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Speaker 1: Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I
Speaker 1: am Joe, joined as always by Steve and and we've
Speaker 1: got another cool mystery to talk about this week. We're
Speaker 1: going to talk about the very strange death of prosecutor
Speaker 1: Jonathan Luna. Yeah, yeah, interesting case, this one. It really
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a twisty turney one for what appears
Speaker 1: to be so simple on the outside. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: still confounding people. Fifteen years later. The case is still open.
Speaker 1: It's still a reward out for information. Before I get
Speaker 1: into our story that I want to just give a
Speaker 1: shout out to our listeners. Several people suggested this, including
Speaker 1: Robert Stan, Judith and Monique and probably a few others.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, we've had it on our radar for a
Speaker 1: long time here at tsph Q. So let's start our story.
Speaker 1: Our story begins on the morning of Thursday, December four,
Speaker 1: two thousand three, five thirty am, Jonathan Luda, federal prosecutor,
Speaker 1: was found dead in a ditch in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 1: just south of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. His body was faced
Speaker 1: down in a very small creek. He had been stabbed
Speaker 1: thirty six times with a small knife and also had
Speaker 1: what was described as a traumatic wound on the right
Speaker 1: side of his head. So, okay, there we go. We
Speaker 1: got our body. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. Before we start
Speaker 1: telling all the great gory details, I want to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about Jonathan Luna. He was thirty eight
Speaker 1: years old, an assistant U S Attorney at the Baltimore,
Speaker 1: Maryland office. He was married. His wife was a doctor.
Speaker 1: They had been married for ten years. They had two kids.
Speaker 1: They had a townhouse in a suburb just southwest of Baltimore,
Speaker 1: and Luna was actually kind of from humble beginnings. He
Speaker 1: was born and raised in the South Bronx, New York,
Speaker 1: kind of a tough neighborhood. And but he was always
Speaker 1: kind of vocation into school unlike a lot of his classmates,
Speaker 1: and got himself through law school past the bar, had
Speaker 1: several different attorney jobs until you got this. What I
Speaker 1: have heard is a really good job at the U. S.
Speaker 1: Attorney's Office. Apparently it's it's a considered to be a
Speaker 1: great opportunity, pretty high at the ladder it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he'd done well for himself considering where he came from.
Speaker 1: So he's been doing that job for several years. But
Speaker 1: unfortunately it all came to it end. On the morning
Speaker 1: of December four, two thousand three, Jonathan Lena's body was
Speaker 1: found behind a well drilling business. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: name them because poor guys, they probably got enough phone
Speaker 1: calls about this one. I'm gonna I'm not but that
Speaker 1: they were on lookated on Dry Tavern Road, which is
Speaker 1: less than a thousand feet south of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, uh,
Speaker 1: and just on the eastern edge of the town of Denver, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: Tire tracts indicated that Luda had driven onto the property
Speaker 1: and passed the building, parked behind the building for a
Speaker 1: little period of time, and then from there the car
Speaker 1: was driven further west to the end of the site
Speaker 1: and into this sort of cricks last ditch at the
Speaker 1: rear of the property. And they call it a creek,
Speaker 1: but you know, and I guess it is a very
Speaker 1: tiny little creek. And it wasn't as if the car
Speaker 1: had driven into the just kind of tipped over the
Speaker 1: edge and front stopped, front tires kind of went over
Speaker 1: the edge. Yeah, the engine was still running. The car
Speaker 1: was not you know, wrecked or anything like that. And
Speaker 1: then Jonathan Luna's body was found below the car, faced
Speaker 1: down in the water. Driver's side door and the fender
Speaker 1: were smeared with blood. There was blood inside the car,
Speaker 1: including some on the floor on the back seat of
Speaker 1: the car, a fair amount from like a pool of
Speaker 1: blood back there, yeah yea uh. And the blood in
Speaker 1: the back seat, of course, led law enforcement to wonder
Speaker 1: if perhaps Luna had been abducted, maybe forced to lay
Speaker 1: down in the back of the car for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe not, we'll see. Um, he was well dressed.
Speaker 1: He was dressed in a business suit, tie, black overcoat.
Speaker 1: His wallet was still in his pocket. There were twenty
Speaker 1: dollar bills strewn about the inside of the car. Uh
Speaker 1: So robbery did not appear to be a motive in
Speaker 1: this particular crime. But it did, and I frankly look
Speaker 1: like a murder. Yeah. Although oddly, when the autopsy results
Speaker 1: came back, it turned out that Jonathan Luna had died
Speaker 1: from drowning and not from being stabbed thirty six times,
Speaker 1: which is kind of odd when you think about it.
Speaker 1: But you can. You can drown in an inch of water.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's possible, and this is an example of it. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, he would have died of his wounds probably,
Speaker 1: it was just the water got him first. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: was gonna say, it's pretty easy to drown when you've
Speaker 1: been stabbed so much that you're just dying from good
Speaker 1: point that too, if you're just totally passed out, you've
Speaker 1: lost so much blood and you're just laying face down
Speaker 1: in a creek, pretty easy way to drown. That's a
Speaker 1: good point. Well, so, how did he get to that point,
Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. The last time, the last
Speaker 1: night he was seen alive. The night before December three,
Speaker 1: he was at home working. He'd been prosecuting a drug
Speaker 1: trafficking case, and on the third day of the trial,
Speaker 1: he had decided to kind of plea agreement with the defendants.
Speaker 1: There were two of them in this case. He was
Speaker 1: writing up these agreements, one for each, so you can
Speaker 1: have them ready in court. The next morning, he left
Speaker 1: us how us around eleven PM and went into the office. Uh.
Speaker 1: Live very far away, not that far away now, pretty quick.
Speaker 1: I mean, actually he was really close to a major
Speaker 1: road free with slash freeway that dumped out right downtown
Speaker 1: near his office. Uh. And then after that he left
Speaker 1: his office at p M. He left his glasses and
Speaker 1: his cell phone on his desk, which is considered odd
Speaker 1: by a lot of people at work. At work. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: it's believed that he needed his glasses for driving, although
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how badly he needed his glasses for driving. Apparently,
Speaker 1: like I see that actually some driving that night, and
Speaker 1: apparently he did just fine, So I don't think he
Speaker 1: needed him all that bad. It might have been like
Speaker 1: some My wife wears glasses, but she doesn't need them
Speaker 1: all the time, but she really likes to have her
Speaker 1: glasses at night because it helps cut down the glare
Speaker 1: and and that and you know, makes it easier to
Speaker 1: understand road signs. But she can still drive as if
Speaker 1: she was you know. It's not as if he was
Speaker 1: blind as a bat without that. No, no, exactly. I
Speaker 1: mean I I don't have to wear my glasses when
Speaker 1: I drive, but especially at night, I do prefer to
Speaker 1: you because yeah, probably now, it's just it's really a
Speaker 1: pain to try to read signs after dark, you know,
Speaker 1: without your glasses on. Anyway, back to enough of that,
Speaker 1: but also the phone is considered odd by people. That's
Speaker 1: but that's people who are posting on Reddit in the
Speaker 1: year twenty seventeen or eighteen, and people they can't imagine
Speaker 1: being away from their phone. Yeah this was, yeah, this
Speaker 1: was two thousand three. When this happens, people weren't, you know,
Speaker 1: as married to their phone. So I don't put a
Speaker 1: lot of weight on that. Well, obviously, the police were
Speaker 1: interested in knowing where Jonathan Luna went between p m.
Speaker 1: When he left his office and five thirty A and
Speaker 1: when his dead body is discovered, so naturally, Uh, they
Speaker 1: checked of course bank and credit card debit card records,
Speaker 1: and also toll road receipts, because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: toll roads on the East coast. We have none out
Speaker 1: here in the West, but they're just all the well
Speaker 1: bridges and that's about it. Yeah, and even those are
Speaker 1: few in farms between. Yeah, they kind of are. Yeah. Actually,
Speaker 1: we California has tolls. Yeah, four years chuck full of tolls,
Speaker 1: and the Oregon doesn't. That's why they have better roads
Speaker 1: than we do. That trap, yeah, but they have they've
Speaker 1: easy passes, yeah, exactly, that's that's that's what people do
Speaker 1: because otherwise if you have to stop and actually give
Speaker 1: some change to a guy, oh my god, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: fifty cents short, Yeah, which means waiting in line and stuff.
Speaker 1: So they have easy passes. You just sails through. It's
Speaker 1: just a little like electronic thing and it links up
Speaker 1: to the thing and they do some places they do
Speaker 1: them by um license plate anymore too, because the cameras
Speaker 1: can read them, and that reading your license plate all
Speaker 1: the time anyway. So yeah, and of course the extra
Speaker 1: textually mentioning that because it turns out Jonathan Luna had
Speaker 1: one in his car. Yeah, he had an easy pass. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So between bank records and his easy pass records, they
Speaker 1: were able to reconstruct his little journey. Uh. And I'm
Speaker 1: not going to give you the whole timeline, but but
Speaker 1: you can find it online if you really want to
Speaker 1: see it. It's in a lot of different places. The
Speaker 1: brief version is he left Baltimore, drove northeast across Maryland
Speaker 1: of Delaware, made his way to Newark, Delaware, where he
Speaker 1: took two hundred bucks out of a a t M
Speaker 1: and then from nart to Peers. He continued into maybe
Speaker 1: New Jersey, then over to Philadelphia, headed northwest to the
Speaker 1: town of King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Welcome up when nast
Speaker 1: name by the way, it's great. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you lived there. You call it kop You just
Speaker 1: call it k or Prussia. What do you call yourselves?
Speaker 1: And royalty, that's what you call yourself, your highness. So
Speaker 1: he but he bought gas there. Yeah, he thought there's
Speaker 1: a there's a little a little thing right off the turnpike.
Speaker 1: There's not even a formal exit. There's just a gas
Speaker 1: station right there. But gas also a snack in a soda,
Speaker 1: being paid with his either debity, I think it's debit card.
Speaker 1: And from there he continued west on the turnpike to
Speaker 1: exit two eighties six, which is just on the front
Speaker 1: of the eastern edge of Denver and past Pennsylvania. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Exe Denver. When when there is a town that is
Speaker 1: the same name as a major town somewhere else, you
Speaker 1: can get can using so I just want to make
Speaker 1: sure it's Denver p A. Yeah, it is Denver p A. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting to you. Also went to Newark, Delaware. I
Speaker 1: never even knew until he researched the story there was Newark, Delaware.
Speaker 1: Nobody else knew either, even the people that lived there.
Speaker 1: At that point he got off the exit, he had
Speaker 1: to pass through a toll booth and pay, and and
Speaker 1: there he presented a paper ticket. And this is this
Speaker 1: is one thing that happened is he was using his
Speaker 1: easy pass when he started his little journey, but then
Speaker 1: he switched to cash for some reason. I would wonder
Speaker 1: if maybe it's because his easy pass only has a
Speaker 1: certain range. You know, they're only good and certain Remember,
Speaker 1: so you're here tri met the rail system. They used
Speaker 1: to have zones and you could pay for zone one,
Speaker 1: zone one and two, zone one, two and three when
Speaker 1: you bought things, and I wonderful, how well, But I'm
Speaker 1: wondering if maybe he was in some weird government paid
Speaker 1: program that only allowed him a certain radius. Who knows,
Speaker 1: It's probably not that important, or maybe he just didn't
Speaker 1: want people know him where he went. I don't know.
Speaker 1: And here's question too, is um, you know most of
Speaker 1: these things would have cameras attached to them. Is it
Speaker 1: confirmed that he is the one who you know, went
Speaker 1: and took two hundred dollars out that you did all
Speaker 1: these little things? Uh, not necessarily, you know. They obviously
Speaker 1: they checked the camera in the A t M. And
Speaker 1: I've heard two versions of this. One says it wasn't
Speaker 1: working period and the other one camera yeah and then
Speaker 1: a t M. The other one I heard is that
Speaker 1: it was working and that he had nobody, nobody with
Speaker 1: him and he appeared calm and normal and uninjured, so
Speaker 1: you know, to the two versions of the same thing.
Speaker 1: So I don't know. And then the other other place
Speaker 1: they were able to find footage was at that gas
Speaker 1: station that he stopped at in King of Prussia, and
Speaker 1: their camera was working, but he never appears on film there.
Speaker 1: So somehow he managed to evade that camera. I don't
Speaker 1: enough intentionally, probably just accidentally. It just wasn't quite putting
Speaker 1: in the right direction. So yeah, they didn't really have
Speaker 1: any footage of that there. There were also a couple
Speaker 1: of employees that gas station who remembered him, or at
Speaker 1: least they said they did, and they said there was
Speaker 1: nothing odd going on with him. But anyway, he as
Speaker 1: I said, he left the turnpike at ex at two
Speaker 1: six uh, and then he circled back on the south
Speaker 1: side of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, went back eastward until he
Speaker 1: got the Dry Tavern Road, interesting name, Dry Tavern and
Speaker 1: then from there, yeah, I know, what's the point, right,
Speaker 1: But then he goes north and turns on to the
Speaker 1: property of the drilling place, and you know, we know
Speaker 1: what the rest is. He is stabbed by somebody or
Speaker 1: something and he times weird. But the weird thing about
Speaker 1: the timeline of his night is it took him roughly
Speaker 1: three hours to arrive on Dry Dry Tavern Road, straight Tavern,
Speaker 1: Dry Tavern Road. He took a round about root, right,
Speaker 1: But if you map the route that he took it's
Speaker 1: about an hour and a half drive when there's no traffic,
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of unaccounted time there, and I
Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that gives a lot
Speaker 1: of people paw is what was he doing in the
Speaker 1: other hour and a half? Well, yeah, there is there
Speaker 1: is a chunk of time there which is like, I mean,
Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff that he was. Well, we
Speaker 1: caught him here going using an easy pass which saw
Speaker 1: the A T M here, So that's kind of accounted
Speaker 1: for because even they would have taken him about that
Speaker 1: one to get from A to B. But there is
Speaker 1: that one little patch whereas about an hour or so
Speaker 1: hour and a half maybe even though just totally on
Speaker 1: account of time, they don't know where he was and
Speaker 1: what he was doing exactly, which you know, he may
Speaker 1: well just have been driving around still or maybe he
Speaker 1: stopped off to buy drugs by a gun. I mean,
Speaker 1: who knows, see a movie. I mean, we don't know.
Speaker 1: So the so the local authorities, which would be the
Speaker 1: Lancaster County Coroner's Office, ruled the case of homicide based
Speaker 1: on their autopsy results. Again, there were thirty six stab wounds,
Speaker 1: so that is kind of suspicious. Plus there was that
Speaker 1: head wound, and they don't say, I mean, they haven't
Speaker 1: actually released a lot of information. The case is still open,
Speaker 1: so that means a lot of this stuff is still unavailable.
Speaker 1: So when they say head, well, I don't know what
Speaker 1: that means. He was hit with a rock baseball all
Speaker 1: bad at Crowbar. You don't know. I mean, we just
Speaker 1: don't know exactly the nature of that wound. Um, so
Speaker 1: it sounds like it's notable. Most of the stab wounds
Speaker 1: were very shallow. In fact, you know, almost all of them.
Speaker 1: They were what they called pricks, just little teeny stabs
Speaker 1: and so not really deep stabs at all. But for
Speaker 1: them were pretty deep. Only one could really be called fatal,
Speaker 1: which was a stab in the neck that partially severed
Speaker 1: one of Jonathan Luna's caarated arteries. Those are pretty important
Speaker 1: major so if Luna had not drowned, then certainly he
Speaker 1: would have led out from this wound anyway, there's no
Speaker 1: doubt about that. And as for the thirty two stab
Speaker 1: wounds that weren't deep, these could be interpreted two different ways.
Speaker 1: One is torture. Somebody's just stabbed him a lot, just
Speaker 1: out of sheer sudism or something, or the other way
Speaker 1: you can interpret them is is hesitation marks, which we've
Speaker 1: talked about before, because um, there are those shallow wounds
Speaker 1: that suicidal people make before they finally work up the
Speaker 1: will to make a final deep cut. You a lot,
Speaker 1: though it's a lot typically from what I've heard that
Speaker 1: there's usually no more than maybe ten hesitation marks and
Speaker 1: a typical suicide. So thirty two is a hell of
Speaker 1: a lot. So that's odd. That would argue kind of
Speaker 1: for torture, wouldn't it, You would think, Uh. And then
Speaker 1: also there was the presence of defensive wounds or maybe not.
Speaker 1: There was a leak from a federal law enforcement agent
Speaker 1: that to a reporter that his hands were all all
Speaker 1: slashed up and everything, although it turns out apparently that's
Speaker 1: not true, that the medical examiners said that all the
Speaker 1: stabs were basically run his chest, shoulders neck. See now
Speaker 1: there's you gave us that article that was what Mr
Speaker 1: Luna's midnight ride, and the guy who wrote that wrote
Speaker 1: some other articles chasing this story and said that he
Speaker 1: actually talked to the mortician that dealt with the body
Speaker 1: and said that the cuts on the hands were so
Speaker 1: much that they had first tried to stitch him together
Speaker 1: for the for the you know, for the funeral, and
Speaker 1: in the end for the viewing, they had to put
Speaker 1: his hands in gloves because they were just so sliced
Speaker 1: up they couldn't stitch it closed and hide it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that would lead one to believe that they're actually
Speaker 1: caught up more. And that person also indicated that the
Speaker 1: cuts on his back, because there were cuts on his
Speaker 1: neck and his shoulders, they were more around the middle
Speaker 1: of his back, kind of near his shoulder blades, out
Speaker 1: what appeared to be out of reach of what a
Speaker 1: person could normally reach. You how you get that itch
Speaker 1: between your shoulder blades and you can't get it? That's
Speaker 1: the only place where I get itches. Yes, but that's
Speaker 1: they indicated that there were cuts back there. So that's
Speaker 1: why I questioned the wounds weren't as bad as as
Speaker 1: they were. But I've I've seen incredible, very credible sources
Speaker 1: that say that all that is. Who has another another
Speaker 1: claim that his crown him was slashed, and I've heard
Speaker 1: but then the best it seems like the best sources
Speaker 1: I've seen it just say that it was thirty six,
Speaker 1: just around in places that were not impossible or came
Speaker 1: to reach if he had self inflicted. The wounds morticians
Speaker 1: also the one who talked about the scrotum having several
Speaker 1: that did not appear to be anything that a man
Speaker 1: would normally do to himself. Yeah, now, typically that's that's
Speaker 1: not a place we go to. Uh So, I I've
Speaker 1: got to say, that's that's kind of up in the
Speaker 1: air for me. It really is. I mean, obviously, if
Speaker 1: he has a stab wound, like you know, between the
Speaker 1: shoulder blades where he could not possibly have reached, that
Speaker 1: sort of changes things, do you know, it really does.
Speaker 1: But so we're just gonna have to be agnostic on
Speaker 1: that particular one. I think so based on our crime
Speaker 1: scene and the wounds and the evidence of his very
Speaker 1: long and explained car ride, it looked like, you know,
Speaker 1: at first blush that Luna had been abducted perhaps and
Speaker 1: then murdered, But then evidence from the car and the
Speaker 1: crime scene didn't totally support that. There actually not at all.
Speaker 1: There was There was nothing found in the car. There
Speaker 1: was a partial fingerprint that was unidentifiable, and a little
Speaker 1: bit of blood that didn't belong to Jonathan Luna. Those
Speaker 1: are found in the car, but that was it. And
Speaker 1: other than that, there was no evidence that anybody other
Speaker 1: than Luna had been in the car. No d n
Speaker 1: A or hair or fingerprints or footprints or anything. But
Speaker 1: most of the blood wasn't also at the crime scene, right,
Speaker 1: I mean most of the blood was in the car. Yeah,
Speaker 1: most of the blood was in the car. I assumed
Speaker 1: there was. There was some on the ground and near him,
Speaker 1: but it was the evidence. Wasn't that somebody had walked
Speaker 1: up to him there and stabbed him thirty six times
Speaker 1: and he had stumbled down right the creek. Yeah? No, no, no,
Speaker 1: no evidence for that now, and no evidence that somebody
Speaker 1: had been in the car with him either. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: would be unfortunate, you know, to be out in your
Speaker 1: cruise to go to this total place we'd never expect
Speaker 1: to see anybody and there's Mr. Serial killer waiting for you.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, there was no murder weapon there,
Speaker 1: which would argue was kind of argue for murder because
Speaker 1: we have a murder we would expect would take it
Speaker 1: away with him, right, and no murder weapon there. It
Speaker 1: would also explain why most of the blood was like
Speaker 1: in the back of the car, not in the driver's
Speaker 1: that would that would maybe be an indicator. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: le's assuming assuming for a second that it was murdered,
Speaker 1: than what would the motive be? And of course a
Speaker 1: lot of people wandered, federal prosecutor, did it has something
Speaker 1: to do with this job? Maybe? So we'll talk a
Speaker 1: little bit here about his last case because it's kind
Speaker 1: of relevant. I think this is the trial for which
Speaker 1: he was writing up the plea agreements on his last evening.
Speaker 1: There were a couple of guys Dion Smith, Walter Point
Speaker 1: Dexter on federal trial for drug possession and trafficking, and
Speaker 1: this case wasn't going as well as it could have
Speaker 1: for Luna, which is why he was cutting this plea deal.
Speaker 1: And you know, people have wondered, could his death have
Speaker 1: had something to do with this trial, for example, because
Speaker 1: these two defendants were drug traffickers, one of them was
Speaker 1: facing the death penalty. Yeah, people were thinking to have
Speaker 1: something to do with these guys, and their lawyers actually
Speaker 1: poo pooed the idea because they said, well, naturally, but
Speaker 1: actually they make a good argument for this because I
Speaker 1: mean it said that basically these guys were on the
Speaker 1: verge of getting a really sweet plea deal that actually
Speaker 1: was very favorable to them, and so they weren't they
Speaker 1: were actually happy, so that that might rule them out.
Speaker 1: I don't know. But then again, he was a prosecutor,
Speaker 1: so he would put other people away, so maybe somebody
Speaker 1: else was Yeah, so maybe somebody else was angry. Um.
Speaker 1: But of course all that stuff was looked into, and
Speaker 1: probably his most most dangerous psychotic cases and people like
Speaker 1: that were all looked at, and they found no evidence
Speaker 1: to to link anybody to it. Uh. At the investigation ground.
Speaker 1: On about six or so weeks after the murder of
Speaker 1: a small pen knife was found in the mud of
Speaker 1: the creek where his body had been found. So hey,
Speaker 1: that's progress. And police say that they believe it was Luna's.
Speaker 1: They won't say whether it has blood or fingerprints on it. Uh,
Speaker 1: And they also don't say why they have concluded it
Speaker 1: was Luna's knife. I don't know if they showed her
Speaker 1: to his wife or initials that could be that could
Speaker 1: be it too. I had no idea. So again, one
Speaker 1: of the one of these days when they closed his
Speaker 1: case and we can look at these records, we might
Speaker 1: find out. But a long about this time, this is
Speaker 1: a long about February two thousand four as a case
Speaker 1: grinds on. Of course, it attracted a lot of press
Speaker 1: attention on the East Coast, which case Jonathan Luna's case. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I talked about Dion and so clarifying we're still talking
Speaker 1: about We're back to looking about the Luna case. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to talk about a little bit. I'll talk
Speaker 1: a bit a bit more about Smith and point Extra
Speaker 1: in their case here in a minute. But around this time,
Speaker 1: leaks from law enforcement began to appear in the media.
Speaker 1: It turns out they found that Luna had a profile
Speaker 1: at least one internet dating website. Yeah, what was the one, actually, Madison? Yeah,
Speaker 1: probably that one, yeah dot Com. So naturally that this
Speaker 1: raised the possibility that maybe he got murdered by something
Speaker 1: very sketchy woman that he met online or her another
Speaker 1: or maybe that too. That always raises that possibility. And
Speaker 1: they also I found out that he had about bucks
Speaker 1: in debt from a couple of credit cards at a
Speaker 1: second mortgage, so you know, bucks, and that's not chicken feed,
Speaker 1: although I guess for a guy making his wage, maybe
Speaker 1: it's not a life ending deal either. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I imagine he was pretty well compensated in that position. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing about that is, I also feel
Speaker 1: like I would like to make that assumption. But if
Speaker 1: you have that much money, you pay your your debt off, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know you usually not always, not always, certainly there
Speaker 1: are people who are irresponsible. But if it was well
Speaker 1: within his means to pay off that debt, it's likely
Speaker 1: been making a dentiant. If he's the kind of guy
Speaker 1: that leads the house at eleven o'clock at nine and
Speaker 1: goes to the office and then leaves the office at
Speaker 1: midnight to come back home because he had to go
Speaker 1: do more work, he may have just those kind of
Speaker 1: details just didn't matter. Let it be on the minimum payment.
Speaker 1: I'll take care of it eventually until and then he's
Speaker 1: got an OS moment and you know, take care of it.
Speaker 1: Well maybe, I mean maybe his wife usually took care
Speaker 1: of money stuff. Maybe I don't know. Speaking of his wife. Oh,
Speaker 1: by the way, it turns out he also had at
Speaker 1: least one credit card that she didn't know about. Ye, yeah,
Speaker 1: which is not don't all. Yeah, I'm telling your wife,
Speaker 1: I have bank accounts that woman doesn't know about. Don't
Speaker 1: tell her she doesn't doesn't listen to the podcast. Thank god? Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank god. That the other reason I'm spilling the beans here.
Speaker 1: Actually nobody she knows listens and I don't have an
Speaker 1: insurance policy on her thought, Yeah I do. But anyway,
Speaker 1: what else? Oh? Yeah, and I don't know how how
Speaker 1: hanky this is. Apparently he taken a lot about explayed
Speaker 1: trips to Philadelphia, and he took four just in the
Speaker 1: month before he died. Nobody really knows why he did that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that could be uh, And there was actually had met
Speaker 1: a woman named Ashley Madison and was going to visit her.
Speaker 1: Not the dating website. You just met an actual person. Well,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna have a dating website, I mean, if
Speaker 1: you're going to be a Skis and have a dating
Speaker 1: profile while you're married, it behooves you to have your
Speaker 1: dating profile, say you live in a different place, so
Speaker 1: that if your wife for some reason also was a
Speaker 1: dating profile, or if she goes on to find you,
Speaker 1: wouldn't that be a rude? And speaking of us, I'm
Speaker 1: sure there's got to be at least several women in
Speaker 1: American named Ashley Madison. And how do they feel about it?
Speaker 1: I wanted I bet they do. Uh, Okay, where are
Speaker 1: we at out of that? They really are having a
Speaker 1: great time. Okay. There's one other thing I wanted to mention,
Speaker 1: which is a possible stresser in Luna's life, which is
Speaker 1: the year before, in two thousand two, he was prosecuting
Speaker 1: a bank robbery case and some cash was brought into
Speaker 1: the courtroom as evidence in three large plastic bags and
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, Luna and an FBI
Speaker 1: agent had to take it to the vault, the evidence
Speaker 1: vault in the courthouse. Well, uh, ten days later, it
Speaker 1: was discovered that one of those bags was missing, at
Speaker 1: thirty eight thousand, one hundred dollars in it. There was
Speaker 1: a little scandal about that made his way into the press,
Speaker 1: and uh, everybody came under suspicion, including Luna. Even the
Speaker 1: judge was interviewed by the FBI. The FBI being federal
Speaker 1: courthouse FBI jurisdiction, so they were investigating this. He investigation
Speaker 1: was still ongoing, and they at this point had no suspects.
Speaker 1: They were polygraphing everybody, and according to leaks from law enforcement,
Speaker 1: he was about and Luna was about to get polygraphed
Speaker 1: himself for this particular thing, and so that may have
Speaker 1: been a stresser in his life. I personally don't think
Speaker 1: he stole the money, but he might be stressed that
Speaker 1: this is a giant screw up and a black mark
Speaker 1: on his record. Oh yeah, well he was the last
Speaker 1: person to be in possession. Besides that that FBI agents.
Speaker 1: So yeah. And then one other law enforcement leak came out.
Speaker 1: It turns out that law enforcement discovered that Luna had
Speaker 1: filled out an online application for a loan for about
Speaker 1: thirty thousand bucks and two thousand two and apparently he
Speaker 1: canceled the application right about the time that the money disappeared.
Speaker 1: That left all suspicious And by the way, this is
Speaker 1: like all these leaks, so I guess I'll give away
Speaker 1: the game now. All these these leaks, in the eyes
Speaker 1: of some people looked almost kind of concerted, almost as
Speaker 1: if law enforcement was trying to trash Luna's reputation. Of
Speaker 1: course that doesn't leaks. Yeah, yeah, that that that there
Speaker 1: could have been a motive, in some sort of coordination
Speaker 1: behind these I'm not sure that that's We've never seen
Speaker 1: that with the government operation never ever. Yeah, A long
Speaker 1: about this time, about early March, law enforcement began floating
Speaker 1: the possibility that he might have killed himself. Up to
Speaker 1: this point, everybody was sure it was murder, and now
Speaker 1: suddenly the same maybe he killed himself. And there were
Speaker 1: stories in the press New York Times, Washington Post right
Speaker 1: about this time, including quotes from famous pathologists like Dr
Speaker 1: Henry Lee. You guys have all heard of him, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: and and one other guy who I forget, stating that
Speaker 1: the shallow prick marks from that I probably were hesitation wounds.
Speaker 1: So once some of the theory there for so suicide.
Speaker 1: He was deep in debt and shaky suspected the theft
Speaker 1: of all this cash, which at the very least we're
Speaker 1: gonna damage his career probably if there was suspicions about that.
Speaker 1: And I heard also that his boss didn't like each other.
Speaker 1: His boss really didn't like him, wanted to fire him.
Speaker 1: Although the boss won't comment on it, he's obviously was
Speaker 1: asked by reporters. And so it was all this stuff
Speaker 1: enough to kill himself over well, I don't know, not
Speaker 1: necessarily in my book, but there was one other thing
Speaker 1: that was going on. One he won on his last
Speaker 1: big ride, and that was, of course, we talked about
Speaker 1: the trial of Dion Smith and Walter Pointdexter for heroin
Speaker 1: traffic so U and Walter point Extra by the way,
Speaker 1: it was going to be tried later for murder drug
Speaker 1: related murder, and Luda was also going to prosecute that.
Speaker 1: Uh and this is serious stuff. Uh. Smith was looking
Speaker 1: at several decades in prison, Point Dexter, death penalty and
Speaker 1: so big thing. Essentially, Dion Smith was a mid level
Speaker 1: drug supplier in Baltimore. Point Exter bought from him and
Speaker 1: used and used that you supply his street level guys
Speaker 1: that the guys on the corner, and he had a
Speaker 1: star dealer named Warren Grace. Warren got arrested, was facing
Speaker 1: huge amounts of time and offered to turn to essentially
Speaker 1: squeal on Will Smith and pointdex evidence. Yeah, essentially. So
Speaker 1: the Baltimore p D turned it over to the FBI,
Speaker 1: the Justice Department. So there was an FBI agent named
Speaker 1: Steve Skinner who was running that. We're going to run
Speaker 1: him as an informant as Skinner. Yeah, yeah, I know
Speaker 1: I made these same associations. I don't have that poor guy.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he gets that constantly. I found him on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1: I think he's still with the FBI. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: Luna was supervising this whole operation, and they he dropped
Speaker 1: a couple of charges against Warren just to show his
Speaker 1: his good will, and then Warren agreed to be their
Speaker 1: informant against these two. He pleaded guilty to charges of
Speaker 1: possession and gun possession also, and he was remanded to
Speaker 1: a halfway house until he was sentenced. Now in the meantime,
Speaker 1: he's gonna be there. He's gonna be there snitch, and
Speaker 1: he's gonna wear a wire and everything. And he had
Speaker 1: they had a written agreement he was going to not
Speaker 1: use any guns or not engaging violence. He was going
Speaker 1: to not use drugs or sell drugs, going to not
Speaker 1: leave the halfway house without FBI permission, gonna wear an
Speaker 1: ankle bracelet. And of course he broke every one of
Speaker 1: those rules, every single one him. He was out no
Speaker 1: time at all. He was out shooting up the neighborhood
Speaker 1: and selling drugs and all that stuff back to his
Speaker 1: old habits. Yeah, yeah, so he was. It's it's kind
Speaker 1: of ironic, you know that they he was there, he
Speaker 1: was their special informant, and they were really overlooking all
Speaker 1: this stuff because he was wearing a wire and getting
Speaker 1: some good information on Smith and Poindexter. So, but but
Speaker 1: at some point it seems to me like they got
Speaker 1: their priorities a little skewed, because, I mean, here's Warren,
Speaker 1: who was at least as big a menace to society
Speaker 1: as these two guys are trying to put in jail there,
Speaker 1: and they're kind of covering for him while they're trying
Speaker 1: to lock these other two guys up. Now, it really
Speaker 1: wasn't a good situation anyway. Smith and Point Extra were
Speaker 1: arrested May two thousand three, both for her own possession
Speaker 1: and trafficking. Of course, Walter Pointdexter arrested for murder. That
Speaker 1: was the murder of a guy named Alvin Jones, drug
Speaker 1: related as I said, And it was decided they would
Speaker 1: be tried together for the drug charges and then immediately
Speaker 1: right after that Point Extra would be charged for the murder,
Speaker 1: also prosecuted by Jonathan Luna. Well, the trial for the
Speaker 1: drug charges began to send refers two thousand three, which
Speaker 1: is just two days before Jonathan Luna's last ride. This
Speaker 1: case should have been a slam dug for the prosecution.
Speaker 1: They had tons of audio tape of both Smith and
Speaker 1: point exter Is saying all kinds of incriminating things, And
Speaker 1: of course they had Warren Grace's testimony star witness, star witness,
Speaker 1: but unfortunately for the prosecution, Warren did not turn out
Speaker 1: to be as credible a witness as everybody had hoped.
Speaker 1: Yeah it or not. And Jonathan Luna approached the defence
Speaker 1: team at lunchtime on Wednesday, December third and offered them
Speaker 1: a plea deal. And that's the one he was working
Speaker 1: on on the night that he disappeared. So this is
Speaker 1: what's going on in his life today, that he left
Speaker 1: Baltimore for his big long car ride and didn't have
Speaker 1: a bearing on him winding up dead. Well, maybe we
Speaker 1: got to talk about all that in our theories. But
Speaker 1: before we got the theories, let's take a quick break
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Speaker 1: Then we're back. So we've three basic theories here there
Speaker 1: were before, but Choopy had an alibife for that night,
Speaker 1: so sorry choppy haters, but yeah, there it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was working with Pinkerton's that day exactly. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: were the series are it was murder or he was
Speaker 1: murder suicide, yeah, or it was other murder, or it
Speaker 1: was different murder it's d or maybe an accident. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it would be an interesting accident. But still there's a plausible,
Speaker 1: sort of plausible theory for an accident. So let's talk
Speaker 1: about murder first. We like murder the best, so we
Speaker 1: talked about it first. And a law enforceman had three
Speaker 1: different sort of trains of thought they were following here,
Speaker 1: and one is said, of course, murdered over his job.
Speaker 1: Some vengeful x con or perhaps somebody on trial right now,
Speaker 1: you know, decided to have him whacked. Or second, maybe
Speaker 1: somebody he'd met online they pursued that line of thought.
Speaker 1: Or maybe he just happened to have the bad luck
Speaker 1: to run into a serial killer. He went out for
Speaker 1: a drive to clear his head stuff, that one, that one,
Speaker 1: you know, that one gets taped onto everything. And let's
Speaker 1: just that I'm really gonna because first of all, I
Speaker 1: think a serial killer would have chosen a better weapon.
Speaker 1: So you think, yeah, the pen knife serial killer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well asked for the online dating stuff. Well, they never
Speaker 1: found any any good leads or real evidence or suspects
Speaker 1: in that either. And again I don't think. I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly what he was up to. I mean, for
Speaker 1: all I know, law enforcement lied about the dating website stuff.
Speaker 1: Or maybe it was from back before he was married.
Speaker 1: That doesn't really make any sense. Maybe not, I don't know. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it married for quite a few years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Whatever. But and that leads revenge for
Speaker 1: a previous prosecution, which is totally plausible. He put a
Speaker 1: lot of people away, and that pisses a lot of
Speaker 1: people on it really does. Although it would be a
Speaker 1: kind of a coincidence that that he happened to exactly
Speaker 1: revenge on the exact day that his career Jonathan in
Speaker 1: his career kind of hit a low point. Well but
Speaker 1: you know, but okay, so I will I will adject
Speaker 1: to that right now because we're using legal terminology and
Speaker 1: say that phrase, because you could say that his his
Speaker 1: career was kind of imploding for the year after that
Speaker 1: money went missing. If he had been killed four or
Speaker 1: died four months prior to that. We were probably saying, well,
Speaker 1: and obviously his career was on a downturn because he
Speaker 1: had this other you know, I mean, these cases, it
Speaker 1: always it wasn't according to Plant well as far as
Speaker 1: his career, I want, the money wasn't this big problem.
Speaker 1: But we'll talk about that in a minute. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: could be that Smith and point to extra who are
Speaker 1: on trial just then had ordered to hit on Luna
Speaker 1: based on the dumb criminal reasoning that if the prosecutor
Speaker 1: is killed and the prosecution goes away, isn't that how
Speaker 1: it works? Yeah? Well, I mean, I guess I don't
Speaker 1: have as much of a problem with it being involved
Speaker 1: with that case as I think a lot of other
Speaker 1: people do, because in my mind, you know, they're part
Speaker 1: of gangs. It's not as though they were just these
Speaker 1: two men who happened to be They were part of
Speaker 1: an organization. And granted they knew and their lawyers knew
Speaker 1: that they were about to get a really good plea deal,
Speaker 1: but it could have looked from the outside as though
Speaker 1: they either it was obvious that Warren had snitched and
Speaker 1: they were like, well, these guys are going to snitch too,
Speaker 1: and we have to get rid of the prosecution. For
Speaker 1: some reason that makes sense, or it could have been
Speaker 1: that it looked like to them that the way that
Speaker 1: logic follows, right, it's not a good logic, but that
Speaker 1: getting rid of the prosecutor means getting rid of the prosecution,
Speaker 1: and that it looked like from the outside that these
Speaker 1: guys were going to go away for a really long time,
Speaker 1: maybe even one of them was going to have the
Speaker 1: death penalty enforced on them, and and you know, to
Speaker 1: some outside game member, it was worth killing this guy
Speaker 1: to get rid of that. I mean, I don't think
Speaker 1: the plea deal itself negates their threat or somebody that
Speaker 1: they cared about them threat. Yeah, I would take a
Speaker 1: remarkably dumb criminal thank But maybe they were. The thinking
Speaker 1: process was like, well, if we whacked the prosecutor, then
Speaker 1: all any other prosecutor will be afraid to take this case,
Speaker 1: and so they'll just decide to plead it out. Or
Speaker 1: criminals are often very dumb. We have seen that work.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about all of the judge
Speaker 1: killings that happened in South America for years and years,
Speaker 1: who the guys who would prosecute, would prosecute. I mean this,
Speaker 1: this thinking is out there and there is a set
Speaker 1: logic to prove that sometimes it works. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: this is a little early in the process to try
Speaker 1: to these guys exactly that action. But yeah, these guys
Speaker 1: were not big enough for rich enough. They weren't Pablo Escobar,
Speaker 1: you know. They well, in fairness, Pablo Escobar wasn't always
Speaker 1: Pablo Escobar. He started out small too. Yeah, so they
Speaker 1: could have been the next Pablo Escobar. Maybe they were
Speaker 1: angle to be Pablo. Yeah, I hope not. We don't
Speaker 1: need that here. But there was one up that I
Speaker 1: have with the murder theory, which is that, as I
Speaker 1: mentioned before, no evidence was found in the car to
Speaker 1: suggest anything that anybody had been in it. Tire tracks
Speaker 1: don't indicate a second vehicle to scene, so had the
Speaker 1: killer get away you know, there were no footprints, like
Speaker 1: saying the mud at the edge of the creek that
Speaker 1: didn't belong to Jonathan Luna. Yeah, I guess I don't.
Speaker 1: I also don't have as bigger problem with you because
Speaker 1: there's so much time on accounting for in his night yea,
Speaker 1: and particularly near the end of his night that we don't.
Speaker 1: It's possible that he could have, you know, been meeting
Speaker 1: somebody on the side of the road, gotten stabbed a
Speaker 1: bunch of hopped back in his car or fallen into
Speaker 1: his car or whatever, and then I'm like, oh, God,
Speaker 1: been super disoriented and kind of run into a Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, there is that possibility. I mean it, It
Speaker 1: doesn't The evidence does indicate, like I said, that he
Speaker 1: drove behind the building and then stopped the car, and
Speaker 1: then the car goes again and goes into the creek.
Speaker 1: So maybe somebody attacks him there at that spot where
Speaker 1: he stopped, And yeah, I had the exact same thought
Speaker 1: that the fight goes on. I still think the blood
Speaker 1: in the back seat is the thing that makes me
Speaker 1: think that he had to have been in the back seat,
Speaker 1: because if it's his hands and then his neck and
Speaker 1: all of that, they would have to be a lot
Speaker 1: of blood soaking through the seat for it to reach
Speaker 1: the back of the car. On the floorboard can kind
Speaker 1: of go down between the back and the bottom. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: But to me, it indicates more that he was in
Speaker 1: the rear of the car for some reason. So then
Speaker 1: whatever happens, whoever does it, walks away and then he
Speaker 1: clambers his way into the driver's seat to try and
Speaker 1: get away, but all he's able to do is is
Speaker 1: we just said, knock it into gear, and the car
Speaker 1: just idols forwards until it thunks off the edge and
Speaker 1: it gets high centered and can't keep going, and he
Speaker 1: gets out and stumbles into the creek or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like that girl that wrecked in front of my house.
Speaker 1: You know, it gets all drunkenly tried to figure out
Speaker 1: what's going on, except he is literally dying and falls
Speaker 1: off the edge of the creek. Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: But then there's there's the knife. So what happens is
Speaker 1: that maybe the killer walks up to him, you know,
Speaker 1: and where he's laying face down in the in the
Speaker 1: mud in the water, and drops the knife next to him.
Speaker 1: Maybe they didn't find it until six weeks later. It
Speaker 1: could have been planted, or that could have also not
Speaker 1: been the murder weapon. We don't know. It could have
Speaker 1: been a random pen knife, could have been one that
Speaker 1: he had in his breast pocket all the time and
Speaker 1: just fell out as he fell, and it was neutruly
Speaker 1: buoyant like hard drives, and so it floated the whole
Speaker 1: It floated a while down stream. Yeah, speaking of hard
Speaker 1: drives lost and found, this one did sort of happen
Speaker 1: right around the time that rag Rick or yeah, yeah, mr.
Speaker 1: There there were some a few people that did actually
Speaker 1: draw some some between suggestions for the Lunar case came
Speaker 1: in like wildfire after yeah, yeah, I know, um, well
Speaker 1: so that's it for murder for now, but let's get
Speaker 1: let's go onto something else, accident. This is a hypothesis
Speaker 1: that law enforcement came up with, was which was given
Speaker 1: his problems, especially with you know, the cash thing and
Speaker 1: everything else. But he might have Lunar might have stage
Speaker 1: his own abduction and employed to kind of gain sympathy
Speaker 1: and maybe diverse of attention from his poor performance in
Speaker 1: the trial that was going on that week. And also,
Speaker 1: of course there's the whole money thing. And even if
Speaker 1: he wasn't guilty of stealing the money, just for me
Speaker 1: taking a polygraph, especially something that would be a kind
Speaker 1: of career ending kind of thing, would be stressful enough,
Speaker 1: even especially because it turns out polygraphs, no, they're not,
Speaker 1: they're not at all. You know that All the measure
Speaker 1: is how nervous you are, not how truthful you are.
Speaker 1: So that's as it really isn't fair in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways. Perhaps he takes a drive to clear his
Speaker 1: head a little bit, hatches this idea of faking and inbduction,
Speaker 1: gets out his pocket and I started sticking himself to
Speaker 1: make it look like he'd been tortured, you know, by
Speaker 1: some by his abductor. Yeah. Yeah, it drives aroun until
Speaker 1: he finds a suitable place where he stabs himself more
Speaker 1: deeply to make it look like a real attempted murder.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately for him, he screwed up and severed his
Speaker 1: caroated artery starts bleeding like a stuck pig loops. Didn't
Speaker 1: mean to do that exactly. And of course, as you know,
Speaker 1: if you cut the crodd artery, not only do you
Speaker 1: bleed a lot, but your blood flow to your brain
Speaker 1: is cut off, diverted well as I mean, you still
Speaker 1: got the one on the other side, that's still but
Speaker 1: still you know your capacity. That's not good, not good
Speaker 1: at all. Yeah, he might not have been too clear
Speaker 1: headed in his final moments. What that might explain why
Speaker 1: the car winds up partially in the ditch and he
Speaker 1: wants to face down. Maybe he thought would be a
Speaker 1: good idea to get out and stumble into the ditch
Speaker 1: for some reason. Again, his brain probably wasn't working a
Speaker 1: capacity falls down listen, I can I can see where
Speaker 1: this theory is going. This is much like what's his
Speaker 1: name Anthony Leaner years ago when he said I was
Speaker 1: hiking the Appalachian Trail because it was the first thing
Speaker 1: that he thought of to try to get out of trouble.
Speaker 1: And this could be the same thing. Ray Ray Greek
Speaker 1: r Jonathan Luna is suddenly like, what do I do?
Speaker 1: What do I do? I'm I'm gonna get attacked. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna get attacked. But it's just it's such a
Speaker 1: screwy idea, and it took him so long to go
Speaker 1: about it that it it seems him. It doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like it's a real idea. If somebody does this, you
Speaker 1: would think they would just like drive off into the
Speaker 1: hood and cut themselves up and then dial nine one
Speaker 1: one and say I've been attacked, because that's an easy
Speaker 1: way to get out of it. This seems like a
Speaker 1: long drive and a lot of stuff to do for
Speaker 1: going and starting his sympathy campaign. Yeah, I mean, it
Speaker 1: definitely would have made more sense to um, really, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, just go down and pick a fight with
Speaker 1: some homeless guys and get beat up real bad and
Speaker 1: then and then go like, just throw yourself down in
Speaker 1: an alley where the pool you will find. I'm gonna say,
Speaker 1: for a guy like Luna in Baltimore, it probably would
Speaker 1: not be so hard to get real beat up. Probably
Speaker 1: not actually, probably less painful than cutting yourself thirty six
Speaker 1: times the hands. Yes, that's it's just it's illogical. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this one is not impossible at all, but it's it's
Speaker 1: a little bit of a stretch, I would say. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: so we don't murder with an accident, was left from suicide.
Speaker 1: So we already talked a bit about some of the
Speaker 1: stressors and Luna's life that might have made him want
Speaker 1: to take his own life. Yeah again, we're talking possible
Speaker 1: marriage issues, debt, legal jeopardy from the missing thirty eight
Speaker 1: thousand bucks. His boss didn't like him, His job was
Speaker 1: maybe in jeopardy also, and I haven't gotten into it
Speaker 1: too deeply. Yeah, but let's talk about this now. Which
Speaker 1: was his very bad day that day of December three
Speaker 1: in court? Oh yeah, Okay, had a rough day as
Speaker 1: I said, the trial at Smith and Point Extra began
Speaker 1: December first, Monday, uh and from the very beginning, the
Speaker 1: defense attorneys, well, they had found out something that had
Speaker 1: been withheld from them by the prosecution, which is they
Speaker 1: found out about Warren, the new Warren was going to
Speaker 1: be a witness. And by the way, for folks who
Speaker 1: aren't aware, especially those that don't live in this country,
Speaker 1: the rule of law when you're on trial is that
Speaker 1: the prosecution shares its information with the defense. Yeah, keep
Speaker 1: things hidden. Yeah, this is called discovery, discovery process, and
Speaker 1: they can't withhold stuff. That's a big no. Now. I
Speaker 1: believe that defense can to a degree, but not not
Speaker 1: the prosecution because they're the ones proving it. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: they've got like, because everything they're gonna throw at them,
Speaker 1: they have to show them ahead of time so they
Speaker 1: can you know, defend against come up with an argument
Speaker 1: against it. Right, So our boy is being a jerk
Speaker 1: and going around and selling drugs and doing all of
Speaker 1: the definite neighborhood possibly you know, there's some intimation that
Speaker 1: he might have murdered as a person or two. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well I don't think he did that. When he was
Speaker 1: wearing the wire. And he also he also wasn't wearing
Speaker 1: his ankle bracelet either. He took that off whenever he
Speaker 1: felt like it. Again. You know, it's funny. I always
Speaker 1: thought those things couldn't just be removed, but maybe it
Speaker 1: was an early model. Apparently they can if you know
Speaker 1: what you're doing. Yeah, But the fact that Warren had
Speaker 1: broken the rules of his plea agreement and also the
Speaker 1: fact that he was a paid informant that I mentioned
Speaker 1: that he was paid, yeah I did. I Yeah, he
Speaker 1: was getting paid for this. I mean all those things.
Speaker 1: Actually those are relevant to the prosecutor that because they
Speaker 1: go to his credibility as a prosecution witness. But the
Speaker 1: defense had not been told about this stuff. Well, so
Speaker 1: they made a stink about it from day one, and
Speaker 1: as of day two, they actually were starting to raise
Speaker 1: the possibility that this constituted actually a big cover up
Speaker 1: by the FBI and the Department of Justice of Warren's
Speaker 1: by behavior. The judge, the judge in this case, his
Speaker 1: name was William Corals, feral judge, basically said that the
Speaker 1: trial should continue because they still despite despite Warren's lack
Speaker 1: of credibility as a witness, they still had all the tapes,
Speaker 1: so there's still some evidence. So yeah, as we'll go
Speaker 1: ahead with this stuff now that and and now of
Speaker 1: course the jury has been informed as to Warren's transgressions
Speaker 1: while he was an informant, and so I we'll just
Speaker 1: continue and you know, you can bring it up an appeal, guys.
Speaker 1: And so they went ahead with that on the morning
Speaker 1: of December three. FBI agent Steve Skinner, remember him, he
Speaker 1: tested Sinner Agent Skinner. Yeah, uh, and he lets slipped
Speaker 1: at also did another thing about Warren Grace, which I
Speaker 1: just mentioned he was a paid informant, which again this
Speaker 1: is the first time that the defense found out about this.
Speaker 1: You can imagine they hit the roof. They we're very
Speaker 1: upset about not having been informed of this because I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously the guy's getting paid, he's got an incenter to
Speaker 1: just say whatever the prosecution wants, right, it damages his
Speaker 1: credibility with a jury, or at least it should, right,
Speaker 1: he becomes a yes man at that. Yeah. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: at this point, of course, Skinner went on to to
Speaker 1: actually admit to all of Warren's violations of this plea deal,
Speaker 1: which they had turned a blind eye too. The defense
Speaker 1: at this point made emotion for dismissal of charges based
Speaker 1: on prosecutorial misconduct and again on this FBI prosecution cover
Speaker 1: up of all these crimes of this guy really who
Speaker 1: should not have been a forortant informant. He should have
Speaker 1: been arrested and locked up. And Judge Coral has refused
Speaker 1: to dismiss, but he did agree to schedule an investigation
Speaker 1: into the way Luna and the FBI had handled their informant.
Speaker 1: So this is not good news for Jonathan Luna and
Speaker 1: also for if FBI and Skinner definitely could be a
Speaker 1: career in any kind of thing. This investigation into the informant,
Speaker 1: but also the fact that he had basically withheld evidence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so it looks like he was gaming the system anyway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now it's it's it's it's prosecutorial miscon act. Really, And
Speaker 1: so Jonathan lewn has started that week for just a
Speaker 1: few days before with this easy slammed on drug case
Speaker 1: and now two days later it's blowing up in his
Speaker 1: face big time. And I'm not a lawyer, but I
Speaker 1: I think that he could have probably been disbarred for
Speaker 1: his conduct and withholding that information, it's possible. So we're
Speaker 1: talking abouh losing his job and just a loss of livelihood.
Speaker 1: You can't be a lawyer anymore, professional disgrace. And probably
Speaker 1: a few other people in the attorney's office the FBI
Speaker 1: were also feeling a little bit of heete. I'm sure
Speaker 1: an agent Skinner was not happy about how this whole
Speaker 1: thing was turning out. Yeah, he didn't want to, probably not,
Speaker 1: And so this thing had to be had to be
Speaker 1: made to go away. And this is why Jonathan Luna
Speaker 1: approached the defense lawyers a little bit later over the
Speaker 1: lunch break and offered them a plea deal, which would
Speaker 1: solve everybody's problem, right, And but of course Pointdex, do
Speaker 1: you remember, he's the guy who's want who's going to
Speaker 1: be tried for murder. Yeah, he knew he was holding
Speaker 1: a strong hand, and so he demanded to charge against
Speaker 1: the point extra be dropped for murder and literally agreed
Speaker 1: to this. But there was a hitch, which is that
Speaker 1: federal law makes it illegal, essentially to plea bargain away
Speaker 1: a case that is murder if it is drug related.
Speaker 1: So so then couldn't have gone away. He couldn't actually
Speaker 1: make the case go away that easy. Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: he was kind of copying between a rock and a
Speaker 1: hard place. And unfortunately for him, he couldn't really gloss
Speaker 1: over the drug angle of this whole case, because he remember,
Speaker 1: he was going to prosecute the murder, and he'd already
Speaker 1: he'd already built his case. He'd already submitted briefs and
Speaker 1: documents and all kinds of stuff documenting for the discovery process,
Speaker 1: right the documenting that this murder was indeed very very
Speaker 1: much drug related. So so he's got to square this
Speaker 1: circle somehow. He's the judge. Judge Quarrels was informed of
Speaker 1: this pending plea agreement, told Luna to have it ready
Speaker 1: in the morning for him at nine durty the next day.
Speaker 1: So he goes back to his office to do a
Speaker 1: little creative writing. But like I said, it appears he
Speaker 1: was having a little trouble squaring that circle, because when
Speaker 1: he left his office later that night, the Smith agreement
Speaker 1: was all done. The point Extra agreement was only about
Speaker 1: half done. They were found the next day on his
Speaker 1: computer by another lawyer in the office. And so Jonathan
Speaker 1: Lane had perhaps was looking at professional ruin with the
Speaker 1: way this this case was going. Now, could this possibility
Speaker 1: of professional ruin and loss of life could have drive
Speaker 1: a man to kill himself. I would say, yeah, sometimes
Speaker 1: it does, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, it just depends. I
Speaker 1: mean a lot of it depends on all kinds of
Speaker 1: stuff in varnerables. I mean, we don't know. But I
Speaker 1: definitely I would say that that it was, you know,
Speaker 1: definitely entirely possible that his very very bad day was
Speaker 1: the thing that sort of tipped him over into the
Speaker 1: into the whole suicide thing. And yeah, that had the
Speaker 1: possibility of working at best Buy. It's not the worst
Speaker 1: job ever, Probably not, I have Actually that's the worst job.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think, you know, the guys have
Speaker 1: to go down and like dig through poop or probably
Speaker 1: a bad job. Oh, sanitary or sanitation workers. Probably not
Speaker 1: a very fun job. Yeah, they're paid really well, and
Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta proved that's a union job. I think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I forget. I would rather dig poop all day than
Speaker 1: stand at the in the door of Walmart. Give me
Speaker 1: the poop. Yeah, let's go back to our case here.
Speaker 1: And as for the plea agreements that they were found
Speaker 1: on Luna's computer, as I said the next morning on
Speaker 1: the fourth, another lawyer in the office quickly finished writing
Speaker 1: the point dexter agreement delivered to the court. It was signed,
Speaker 1: everybody lived happily ever after, except Jonathan Luna. Except Jonathan Luna.
Speaker 1: Even if the plea deal was wow, a little hanky,
Speaker 1: it was kind of pretty illegal. That kind of that
Speaker 1: kind of puts a nail in the suicide theory because
Speaker 1: if a second lawyer came in and had to finish
Speaker 1: the plea deal in a couple of hours and it
Speaker 1: was still up did and they didn't know about Luna
Speaker 1: at that point, not yet. I don't believe they knew.
Speaker 1: It wasn't as if they were motivated, oh well, let's
Speaker 1: just get this take care of. Because the guy died,
Speaker 1: then well that proves it the drive of oh god,
Speaker 1: this whole thing is gonna fall apart. Maybe. I mean,
Speaker 1: if he's as good as a lawyer as he appeared
Speaker 1: to have been, I may have known that he could
Speaker 1: push that through. I feel like sometimes all it takes
Speaker 1: is a new set of eyes to come up with
Speaker 1: the way to square that circle, the circle or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. I mean, you know, sometimes it's it's it
Speaker 1: can seem like you know, in his brain on top
Speaker 1: of everything else. It's like, oh my god, there's no
Speaker 1: way I can make this legal. I'm already in trouble
Speaker 1: and kind of you know, in bad shape with things
Speaker 1: maybe being illegal. If I push this through and it's
Speaker 1: also illegal, it just adds to the pile of stuff
Speaker 1: that people can bring against me. I don't know how
Speaker 1: to figure this out. And then a new lawyer comes
Speaker 1: in and it's like, I don't know, Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: an easy solution in my brain, but other people would
Speaker 1: never think of it. Well, and also it maybe if
Speaker 1: these rumors are true that Luna's boss didn't like him
Speaker 1: it was out to get him, then lunas boss obviously
Speaker 1: would catch this for a reason, and it would be
Speaker 1: the sort of thing that he could actually you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know how much of a stink you want
Speaker 1: to make this as embarrassing to your office, so it's
Speaker 1: one of the things that get it would get Luna fired.
Speaker 1: But the other guy, the Odlaire, probably talked to the
Speaker 1: same boss and said, g boss, what do you want
Speaker 1: to do and the boss probably said just make this
Speaker 1: go away. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is that
Speaker 1: I know the boss's name is or something but um,
Speaker 1: I mean he didn't like Lunas. So it may be
Speaker 1: that Luna realized that even if the plea deal could
Speaker 1: be completed and go through, the boss was going to
Speaker 1: fire him. But at that point it's the boss fires him.
Speaker 1: While it might be a bit of professional disgrace, it's
Speaker 1: not professional ruined because he still would have his license
Speaker 1: and theory and it's still able to practice law. Well,
Speaker 1: unless the boss decided to say, make make a stink
Speaker 1: out of the whole withholding of evidence and just say, look,
Speaker 1: I'm going to refer to you for to whatever they
Speaker 1: have they had their office affairs of some kind, like
Speaker 1: the office and the office of Professional Responsibility of like
Speaker 1: the FBI. Has I suspect yeah that if if you know,
Speaker 1: you go, you go and say, yeah, I got fired
Speaker 1: from my last job because I m withheld a lot
Speaker 1: of evidence and wrote an illegal plea deal. That's going
Speaker 1: to throw up some flax. You're gonna better, Just like
Speaker 1: Willie mccraig. People who get fired from those kind of jobs,
Speaker 1: they go into private practice because then you don't have
Speaker 1: to tell anybody that I left working for the US government.
Speaker 1: Because there it's a croc and a crooked, just bureaucracy
Speaker 1: and putting away poor people. And I hated it, right
Speaker 1: because I love the poor. That'll be five. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: let's uh, but let's talk about let's go back to
Speaker 1: the murder theory for a second. Um, so we already
Speaker 1: talked a second back for us just a second, because
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of the well I don't know
Speaker 1: how much, but I know that people that have actually
Speaker 1: been at least one book written about this case, a
Speaker 1: lot of intimation is out there that perhaps, uh, it
Speaker 1: might have been FBI et cetera, d J some people
Speaker 1: in the government who murdered Luna for the simple reason that, yeah,
Speaker 1: there was this this big explosive, scandalous cluster that had
Speaker 1: come up in this trial, and it was going to
Speaker 1: because of because of the uh, the defense had found
Speaker 1: out about Warren Grace's conduct. And the fact of the
Speaker 1: matter is that they basically protected a real menace to
Speaker 1: society out there in the street at the instead of
Speaker 1: arresting the guy. That's a little scandalous, and maybe some
Speaker 1: people wanted to keep that covered up, and maybe Jonathan
Speaker 1: Luna basically said, you know, guys, I can't I can't
Speaker 1: cover this up in good conscious. I can't conscious, I
Speaker 1: can't do that. And so they decided, well, okay, Jonathan,
Speaker 1: and what we're gonna do is find somebody us to
Speaker 1: write that write that agreement, and we're gonna whack you.
Speaker 1: So so wait, so you have turned what you initially
Speaker 1: stated as revisiting the murder theory into a giant government
Speaker 1: cover up theory conspiracy. You've actually added your fourth theory. Well,
Speaker 1: and the reason, well it's murder though, But the reason
Speaker 1: I brought I just bring it up is I don't
Speaker 1: want any of our listeners to start doing a little
Speaker 1: reading on this. And it's like, wow, they totally missed
Speaker 1: this whole government conspiracy thing, but well I picked up
Speaker 1: on it. So if you look at that, I mean,
Speaker 1: what's you know, I could see where if Luna was
Speaker 1: not going to be a team player, they said, well,
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do about this? And so they
Speaker 1: they arrange are going to be killed and then they
Speaker 1: sort of, you know, they pursue the investigation as good
Speaker 1: as well as they can, and then they just start
Speaker 1: leaking all this stuff to the press. As I mentioned,
Speaker 1: the campaign kind of a smear campaign, and and and
Speaker 1: then and then it's like, if they find any evidence
Speaker 1: of any actual murder at the side, they just sort
Speaker 1: of quietly, you know, ditch that and and they keep
Speaker 1: leaking stuff and leaking stuff, and then finally he's just like,
Speaker 1: I must have been suicide. That's the best we can
Speaker 1: come up with. So that's that's kind of the theory
Speaker 1: that's out there. But he was right, I mean, he
Speaker 1: was actively writing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well he was, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, but you know, you never know. He might
Speaker 1: have had a change of heart. He had at least
Speaker 1: one conversation on the phone was somebody that we don't
Speaker 1: know who it was, so he might have had a
Speaker 1: change of heart. But here's the here's the deal is
Speaker 1: that if he had a change of heart and just said, look,
Speaker 1: I just can't write this, then somebody could have said
Speaker 1: some of somebody else from his office or whoever, could
Speaker 1: have just said, Okay, here's what you do, Jonathan. We
Speaker 1: just need you to keep your mouth shut. You don't
Speaker 1: have to write it. All you gotta do go to
Speaker 1: the man's room, go to the dirtiest toilet, drink a
Speaker 1: cup of water out of that toilet, then go to
Speaker 1: the er. And you know, because you're gonna be sick
Speaker 1: as a dog and you've got incredible basically become indisposed,
Speaker 1: and then somebody else will step been and write it
Speaker 1: for you. We'll make the whole thing go away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would have been an easier way driving around for
Speaker 1: four or four and a half hours in the countryside,
Speaker 1: stabbing and repeatedly with a knife, you know, and trying
Speaker 1: to find a good suitable spot for you know, for
Speaker 1: the final Kudi gras. Yeah, it does seem to me
Speaker 1: that if the FBI were gonna kill him, Yeah, they
Speaker 1: would have done a better job of it. You would
Speaker 1: think it seems like a really random, weird murder, don't
Speaker 1: you think. Yeah, I mean yeah, but it's just yea
Speaker 1: also random and weird. Well, and here's the weird thing
Speaker 1: is the guy's office was in freaking Baltimore for Christ's six.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one of those cities that alternates with
Speaker 1: like Detroit, New Orleans and a few other places the
Speaker 1: murder capital. Yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't just
Speaker 1: take him out again to like one of the bad,
Speaker 1: the worst neighborhoods and you know, shoot him once it
Speaker 1: looked like a muck. Yeah, I still don't think that
Speaker 1: it was an accident, and I still don't think it
Speaker 1: was a suicide. No, I agree of the stuff that
Speaker 1: I have read about, I mean, the cuts on his hands,
Speaker 1: I'm not in agreement with that, but I can get
Speaker 1: behind that maybe he did that to himself, though I
Speaker 1: would think that if your hands are bleeding, you're you're
Speaker 1: gonna start having a hard time hanging onto a knife
Speaker 1: just because it's gonna be slippery. But let's just ignore
Speaker 1: that the fact that there are some cuts on his
Speaker 1: head and his his back that seemed to be hard
Speaker 1: to get to, and his genitals, because again, no, no
Speaker 1: dude that isn't into that kind of pleasure pain stuff
Speaker 1: is just gonna willingly start playing with his junk with
Speaker 1: a knife to try and to misdirected like that. Seems
Speaker 1: like that's something someone does when they are does dudes
Speaker 1: do when they are trying to make someone suffer? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but no, it is if it happened, right, Because that's
Speaker 1: the big problem with this case is that we don't
Speaker 1: know if that's actually what happened. It could be that
Speaker 1: there it was just a bunch of kind of shallow cuts,
Speaker 1: you know, around and then oops, a slip and you
Speaker 1: cut your core artery or you know, maybe do it unintentionally.
Speaker 1: But there's no there's no real way to know right now.
Speaker 1: Someday in the future ideally will will know because if
Speaker 1: that is the case, absolutely, I mean even without that,
Speaker 1: I do think it was probably a murder. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I just don't know why the mortician would have any
Speaker 1: incentive to lie about somebody slicing up his ghibli bits. Yeah. Again,
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is this is one of the
Speaker 1: irritating things is that law enforce was still keeping it open.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why. It might be that there is
Speaker 1: something really hanging going on with law enforcements, so they're
Speaker 1: keeping it open so they don't have to allow people
Speaker 1: to look at their files. Yeah yeah, yeah, there there
Speaker 1: is a lot of conspiracy stuff about that, you know.
Speaker 1: And another odd thing too, is that in all the
Speaker 1: leaks that have come out, all the statements that have
Speaker 1: come out from law enforcements about all these things, that
Speaker 1: all these reasons that he might have killed himself, they
Speaker 1: never wants to mention the smith point extra trial. It's
Speaker 1: a possible motivator for for a suicide. Interesting that, don't
Speaker 1: you think maybe they're trying to expare them a little
Speaker 1: professional embarrassment. I don't know, but it seems to me
Speaker 1: that it's bad day in court was as strong a
Speaker 1: motivator for suicide as most other things that were going
Speaker 1: on his life, and they didn't even mention it. It's
Speaker 1: kind of interesting or something. Yeah, I don't know. Uh
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna come down on the side of suicide
Speaker 1: just because I'm feeling, you know, I don't know, kind
Speaker 1: of a strapper us today. Well, okay, that's it for
Speaker 1: this week. If you've got any theories of your own, well,
Speaker 1: you can contact us at our email, which is Thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. We also have
Speaker 1: a website, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com in case you
Speaker 1: didn't know that, where you can find our episodes and
Speaker 1: you can find links to go you know, by merchical
Speaker 1: stuff like that. We have links to our Instagram and
Speaker 1: our and all of our social of all our social media,
Speaker 1: we've got links there. Yeah. So yes, go to the website,
Speaker 1: and you can also download and listen to us on
Speaker 1: iTunes where you can subscribe. You can give us a
Speaker 1: rating and review high rating, great review, and you can
Speaker 1: stream us of course from anywhere, and most importantly of all,
Speaker 1: Stitcher Premium. Of course, we're on Facebook, where we have
Speaker 1: a group in a page. Um like, the page joined
Speaker 1: the group, don't friend the page. And uh we're also
Speaker 1: on Twitter, where we are thinking sideways and we have
Speaker 1: a subreddit thinking sideways of course. Oh yeah, and of
Speaker 1: course we are on Instagram. We're we're just got posting
Speaker 1: all kinds of fantastic stuff on much so much and
Speaker 1: of course Twitter and where there's all kinds of bird
Speaker 1: based things happening. Yeah, yeah, I know, silly twit. Oh god,
Speaker 1: you're supposed to make funs about the mystery that we've covered. No,
Speaker 1: wait till we get there. Yeah there, Okay, well I
Speaker 1: think it is about that time. Time for the bad pounds, Devin,
Speaker 1: you got any bad pounds? Yeah, Steve has what. I'm
Speaker 1: sure it's been a stabbing good time. That wasn't that great? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Oh come on, I'm a cut off. That was even
Speaker 1: less great. All right, I got nothing. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to make fun of some poor guys murder Sah, that's
Speaker 1: just because I cut you out and you're upset about it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're out class me, alright, see you guys next Week
Speaker 1: by Guys. I gotta get into a knife