1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: M HM. This is mesters in Business with Very Results 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: on Bluebird Radio here this weekend. On the podcast, Jonathan 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: Levine of Bain Capital really a fascinating career, just absolutely intriguing. 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: How he was able to convert his experiences doing M 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: and A at Drexel and then being a consultant of 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: Mackenzie uh to not just joining a private equity firm, 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: but really founding and creating the entire capital credit at Bain. 8 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: Really an interesting um history. He is extremely knowledgeable about 9 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: all sorts of different aspects of private equity and aware, 10 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: very aware of how there is a spill over from 11 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: the equity markets as well as the impact of alternatives 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: like bonds and and how that's given rise to different 13 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: types of private equity. We we talked about everything from 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: operating on during the pandemic to what is going to 15 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: happen as rates rise, what that might mean for private 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: equity and for credit spreads. I found this conversation to 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: be absolutely fascinating and I think you will also with 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: no further ado. My interview with Jonathan Levine, co managing 19 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: partner at Bain Capital. This is Masters in Business with 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: Very Results on Bluebird Radio. My extra special guest this 21 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: week is Jonathan Levine. He is the managing partner at 22 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: Bain Capital, which manages about a hundred and fifty five 23 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: billion dollars. He is also the chief investment officer at 24 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: Bain Capital, credit about fifty eight billion dollars in assets. 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: He is the co chair of the board of Trustees 26 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: of Columbia University, where he got his undergraduate degree before 27 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: going on to earn an m b A. At Harvard. 28 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: Jonathan Levine, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you very much. I'm 29 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: glad to be here. So so, given your background, you 30 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: study economics undergrad, you get an m b A. How 31 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: did you find your way to Wall Street? What what 32 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: did you do? Uh between your undergraduate and your m 33 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: b A. Interestingly enough, I actually didn't study economics as 34 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: an undergrad. I studied political science and English literature, and 35 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: I took one economics course. I think that that's why 36 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: I'm so good at always reducing things to basic supply 37 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: and demand, because that's how far I got. And I 38 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 1: was into Columbia Law School and I was planning on attending, 39 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: and a friend of mine said, Uh, you know, these 40 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,399 Speaker 1: investment banks now have analyst programs and they claim they're 41 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: just looking for smart people and you don't need to 42 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: know anything. And I thought I was smart, and I 43 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 1: still wasn't sure. I said, well, I'm going to law 44 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: school and I'll never forget. You said to me, well, 45 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: there's free food, and I said, well, free food, I'll 46 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: definitely show up. And I literally showed up, interviewed with 47 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: a few places, was fortunate enough to get some offers, 48 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: and I decided to go to Drexel Burnham and I 49 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: worked at Drexel Burnham for the UH just short of 50 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: two years between business business School and college because obviously 51 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: Drexel didn't make it the full two years. But it 52 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: was an amazing experience before I went to business school, 53 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: really really intriguing. I never knew that uh NBA programs 54 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: came with free food. Otherwise I might not have gone 55 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: to law school had I known that. That's a that's 56 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: really interesting. So so you go from Drexel UH, which 57 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: you're primarily known as an M and A shop, to 58 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: Mackenzie the big consultancy. What was that transition, like, how 59 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: did you find yourself operating when you were no longer 60 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: you know what was essentially was one of the hottest 61 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: and in a shops on the street. So when I 62 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: went to business school, a couple of things happened. One is, 63 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: because I didn't have you know, traditional undergraduate economics or 64 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: finance or accounting, I really only knew about finance because 65 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: that's where I wound up, and so I learned so 66 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: much more about the strategic aspects of business. Second of all, 67 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: I met my wife the third day of business school 68 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: and we discussed where we wanted to be, and we 69 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: wanted to be in Boston, and at the time, there 70 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: weren't a lot of finance jobs in Boston, and I 71 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: had the good fortune of meeting the people from the 72 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: mckensey Boston office, which was quite small at the time. 73 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: I was able to go there at the summer. Really 74 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: found the work interesting, and probably even more so, the 75 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: people were truly extraordinary people, great teachers, really you know, 76 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: intellectually curious. And the second year of business school, because 77 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: my clients were local, I was able to actually work 78 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: part time in that office. The second year of business 79 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: school and I had accepted the offer, I went back there. 80 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: My wife actually was working at a different consulting firm. 81 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: She was at BCG, but there was part of me 82 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: that always thought I would get back to some form 83 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: of finance or investing and uh staying capital in early 84 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: was raising its first institutional fund historically. We were less 85 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: than ten years old and historically had basically had high 86 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: net worth UM funds, and we were jumping from a 87 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty million dollars UH fund to a three 88 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: hundred million dollar fund, which at the time seemed enormous. 89 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: And I got a call from somebody I knew here 90 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: and she said, we're trying to quote beef up a 91 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: little bit. I think the firm had fewer than twenty investors, 92 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: and we want somebody with consulting and banking experience. Are 93 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: you interested in talking to it? And I literally came 94 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: over on a Friday met virtually everybody came back the 95 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: following Monday. Mitt Romney interviewed me and made me an offer, 96 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: and I tell people I accepted it because it felt right. Huh, 97 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: really really interesting. So So let's talk a little bit 98 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: about UM about that experience. Well, is it just that simple? 99 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: There wasn't anything else that that made you say, yes, 100 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: I want to move to away from consultancy and towards 101 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: private equity. It just was a gut Hey, this feels right. 102 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: I think it did in my heart. I think there 103 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: were two things. I think it played better to my skill, 104 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: a certain entrepreneurial bent, uh the ability to combine what 105 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: I had learned at Wreckvil and as a consultant, and 106 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: that is the heritage of the firm. Obviously, the the 107 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: firm started as a spinoff from the consulting firm Bain 108 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 1: and Company. It's so the approach to investing made sense 109 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: to me. It made sense to me on a fundamental 110 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: basis how you think about looking at companies. And it 111 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: was also differentiated because at the time nobody was approaching 112 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: investing that way. And while the firm was quite small, 113 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: there was an energy and aspiration and the hunger that 114 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: really really appealed to me. And I said, I think 115 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: this group is going to go somewhere and I can 116 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: help make that happen. And one thing that I'm really 117 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: really proud of is that even today, with a hundred 118 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: and fifty billion dollars under management and a hundred and 119 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: fifty partners in twenty one offices throughout the globe, I'm 120 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: still proud we have that hunger and we have that 121 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: int intellectual curiosity in the aspiration to do more and 122 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: do better. So five years later you found Sancity Advisors, 123 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: which eventually morphed into being Capital Credit. Tell us about 124 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: what you were thinking, UH, creating a new credit division, 125 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: and especially in light of you know, late nineties, the 126 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: equity markets were they were on fire. Why start a 127 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: credit focused investment farm? And the firm believed that what 128 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: we did, our approach to investing was applicable to multiple 129 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: asset classes, and we made the strategic decision in the 130 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: mid nineties to expand both across asset classes and geographies, 131 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: not all at once. So in the mid nineties we 132 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: founded a public equity business and I founded the credit business. 133 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: And the general belief was that we had been successful 134 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: in investing in the equity of leverage companies, and therefore 135 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: you would think that we would be able to apply 136 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: to skill to the depth of LeVert companies. My experience 137 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: from Drectful and the fact that I had worked on 138 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of our financings UH previously at ben Capital 139 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: made me a logical choice to to start that business. 140 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: At the time, there were really no other A few 141 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: of our peers or competitors were doing the same thing. 142 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: But we were one of the first to do this, 143 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: and although the equity markets were hot at the time, 144 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: we invest for very long periods of time and therefore 145 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: it wasn't like we saw a two year window or 146 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: at any time one asset was better than the other. 147 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: We thought that we had a sustainable advantage in this space. 148 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: The market was changing profoundly at the time. The concept 149 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: of a syndicated bank loan was very very new. Clos 150 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: weren't even around yet. We did one of the first 151 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: clos and and uh we decided that institutionally it was 152 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: worth doing that. Said, it was so unusual for a 153 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: private equity firm to have, particularly a debt firm, and 154 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: we didn't want people to misread when we were buying 155 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: the debt of of l b O s sponsored by 156 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: other sponsors. We put a different name on it. It's 157 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: always been part of bing capital um, but Thankity is 158 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: a lighthouse in Massachusetts, and we thought stability it was 159 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: a good a good, a good symbol, and we kept 160 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: that name for a while because we weren't sure how 161 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: people would think about buying their debt. Ultimately, obviously, firms 162 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: like ours having debt affiliates became quite mainstream, and UH 163 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: in about seven years ago, we changed the name UH 164 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: to ban Capital Credit. Our public equity business had the 165 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: name Brooks. We changed the name of that to Bank 166 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: Capital Public Equity. And you know, I joked that that 167 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: is the official story, the unofficial story for why they 168 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: picked me, as I think Mitt thought that I was 169 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: senior enough to be credible and young enough to be 170 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: expendable if it didn't work. But fortunately we never had 171 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: to test that hypothesis. That's very funny, So so let's 172 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: let's stay with that. Given what subsequently happens a few 173 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: years later with the dot com implosion in the market crash, 174 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: how did that spill over to the credit markets. It's interesting. 175 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: So I still remember the first bond trade I did. 176 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: I bought Riverwood bonds at about cents on the dollar 177 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 1: and they went up to about a hundred and five, 178 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 1: and I said, Wow, this is going to be an 179 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: easy business. There were several things I did not realize 180 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: at the time. One, I knew nothing about trader trading. 181 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: And the first thing we did in our first year 182 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: is higher a great trader, a guy named Jamie Kellogg, 183 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: who was with us for twenty years and two. People 184 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: forget that. In August Russia defaulted and that put a 185 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: shock wave through the bond markets. So we were already 186 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: dealing with turbulence when the dot com bubble hit um 187 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: and then shortly after the dot com bubble, obviously we 188 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: had nine eleven. And what we learned learned through that 189 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: period of time is actually one of the important things 190 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: in credit is you get paid back at the end 191 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: if you made good selections. Nobody likes price volatility, but 192 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: I highlight that all those things I just described had 193 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: no impact on how much pizza people were buying. And 194 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: therefore we lent money to a pizza company and those 195 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: bombs and loans went up and down, But at the 196 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: end of the day, that company went public and we 197 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: got paid back. And realizing too to filter out the 198 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: signal versus the noise, or filter out the noise versus 199 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: the signal is a really really important part of credit investing. 200 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: When we do distress investing, that's more of a hybrid 201 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: and you think more about enterprise value and what does 202 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: it take to get paid back. But in the part 203 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: of our business that's a lending business, and back then 204 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: we had mostly just the lending business. It was all 205 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: about did we picked good credits, were they paying their interests? 206 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: And would they ultimately be capable of paying back when 207 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: they were supposed to. So, so let's talk a little 208 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: bit about your role at bin UH and what you do, 209 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: starting with what what does the co managing partner do? 210 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: Is that like a CEO or a CEO role? How 211 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: do you how do you define that? The co managing 212 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: partner role is the equivalent of being the co CEO. 213 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: But our firm is partnership and we chose not to 214 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: put the title CEO on the leaders of the firm 215 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: because it is a partnership. We are lead partners. We 216 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: do not run the firm top down. We are an 217 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: old fashioned partnership where the voices of all the partners matter. 218 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: Everybody is a leader and everybody needs to contribute. That said, 219 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: it falls on myself and my co managing partner, John Connaughton, 220 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: to help drive strategy at the firm, to help make 221 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: sure that our expansion is being done in a in 222 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: a thoughtful way. There's um standards across the firm and 223 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: as a real organizing force among our partners as we 224 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: deliver great results for our investors and drive the business forward. 225 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: So it's really a reflection. Sorry, it's good. It's really 226 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: a reflection of our culture. So let's talk a little 227 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: bit about how that culture manifests itself in your investment strategy. 228 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: And this is a loose quote from you. Your investment 229 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: strategy is described as thoughtful, not aggressive, not cautious. Explain 230 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: that a little bit, and and how does that reflect 231 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: the culture of the farm. I use a driving analogy 232 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: a lot to try to explain what we mean about this. 233 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: You can cause as many accidents going fifteen miles an 234 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: hour in the right lane on a highway as you 235 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: can driving a hundred and twenty five in the left lane. 236 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: You have to know when to put on the gas, 237 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: when to slow down, and you drive differently on different 238 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: stretches of highways at different times during the day, and 239 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: that applies to investing. You have to know that sometimes 240 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: you have a view of the market that may be 241 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: different than others. You have confidence to that view is 242 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: well considered and analyzed, and therefore you might choose to 243 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: put on a little more risk. You may choose to 244 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: lean in um when everybody else is running away. There 245 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: are also other times when we may decide, you know 246 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: what we need time diversity or industry diversity, or we're 247 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: not entirely certain what uh what the vision ahead is, 248 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: and we will slow down a little bit. And I 249 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: think what we do really well philosophically is we understand 250 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: the difference between pricing risk and understanding uncertainty. There's a 251 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: famous economists, um Then Knight, who who wrote back in 252 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: the twenties and thirties about understanding that trying to quantify 253 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: the difference between risk and uncertainty. And you can price 254 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: and quantify risk, you have to learn to live and 255 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: mitigate uncertainty, and you need to understand that difference between 256 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: the two. Really really interesting, let's let's stick with that. 257 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: Given how fast the recession was in equity markets plunged 258 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: and then came back very strongly, Um, did you see 259 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: something similar in the credit markets? How did they behave 260 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: over that time? So the credit markets were as volatiled 261 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: for a while as the equity markets, although I only 262 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: remind people volatility implies going up and down, and they 263 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: were going straight now, um. And it's at that time 264 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: that as a leader of firm and the managing directors 265 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: who had seen different cycles before had to make sure 266 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: that the team focused on first principles, what would happen 267 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: over the long run, would these companies be able to 268 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: pay us back? How much cash could they burn? How 269 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: long could this last? And we were able to find 270 00:17:55,040 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: opportunities and had near record deployment during that period of time. 271 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: Because the recovery was industry specific, so not everything came 272 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: back at the same time. As you know, indussease, stock market, induscries, 273 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: credit indusseries lie because their averages um. Secondly, there were 274 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: different needs by geography and those those needs continue today. 275 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: Where in Europe in particular, banks still had to shed 276 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: lots and lots of bad assets and it became increasingly 277 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: important to clean up their balance sheets. UH In the 278 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: US there were a lot of industries, airlines, restaurants that 279 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: did not recover the same way. We obviously made a 280 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: very high profile airline investment with Virgin Australia UH in Australia, 281 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: which we bought in partnership with our private equity team 282 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: out of out of bankruptcy. And while there was a recovery, 283 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: there was some sense that people did not fully believe 284 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: it was over and therefore there was a reticence to 285 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: deploy a new capital. We saw periods of time where 286 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: the safer assets were way over priced at the expense 287 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: of riskier assets. And if you got the default picture correct, 288 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: which fortunately we did, and the team did a great 289 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: job thinking about how much money companies would need and 290 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: how they would access cash if they needed it, and 291 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: we UM we said we could take a little more risk. 292 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: We are not going to just buy double bees and 293 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: ride the interest rate decline waves, and that was was 294 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: the right decision. And then lastly, events like oh a like, 295 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: like the dot com boom, they leave some scars, and 296 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: we saw a lot of companies that had just gotten 297 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: through that wanted to shore up their capital structures and said, 298 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: you know what, having too much senior bank at with 299 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: covenants or not enough equity, or perhaps they wanted preferred 300 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: to doc But we spent a lot of time working 301 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: with companies all over the globe on very structured sources 302 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: of debton capital to help them make sure that they 303 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: could ride through a second wave a third wave. Really 304 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: really intriguing. UM, did you see as much distressed debt 305 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: opportunities that you thought initially when when the pandemic really 306 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: took root and we started to see all sorts of 307 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: economic dislocations or was that recovery just shockingly quick? So 308 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: we clearly didn't see as much distressed as we thought 309 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: we were going to see because we thought everything was 310 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: going to be distressed. I mean, when you put yourself 311 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: back in you know, March of nobody had any idea 312 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: what was going on. I remember being on debate where 313 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: we were wondering whether we would have our offices closed 314 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: until Memorial Day or Labor Day, and we were right, 315 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: we just had the wrong years. Uh. And but that said, 316 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: there was a lot of uh. There was a lot 317 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: of distressed opportunities and rescue opportunities that available that we 318 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: could do. The footprint that we operate with the twenty 319 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: one offices throughout the globe also made a big difference 320 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: because being proximate to so many different geographies and being 321 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: able to participate in um so many different ways. We 322 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: were able to do business locally as different geographies were 323 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: opening and closing, and we could visit real estate sites 324 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: some places in in Ireland or in Greece, or in 325 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: uh In in Spain because we had a presence there. 326 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: When we were looking at Virgin Australia. We have two 327 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: offices in Australia, so we were able to UM do 328 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: analysis US and have a view that others weren't able 329 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: to have because you couldn't get to Australia. So we 330 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: really felt the value of our platform during that period 331 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: of time. And and let's stick with the idea of value. 332 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: A lot of people of the equity markets as let's 333 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: call them fully valued and or or more. Uh, does 334 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: any of that spill over to the credit markets? What 335 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: do you see in terms of private credit investments? Are 336 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: are things available at the same sorts of valuations that 337 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: you like to see? I would say that what we're 338 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: seeing is once again more bespoke opportunities. On the one hand, 339 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: in our special situations business that you know, there's no 340 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: cookie cutter solutions out there, and access to capital um 341 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: is still in some segments still pretty tight. I think 342 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: that there are some people who own a lot against 343 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: enterprise value, and we will do that a little, but 344 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: we're not comfortable relying on getting paid back. We're okay 345 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: taking returns from the equity markets, but we need to 346 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: believe we're going to get paid back on debt instruments. 347 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: In traditional debt ways UH preferred stock and structured equity 348 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: and things like that are are a different story. And 349 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: that's obviously where equity valuations make a difference. On the 350 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: lending side of our business. In our private credit business 351 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: and our cello business and our bank loan and bond business, 352 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: default rates are incredibly low, and the economic outlook vise 353 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: are the default vise are. The company's ability to access 354 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: traditional capital markets is pretty good. And when you make 355 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: a credit investment, when you make a loan, you look 356 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: at the spread you're getting and then you always net 357 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: out what you presume you're gonna lose um in default 358 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: over a period of of the next two or three years. 359 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: And I think not enough people look at loss adjusted 360 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: spread that in bad markets, people probably underestimate what the 361 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: losses would be, and in good markets they probably overestimate 362 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: what they're going to lose because of defaults. And just 363 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: like during we correctly thought that the whole world wasn't 364 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: done a default and at a three percent four percent 365 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: default rate, wasn't the end of the world. The default 366 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: rate year to date is less than one percent, so 367 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,239 Speaker 1: it is well below average. And when default rates are 368 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: below average, you would expect the spreads that people are 369 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,239 Speaker 1: lending money at to be below average, which is what 370 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: we're seeing. So so let me flip that question over 371 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: a little bit. A lot of what has made private 372 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: credits so attractive, at least for the past decade anyway, 373 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: has been that interest rates have really been so low 374 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 1: and the yields from fixed income has in less attractive. 375 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: What does that mean in terms of rising rates these days? 376 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: If we continue to see um Man yields tick up, 377 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: if the FED is early in their rate hiking cycle, 378 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: and we could see you know, four or five six 379 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: rate increases over the next two years, what does that 380 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: do to your expectations for the private credit sector. Our 381 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: expectations actually go up in that scenario for two reasons. 382 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: One is, most of the way we loan in private 383 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: credit is through floating rate instruments, and therefore, as rates 384 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: go up UH, the amount of interest we received goes up. 385 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: There's very little fixed rate in UH in the private 386 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: credit space. Now. Secondly, you have to step back and 387 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: ask yourself why are rates going up? And they're going up, yes, 388 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: because there's some inflation, but also because the economy is 389 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: growing and the economy is doing well. And the FAD 390 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: needs to tap the brakes a little bit, and that 391 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: would suggest that there will be fewer defaults, so it 392 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: would be a good market to lend private credit. Let's 393 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about Baine because they really are 394 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: kind of an interesting um private equity shop. Uh, they 395 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: have employees across the US and around the world. How 396 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: did they manage this during the lockdown? Were you able 397 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: to deal with this or did you go into the 398 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: pandemic semi virtual anyway? So, because we have such a 399 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: big global footprint and such a diversity of businesses from 400 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: life sciences to obviously private equity and credit and check 401 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: ropes and venture capital and uh, you know many others, 402 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: we were used to working across our platform and how 403 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: do we activate our platform when we're looking at various situations. Now, 404 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: we obviously had never encountered anything like we saw in March, 405 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: but we had the technology and play in huge credit 406 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: to our technology team that everything worked. We decided early 407 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: on that we were going to make sure everybody from 408 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: the most junior analysts to the most senior people in 409 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: the firm had any technology they needed at their homes, 410 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: if they needed routers, if they needed their internets be 411 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: sped up, new laptops, screens. A lot of firms spent 412 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: a lot of time figuring out what they were going 413 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: to do, and we made the concerted effort to enable 414 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: people as fast as possible. In Boston, we even had 415 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: a group going around with literally a pickup truck and 416 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: they moved our trade stations, our trader stations and reset 417 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: them up in their homes. Within the first week of 418 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: the pandemic. We never missed in an hour. But when 419 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: I stepped back and I reflect on that period of 420 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: time and what we've learned over the last two years, 421 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: it really has brought out the entrepreneurial spirit that defines us, 422 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: and it has brought us closer together. People hop on 423 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: a zoom with colleagues in Mumbai with more ease and 424 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: more comfort today than they used to, you know, go 425 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: from the thirty seventh floor to the thirty eight floor 426 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: to ask somebody a question. It's just been amazing to 427 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: see the resourcefulness that individual people have brought to to 428 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: to this situation, and the aggregation of that and the 429 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: sharing of learnings has made a huge difference in our 430 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: ability to be effective. We've hired hundreds of people during 431 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: the pandemic, We've continued to increase our assets under management. 432 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: We have found great investment opportunities across all of our 433 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: business units. And you know, while I never would like 434 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: to do it again, I am just incredibly proud of 435 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: what the team has accomplished and to be part of it. 436 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: And I know that may sound corny, but it truly 437 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: has been the finest hour for our people, and the 438 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: compassion and resourcefulness people have shown has been amazing. Sure, 439 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: it's a baptism of fire. It's similar to what UM 440 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: people when the Armed services go through, where everybody has 441 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: to pull together and and rise to the challenge of 442 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: a of a common enemy. I could certainly understand that. 443 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about your overseas business. You 444 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: you guys have fairly substantial investments both in Europe and 445 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: and UH Asia and the Pacific. Tell us a little 446 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: bit about what the challenges are of UH private investments 447 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: outside of the US and does your thought process differ 448 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: when you're considering those sorts of opportunities. So we view 449 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: ourselves as a global firm. One of the things culturally 450 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: is we don't view London or Hong Kong or Melbourne 451 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: as overseas because to them at home, and in fact, 452 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: about half our partners are outside the United States now. 453 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: And so we have learned a lot from our global 454 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: expansion over the last twenty two years, and one is 455 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: that each market there are some core principles of what 456 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: makes a good company what makes a bad company. That 457 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: does translate. Our investment style does translate. But there are 458 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: different norms, different ways people do business. There are different laws. 459 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,239 Speaker 1: Lending is different from uh from geography to geography, and 460 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: you want to be sensitive to that, which is why 461 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: all of our offices are predomina at Lee people who 462 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: are from the local market. We didn't send a bunch 463 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: of people over to London and say Hi, I'm from 464 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: Boston and New York, You're happy to meet me. We 465 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: actually built a local team that um does business. It 466 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: has participated in the market, but early on worked very 467 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: closely with people who had moved over from Boston or 468 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,959 Speaker 1: they spent time in Boston, so that the culture of 469 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: the firm could grow um as it um as as 470 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: we moved across the globe. And I think that's really 471 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: really important. Is the biggest challenge you have in these 472 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: types of situations when you are growing globally. You've been 473 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: very successful in its single geography is just trying to 474 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: replicate it without being sensitive to local norms and local networks. 475 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: And what you need to do is find a way 476 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: to maintain the core firm culture and the platform advantage 477 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: that you bring your your reason for being, but make 478 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: sure that you find ways to incorporate people with different 479 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: experiences and people who know different markets better than we do. Uh. 480 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: Let's talk about diversity a little bit. Finance has been 481 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: criticized for for lacking in diversity. We we tend to 482 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: be a bit of a white male industry. There are 483 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: signs that's improving, but finance still lags a lot of 484 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: other industries. UH, tell us a little bit about what 485 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: pain is doing to address that issue. This is a 486 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: huge issue in finance, in in a lot of industries 487 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: across the US, and we recognize that we have to 488 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: apply the esteem creativity we do to our investments in 489 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: to our portfolio companies too, um to bringing a more 490 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: diverse group of people in to the industry, obviously underrepresented groups, 491 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: but also diversity of thought, diversity of geography, diversity of 492 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:15,479 Speaker 1: socioeconomic backgrounds. And we also recognize that we can't solve 493 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: it ourselves, and we have made sure to consult with 494 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: expertise and partner with organizations like m LT and s CEO, 495 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: and we have found that technology has really helped us 496 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: reach a broader group of people. When you don't hire 497 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people in any given year, we have 498 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: fifteen hundred people UM, and you know, we may hire 499 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: twenty associates and analysts, maybe forty associates and analysts in 500 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: the United States a year. That's not a huge amount, 501 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: and therefore it was really easy to just lapse into 502 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: keep going to the same schools you're going to, and 503 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: we recognize that that wasn't going to solve the problem. 504 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: So we are you zoom to host informational forum UH two, 505 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: teach people about what investing is, who we are UM, 506 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: to coach people on the interview process, whether the interview 507 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: with us or somebody else, and really start engaging with 508 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: larger groups UM across the country. And we think it's 509 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: it's incumbent upon everybody in our industry to make the 510 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: industry more accessible and not just think about what I 511 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: want ten more recruits. And just the other day we 512 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: did a a informational session on Zoom and had two 513 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: hundred or three hundred students from colleges across the United 514 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: States learning about what we do, learning about the case 515 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: method of interviewing, and we're going to see how that works. 516 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: And you just have to keep experimenting, leaning in, and 517 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: you know, be willing to take some risk, because doing 518 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: the same thing over and over again and expecting a 519 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: different outcome is definition of insanity. Really really interesting. I 520 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:09,720 Speaker 1: saw a really wonderful quote of yours before the pandemic began. 521 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: It was it was around February four. Quote. I really 522 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: think nobody could possibly understand the impact. And until we 523 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: see how it plays out, how the quarantine works out, 524 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: and whether or not we can find some sort of 525 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: a vaccine, We're going to study this very closely and 526 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: look at it very carefully. Unquote that that was a 527 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: solid month and change before the lockdowns began, And it 528 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: very much tells as to your approach, uh, not too aggressive, 529 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: not too cautious, but really looking at things closely. Uh, 530 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: tell us a bill a little bit about what you 531 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: were thinking about a month before things really got bad 532 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: here in the States. Investing is not the prediction business. 533 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: It's really about adapting. And I use a framework a 534 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: lot with the team, all the Udha loop, which actually 535 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: comes from the military, and how they would teach fighter 536 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: pilots to orient themselves in a dog fight at time 537 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: of high uncertainty, and it tells you that you need 538 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: to orient yourself to where you are, you need to 539 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 1: observe what's going on, then you need to decide, and 540 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: then you need to act. And it's a loop because 541 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: you do it over and over and over again. And 542 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: at that time, it was clear that we were in 543 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: a situation where we were not being asked to price risk. 544 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: We were being asked to price uncertainty. And we were 545 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: humble enough to see that nobody had exactly gotten this 546 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: right yet, and sensitive enough to recognize that there was 547 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: a human tole that this was taking both in human life, 548 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: and people were starting to die as well as fear. 549 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: And I thought at the time, and in my partner 550 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: Um and I talked about it that boy, we don't 551 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: really know what's going on. And sometimes people think you 552 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: should zig or you should dad, but really what you 553 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: should do when you don't know what's going on to 554 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: stand still and watch. And that's what we did. We 555 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: didn't panic, We didn't try to guess one way or 556 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: the other. We set out a framework for how we 557 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: were going to look at this, how we were going 558 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: to think about the safety of our team as well 559 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: as the um security of our portfolio companies. And we're 560 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: very fortunate at Bank Capital because we have a life 561 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: sciences group with real doctors and people with pH d 562 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: s who played a huge role at that time in 563 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: trying to help us understand how this could play out 564 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: and also what it took to develop a vaccine. And 565 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: I had never put much thought into how developing vaccines 566 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: work and how they worked and who would take them 567 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: um and that was incredibly helpful. And uh, that part 568 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: of the firm continues to be incredibly helpful today to 569 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: this point, to this day. So let's talk a little 570 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: bit about some of the philanthropic work you do. You 571 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: were a major supporter of of City Year, Lift, you Aspire, 572 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: and you were one of the earliest donors to Brian 573 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: Stevenson's Equal Justice Initiative. Tell us a little bit about 574 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: what the connection is between all of these different clauses. 575 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,800 Speaker 1: My wife and I both went to public high schools 576 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: and had the ability to obtain incredible education, both undergrad 577 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: and graduate, And at no point in my life when 578 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: I was walking through the halls of my public high 579 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: school in downtown Providence, did I ever question that there 580 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: might be a ceiling on what I could do and 581 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: what I could accomplish. And that's just not the case today. 582 00:38:53,920 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: And we recognize that we have been incredibly, incredibly lucky. 583 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: There's a lot of people with the same skills I 584 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: have that just never had the opportunities that I have had, 585 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: and we focus a lot of our philanthropy on what 586 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: we call leveling the playing field. So City Year was 587 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: the UM, the organization that was used as the models 588 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 1: for AmeriCorps, which is the National service organization UM. City 589 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: Year when we started volunteering with City Year, they had 590 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: come to my Business school section. A friend of mine 591 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: had helped them with their business plan, and they had 592 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: a vision of putting near peer mentors and public schools 593 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: across the United States and UM and using them to 594 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: help UH students see their potential and help prevent the 595 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,919 Speaker 1: help prevent students from dropping out. We didn't have much 596 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: money back then, but we gave them eighteen dollars, which 597 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 1: was which is high in the Jewish faith, which stands 598 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 1: for lock in life, and for some weird reason, I 599 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: kept the check. I still have that check and have 600 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 1: been involved with City Or for more than thirty years. 601 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: I chaired the board, I was on the I was 602 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: on the board for fifteen years, and I've watched that 603 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: organization grow to three thousand young core members volunteering in 604 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: schools in thirty cities in the United States, London, UM, 605 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: Northern England and South Africa, and Johannesburg. And I've seen 606 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: the power of UH commitment and idealism to help solve 607 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: problems that the problems we have of opportunity aren't intractable 608 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: UM And along that theme, we were introduced to smaller 609 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: organizations at the time. You Aspire helps students find financial aid. 610 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: The financial aid process in the United States is unbelievably complicated, 611 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: and it started by helping Boston Public school kids just 612 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: learn how to apply for financial aid. It's one of 613 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: the number one reasons that students don't apply to college 614 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 1: is they just assume it's not accessible to them. People 615 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: don't realize that even understanding financial aid is super complicated. 616 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: One of the things the CEO did when I first 617 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: met him. Is gave me three financial aid letters and 618 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: asked me to read them and tell him what I 619 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: thought the best package was. And it was really hard, 620 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: and he said, now, imagine your kid in South Boston 621 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 1: whose parents didn't go to college and this arrives in 622 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: the mail. How do we help explain that to them? 623 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: And they now work UM once again using technology, with 624 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of kids across the country. UH and 625 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:03,280 Speaker 1: LIFT Communities. UH was founded by a woman named Kirsten Lodel, 626 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: who I met through an organization called New Profit here 627 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: in Boston which does venture philanthropy, and Kirsten started LIFT 628 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: for junior year at Yale and with the belief that 629 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: people need a helping hand to it's not always people 630 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: need money and money will will solve a problem. And effectively, 631 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: what LIFT does is their life coaches. They help people budget, 632 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: they help with financial literacy, they help people learn how 633 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: to take care of their health. And it's almost like 634 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: life coaches for people who otherwise don't have it, how 635 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: to do a resume, and it it follows the great line. 636 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: You know, give a person a fish, you feed them 637 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: for a day, teach them how to fish, and you 638 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 1: feed them for a lifetime and LIFT has done just 639 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 1: amazing work. They very much focus on underrepresented communities. It's 640 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: generally mother and UM, they have had just amazing, amazing results. UM. 641 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: It's now run by a woman named Michelle Roan Collins. 642 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: And then lastly, the several years ago, just when Just 643 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: Mercy came out, the founder or co founder of City Or, 644 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: Michael Brown, gave me Brian's book for Hanaka. He always 645 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 1: sends me a book every year, and he had gone 646 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: to law school with Brian. I had met Brian once 647 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: briefly at a City Year event. And I don't know 648 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: if you've read Just Mercy, but you're reading it, and 649 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,280 Speaker 1: it's about how Brian Uh. One of his first major 650 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: cases he got somebody off of death Row who was 651 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: basically framed and it was completely and totally um racially 652 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: motivated and uh discriminatory, and he did a There's a 653 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: section in there about children who have been sentenced to 654 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,439 Speaker 1: life in jail and the horrible trauma that they've go through. 655 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: And I read this and I, you know, UM humble 656 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 1: enough to tell you I was shocked. I thought I 657 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: was pretty aware of what was going on. And this 658 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: is years and years and years before uh, George Floyd, 659 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 1: and I was like, how can this be happening in America? 660 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: And I actually called Michael and said, can you introduce 661 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: me to Brian Jennie and I would love to meet him? 662 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 1: And um, we got to meet him. We've gotten to 663 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: be friendly with him. UM. We gave him one of 664 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,880 Speaker 1: his largest early gifts. He had been around for a while, 665 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 1: but we gave him a substantial gift. And you know, 666 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 1: I thought it was so important that people understand the 667 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: top both the type of work that he is doing, 668 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: but the need to do that type of work, which 669 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: is just incredible that that's still necessary in this country. Um. 670 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: He and I actually did a joint to parents on 671 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: ntr UM six years ago to talk about it, um 672 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: and talk about how somebody like me had come across 673 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: the work he's doing down in Alabama and how I 674 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: just thought it was so important as an American to 675 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:15,439 Speaker 1: do whatever I could to help not just rectify these 676 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 1: types of injustices, but actually make sure they stop happening. 677 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: And that his book Just Mercy eventually became a film 678 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 1: with Michael Jordan and Jamie Fox. So so let's let's 679 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: stick with that concept of social and economic mobility. Why 680 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: do you think that there is a ceiling today in 681 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: the United States that didn't exist decades ago? And what 682 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: can we do about improving economic mobility? You know, if 683 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:50,479 Speaker 1: I had all the answers, uh, I hope it would 684 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 1: be solved, because other people smarter than I am would 685 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: have figured it out. But I do think it starts 686 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: with the educational system and making sure that public school 687 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,919 Speaker 1: was in the United States aren't just good, they're great. Um. 688 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 1: The number of folks I went to public school with 689 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: who now send their children to private school is staggering 690 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: to me. And UM, So it starts with making sure 691 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: that education in the United States works. Um. Secondly, I 692 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,919 Speaker 1: think we've all got to recognize the problem. We've got 693 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: to recognize, um uh, that people with different lived experiences 694 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,719 Speaker 1: do not have the same access to starting businesses, the 695 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,799 Speaker 1: same access to UM capital, the same access to all 696 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: the resources that you might see you know more obviously 697 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: in a traditional sense in Silicon Valley as an institution, 698 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: we have committed ourselves to try to help improve that, 699 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: um UH in in business equity in the City of Boston, 700 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: UM and many of us support other organizations across the country, 701 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,720 Speaker 1: which are all trying to to level the playing field, 702 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: as I discussed, But the first thing is we've got 703 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: to be aware of the disparity. You can't fix it 704 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,760 Speaker 1: until you name it and you own it, and then 705 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,720 Speaker 1: people have got to recognize that there's work to do. 706 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: Quite quite interesting, you end up in a similar place 707 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 1: to Joel Greenblatt, who also points to the education system 708 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: as the key to improving UH economic mobility. I think 709 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: the book is something common sense, the guide, Investor's Guide 710 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: to a quality opportunity in growth. You guys are very similar. 711 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: Let me ask you about a different project that you 712 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,839 Speaker 1: were involved in. You helped to fund the teen uh 713 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: ten part documentary series by Ken Burns and Lynn Novak 714 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,840 Speaker 1: The Vietnam War. Tell us how we're going to find 715 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 1: the next great filmmaker like Ken Burns. So while Ken's 716 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: film came out in seventeen, I had met him about 717 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: seven years earlier. One thing as I've become friendly with 718 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 1: Ken over the years, and my my wife and I've 719 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 1: become really good friends with him, is he starts thinking 720 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:18,439 Speaker 1: about his projects a decade out. He literally can tell 721 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,719 Speaker 1: you what he's going to do in and um when 722 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: he approached me on the Vietnam War. It was very 723 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: important to him that this have funding from people who 724 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: would be associated with being Democrats and Republicans to immediately 725 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,719 Speaker 1: take away any possibility people would think that this had 726 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: a political agenda. He also, very purposely in the film 727 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: does not interview John McCain or John Kerry because a 728 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:53,440 Speaker 1: lot of people reduce the um, you know, some of 729 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,719 Speaker 1: the Vietnam stories to two very famous people, both of 730 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: whom are heroes, UM who served in What he wanted 731 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,360 Speaker 1: to do is tell the story of you know, a 732 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: whole mix of Americans and what that story was. And 733 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: that is the beauty of Ken's work and Um, as 734 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 1: we've gotten to know each other, we helped fund a film. 735 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: He did a short film on the Holocaust um and 736 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: he's actually got a multi part series on the Holocaust 737 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:28,720 Speaker 1: coming coming out um UH. Later this year, we um 738 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: talked about the importance of who is the next Ken Burns? 739 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:36,320 Speaker 1: Burns and he came up with this idea and asked 740 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: my wife Jeanie and I if we would join him 741 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,480 Speaker 1: in funding a prize given by the Library of Congress 742 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:48,600 Speaker 1: to emerging filmmakers. Because he remembered that when he started. 743 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: The toughest thing he had was getting what's called the 744 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,360 Speaker 1: completion grant. He could do all the raw filming, but 745 00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,320 Speaker 1: really pulling it together in something that was production worthy. 746 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,480 Speaker 1: But so we agreed to sponsor and we do to 747 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:06,720 Speaker 1: this day a prize through the Library of Congress which 748 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,880 Speaker 1: provides completion grants not just to the winner of the 749 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,279 Speaker 1: of of the Content of the of the Award, but 750 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: also to a couple of other runner ups. They are 751 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:20,440 Speaker 1: different size grants so that the next can Burns can 752 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,640 Speaker 1: can have an opportunity. UM over the last couple of 753 00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 1: years can recognize that UM their diversity and documentary filmmakers, 754 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,200 Speaker 1: just like we talked about incindance, UM wasn't what it 755 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,760 Speaker 1: should be. And we came together with him and also 756 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,040 Speaker 1: fund a fellowship and mentorship program that he started to 757 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:52,360 Speaker 1: help UM UM mentor up and coming filmmakers from underrepresented groups. 758 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 1: And UM he's just an amazing person. Uh when you 759 00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:01,520 Speaker 1: look at polls of people still trust his films and 760 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 1: trust his storytelling and know that it's up the middle 761 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:09,800 Speaker 1: and in this time when people do not trust media 762 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: for whatever reasons and people polarized to their networks, to 763 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,680 Speaker 1: know that there's people like Ken, and hopefully a generation 764 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 1: behind Ken, who are presenting history in a really approachable 765 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: and important way. I think is incredibly important to strengthening 766 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,680 Speaker 1: some of the social fabric we've talked about. And one 767 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,520 Speaker 1: of the amazing things about the Vietnam War, where you 768 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,320 Speaker 1: would have thought everything that had been done and written 769 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,920 Speaker 1: in all that, is that was the first film I 770 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,360 Speaker 1: had ever seen that actually interviewed North Vietnamese soldiers and 771 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:49,000 Speaker 1: interviewed North Vietnamese citizens, and we forget that there were 772 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,080 Speaker 1: two sides in that war, both of which suffered incredible 773 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:58,239 Speaker 1: human loss, and learning the lessons of Vietnam applies to 774 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:03,239 Speaker 1: so many things we're looking at today. Um and UM. 775 00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,440 Speaker 1: I think that's true of almost alocains film. You mentioned 776 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 1: he's working on a Holocaust film. Towards the end of 777 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,920 Speaker 1: his presidency, UH Barack Obama appointed you a member of 778 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:20,279 Speaker 1: the US Holocaust Memorial Museum Council. Tell us a little 779 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,960 Speaker 1: bit about that experience. It was an absolute honor to serve. 780 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:30,160 Speaker 1: It's a cause that really important to me and my wife. 781 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,279 Speaker 1: The Holocaust is not just a moment in history. It's 782 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,600 Speaker 1: not just uh A, you know, a a time of 783 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 1: a group was anti Semitic. It shows you that when 784 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,640 Speaker 1: you forget the lessons of history, those atrocities can be 785 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,200 Speaker 1: repeated again and again and again. But there's also a 786 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 1: lesson of the Holocaust, which Ken is gonna focus on 787 00:52:55,600 --> 00:53:00,200 Speaker 1: in his film about what people didn't do and Um 788 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:05,520 Speaker 1: there's a whole section that was UM was opened while 789 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,759 Speaker 1: I was on the UM the Memorial Board, which is 790 00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,960 Speaker 1: about America in the Holocaust and what we did or 791 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:17,800 Speaker 1: more appropriately, didn't do during the thirties and how easy 792 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,920 Speaker 1: it was to look away, say it was far away, 793 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of lessons to be learned 794 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:29,280 Speaker 1: to see what happens when people, UM are bystanders and 795 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,160 Speaker 1: I think it's not their problem. And when you look 796 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,839 Speaker 1: at Charlotte's Felle, you know, I'm not sure people understood 797 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:41,840 Speaker 1: the symbolism of people with tiki torches chanting people Jews 798 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,360 Speaker 1: will not replace us, and that that comes from Nazi Germany. 799 00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 1: And UM. You know, there's an old adage that you know, 800 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,040 Speaker 1: when you forget the history, you're doomed to repeat it. 801 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,319 Speaker 1: And there's just so many lessons to be learned, and 802 00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,880 Speaker 1: the work, the educational work is more than a museum. 803 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:07,120 Speaker 1: The educational work that UM the Holocaust UM Memorial Museum 804 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 1: Council does in the in the county, in the museum 805 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:13,840 Speaker 1: does UM not just on Holocaust, on the Holocaust, but 806 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,680 Speaker 1: on genocide more broadly. I think it's really really important, 807 00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:22,960 Speaker 1: and I am incredibly proud to have served UM and 808 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:28,800 Speaker 1: UH continue to support support them because it's so important 809 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,000 Speaker 1: that we learned the lessons and that we do not 810 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:35,360 Speaker 1: repeat them. Really really fascinating stuff. Let me throw you 811 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,480 Speaker 1: a little bit of a curveball here and talk about 812 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,520 Speaker 1: the Boston Celtics. You've been a member of that ownership 813 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 1: group for a while. Tell us a little bit about 814 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 1: that experience, how that came about, and what's it like 815 00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:53,200 Speaker 1: being a Celtics owner. So with somebody who grew up 816 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,040 Speaker 1: in the Boston area, I grew up in Providence, Rhode Island, 817 00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,080 Speaker 1: UH and went to games with my dad since I 818 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,520 Speaker 1: was little. UM. The opportunity to be part of the 819 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:10,960 Speaker 1: investor group was, you know, so exciting. UM. The Steve Paluco, 820 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 1: one of my partners, was friendly with Wick Rossback and 821 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,160 Speaker 1: UH Bob Epstein, and the three of them put together 822 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,440 Speaker 1: the group that that bought it a little more than 823 00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,200 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago. Um, they had a vision of local 824 00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:27,640 Speaker 1: business leaders, people who cared about philanthropy. UM, I cared 825 00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 1: about you know what the team meant to the city 826 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,000 Speaker 1: of Boston, and UM, you know it's been great. Uh 827 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,920 Speaker 1: we you know. I was on the board for the 828 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,279 Speaker 1: worst season we ever had and on the board for 829 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,680 Speaker 1: a championship. So it's been UM, it's been amazing. They 830 00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:48,560 Speaker 1: started out this season looking pretty strong. They have a 831 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,920 Speaker 1: better than record. What what do you think they have 832 00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,440 Speaker 1: a shot at winning the East this year? I always 833 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,959 Speaker 1: believe that we not only have a shot, but will 834 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:03,200 Speaker 1: win until um, events or otherwise proved me wrong. I'm 835 00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,680 Speaker 1: a true believer and I think that the talent we 836 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 1: have on this team is capable of winning any any 837 00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,440 Speaker 1: day and if they get it all working, the beauty 838 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,800 Speaker 1: of basketball is the playoffs are like a second season. Um. 839 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,280 Speaker 1: And uh, as long as we make it into the playoffs, 840 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,319 Speaker 1: I think we can do anything. So I know I 841 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,560 Speaker 1: only have you for a limited amount of time. Let 842 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,439 Speaker 1: me jump to my favorite questions that I ask all 843 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,280 Speaker 1: of my guests, starting with tell us what you're streaming 844 00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,480 Speaker 1: these days? Give us your favorite Netflix or Amazon Prime. 845 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:38,960 Speaker 1: What's been keeping you entertained over the past two pandemic years. 846 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:44,240 Speaker 1: So besides ted Lasso, the morning show Shifts Creek, which 847 00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:48,319 Speaker 1: I think everyone UM loves and and and people have 848 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:52,480 Speaker 1: really really taken to. I I think ted Lasso may 849 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,920 Speaker 1: go Down is one of the great philosophers of our time. 850 00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:01,080 Speaker 1: My wife and I actually, particularly with you know, all 851 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:05,160 Speaker 1: the difficult events that have been going on in the world, 852 00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,800 Speaker 1: and you can focus so much on what's going wrong. 853 00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:13,239 Speaker 1: We actually enjoy periodically just streaming comedy concerts, and Netflix 854 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,480 Speaker 1: and HBO have great a great array of comedy concerts 855 00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,800 Speaker 1: where you can just laugh, because I do think we 856 00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,080 Speaker 1: need to all laugh a little bit. Um. I Also, 857 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:28,680 Speaker 1: as we've talked about, I very much enjoyed documentaries, and 858 00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:34,240 Speaker 1: not just uh Ken Burns stuff, but some more offbeat 859 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:39,919 Speaker 1: stuff I really enjoyed on UM HBO. UH they had 860 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:44,840 Speaker 1: a documentary called mcmillions which was riveting, I believe it 861 00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,720 Speaker 1: or not, which basically examined how the McDonald's Monopoly game 862 00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,480 Speaker 1: UH in the mid nineties and late nineties was rigged 863 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,440 Speaker 1: and nobody realized it for a while, and that somebody 864 00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,760 Speaker 1: had rigged the game, even Monopoly, I mean even McDonald's 865 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,200 Speaker 1: didn't know, and I'm not doing it justice, but it's 866 00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 1: fascinating and UM and I UH also very much enjoyed 867 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:14,480 Speaker 1: on Netflix the the documentary about the uh theest of 868 00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:19,560 Speaker 1: art from the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum here in Boston. UM. 869 00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,720 Speaker 1: It was the largest art heist in history and remains 870 00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,640 Speaker 1: unsolved decades later, and it's called I think it's called 871 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,240 Speaker 1: this is a heist or this is a robbery. My 872 00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,800 Speaker 1: wife and I saw that that was really quite fascinating, 873 00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,120 Speaker 1: and I mean, the Isabel Stewart Gardner Museum is walking 874 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,480 Speaker 1: distance from our office, and it was just fascinating to 875 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,360 Speaker 1: watch and so much UM, I didn't I didn't know. 876 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,560 Speaker 1: And then I'm a huge sports fan and I think 877 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:52,320 Speaker 1: the ESPN thirty for thirties are just absolutely fantastic and 878 00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:57,160 Speaker 1: you can find all sorts of stuff that that that 879 00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: can keep your interest. UH. I even watched to the 880 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:05,160 Speaker 1: hour long documentary on the Tuck Rule, which was that 881 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 1: first UH that playoff game that made Tom Brady's career 882 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,480 Speaker 1: where there was a debate whether or not he fumbled 883 00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: the ball in the snow and UH and UH there 884 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,720 Speaker 1: was a little known rule in the NFL which they 885 00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,040 Speaker 1: took away the next year called the tuck rule, and 886 00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,720 Speaker 1: he had not tucked the ball back in and uh 887 00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,120 Speaker 1: and he um, so it was ruled an incomplete pass. 888 00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,720 Speaker 1: And because of that, the Patriots beat the Raiders and 889 00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:34,120 Speaker 1: went on to win their first Super Bowl. And I 890 00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,760 Speaker 1: know that sounds crazy, but I watched it for an 891 00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,480 Speaker 1: hour and I just thought it was fascinating to listen 892 00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,600 Speaker 1: to Tom Brady and Charles Woodson, who had been a 893 00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,800 Speaker 1: college teammate, who was the guy on the Raiders who 894 00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,840 Speaker 1: knocked the ball out, relived that twenty years later. So 895 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,880 Speaker 1: I think that you can find lots of interesting things 896 00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,280 Speaker 1: to do and things to watch, and UM, I don't 897 00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,000 Speaker 1: think it always needs to be business material. I listened 898 00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:02,480 Speaker 1: to a lot of podcasts on politics, on um on 899 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:08,160 Speaker 1: um history, and UM, I think that we're so lucky 900 01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:09,960 Speaker 1: to live in an age where we can where we 901 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,920 Speaker 1: can stream all that stuff. And of course, uh, I 902 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,840 Speaker 1: always make sure to listen to this business podcast. Well 903 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,000 Speaker 1: appreciate you say that. Lets let me skip over that 904 01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:24,720 Speaker 1: and and just ask you two uh more streaming questions. Um. 905 01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:28,880 Speaker 1: The first is I assume you saw the Last Dance, 906 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,840 Speaker 1: the series about Jordan and the Bulls, believe it or not, 907 01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:37,080 Speaker 1: I have not watched the whole thing because I couldn't 908 01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,920 Speaker 1: get my wife to watch the whole thing. So um 909 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,240 Speaker 1: as travel is picking up that's on the stream it alone. Camp. 910 01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:49,000 Speaker 1: I was a giant Knicks fan, and I have vivid 911 01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:54,400 Speaker 1: recollections of that era in in the late eighties and nineties, 912 01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,920 Speaker 1: just thwarted every time the Knicks ran into that buzz. 913 01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:03,320 Speaker 1: So you mentioned in stand up comedy on Netflix, UM, 914 01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:07,880 Speaker 1: I'm curious any any couple in particular stand out? What 915 01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,440 Speaker 1: what have you really enjoyed in terms of stand up Sure, 916 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:16,800 Speaker 1: there's this guy, Nate BARGOTSI. Um, he has the Tennessee 917 01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:21,600 Speaker 1: Kid in the All American Average Guy or something like that. 918 01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:24,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's something funny like that, and you know, 919 01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:31,160 Speaker 1: he's hilarious and his it's self deprecating humor. It's it's clean, 920 01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:36,120 Speaker 1: it's not political, it's he's really really good. And the 921 01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,960 Speaker 1: beauty of Netflix is you find one you like and 922 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,240 Speaker 1: then you can watch two or three others because they 923 01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:45,240 Speaker 1: probably have have UM have a whole library. And then 924 01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:50,720 Speaker 1: UM Mike Rabiglia UM has some really really interesting, thought 925 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:55,960 Speaker 1: provoking UM thought provoking UM comedy specials there too that 926 01:01:56,040 --> 01:02:01,160 Speaker 1: we really like. And then UM Aliza Slessinger who won 927 01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:06,840 Speaker 1: Last Comics Standing on NBC. UM had gone to college 928 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,800 Speaker 1: here in the Boston area. UM is hilarious and has 929 01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:15,800 Speaker 1: a number of a number of interests of fun concerts 930 01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:19,640 Speaker 1: on on on Netflix. The one of hers I remember 931 01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,160 Speaker 1: was Elder Millennial and it it is hilarious. I'm gonna 932 01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,360 Speaker 1: recommend to to you because I have a flavor of 933 01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:30,240 Speaker 1: what you like. UM, I'm gonna go out on a 934 01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:35,520 Speaker 1: on a llege with inside inside with Bo Burnham. It's 935 01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:39,360 Speaker 1: a ethlectic and here's a guy just locked in an 936 01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,919 Speaker 1: apartment making comedy all by himself in the early days 937 01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,280 Speaker 1: of the Lockdown. But the one that I'm I'm so 938 01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,600 Speaker 1: that people either love or or completely perplexed by it. 939 01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,720 Speaker 1: But the one that's a slam dunk is going to 940 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,560 Speaker 1: be the Tom Pappus comedy. He talks about his wife, 941 01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:00,200 Speaker 1: his kids, and it's just your your You and I 942 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:04,000 Speaker 1: are about the same age, and that is right talking 943 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:09,000 Speaker 1: right to our generation. And it's also pretty hilarious. Awesome. 944 01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:11,800 Speaker 1: I will definitely, I will definitely do that, all right, 945 01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:13,880 Speaker 1: So let me keep working my win and my questions. 946 01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:17,040 Speaker 1: UM tell us about your early mentors who helped to 947 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:21,120 Speaker 1: shape your career. I'm really lucky that I showed up 948 01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:25,919 Speaker 1: at a firm that really believes in partnership and mentorship. 949 01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,880 Speaker 1: And we use the word sponsorship. It's more than just mentoring. 950 01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:33,360 Speaker 1: It's it's we're responsible for each other's success. When we 951 01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:37,680 Speaker 1: were quite small and early on, I worked with two 952 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,520 Speaker 1: partners really closely, guy named Mark Nunley and the guy 953 01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:46,720 Speaker 1: named Bob white Um. And Mark was from Kentucky, Bob 954 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,160 Speaker 1: was from Woburn, Massachusetts, had been a hockey goalie in college. 955 01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:54,680 Speaker 1: And it's so reflective of who we are as a firm. 956 01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,000 Speaker 1: Mark went to Center College and HBS. Bob went to 957 01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:02,840 Speaker 1: Bowden Um played hot there and also went to HBS, 958 01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:07,080 Speaker 1: so very very different background. They had very very different 959 01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:11,920 Speaker 1: approaches to investing, and I learned with working with them 960 01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:16,240 Speaker 1: that one people really matter. People on your team and 961 01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:19,800 Speaker 1: how you treat people at the various companies you're investing in, 962 01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,800 Speaker 1: that makes a big difference. All money is green and 963 01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,720 Speaker 1: people want to want to do business with you, and 964 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:29,080 Speaker 1: you've got to leave your values every day. Secondly, there's 965 01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:31,960 Speaker 1: not only one way of doing it. Um. Mark was 966 01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,000 Speaker 1: always a little bit more of an engineer and Bob 967 01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,080 Speaker 1: was always a little bit more of an artist and 968 01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:38,880 Speaker 1: they recognize that in each other. And for me to 969 01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:42,200 Speaker 1: become the third musketeer of that group early in my 970 01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:47,600 Speaker 1: career really, uh really was was helpful. And um they've 971 01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,480 Speaker 1: both since retired from the firm, but you know, I 972 01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,760 Speaker 1: spoke to Bob last Sunday. Um he's teaching at HBS 973 01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:58,320 Speaker 1: and Marx got an office right around the corner. And 974 01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:01,840 Speaker 1: that's I think part of the beauty of the firm 975 01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,360 Speaker 1: and how we grew up together. And also, honestly, being 976 01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:07,480 Speaker 1: in Boston, it's just a little bit smaller. And then 977 01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:12,960 Speaker 1: my father in law has uh really helped helped me 978 01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:15,440 Speaker 1: in my business career. He was a senior banker. He 979 01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:19,680 Speaker 1: ran investment banking UM at Drexel Burnham. UM. I actually 980 01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:24,600 Speaker 1: met my wife after I worked for him. UM so 981 01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:29,600 Speaker 1: that was a little odd, but um so he understood, um, 982 01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:34,160 Speaker 1: the choices that you make and um and um how 983 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:38,520 Speaker 1: to think through things from review processes too. You know, 984 01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:41,439 Speaker 1: how to compensate people fairly, how you've got your own 985 01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:47,160 Speaker 1: career and um he always um made sure that you 986 01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,360 Speaker 1: don't forget that you are measured not only by what 987 01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,120 Speaker 1: you do, but what you choose not to do. UM. 988 01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:57,400 Speaker 1: And I've always thought that that's incredibly good. UM, good advice. 989 01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:02,520 Speaker 1: Let's talk about every buddy's favorite question books. Tell us 990 01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:05,120 Speaker 1: some of your favorites and what you're reading now. So 991 01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:10,880 Speaker 1: we uh talked about Brian Stevenson's book and what an incredible, uh, 992 01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:17,080 Speaker 1: incredible impact it had on me. Another interesting book. A 993 01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:21,080 Speaker 1: woman who I become friendly with through the Holocaust Memorial 994 01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:25,240 Speaker 1: named Sarah herwit Um was Michelle Obama's lead speech writer. 995 01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:29,120 Speaker 1: But when she left government, she didn't write a book 996 01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:34,000 Speaker 1: on politics. She actually had rediscovered her Jewish roots. She 997 01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:40,360 Speaker 1: had been fairly non observant, and um reimagined religion and 998 01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,240 Speaker 1: seeing it as an adult. Um. You know, and somebody 999 01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:49,840 Speaker 1: who who focuses on language reimagines or just or investigates 1000 01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,120 Speaker 1: her Jewish roots and the Jewish faith through the use 1001 01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:56,720 Speaker 1: of language, through the difference between what the values of 1002 01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:01,000 Speaker 1: the religion are versus the observances that you know, our 1003 01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:06,280 Speaker 1: traditions that came along well afterwards. And while clearly it's 1004 01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:09,160 Speaker 1: about Judaism, you could apply this to any religion and 1005 01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:14,400 Speaker 1: just think about um, you know, the philosophical under pinnings 1006 01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:18,480 Speaker 1: of religion and when people move away from their faith, 1007 01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:22,560 Speaker 1: do they do so because of belief because it's unapproachable. 1008 01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:26,400 Speaker 1: It's just brilliantly written. I I there's a chapter in 1009 01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:30,560 Speaker 1: there about imagining God, and she's like, you actually don't 1010 01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,440 Speaker 1: have to believe in God UM in any sort of 1011 01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:37,480 Speaker 1: traditional sense to UM to be a person of faith. 1012 01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:41,760 Speaker 1: And uh, She's like, I can't tell you what God is. 1013 01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:43,440 Speaker 1: I can tell you it's not an old man with 1014 01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:45,840 Speaker 1: a beard sitting on a chair. And it could be 1015 01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:48,760 Speaker 1: anything from the energy between us all as people to 1016 01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:51,960 Speaker 1: some concept of the force from Star Wars. And it's 1017 01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:56,560 Speaker 1: just a fascinating book. And I also just finished Bob 1018 01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,720 Speaker 1: Iger's memoir The Right of a Lifetime, and I thought 1019 01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,640 Speaker 1: it's just a both a fascinating personal story as well 1020 01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:09,560 Speaker 1: as UM interesting thoughts on management. And I always try 1021 01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:13,280 Speaker 1: to read UM fiction and nonfiction. I have one going 1022 01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:16,600 Speaker 1: of each at the same time. And UM. I discovered 1023 01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,800 Speaker 1: during the pandemic an author named Frederick Bachman who's a 1024 01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:23,560 Speaker 1: Swedish author UM and he wrote a book called UM 1025 01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:27,640 Speaker 1: A Man named Uva, which is ov so until I 1026 01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:29,799 Speaker 1: heard an interview with him I thought it was pronounced 1027 01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:34,280 Speaker 1: ov um and uh. And he also wrote a book 1028 01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:37,840 Speaker 1: called Anxious People in bear Town, and there he tells 1029 01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:42,960 Speaker 1: incredibly interesting stories. They're all very different. Um. They all 1030 01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:48,360 Speaker 1: sort of have twists. Um. And they explore some some 1031 01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:52,519 Speaker 1: some really important and sometimes heavy topics, but with a 1032 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:57,559 Speaker 1: humor and in approachability that is fascinating. And I just 1033 01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:00,960 Speaker 1: think his books are so incredibly well written and so 1034 01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:04,000 Speaker 1: readable that during the course of the pandemic I read 1035 01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,559 Speaker 1: three of them. Huh. Really interesting. And what was the 1036 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:11,640 Speaker 1: full title of the first first book about faith? It 1037 01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:15,040 Speaker 1: went by too quick? A Sarah's. Sarah's book is called 1038 01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:19,680 Speaker 1: here all Along, Here all Along. What she's saying is 1039 01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:25,400 Speaker 1: is that the religion in the belief existed all along. 1040 01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:27,800 Speaker 1: She just had to find it. It's been whether her. 1041 01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:31,400 Speaker 1: It's been here all along. Got it? Finding meaning, spirituality 1042 01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:34,679 Speaker 1: and a deeper connection to life. Got it. Um. We're 1043 01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:38,120 Speaker 1: down to our final two questions. What sort of advice 1044 01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:40,800 Speaker 1: would you give to a recent college grad who was 1045 01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:44,360 Speaker 1: interested in a career in investment management or finance or 1046 01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:47,240 Speaker 1: private equity. You know why you want to do it. 1047 01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:50,120 Speaker 1: If you do it just for the money, at some 1048 01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:53,240 Speaker 1: point that won't be enough. And if you're only doing 1049 01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:56,120 Speaker 1: it for the money and not because you're interested in it, 1050 01:09:56,680 --> 01:10:00,559 Speaker 1: then the money won't be there UM. And I think 1051 01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:05,479 Speaker 1: with any any um, any career you choose, it's got 1052 01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:08,080 Speaker 1: to you've got to pique your interest. You've got to 1053 01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,720 Speaker 1: be good at it um and you want to make 1054 01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:14,799 Speaker 1: sure you know why you're doing it. Good good advice, 1055 01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:17,559 Speaker 1: And our final question, what do you know about the 1056 01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,360 Speaker 1: world of investing and private equity today that you wish 1057 01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:24,040 Speaker 1: you knew thirty or so years ago when you were 1058 01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:27,479 Speaker 1: first starting out. I have an expression I use a 1059 01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:32,200 Speaker 1: lot with the team, which is it's never as good 1060 01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:34,760 Speaker 1: as it looks or as bad as it feels, and 1061 01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:38,720 Speaker 1: that when the markets are doing great, avoid the temptation 1062 01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:43,240 Speaker 1: of enjoying it too much. And when the markets are bad, 1063 01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:48,439 Speaker 1: remember that markets operating cycles and there is another side. 1064 01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:53,599 Speaker 1: And for our twentieth anniversary a few years back, I 1065 01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:58,160 Speaker 1: wrote um a letter to investors, and I had three 1066 01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:01,280 Speaker 1: pictures that summed up of the things I had learned. 1067 01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,920 Speaker 1: One was a picture of clothing tag that said one 1068 01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:07,080 Speaker 1: size fits all, the other one was a picture of 1069 01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,280 Speaker 1: Roger Federer, and the last one was a picture of 1070 01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:11,559 Speaker 1: the moon landing. And the point I was making was 1071 01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:15,080 Speaker 1: one we know that you never walk into a store 1072 01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:17,280 Speaker 1: and say I want a sweater? Do you have one 1073 01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:21,360 Speaker 1: that's one size fits all? That you can't be all 1074 01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:24,479 Speaker 1: things to all people. So um, no, what know what 1075 01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:27,320 Speaker 1: it is that you're doing and and and do that? 1076 01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:31,960 Speaker 1: Um too. I'm a huge tennis fan and um, and 1077 01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:36,800 Speaker 1: I should mention Christopher Clary's book on Roger Federer that 1078 01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:41,360 Speaker 1: just came out was was phenomenal. Um. But Roger Federer 1079 01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:44,720 Speaker 1: over the years, early on people thought I wasn't going 1080 01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:48,200 Speaker 1: to make it. He insisted on playing with you know, 1081 01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:52,439 Speaker 1: a low technology, under sized racket when people were really 1082 01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:56,880 Speaker 1: turning to power games to just crank up their serves. Um. 1083 01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:01,080 Speaker 1: He continued to to to to focus on the techniques 1084 01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:04,360 Speaker 1: or that he has and he has a one handed backhand, 1085 01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,439 Speaker 1: and as everyone was trying to tell him to change 1086 01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:11,240 Speaker 1: his game and it was unsustainable. Um, he actually knew 1087 01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:13,720 Speaker 1: who he was and he knew what his game was, 1088 01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:17,719 Speaker 1: and over time he's made tweaks. He did finally get 1089 01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,200 Speaker 1: a slightly bigger racket, but still not one of the 1090 01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:23,599 Speaker 1: huge ones, and he's added some things to his game. 1091 01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:26,920 Speaker 1: But at his core, he knows who he is, he 1092 01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:30,000 Speaker 1: knows what he's good at, and that is what has 1093 01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,280 Speaker 1: been the key to his success. He has focused on 1094 01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:35,960 Speaker 1: making that better rather than chasing the newest tennis fat. 1095 01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:39,680 Speaker 1: And then lastly, the picture of the moon landing is 1096 01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:43,480 Speaker 1: to remind people and this is really important and investing 1097 01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:46,320 Speaker 1: in everything in life. Just because you've never seen it 1098 01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:50,400 Speaker 1: before doesn't mean it can't happen, and that, Um, you 1099 01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,320 Speaker 1: need imagination and you need to be able to adapt 1100 01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:57,280 Speaker 1: to new realities all the time. Huh, really really fascinating stuff. 1101 01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:01,000 Speaker 1: Do you remember, I don't know, maybe it was like 1102 01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:06,000 Speaker 1: fifteen twenty years ago there was a David Foster Wallace 1103 01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:11,280 Speaker 1: article on Roger Federer. Um, I'm sure I can find 1104 01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:15,240 Speaker 1: it in in Google. But it was essentially Federer as 1105 01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:19,360 Speaker 1: like a near religious experience experience and how there has 1106 01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:22,439 Speaker 1: never been anybody like him. If I'm going to dig 1107 01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:25,360 Speaker 1: that up, because if you're I'm a tennis fan, I'm 1108 01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:27,800 Speaker 1: I'm late to the game. I started playing only over 1109 01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:31,240 Speaker 1: the past decade um, and have always been impressed just 1110 01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:34,840 Speaker 1: as a spectator of Federer. But if you read this 1111 01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:39,559 Speaker 1: um one piece, it's just a beautiful combination of writing 1112 01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,960 Speaker 1: and subject. Um, I think you'll find it, you know, 1113 01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:46,920 Speaker 1: absolutely intriguing. I will I will look that up. I 1114 01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,759 Speaker 1: think it was in the New York Times, and um, 1115 01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,960 Speaker 1: I will definitely look that up. I do think, you know, 1116 01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:57,240 Speaker 1: there's so many metaphors that can translate from sports to life. 1117 01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:02,760 Speaker 1: UM and UM. I who think that his discipline and 1118 01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:07,200 Speaker 1: the class and grace of his game teach us a 1119 01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,920 Speaker 1: lot about how we can conduct our lives. But also 1120 01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:15,640 Speaker 1: when you look at Nadal, there's lessons from how, um, 1121 01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:19,400 Speaker 1: how he conducts himselves and he has a particular humility. 1122 01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:23,080 Speaker 1: And UM, I just think that, as we said, the 1123 01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:27,400 Speaker 1: metaphor does translate really really interesting stuff. Well, well, thank 1124 01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,360 Speaker 1: you Jonathan for being so generous with your time. I 1125 01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:34,240 Speaker 1: really enjoyed this. We have been speaking with Jonathan Levine. 1126 01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:38,760 Speaker 1: He is the co managing partner of Being Capital. If 1127 01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:42,000 Speaker 1: you enjoy this conversation, be shure and check out any 1128 01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:46,040 Speaker 1: of our previous four hundred interviews. You can find those 1129 01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:51,720 Speaker 1: at your favorite podcast sources iTunes, Google, Bloomberg, Spotify, ETCETERA. 1130 01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,439 Speaker 1: Sign up from my daily reads at rialts dot com, 1131 01:14:55,520 --> 01:14:59,439 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at Rihalts. I would be remiss 1132 01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:01,400 Speaker 1: if I did not thank the crack team that helps 1133 01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:06,559 Speaker 1: put these conversations together each week. My researcher is Sean Russo. 1134 01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:11,040 Speaker 1: Mohammed Ramaui is my audio engineer. Paris Wald is my 1135 01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:16,280 Speaker 1: producer ATKO val Bron is our project manager. I'm Barry Ritolts. 1136 01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,200 Speaker 1: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.