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Speaker 1: This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought you by

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Speaker 1: Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I

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Speaker 1: am Joe, joined as always by Steve and and we've

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Speaker 1: got another cool mystery to talk about this week. We're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the very strange death of prosecutor

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Luna. Yeah, yeah, interesting case, this one. It really

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's a twisty turney one for what appears

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Speaker 1: to be so simple on the outside. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: still confounding people. Fifteen years later. The case is still open.

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Speaker 1: It's still a reward out for information. Before I get

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Speaker 1: into our story that I want to just give a

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Speaker 1: shout out to our listeners. Several people suggested this, including

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Speaker 1: Robert Stan, Judith and Monique and probably a few others.

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Speaker 1: It's yeah, we've had it on our radar for a

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Speaker 1: long time here at tsph Q. So let's start our story.

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Speaker 1: Our story begins on the morning of Thursday, December four,

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Speaker 1: two thousand three, five thirty am, Jonathan Luda, federal prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: was found dead in a ditch in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: just south of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. His body was faced

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Speaker 1: down in a very small creek. He had been stabbed

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Speaker 1: thirty six times with a small knife and also had

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Speaker 1: what was described as a traumatic wound on the right

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Speaker 1: side of his head. So, okay, there we go. We

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Speaker 1: got our body. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. Before we start

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Speaker 1: telling all the great gory details, I want to talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about Jonathan Luna. He was thirty eight

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Speaker 1: years old, an assistant U S Attorney at the Baltimore,

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Speaker 1: Maryland office. He was married. His wife was a doctor.

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Speaker 1: They had been married for ten years. They had two kids.

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Speaker 1: They had a townhouse in a suburb just southwest of Baltimore,

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Speaker 1: and Luna was actually kind of from humble beginnings. He

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Speaker 1: was born and raised in the South Bronx, New York,

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Speaker 1: kind of a tough neighborhood. And but he was always

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Speaker 1: kind of vocation into school unlike a lot of his classmates,

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Speaker 1: and got himself through law school past the bar, had

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Speaker 1: several different attorney jobs until you got this. What I

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Speaker 1: have heard is a really good job at the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Attorney's Office. Apparently it's it's a considered to be a

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Speaker 1: great opportunity, pretty high at the ladder it is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so he'd done well for himself considering where he came from.

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Speaker 1: So he's been doing that job for several years. But

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Speaker 1: unfortunately it all came to it end. On the morning

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Speaker 1: of December four, two thousand three, Jonathan Lena's body was

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Speaker 1: found behind a well drilling business. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: name them because poor guys, they probably got enough phone

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Speaker 1: calls about this one. I'm gonna I'm not but that

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Speaker 1: they were on lookated on Dry Tavern Road, which is

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Speaker 1: less than a thousand feet south of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, uh,

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Speaker 1: and just on the eastern edge of the town of Denver, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: Tire tracts indicated that Luda had driven onto the property

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Speaker 1: and passed the building, parked behind the building for a

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Speaker 1: little period of time, and then from there the car

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Speaker 1: was driven further west to the end of the site

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Speaker 1: and into this sort of cricks last ditch at the

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Speaker 1: rear of the property. And they call it a creek,

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Speaker 1: but you know, and I guess it is a very

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Speaker 1: tiny little creek. And it wasn't as if the car

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Speaker 1: had driven into the just kind of tipped over the

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Speaker 1: edge and front stopped, front tires kind of went over

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Speaker 1: the edge. Yeah, the engine was still running. The car

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Speaker 1: was not you know, wrecked or anything like that. And

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Speaker 1: then Jonathan Luna's body was found below the car, faced

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Speaker 1: down in the water. Driver's side door and the fender

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Speaker 1: were smeared with blood. There was blood inside the car,

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Speaker 1: including some on the floor on the back seat of

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Speaker 1: the car, a fair amount from like a pool of

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Speaker 1: blood back there, yeah yea uh. And the blood in

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Speaker 1: the back seat, of course, led law enforcement to wonder

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Speaker 1: if perhaps Luna had been abducted, maybe forced to lay

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Speaker 1: down in the back of the car for a while. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe not, we'll see. Um, he was well dressed.

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Speaker 1: He was dressed in a business suit, tie, black overcoat.

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Speaker 1: His wallet was still in his pocket. There were twenty

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Speaker 1: dollar bills strewn about the inside of the car. Uh

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Speaker 1: So robbery did not appear to be a motive in

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Speaker 1: this particular crime. But it did, and I frankly look

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Speaker 1: like a murder. Yeah. Although oddly, when the autopsy results

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Speaker 1: came back, it turned out that Jonathan Luna had died

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Speaker 1: from drowning and not from being stabbed thirty six times,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of odd when you think about it.

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Speaker 1: But you can. You can drown in an inch of water.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's possible, and this is an example of it. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, he would have died of his wounds probably,

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Speaker 1: it was just the water got him first. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say, it's pretty easy to drown when you've

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Speaker 1: been stabbed so much that you're just dying from good

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Speaker 1: point that too, if you're just totally passed out, you've

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Speaker 1: lost so much blood and you're just laying face down

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Speaker 1: in a creek, pretty easy way to drown. That's a

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Speaker 1: good point. Well, so, how did he get to that point,

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Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. The last time, the last

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Speaker 1: night he was seen alive. The night before December three,

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Speaker 1: he was at home working. He'd been prosecuting a drug

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Speaker 1: trafficking case, and on the third day of the trial,

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Speaker 1: he had decided to kind of plea agreement with the defendants.

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Speaker 1: There were two of them in this case. He was

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Speaker 1: writing up these agreements, one for each, so you can

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Speaker 1: have them ready in court. The next morning, he left

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Speaker 1: us how us around eleven PM and went into the office. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Live very far away, not that far away now, pretty quick.

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Speaker 1: I mean, actually he was really close to a major

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Speaker 1: road free with slash freeway that dumped out right downtown

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Speaker 1: near his office. Uh. And then after that he left

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Speaker 1: his office at p M. He left his glasses and

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Speaker 1: his cell phone on his desk, which is considered odd

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Speaker 1: by a lot of people at work. At work. Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: it's believed that he needed his glasses for driving, although

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure how badly he needed his glasses for driving. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: like I see that actually some driving that night, and

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Speaker 1: apparently he did just fine, So I don't think he

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Speaker 1: needed him all that bad. It might have been like

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Speaker 1: some My wife wears glasses, but she doesn't need them

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Speaker 1: all the time, but she really likes to have her

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Speaker 1: glasses at night because it helps cut down the glare

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Speaker 1: and and that and you know, makes it easier to

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Speaker 1: understand road signs. But she can still drive as if

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Speaker 1: she was you know. It's not as if he was

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Speaker 1: blind as a bat without that. No, no, exactly. I

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Speaker 1: mean I I don't have to wear my glasses when

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Speaker 1: I drive, but especially at night, I do prefer to

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Speaker 1: you because yeah, probably now, it's just it's really a

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Speaker 1: pain to try to read signs after dark, you know,

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Speaker 1: without your glasses on. Anyway, back to enough of that,

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Speaker 1: but also the phone is considered odd by people. That's

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Speaker 1: but that's people who are posting on Reddit in the

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Speaker 1: year twenty seventeen or eighteen, and people they can't imagine

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Speaker 1: being away from their phone. Yeah this was, yeah, this

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Speaker 1: was two thousand three. When this happens, people weren't, you know,

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Speaker 1: as married to their phone. So I don't put a

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Speaker 1: lot of weight on that. Well, obviously, the police were

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Speaker 1: interested in knowing where Jonathan Luna went between p m.

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Speaker 1: When he left his office and five thirty A and

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Speaker 1: when his dead body is discovered, so naturally, Uh, they

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Speaker 1: checked of course bank and credit card debit card records,

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Speaker 1: and also toll road receipts, because there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: toll roads on the East coast. We have none out

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Speaker 1: here in the West, but they're just all the well

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Speaker 1: bridges and that's about it. Yeah, and even those are

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Speaker 1: few in farms between. Yeah, they kind of are. Yeah. Actually,

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Speaker 1: we California has tolls. Yeah, four years chuck full of tolls,

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Speaker 1: and the Oregon doesn't. That's why they have better roads

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Speaker 1: than we do. That trap, yeah, but they have they've

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Speaker 1: easy passes, yeah, exactly, that's that's that's what people do

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Speaker 1: because otherwise if you have to stop and actually give

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Speaker 1: some change to a guy, oh my god, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: fifty cents short, Yeah, which means waiting in line and stuff.

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Speaker 1: So they have easy passes. You just sails through. It's

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Speaker 1: just a little like electronic thing and it links up

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Speaker 1: to the thing and they do some places they do

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Speaker 1: them by um license plate anymore too, because the cameras

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Speaker 1: can read them, and that reading your license plate all

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Speaker 1: the time anyway. So yeah, and of course the extra

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Speaker 1: textually mentioning that because it turns out Jonathan Luna had

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Speaker 1: one in his car. Yeah, he had an easy pass. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So between bank records and his easy pass records, they

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Speaker 1: were able to reconstruct his little journey. Uh. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to give you the whole timeline, but but

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Speaker 1: you can find it online if you really want to

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Speaker 1: see it. It's in a lot of different places. The

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Speaker 1: brief version is he left Baltimore, drove northeast across Maryland

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Speaker 1: of Delaware, made his way to Newark, Delaware, where he

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Speaker 1: took two hundred bucks out of a a t M

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Speaker 1: and then from nart to Peers. He continued into maybe

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Speaker 1: New Jersey, then over to Philadelphia, headed northwest to the

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Speaker 1: town of King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Welcome up when nast

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Speaker 1: name by the way, it's great. Yeah, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you lived there. You call it kop You just

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Speaker 1: call it k or Prussia. What do you call yourselves?

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Speaker 1: And royalty, that's what you call yourself, your highness. So

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Speaker 1: he but he bought gas there. Yeah, he thought there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a little a little thing right off the turnpike.

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Speaker 1: There's not even a formal exit. There's just a gas

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Speaker 1: station right there. But gas also a snack in a soda,

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Speaker 1: being paid with his either debity, I think it's debit card.

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Speaker 1: And from there he continued west on the turnpike to

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Speaker 1: exit two eighties six, which is just on the front

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Speaker 1: of the eastern edge of Denver and past Pennsylvania. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Exe Denver. When when there is a town that is

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Speaker 1: the same name as a major town somewhere else, you

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Speaker 1: can get can using so I just want to make

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Speaker 1: sure it's Denver p A. Yeah, it is Denver p A. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to you. Also went to Newark, Delaware. I

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Speaker 1: never even knew until he researched the story there was Newark, Delaware.

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Speaker 1: Nobody else knew either, even the people that lived there.

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Speaker 1: At that point he got off the exit, he had

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Speaker 1: to pass through a toll booth and pay, and and

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Speaker 1: there he presented a paper ticket. And this is this

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Speaker 1: is one thing that happened is he was using his

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Speaker 1: easy pass when he started his little journey, but then

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Speaker 1: he switched to cash for some reason. I would wonder

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Speaker 1: if maybe it's because his easy pass only has a

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Speaker 1: certain range. You know, they're only good and certain Remember,

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Speaker 1: so you're here tri met the rail system. They used

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Speaker 1: to have zones and you could pay for zone one,

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Speaker 1: zone one and two, zone one, two and three when

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Speaker 1: you bought things, and I wonderful, how well, But I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if maybe he was in some weird government paid

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Speaker 1: program that only allowed him a certain radius. Who knows,

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Speaker 1: It's probably not that important, or maybe he just didn't

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Speaker 1: want people know him where he went. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: And here's question too, is um, you know most of

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Speaker 1: these things would have cameras attached to them. Is it

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Speaker 1: confirmed that he is the one who you know, went

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Speaker 1: and took two hundred dollars out that you did all

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Speaker 1: these little things? Uh, not necessarily, you know. They obviously

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Speaker 1: they checked the camera in the A t M. And

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Speaker 1: I've heard two versions of this. One says it wasn't

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Speaker 1: working period and the other one camera yeah and then

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Speaker 1: a t M. The other one I heard is that

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Speaker 1: it was working and that he had nobody, nobody with

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Speaker 1: him and he appeared calm and normal and uninjured, so

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Speaker 1: you know, to the two versions of the same thing.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know. And then the other other place

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Speaker 1: they were able to find footage was at that gas

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Speaker 1: station that he stopped at in King of Prussia, and

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Speaker 1: their camera was working, but he never appears on film there.

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Speaker 1: So somehow he managed to evade that camera. I don't

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Speaker 1: enough intentionally, probably just accidentally. It just wasn't quite putting

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Speaker 1: in the right direction. So yeah, they didn't really have

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Speaker 1: any footage of that there. There were also a couple

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Speaker 1: of employees that gas station who remembered him, or at

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Speaker 1: least they said they did, and they said there was

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Speaker 1: nothing odd going on with him. But anyway, he as

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Speaker 1: I said, he left the turnpike at ex at two

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Speaker 1: six uh, and then he circled back on the south

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Speaker 1: side of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, went back eastward until he

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Speaker 1: got the Dry Tavern Road, interesting name, Dry Tavern and

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Speaker 1: then from there, yeah, I know, what's the point, right,

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Speaker 1: But then he goes north and turns on to the

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Speaker 1: property of the drilling place, and you know, we know

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Speaker 1: what the rest is. He is stabbed by somebody or

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Speaker 1: something and he times weird. But the weird thing about

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Speaker 1: the timeline of his night is it took him roughly

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Speaker 1: three hours to arrive on Dry Dry Tavern Road, straight Tavern,

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Speaker 1: Dry Tavern Road. He took a round about root, right,

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Speaker 1: But if you map the route that he took it's

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Speaker 1: about an hour and a half drive when there's no traffic,

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of unaccounted time there, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that gives a lot

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Speaker 1: of people paw is what was he doing in the

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Speaker 1: other hour and a half? Well, yeah, there is there

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Speaker 1: is a chunk of time there which is like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff that he was. Well, we

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Speaker 1: caught him here going using an easy pass which saw

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Speaker 1: the A T M here, So that's kind of accounted

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Speaker 1: for because even they would have taken him about that

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Speaker 1: one to get from A to B. But there is

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Speaker 1: that one little patch whereas about an hour or so

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Speaker 1: hour and a half maybe even though just totally on

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Speaker 1: account of time, they don't know where he was and

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Speaker 1: what he was doing exactly, which you know, he may

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Speaker 1: well just have been driving around still or maybe he

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Speaker 1: stopped off to buy drugs by a gun. I mean,

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Speaker 1: who knows, see a movie. I mean, we don't know.

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Speaker 1: So the so the local authorities, which would be the

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Speaker 1: Lancaster County Coroner's Office, ruled the case of homicide based

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Speaker 1: on their autopsy results. Again, there were thirty six stab wounds,

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Speaker 1: so that is kind of suspicious. Plus there was that

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Speaker 1: head wound, and they don't say, I mean, they haven't

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Speaker 1: actually released a lot of information. The case is still open,

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Speaker 1: so that means a lot of this stuff is still unavailable.

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Speaker 1: So when they say head, well, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: that means. He was hit with a rock baseball all

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Speaker 1: bad at Crowbar. You don't know. I mean, we just

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Speaker 1: don't know exactly the nature of that wound. Um, so

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Speaker 1: it sounds like it's notable. Most of the stab wounds

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Speaker 1: were very shallow. In fact, you know, almost all of them.

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Speaker 1: They were what they called pricks, just little teeny stabs

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Speaker 1: and so not really deep stabs at all. But for

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Speaker 1: them were pretty deep. Only one could really be called fatal,

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Speaker 1: which was a stab in the neck that partially severed

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Speaker 1: one of Jonathan Luna's caarated arteries. Those are pretty important

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Speaker 1: major so if Luna had not drowned, then certainly he

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Speaker 1: would have led out from this wound anyway, there's no

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Speaker 1: doubt about that. And as for the thirty two stab

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Speaker 1: wounds that weren't deep, these could be interpreted two different ways.

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Speaker 1: One is torture. Somebody's just stabbed him a lot, just

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Speaker 1: out of sheer sudism or something, or the other way

290
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Speaker 1: you can interpret them is is hesitation marks, which we've

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Speaker 1: talked about before, because um, there are those shallow wounds

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Speaker 1: that suicidal people make before they finally work up the

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Speaker 1: will to make a final deep cut. You a lot,

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Speaker 1: though it's a lot typically from what I've heard that

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Speaker 1: there's usually no more than maybe ten hesitation marks and

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Speaker 1: a typical suicide. So thirty two is a hell of

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Speaker 1: a lot. So that's odd. That would argue kind of

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Speaker 1: for torture, wouldn't it, You would think, Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: also there was the presence of defensive wounds or maybe not.

300
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Speaker 1: There was a leak from a federal law enforcement agent

301
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Speaker 1: that to a reporter that his hands were all all

302
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Speaker 1: slashed up and everything, although it turns out apparently that's

303
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Speaker 1: not true, that the medical examiners said that all the

304
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Speaker 1: stabs were basically run his chest, shoulders neck. See now

305
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Speaker 1: there's you gave us that article that was what Mr

306
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Speaker 1: Luna's midnight ride, and the guy who wrote that wrote

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Speaker 1: some other articles chasing this story and said that he

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Speaker 1: actually talked to the mortician that dealt with the body

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Speaker 1: and said that the cuts on the hands were so

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Speaker 1: much that they had first tried to stitch him together

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Speaker 1: for the for the you know, for the funeral, and

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Speaker 1: in the end for the viewing, they had to put

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Speaker 1: his hands in gloves because they were just so sliced

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Speaker 1: up they couldn't stitch it closed and hide it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that would lead one to believe that they're actually

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Speaker 1: caught up more. And that person also indicated that the

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Speaker 1: cuts on his back, because there were cuts on his

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Speaker 1: neck and his shoulders, they were more around the middle

319
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Speaker 1: of his back, kind of near his shoulder blades, out

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Speaker 1: what appeared to be out of reach of what a

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Speaker 1: person could normally reach. You how you get that itch

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Speaker 1: between your shoulder blades and you can't get it? That's

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Speaker 1: the only place where I get itches. Yes, but that's

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Speaker 1: they indicated that there were cuts back there. So that's

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Speaker 1: why I questioned the wounds weren't as bad as as

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Speaker 1: they were. But I've I've seen incredible, very credible sources

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Speaker 1: that say that all that is. Who has another another

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Speaker 1: claim that his crown him was slashed, and I've heard

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Speaker 1: but then the best it seems like the best sources

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Speaker 1: I've seen it just say that it was thirty six,

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Speaker 1: just around in places that were not impossible or came

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Speaker 1: to reach if he had self inflicted. The wounds morticians

333
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,840
Speaker 1: also the one who talked about the scrotum having several

334
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,760
Speaker 1: that did not appear to be anything that a man

335
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Speaker 1: would normally do to himself. Yeah, now, typically that's that's

336
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,000
Speaker 1: not a place we go to. Uh So, I I've

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00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,720
Speaker 1: got to say, that's that's kind of up in the

338
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,080
Speaker 1: air for me. It really is. I mean, obviously, if

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Speaker 1: he has a stab wound, like you know, between the

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Speaker 1: shoulder blades where he could not possibly have reached, that

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00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,720
Speaker 1: sort of changes things, do you know, it really does.

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Speaker 1: But so we're just gonna have to be agnostic on

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Speaker 1: that particular one. I think so based on our crime

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00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,760
Speaker 1: scene and the wounds and the evidence of his very

345
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,760
Speaker 1: long and explained car ride, it looked like, you know,

346
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 1: at first blush that Luna had been abducted perhaps and

347
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Speaker 1: then murdered, But then evidence from the car and the

348
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 1: crime scene didn't totally support that. There actually not at all.

349
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Speaker 1: There was There was nothing found in the car. There

350
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,760
Speaker 1: was a partial fingerprint that was unidentifiable, and a little

351
00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,640
Speaker 1: bit of blood that didn't belong to Jonathan Luna. Those

352
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,200
Speaker 1: are found in the car, but that was it. And

353
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,560
Speaker 1: other than that, there was no evidence that anybody other

354
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Speaker 1: than Luna had been in the car. No d n

355
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 1: A or hair or fingerprints or footprints or anything. But

356
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 1: most of the blood wasn't also at the crime scene, right,

357
00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,400
Speaker 1: I mean most of the blood was in the car. Yeah,

358
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 1: most of the blood was in the car. I assumed

359
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,400
Speaker 1: there was. There was some on the ground and near him,

360
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,160
Speaker 1: but it was the evidence. Wasn't that somebody had walked

361
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Speaker 1: up to him there and stabbed him thirty six times

362
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,119
Speaker 1: and he had stumbled down right the creek. Yeah? No, no, no,

363
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,440
Speaker 1: no evidence for that now, and no evidence that somebody

364
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 1: had been in the car with him either. Yeah, that

365
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 1: would be unfortunate, you know, to be out in your

366
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,919
Speaker 1: cruise to go to this total place we'd never expect

367
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Speaker 1: to see anybody and there's Mr. Serial killer waiting for you.

368
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,120
Speaker 1: On the other hand, there was no murder weapon there,

369
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Speaker 1: which would argue was kind of argue for murder because

370
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Speaker 1: we have a murder we would expect would take it

371
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,440
Speaker 1: away with him, right, and no murder weapon there. It

372
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,639
Speaker 1: would also explain why most of the blood was like

373
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Speaker 1: in the back of the car, not in the driver's

374
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 1: that would that would maybe be an indicator. Yeah, but

375
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 1: le's assuming assuming for a second that it was murdered,

376
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 1: than what would the motive be? And of course a

377
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,359
Speaker 1: lot of people wandered, federal prosecutor, did it has something

378
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 1: to do with this job? Maybe? So we'll talk a

379
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 1: little bit here about his last case because it's kind

380
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,640
Speaker 1: of relevant. I think this is the trial for which

381
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,879
Speaker 1: he was writing up the plea agreements on his last evening.

382
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,600
Speaker 1: There were a couple of guys Dion Smith, Walter Point

383
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 1: Dexter on federal trial for drug possession and trafficking, and

384
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,000
Speaker 1: this case wasn't going as well as it could have

385
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 1: for Luna, which is why he was cutting this plea deal.

386
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,359
Speaker 1: And you know, people have wondered, could his death have

387
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,919
Speaker 1: had something to do with this trial, for example, because

388
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 1: these two defendants were drug traffickers, one of them was

389
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 1: facing the death penalty. Yeah, people were thinking to have

390
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 1: something to do with these guys, and their lawyers actually

391
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,000
Speaker 1: poo pooed the idea because they said, well, naturally, but

392
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 1: actually they make a good argument for this because I

393
00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 1: mean it said that basically these guys were on the

394
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 1: verge of getting a really sweet plea deal that actually

395
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 1: was very favorable to them, and so they weren't they

396
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,080
Speaker 1: were actually happy, so that that might rule them out.

397
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. But then again, he was a prosecutor,

398
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,119
Speaker 1: so he would put other people away, so maybe somebody

399
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,440
Speaker 1: else was Yeah, so maybe somebody else was angry. Um.

400
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 1: But of course all that stuff was looked into, and

401
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 1: probably his most most dangerous psychotic cases and people like

402
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 1: that were all looked at, and they found no evidence

403
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 1: to to link anybody to it. Uh. At the investigation ground.

404
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 1: On about six or so weeks after the murder of

405
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: a small pen knife was found in the mud of

406
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,120
Speaker 1: the creek where his body had been found. So hey,

407
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,640
Speaker 1: that's progress. And police say that they believe it was Luna's.

408
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,919
Speaker 1: They won't say whether it has blood or fingerprints on it. Uh,

409
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 1: And they also don't say why they have concluded it

410
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 1: was Luna's knife. I don't know if they showed her

411
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 1: to his wife or initials that could be that could

412
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: be it too. I had no idea. So again, one

413
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,119
Speaker 1: of the one of these days when they closed his

414
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: case and we can look at these records, we might

415
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 1: find out. But a long about this time, this is

416
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: a long about February two thousand four as a case

417
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,360
Speaker 1: grinds on. Of course, it attracted a lot of press

418
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 1: attention on the East Coast, which case Jonathan Luna's case. Yeah, yeah,

419
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 1: I talked about Dion and so clarifying we're still talking

420
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: about We're back to looking about the Luna case. I

421
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 1: just wanted to talk about a little bit. I'll talk

422
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: a bit a bit more about Smith and point Extra

423
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 1: in their case here in a minute. But around this time,

424
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 1: leaks from law enforcement began to appear in the media.

425
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 1: It turns out they found that Luna had a profile

426
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: at least one internet dating website. Yeah, what was the one, actually, Madison? Yeah,

427
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,439
Speaker 1: probably that one, yeah dot Com. So naturally that this

428
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 1: raised the possibility that maybe he got murdered by something

429
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: very sketchy woman that he met online or her another

430
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: or maybe that too. That always raises that possibility. And

431
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: they also I found out that he had about bucks

432
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 1: in debt from a couple of credit cards at a

433
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 1: second mortgage, so you know, bucks, and that's not chicken feed,

434
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 1: although I guess for a guy making his wage, maybe

435
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 1: it's not a life ending deal either. I don't know. Yeah,

436
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: I imagine he was pretty well compensated in that position. Yeah.

437
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 1: But here's the thing about that is, I also feel

438
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 1: like I would like to make that assumption. But if

439
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,400
Speaker 1: you have that much money, you pay your your debt off, yeah,

440
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: you know you usually not always, not always, certainly there

441
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: are people who are irresponsible. But if it was well

442
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: within his means to pay off that debt, it's likely

443
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: been making a dentiant. If he's the kind of guy

444
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 1: that leads the house at eleven o'clock at nine and

445
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 1: goes to the office and then leaves the office at

446
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 1: midnight to come back home because he had to go

447
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: do more work, he may have just those kind of

448
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: details just didn't matter. Let it be on the minimum payment.

449
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: I'll take care of it eventually until and then he's

450
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: got an OS moment and you know, take care of it.

451
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,239
Speaker 1: Well maybe, I mean maybe his wife usually took care

452
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: of money stuff. Maybe I don't know. Speaking of his wife. Oh,

453
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: by the way, it turns out he also had at

454
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: least one credit card that she didn't know about. Ye, yeah,

455
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: which is not don't all. Yeah, I'm telling your wife,

456
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: I have bank accounts that woman doesn't know about. Don't

457
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 1: tell her she doesn't doesn't listen to the podcast. Thank god? Yeah,

458
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: thank god. That the other reason I'm spilling the beans here.

459
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,479
Speaker 1: Actually nobody she knows listens and I don't have an

460
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: insurance policy on her thought, Yeah I do. But anyway,

461
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: what else? Oh? Yeah, and I don't know how how

462
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 1: hanky this is. Apparently he taken a lot about explayed

463
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: trips to Philadelphia, and he took four just in the

464
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: month before he died. Nobody really knows why he did that. Yeah,

465
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: that could be uh, And there was actually had met

466
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: a woman named Ashley Madison and was going to visit her.

467
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 1: Not the dating website. You just met an actual person. Well,

468
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: if you're gonna have a dating website, I mean, if

469
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: you're going to be a Skis and have a dating

470
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: profile while you're married, it behooves you to have your

471
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: dating profile, say you live in a different place, so

472
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: that if your wife for some reason also was a

473
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 1: dating profile, or if she goes on to find you,

474
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't that be a rude? And speaking of us, I'm

475
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: sure there's got to be at least several women in

476
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: American named Ashley Madison. And how do they feel about it?

477
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 1: I wanted I bet they do. Uh, Okay, where are

478
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: we at out of that? They really are having a

479
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: great time. Okay. There's one other thing I wanted to mention,

480
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: which is a possible stresser in Luna's life, which is

481
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: the year before, in two thousand two, he was prosecuting

482
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: a bank robbery case and some cash was brought into

483
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: the courtroom as evidence in three large plastic bags and

484
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, Luna and an FBI

485
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: agent had to take it to the vault, the evidence

486
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: vault in the courthouse. Well, uh, ten days later, it

487
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: was discovered that one of those bags was missing, at

488
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: thirty eight thousand, one hundred dollars in it. There was

489
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: a little scandal about that made his way into the press,

490
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: and uh, everybody came under suspicion, including Luna. Even the

491
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: judge was interviewed by the FBI. The FBI being federal

492
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: courthouse FBI jurisdiction, so they were investigating this. He investigation

493
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: was still ongoing, and they at this point had no suspects.

494
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: They were polygraphing everybody, and according to leaks from law enforcement,

495
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 1: he was about and Luna was about to get polygraphed

496
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: himself for this particular thing, and so that may have

497
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: been a stresser in his life. I personally don't think

498
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: he stole the money, but he might be stressed that

499
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: this is a giant screw up and a black mark

500
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 1: on his record. Oh yeah, well he was the last

501
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: person to be in possession. Besides that that FBI agents.

502
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: So yeah. And then one other law enforcement leak came out.

503
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: It turns out that law enforcement discovered that Luna had

504
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: filled out an online application for a loan for about

505
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: thirty thousand bucks and two thousand two and apparently he

506
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 1: canceled the application right about the time that the money disappeared.

507
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: That left all suspicious And by the way, this is

508
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 1: like all these leaks, so I guess I'll give away

509
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: the game now. All these these leaks, in the eyes

510
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: of some people looked almost kind of concerted, almost as

511
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 1: if law enforcement was trying to trash Luna's reputation. Of

512
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: course that doesn't leaks. Yeah, yeah, that that that there

513
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: could have been a motive, in some sort of coordination

514
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: behind these I'm not sure that that's We've never seen

515
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: that with the government operation never ever. Yeah, A long

516
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: about this time, about early March, law enforcement began floating

517
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: the possibility that he might have killed himself. Up to

518
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: this point, everybody was sure it was murder, and now

519
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: suddenly the same maybe he killed himself. And there were

520
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: stories in the press New York Times, Washington Post right

521
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: about this time, including quotes from famous pathologists like Dr

522
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 1: Henry Lee. You guys have all heard of him, right, yeah,

523
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: and and one other guy who I forget, stating that

524
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: the shallow prick marks from that I probably were hesitation wounds.

525
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: So once some of the theory there for so suicide.

526
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: He was deep in debt and shaky suspected the theft

527
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: of all this cash, which at the very least we're

528
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: gonna damage his career probably if there was suspicions about that.

529
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: And I heard also that his boss didn't like each other.

530
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: His boss really didn't like him, wanted to fire him.

531
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: Although the boss won't comment on it, he's obviously was

532
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: asked by reporters. And so it was all this stuff

533
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: enough to kill himself over well, I don't know, not

534
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: necessarily in my book, but there was one other thing

535
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: that was going on. One he won on his last

536
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 1: big ride, and that was, of course, we talked about

537
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: the trial of Dion Smith and Walter Pointdexter for heroin

538
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: traffic so U and Walter point Extra by the way,

539
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: it was going to be tried later for murder drug

540
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: related murder, and Luda was also going to prosecute that.

541
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: Uh and this is serious stuff. Uh. Smith was looking

542
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: at several decades in prison, Point Dexter, death penalty and

543
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: so big thing. Essentially, Dion Smith was a mid level

544
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: drug supplier in Baltimore. Point Exter bought from him and

545
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: used and used that you supply his street level guys

546
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: that the guys on the corner, and he had a

547
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: star dealer named Warren Grace. Warren got arrested, was facing

548
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: huge amounts of time and offered to turn to essentially

549
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: squeal on Will Smith and pointdex evidence. Yeah, essentially. So

550
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: the Baltimore p D turned it over to the FBI,

551
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: the Justice Department. So there was an FBI agent named

552
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: Steve Skinner who was running that. We're going to run

553
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: him as an informant as Skinner. Yeah, yeah, I know

554
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: I made these same associations. I don't have that poor guy.

555
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure he gets that constantly. I found him on LinkedIn.

556
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: I think he's still with the FBI. Yeah, And so

557
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: Luna was supervising this whole operation, and they he dropped

558
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: a couple of charges against Warren just to show his

559
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: his good will, and then Warren agreed to be their

560
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: informant against these two. He pleaded guilty to charges of

561
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: possession and gun possession also, and he was remanded to

562
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: a halfway house until he was sentenced. Now in the meantime,

563
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: he's gonna be there. He's gonna be there snitch, and

564
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: he's gonna wear a wire and everything. And he had

565
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: they had a written agreement he was going to not

566
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: use any guns or not engaging violence. He was going

567
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: to not use drugs or sell drugs, going to not

568
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: leave the halfway house without FBI permission, gonna wear an

569
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: ankle bracelet. And of course he broke every one of

570
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: those rules, every single one him. He was out no

571
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: time at all. He was out shooting up the neighborhood

572
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: and selling drugs and all that stuff back to his

573
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: old habits. Yeah, yeah, so he was. It's it's kind

574
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: of ironic, you know that they he was there, he

575
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: was their special informant, and they were really overlooking all

576
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: this stuff because he was wearing a wire and getting

577
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: some good information on Smith and Poindexter. So, but but

578
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: at some point it seems to me like they got

579
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: their priorities a little skewed, because, I mean, here's Warren,

580
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: who was at least as big a menace to society

581
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: as these two guys are trying to put in jail there,

582
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: and they're kind of covering for him while they're trying

583
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: to lock these other two guys up. Now, it really

584
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: wasn't a good situation anyway. Smith and Point Extra were

585
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: arrested May two thousand three, both for her own possession

586
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: and trafficking. Of course, Walter Pointdexter arrested for murder. That

587
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: was the murder of a guy named Alvin Jones, drug

588
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: related as I said, And it was decided they would

589
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: be tried together for the drug charges and then immediately

590
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: right after that Point Extra would be charged for the murder,

591
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: also prosecuted by Jonathan Luna. Well, the trial for the

592
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: drug charges began to send refers two thousand three, which

593
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: is just two days before Jonathan Luna's last ride. This

594
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: case should have been a slam dug for the prosecution.

595
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: They had tons of audio tape of both Smith and

596
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: point exter Is saying all kinds of incriminating things, And

597
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: of course they had Warren Grace's testimony star witness, star witness,

598
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: but unfortunately for the prosecution, Warren did not turn out

599
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: to be as credible a witness as everybody had hoped.

600
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah it or not. And Jonathan Luna approached the defence

601
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: team at lunchtime on Wednesday, December third and offered them

602
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 1: a plea deal. And that's the one he was working

603
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: on on the night that he disappeared. So this is

604
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: what's going on in his life today, that he left

605
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: Baltimore for his big long car ride and didn't have

606
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: a bearing on him winding up dead. Well, maybe we

607
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: got to talk about all that in our theories. But

608
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: before we got the theories, let's take a quick break

609
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:34,880
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656
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: Then we're back. So we've three basic theories here there

657
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: were before, but Choopy had an alibife for that night,

658
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: so sorry choppy haters, but yeah, there it is. Yeah,

659
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: he was working with Pinkerton's that day exactly. Yeah, there

660
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: were the series are it was murder or he was

661
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: murder suicide, yeah, or it was other murder, or it

662
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: was different murder it's d or maybe an accident. Yeah,

663
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: it would be an interesting accident. But still there's a plausible,

664
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: sort of plausible theory for an accident. So let's talk

665
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: about murder first. We like murder the best, so we

666
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: talked about it first. And a law enforceman had three

667
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: different sort of trains of thought they were following here,

668
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: and one is said, of course, murdered over his job.

669
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: Some vengeful x con or perhaps somebody on trial right now,

670
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: you know, decided to have him whacked. Or second, maybe

671
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: somebody he'd met online they pursued that line of thought.

672
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: Or maybe he just happened to have the bad luck

673
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: to run into a serial killer. He went out for

674
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: a drive to clear his head stuff, that one, that one,

675
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,879
Speaker 1: you know, that one gets taped onto everything. And let's

676
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: just that I'm really gonna because first of all, I

677
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: think a serial killer would have chosen a better weapon.

678
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: So you think, yeah, the pen knife serial killer. Yeah,

679
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: well asked for the online dating stuff. Well, they never

680
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: found any any good leads or real evidence or suspects

681
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: in that either. And again I don't think. I don't

682
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: know exactly what he was up to. I mean, for

683
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: all I know, law enforcement lied about the dating website stuff.

684
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 1: Or maybe it was from back before he was married.

685
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: That doesn't really make any sense. Maybe not, I don't know. Okay, yeah,

686
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: I think it married for quite a few years. Yeah,

687
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. Whatever. But and that leads revenge for

688
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: a previous prosecution, which is totally plausible. He put a

689
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: lot of people away, and that pisses a lot of

690
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: people on it really does. Although it would be a

691
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: kind of a coincidence that that he happened to exactly

692
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 1: revenge on the exact day that his career Jonathan in

693
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: his career kind of hit a low point. Well but

694
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: you know, but okay, so I will I will adject

695
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: to that right now because we're using legal terminology and

696
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: say that phrase, because you could say that his his

697
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: career was kind of imploding for the year after that

698
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: money went missing. If he had been killed four or

699
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: died four months prior to that. We were probably saying, well,

700
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: and obviously his career was on a downturn because he

701
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: had this other you know, I mean, these cases, it

702
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: always it wasn't according to Plant well as far as

703
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: his career, I want, the money wasn't this big problem.

704
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: But we'll talk about that in a minute. Yeah, it

705
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: could be that Smith and point to extra who are

706
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: on trial just then had ordered to hit on Luna

707
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: based on the dumb criminal reasoning that if the prosecutor

708
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: is killed and the prosecution goes away, isn't that how

709
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: it works? Yeah? Well, I mean, I guess I don't

710
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: have as much of a problem with it being involved

711
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: with that case as I think a lot of other

712
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: people do, because in my mind, you know, they're part

713
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: of gangs. It's not as though they were just these

714
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: two men who happened to be They were part of

715
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 1: an organization. And granted they knew and their lawyers knew

716
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: that they were about to get a really good plea deal,

717
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: but it could have looked from the outside as though

718
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: they either it was obvious that Warren had snitched and

719
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: they were like, well, these guys are going to snitch too,

720
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: and we have to get rid of the prosecution. For

721
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: some reason that makes sense, or it could have been

722
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: that it looked like to them that the way that

723
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: logic follows, right, it's not a good logic, but that

724
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: getting rid of the prosecutor means getting rid of the prosecution,

725
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: and that it looked like from the outside that these

726
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: guys were going to go away for a really long time,

727
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: maybe even one of them was going to have the

728
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: death penalty enforced on them, and and you know, to

729
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: some outside game member, it was worth killing this guy

730
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: to get rid of that. I mean, I don't think

731
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: the plea deal itself negates their threat or somebody that

732
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: they cared about them threat. Yeah, I would take a

733
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: remarkably dumb criminal thank But maybe they were. The thinking

734
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: process was like, well, if we whacked the prosecutor, then

735
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: all any other prosecutor will be afraid to take this case,

736
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: and so they'll just decide to plead it out. Or

737
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: criminals are often very dumb. We have seen that work.

738
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about all of the judge

739
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: killings that happened in South America for years and years,

740
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: who the guys who would prosecute, would prosecute. I mean this,

741
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: this thinking is out there and there is a set

742
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: logic to prove that sometimes it works. Yeah, I think

743
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: this is a little early in the process to try

744
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: to these guys exactly that action. But yeah, these guys

745
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: were not big enough for rich enough. They weren't Pablo Escobar,

746
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: you know. They well, in fairness, Pablo Escobar wasn't always

747
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: Pablo Escobar. He started out small too. Yeah, so they

748
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: could have been the next Pablo Escobar. Maybe they were

749
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: angle to be Pablo. Yeah, I hope not. We don't

750
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: need that here. But there was one up that I

751
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: have with the murder theory, which is that, as I

752
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: mentioned before, no evidence was found in the car to

753
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: suggest anything that anybody had been in it. Tire tracks

754
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: don't indicate a second vehicle to scene, so had the

755
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: killer get away you know, there were no footprints, like

756
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: saying the mud at the edge of the creek that

757
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: didn't belong to Jonathan Luna. Yeah, I guess I don't.

758
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: I also don't have as bigger problem with you because

759
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: there's so much time on accounting for in his night yea,

760
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 1: and particularly near the end of his night that we don't.

761
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: It's possible that he could have, you know, been meeting

762
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: somebody on the side of the road, gotten stabbed a

763
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: bunch of hopped back in his car or fallen into

764
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: his car or whatever, and then I'm like, oh, God,

765
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: been super disoriented and kind of run into a Yeah,

766
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: I mean, there is that possibility. I mean it, It

767
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: doesn't The evidence does indicate, like I said, that he

768
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: drove behind the building and then stopped the car, and

769
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: then the car goes again and goes into the creek.

770
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: So maybe somebody attacks him there at that spot where

771
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 1: he stopped, And yeah, I had the exact same thought

772
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: that the fight goes on. I still think the blood

773
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: in the back seat is the thing that makes me

774
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: think that he had to have been in the back seat,

775
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: because if it's his hands and then his neck and

776
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 1: all of that, they would have to be a lot

777
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: of blood soaking through the seat for it to reach

778
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: the back of the car. On the floorboard can kind

779
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 1: of go down between the back and the bottom. Yeah, okay,

780
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 1: But to me, it indicates more that he was in

781
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: the rear of the car for some reason. So then

782
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: whatever happens, whoever does it, walks away and then he

783
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: clambers his way into the driver's seat to try and

784
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: get away, but all he's able to do is is

785
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: we just said, knock it into gear, and the car

786
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: just idols forwards until it thunks off the edge and

787
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: it gets high centered and can't keep going, and he

788
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: gets out and stumbles into the creek or something like that. Yeah,

789
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: like that girl that wrecked in front of my house.

790
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: You know, it gets all drunkenly tried to figure out

791
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: what's going on, except he is literally dying and falls

792
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: off the edge of the creek. Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

793
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: But then there's there's the knife. So what happens is

794
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: that maybe the killer walks up to him, you know,

795
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: and where he's laying face down in the in the

796
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: mud in the water, and drops the knife next to him.

797
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: Maybe they didn't find it until six weeks later. It

798
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: could have been planted, or that could have also not

799
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: been the murder weapon. We don't know. It could have

800
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: been a random pen knife, could have been one that

801
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: he had in his breast pocket all the time and

802
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: just fell out as he fell, and it was neutruly

803
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: buoyant like hard drives, and so it floated the whole

804
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: It floated a while down stream. Yeah, speaking of hard

805
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: drives lost and found, this one did sort of happen

806
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: right around the time that rag Rick or yeah, yeah, mr.

807
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: There there were some a few people that did actually

808
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: draw some some between suggestions for the Lunar case came

809
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 1: in like wildfire after yeah, yeah, I know, um, well

810
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: so that's it for murder for now, but let's get

811
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: let's go onto something else, accident. This is a hypothesis

812
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: that law enforcement came up with, was which was given

813
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: his problems, especially with you know, the cash thing and

814
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: everything else. But he might have Lunar might have stage

815
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 1: his own abduction and employed to kind of gain sympathy

816
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: and maybe diverse of attention from his poor performance in

817
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: the trial that was going on that week. And also,

818
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: of course there's the whole money thing. And even if

819
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: he wasn't guilty of stealing the money, just for me

820
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: taking a polygraph, especially something that would be a kind

821
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: of career ending kind of thing, would be stressful enough,

822
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: even especially because it turns out polygraphs, no, they're not,

823
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: they're not at all. You know that All the measure

824
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: is how nervous you are, not how truthful you are.

825
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: So that's as it really isn't fair in a lot

826
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: of ways. Perhaps he takes a drive to clear his

827
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: head a little bit, hatches this idea of faking and inbduction,

828
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: gets out his pocket and I started sticking himself to

829
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: make it look like he'd been tortured, you know, by

830
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: some by his abductor. Yeah. Yeah, it drives aroun until

831
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: he finds a suitable place where he stabs himself more

832
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: deeply to make it look like a real attempted murder.

833
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: But unfortunately for him, he screwed up and severed his

834
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: caroated artery starts bleeding like a stuck pig loops. Didn't

835
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: mean to do that exactly. And of course, as you know,

836
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: if you cut the crodd artery, not only do you

837
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: bleed a lot, but your blood flow to your brain

838
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: is cut off, diverted well as I mean, you still

839
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: got the one on the other side, that's still but

840
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: still you know your capacity. That's not good, not good

841
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: at all. Yeah, he might not have been too clear

842
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: headed in his final moments. What that might explain why

843
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: the car winds up partially in the ditch and he

844
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 1: wants to face down. Maybe he thought would be a

845
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: good idea to get out and stumble into the ditch

846
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: for some reason. Again, his brain probably wasn't working a

847
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: capacity falls down listen, I can I can see where

848
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: this theory is going. This is much like what's his

849
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: name Anthony Leaner years ago when he said I was

850
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: hiking the Appalachian Trail because it was the first thing

851
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: that he thought of to try to get out of trouble.

852
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 1: And this could be the same thing. Ray Ray Greek

853
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: r Jonathan Luna is suddenly like, what do I do?

854
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: What do I do? I'm I'm gonna get attacked. I'm

855
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: just gonna get attacked. But it's just it's such a

856
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: screwy idea, and it took him so long to go

857
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: about it that it it seems him. It doesn't seem

858
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: like it's a real idea. If somebody does this, you

859
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: would think they would just like drive off into the

860
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: hood and cut themselves up and then dial nine one

861
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 1: one and say I've been attacked, because that's an easy

862
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: way to get out of it. This seems like a

863
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 1: long drive and a lot of stuff to do for

864
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 1: going and starting his sympathy campaign. Yeah, I mean, it

865
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: definitely would have made more sense to um, really, you know,

866
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: I mean, just go down and pick a fight with

867
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: some homeless guys and get beat up real bad and

868
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: then and then go like, just throw yourself down in

869
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: an alley where the pool you will find. I'm gonna say,

870
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,919
Speaker 1: for a guy like Luna in Baltimore, it probably would

871
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: not be so hard to get real beat up. Probably

872
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: not actually, probably less painful than cutting yourself thirty six

873
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: times the hands. Yes, that's it's just it's illogical. Yeah,

874
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: this one is not impossible at all, but it's it's

875
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: a little bit of a stretch, I would say. Yeah, well,

876
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: so we don't murder with an accident, was left from suicide.

877
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: So we already talked a bit about some of the

878
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: stressors and Luna's life that might have made him want

879
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: to take his own life. Yeah again, we're talking possible

880
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: marriage issues, debt, legal jeopardy from the missing thirty eight

881
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 1: thousand bucks. His boss didn't like him, His job was

882
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: maybe in jeopardy also, and I haven't gotten into it

883
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: too deeply. Yeah, but let's talk about this now. Which

884
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,439
Speaker 1: was his very bad day that day of December three

885
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: in court? Oh yeah, Okay, had a rough day as

886
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: I said, the trial at Smith and Point Extra began

887
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: December first, Monday, uh and from the very beginning, the

888
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: defense attorneys, well, they had found out something that had

889
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: been withheld from them by the prosecution, which is they

890
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: found out about Warren, the new Warren was going to

891
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: be a witness. And by the way, for folks who

892
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: aren't aware, especially those that don't live in this country,

893
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: the rule of law when you're on trial is that

894
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: the prosecution shares its information with the defense. Yeah, keep

895
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: things hidden. Yeah, this is called discovery, discovery process, and

896
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: they can't withhold stuff. That's a big no. Now. I

897
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: believe that defense can to a degree, but not not

898
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: the prosecution because they're the ones proving it. Yeah, so

899
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: they've got like, because everything they're gonna throw at them,

900
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: they have to show them ahead of time so they

901
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: can you know, defend against come up with an argument

902
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: against it. Right, So our boy is being a jerk

903
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: and going around and selling drugs and doing all of

904
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: the definite neighborhood possibly you know, there's some intimation that

905
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: he might have murdered as a person or two. Oh yeah, yeah,

906
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: well I don't think he did that. When he was

907
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:11,959
Speaker 1: wearing the wire. And he also he also wasn't wearing

908
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: his ankle bracelet either. He took that off whenever he

909
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: felt like it. Again. You know, it's funny. I always

910
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: thought those things couldn't just be removed, but maybe it

911
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: was an early model. Apparently they can if you know

912
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: what you're doing. Yeah, But the fact that Warren had

913
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: broken the rules of his plea agreement and also the

914
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: fact that he was a paid informant that I mentioned

915
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: that he was paid, yeah I did. I Yeah, he

916
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: was getting paid for this. I mean all those things.

917
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: Actually those are relevant to the prosecutor that because they

918
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: go to his credibility as a prosecution witness. But the

919
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: defense had not been told about this stuff. Well, so

920
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: they made a stink about it from day one, and

921
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: as of day two, they actually were starting to raise

922
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 1: the possibility that this constituted actually a big cover up

923
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: by the FBI and the Department of Justice of Warren's

924
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: by behavior. The judge, the judge in this case, his

925
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: name was William Corals, feral judge, basically said that the

926
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 1: trial should continue because they still despite despite Warren's lack

927
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 1: of credibility as a witness, they still had all the tapes,

928
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 1: so there's still some evidence. So yeah, as we'll go

929
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: ahead with this stuff now that and and now of

930
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: course the jury has been informed as to Warren's transgressions

931
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: while he was an informant, and so I we'll just

932
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: continue and you know, you can bring it up an appeal, guys.

933
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: And so they went ahead with that on the morning

934
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: of December three. FBI agent Steve Skinner, remember him, he

935
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 1: tested Sinner Agent Skinner. Yeah, uh, and he lets slipped

936
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: at also did another thing about Warren Grace, which I

937
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: just mentioned he was a paid informant, which again this

938
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: is the first time that the defense found out about this.

939
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: You can imagine they hit the roof. They we're very

940
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: upset about not having been informed of this because I mean,

941
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: obviously the guy's getting paid, he's got an incenter to

942
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: just say whatever the prosecution wants, right, it damages his

943
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: credibility with a jury, or at least it should, right,

944
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: he becomes a yes man at that. Yeah. Yeah, So

945
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: at this point, of course, Skinner went on to to

946
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: actually admit to all of Warren's violations of this plea deal,

947
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 1: which they had turned a blind eye too. The defense

948
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: at this point made emotion for dismissal of charges based

949
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: on prosecutorial misconduct and again on this FBI prosecution cover

950
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: up of all these crimes of this guy really who

951
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: should not have been a forortant informant. He should have

952
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: been arrested and locked up. And Judge Coral has refused

953
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: to dismiss, but he did agree to schedule an investigation

954
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 1: into the way Luna and the FBI had handled their informant.

955
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: So this is not good news for Jonathan Luna and

956
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: also for if FBI and Skinner definitely could be a

957
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: career in any kind of thing. This investigation into the informant,

958
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: but also the fact that he had basically withheld evidence. Yeah,

959
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: and so it looks like he was gaming the system anyway. Yeah,

960
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: now it's it's it's it's prosecutorial miscon act. Really, And

961
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: so Jonathan lewn has started that week for just a

962
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 1: few days before with this easy slammed on drug case

963
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 1: and now two days later it's blowing up in his

964
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: face big time. And I'm not a lawyer, but I

965
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: I think that he could have probably been disbarred for

966
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: his conduct and withholding that information, it's possible. So we're

967
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 1: talking abouh losing his job and just a loss of livelihood.

968
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: You can't be a lawyer anymore, professional disgrace. And probably

969
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 1: a few other people in the attorney's office the FBI

970
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 1: were also feeling a little bit of heete. I'm sure

971
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 1: an agent Skinner was not happy about how this whole

972
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: thing was turning out. Yeah, he didn't want to, probably not,

973
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: And so this thing had to be had to be

974
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: made to go away. And this is why Jonathan Luna

975
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: approached the defense lawyers a little bit later over the

976
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: lunch break and offered them a plea deal, which would

977
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: solve everybody's problem, right, And but of course Pointdex, do

978
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: you remember, he's the guy who's want who's going to

979
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 1: be tried for murder. Yeah, he knew he was holding

980
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,320
Speaker 1: a strong hand, and so he demanded to charge against

981
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 1: the point extra be dropped for murder and literally agreed

982
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: to this. But there was a hitch, which is that

983
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 1: federal law makes it illegal, essentially to plea bargain away

984
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: a case that is murder if it is drug related.

985
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: So so then couldn't have gone away. He couldn't actually

986
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,439
Speaker 1: make the case go away that easy. Yeah, and so

987
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: he was kind of copying between a rock and a

988
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: hard place. And unfortunately for him, he couldn't really gloss

989
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: over the drug angle of this whole case, because he remember,

990
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: he was going to prosecute the murder, and he'd already

991
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: he'd already built his case. He'd already submitted briefs and

992
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: documents and all kinds of stuff documenting for the discovery process,

993
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: right the documenting that this murder was indeed very very

994
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 1: much drug related. So so he's got to square this

995
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: circle somehow. He's the judge. Judge Quarrels was informed of

996
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 1: this pending plea agreement, told Luna to have it ready

997
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: in the morning for him at nine durty the next day.

998
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: So he goes back to his office to do a

999
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: little creative writing. But like I said, it appears he

1000
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: was having a little trouble squaring that circle, because when

1001
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: he left his office later that night, the Smith agreement

1002
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: was all done. The point Extra agreement was only about

1003
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: half done. They were found the next day on his

1004
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 1: computer by another lawyer in the office. And so Jonathan

1005
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 1: Lane had perhaps was looking at professional ruin with the

1006
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: way this this case was going. Now, could this possibility

1007
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: of professional ruin and loss of life could have drive

1008
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 1: a man to kill himself. I would say, yeah, sometimes

1009
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: it does, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, it just depends. I

1010
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: mean a lot of it depends on all kinds of

1011
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: stuff in varnerables. I mean, we don't know. But I

1012
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: definitely I would say that that it was, you know,

1013
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: definitely entirely possible that his very very bad day was

1014
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 1: the thing that sort of tipped him over into the

1015
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: into the whole suicide thing. And yeah, that had the

1016
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: possibility of working at best Buy. It's not the worst

1017
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: job ever, Probably not, I have Actually that's the worst job.

1018
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think, you know, the guys have

1019
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: to go down and like dig through poop or probably

1020
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: a bad job. Oh, sanitary or sanitation workers. Probably not

1021
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: a very fun job. Yeah, they're paid really well, and

1022
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta proved that's a union job. I think. Yeah,

1023
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: I forget. I would rather dig poop all day than

1024
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 1: stand at the in the door of Walmart. Give me

1025
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: the poop. Yeah, let's go back to our case here.

1026
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 1: And as for the plea agreements that they were found

1027
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: on Luna's computer, as I said the next morning on

1028
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: the fourth, another lawyer in the office quickly finished writing

1029
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: the point dexter agreement delivered to the court. It was signed,

1030
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: everybody lived happily ever after, except Jonathan Luna. Except Jonathan Luna.

1031
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: Even if the plea deal was wow, a little hanky,

1032
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: it was kind of pretty illegal. That kind of that

1033
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: kind of puts a nail in the suicide theory because

1034
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: if a second lawyer came in and had to finish

1035
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: the plea deal in a couple of hours and it

1036
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,760
Speaker 1: was still up did and they didn't know about Luna

1037
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 1: at that point, not yet. I don't believe they knew.

1038
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,399
Speaker 1: It wasn't as if they were motivated, oh well, let's

1039
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: just get this take care of. Because the guy died,

1040
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: then well that proves it the drive of oh god,

1041
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,839
Speaker 1: this whole thing is gonna fall apart. Maybe. I mean,

1042
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: if he's as good as a lawyer as he appeared

1043
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,359
Speaker 1: to have been, I may have known that he could

1044
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 1: push that through. I feel like sometimes all it takes

1045
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: is a new set of eyes to come up with

1046
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 1: the way to square that circle, the circle or whatever

1047
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: it is. I mean, you know, sometimes it's it's it

1048
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 1: can seem like you know, in his brain on top

1049
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: of everything else. It's like, oh my god, there's no

1050
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: way I can make this legal. I'm already in trouble

1051
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: and kind of you know, in bad shape with things

1052
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 1: maybe being illegal. If I push this through and it's

1053
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: also illegal, it just adds to the pile of stuff

1054
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: that people can bring against me. I don't know how

1055
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: to figure this out. And then a new lawyer comes

1056
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: in and it's like, I don't know, Yeah, this is

1057
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: an easy solution in my brain, but other people would

1058
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,399
Speaker 1: never think of it. Well, and also it maybe if

1059
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 1: these rumors are true that Luna's boss didn't like him

1060
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: it was out to get him, then lunas boss obviously

1061
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: would catch this for a reason, and it would be

1062
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: the sort of thing that he could actually you know,

1063
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 1: I don't know how much of a stink you want

1064
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: to make this as embarrassing to your office, so it's

1065
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,760
Speaker 1: one of the things that get it would get Luna fired.

1066
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: But the other guy, the Odlaire, probably talked to the

1067
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 1: same boss and said, g boss, what do you want

1068
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: to do and the boss probably said just make this

1069
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: go away. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is that

1070
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: I know the boss's name is or something but um,

1071
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 1: I mean he didn't like Lunas. So it may be

1072
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 1: that Luna realized that even if the plea deal could

1073
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 1: be completed and go through, the boss was going to

1074
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 1: fire him. But at that point it's the boss fires him.

1075
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: While it might be a bit of professional disgrace, it's

1076
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: not professional ruined because he still would have his license

1077
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: and theory and it's still able to practice law. Well,

1078
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: unless the boss decided to say, make make a stink

1079
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: out of the whole withholding of evidence and just say, look,

1080
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to refer to you for to whatever they

1081
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 1: have they had their office affairs of some kind, like

1082
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: the office and the office of Professional Responsibility of like

1083
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 1: the FBI. Has I suspect yeah that if if you know,

1084
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: you go, you go and say, yeah, I got fired

1085
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 1: from my last job because I m withheld a lot

1086
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: of evidence and wrote an illegal plea deal. That's going

1087
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: to throw up some flax. You're gonna better, Just like

1088
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 1: Willie mccraig. People who get fired from those kind of jobs,

1089
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 1: they go into private practice because then you don't have

1090
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: to tell anybody that I left working for the US government.

1091
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 1: Because there it's a croc and a crooked, just bureaucracy

1092
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 1: and putting away poor people. And I hated it, right

1093
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: because I love the poor. That'll be five. Yeah, well

1094
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 1: let's uh, but let's talk about let's go back to

1095
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: the murder theory for a second. Um, so we already

1096
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 1: talked a second back for us just a second, because

1097
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of the well I don't know

1098
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: how much, but I know that people that have actually

1099
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 1: been at least one book written about this case, a

1100
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 1: lot of intimation is out there that perhaps, uh, it

1101
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: might have been FBI et cetera, d J some people

1102
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: in the government who murdered Luna for the simple reason that, yeah,

1103
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: there was this this big explosive, scandalous cluster that had

1104
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: come up in this trial, and it was going to

1105
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: because of because of the uh, the defense had found

1106
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: out about Warren Grace's conduct. And the fact of the

1107
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: matter is that they basically protected a real menace to

1108
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: society out there in the street at the instead of

1109
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 1: arresting the guy. That's a little scandalous, and maybe some

1110
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 1: people wanted to keep that covered up, and maybe Jonathan

1111
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 1: Luna basically said, you know, guys, I can't I can't

1112
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: cover this up in good conscious. I can't conscious, I

1113
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 1: can't do that. And so they decided, well, okay, Jonathan,

1114
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 1: and what we're gonna do is find somebody us to

1115
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: write that write that agreement, and we're gonna whack you.

1116
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: So so wait, so you have turned what you initially

1117
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: stated as revisiting the murder theory into a giant government

1118
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: cover up theory conspiracy. You've actually added your fourth theory. Well,

1119
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: and the reason, well it's murder though, But the reason

1120
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: I brought I just bring it up is I don't

1121
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: want any of our listeners to start doing a little

1122
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: reading on this. And it's like, wow, they totally missed

1123
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: this whole government conspiracy thing, but well I picked up

1124
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: on it. So if you look at that, I mean,

1125
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 1: what's you know, I could see where if Luna was

1126
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: not going to be a team player, they said, well,

1127
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do about this? And so they

1128
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 1: they arrange are going to be killed and then they

1129
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: sort of, you know, they pursue the investigation as good

1130
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 1: as well as they can, and then they just start

1131
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: leaking all this stuff to the press. As I mentioned,

1132
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: the campaign kind of a smear campaign, and and and

1133
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: then and then it's like, if they find any evidence

1134
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: of any actual murder at the side, they just sort

1135
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: of quietly, you know, ditch that and and they keep

1136
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 1: leaking stuff and leaking stuff, and then finally he's just like,

1137
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: I must have been suicide. That's the best we can

1138
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: come up with. So that's that's kind of the theory

1139
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: that's out there. But he was right, I mean, he

1140
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: was actively writing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well he was, I think,

1141
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: you know, but you know, you never know. He might

1142
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: have had a change of heart. He had at least

1143
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: one conversation on the phone was somebody that we don't

1144
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: know who it was, so he might have had a

1145
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: change of heart. But here's the here's the deal is

1146
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: that if he had a change of heart and just said, look,

1147
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: I just can't write this, then somebody could have said

1148
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: some of somebody else from his office or whoever, could

1149
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: have just said, Okay, here's what you do, Jonathan. We

1150
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: just need you to keep your mouth shut. You don't

1151
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: have to write it. All you gotta do go to

1152
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: the man's room, go to the dirtiest toilet, drink a

1153
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: cup of water out of that toilet, then go to

1154
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 1: the er. And you know, because you're gonna be sick

1155
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: as a dog and you've got incredible basically become indisposed,

1156
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 1: and then somebody else will step been and write it

1157
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: for you. We'll make the whole thing go away. Yeah,

1158
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: that would have been an easier way driving around for

1159
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: four or four and a half hours in the countryside,

1160
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: stabbing and repeatedly with a knife, you know, and trying

1161
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: to find a good suitable spot for you know, for

1162
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: the final Kudi gras. Yeah, it does seem to me

1163
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: that if the FBI were gonna kill him, Yeah, they

1164
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: would have done a better job of it. You would

1165
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 1: think it seems like a really random, weird murder, don't

1166
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: you think. Yeah, I mean yeah, but it's just yea

1167
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: also random and weird. Well, and here's the weird thing

1168
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: is the guy's office was in freaking Baltimore for Christ's six.

1169
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one of those cities that alternates with

1170
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 1: like Detroit, New Orleans and a few other places the

1171
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 1: murder capital. Yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't just

1172
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,439
Speaker 1: take him out again to like one of the bad,

1173
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: the worst neighborhoods and you know, shoot him once it

1174
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 1: looked like a muck. Yeah, I still don't think that

1175
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: it was an accident, and I still don't think it

1176
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 1: was a suicide. No, I agree of the stuff that

1177
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: I have read about, I mean, the cuts on his hands,

1178
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 1: I'm not in agreement with that, but I can get

1179
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: behind that maybe he did that to himself, though I

1180
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: would think that if your hands are bleeding, you're you're

1181
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 1: gonna start having a hard time hanging onto a knife

1182
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 1: just because it's gonna be slippery. But let's just ignore

1183
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: that the fact that there are some cuts on his

1184
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,919
Speaker 1: head and his his back that seemed to be hard

1185
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:25,439
Speaker 1: to get to, and his genitals, because again, no, no

1186
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: dude that isn't into that kind of pleasure pain stuff

1187
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: is just gonna willingly start playing with his junk with

1188
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 1: a knife to try and to misdirected like that. Seems

1189
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: like that's something someone does when they are does dudes

1190
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 1: do when they are trying to make someone suffer? Yeah,

1191
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 1: but no, it is if it happened, right, Because that's

1192
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 1: the big problem with this case is that we don't

1193
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 1: know if that's actually what happened. It could be that

1194
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: there it was just a bunch of kind of shallow cuts,

1195
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: you know, around and then oops, a slip and you

1196
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: cut your core artery or you know, maybe do it unintentionally.

1197
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:12,959
Speaker 1: But there's no there's no real way to know right now.

1198
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: Someday in the future ideally will will know because if

1199
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: that is the case, absolutely, I mean even without that,

1200
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 1: I do think it was probably a murder. But yeah,

1201
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 1: I just don't know why the mortician would have any

1202
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 1: incentive to lie about somebody slicing up his ghibli bits. Yeah. Again,

1203
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is this is one of the

1204
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: irritating things is that law enforce was still keeping it open.

1205
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why. It might be that there is

1206
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 1: something really hanging going on with law enforcements, so they're

1207
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 1: keeping it open so they don't have to allow people

1208
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 1: to look at their files. Yeah yeah, yeah, there there

1209
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: is a lot of conspiracy stuff about that, you know.

1210
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: And another odd thing too, is that in all the

1211
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: leaks that have come out, all the statements that have

1212
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: come out from law enforcements about all these things, that

1213
01:02:57,680 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: all these reasons that he might have killed himself, they

1214
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: never wants to mention the smith point extra trial. It's

1215
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: a possible motivator for for a suicide. Interesting that, don't

1216
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 1: you think maybe they're trying to expare them a little

1217
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,840
Speaker 1: professional embarrassment. I don't know, but it seems to me

1218
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: that it's bad day in court was as strong a

1219
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 1: motivator for suicide as most other things that were going

1220
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: on his life, and they didn't even mention it. It's

1221
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 1: kind of interesting or something. Yeah, I don't know. Uh

1222
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna come down on the side of suicide

1223
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: just because I'm feeling, you know, I don't know, kind

1224
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 1: of a strapper us today. Well, okay, that's it for

1225
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 1: this week. If you've got any theories of your own, well,

1226
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: you can contact us at our email, which is Thinking

1227
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. We also have

1228
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 1: a website, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com in case you

1229
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 1: didn't know that, where you can find our episodes and

1230
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 1: you can find links to go you know, by merchical

1231
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: stuff like that. We have links to our Instagram and

1232
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: our and all of our social of all our social media,

1233
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 1: we've got links there. Yeah. So yes, go to the website,

1234
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 1: and you can also download and listen to us on

1235
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: iTunes where you can subscribe. You can give us a

1236
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 1: rating and review high rating, great review, and you can

1237
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:16,439
Speaker 1: stream us of course from anywhere, and most importantly of all,

1238
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: Stitcher Premium. Of course, we're on Facebook, where we have

1239
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,640
Speaker 1: a group in a page. Um like, the page joined

1240
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: the group, don't friend the page. And uh we're also

1241
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 1: on Twitter, where we are thinking sideways and we have

1242
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: a subreddit thinking sideways of course. Oh yeah, and of

1243
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: course we are on Instagram. We're we're just got posting

1244
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 1: all kinds of fantastic stuff on much so much and

1245
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: of course Twitter and where there's all kinds of bird

1246
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: based things happening. Yeah, yeah, I know, silly twit. Oh god,

1247
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: you're supposed to make funs about the mystery that we've covered. No,

1248
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 1: wait till we get there. Yeah there, Okay, well I

1249
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: think it is about that time. Time for the bad pounds, Devin,

1250
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 1: you got any bad pounds? Yeah, Steve has what. I'm

1251
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 1: sure it's been a stabbing good time. That wasn't that great? Yeah?

1252
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 1: Oh come on, I'm a cut off. That was even

1253
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: less great. All right, I got nothing. I'm not going

1254
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 1: to make fun of some poor guys murder Sah, that's

1255
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 1: just because I cut you out and you're upset about it. Yeah,

1256
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: you're out class me, alright, see you guys next Week

1257
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 1: by Guys. I gotta get into a knife