1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: Mom never told you a prodiction of Iheartradias how stuff works. 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: So this is actually something I've been thinking about a 4 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: lot lately, um, especially around this time of year. And 5 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: I've been through a lot of pretty serious life changes lately, 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: and it's kindness. And I've learned that kindness is one 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 1: of my most valued traits. I that's I think that's 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: why I connects so strongly to the media that I do. 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: And it's really funny because right after my dad died, Um, 10 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: I for some reason, I wanted to watch How to 11 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: Train Your Dragon the whole series, like over and over, 12 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: and in the second one spoiler alert, the dad dies 13 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: and people were shot. They were like, why why sing this? 14 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: And what made me start crying? Not that is that 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: I was like, look how kind hiccup? I started crying 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: and it's just stuck with me and and Lives Out 17 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: is a movie that I love right now. And one 18 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: of the things I love about that movie, that entire 19 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: movie is a murder mystery about kindness or kindness is 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: at the heart of it. And so, um, it's just 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: as we close out this decade, I move into a 22 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: new decade thinking about the value of kindness. And you 23 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,839 Speaker 1: never know how much impact being kind to someone else 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: has because it really so many things people do. I'm 25 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: sure they have no idea how much it meant to me, 26 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: but it did so And the words of Michelle McNamara, 27 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: the world is chaos to be kind and that just 28 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: really is something that I'm gonna I'm gonna stick to 29 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: you and I I appreciate so many of you listeners 30 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: because you are so kind when you contact us, and 31 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: it really really really means so much. So please enjoy 32 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: this classic episode on why are humans helpful? Welcome to 33 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never told You from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, 34 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, 35 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: and I'm about to start things off with a statement 36 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: that might um cause outrage from our more science minded 37 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: and very knowledgeable listeners. I'm nervous out there, yeah, because 38 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,399 Speaker 1: we've got we have a number of whip smart scientists 39 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: who listen in. So I'm just gonna go ahead and 40 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: say this from my layman's perspective. Okay, so scientists out there, 41 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: keep in mind, I'm just trying to cleverly possibly te 42 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: up this episode about the evolution of cooperation. So what 43 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 1: I was going to say was that, really, if we 44 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: are thinking of this podcast universe that we magically live in, 45 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: and in evolutionary terms, you and I really shouldn't be 46 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: sitting at the same table, Caroline. Why because we should 47 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: probably have separate podcasts, you know, because of survival of 48 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: the fittest and everything. Like. Humans are naturally selfish, right, 49 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: inherently selfish creatures. So I would really want to start 50 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: the Kristen Show so I could battle it out on 51 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: the charts and the Caroline our Christians limiting me, I 52 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: really would talk for an hour. Maybe we should do 53 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: it um. But as a matter of fact, it sort 54 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: of does make sense that we are sitting across the 55 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: table talking, cooperating, we're helping each other get ahead together, 56 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: we are getting are there than possibly we would separately. 57 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: Although you know, the theory behind cooperation and defecting, not 58 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: helping other people, being selfish and acting in one's own 59 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: self interest is that you know, as a defector, theoretically 60 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: you would you would get ahead because you're not You're 61 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: not helping your neighbor, so you're not doling out anything 62 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: you're not incurring any costs. But then your neighbor doesn't 63 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: get anything from you, doesn't get any help, so she 64 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: won't get ahead. So but if you both help each other, 65 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: then you both get ahead. And since we like talking 66 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: about success stories and this is just maybe the grand 67 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: success story of the human species is perhaps cooperation, because 68 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: scientists would refer to us as super cooperators, because without cooperation, 69 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: we wouldn't even be able to sit here, because we 70 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't have this technology, we wouldn't have language, thumbs thumbs 71 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: sort of bat things around caps. I guess um. But 72 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: the whole idea behind us is that cooperation is a 73 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: driving force in evolution. And Martin Noack, who is from 74 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: Harvard University, in two thousand six wrote that the emergence 75 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: of genomes, sells, multicellular organisms, social insects, and human society 76 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:24,119 Speaker 1: as a whole are all based on cooperation, right, which 77 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: is counterintuitive because I made the reference to evolution earlier, 78 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: because the theory is based on competition in the idea 79 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: of rewarding selfish behavior. But when you actually look at 80 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: biological organization, you find so much cooperation and self sacrifice 81 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: in a lot of instances yeah, and and I know 82 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: you might be thinking this sounds way more science e 83 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: than we normally get. But don't work. Don't worry, we'll 84 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: get to the gender stuff. We are reliable, We are 85 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: cooperating in this. We bring it around a gender every time, right. 86 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: But yeah, cooperation essentially means that selfish replicators, you know, 87 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: they're looking out for themselves, they forego some of their 88 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: reproductive potential to help one another. So, like I said earlier, 89 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: everybody gets ahead, everybody wins, and no whak you mentioned 90 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: from Harvard University UM establish a theory of five mechanisms 91 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: for the evolution of cooperation how all of this works. 92 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: And the first one makes a lot of sense, and 93 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: that is kin selection. We want to perpetuate our our genes, 94 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: and so naturally we are more willing to cooperate with 95 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: people that we are related to. And the closer they're 96 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: related to us than the more likely we are to 97 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: lend a helping hand. Right, And that's the whole theory 98 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: behind that. As we share more genes obviously with people 99 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: were more closely related to. So there's the whole saying 100 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: of I will jump in the river to save two 101 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: brothers or eight cousins. That's sort of the idea behind 102 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: that UM. There's also network reciprocity, which is formed in 103 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: a mixed population of cooperators and defectors. UH. Cooperators are 104 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: busy helping each other and forming network clusters, while defects 105 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: are getting left out because they're not benefiting their neighbors 106 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: at all. And then those clusters of cooperators end up 107 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: out competing the defectors because, like we said, they're pushing 108 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: each other ahead to succeed. And then we have group 109 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: selection UM, which maintains that competition is not only between 110 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: individuals but also between groups, and a group of cooperators 111 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: will not so surprisingly grow faster than a group of 112 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: defectors because they can actually work together. And this is 113 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: something that will also come up in later research on 114 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: like teamwork and sports. UM that it's also come up 115 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: and one thing that you guys might have heard of 116 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: possibly is the prisoner's dilemma, which is a test and 117 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: activity that's been reproduced in several studies that's known as 118 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: a direct reciprocity. Basically, if I cooperate now, you might 119 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: cooperate later. Tip for tat you owe me, I owe 120 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: you UM and This relies basically on repeated encounters between 121 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: the same two individuals, and it's basically, to quote the 122 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: study like a barter economy based on the immediate exchange 123 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: of goods. So first, let's outline quickly what the prisoners 124 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: the limit is, just because this comes up so often 125 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: in this line of scientific literature. Yeah, so, if Kristin 126 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: and I are both suspects who have been arrested on 127 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: suspicion of a crime, uh, they separate us and you know, 128 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: good cup, bad cop, and they're just like beating us 129 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: down mentally, trying to get one of us to confess 130 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: or both. The theory goes and tests have shown that 131 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: when one of the suspects confesses, So like let's say 132 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: Kristin confesses to the crime like she did it or 133 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: we did it or I did it or whatever. She 134 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 1: she confesses but I don't, then she's the one who's cooperating. 135 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: She receives preferential treatment, favorable treatment, so she might not 136 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: go to prison, or might not go to prison for 137 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: as long because she cooperated. When both of us confess, 138 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: the outcome is worse because it's like, well, you've lost 139 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: your leverage. And even though we both cooperated. We're both 140 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: like super guilty. We do not get favorable treatment either 141 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: one of us when both of us keep silent though 142 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: we're cooperating with each other, we haven't offered up any information. 143 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: Neither one of us goes to prison and gets shanked 144 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: or shived or half shoved, half or shoved. Uh. And 145 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: so the outcome is better for both of us. We 146 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: might both end up going to prison for a little while, 147 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: but we didn't confess we cooperated with each other. So 148 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: the outcome ends up although it's not the best for 149 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: one of us, it's the better for both of us. Yeah. 150 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: So it's a roll of the dice and this prisoner 151 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: prisoner's dilemma game that these researchers will often play with 152 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: participants to see how selfish we are, whether or not 153 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: we will go for the more cooperative option and just 154 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: hope for the best of The other person in the 155 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: game is also thinking cooperatively. Um. But it's it's interesting 156 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: how to see how those kinds of games shake out. 157 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: And again this will come up when we talk more 158 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: about gender. And let's briefly touch on that fifth mechanism, 159 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 1: which is indirect reciprocity, which is fueled by reputation. It's 160 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: essentially the idea of doing something in order to burnish 161 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: your reputation in case of a rainy day kind of. Yeah, Basically, 162 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: you help somebody, and you don't necessarily expect immediate help, 163 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: but you do expect other people to take note, possibly 164 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: inform others, and based on your now sterling reputation, you 165 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: expect down the line to get some perks. And the 166 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: study shows that this is a very human attribute, this 167 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: idea of indirect reciprocity, because we have to have the 168 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: ability to actually, like remember, keep track of our social network, 169 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: remember who's done what, who's benefited home, and kind of 170 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: keep talli's of you know, who's who's helping each other. Yeah, 171 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: and that whole idea of the social network dynamics UM 172 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: has received some more insight from a two thousand eleven 173 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: study out of Harvard University, which found that UM, when 174 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: it comes to cooperation and helpfulness within the social networks, 175 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: everything is constant and changing in response to those networks, 176 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: the people in those networks behaviors. Yeah, when we have 177 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: when you have a dynamic social network, basically you get 178 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: to choose the people that you want to keep hanging 179 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: out with the people who give you the greatest benefits, 180 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: who you like the best. Um, you end up with 181 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: big groups of cooperators because nobody wants to hang out 182 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: with the selfish guy. Yeah, and the sweet little moral 183 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: of the scientific story is that nice guys can finish 184 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: first because you want you're a coo cooperator exactly, exactly, 185 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: and uh yeah, So these dynamic groups where you can 186 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: pick and choose who you hang out with, end up 187 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: having very high level levels of cooperation because you're rewarded 188 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: for cooperating by getting to hang out with the cool kids. 189 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: If you're the selfish guy who's not cooperating, then you 190 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: typically end up getting shunned. And so you learn from 191 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: that mistake. You learned from the little sting of being shunned, 192 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: So then you try to cooperate, whether it's heartfelt or not. 193 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: You want to be part of the group. So it 194 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: keeps us in It keeps us in check as well 195 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: our behaviors, your reputation and social networks and basically thinking 196 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: that people are watching you. Now, there's something that comes 197 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: up a lot in this podcast that's going to put 198 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: a wrinkle in our cooperative or non cooperative behavior, and 199 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: that would be hormones. Yes, there is known evidence that 200 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: the hormone oxytocin, the cuddly feely hormone released in the 201 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: female brain, especially during an orgasm that promotes bonding. A 202 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: little boost of oxytocin will make us more cooperative. Studies 203 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: have shown that a boost of oxytocin in our brain 204 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: will make us more cooperative, which makes sense, you know, 205 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: if you think about all of the different traits that 206 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: are associated with oxytocin. Now, on the flip side of that, 207 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: a study published in January of two thousand twelve from 208 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:06,119 Speaker 1: the University College London's Welcome Trust Center for neuro Imaging 209 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: found that testosterone. Yep, testosterone makes us less cooperative. Yeah, 210 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: it kind of blinds you to other people's point of 211 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: view and makes you overvalue your own opinions at the 212 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: expense of cooperating. And so they did the study. They 213 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: had seventeen pairs of female volunteers working together, and they 214 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: did they had a little asterisk and they said that, 215 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, we did seventeen pairs of female volunteers because 216 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: testosterone levels naturally low, and so they could have some 217 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: of the women take a pill or whatever. To raise 218 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: their testosterone levels, whereas if they did that in men, 219 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: when you raise an already high testosterone level at backfires 220 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: and make some I don't know, weepy or something. Um. 221 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: But so they have these pairs of female volunteers working together, 222 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: and when given a placebo, the pairs cooperated well, performed 223 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: their assigned task better. But when they were given a 224 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: testosterone supplement, the benefit of cooperation was reduced. Individuals acted 225 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: ego centrically, and they tended to decide in favor of 226 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: their own ideas over those of their partner. So watch 227 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: out for that. Uh yeah. Dr Nick Right, who was 228 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: the lead researcher, said, too much cooperation and we may 229 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: never have our way. But if we're too self motivated, 230 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,479 Speaker 1: we are likely to ignore people who have real insights. 231 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: So there is a balance to cooperation. And I mean, 232 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: if you're constantly rolling over for someone else, well, good grief, 233 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: don't do that. But then it can't be too hardheaded either. Well, 234 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: so does this mean that men and women are inherently 235 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: different as far as how they cooperate? Is there a 236 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: huge difference there? Well, I think that's the question we're 237 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: going to answer next in this podcast because you would 238 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: assume based on that study that we decided about testosterone, 239 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: we know that men tend to have higher levels of 240 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: testosterone running through their bloodstream. Yeah, so you might think, well, sure, 241 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: guys aren't going to be as cooperative as women and 242 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: women are just you know, sweet little pancakes of helpfulness. 243 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: I don't know why pancakes, but you know, fluffy, they're 244 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: fluffy and you can put butter and um. But yeah, 245 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: I keep going. And there is some support for something 246 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: called the male warrior hypothesis. Yeah, and that's basically the 247 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: men's social behavior and psychology are more strongly intergroup driven 248 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: than women's. And there's all this stuff about like you know, 249 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: evolutionary theory and men hunting the willed beast and everything 250 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: and taking it home to their women. But basically, researchers 251 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: from the universities of Kent in England and Tilburg I 252 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: believe in the Netherlands in two thousand and seven found 253 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: that men contributed more to their group if the group 254 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: was competing against other groups. So that's that that can 255 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: lead us later into a bunch of like sports theory 256 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: and and team theory and stuff like that. But they 257 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: found that female cooperation was pretty much unaffected by intergroup competition. Yeah, 258 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: and there was a September two to leven study published 259 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: by the American Psychological Association that looked at fifty years 260 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: of research because there are a ton of studies examining 261 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: gender and helpfulness and cooperation, and they found that men 262 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: are more cooperative kind of like you just said, particularly 263 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: when the interests of an individual are pitted against those 264 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: of a group. Um, and men cooperate with other men, 265 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: this was interesting, better than women cooperate with other women. 266 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: We should really not be getting alonger right now. Competition 267 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: and we're two women, um, and women will cooperate more 268 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: than men in mixed sex interactions. So basically, everybody cooperates 269 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: with men better. It sounds That's what it sounds like. 270 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: And you know I touched on evolutionary theory a second ago. 271 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: But uh, if they basically say that if everyone acted 272 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: according to self interest in hunting and warfare back in 273 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: the day with the wild a beast and the mastodons, uh, 274 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: no food would be provided and all wars would be 275 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: lost because everybody would be looking out for themselves. Like 276 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: I don't want to get hurt. I'm just gonna kill 277 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: this world debes for my woman and myself, not for 278 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: the rest of you guys. And so basically, men had 279 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: to develop strategies to cooperate with each other. Meanwhile, the 280 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: theory behind women's interaction and cooperation, according to the studies 281 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: lead author, is that ancestral women migrated between groups you know, 282 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: as wives are wont to do and quote, So the 283 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: dynamics among women would have been rife with sexual competition. Uh, 284 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: stereotypes about cattie women goes all the way back back 285 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: to evolutionary times. But before I get too bummed out 286 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: about that, doctor Art Markman, who's the executive editor of 287 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: Cognitive Science UM, looked at some meta analysis on all this, 288 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: because yes, we see some gender differences here and there, 289 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: depending on group versus individual versus who's sitting across the 290 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: table from you versus whether or not you're being an 291 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: environment that's being mono turn and he found that despite stereotypes, 292 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: the gender differences when it comes to cooperation is very small. 293 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: It's almost statistically insignificant. He says, Wow, it does affect 294 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: how how likely people are to cooperate to some degree, 295 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: it is not the most important factor. Yeah, it's definitely 296 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: fostering temmunity and trust that helps people cooperate, feel comfortable 297 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,719 Speaker 1: working together, rather than focusing on a gender balance. So 298 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: I mean you shouldn't try to get you know, a 299 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: room full of men, or make sure you have an 300 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: exact balance of men and women necessarily, just make sure 301 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: that the people you hire you know you're fostering that 302 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: teammunity feeling. Although it is interesting to see what does 303 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: happen when uh say, we're in the room our studio 304 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: by ourselves having to cooperate away from the prying eyes 305 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: of all of our listeners. But if are you know, 306 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 1: when we could we could stop and you know, not 307 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: be so cooperative with each other. But chances are when 308 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: you're being watched, are monitored by some kind of an 309 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: audience then and your reputation is kind of more on 310 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: the line. It does change how men and women will interact. 311 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: It does. And this is a study from you see 312 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara, and they had men and women playing a 313 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: game in front of an audience of the same or 314 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: opposite sex, either in their home room or in an 315 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: away room. And so the theory is that while both 316 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: males and females wish to gain approval of their in 317 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: group members. In other words, the people in their home room. 318 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: The actions that are socially desirable differ across gender, So 319 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: males wish to signal that they're formidable, while females wish 320 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: to signal that their cooperative. So it has a lot 321 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: to do not so much with your gender a little bit. 322 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: Basically we cooperate the same amount, but we cooperate kind 323 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: of differently. So men cooperate less quote unquote at home 324 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: in their home room than do females, and cooperate more 325 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: went away, and they actually cooperate most when in front 326 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: of a single sex audience. Um. Well, I thought it 327 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: was interesting that this uh that that study from UC 328 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara also supports um A date a little bit 329 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: dated study in the Social Psychology Quarterly that found that 330 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: again there was a minor gender difference in cooperation, but 331 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: no matter what side, women came out on whether or 332 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: not they're being more cooperative, cooperative, excuse me, or defectors. 333 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: We tend to assume that we have the moral high ground. Yeah, 334 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: well yeah, we think we're more cooperative and altruistic and 335 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: all that stuff, And that that actually reminded me of 336 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: our Women's Intuition podcast, like, if you think in your 337 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: brain that you're supposed to be a certain way, you 338 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,239 Speaker 1: just assume that your actions are more that way than 339 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: somebody else's. Kind of yeah. Well, and also we tend 340 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: to not get as even this is all an experimental settings, 341 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: but not to get as emotionally worked up about having 342 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: to hash something out with someone else. Often though, the 343 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: men were more likely to leave, um one of these 344 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: prisoner's dilemma esque games, very agitated and upset, whereas we 345 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: were like, it's fine. I mean I was being as 346 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: altruistic as I could possibly be, so fluffy pan kicks 347 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:34,239 Speaker 1: of cooperation for everyone. Um. Now, we said we'd get 348 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: into a little bit of sports theory, and by that 349 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: I mean just a little itty bitty bit. Um. But 350 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: a two thousand four study in the Journal of Personality 351 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: and Social Psychology had a behavioral task assigned to these 352 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 1: people that involved shooting a basketball, and in this intergroup competition, 353 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: which is a combination of cooperation and competition, it led 354 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: to higher levels of intrinsic motivation, which we already kind 355 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: of talked about, where men were more likely to cooperate 356 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: if they were going up against a group. So basically 357 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: intergroup competition has positive effects on enjoyment of the sport, 358 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: and so they recommend The study recommends structuring recreational activities 359 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: to include both competition and cooperation because that can facilitate 360 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: high levels of both intrinsic motivation and performance. I don't 361 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: think it supplies to me because I hate competition or whatever, 362 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: but that's probably why. I mean, we join up with 363 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: REX sports teams because it is fun. I mean, the 364 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: competition level is there enough that it's stimulating, but then 365 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: you also get the whole cooperative benefits. You get to bond, 366 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: you get to do the all hands in high five 367 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: cheer thing, and pour big tubs of sports strengths on people. Yeah, 368 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: I've never done that. I should do that sometimes, short 369 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: circuit our equipment. Um And this whole competitive structure versus 370 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: cooperative structure translates not so surprisingly into the workplace, and 371 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: it is interesting see how they compare in terms of outcome, 372 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: because a study published in two thousand three in the 373 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: Academy of Management Journal found that competitive structures enhance speed 374 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: and a cooperative one enhances accuracy. Yeah, and it makes 375 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: sense if you think about it because if you're competing. Again, 376 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: if if if Kristen and I had different podcasts and 377 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 1: we're recording at the same time, and that's somehow how 378 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: the universe work. That we had to see who could 379 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: record the best, the best podcast the fastest, we we 380 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 1: would probably be focused, yeah, more on who would do 381 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: it the fastest, because so you would have the Caroline hour, 382 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: like you said, maybe I'd have the Conger minute minute. 383 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: Just pump those podcasts out. Yeah, but um, the cooperative 384 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: environment is really good for teams with extroverted and agreeable members. Uh. 385 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: Teams low on these attributes function better under a competitive structure, 386 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting. So I guess if you're 387 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: extroverted friendly, you're more likely to want to talk about 388 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: stuff with your coworkers to reach a solution. So I 389 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: wonder if someone who swings a little more introverted like myself, 390 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: does that mean see, I don't know, I was I 391 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: was thinking about that too, because you don't typically see 392 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: introverted people like being really cut throat in the workplace, 393 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: but they do work more independently, and so yeah, that 394 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: that whole competitive system is really good for people who 395 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: do work independently because it emphasizes performance differences, and it 396 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: rewards individuals with high performance. So it can actually the 397 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: good on the good the good side, it can promote efficiency. 398 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: On the bad side, it can lead individuals to place 399 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: their goals higher than those of the organization. Yeah, and 400 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: then there's the whole challenge with a cooperative system that 401 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: works well, like you said, with people who are extroverted 402 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: and agreeable, because if you put them in more of 403 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: a competitive reward structure, at least according to this study, 404 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: they made twice as many mistakes. So they're rushing around 405 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: me and like, but I want to talk to you 406 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: about it. So essentially we need some kind of balance 407 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: between it all. You know, we can't be too competitive, 408 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: we can't be too cooperative. We gotta get things done. Essentially, 409 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: we all need listen, everybody, just be perfect, no pressure, 410 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: no pressure at all, you know, keep those oxy oxytocin 411 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: levels high but not too high. Yeah, not too high. 412 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: We don't want to be hugging all the time. Yeah. 413 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: But then with testosterone, you know, yeah, low but not 414 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: too low. So I do want to ask our listeners, 415 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: you know, do they consider themselves to be more cooperators 416 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: or quote unquote defectors. Are you more likely to feel 417 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: like you're getting ahead if you're working closely with other people? 418 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: Do you like helping others? Do you ever feel like 419 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: you're helping others at the expense of your own success? 420 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: And was anyone surprised by the lack of gender difference 421 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: but in cooperation? Yeah, because a lot of people stereotypically, 422 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: you know, anecdotally, people think that women are inherently more cooperative. 423 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: Not necessarily true, Yeah, but that might be used as 424 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: misused as an adjective for subservient. I digress. Send us 425 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: an email. Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot com is where 426 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: you can send them. Okay, this is uh an email 427 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: from Claire about our Kathy episode. She says, I'm a 428 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: fourteen year old enthusiast of comic books and Liz Lemon 429 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: Woo go Claire, and read plenty of Garfield and Cathy 430 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: comics in my childhood. I wasn't aware of the feminist 431 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: backlash against Kathy until your podcast, and frankly, I disagree 432 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: with it. Not only do I think she shouldn't be 433 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: held to a standard that other comics are not held to, 434 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: but if being a prominent woman cartoonist means that she 435 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: has to uphold some responsibility of progressing women and having 436 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,719 Speaker 1: some sort of big, meaningful character arc when Garfield has 437 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: only gotten fatter and John Lonelier are the two genders 438 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: in the media truly equal. I appreciate feminism and think 439 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: anyone's involvement in it is a fantastic thing to do. 440 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: But to assign someone a role like that for something 441 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: as to be blunt mediocre as a newspaper comic strip, 442 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: I think is over the top. Well, I have one 443 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: here from Madison, and it is in response to our 444 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: episode about erotica and which we mentioned uh b D 445 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: s M themes in erotic literature, and she writes, I'm 446 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: a confident woman who incorporates b D s M into 447 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: my sex life. I don't think safe, sane, consensual, kinky 448 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: sex among adults is damaging to women. Men can be 449 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: subs to. If getting tied up and stuff is really 450 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: hot to you, then find someone else who's into it. 451 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: I appreciate you guys acknowledge a difference between actual violence 452 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: and consensual violent play of b D s M. The 453 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: key word here is that b D s M is 454 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: play dan savage love whom describes sex role play as 455 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: cops and robbers for adults with your pants off and 456 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: orgasm so true. One of my problems with fifty shades 457 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: is that it paints a picture that only screwed up, 458 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: broken people participate in b d usim screwed up broken 459 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: people participate in vanilla relationships to emotional and physical abuse 460 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: is never okay, especially in the kink community. The last 461 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: thing that we need on the news is evil. Kinky 462 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: people do something sex crazed and evil. It's a great headline. 463 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: Most kinksters I know are extremely polite and will only 464 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: whip you if you ask nicely while you're sober. The 465 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: bottom really controls what's happening to them, since nothing else 466 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: happens without their permission. And I, on a side note, 467 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: am blushing. So thank you to Madison for that insight 468 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 1: on the b D s M community, and to everyone 469 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: who has written in. We have gotten a lot of 470 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: email about our erotica episode, so much in fact, I 471 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: haven't even gotten around to rootin now, so that and 472 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: more for the next episode. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot 473 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: com is where you can send your letters. You can 474 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: also find us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. 475 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: At mom's Stuff podcast, and you can head over to 476 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: our website during the week to see what we're up 477 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: to you. It's how stuff works dot com. For more 478 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff 479 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: works dot com.