1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Welcome Ridiculous Historians to this week's classic episode. If you're 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: hearing this when it publishes, welcome to December seventh, twenty 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: twenty four, Joined as always with my super producer, mister 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: Max Williams. 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: I'm guessing I am going to be the second most 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 2: famous Max on this episode. 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 3: I don't know, man, don't you know what history is? Weird? 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: And dare I say ridiculous? It's Ben Bullen here with 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: Max Williams, our faithful correspondence. Mister Noel Brown is adventuring 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: and Max, I am so glad that you are here 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: with us. In this intro to our classic episode, we 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: were talking about it a little bit off air. This 13 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: is the story of another Max. 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, this one's interesting because I've heard this one referenced 15 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: a lot, so you know, this is before I worked 16 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 2: on the show. But this is what This is our 17 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: cutoff time right for stories. If it's after this, it's 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: not We can't consider it history right. 19 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 20 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: That is a decision I made arbitrarily, and we've just 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: sort of gone with that for quite some time. It 22 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: goes back to the philosophical question of what counts as history. 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: History is a living thing. It's an ongoing conversation. If 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: you are a fan of history, then you probably have 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: dealt with the same dilemma you have wrestled with this 26 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: idea what counts as history, what counts as the present? 27 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: Why is why is postmodern literature such a magabadger, such 28 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: a pickle when it comes to the idea of experience. 29 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: We're talking today about a primate named Max, not to 30 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: be confused with our super producer, mister Max Williams. We're 31 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: talking about a guy who was once upon a time 32 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: the most famous crime fighting gorilla in all of South Africa. Now, 33 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: our buddy Max here is a Western Lowland gorilla. He 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: was at the Johannesburg Zoo and in nineteen ninety seven 35 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: he was shot and he was wounded, and he became 36 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: a symbol for larger tensions and social issues within the 37 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: nation of South Africa. And to your point, Max, in 38 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: this episode you will hear a pivotal moment for us 39 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:45,279 Speaker 1: on ridiculous history. This is the episode wherein we determined 40 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: our cutoff for the past versus the present. Anything that 41 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: happened before nineteen ninety seven counts as ridiculous history for us. 42 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: Anything after that, well, negotiable. 43 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. 44 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: I'm excited for this. Let's get into it. 45 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show, 46 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: fellow Ridiculous Historians, friends and neighbors, US residents and citizens 47 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: of the world alike. We are going on a journey 48 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: today to a different part of the world, and what 49 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: better way to get into it than to open with 50 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: a question, Noel, have you ever seen a gorilla in 51 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: real life? 52 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 3: Yes? At the Columbia Zoo in Colombia, South Carolina, they 53 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: have a gorilla situation. There, a gorilla situation. Have a 54 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 3: gorilla sitch? Yeah, now silverbacks, I believe. Oh and I'm ben. Oh, 55 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 3: of course you are. 56 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: And we have to, of course give a shout out 57 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: to our long suffering super producer, Casey Pegram. 58 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 3: He's still in the wind, but he's here in spirit. 59 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 3: In fact, today we are kind of producerless and peek 60 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 3: behind the curtain. It is Memorial Day and we are 61 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 3: here in the office making this episode just for you, 62 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 3: just for you, specifically you. 63 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: Yes, if you're listening, you're thinking we're talking about a 64 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: general to you. 65 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 3: No, we don't do that. 66 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: No, it's specifically you. And what better way to start, 67 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: we thought today than to talk a little bit about gorillas. 68 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: These are amazing. 69 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 3: Creatures they are, and they are majestic and also quite powerful. 70 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, a lot of upper body strength. They got 71 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 3: those big old forearms and those tiny little legs. But man, 72 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: I would not want to run into one in a 73 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 3: dark alley or you know, accidentally end up flung into 74 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: its pen. 75 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're the largest living primate. Males are about twice 76 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: the size of females, so a male gorilla can weigh 77 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: up the four hundred pounds. 78 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: And they. 79 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: Have opposable thumbs just like us, right, so they can manipulate, 80 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: hold and carry things. They're also really really smart and 81 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: they are fun. Fact, although they look like they might 82 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: be ferocious carnivores, they're not. 83 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 3: You remember Coco Cocoa, the sign language gorilla, right, heartwarming story. 84 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: There still still a little controversial in the science. But 85 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, that that stuff can break your 86 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: heart because it feels like it's having very human, self aware, 87 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: sapient interactions. 88 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: Well, if you want going to double down on the heartbreak, Ben, 89 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 3: there's actually a picture of Robin Williams kicking it with 90 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 3: Coco and it will jerk some tears right out of 91 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 3: your ey eye holes if you look at that. 92 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: One eye holes. Oh, the Rick and Morty reference that 93 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: we're just gonna leave there, what is it? 94 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 3: Terry flaps? Yeah, texted me. But on the way up 95 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 3: and you were downstairs and you you asked me if 96 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 3: I wanted to touch your terry flaps. 97 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: Yes, that is a that is a reference. Don't go 98 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: calling hr on us, folks. That is a reference to 99 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: Rick and Morty. But but the the statement of eye holes, yeah, 100 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: it's it's true. It will hurt your eye holes and 101 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: your heartholes to see Robin Williams with that, that lovely gorilla. Now, 102 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: Coco has something in common with our with our protagonists, 103 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: or a tragic hero of today's story, because Coco is 104 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: a type of gorilla called a Western Lowland gorilla. Western 105 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: Lowland gorillas are the primary type of gorilla that you 106 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: will see in a zoo across the world. There are 107 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: some exceptions. There's an Eastern Lowland gorilla that lives at 108 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: the Antwerp Zoo, and there are some mountain gorillas that 109 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: live in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And I 110 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: mean zoo gorillas, not gorillas in the wild. So typically, 111 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: if you are imagining a gorilla exhibit you have seen 112 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: or a preservation you've seen here in the States, then 113 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: it is going to be it's going to be a 114 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: home to western lowland gorillas. They're generally lighter colored than 115 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: Eastern gorillas, but in terms of behavior, they're still the same. 116 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: They're very intelligent, they're tremendously strong, They're calm until they're 117 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: not well. 118 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 3: They're highly territorial. They will protect their turf and their 119 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 3: own if you come up upon them and oppose a threat, 120 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: they will go to great length to defend themselves and 121 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 3: their loved ones. 122 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: And occasionally these stories pop up in the news like Harambei, 123 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: the gorilla who was tragically put to death. 124 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: A little kid fell in the pen. 125 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: When a kid a human child something sounds so creepy 126 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: and David Bowie esque and Labyrinth saying human child. 127 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well a. 128 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: Kid fell in and as a result, Rombey was put 129 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: to sleep. 130 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 131 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: And today's story centers on a human man, a human man, yes, 132 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: who was once a human child, and a gorilla named 133 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: Max who lived at the Johannesburg Zoo. 134 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 3: So, as the story goes, a guy was fleeing the police. 135 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 3: He had robbed some houses. He was on the lamb, 136 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 3: he was on the run, and he vaulted a fence. 137 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 3: I'm trying to picture how this happened, Like, did he 138 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 3: know what he was getting into? Was He's like, that's cool, 139 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 3: I'll figure this out. Anyway, vaulted defence, running from the cops, 140 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 3: ended up inside Max's gorilla pit. Yeah, that he shared 141 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 3: with his life partner, Lisa. 142 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: His mate, his better half. So this guy, this criminal, 143 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: Isaac Mofokang, jumps into the zoo as he said, Noel, 144 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: and Max, as we had established earlier, being a gorilla, 145 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: is thinking, who the heck is this? This is not 146 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: a zookeeper. This is not one of the people that 147 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: I know. And so he defends his territory. What we 148 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: mean by that is he displays signs of intimidation and 149 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: he moves toward Isaac Mofo Kang and Mofo Kang. Unfortunately 150 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: for Max was. 151 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 3: Armed, Yeah, and he put a few slugs and old 152 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 3: Max didn't he He. 153 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: Shot him in the chest, but that was not enough 154 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: to stop a four hundred pounds angry gorilla. So Max 155 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: bites Isaac, and you know, we try to be a 156 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: family show. But bites him in the butt essentially, and 157 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: it sounds hilarious now, but that is a grievous wound. 158 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: So he has Isaac Muffulken bitten in the buttocks. He's 159 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: pinned him against the wall. This man is about to die. 160 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: Police intervene and in the process of rescuing Isaac, the 161 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: police officers, at least two of them, are also injured. 162 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 3: By Max, He's not having it well. I mean, you know, 163 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: he can't differentiate at this point between friend or foe. 164 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 3: He's already been threatened. And then these other schmo's show 165 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 3: up trying to apprehend the suspects, and to Max, they're 166 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 3: just another part of the problem. They are trespassing on 167 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 3: his land and he's been shot. Well, got shot in 168 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: the chest and then in the neck, right right, yeah, 169 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 3: through the neck. But I think the one in the 170 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 3: neck passed right through, I want to say, luckily. And 171 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 3: then the one in the chest was not a mortal wound, thankfully, 172 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 3: And in fact, I think they actually left it in. 173 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 3: They left the bullet in because it would have been 174 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 3: more traumatic for Max if they had had to digger 175 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 3: and do surgery to get it out and they put 176 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 3: them down. Yeah, under anesthetic rather, but we are getting 177 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 3: ahead of ourselves. 178 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: We are getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. There's 179 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: just a bit more color we should add to the 180 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: story here, because in many other countries and many other 181 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: points in time, this may have been a story that 182 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: you hear as a three to four minute piece on 183 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: your evening news right you turn it, you tune into 184 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: channel eleven whatever, and people are saying, strange story from 185 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: a local Columbia zoo or something. However, this was Johannesburg, 186 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: South Africa in the late nineties. People were tremendously concerned 187 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: about crime in the city and so Max became famous 188 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: for this. 189 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, something of a symbol you know, of I don't know, 190 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: maybe rule of laws not the right term, but just 191 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: the idea of pushing back against criminals that were just 192 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 3: everywhere the wave of crime. This is awful, and you know, 193 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 3: we're gonna get a little more into this, but we 194 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 3: also haven't really talked about the fact that this is 195 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 3: the nineties and our show's called ridiculous history and the 196 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: notion of the nineties. It seems a little off even 197 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 3: for us. We were like, is this really historical, but 198 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 3: man was at a different time. It was a very 199 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: different time. 200 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: And the way that we decided to approach this was 201 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: to look at what we would call a cutoff date, right, like, 202 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: at what point does something become history even though we're 203 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: creating it every single second of our lives. I think 204 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: we can all agree that right now two thousand and eight. 205 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 3: Would still be a little too recent. I think so. 206 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 3: But nineteen ninety and not to mention the history surrounding 207 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 3: this time in Johannesburg and South African general, we forget 208 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 3: I certainly forgot that apartheid, this this institutionalized racist government 209 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 3: that own owned South Africa for decades, had only just 210 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 3: ended and there was severe fallout. You know, they had 211 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 3: democracy for the first time after the end of apartheid. 212 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: This again institutionalized segregation of the majority black population of 213 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 3: the country and by the minority white government of the country. 214 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 3: We can get in a little bit more specifics about 215 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 3: that in a minute, but that's the that's the atmosphere here. Yeah, 216 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: and the crime, you know, the non political violence is 217 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: there's no rule of law. It's like a free for 218 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 3: all in the street. It absolutely as a total powder 219 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 3: k and this idea of Max, I think it could 220 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 3: be argued was sort of a beacon of hope that 221 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 3: was very quickly latched onto by the community. Yeah. Yeah. 222 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: One thing that may be useful by way of comparison 223 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: for American listeners is to think of McGruff the crime dog. 224 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 3: Do you remember McGruff? Noll I do, But he was 225 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 3: a cartoon and he was pretty inspiring. Just as a cartoon, 226 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 3: This was a real life gorilla that had weathered this 227 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 3: chaotic environment. 228 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: And the reason the reason I bring up the McGruff 229 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: comparison is because Max becomes this very useful symbol for 230 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: the police, as we said, and he has merchandise that 231 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: comes out. We've got stuffed Max dolls. 232 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: Well, and McGruff would take a bite out of crime. 233 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 3: Max took a bite out of the butt of crime. 234 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: Yes, and Max was also as you had said, Max 235 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: was real. This was a real incident. But he didn't 236 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: just get stuffed animals made in his likeness. He became 237 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: a celebrity. And I don't know if you had ever 238 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: heard this word, but this was my first time reading 239 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: the word spokes beast. 240 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 3: Was he a pan sexual, non threatening spokes thing? Remember 241 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 3: that from mister show pit pat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 242 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 3: spokes beast. He was the spokes beast for Labombo Bananas 243 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 3: and he actually got paid with a year's supply of 244 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 3: free bananas. They literally made it rain bananas on Max Catching. 245 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: A computer company hired him to pose in ads for 246 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: its new software. 247 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. I wonder what the software was called. I couldn't. 248 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: I couldn't find any specifics about that, but it was, Yeah, 249 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: you have a gorilla kind of chilling your software for you. 250 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 3: That's that's interesting. He must have really been beloved. There 251 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 3: was There was a drink, an energy drink, which I 252 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: love the name of. It's just called Energade or Innergade. 253 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 3: I was wondering, is it interrogate or energy as well. 254 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 3: It's sort of like a Gatorade equivalent. I guess they 255 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 3: they signed up Max after they learned that that was 256 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: Max's favorite drink for taking antibiotics at the zoo. The 257 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 3: zoo keepers would slip his meds into a nice refreshing 258 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 3: bottle of energade. 259 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: And so he thought he was having a juice party, 260 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: which you know that I can easily see that happen 261 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: because if Innergate or Energade is anything like Gatorade or 262 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: power Aid. Then it's probably very sugary. 263 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 3: Right. 264 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: So a bank and a construction company also sponsored Max, 265 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: meaning that they contributed money to the zoo for his upkeep, 266 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: medical bills, feeding. 267 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 3: Et cetera. Yeah, like upgrading his pen, things like that, 268 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 3: the infrastructure. Because again, he was like a local He 269 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 3: wasn't a national treasure, you know, a local hero. We 270 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 3: got to tell the newspaper story. This is great. Yeah, 271 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 3: the Saturday Star paid twenty two hundred bucks for a 272 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 3: photo or I guess for a photo shoot where Max 273 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 3: was browsing the paper and they got the photos. 274 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: After they got the photos, because Max clearly is a 275 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: professional at this point, after they got the photos, he 276 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: went ahead and ate every. 277 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 3: Page of the paper. He was a fan. He was 278 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: a fan. He was trying to take it all in 279 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 3: through osmosis. 280 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: It's similar to what more Sendak called the highest praise 281 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: he had ever received, the children's. 282 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 3: Author of Where the Wild Things Are. Uh. 283 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: He said he received a note from a fan who 284 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: did they enjoyed his book, reading it, and they also 285 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: wanted to eat it. 286 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 3: My girlfriend asked me the strangest question the other day. 287 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 3: She said, have you ever eaten paper to keep someone 288 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 3: from getting it, like like a note. And at first 289 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 3: I was like, what do you talk? What do you mean? 290 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 3: And she you know, I mean like, if you have 291 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 3: a teacher caught you passing a note in class, rather 292 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 3: than having her confiscate it and see what horrid things 293 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 3: you were writing, I'll just eat it. Yeah, I'm like, 294 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 3: it's that as. 295 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: Baller, that sounds like something people should not admit to doing. 296 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 3: Well, I'm sorry for throwing her under the bus, but 297 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 3: you guys don't know. Oh did she did she admit it? 298 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 3: She admitted it. Yeah. I mean it's resourceful. I think 299 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 3: so too. But what was she possibly writing that would 300 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 3: have been like worth consuming right there in front of 301 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 3: the teacher? 302 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: Overthrow the teacher. The revolution is now. 303 00:17:58,119 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 3: I think so. 304 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: Speaking of which, Yes, speaking of which, we could go 305 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: on a list some of Max's sponsorships, but it's more important, 306 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: we feel, to explore why this occurred. Once this came so, 307 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: we mentioned, we mentioned apartheid, we mentioned the distinction between 308 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: political and non political crime, and unfortunately we could do 309 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: an entirely different show on the systemic causes of apartheid, 310 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: the process of combating it, and the ramifications of apartheid 311 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: that remain in Johannesburg in the modern day. But we 312 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: feel the cultural ecology from which Max's celebrity arises is 313 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: as important as the details of that moment in the zoo. 314 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: Oh for sure, dare we say much more important. But 315 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 3: Max being like like a batman esque figure like and 316 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 3: Johannesburg and South Africa being the Gotham city, everyone needs 317 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 3: a hero they can look to, they can believe it, 318 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 3: they can believe in And as silly as that sounds, 319 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 3: and you know, we're editorializing a little bit here, but 320 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 3: I can't help but think that's what caused this gorilla 321 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 3: to reach such heights of celebrity. You know, just a 322 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 3: bit of background, because I did not know quite how 323 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 3: far back this stretched. Apartheid became law in South Africa 324 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty. Things like marriages between white people and 325 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 3: black people were forbidden, any kind of sexual relations. The 326 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 3: idea was to separate not only black people from white people, 327 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 3: but black people from each other and like sectionalize them 328 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 3: into different They called them, you know, tribal factions or whatever, 329 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 3: and it kept them from organizing and kept them from 330 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 3: fighting back and having political power. Right, they had to 331 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 3: carry papers. It was like Nazi Germany. And this again, 332 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 3: this did not really fully come to an end, at 333 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 3: least on the books until nineteen ninety three. Right. 334 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, this process of setting aside territory and for black 335 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: inhabitants of South Africa at the time was the things 336 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: they were making were known as Bantustans and ten of 337 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: them were established in South Africa to concentrate members of 338 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: certain ethnic groups, making those groups, in the opinion of 339 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: the ruling party, ethically homogeneous and making them nation states. 340 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: But it also it also, as you said, had the 341 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: clear effect of removing or stymying the ability of people 342 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: to band together in a larger force to combat apartheid. 343 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: Apartheid was based on the principle known as boss cop. 344 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: Now neither Noel nor I speak this language, but boss 345 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: cop with two a's two s is was this. It's 346 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: this concept that translates from Afrikaans to something like boss ship, 347 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: like being the boss or domination. It's it's essentially it's 348 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: white supremacy. And the idea of the National Party at 349 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: this time was very much solidly based in the old 350 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: concepts of colonialism. The idea that there is some sort 351 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 1: of a stab, there's some sort of inborn superiority, depending 352 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: on how one defines a race or whatever. And we 353 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: must also point out that these kinds of concepts, this 354 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: white supremacy stuff is not is not a just a 355 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: general all white people are better, because there are also 356 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: levels in their white supremacist ideas that certain white people are, 357 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, somehow better than other. 358 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 3: White people, et cetera. And these concepts go back to 359 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 3: the very founding of South Africa as an independent nation. 360 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 3: In nineteen thirteen, this thing called the Land Act was 361 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:24,239 Speaker 3: passed that began this segregation of Black Africans and the 362 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 3: minority whites and also deprived Black Africans of the ability 363 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 3: to work as sharecroppers and they were you know, denied 364 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 3: a means of an income essentially. 365 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And this again, this applied not just to 366 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: people that the governing forces characterized as black. It applied 367 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: to people that they characterized as non white in any ways. 368 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: So this also included what would be described as South 369 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: Asians or people they would have called Indians at the time. 370 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 3: And it would split up families because a mother, for example, 371 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 3: could be considered black or Bantu. And then a child 372 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 3: or a spouse could be classified differently, and it would 373 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: literally break up these families. 374 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's spot on. Through the dual use of 375 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: bureaucracy and brutality, they attempted to and in some spheres, 376 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: succeeded in taking this insane notion and enforcing it or 377 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: bringing it to a horrific reality on innocent people. These 378 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: are not you know, it's not like a weird punishment 379 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: they made up for soldiers. These are civilians, these are children. Yeah, 380 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:50,479 Speaker 1: and we see already an unsustainable situation. Things like what 381 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: we see historically. What we find is that in cases 382 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: of discrimination, which always always exists, cases where this sort 383 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 1: of execrable suppression and oppression of people occurs, there is 384 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: almost always going to be a backlash. 385 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, instant opposition in the form of the African National 386 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 3: Congress as early as the nineteen thirteen Land Act, that 387 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 3: controversial law that was passed. And this is the party 388 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 3: that would be like if we're talking rebels versus you know, 389 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 3: the Empire, these are the rebels right in star Wars 390 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 3: parlace here. And it wasn't until the late forties that 391 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 3: the idea of apartheid actually began. The African or National 392 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 3: Party actually won an election using this. This the first 393 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 3: time you started seeing this word apartheid, which means separateness. 394 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 3: There's a fantastic rundown of all of this in the 395 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 3: timeline of Apartheid on history dot Com that I recommend 396 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 3: checking out. For sure. It gives you a pretty deep 397 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 3: dive into some of this. And we're not going to 398 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 3: go into the minutia of all of it, because it's 399 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 3: a whole, like you said, been a whole story unto itself. 400 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 3: But from the very start you have this opposition and 401 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 3: a culture of violence, a culture of war essentially. 402 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the precedents for these racist beliefs existed for 403 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: a long long time. They were codified in the late forties. 404 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: But the history of the African National Congress, as you said, 405 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: doesn't start just there in the forties. 406 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 3: The origins go back. 407 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 1: You'll hear people report that the African National Congress really 408 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: starts or it's the first inklings of this begin when 409 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: a fellow named Pixley Saka Seme says in nineteen eleven, 410 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: forget all the past differences among Africans and unite in 411 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: one national organization. It's also really important to say this 412 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: that during the time of colonialism, many of the borders 413 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: that were established in the modern states now were created 414 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: to purposefully divide existing communities. So now it doesn't matter 415 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: if for time immemorial you and you and the rest 416 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: of your community have lived in this one area. Right 417 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: once the national lines are drawn by these European powers, 418 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you are different states. 419 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 3: Almost like a more extreme version of something like gerrymandering, 420 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 3: where you're sort of rigging the game against people to 421 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 3: ensure that they have no voice politically. 422 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: Right from the perspective of the pro apartheid National Party, 423 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: the activities of the National Congress are terrorism essentially, that's 424 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: what they're That's what they are are perceiving it as. 425 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: That's what they're portraying it as in the international media. 426 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 3: But you gotta fight fire with fire, Ben, I mean, 427 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 3: these is essentially a fascist regime, you know, that is 428 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 3: trying to utterly crush any kind of resistance with violence, 429 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,719 Speaker 3: and the only way to fight back against that is 430 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: with more violence, And unfortunately a lot of the time, 431 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 3: I mean, that's the thing. The history of this country 432 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 3: is so rooted in conflict, just constant conflict from the 433 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: beginning until apartheid came to an end in the early nineties. Well, 434 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 3: the conflict's change, perhaps, that's what I'm saying, Even the 435 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 3: notion of it coming to an end in them establishing 436 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: real democracy. That does not happen overnight, especially when you've 437 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 3: just had constant struggle for decades and decades, it becomes ingrained. 438 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,959 Speaker 1: You know, in nineteen sixty seventy black demonstrators are killed 439 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: in Sharpville and the African National Congress is officially banned, 440 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: just just like ten years after the government comes to power, 441 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: they classify everybody by race. Oh, they also banned the 442 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: Communist Party as well in nineteen fifty. Let me go 443 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: back for a second. In nineteen fifty, Nelson Mandela is 444 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: responding to the banning of the Communist Party, these racial 445 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: classifications and such by launching a campaign of civil disobedience. 446 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: But when the ANC is officially banned in nineteen sixty 447 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: one year later, Nelson Mandela in nineteen sixty one heads 448 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: the African National Congress's new military wing, which launches sabotage campaigns, 449 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: and these become you know, these become on the ground operations, 450 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: so no more civil disobedience. These are acts to meant 451 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: to purposely in some way cripple the function of the government. 452 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean they are in open rebellion. And Nelson Mandela. 453 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 3: After many of the leaders of the movement were jailed 454 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 3: or executed, Mandela was in prison, as you know, for 455 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 3: quite a long time, from nineteen sixty three until believe 456 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: just nineteen ninety and they kind of bounced him all 457 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 3: over town, didn't they been. Yeah. Yeah. 458 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: He was originally jailed in Marshall Square Prison in Johannesburg. 459 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: He along with his co defendants, admitted that they had 460 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: committed acts of sabotage, but denied that they were waging 461 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: guerrilla war against the governments. Of course, there's sentence to 462 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: life in prison, although the prosecutor demanded the death sentence. 463 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: Mandela is eventually transferred to Robin Island. 464 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 3: Where he is. 465 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: Forced to live for the next eighteen years. And at 466 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: this point he's thinking, you know, I may be in 467 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: jail for the rest of my natural life. He gets 468 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: transferred to a couple of different prisons. There is also 469 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: a free Mandela protest taking place at that time. The 470 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: politics don't stop because he is imprisoned, and he in 471 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: many ways becomes a symbol for the fight against apartheid. 472 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: He gets transferred to a prison in Cape Town called 473 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: Pollsmoor Prison and the conditions they are a little better 474 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: than they are at Robin Island. But then he gets 475 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: transferred to Victor Verster Prison near a place called part 476 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: and he eventually, going back to what you said, he 477 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: eventually in nineteen ninety is freed. 478 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 3: He is freed and hem in league with the current 479 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: President FW de Clerk, who was the head of the 480 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 3: government at the time. They work together to repeal many 481 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 3: of these apartheid laws that have been on the books 482 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 3: for so long and establish a new constitution which gave 483 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 3: African black citizens the right to vote democratically and other 484 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 3: racial groups that were also discriminated against as you mentioned 485 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 3: non whites, and all of this went into play in 486 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four, they started free elections and essentially laid 487 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 3: the groundwork for having a free and democratic society. 488 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: Right the ANC campaign to ninety four, their slogan is 489 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: a better life for all and there's a focus on development. 490 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: This is around the time that the world, much of 491 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: which was already against the pre existing system of apartheid. 492 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: This is when the world also starts to actively support 493 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela and the A and C through the soft 494 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: diplomacy of international accolades and awards, most particularly the Nobel Prize. 495 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, he shared that with the clerk. 496 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: And the campaign was meant to not just break the system, 497 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: but to build a better one. They had and continue 498 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: to pursue as we're going to find noble goals. One 499 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: such would be the idea of building a million houses 500 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: in five years, free education, access to water and electricity 501 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: because many people went without it. 502 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 3: And this constitution was insanely forward thinking, had so many 503 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 3: protections built into the language, protections that we don't have 504 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 3: on the books that we fight for daily in this country. 505 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 3: Protection for gays and lesbians, leading to the being called 506 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 3: the Rainbow Nation. Rainbow Nation exactly. Not only that, some 507 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 3: of those very progressive ideas of how to establish good 508 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: housing for the poor, the idea of basic human rights, 509 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 3: to education, to healthcare, workers' rights, access to information again, women, 510 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:14,239 Speaker 3: gays and lesbians, children, environmental protections. And then there's this 511 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 3: thing that I thought was so cool. It's called the 512 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 3: principle of the ratchet. And this was language built into 513 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: this constitution that said, essentially even if the government can't, 514 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 3: with the resources currently available, give all of these things 515 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 3: like schools, housing, clean water to every community all at once, 516 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 3: it has to convince the courts that they are working 517 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 3: towards it in a fundamentally real way. 518 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: Which is fantastic because it's a baked in accountability right. 519 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: And while we are rightly praising the anc for doing 520 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: a thing that many people around the world once thought 521 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,479 Speaker 1: was impossible, we do also have to acknowledge that the 522 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: way they got there did involve what you know, did 523 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: involve more than non violence and more than sabotage of 524 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 1: industrial stuff like in There's an article in The New 525 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: York Times from nineteen ninety seven that examines how senior 526 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 1: officials of the African National Congress later after taking powers, 527 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: said that they had, if not actively participating in some 528 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: of the guerrilla violence that Mandela had been accused of 529 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: and his co defendants, they could have at the very 530 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: least done something to stop it. They were tacitly aiding 531 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: people who were perpetrating these events. Again not all on 532 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: not all on just you know, soldiers of the pro 533 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: apartheid side, but again men, women and children. 534 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 3: The line becomes so blurred because so many of these 535 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 3: groups are little independent offshoots, independent rebel grips, militias that 536 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 3: are armed, because apparently in nineteen ninety four you could 537 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 3: buy an AK forty seven on the black market for 538 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 3: what would equate to about fifteen dollars American. There's this 539 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 3: incredibly moving and disturbing article in The New Republic from 540 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four called South Africa's Violent Road to Real 541 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 3: Democracy and it mentions some of these statistics about the 542 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 3: AK forty seven and how supposedly at the time you 543 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 3: could order a hit for that same amount fifty rand. 544 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 3: And this article centers, at least in the early part 545 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 3: of it, around this hospital called Bara gowan Off Hospital 546 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 3: shortened to the Barra, which is in the Soweto township 547 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 3: of Johannesburg, and it just shows a lot of the 548 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 3: comings and goings and interviews a lot of the doctors, 549 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 3: and it just you know, you're seeing stabbing victims coming through, 550 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 3: people with these very telltale wounds from a particular weapon 551 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 3: called a panga, which is like a machete that the 552 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 3: members of the Zulu faction would carry, and it just 553 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 3: the sense of desperation that comes across in this article, 554 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 3: like they refer to the Doctor's Trauma ward as the 555 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 3: pit and it just I can't imagine the chaos. And 556 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 3: it does a really good job of kind of differentiating 557 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 3: between the political violence that had a death toll of 558 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 3: more than fifteen thousand over a span of four years, 559 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 3: but the majority of the violence that outshine even that 560 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 3: insane number was just criminal violence. 561 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And I'm glad you're bringing this up, although 562 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: it is a disturbing thing. In two thousand and seven, 563 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,760 Speaker 1: the South African government contacted the Center for the Study 564 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: of Violence and Reconciliation to figure out why this crime 565 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: occurs or what the tone of it is, the systemic causes, 566 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: and one of the things they found was that the 567 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:05,720 Speaker 1: courts were inefficient and that violence had become normalized. 568 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 3: So this was expected. 569 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 1: And this is also tying in, of course, the vulnerability 570 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: of young people, high levels of inequality. From these various factors, 571 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: we see hard numbers arise. I think in the same 572 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: article you mentioned sites, at least in that time, South 573 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: Africa's murder rate was ten times that of the United States, 574 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: which you know has a national image of a country 575 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: with a cartoonish murder rate. 576 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 3: Here at the US. Yeah, and of course you know 577 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 3: with this chaos, the African National Congress was constantly at 578 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 3: war with the police and their goal, according to this 579 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 3: article and everything else we've seen, was to make these 580 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 3: various areas, these townships ungovernable is the word they use here. 581 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 3: And so you're dealing with this just decades long struggle 582 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 3: that never quite comes to an end even after apartheid ends. 583 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 3: You can't just turn that off with the passage of 584 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 3: the law. 585 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: Right, it's very difficult to address all of the contributing factors, 586 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: the old enmities, because we can't forget that many of 587 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: the pro apartheid individuals that were active in the government 588 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: were also tremendously financially influential, right or socially influential. 589 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 3: So some of those means. 590 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: Of not to sound like a banned Communist Party member, 591 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: but many of those means of production were still owned 592 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: by the forces of apartheid or portype. 593 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,439 Speaker 3: People allow money to be made with constant conflicts, right, 594 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 3: and this. 595 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: We know that this sounds like disturbing stuff. But while 596 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: we're painting this picture, we don't want to gloss over 597 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: the fact that South Africa as a nation has made 598 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: tremendous progress, but that progress still continues today. South Africa 599 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: as recently as twenty fifteen have been characterized by British 600 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: papers like The Guardian as a country at war. There 601 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: were the murder rates sword to nearly forty nine people 602 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: a day in South Africa overall, and of course that's 603 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: not going to be evenly distributed. A lot of that 604 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: happens in the urban centers. But despite all of that, 605 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: this progress continues the legacy of the African National Congress continues. 606 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 3: It's interesting, though, because Johannesburg is subject to something that 607 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 3: we are seeing quite a lot of here in Atlanta, 608 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 3: which is rabid gentrification. A lot of these formerly uninhabitable 609 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 3: or very very highly dangerous places, burnt out buildings, abandoned locations, 610 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 3: have now been cleared out of squatters, you know, very 611 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 3: low income homeless people that are living there illegally. They 612 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 3: have all been cleared out to make way for developers. 613 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 3: There is an area, as an article on CNN called 614 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 3: Johannesburg's crime hotspot transformed to hipster hangout that's very familiar 615 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 3: to where we're sitting right here, in a place called 616 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 3: Pont City Market in Atlanta on a street called Ponce 617 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 3: de lay On that used to be very dangerous and 618 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 3: a lot of crime, and now it's kind of a 619 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 3: lot of that's been swept away and replaced by bougie 620 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,399 Speaker 3: hipster malls, and that same thing is happening in Johannesburg. 621 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: Activists are referring to this as spatial apartheid and calling 622 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 1: for occupations of Cape Town. There's there's another article from 623 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,879 Speaker 1: the Guardian, whom I found had a lot of great 624 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: reporting on this by Alice mc cool that examines how 625 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 1: these housing activists are taking over a nurses home, a 626 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: hospital and attempting to gain national and international recognition of 627 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: the housing problem, both in terms of affordability, in terms 628 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: of gentrification, and in terms of historical land theft, which 629 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:23,760 Speaker 1: is you know what happened? 630 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 3: Well, of course I saw a thing in this article 631 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 3: from CNN about how these developers are now looking at 632 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 3: Johannesburg as a super hotspot for buying up real estate. 633 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 3: One developer in particular, who is doing a project called 634 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 3: Arts on Main in a precinct called the Mobonang which 635 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 3: means place of Light, talks about these stats. He says 636 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,439 Speaker 3: it's paid off financially, but it will pay off more 637 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 3: in the medium to long term. And this is a 638 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 3: developer by the name of Jonathan Leebman who is kind 639 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 3: of making this his a big project of his. Apparently, 640 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 3: apartments now can get one between the range of two 641 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 3: hundred and eighty thousand RAN or about twenty eight thousand 642 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 3: dollars American to three million RAN, which is about three 643 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 3: hundred thousand and Libman says that these prices in Johannesburg 644 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 3: are skyrocketing so he can buy up buildings. He said 645 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 3: he used to be'd pay one hundred euros a square 646 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 3: meter for a building, and now because of the efforts 647 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 3: of guys like him, the prices are going through the roof. 648 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: And in twenty eleven the government tried to combat this 649 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: by ruling that local councils local governments essentially are required 650 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 1: to house anyone evicted to make room for a private 651 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: or public development. But the problem is, according to activists, 652 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: that the authorities who are charged with this responsibility only 653 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: provide overcrowded blocks where families are still forcibly split up, 654 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: or squalid slums essentially, and even those only meet a 655 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: fraction of the demand. 656 00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 3: So we can. 657 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: See with this, with the ecology the environment in which 658 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: these events occur, we can see how injustice becomes a 659 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: daily part of almost every human being's life, right at 660 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: least for that time. And so of course there is 661 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: something tremendously powerful and cathartic about seeing justice done. Both 662 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: for oddly enough the speculation, but both the pro apartheid 663 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: racist forces, the authoritarians or the empire from your earlier comparison, 664 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: and the rebel forces or the people fighting for equality 665 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: both saw something in Max the gorilla because they saw 666 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 1: rule of law. 667 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 3: Right. 668 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: If you're pro police, you're seeing like, oh, look, rule 669 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: of law. The authorities won. If you're anti police, you're saying, oh, look, 670 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: finally someone who can do the job. And because of this, 671 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:06,879 Speaker 1: for a time, Max becomes this universally lauded figure. And 672 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: Isaac the unfortunate, Isaac Mofolkung who goes to jail he has. 673 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 3: Captured a forty year sentence, got a forty year sentence. 674 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 3: A judge referred to him as an unguided missile, a 675 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 3: loose cannon, a time bomb, because he had had just 676 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 3: a rap sheet, a very thick one, let's say that. 677 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And he eventually passed away in a psychiatric hospital. 678 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: But you and I were talking off air about this nool. 679 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: There were some suspicious circumstances to his death. 680 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, Supposedly his sister got a call I believe it 681 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 3: was his sister from somebody from the facility saying that 682 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 3: he had passed away after vomiting and collapsing. But then 683 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 3: when they got to the hospital, the story changed to 684 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 3: this idea that he had stolen a fistful of another 685 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 3: patient's medication. When they come around with those trays, I 686 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 3: guess with the pills and the cups and gobble them down, 687 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,800 Speaker 3: attempting suicide and succeeding. But the circumstances are a little murky, 688 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,280 Speaker 3: and it's this The whole story is a little strange. 689 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you have to put yourself in the family's position. 690 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:19,120 Speaker 1: How else can you react but with suspicion when someone 691 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: tells you one story about your loved one's death and 692 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: then they tell you a completely different story. 693 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 3: So there remains. 694 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:33,399 Speaker 1: From that family's perspective and unsolved mystery regarding the shooter. 695 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:34,240 Speaker 3: Of Max the gorilla. 696 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: Regarding Isaac, we should also say Max's story doesn't end 697 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,240 Speaker 1: when he gets those endorsements. We have more news about 698 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:47,399 Speaker 1: Max the Gorilla Well. 699 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 3: He was voted Newsmaker of the Year for South Africa 700 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 3: for nineteen ninety seven the Johannesburg Press Club. He was 701 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 3: twenty six years old at the time. We should mention 702 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 3: name this national gorilla hero. It's new Maker of nineteen 703 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 3: ninety seven, and they presented him a giant trophy a 704 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 3: meter high made of cake and fruit that he devoured 705 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 3: on camera like promptly right, super good photo op. 706 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,720 Speaker 1: Max went on to live at the Johannesburg Zoo as 707 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 1: a symbol of justice, a symbol that something could be 708 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 1: right in the world until the age of thirty four, 709 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: which was pretty good for a gorilla. Not ben where 710 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 1: he passed away in his sleep in two thousand and four. 711 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:32,839 Speaker 3: I want to say yeah, I believe it was from 712 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 3: cardiac arrest, which is apparently a pretty common way for 713 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:37,799 Speaker 3: elderly gorillas to go. 714 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 1: We did find a funny story about his love life. 715 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: Do you think we got time to throw that in? 716 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 3: Let's toss it in. Okay, Okay, So. 717 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,280 Speaker 1: Max the Gorilla did show up in the news for 718 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: at least one non crime related thing, non advertisement related thing. 719 00:46:54,400 --> 00:47:00,879 Speaker 1: We found a story about his love life that has 720 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:05,400 Speaker 1: there's some pretty interesting language in here. But Max's partner Lisa, 721 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,800 Speaker 1: who who he was protecting. 722 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,280 Speaker 3: He was protecting yeah from from Isaac? 723 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Max and Lisa were still together. This 724 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: was a long running relationship and uh, some journalists believed 725 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 1: that they had perhaps lost the spark because Max stopped 726 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 1: being interested in intimacy with Lisa. 727 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. There's an article from Independent Online, Max the Gorilla 728 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 3: Refuses to Mate where they talk about this issue and 729 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 3: how the gorilla scientists there at the Johannesburg Zoo, because 730 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 3: that's a job, even considered dosing old Max, possibly in 731 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 3: a gatorade equivalent to drink with some viagra integrate integate energy. 732 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,720 Speaker 3: Let us know, right, listeners, let us know how to pronounce. 733 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,279 Speaker 3: But apparently gorillas in general don't really they're not really 734 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 3: that into sex in the first place. So once the 735 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,839 Speaker 3: spark is gone, the thrill is gone, my friend, it's 736 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:04,520 Speaker 3: gone for good. 737 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. And then Max, as we said, passed away peacefully 738 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: in his sleep. That's a happy ending for him and 739 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: his widow. Then Lisa continued on for about two years. 740 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,680 Speaker 1: She had another partner, a nineteen year old named Macoco, 741 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:30,280 Speaker 1: young Buck young Buck, the Boy Toy, and Lisa passed 742 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: away in two thousand and six at the age of 743 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:39,399 Speaker 1: thirty five. She had during a surgery to determine whether 744 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: or not she had a cancer's growth. Yeah, but neither 745 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: of them died of gunshot wounds. 746 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,399 Speaker 3: That's very true. And to this day, there is a 747 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 3: statue commemorating Max the Gorilla at the Johannesburg Zoo that 748 00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,120 Speaker 3: you can go visit in his honor. 749 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 1: And thus concludes our story of Max the Gorilla. We 750 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,720 Speaker 1: found so many other amazing things. I had a really 751 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: tough time not putting in more stories of animals doing 752 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,320 Speaker 1: heroic stuff with humans. 753 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 3: I know there's a lot there, but you know, we 754 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 3: kind of we took a pretty dark turn in this 755 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,600 Speaker 3: one and really needed that context in that background, and 756 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 3: I'm glad we did. It's a little intense, but it 757 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:27,320 Speaker 3: also shows that the nineties totally historical time, my friend, Yeah, 758 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,799 Speaker 3: for more reasons than just like trapper keepers and. 759 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,760 Speaker 1: Stuff across the world, guatemal in civil war, for instance. 760 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,239 Speaker 1: You know, So we would like to thank you so 761 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,920 Speaker 1: much for spending some time with us today. We know 762 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,880 Speaker 1: this episode went a little bit long, but we wanted to. 763 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,640 Speaker 1: We wanted to explore as much as we could the 764 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 1: story behind the story, which too often gets forgotten or 765 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: relegated to a footnote in a history book. 766 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 3: And we of course would like to hear from you. 767 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,680 Speaker 1: You can find NOL, super producer, Casey and I all 768 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,839 Speaker 1: over the internet. We're on instant, We're on Facebook. Check 769 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: us out at Ridiculous Historians where you can. You can 770 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,080 Speaker 1: find us hanging out in the forums, posing and answering 771 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:09,719 Speaker 1: very strange questions. 772 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:16,320 Speaker 3: We also might be posing as other users creeping. Oh really, 773 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 3: I have a pseudo account? Yeah, did you start one? 774 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:20,759 Speaker 3: I can tell you the name though, because you'll know 775 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 3: it's me. How's your picture's board coming? Ben? Oh? Yeah, 776 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 3: well I had a vision board. Sorry, excuse me, how's 777 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 3: your vision board coming? Thank you? It's it's a it 778 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,800 Speaker 3: just keeps getting bigger. Yeah, you got a lot of vision. 779 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,040 Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's it's an ongoing effort. I think a 780 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:39,280 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historian. 781 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,319 Speaker 3: Facebook a big part of it. The Facebook group. 782 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,640 Speaker 1: I've got a picture of the Facebook group. I've got 783 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,799 Speaker 1: a picture of you and I and a helicopter, which 784 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:49,760 Speaker 1: I think could be really cool at some point. 785 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,759 Speaker 3: So we'd like to hear from you. 786 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,839 Speaker 1: What are some other examples that you remember from your 787 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: neck of the Global Woods involving an animal doing something. 788 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,399 Speaker 3: Heroic, possibly in the nineties, Possibly in the nineties, Yes, 789 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,560 Speaker 3: bonus points in the nineties, but we will be interested 790 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,319 Speaker 3: in any time period, and it may end up on 791 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 3: a future episode because I think we can make a 792 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 3: really fascinating thing. 793 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,319 Speaker 1: It might have to be a list because there are 794 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: so many, you know what, I gotta get out of here. 795 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,440 Speaker 3: I've got to trim down my list. I found like thirty. 796 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,239 Speaker 3: It's awesome memorial. Dam man. We should probably like go 797 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 3: to the lake or something and get on a boat 798 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,799 Speaker 3: and take a helicopter to a boat. Yeah, oh man, 799 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 3: let's take the ridiculous history copter, the ridicula copter. We 800 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 3: have a helipad on the roof here upon city Market 801 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:39,840 Speaker 3: that is a true story, right next to the mini golf. 802 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,880 Speaker 1: Course, next to the mini golf course and the fancy 803 00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:43,840 Speaker 1: hot dog stand. 804 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:46,279 Speaker 3: Yes, so we are going to get out of here. 805 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,399 Speaker 3: As always, thank you so much to. 806 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: Our super producer, Casey Pegram, Thank you to Alex Williams 807 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 1: who composed the. 808 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,320 Speaker 3: Track, and huge thanks as always to our top notch grade, 809 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,960 Speaker 3: a one of a kind researcher Christopher Hasiotis who hit 810 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:04,200 Speaker 3: us to the harrowing story of Max the Gorilla. See 811 00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:10,439 Speaker 3: you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 812 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,600 Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 813 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 3: your favorite shows.