1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't just stories of things we simply 2 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: don't know the answer too. Well, Hello there, and welcome 3 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe your host host. 4 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I guess we're all co hosts. Well I'm 5 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: Devin your host. Okay, all right, so we're gonna we're 6 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: just getting together one more time to solve another unsolved mystery. 7 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: This week, we're going to talk about the Hagley Wood mystery. Yeah, 8 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: it's a creepy one. A little intro here. There's an 9 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: area in the West Midlands of England. The West Midlands 10 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: is like the western part of the middle part of England, 11 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: which is like kind of abuts Wales for all of 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: those who who really care, the western part of the 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: Middle of exactly. Yeah, So anyway, it's it's a part 14 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: that's kind of just east of Wales. Anyway. In this 15 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: there's an area there known as the Black Country, which 16 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: earned his name with his dark mysterious mccab passed and 17 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: well it's not really true. It was at the heart 18 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: of the coal industry and a good part of the 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution took place there and it was still smoking 20 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: and sooity that it was said to be black by 21 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: day and read by night. So that's why I'm assuming 22 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: from fires. Yeah, you have from coal fires and furnaces 23 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: and you know, foundries and all kinds of good stuff. 24 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm sure there's a Mountain of death somewhere there. 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: Creek of Doom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Actually, um, so there's 26 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: the Mountain of the Dead in Egypt, Um Mountain of 27 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: Death in Costa Rica, of Death in Poland, Death Valley California, 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: UM Highway of Death. I think in Bolivia Valley of 29 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: Doom is a video game. Do you want me to 30 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: keep going? No? No, no, no, you're right of deaths yeah, 31 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: right in the neighborhood too. So yeah, so I right there. 32 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: Think we can say without equivocation that the Black Country 33 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: has earned this dark, creepy reputation. Okay, case solve, uh alright, 34 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: So anyway, are our saga begins? In April nineteen three, 35 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: four young lads were out poaching on the estate of 36 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: somebody named Lord cobbum In, And so there was a 37 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: patch of woods on his estate. He had a fairly 38 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: large estate, but there's a patch of woods called Hagleywood, 39 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: and they were they were looking for birds nests so 40 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: they could steal some bird's extra food because this is 41 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: wartime and rations were a little short, so you know, 42 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: they can get a little extra food here. They were 43 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: looking for anything that they could do. They were tired 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: of potatoes. Yeah, they wanted to kill some small, helpless 45 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: animals or steal some birds eggs, whatever they could protein 46 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: of some kind of yeah. Yeah. So anyway, they're looking 47 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: for birds nests in the trees of Hagley Wood and 48 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: they find this one. I don't I don't know if 49 00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: you guys saw the picture of it, well, certainly certain 50 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: posted on the website. It's it's a weird looks like, um, 51 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: what is that? It looks like something out of the 52 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: last Headless Horseman movie with Johnny depth that was in 53 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: that Ye, Johnny Depp played about Crane. Yeah, and they 54 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: had that really really was it a Tim Burton film? Yeah, 55 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: yeah it was. Yeah, it was a crazy tree at 56 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: the end, and that's what I thought of, as he 57 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: doesn't think for weird everything. It was casting with Christopher 58 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: Walkers a Headless Horseman. Yeah, he made made a credible one. 59 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: I mean, he's creepy no matter what, right exactly. Ok 60 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: So anyway, back to this tree. So they spot a 61 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: tree that looks like it's got some nests and it's 62 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: one of them climbs up the tree and finds a 63 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: large hole in the side of the tree. Looking into 64 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: the hole, he spots a skull. Yeah, like a bird skull. 65 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: He's sticking. It's an animal skull. So he grabs a 66 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: stick and he pokes a stick in and kind of 67 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: hooks it and brings it out. And surprise, surprise, how 68 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: old is this kid? You know? Actually I never never 69 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: got their ages and all the places I was looking, 70 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: and I'm guessing, I'm guessing they're probably you know, what 71 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: does every three team boy do? He grabs his stick 72 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: and he pokes it. Let's let's poke it with a stick. Yeah, 73 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it must have been turned down 74 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: in such a way that you couldn't see the face 75 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: of the skull, and you know, otherwise, you know, you're 76 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: looking at the face of a human skull. I mean, hey, 77 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: pretty its pretty obvious. So it's a human skull. Yeah. 78 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: But anyway, so they decided to put it back in 79 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: the tree, and they and they and they headed back 80 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: to town. And since they had been trespassing, they thought 81 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: they would just keep it a secret. This seems to 82 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: be kind of like a recurring theme in all of 83 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: our kind of mysterious dead things, right, Like, somebody discovers 84 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: the body and it's like, well, I don't really want 85 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: to report it, So they wait a couple of days, 86 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: and then they decided to report it. Yeah. We've talked 87 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: about this in a number of kids. Yeah, yeah, I 88 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: think it's I don't want to tell anybody I found 89 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: a body. Yeah, you know exactly, it's gonna be awkward. 90 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: That was one time I woke up from a black 91 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: houn on the body in my bedroom. So I didn't 92 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: I didn't report that one right away. In fact, I 93 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: never did. Yeah, it does. Yeah, So one of the 94 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: boys had second thoughts, and so he told his dad 95 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: about what they found. And if the little rat had 96 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: just kept his piehole shut, then we wouldn't be sitting 97 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: here wasting our time, wouldn't if it wasn't for those 98 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: darn kids. Kids. Yeah, so any way, but you know, 99 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: it's it's history now, it's something there's nothing you can 100 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: do about it. So we're stuck here in the studio 101 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: solving this mystery. Yeah, naturally, dad tells the police and 102 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: so the police and the kids come back to the 103 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: place the next day with the posse of the po 104 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: PO who look into the tree and discover yeah, and 105 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: the kids aren't lying. There's a human skull in there 106 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: and some bones, and so I'd tell yeah. They they 107 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: called in some of some heavy lifter investigators from from 108 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: the bigger the big city, like Birmingham is the largest 109 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: town nearby. One of the people they called in was 110 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: a forensic scientist named Professor jam Webster who he was 111 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: the one who actually lifted the skull out of the tree, 112 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: and he found cloth wedged in the mouth of the skull, 113 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,119 Speaker 1: so that led him to believe that there was murder 114 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: involved in this person had been had been smothered by 115 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: having cloth stuff in her mouth apparently, and so he 116 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: declared that, he said it was probably murdered, and they 117 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: declared the crime scene, which meant they had this time 118 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: to get serious now and so and so they started 119 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: start started searching the area. And there's this is one 120 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: place where there's a little bit of diversions in the stories. 121 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: As always, there's diversions and all these different versions of it. 122 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: One of the one is that the skull and a 123 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: complete skeleton were all in the tree, and another in 124 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: another version, they found bones scattered all over the place. Yeah, well, 125 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: I should say in the in the first version, the 126 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: complete skeleton except for the right hand, which had severed 127 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: and was found near remember specifically people saying they were 128 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: the hand was buried outside. The hand was buried outside 129 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: the tree, and everything else was in there. But other 130 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,119 Speaker 1: other accounts say that there were other bones also found 131 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: outside the tree, which is entirely possible. I mean, because 132 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: if the body was there for any any length of time, 133 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: animals would have gotten in there, you know, and probably 134 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: like you know, pulled out a thigh here, an armbone 135 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: there and chew. Yeah, I mean, think of a Raccoons 136 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: are not small creatures. I know, Devil loves raccoons, man, 137 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: but I mean, do you think about a raccoon getting 138 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: in there and it's it's it's bonus time. So yeah, 139 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: most likely some of the bones were scattered about by animals. Well, 140 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: unless she was like wedged so tightly in there. Well, 141 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll cover this, yeah, you know, and it 142 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: might be that she was killed by a Terraine serial 143 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: killer who chopped her into pieces and then and then 144 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: scattered all over the place that the hand was found nearby. 145 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: That was significant to some people, and we'll talk about 146 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: that a little later. They also found in the hole 147 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: they found some fragments of clothing, gold ring, apparently a 148 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: wedding ring. Also one shoe, and also some accounts say 149 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: that there was a green bottle in the tree as well, 150 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: like glass glass, green bottle. Yeah, not all the new 151 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: like a wine bottle sized wine bottle. I got the 152 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: impression there was a smaller bottle, yeah, like a type bottle. Yeah. Anyway, 153 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: So the one when they were pretty pretty well shared 154 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: they've gotten all the bones. They they bagged him up 155 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: and took him back to the professor's lab and he 156 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: reassembled the skeleton, and he drew some conclusions from his reassembly. 157 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: He concluded the body was a woman, that she was 158 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: about five feet tall and roughly thirty forty years old. 159 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: She had had a child at some point. Okay, yeah, 160 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: I guess that was something I didn't realize you could 161 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: find out from bones. But some of it was a 162 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: woman or not, No, if they had had a child 163 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: or not. I think that when the hip bones don't 164 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: they don't they change. They change when you have what 165 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: I never want to do now. Yeah, yeah, so hard 166 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: that your bones change? Yeah, okay. Next up she had 167 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: as she had a deformation in her lower jaw and 168 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: a mueller had recently been pulled, which gave them hope 169 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: that they could they could find a dentist somewhere who 170 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: could identify the person who they found. Again, I got 171 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: I gotta stop and ask, so how do they How 172 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: would you know that the moller had recently been pulled? 173 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: You know, I don't really know that. I'm guessing that. 174 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: You know, when you pull a moler out, it kind 175 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: of I think it kind of breaks up in scars. 176 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: But have you ever had a mola removed like like 177 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: wisdom teeth whatever? You know that you know, like when 178 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: they stick the augur when and the aug and they 179 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: start they start reefing on that thing and you can 180 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: hear things break, crunching and breaking in there, you know. 181 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: So are you thinking that like the bone is damaged 182 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: in the bone where, Yeah, it still hasn't entirely, that's 183 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: my guess. Yeah. I think Also the jaw bone is 184 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: pretty good at healing itself. So if there's a hole 185 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: where the mueller's like roots were, I don't know this, 186 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: This is just speculation. But doesn't that hole kind of 187 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: like get some tissue, Like doesn't it kind of steal 188 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: up a little bit? Talking about the gums over there 189 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: over the top, are you talking about just the hole 190 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: they left in the Yeah, yeah, I would think it 191 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: would see, it would seal up, there'd be some recognition 192 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: of kind of time. Yeah, so that's my best guess. Uh, 193 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: So let's see what else. There were no visible signs 194 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 1: of injury or violence on the bones. Of course, that 195 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: doesn't mean she wasn't done in violently. It just means 196 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: they didn't leave a mark on the bone, so she 197 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: could have been Yeah, no fractures, so she wasn't being 198 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: to death, you knowing like that, you know, but she's 199 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: still okay. So it could have been stabbed at death, 200 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: you know, as long as he didn't hit a bone 201 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: with a knife, you know. But he surmised that the 202 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: cause of death was suffocation due to the cloth in 203 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: her mouth, So good enough, I guess. Uh. He surmised 204 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: also the body been stuck in the hole before rigor 205 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: mortis has set in, because the hole was small, so 206 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: small that they had to have a little bit of 207 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: flexibility to work with, you know, that sort of squeeze 208 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: her in there, and so yeah, with rigor mortis, she 209 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: probably probably would have been hard to get her in 210 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: the hole. And he also lastly surmised that death had 211 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: occurred in eighteen months more or less prior to discovery 212 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: of the body. And I'm guessing that's based on the 213 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: fact that there there was some flesh and hair still. Ye. Yeah, 214 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: but you know, and I'm not sure again how you 215 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: do this. Originally I think he u he concluded that 216 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: it was it could have been up to four years prior, 217 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: and then he revised it based on I'm not sure what, 218 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: probably weather patterns and stuff, or maybe it was tree growth. 219 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: Maybe you would say, well, this tree couldn't have grown, 220 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: it would have grown more over her bodies, her bones 221 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: would have been more incorporated into the tree. They would 222 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: have taken a long time, the bones, that would take 223 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: a long time. Sure, But no, I mean, I guess, 224 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, if four years is a reasonable a lot 225 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: of time for the for you to see some a 226 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: little bit of that, like the whole being smaller than 227 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: she would have fit into or something. Maybe I don't know, 228 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: or maybe not. Maybe he was just totally making things up. 229 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: It's I believe the term is educated guests. Yeah, yeahs 230 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: very educated. Guess yeah, I think you know, and you 231 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: never know it might he might have made that judgment 232 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: from the extent of deterioration of the cloth because she 233 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: was wearing clothing. Maybe maybe that was a better or 234 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: maybe the amount of corrosion or tarnishing on the gold ring, 235 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you could make that. Yeah, there's 236 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: all kinds of ways to find clues how buried the 237 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: bones were, like how you know, especially if they found 238 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: any of them in the dirt, you know, those deteriorates 239 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: how much or anything like that. Yeah, that's a tough one, 240 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: but okay. So he also there were fragments of clothing 241 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: and as I said earlier, there was a shoe found 242 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: in the hole with her um. So he was able 243 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: to put together a description of her outfit that she 244 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: was wearing. It's the time of death. And so at 245 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: this point they tried to figure out who she was, 246 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: and they figured that probably she was somewhere in the 247 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: area they wouldn't have too much trouble finding here. Well, 248 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: guess again, first off, they've got the most obvious thing 249 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: to do is the dental records, because she had a 250 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: tooth pulled, and she had a she had a messed 251 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: up lower jaw. So they took that information to every 252 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: dentist in the region and it was all a dead end. Nobody, 253 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: nobody had any records to identify and by yeah, so 254 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: they checked her clothes, the clothing that she wore was 255 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: and of course, again it's some versions of this story 256 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: which I don't find believable, but some versions say that 257 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: all the labels have been removed from the close yeah 258 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: the woman, Hey, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, um. But now, 259 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: actually they they were able to find labels in your clothes, 260 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 1: and they were from fairly common brands and and then 261 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: really didn't provide any real good leads to her shoe. 262 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 1: That they found was that was a somewhat unique shoe, 263 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: and that gave them hope. And they actually went to 264 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: the time and trouble to track down every all but 265 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: four of the pairs of these shoes that have been sold. 266 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: They tracked down all of them. Don't ask me how 267 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: they managed to do this. Nonetheless, they didn't find out 268 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: who this person was through the shoes. Yeah, I know, 269 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: I know, so frustrating frustrating investigation for our po PO. 270 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I forgot to finding the murder. They can't 271 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: even figure out who she was. So anyway, in December three, 272 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: somebody put graffiti on a wall in Birmingham. Birmingham is 273 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: a nearby city, the nearest industrial city. Um, somebody wrote, 274 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: who put Luebella in the witch elm Hagley Wood on 275 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: a wall in the city and so this, uh yeah, 276 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: that's probably the oddest part of this whole thing to 277 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: somebody searched graffitiing and like a couple of months later 278 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: to right about over six months. Yeah no, I mean, 279 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: I mean to continue for decades. But anyway, they gave 280 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: a name to the corpse. Anyway, so I did that 281 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: yield any results? Did they start like searching for every 282 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: Luebella in the area. I think they were looking at 283 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: missing person's reports persons called Luebella or bella or whatever. 284 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, again, you know, dead end. I wonder if 285 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: lubella was slang for something in the local local innacular. 286 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: It seems like that would have been recorded though, don't 287 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: you think. Well, but if it's if it's something that 288 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: in the town somebody has randomly started using this name 289 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: to assign to some kind of person, and it just 290 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: it kind of dies out. You know, there's there's all 291 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: kinds of fads with words. Sure, but as a as 292 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: a diligent police officer, you're writing your police report and 293 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: somebody writes this thing on there, and you say, you know, 294 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: this graffiti pertains to the case. And by the way, 295 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: lubella is slang for loose woman. Yeah, you don't know, 296 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: maybe you would think, I just I just wonder. Yeah, 297 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: I have no idea. I think I've heard that Luebella 298 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: was not an uncommon name in the Midlands, so somebody 299 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: probably said that somebody. It might have been somebody who 300 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: actually knew who she was. That phrase a local term 301 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: for what we would now say Jane Doe. Yeah it 302 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: might be. But but anyway, so now now Bella had 303 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: a name, which is Bella, and that's that the police 304 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: were interested, you know, because this guy called her out 305 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: but called her by name, and so the police thought 306 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: that perhaps the graffiti artist knew something about the case, 307 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: and so they put the word out that they wanted 308 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: to have a word with him. Surprisingly enough, he never 309 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: came forward. Shocking. Yeah, oh hey, whoever did the graffiti. 310 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, we'd like to talk to you. We want 311 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: to talk to you. Um, it has nothing to do 312 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: with the graffiti. This case, we probably won't arrest you. 313 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah right, well we'll arrest you for the graffiti. Yeah, yeah, alright. 314 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: So a lot of theories, a lot and rumors were 315 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: flying around the area. Obviously, this is a very very 316 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: creepy murder abound a good people that Willie's. So the 317 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: first one was it was witchcraft. It was a professor 318 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: named Margaret Murray wrote a book about this murder and 319 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: another murder that happened about five miles away, not too 320 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: much after this, and she she claimed that she had 321 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: been done in a sort of black magic execution. Um. 322 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: She said that an inner book that you can trap 323 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: a witch's spirit and stop her from continue to do 324 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: evil bad deeds with her spirit beyond the dead, and 325 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: you can trap it by stuffing her into a witch 326 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: elm tree. And also you can you can sever the 327 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: right hand of a dead criminal and the hand becomes 328 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: a very powerful talisman, the hand of power, the hand 329 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: of power, which is in all kinds of fantasy books 330 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: and stuff. It's always the hand of power, which and 331 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've found this near research. But 332 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: the hand of power you always heard about, it's a candle. 333 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: So it's basically from about the midfoe arm up or 334 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: maybe the wrist up and they you basically burned the 335 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: fingers like candles, and they're supposed to have some kind 336 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: of mystical power and you can do things. It's a 337 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: that's a very common trope sting. Yeah. The problem I 338 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: have with that theory as well. If you've just acquired 339 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: this powerful talisman, why don't you just drop it at 340 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: the base of the tree and walk away? It was 341 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: too powerful? Maybe maybe that was it there was Yeah, 342 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: maybe maybe after they realized what they've done, they were 343 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: kind of grossed out. Or maybe it's just another way 344 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: to like strip that which of the power. Right you 345 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: cut off the right hand, so you strip her over 346 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: power even more and then you don't really need it, 347 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: you don't want it. Maybe you're not a witch covenant. 348 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: Maybe you're just trying to get rid of her which 349 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: that lives in your area. Yeah, that's a good point, 350 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: but but again, you know, I would I would take 351 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: that hand and I would bury it at least three 352 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: ft deep. Yeah, Well, the other funny thing about it is, uh, 353 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: I think you had mentioned this in there, Joe, Is 354 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: that the the whole hand of a thief for murder, 355 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: which is one of the two, wasn't it. I've I've 356 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: seen accounts where he'll say it's the left hand, it's 357 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: or it's the right hand, or it's both. So it's 358 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: funny that she says it's scifically that hand because it 359 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: just meets up with the evidence. Maybe it depends on 360 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: whether the witch is right handed or left handed. Yeah, 361 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: so yeah, and a lot of Middle Eastern cultures they 362 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: tend to cut off a hand. That's like the punishment 363 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: for a thief. And I think usually they cut off 364 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: the left hand, the non dominant hand first, and then 365 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: they cut off the that's reasonable, yeah, if you keep stealing. Yeah, 366 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: you don't keep stealing after that from guests on. People 367 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: probably do after you get the second hand taken. Oh, 368 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: with their teeth maybe on the other hand. Yeah, Yeah. 369 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: A problem with that when you think about it, is 370 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: that like, after you've had your left hand chopped off, 371 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: then it's it's probably gonna be harder to find work 372 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: and you're gonna have to resort to steal. Yeah, yeah. So, 373 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: and she also tied tied to her murder. And I 374 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: said previously, there was another murder of a man not 375 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: too long after this, about twenty five miles southeast in 376 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: a village called Lower Quentin. A guy was sound pinned 377 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: to the ground by a pitchfork, which is kind of 378 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: kind of creepy, but again that's not exactly evidence of 379 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: witchcraft though. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, she she eventually uh 380 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: sort of used up her credibility and was found to 381 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: be a hack. So it was nonetheless that that theory 382 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: was very popular with the public and the press for 383 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: a long time. That's sensational. It was pretty sensational. Hell yeah, yeah. 384 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: This next theory is one more credible. She was a 385 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: German spy. Yeah. Yeah. So the first ten years after 386 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: the body was found, a letter was sent to the 387 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: Wolverhampton Expressing Star by somebody who called herself Anna Comma Cleverly. 388 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: Cleverly is a village about ten miles northwest of Hagley Woods. Yeah, 389 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: and so she was not too far far away. She 390 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: claimed that she knew people involved, that they had had 391 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: formed essentially a spy ring operating in the West Midlands, 392 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: and they were right. What they were doing was mostly 393 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: identifying munitions factories for the LOOFTWAFFA so they could come 394 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: in and bomb them and stuff. Yeah, goog war time, Yeah, objective. Uh. 395 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: So this little spire ring was composed of a British officer, 396 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: some Dutch guy, and a foreign trapeze artist and other 397 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: accounts he was a music hall artist. I'm gonna go 398 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: with music hall artist actually, because that's a little more believable. 399 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: Trapeze artist. Yeah. So, anyway, the British officer, Dutch guy 400 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: and and the other guy were in this little spy ring, uh, 401 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: and they were Bella happened to fall in with these 402 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: guys somehow. She was supposedly a Dutch woman who had 403 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: gotten involved and had learned to MutS and so she 404 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: had to be murdered, so was Yeah, so she was 405 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: murdered by the Dutch guy and the music hall artist 406 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: in Hagleywood and stuffed in the tree. This is a 407 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: little vague because you know, it's like, seriously, you know, 408 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly why what she found out why 409 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: she had to be murdered, but you know, it's the 410 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: only four and if you're a spy, nobody's gonna know. Yeah, well, yeah, 411 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: so anyway, but it doesn't really say the particularly doesn't 412 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: really say that she's a spy, but it seems like 413 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: she's she's a Dutch woman from overseas, who which means 414 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: she's a spy could have been a spy. A Dutch 415 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: woman from overseas, that means sy. Alright, So this person 416 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: add out only I did one person by name, who 417 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: was the British officer who had conveniently died in nineteen 418 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: forty two, supposedly insane. Uh so she couldn't did not 419 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: name any any of the other two. So even though 420 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: the police tracked her down and questioned her that she 421 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: didn't really provide any good leads as far as the 422 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: British officer that she named. But the guy died insane 423 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty two, Well, you don't usually go from 424 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: sane to insane in like a year's time. Well, and 425 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: and here's the issue. If this guy died in nineteen 426 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: well he died nineteen forty two. Yeah, she supposedly had 427 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: been dead for eighteen months, is the approximation. Yeah, it 428 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: means that she would have been murdered in nine Okay, alright, 429 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: the timeline works, Yeah, it does. And we don't know 430 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: how long he was if he was insane. I'm assuming 431 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 1: he was locked up in a sanitarium, and we of 432 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: course probably don't know how long that was. So yeah, 433 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: I don't know how long it took him from going 434 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: from being rational and lucid to be coming insane, having 435 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: having to go to liney Ben. Yeah, I know. Maybe 436 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: if he had to watch her die or killed, that 437 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: could have been pushed him over the edge. Yeah, anything, 438 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: maybe he was somehow involved in her dad, but he wasn't. 439 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: It was a Dutch dude and the musical artist. Yeah yeah, yeah. 440 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: So anyway, in actually following with his spy theme, a 441 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: writer named Donald McCormick published a book called Murder by Witchcraft. 442 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: It said that she was a Nazi spy and occultist. Yeah, 443 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: let's just marry both these things right together. I know, no, so, 444 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: but it's interesting from what I haven't actually gone and 445 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: read his book, but from what I've read about some 446 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: reason of it, he doesn't really claim any occult element 447 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: in the whole thing, other though she was an accultist, 448 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: so I don't really get that. But her name was 449 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: Clara Bella McCormick. The author claimed that he had seen 450 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: records on her and that she had indeed parachuted into 451 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: the West Midlands and she was never hurt from again, 452 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: she just got stuck in the tree. I could have 453 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: actually just wanted right into the tree, like like one 454 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: of those cartoons, right, just like, Oh I got stuck 455 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: in a whole some really bad luck, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, 456 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: that's where Beatie Cooper is too, right, Beatie Cooper. Yeah, 457 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: he just got stuck in a tree. Yeah. There there 458 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: is theories the dB Cooper did get stuck in a tree. 459 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: He just got stuck in a tree. I think he 460 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: got impaled on a big doug for yeah, man telling 461 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: you it happens all the time, sense Yeah, so yeah, anyway, 462 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 1: so yeah, maybe she parachuted directly into the tree and 463 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, don't tastco don't collect the two other bucks. Yeah, Ok, 464 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: all right, I'm just gonna put the kibosh on that 465 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: one right now, because if she parachuted directly into the tree, 466 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: the parachute would have been on her. Where's your parachute, 467 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: where's your gear? Yeah? Exactly exactly, So she was parachuting 468 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: with magic. Yeah. Well, one author actually said that it's 469 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: it's possible that if if she parachutes directly industry and 470 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: I'm not supporting this idea. So somebody who found the 471 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: parachute would have just because there are a shortage of 472 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: things like cloth in those days, two people would have 473 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: actually taken it and just you know, cut it up 474 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: and made it in made it into stuff, made her. Yeah, 475 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: he would have had some stuff on her too. And 476 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,239 Speaker 1: so because maybe somebody stole that too, or you know, 477 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't I don't buy this sery 478 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: at all, because I mean, number one, the professors I 479 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: said earlier, he reconstructed the outfit that she was wearing. 480 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: She wasn't exactly wearing a parachute, and the enemy territory 481 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: clothing she was wearing, she was wearing a dress. I 482 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: feel I should make it very clear to our listeners 483 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: that I am not, in seriousness suggesting actually parsuted directly 484 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: into a small hole. I kind of like the idea 485 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: that kind I kind of like the idea. You know, 486 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: it says it's a big dramatic spy movie and she's 487 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: and then and then there's just rolling credit. Uh, take 488 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: that Nazi spy okay. So anyway, an article appeared in 489 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: The Independent, a UK paper in March two thousand thirteen, 490 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: with the headline is this the Bella in the Witch 491 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: unraveling the mystery of the skull found in a tree 492 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: trunk and they've got a picture of a woman. What 493 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: happened is that German spy did come into England in 494 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: he was captured by the Home Guard after right aft 495 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: to be parachuted into the country. When he was taken 496 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: to m I five who interrogated him and they found 497 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: a photo of a woman on him. This this woman 498 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: right here, and it was kind of kind of actually 499 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: a postcard kind of format. She'd written something in English 500 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: on the back. By the way, she's she's a German. 501 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: This person, the man, the spy, was named Joseph Jacobs. 502 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: And so the woman, he said, was Clara. I'm probably 503 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: gonna mangle this here goes Bourel Clara. So anyway, according 504 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: to according to Jacobs, she was a German singer and actress, 505 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: and apparently they had met in Germany and hung out 506 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,959 Speaker 1: and been lovers and everything, and supposedly she was had 507 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: been recruited also spy for the Germans, and she was 508 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: going to parachute into Britain and joined him after he 509 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: got established in radio back home and said that that 510 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: he'd made it okay. He said that he didn't really 511 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: think she'd becoming since he had been captured and hadn't 512 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,479 Speaker 1: made radio contact, Especially when you think about it, I mean, 513 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: sending her in after he's obviously been captured. She's already 514 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: been blown, her cover is already already shot. Yeah, yeah, So, 515 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: I mean, in some respects, she would have been a 516 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: good Nazi spike. According to some account she had She 517 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: had actually spent two years in Britain in the West Midlands, 518 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: so she knew the area. She spent that time singing 519 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: in halls and stuff like that, which is good back 520 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: in those days before they had things like CDs and 521 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, so she was the music hall singer. Well 522 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 1: that was That was something that made me wonder, is 523 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: that that does kind of fit in with Anna's letter 524 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: and his and his revelations. So instead of her this 525 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: clear up person becoming involved with the spy ring, maybe 526 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: she was just the third person to the spy ring 527 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: and instead of I could see that, Yeah, that it's 528 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: just like a bunch of different kind of family stories right, say, 529 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: you know, crazy Grandpa says, oh no, yeah, there was 530 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: the spy ring that was here, and you know he's 531 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: got his back a little muddel. Yeah, yeah, maybe I 532 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: don't know. So anyway, Yeah, she spent two years working 533 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: in that in that area. She spoke English very well, 534 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: she was familiar with the area, so she would have 535 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: been a good spy in that and that in those respects, 536 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: although there was actually In another website from Joseph Jacob's granddaughter, 537 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: she says that she founded the National Archives when their 538 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: interrogations of Jacobs that he believed that she had never 539 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: been to England before, So again a little bit of 540 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: a contradiction there. So on the downside of her utility 541 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: as as a Nazi agent, she would if she had 542 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: actually spent that time in England two years singing, she 543 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: would have performed in front of a lot of people, 544 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: and who would know her to be a German singer. 545 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: And the odds of being spotted on the street just 546 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: by some random dude, we're fairly good. Did they release 547 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: that photo though of her? Now? Yeah? So what what? Well? 548 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: I think I think what just getting at is prior 549 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: to the war having broken out, people would have seen 550 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: her and said, oh that's that's, that's that German ship. 551 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: What is I remember? And oh yeah, and she was. 552 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: She was a traveling German and wait, what is a 553 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: German doing in this country at this time where Jacobs 554 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: was mistaken or misled and believed that she had never 555 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: been to England, but in fact he was. She was 556 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: a fluent English speaker and maybe could pass for an 557 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: English woman, except again if if she acquired her English 558 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: skills by hanging out as a as a German in England, 559 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: then she would be known too many people as a 560 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,239 Speaker 1: German in England. Well, again, it depends on where she 561 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: was at. She burned in London and then went to 562 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: West Elm or whatever, or not West Elm, whatever this 563 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: place they were talking about is. You know, she could 564 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: have been anywhere else. It's a very small community, so 565 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: would be easy just to go to a town that's 566 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: fifty miles away and never see yet people aren't quite 567 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: as mobile in those days. Yeah, And additionally, you know 568 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: she could say, oh, yeah, you know, I'm moving on 569 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: to my next place soon and go and get murdered 570 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, somebody has figured her out, so 571 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: she says all, I'm leaving town. Nobody thinks anything of it, 572 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: you know. And then a year and a half later, 573 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: I don't know that, you know, anybody would think of it. 574 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: I don't know it. It's hard to say what kind 575 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: of counterintelligence was happening, right, So anyway, back to the 576 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: luckless Joseph Jacobs. He uh, he was actually cooperative with 577 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: the with m I five, but they felt that he 578 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't have any value. Apparently the Home Guard wasn't too 579 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: secretive and the fact that they had nabbed him and 580 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: so um, the word of his capture had gotten out, 581 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: so they couldn't really successfully turn him. So they did 582 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: what they did back in those days. They executed him. Yeah. Yeah, 583 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: they executed him by firing squad in the tower. Yeah. Well, 584 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: that's that's the way they did it with the You 585 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: canna either cooperate or we're gonna shoot you. And in 586 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: his case, sadly, he was willing to co operate apparently, 587 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: but they shot him anyway at the Tower of London, 588 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: in the Tower of London that he wasn't he was 589 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: actually the last person to be executed in the Tower 590 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: of London was Yeah, I remember that. I do remember 591 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: seeing his parachuting gear in the Tower of London. It's 592 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: actually on display. But I thank you for I never 593 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: made the connection when I was doing the research. I 594 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: never saw that he was the last person. But did 595 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: they have this picture? They didn't have that picture, but 596 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: they have all of his gear. Uh. And yeah, if 597 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, I think all of his gear was 598 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: painted white like he was going to drop into a 599 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: snowy landscape. But it wasn't. He just stood out like 600 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: a sword thumb and I think he got hurt. Way 601 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: he landed. Bad luck, yeah, very bad intin this time 602 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: of the year. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah yeah, So anyway, 603 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: poor guy got his But anyway his He has a 604 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: granddaughter whose name is Giselle Jacobs. So she has a 605 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: website devoted to the history his history. The same photo 606 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: of Clara about bau Earle that he saw in the 607 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: Telegraph article, uh is also on her site, but it's uncropped, 608 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: and it tells it a little bit different story because Bella, 609 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: as as we know, was five feet tall from the 610 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: very small But when you look at at this photograph 611 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: with the young cropped where you can see her legs 612 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: and everything, does she looked like she's five feet five eights. 613 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: She looks like a very tall and she may not 614 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: actually be because oftentimes with like the weight to height 615 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: ratio of the olden days, but she's definitely not five 616 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: feet She's at least five five I would say. Yeah. 617 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: And if you look at the proportion of her head 618 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: to her shoulders, for example, I mean she was five 619 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: feet tall, that means well, no, even even taking an 620 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: account shoulder pads, I mean, if she was five feet 621 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: tall or had to be the size of a cantalope. 622 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, so it's this person, this Clara Burrow, cannot 623 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: be Bella in my opinion, so we solve that mystery anyway, 624 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: take that Independent UK. Yeah, yeah, she u. Giselle Jacobs 625 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: also had She apparently delved into the National Archives to 626 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: get a lot of this information. So she got information 627 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: about not only Joseph Jacobs and Clara, but she also 628 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: got some information on another German advers by named Carol Richter, 629 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: who had known them both back in Germany, and according 630 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: to his reminiscence of Clara, he remembered her being very 631 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: tall for a while, so supporting what you've seen in 632 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: the photo. Okay, yeah, yeah. Conclusion. Uh this Clara Barrel 633 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: and sorry I keep mangling your name and Bella were 634 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: not the same person. Yeah, and I would say I 635 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: would say also Bella could have been a spibe. This 636 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,479 Speaker 1: kind of shoots the hell out of the spy theory 637 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: in my opinion, I don't think there's any reason to 638 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: believe that she was a spy. I think that they're 639 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: probably more mundane. Reason is somebody, for some reason murderer 640 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: and stuffed her in that tree. It's a weird way 641 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: to get rid of a body. Yeah. No, one also 642 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: dat another layer of fund of this whole thing. Her 643 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 1: skeleton wasn't missing, So Professor J. M. Webster skeleton, Bella 644 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: skeletons is gone. I took it. So he took it 645 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: back to his lab. Professor Webster took it to his 646 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: lab and game, and then he later gave it to 647 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: a friend. Yeah, yeah, you hold this for me. You 648 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: had a friend that was really into D and D 649 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: and he wanted some props. Now actually, now he had 650 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: a friend at Birmington or excuse me, Birmingham University Medical School. Uh, 651 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: and so he gave the skeleton to him for further testing. 652 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: But somehow they managed to misplace the skeleton. Yeah, well, 653 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: and that's that's the kind of thing that feels conspiracy 654 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,919 Speaker 1: theories and stuff like that, don't you think skeletons? Yeah, 655 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure that that just lit a fire right under this. 656 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: She must have been a spy and they got rid 657 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: of her bones too, so that nobody could prove that 658 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,439 Speaker 1: she was a spy or Yeah, I mean that's just 659 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: the way. That's that's that's that kind of silly logic. 660 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: I mean, they don't really need to get rid of 661 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: her bones to do that. In fact, you know, if 662 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: she had been a spy, I mean, I you know, 663 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,399 Speaker 1: she if she jumped into the control parachuted in. There's 664 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: no dental records, there's no idea, there's no way to 665 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: identify this person. Why would you even go to the 666 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: bother of hiding the body, you know, if she had 667 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: been a spy, because if you know she's a spy 668 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: and you say I found a spy, now you can 669 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: say that, but you can just basically stabbord of death, 670 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: leave everybody to be found anywhere, and there's gonna be 671 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: no trail of guilt leading back to you because nobody 672 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: knows who she is. And if they can't identify her, 673 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: how are they going to identify any any of her associates. 674 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: Stuffing her in the tree is kind of indicative of 675 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 1: somebody fearing being caught. It does say, you know, that's 676 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: the behavior of someone who knows that they can get 677 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: in big trouble for doing this. Is let's hide the evidence. Yeah, 678 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: and you know that's I think the thing, right, we've 679 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit, is like it's that's 680 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: the big thing, that's the big question mark on this 681 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: is that she That's that all leads to her being 682 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: a local woman, or at least being not far from home, 683 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: and you know, maybe within fifty miles or something. It's 684 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 1: not like she was thousands of miles from home. It's 685 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: just so weird that nobody, you know, she has a deformity, 686 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: she's small, she's often we've got a child old, which 687 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: means and she had a wedding ring, which means she 688 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: had a husband. All of these things totally point to 689 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: somebody knowing who she is. Well. The other thing about 690 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: Britain at that time is during the war, it wasn't 691 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: uncommon for people in London, say, to send their wife 692 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: to the country because it was safer because the loof 693 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: offa we're targeting London proper. So honey, go stay in 694 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:37,439 Speaker 1: the country at you know, aunt Edna's house and you'll 695 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: be safe there. You're less likely to get bombed. And 696 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stay here and do whatever he's got to 697 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 1: do here. It could be that she had just gotten 698 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: there and something happened. Could be she was traveling to 699 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 1: that location and somebody found her and didn't know her 700 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: but just said, you know, I probably shouldn't leave this 701 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 1: body hanging around. Yeah, sort of like you know, a 702 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: killer rapist kind of person. It's not like Sariah Killer's 703 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: had never existed until the Yeah, and I was going 704 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: to say, is I know the rape theory is one 705 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: that's out there, that somebody raped her and then realized 706 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: they were in trouble and then followed up by murdering. 707 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: But then what about the right hand? Yeah, that's the well, 708 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: I don't know that. I don't want to buy into 709 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: that it was necessarily cut off. Yeah, it wasn't necessarily 710 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: I I will go with that it came off of 711 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: her body, But I don't know that that happened pre 712 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: mortem and not post mortem. Was something and some you 713 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: know critter got in there and was snacking at it. 714 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: And it's like we talked about with uh with the 715 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: sailors sea feet. You know, there's what's where a joint is, 716 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: where things are weakest and come apart the easiest. True. Yeah, yeah, 717 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: so okay, okay, that's what I think. It is probably 718 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,399 Speaker 1: more of a probably more of a random crime like that. 719 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: Hagleywood is actually right next to a road. Um, so 720 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: if you were going to stop somewhere and you know, 721 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: murder somebody and get rid of the body, you know, 722 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: it would be a convenient place to do it. Anyway, 723 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: back to the graffiti. Um, the this mysterious graffiti in 724 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: various forms kept a peering for many decades. On in 725 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: August on the estate of Lord Cobham, the hapless Lord 726 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: Cobham whose people won't stay the hell office property. So, uh, 727 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: there's a two two hundred year old Stowe obelisk on 728 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: the Hagley Hall of State and it had been tagged 729 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: with graffiti. And the same thing who put Bella in 730 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: the Witch. I couldn't tell from the done in chalk. Yeah, 731 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: from this one it could have. It didn't look spray painted. 732 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: It looks It looked to me like it was brush 733 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 1: painted or perhaps yeah, it looked at me like I 734 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: know it here old monument. Anyway, Yeah, Lord Cobham is 735 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: probably like contemplating some sort of like barbed wire electrified fish. 736 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: That trouble. Let's trouble and you have enormous estates like that. 737 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: It is keeping people off of it hard. Anyway. That 738 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: was the last known instance of graffiti until yesterday, when 739 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: the same mysterious message was found spray painted on a 740 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: wall in downtown Portland's Okay, okay, I'm lying about that. 741 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: So anyway, there you go. Another another unsolved mystery solved, 742 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: well not quite, but at least we've cleared up that 743 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: that little bit of muck that the Independent UK put 744 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: in there about this this clab from the photo. Yeah yeah, yeah, 745 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: Now that wasn't her. I wonder if that was convenient 746 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: cropping on their part. It must have been, because yeah, 747 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 1: you can't look at the full size photo and take 748 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: this is a five ft tall woman. You really can't. Yeah, Okay, 749 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: so anyway, that's it. I hope you europe you guys 750 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: are happy that we sold another mystery, so you can 751 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,240 Speaker 1: sleep well tonight. So Anyway, if you want to see 752 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: any of the links that are involved that it related 753 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: to this story, you can find them on our website, 754 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can also 755 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook. Find us also on iTunes, and 756 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: if you find us on iTunes, you can down it 757 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: all you want, but please stop, leave us a rating, 758 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: maybe leave a remark or to a little a little comment. 759 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: We like that stuff, Yeah we do, it's true. Yeah. 760 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: You can also find us on stitcher. Oh and by 761 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: the way, if you if you're like say the graffiti 762 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: artist or maybe the murderer, we'd love to hear from you. 763 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: Please set us an email at Thinking Sideways podcast at 764 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. Okay, well, so we do want a 765 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: little bit of listener feedback here. We did get some comments, Devin, 766 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 1: would you like to reause the comments? Well, sure, it's 767 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: from Jenna. Jenna, who has been a listener for a while. 768 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: She's left us a couple of comments, but she just 769 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: said that she I was on the sailorsh See Feet episode. 770 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: She said that she really liked the topic, but she 771 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: hoped that if we had short topics that we would 772 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 1: do like a couple of stories to make a full 773 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,919 Speaker 1: hour because we were really good at helping her through 774 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: her boring work days. So take that into consideration. We'll 775 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 1: see what we can you. Yeah, I don't know how 776 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: we would manage that. We talked about how much we 777 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: hate people who like, you know, put together three of 778 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: the episodes and the best of yeah that. Yeah, so 779 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: we would have to figure out how to do that. 780 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: We never know exactly how long these things are gonna come. Yeah, 781 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: Sometimes we think it's going to be a short one 782 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: and end up being we just drone on endlessly. God, well, 783 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: we'll actually probably start throwing some filler into some of 784 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: the shorter ones and maybe some commercials to Alright, Jenna, 785 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: thanks so much for the comment, and thanks so much 786 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: for listening to us. We love the fact that we're 787 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: being appreciated by somebody at least. Okay, let's get back 788 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: to what we were talking about. And one last thing 789 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: before we go, I want to give a shout out 790 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 1: the big thanks to Stephanie, our listener who suggested the 791 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: Hagleywood's story to us. Thank you very much, Stephanie, and 792 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: please feel free to send us more suggestions in the future. 793 00:42:55,200 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: Love those suggestions. Alright, that's it. Another mystery solved a 794 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: good night everybody but guys. Who did put bella in 795 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: which Elm