: just completely overwhelming. Now on this season two, I also

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Speaker 1: in the meantime done things in French only, and so

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Speaker 1: I do have a lot more experience. And that's great

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Speaker 1: because you make big mistakes in your first in your

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Speaker 1: first fouries into this medium.

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Speaker 2: All too familiar with that. How did you approach this

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Speaker 2: work different from the very first show you created, Like,

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Speaker 2: let's you know, focus on just on season one when

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Speaker 2: you first kind of were dipping your toes in the

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Speaker 2: true crime space, and also on the end of that,

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Speaker 2: I'm curious, like, what has been the reception to season

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Speaker 2: one both across the world but they're at home as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when season one published, there was like a front

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Speaker 1: page article about it and across several national newspapers, and

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Speaker 1: I was invited on national TV to talk about it

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Speaker 1: and on radio, and it was kind of a big deal,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people were kind of like, this

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Speaker 1: is this American guy and what right does he have

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Speaker 1: to tell our story? But I think that once they

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Speaker 1: start to started to realize and those who could understand it,

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Speaker 1: they were like, Okay, wow, okay, you really did tell

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Speaker 1: this story. And I've had lots of Belgians come tell me,

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Speaker 1: you know, thank you for that, because you know, it's

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Speaker 1: such a long and complicated story with so many political

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Speaker 1: you know, irons in the fire and various it's a

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Speaker 1: big it's hard to even explain how big this story

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Speaker 1: is here and how much division there is around this

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Speaker 1: story and stuff that. So I had a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who were just like, great, thank you for telling

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Speaker 1: this story, and we think you did it quite honestly.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I do have people that are like, you know,

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Speaker 1: didn't think I told it exactly right. But look, like

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Speaker 1: I said, there's all these different people with different agendas,

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Speaker 1: which we won't go into necessarily right now, I don't think.

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Speaker 1: But that was just like I had no idea what

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Speaker 1: I was getting into it, to be honest. I mean again,

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Speaker 1: because this case is so huge. These families in the

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Speaker 1: season one have been through so much. It's like, if

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Speaker 1: you want to design the perfect torture for someone, you

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Speaker 1: would do what happened to these families, not only losing

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Speaker 1: their children, but just being lied to and run around

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Speaker 1: by the government, and then you know, eventually maybe learning

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Speaker 1: that there was complicity involved with the murder and abusive

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Speaker 1: their children. So that that one is just so big,

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Speaker 1: so political, so difficult. But I somehow did break through

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Speaker 1: because I had the time. I just decided I'm going

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Speaker 1: to tell this right. I don't care how long it

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Speaker 1: takes me. This new season is different in that it

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Speaker 1: is still a big case. I mean to give you

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Speaker 1: an idea like if this were in the United States,

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Speaker 1: this case that I covered in season two, this would

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Speaker 1: be one of the big ones, right, this would be

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Speaker 1: like the Zodiac Killer or something to that level, because

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Speaker 1: we're talking about five victims and we're talking about very

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Speaker 1: particular It's not just they just died. I mean things

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Speaker 1: happen to them that are grotesque and it's just crazy.

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Speaker 1: The story. I mean it links, you know, like there's

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Speaker 1: a question about the sites in which the bodies were found,

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Speaker 1: or I should say the dismembered bodies were found of

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Speaker 1: the five victims, and those names of those places, like

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Speaker 1: the street names or the place names. A few will

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Speaker 1: are very evocative names like the River of Hate, the

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Speaker 1: Path of Worry, Fear Creek, Bethlehem Road, And it's like

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Speaker 1: the entire country and including the police and judiciary, thought

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Speaker 1: that they had a serial killer who was chopping people

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Speaker 1: up and putting them in places on purpose with evocative

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Speaker 1: names to taunt everyone. And that's what was going on.

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Speaker 1: And it was like not just like they made one

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Speaker 1: big finding. These findings happened one after the other, and

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Speaker 1: they kept finding and finding, and then they realized, like

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Speaker 1: after they made the first find, the next day they

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Speaker 1: made another find, and then the next day after that

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Speaker 1: they made another find, and that the find that they

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Speaker 1: made on the third day of discoveries was a new disposal, right, So,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was like, holy shit, this thing is

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Speaker 1: happening in real time before our very eyes. A serial

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Speaker 1: killer is terrorizing the city of Moss and murdering women,

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Speaker 1: chopping them up and dumping their bodies in places with

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Speaker 1: evocative names. It's just like it. It's really a crazy story.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with you more. I thought the same thing,

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Speaker 2: like it definitely would be a massive story here. And

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Speaker 2: the interesting thing about that is, as somebody who feels

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Speaker 2: like they keep up with drue crime pretty well and

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Speaker 2: know most of your major stories out there, I had

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Speaker 2: never heard of it. Could you just give me a

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Speaker 2: quick description of the story? Do you put it in

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Speaker 2: a nutshell for us?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely. The way it kind of kicked off for

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Speaker 1: the public is that there was this nice, this thirty

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Speaker 1: three year old woman who disappeared in the city of Malls.

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Speaker 1: People thought she was just a missing person. Her sister

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Speaker 1: was looking for her. Three months later, another young woman

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Speaker 1: went missing. Not so many people were looking for her

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Speaker 1: because she was kind of living a precarious lifestyle. And

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Speaker 1: then about a week after she disappeared, then there was

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Speaker 1: this just incredible discovery of eight trash bags full of

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Speaker 1: body parts just on the side, like kind of on

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Speaker 1: a ditch on the side of the road, and the

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Speaker 1: cops just couldn't believe it. And then they didn't even know.

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Speaker 1: All they knew was that they didn't link it in

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Speaker 1: any way to these missing women at all. They just

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Speaker 1: suddenly found a bunch of trash bags full of body

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Speaker 1: parts of women. And the strange thing as well, is

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Speaker 1: that the first dump of eight trash bags full of

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Speaker 1: body parts, all the body parts were at different stages

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Speaker 1: of decomposition, and so they were trying to figure out,

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Speaker 1: like who could these people be. They didn't even know

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Speaker 1: in the beginning how many people they had, right, They

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Speaker 1: really literally had to I mean, it's gruesome to think about,

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Speaker 1: but they literally had to piece the bodies together, and

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Speaker 1: of course they didn't have all the body parts, they

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Speaker 1: didn't have the heads, and the killer had removed any

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Speaker 1: distinguishing marks, like on one of the fore arms of

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Speaker 1: one of those victims there was a tattoo and he

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Speaker 1: had removed that with something and then they finally traced

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Speaker 1: it back to these two missing women. But then there

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Speaker 1: was this third woman who was older. The level of

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Speaker 1: decomposition was, you know, look to be six months old

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Speaker 1: as opposed to recent They kind of traced that back

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Speaker 1: and then without giving the whole thing away, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: this thing just blows up. And the thing is though,

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Speaker 1: that they can't find the killer. Not only are they

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Speaker 1: like finding body parts after the first discovery that have

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Speaker 1: been dumped since the first discovery, but then another woman

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Speaker 1: goes missing and it's like, oh my god, she has

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Speaker 1: a similar profile as to other victims, so you know

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Speaker 1: he's still out there. I mean, it was crazy, like

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Speaker 1: Belgium has never had a serial killer case like this

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Speaker 1: for I mean five victims. I mean, helicopters were in

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Speaker 1: the air, everyone was afraid to pick up trash bags

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Speaker 1: and when you look at this, you think, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: they've had to have caught the guy, right, But they didn't.

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Speaker 1: And that's of course what piqued my interest because what

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Speaker 1: I really do like to do is try to contribute

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Speaker 1: to an investigation like you do when I've listened to

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Speaker 1: your shows. I mean, with the True Affair, there was

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Speaker 1: not necessarily a crime to solve, but there were people

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Speaker 1: that were possibly involved that were never brought to justice,

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Speaker 1: So you know, I was still looking for truth there

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Speaker 1: in this case. You know, we're really just looking for

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Speaker 1: the killer, to be honest, That's what we're trying to do.

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Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things that I've learned

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Speaker 1: and that has proved invaluable in this project and a

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Speaker 1: couple of previous ones in French that I did as well,

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Speaker 1: is to build what I call a cold case team

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Speaker 1: around the case, right, and you need to find people.

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Speaker 1: They have to be the right people to help you

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Speaker 1: solve it. And in this case, I have a team

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Speaker 1: of really talented people, a guy who wrote a book

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Speaker 1: about this case, a very famous investigative journalist who writes

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Speaker 1: for Paris Match, the famous French magazine, as well as

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Speaker 1: a private investigator myself, and then someone who was actually

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Speaker 1: involved with the judiciary who's kind of remains unnamed. And

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Speaker 1: the five of us are really just going hard and

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Speaker 1: heavy into this. And it's really interesting because to those guys,

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Speaker 1: they don't really care that much about the podcast, right,

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Speaker 1: They're like, they want to solve this case. You know,

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Speaker 1: everyone wants to do a documentary about this. There have

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Speaker 1: been documentaries about it in French and the French TVs

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Speaker 1: and everyone's after this thing, right, and these two guys,

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Speaker 1: especially the guy who wrote the book and the journalist,

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Speaker 1: they're the real tip of the spear that they know

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Speaker 1: everything what's going on in this case. And what's fantastic

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Speaker 1: is they agreed to work with me because they had

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Speaker 1: heard the approach, right, the sort of tenderfoot approach, if

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Speaker 1: you will, of not just like trying to sensationalize a story,

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Speaker 1: but actually trying to move it forward. We're still very

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Speaker 1: deep into the very very deep into it. Actually. That's

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Speaker 1: what really gets me up out of bed, is to say, like,

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Speaker 1: maybe we could find the killer or at least maybe

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Speaker 1: you know, we can shed light and help someone else

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Speaker 1: or help the investigation move forward, which we've already done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I maybe like wrongly assumed you might

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Speaker 2: go a similar approach as like to true and tackle

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Speaker 2: a case that's been solved, I guess you could say.

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Speaker 2: And so it was a pleasant surprise to see you

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Speaker 2: take on a more active investigation a case that's unsolved,

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Speaker 2: because in a way just automatically makes it feel like

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Speaker 2: the stakes are a little bit higher with this one.

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Speaker 2: But to your point about kind of surrounding yourself with

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Speaker 2: the team, I mean, I'm such a firm believer in

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Speaker 2: that you've probably picked up on that listen to Culpable.

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Speaker 2: You know, everyone has their limitations, and ultimately, I just

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Speaker 2: feel like, you know, there is strength in numbers just

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Speaker 2: make such a huge difference. It's something I've always been

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Speaker 2: a firm believer of. And I think you know that

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Speaker 2: excites me about this too, that you've chosen to go

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Speaker 2: that route and kind of build a team around you,

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Speaker 2: because you know it's it's cliche, but it really does

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Speaker 2: take a village to like make movement on these cases,

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Speaker 2: especially ones as old as this one. Have there been

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Speaker 2: any specific challenges that this has presented you that maybe

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Speaker 2: season one did not or just overall, like what's been

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Speaker 2: the biggest difference.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's very very different. The biggest challenge, well,

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Speaker 1: this is a challenge in general in Belgium, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's the you know, like Omerta, like where

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Speaker 1: people just don't talk and there's a real strong culture

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Speaker 1: of that here. It like dates back to the Nazi

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Speaker 1: era when like you know, people would not tell anybody

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Speaker 1: about anything, because you know, the Nazis were occupying Brussels

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Speaker 1: or whatever, and like, you know, they were looking for

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Speaker 1: for victims or people to you know, to persecute, and

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Speaker 1: and that just everyone's like, you know, don't say anything.

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Speaker 1: And that was the culture for a long time. And

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Speaker 1: it's I don't know, it's a central European country that's

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Speaker 1: had a lot of invasions. It's been occupied by Spain

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Speaker 1: and Italy and France and the Netherlands and and so

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Speaker 1: like it's there's a long history of sort of being

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Speaker 1: occupied in war and strife and all kinds of stuff

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Speaker 1: here and I don't know, I guess all of that

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Speaker 1: historical trauma has made the Belgians just they don't just

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Speaker 1: talk very easily about stuff. And this is so god

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Speaker 1: this case. It is just so hard to get people

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Speaker 1: to talk. And there are some people that are afraid

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Speaker 1: to talk as well, because they really believe, well, they

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Speaker 1: know that the killer is most likely still out there.

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Speaker 1: You know, the people that I want to talk are

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Speaker 1: people that the killer knows that I want to talk.

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Speaker 1: So there's a whole scare element which is very different.

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Speaker 1: And then there's another element, which is that this is

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Speaker 1: an active case. And in Belgium, they don't have this

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Speaker 1: phenomenon of like, you know, active investigation podcasts, and they

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Speaker 1: just think of a podcast as just like telling a

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Speaker 1: story or talking on the radio, right, And so they're

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Speaker 1: starting to understand like what we're doing here, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, who do you guys think you are?

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Speaker 1: You know, so not only have we gotten the attention

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Speaker 1: of the police, but we've gotten the attention of the

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Speaker 1: judiciary and they know exactly what we're doing. And this

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Speaker 1: is a big case. So like it's on the message board,

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Speaker 1: like there's message boards and forums and stuff around this case,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, we hear that. You know, these

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Speaker 1: guys are doing something. And now you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the guys on our team was kind of warned by

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Speaker 1: an ex judge that he shouldn't be getting mixed up

400
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Speaker 1: with this and we need to be careful and so

401
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 1: on and so forth. And it's all true because it

402
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,640
Speaker 1: is an active case. But what we've seen is that

403
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Speaker 1: the active case is not very active. And I think,

404
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: to be honest, well that's changing right now, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's in part because of us, because they've just

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Speaker 1: named a new investigating judge just very recently while I

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Speaker 1: was making episode eight. It's very special in Belgium to

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Speaker 1: have someone poking around like this.

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Speaker 2: I got to ask more about that then, So twofold

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Speaker 2: to kind of go back to what you're mentioned as

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Speaker 2: as the struggles with a getting people to talk, but

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Speaker 2: too just getting information on this case, Like how have

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Speaker 2: you made progress on this and what has kind of

414
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Speaker 2: been the result of all that in terms of maybe

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Speaker 2: you've also upset some people along the way possibly, So

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Speaker 2: could you kind of delve into that a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: Well in terms of getting information? So I think I

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Speaker 1: would love to give myself more credit, but so much

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Speaker 1: of the credit goes to the team, right this cold

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Speaker 1: case team that is working with me on this, and

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Speaker 1: each person has their own role and sort of responsibility.

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Speaker 1: One of the key people, Morgan, is a guy who's

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Speaker 1: just obsessed with this case and wrote a book about it,

424
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Speaker 1: and he's a very very smart young man. He has

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Speaker 1: interviewed and talked to is just literally every almost everybody

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Speaker 1: in most like anybody who will talk to him about

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Speaker 1: this thing. He's just been trying. He's been working this

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Speaker 1: thing for a long time. And then when I came along.

429
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Speaker 1: I was like, hey, build a team around this, because

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Speaker 1: you're sitting there doing this alone, right, And he's like,

431
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: oh my god, I would love that, you know, because

432
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: I'm all alone. And then so then we've got you know,

433
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: this great journalist, Frederick Lohre, and he's been writing in

434
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: this case and he is from mass and he was

435
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: a journalist at the time the case broke, right, and

436
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 1: he's still a good journalist and he's right on it.

437
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: And then we've got Exavier, who's this really great investigator

438
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: who could just find anybody anywhere. And then me kind

439
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 1: of like just keeping the trains running, right, Like we're

440
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: having zoom meetings every week, we're meeting once a month

441
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: face to face. We're and like so every time something

442
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: really interesting pop because there's all kinds of bullshit out there,

443
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: as you know, in any case, right, and this one

444
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: especially a lot of it, And so anytime something bubbles up,

445
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: that's sort of like we can we can crosscheck, crosscheck, Okay,

446
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 1: this looks real, let's go talk to this person. Right.

447
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: So unfortunately those so many of those discussions, they just

448
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: the people refuse categorically to not only not be recorded,

449
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: to like meet somewhere secret and no one can know,

450
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: and like it's just a whole thing around this that

451
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: it's frustrating as hell to be honest. And of course

452
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 1: we don't have the case file. There's no such thing

453
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: as a foia request in Belgium. But if you against

454
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: shoe leather, right, so loads of shoe leather, I mean

455
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: thousands of hours of shoe leather have gone into just

456
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 1: the investigation that you'll hear in this season. And I

457
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: am not exaggerating when I say that this is not

458
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: a for profit exercise, right, This is where the amount

459
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: of time and energy going into this is beyond the pale, right,

460
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 1: And so that's the way we've done it is literally

461
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: just talking to anyone who will talk to us. And

462
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: then of course you know, we're talking to some X cops.

463
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 1: But even like those X cops don't want anyone to like,

464
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: I have to be real careful like in anything we

465
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: say in French and so forth, because it's easy to

466
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: find who they might be if they're talking to us.

467
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: And so we've had a secret meeting those kind of

468
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: guys and stuff like that, right, And there's lawyers as well,

469
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: and you know, just you just do hooker crook. Getting

470
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: information is very, very difficult, but we've really cracked this

471
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: thing open. And when this podcast publishes, by the way,

472
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,479
Speaker 1: there's going to be a version of it in French.

473
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: And the real reason I really want to do it

474
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: in French is that I want the people in and

475
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: around the crime to hear this because we think that

476
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 1: we will get new information right based on the podcast.

477
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: But what's going to happen here when this thing publishes

478
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: is it's going to be a big deal because there's

479
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: information in here that no one at all has any

480
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: idea about, right. And What's been fantastic is the agreement

481
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: I've had with the guys I'm working with here that

482
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 1: even like Fredrik Loor, who is a journalist at Paris

483
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: Match and like he's got it, you know, he's breaking

484
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: stories for a living, right, But we've agreed that just

485
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: the stuff that we're going to release gonna wait for

486
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: the podcast to release it. So when it comes out

487
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: here in French, it's gonna be it's gonna be a

488
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: big deal.

489
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 2: You gonna have to like hunker down or what do

490
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: you what's your plan when that happens.

491
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: I think we'll probably there'll be articles. They'll probably be

492
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: radio and TV and all that, and then questions and

493
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: one guy that I interviewed in there might want to

494
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: try to kill me.

495
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: At least you can laugh about it.

496
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 1: Let's hope I'm alive in a year's time.

497
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 2: I admire you taking on a story in your backyard.

498
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 2: You know, it's something I've never done that to this

499
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 2: day as many cases I've covered, you know, I've considered it.

500
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: It's tricky because I like my piece and yeah, yeah,

501
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: So like anybody that does that, I'm just like, hats

502
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: off to you, because a part of me feels like

503
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: some butt of an obligation to do it. And maybe

504
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: I will at some point, but I haven't done it

505
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: yet because I think I just know I can like

506
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 2: already foresee what that's going to be. Like here if I,

507
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: you know, put a national spotlight on this local case.

508
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: Well, the key thing is to have in this because

509
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: you know, I've I thought about this. I thought like, like, look,

510
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: if I get close to finding who this person is, like,

511
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: this person could want to try to come kill me.

512
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: But one of the key things for the way I've

513
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: approached this as well is to do it as a team. Right,

514
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: So it's you're not alone, right, It's not just one

515
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: person you know that's responsible for it all. We're working together. Yep.

516
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with you more on that. And yeah,

517
00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: and it sounds like because you've you know, assembled a

518
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: team despite all the obstacles that this has provided. I mean,

519
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,479
Speaker 2: you seem very high on the progress that you have

520
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: made and what to expect the sees, which is really

521
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: exciting for me as a listener to hear about and

522
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 2: makes you want to tune in even more. To that point, though,

523
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: I also learned that Belgium has a statue limitation on

524
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: murder charges. How do you foresee that impacting this case?

525
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: And then I guess ultimately, do you believe that this

526
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: case can be solved?

527
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: I think the case can be solved definitely, and I

528
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: do believe. And this is this is breaking information. This

529
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: hasn't been published anywhere or anything. We recently put the

530
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: daughter of one of the victims in touch with a

531
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: lawyer who's representing her as a civil party in this

532
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: case and have made requests for case file information and

533
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: we're doing this with her, and we met with her

534
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: for a day. She joined one of our cold case

535
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: teams meetings. She didn't commit until after that meeting she

536
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: said yes, and then we literally walked her down the

537
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: street into the lawyer's office and set them up to

538
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: have him represent her and make requests to the judiciary

539
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: and so forth. In that discussion with the lawyer, he

540
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: said that he is going to request and believes that

541
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: he will or that the courts will decide that this

542
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: could be treated as I can't remember what it's called

543
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: in French even, but it's a there are some cases

544
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: that are so big that they can delete the statute

545
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: of limitations. So there's only one other case in Belgium

546
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,239
Speaker 1: that has that apply. It's a brand new law. By

547
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: the way, this was two years ago that this law

548
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: was put forth, and that's for a major case with

549
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: twenty eight victims. It's a crazy, crazy case and I'm

550
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: sure i'll tell the story of someday. They canceled that

551
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: thirty year automatic expiry just for that case. And the

552
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: law that was written says that you know, it has

553
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: to be a major publis almost like a terrorism attack

554
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: type of thing, to delete the statute of limitations. But

555
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: he thinks that this case, given that there are five

556
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: victims and that it was basically a terror campaign in

557
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: months that it could qualify and that they could keep

558
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: this case going.

559
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: Wow. I appreciate you educating on that. That's exciting. You

560
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: obviously want any of these stories to be solved, you know,

561
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 2: you want that happy ending, which would be justice in

562
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: enclosure right for these families, and so that's assuring to

563
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: you know, very reassuring to hear that. And just two

564
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: years ago too, that's crazy, like, yeah, you were probably

565
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: already researching this of that time, weren't you.

566
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was. And that other case about which

567
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: it was for the reason for the law being voted,

568
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: that's the case I covered in French. Oh wow, So

569
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: I know that case really really well. It's a crazy,

570
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: crazy case. So when that happened and I started working

571
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: this case, I thought maybe this would actually apply. And

572
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: the lawyer now says that he thinks it would. So

573
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: that's a that's an interesting thing.

574
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: That's exciting. To sort of put a bow on things

575
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: here without any major spoilers, what can listeners expect out

576
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: of season two of The Monstra.

577
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: This is a big story that there's a lot of

578
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: elements that you have to hear about in this story

579
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: because we're talking about five victims, right, and so to

580
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: even begin to get into the active investigation part of

581
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: the story, you have to understand the story, right, and

582
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: so that's what the first part of this is. So

583
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: you're going to have really, you know, five to six

584
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: episodes where we're really going to just tell this story,

585
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: but in a way that's interesting, right, that really brings

586
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: it to life, and you understand what happened to you know,

587
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: what time, who was where, where did this person disappear from,

588
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: how long were they met, all the details that go

589
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: into an investigation, but really just telling the story, and

590
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: then you know, we're kind of start opening some cracks

591
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: into new things that we're finding. We get into something

592
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: very very interesting with well two suspects to be honest,

593
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: but then really one who is just so interesting as

594
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: a suspect. And that's the part where not many people

595
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: in Belgium even know about any of this. And we

596
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: went all the way and got everything that we could find,

597
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: and we found a lot, and we found information that

598
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: is unknown to the public still right now. It won't

599
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: be known until all the episodes get published and are

600
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: understood by the people who know the case, right, And

601
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: then there are also some interesting twists, like there's a

602
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: potential tie with a murderer from New York who killed

603
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: a woman in the Bronx and believe it or not,

604
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: that person, after he killed and chopped up a woman,

605
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: moved to Belgium and was here during these murders. And

606
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: that's a crazy story. And I did a great interview

607
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: with a fantastic journalist from the New York Times who

608
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: actually covered that international sort of cold case that turned

609
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: into a conviction of this crazy there's a crazy story

610
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: within the story around that and some great sort of

611
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: great discovery of this great New York Times journalists who

612
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: covered that. So you do get to travel a little

613
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: bit in this thing as well.

614
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: That's a lot. You gave me a lot to chew

615
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: on there. So you got boots on the ground, you

616
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: got big reveals, you got twist and turns, progress being

617
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: made on the case, possible connections to other cases, other

618
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: killers out there. Am I missing anything?

619
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: I thank you? That was a great summary. I love it. Okay, okay, so.

620
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: A little bit of everything. I expect a little bit

621
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: of everything. No, I can't wait to finish it. Matt,

622
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 2: thanks again for the time for doing this. It's been

623
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: great getting to know you better, I get to know

624
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: more about La Monstra, and yeah, I can't wait to

625
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: binge the rest of this new season, season two. And

626
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: if you haven't already listened to season one of La Monstra,

627
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: I also urge you to go and do that. So

628
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 2: just search LOA Monstra wherever you get your podcasts. That's

629
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: l E Space, m O N S t R Ela

630
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 2: Monstra excellent.

631
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Dennis.

632
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and hey, while you're there, make sure you subscribe

633
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: and leave a review for Matt too, to just let

634
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: him know you enjoyed the show and how great of

635
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: a job he's doing. I think you'll really enjoy it.

636
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure nice to meet a fan of

637
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: my work as well, and I'm a fan of yours too.

638
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 2: Keep it up and best of luck on your future endeavors.

639
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: That was what I was going to say, is keep

640
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: up your good work, Dennis, because I need a new

641
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: season sometime soon.

642
00:34:29,120 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: Here, I got my head down, I'm working. I'm working