Speaker 1: It's the Son of a Butsch podcast. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Claude Harmon. This week's guest a Trillium Rose, one of
Speaker 1: the really good up and coming instructors out there just
Speaker 1: giving really good quality golf lessons. I really like her approach.
Speaker 1: I've gotten to know her over the years. She's a
Speaker 1: Golf Magazine Top one hundred instructure. She's thirty six on
Speaker 1: the Golf Died Just Top Teacher list. And listen, it's
Speaker 1: easy to just look at all of the people out
Speaker 1: on tour coaching players standing behind them. You kind of
Speaker 1: know who they are. I've had some of them on
Speaker 1: the podcast. That's golf instruction at the highest level. You
Speaker 1: have to get lucky to get a player. You have
Speaker 1: to be in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 1: So there are so many instructors that maybe you don't
Speaker 1: know their name. But Trillian is one of the good ones,
Speaker 1: and she works hard. She really is blending that kind
Speaker 1: of mix between classic golf instruction and technology, and I
Speaker 1: think she's someone that everyone will really enjoy listening to.
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Speaker 1: Go check it out. So, like I said, Trillian Robes
Speaker 1: is my guest this week. We talk about some really
Speaker 1: cool stuff, kind of the how she blends. She's got
Speaker 1: a degree in kind of how people learn, and I
Speaker 1: think that's really important, the way that golfers learn, and
Speaker 1: we talk about that and how she uses her base
Speaker 1: of knowledge in how people learn and then applies it
Speaker 1: to how players can get better. So really good interview
Speaker 1: which I think you all are going to really like.
Speaker 1: My guest today is Triliam Rose Trillium one of the
Speaker 1: up and coming golf instructors I think in the game
Speaker 1: right now. But before we get to all of your
Speaker 1: golf instruction superpowers. This injury that I've seen on Instagram.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're on crutches, you had surgery. The hell happened?
Speaker 2: This is a little embarrassing. Well, it was playing ice hockey.
Speaker 1: That's smart.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well I like ice hockey. You play it, and I.
Speaker 2: Play with the group of women in the winter, which
Speaker 2: is fine. But these are a group of guys and
Speaker 2: they're on the like one to five years into it,
Speaker 2: so not not total beginners.
Speaker 3: But you know, guys are a little bigger.
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: I was on d in front of the net, loose puck,
Speaker 2: someone kind of body weight on my back. I'm supporting,
Speaker 2: little weight. I didn't fall, and then someone else whacked
Speaker 2: the standing leg I know, soft ice. My skate didn't
Speaker 2: move and the anterior fhibula is snapped.
Speaker 1: If one of your golfers told you the story, what's
Speaker 1: the first thing that you would tell the why are
Speaker 1: you playing ice hockey?
Speaker 2: No, the first thing you'd say is ice hockey? Why
Speaker 2: are you playing ice hockey? Exactly in that voice.
Speaker 1: It is injuries. I think there are a lot of
Speaker 1: people listening to the podcast that they have their big golfers.
Speaker 1: They love golf, golf is a huge part of their life,
Speaker 1: and they get injured, they tear their acl playing basketball
Speaker 1: or stuff like that. How do you feel, as adults,
Speaker 1: the best way to come back from an injury.
Speaker 2: You know, I've learned it quite a bit about bone breaks.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm well into my forties, and I think
Speaker 2: after the teenage years, our bones just start to become
Speaker 2: more brittle. We don't have as much blood flow or
Speaker 2: injury recovery timelines or longer. You know, kids. My surgeon
Speaker 2: called it like green green shoots.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The bones are almost not rubber, obviously, but they're different.
Speaker 2: So we've got to look at this. And I've been
Speaker 2: looking at this on a slower timeline with a lot
Speaker 2: more patients. And I think what's helped me specifically is
Speaker 2: taking my expectations out of my day to day. So
Speaker 2: usually I'd expect to be able to take a shower quickly. No,
Speaker 2: it's not happening or everything.
Speaker 3: Everything.
Speaker 2: Expectations are just out the window, and my priority is
Speaker 2: healing and doing the best thing I can do in
Speaker 2: a day to day with whatever I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of golfers when they do get injured,
Speaker 1: I say this to players all the time. No athlete
Speaker 1: has ever taken too long to come back from an injury, right,
Speaker 1: everybody takes the minimal amount of time. They come back early.
Speaker 1: We see this a lot in our golfers that have
Speaker 1: shoulder injuries, risk injuries, knee injuries, back injury. They get
Speaker 1: told the rest, maybe they have some surgery, but they
Speaker 1: immediately want to push getting back out on the golf course,
Speaker 1: getting back out to hitting golf balls, especially now as
Speaker 1: we're in the middle of the summer. For you, you live
Speaker 1: on the East Coast in the United States, you spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time to where a lot of your
Speaker 1: students aren't able to get out and play golf. They
Speaker 1: have to hit balls inside in simulators things of that nature.
Speaker 1: It's hard to be patient when you're coming back from
Speaker 1: an injury to do the rehab, to listen to kind
Speaker 1: of your body, but also to listen to your doctors
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: That's totally right, especially if you don't I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't My threshold for pain is probably higher than
Speaker 2: it should be, right, So I'm one of these people
Speaker 2: that I don't want to take the pain meds if
Speaker 2: I don't have to, because I know that the signal
Speaker 2: for me is really important, the signal being ouch, right,
Speaker 2: So if I don't feel that out, I'm just going
Speaker 2: to I'm going.
Speaker 3: To keep going. I'm going to keep I'm going to
Speaker 3: keep pushing it.
Speaker 2: Oh I can put a little weight, Well, maybe I
Speaker 2: can put a little more weight.
Speaker 3: Oh I can go fast.
Speaker 2: Why don't I see if I can go a little faster, right,
Speaker 2: And I don't you know, I know, I don't begrudge
Speaker 2: myself for wanting to push it and be competitive and
Speaker 2: move forward to a point right if it's going to
Speaker 2: hurt the process.
Speaker 3: And I think that's really hard and Lovy, like.
Speaker 2: You said, you want to you want to get out
Speaker 2: there and you want to play, you want to be
Speaker 2: part of it, you want to be relevant, you want
Speaker 2: to keep going. So I think there's definitely a push
Speaker 2: and a pull mentally on that.
Speaker 1: A lot of people listening to this podcast will be
Speaker 1: coming out of whether they're in Europe or whether they're,
Speaker 1: you know, in a cold climate in the United States.
Speaker 1: So we'll be coming out of a time to where, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're getting into kind of the middle of summer. How
Speaker 1: do you talk to players troll about the difference between
Speaker 1: when you can't get out on the golf course, when
Speaker 1: you're hitting golf balls inside. You feel like there should
Speaker 1: be kind of winter training and then summer training. If
Speaker 1: you live in a climate where you have to deal
Speaker 1: with both.
Speaker 2: I don't think people always have a choice, Like that's
Speaker 2: sort of the way the way you are personally. I
Speaker 2: have a hitting bay in the winter. We can open
Speaker 2: the bay door we can hit balls into the snow
Speaker 2: or ice, or we can close the door and hit
Speaker 2: it into a net. So I've seen both cases be
Speaker 2: incredibly useful. What I've seen as an instructor is having
Speaker 2: an off season where you can, as I call it,
Speaker 2: lift up the hood, get into the engine, replace some parts.
Speaker 1: Do you.
Speaker 2: Your changeovers that you need, you want to change, you know,
Speaker 2: an issue in the takeaway, It's a great time to
Speaker 2: do it. Why because you can really think about those
Speaker 2: technical changes. Not a great time to be thinking when
Speaker 2: you're leading up to a big tournament. So I mean
Speaker 2: it's classic periodization right where you're going to try to
Speaker 2: peak for your highest performing you know, stuff on your schedule,
Speaker 2: and you don't have to peak all year round.
Speaker 3: It takes a lot out of you.
Speaker 2: So I kind of like having I don't know, im
Speaker 2: Florida's toughy Florida, Texas, California, Southern California, those warmer climates,
Speaker 2: I mean, those areas don't really have off seasons, and
Speaker 2: some of these players you know you're working with, you
Speaker 2: don't really necessarily have off You just kind of have
Speaker 2: to fit it in when you can fit it in.
Speaker 2: I think you know, based on your tournament schedule. But yeah,
Speaker 2: for the recreational golfer, I'm a huge fan of having
Speaker 2: those times where you can hit into a net. I'm
Speaker 2: a huge even in the summer, you have a net
Speaker 2: you can hit into, you take away the outcome, and
Speaker 2: you take away a player's you know they're trying to
Speaker 2: make a change and suddenly they hit a bad shot.
Speaker 2: That feedback of that bad shot can be very misleading
Speaker 2: that maybe they didn't do what they're trying to do. However,
Speaker 2: you could be doing what you're trying to do. You
Speaker 2: just happen to hit it on the puzzle, so you
Speaker 2: think you did a bad shot, right. So, but if
Speaker 2: you have a net, you take away that outcome and
Speaker 2: then you give someone a chance to really get into
Speaker 2: the feel of this wing. So yeah, I'm a fan
Speaker 2: of the net, and.
Speaker 1: I think golfers are so outcome oriented, right, It's always
Speaker 1: thinking about what the outcome is. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that I try to say to students is to
Speaker 1: just listen. If we stick with the problem, you know
Speaker 1: the process of what it takes. If we kind of
Speaker 1: know the recipe of what you're trying to do. If
Speaker 1: we follow the recipe, we've got a much better chance
Speaker 1: to get to something that tastes good as opposed to
Speaker 1: if we have no idea what we're doing and we're
Speaker 1: just going to try and throw a bunch of ingredients
Speaker 1: at it. I know that motor learning is something that
Speaker 1: you are very very passionate about that You've spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time doing the research and doing a lot
Speaker 1: of work in that area. Why do you think golfers
Speaker 1: don't get better? Truly? I mean, I think taking lessons
Speaker 1: a big part of it. But golfers, I think are
Speaker 1: so hard on themselves. Their expectation levels are so high.
Speaker 1: But I'd be really interested in your take on how
Speaker 1: golfers learn and things that people listening could say, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I'm going to try and take a lesson, I
Speaker 1: always try to talk about taking a lesson from the
Speaker 1: students standpoint, what are the questions you should be asking,
Speaker 1: what are the things that you should be looking for
Speaker 1: in an instructor? But from a learning standpoint, how do
Speaker 1: you think golfers learn their best.
Speaker 3: This is my favorite topic. Everybody. We didn't even talk
Speaker 3: ahead of this. Yeah, he just knew what to ask.
Speaker 1: Done this before.
Speaker 2: You've done this before, and we all can relate to
Speaker 2: this no matter where. You aren't on this level of
Speaker 2: skill with any sport really that you're playing.
Speaker 3: You're playing in a certain.
Speaker 2: Whatever your sport, let's call it golf, and you have
Speaker 2: some level of competency and you know you have a
Speaker 2: certain feel for things. But then you look at the
Speaker 2: result and you said, well, I shot an eighty four.
Speaker 2: I don't really want to shoot eight. I want to
Speaker 2: shoot a seventy four. Okay, we've got to look at
Speaker 2: why why things aren't right. So this is why I
Speaker 2: like arcos, I like repsodo, I mean, I like these,
Speaker 2: I like track man, I mean I like ways to
Speaker 2: figure out why we're not doing what we want to
Speaker 2: be doing. You can look at your stats, you can
Speaker 2: look at your you can look at your club data,
Speaker 2: your ball data. Okay, so you figure out what you
Speaker 2: need to do and then you figure okay, well I
Speaker 2: need to move the ball differently. We need to change
Speaker 2: our behavior, our motive behavior, you got to change something
Speaker 2: you're doing in your swing. And let's say you have
Speaker 2: a fundamentally risky motor pattern. Let's suppose it's like, I
Speaker 2: don't know, you're not rotating your pelvis very much and
Speaker 2: you rely on a lot in your hands and some
Speaker 2: some wrist angles for example. To make a change is
Speaker 2: hard and it's uncomfortable. So if the very first stage
Speaker 2: of that is is, well, I've got to think about
Speaker 2: what I'm doing differently, and you're and you're about to
Speaker 2: go and play a lot of golf that summer, thinking
Speaker 2: about doing something differently doesn't really jive with playing golf. Okay,
Speaker 2: So right off the bat, you've got to be realistic
Speaker 2: with yourself about ay, how much you're going to play,
Speaker 2: or how much you're going to play and the line
Speaker 2: on the score, or how much you're going to be
Speaker 2: able to practice until that that feeling becomes less uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: That is a big amount of work, and I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people either don't know how to do it,
Speaker 2: or they don't have someone who can help them, or
Speaker 2: they don't know what the feel needs to be right,
Speaker 2: or they're not willing to actually put the work in
Speaker 2: to make that change. I mean, those are all just
Speaker 2: right off the top of my head. There are people
Speaker 2: that are totally willing to commit to make those adjustments
Speaker 2: and those motor pattern changes. And those people tend to
Speaker 2: have a very disciplined sense of how to set their
Speaker 2: practice up so that every time they are hitting a
Speaker 2: shot and they're making a repetition, they're making a quality
Speaker 2: attempt to do it the way they're trying to do it,
Speaker 2: as opposed to like you said, which you were spot
Speaker 2: on hit and then respond hit and then look at
Speaker 2: the look at the outcome.
Speaker 3: Because if you're waiting.
Speaker 2: For the outcome to give you to give you like,
Speaker 2: oh I did it right or not, you've already lost
Speaker 2: You've lost the point. Because the point is not to
Speaker 2: just swing the way you void's done it and hope
Speaker 2: for something different, but actually to have a plan, like
Speaker 2: a clear intention and then make a change. And like
Speaker 2: on the front end another orson, you're going to think
Speaker 2: you're going to do something differently, I'm going to do
Speaker 2: something differently. I'm going to I'm going to initiate my
Speaker 2: pelvis or whatever. Back to that one example, and then
Speaker 2: do it and then figure out whether you did it
Speaker 2: or not right afterwards, like give yourself some good feedback.
Speaker 2: So you can do that with video if you want,
Speaker 2: or you need someone to or you need a training
Speaker 2: in aid, or you need something to give you a
Speaker 2: good sense of whether or not you can adhere to
Speaker 2: your intention on that.
Speaker 1: I remember watching my dad teach once and he was
Speaker 1: having someone try and work on the backswen was going
Speaker 1: a little bit too inside, so he was trying to
Speaker 1: get him to take it a little bit more outside.
Speaker 1: And the player said, now that just feels terrible. And
Speaker 1: he said something that's always stuck with me, and he said, well,
Speaker 1: if it didn't feel terrible, it wouldn't mean that, it
Speaker 1: would mean that you weren't changing anything. It didn't feel
Speaker 1: very very different, very very foreign to what you normally do.
Speaker 1: That shows you that you're making a change. And I
Speaker 1: think so many golfers are reluctant to kind of go
Speaker 1: through that period. I don't I don't believe that when
Speaker 1: you take a golf lesson you have to get worse
Speaker 1: before you get better. But I do think there is
Speaker 1: always going to be kind of that betting in period
Speaker 1: to where okay, my fields are different now I'm used
Speaker 1: to you know, I've got that kind of slicers inside
Speaker 1: backswing and then come massively over the top. That gets
Speaker 1: ingrained in your golf swing. And that's why people do
Speaker 1: what they do, because they form a habit of the
Speaker 1: way they move and the way their body moves and
Speaker 1: the way they move the golf club. So I do
Speaker 1: think that it is hard for a lot of players
Speaker 1: to stick with it long enough for a change to happen.
Speaker 1: Is there a time frame, Trillium that you've kind of
Speaker 1: looked at through all your studyings of motor learning and stuff?
Speaker 1: I mean, how long do you think it takes for
Speaker 1: players The average golfer who's going to play golf maybe
Speaker 1: once a week, maybe hit golf balls once a week.
Speaker 1: That's not what we see from professional golfers who are
Speaker 1: making changes in their golf swings all the time.
Speaker 2: All the time. It's their job, and they go out
Speaker 2: every day. They go every day. And you know, if
Speaker 2: you played any high school or college sports, you went
Speaker 2: out every day too, right, let's not forget every day.
Speaker 2: So for some reason, we've got this idea that we
Speaker 2: can take a lesson once a week, and once a
Speaker 2: week would even be a pretty quick cadence for a
Speaker 2: recreational golfer, they're like, what once every two weeks, Well,
Speaker 2: what are you doing within that two weeks? So there's
Speaker 2: no definitive repetition timeline about pattern changes because every pattern
Speaker 2: change is different for some people. So for example, if
Speaker 2: you been swinging a certain way for twenty years and
Speaker 2: you're then trying to make a change, that's that is
Speaker 2: a deeply ingrained habit. Like you just said, that's going
Speaker 2: to take some time. So I respect those I respect
Speaker 2: those players, and I respect those patterns greatly because you know,
Speaker 2: it's got to be worth it got to be well
Speaker 2: worth making that change, right, because it's going to take
Speaker 2: a lot of time if you're sort of still green,
Speaker 2: or you're still new, or it's or you know, I
Speaker 2: always love the player who's always tinkering and so like,
Speaker 2: they could do lots of different things. I kind of
Speaker 2: say that sarcastically, because sometimes that can be very, very dangerous.
Speaker 2: If someone's may makes lots of changes all the time,
Speaker 2: then they're capable of, like anything's capable of bubbling to
Speaker 2: the top. I'd almost rather see somebody not make drastic
Speaker 2: swing changes all the time. So they kind of have
Speaker 2: a big It's like if you're water coloring with lots
Speaker 2: of colors, you end up with just brown. So timeline, Hey,
Speaker 2: it depends on the player if you want to go,
Speaker 2: if you want to go pretty quickly and making that
Speaker 2: change and not telling you anything you don't know. But
Speaker 2: from a motor learning standpoint, you want to do small
Speaker 2: doses frequently as opposed to massing your large time of
Speaker 2: practice infrequently. So ten minutes every day. If you can
Speaker 2: get ten minutes, if you get fifteen minutes, if you
Speaker 2: can get an hour every day, that's better than doing
Speaker 2: a big massive It's like going to the gym. Go
Speaker 2: to the gym every day, do something every day, even
Speaker 2: if it's little, rather than go to the gym once
Speaker 2: every two weeks for two hours.
Speaker 1: So yeah, because I do think when players are trying
Speaker 1: to make swing changes, they don't realize. I mean, first
Speaker 1: of all, I think golfers, recreational golfers are so influenced
Speaker 1: by television. I think the only real negative effect of
Speaker 1: Tiger and his career have been how many different times
Speaker 1: he's changed his golf swings. We're always talking about when
Speaker 1: he is changing his golf swing, and people think, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to change my entire golf swing with
Speaker 1: what I do. Get Number one, how talented professionals are
Speaker 1: that do that, How frequently they are practicing playing hitting
Speaker 1: golf balls. So I think it's it's somewhat at times
Speaker 1: it's like it's glamorous to go through a swing chains
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking that's the worst possible scenario to be
Speaker 1: in as a golfers where you have to make a massive,
Speaker 1: massive change.
Speaker 2: On that point, I love Dustin Johnson. I love when
Speaker 2: he says an oppressor, okay, what do you think about
Speaker 2: when you just shot sixty two and he's like, not much,
Speaker 2: and then you've got two million club golfers saying, well great,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to think about much either.
Speaker 1: What helps to be? It helps if you're DJ, it
Speaker 1: always helps. The talent level with DJ is always it's
Speaker 1: always helpful to have that. But no, I think you're right,
Speaker 1: and I think that. I also think it's important, truly
Speaker 1: to understand part of our job as instructors. You know this,
Speaker 1: we're part psycholog just as we are instructors. You're trying
Speaker 1: to figure out what type of learner the student is.
Speaker 1: I think for those of us in the instruction business.
Speaker 1: You take a lot from what that person does for
Speaker 1: a living, right, if they are an engineer, if they
Speaker 1: are in finance, if they are in you know, R
Speaker 1: and D, or in any sort of development in tech.
Speaker 1: They're wired differently than someone who's a musician, an actor,
Speaker 1: someone who's much more creative. So I also think it's
Speaker 1: incumbent upon instructors listening to this. But you have to
Speaker 1: know what type of learner your student is. You have
Speaker 1: to ask the right questions so that you can say, Okay,
Speaker 1: what type of approach am I going to have with
Speaker 1: this player. So as much as we're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how players from a motor learning standpoint, for the
Speaker 1: instructors out there listening, what are some tips some tools
Speaker 1: that you think you could take from your background in
Speaker 1: all of this motor learning that instructors could take and say, listen, Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe I should try and phrase this a certain way.
Speaker 1: Are there any tips or tricks that you use that
Speaker 1: you think could be helpful for the instructors listening?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 2: Sure, and I'm sure there's a lot of good we pulled.
Speaker 2: Everyone everyone have their own processes that some of them
Speaker 2: work too. I always ask, right, off the bat. Why
Speaker 2: somebody is with me? Because I know you don't see
Speaker 2: that many You don't see that many new players, right, Claude, No,
Speaker 2: I still do.
Speaker 1: Listen, I've got I've got academies in Dubai, just opened
Speaker 1: up one in Thailand. Anytime I go there, I'm giving
Speaker 1: golf lessons. Yeah, I mean, I tend to work with
Speaker 1: some of the good elite juniors. But I was in
Speaker 1: Thailand about a month ago opening up my new academy
Speaker 1: and I had I think, I think we had seventy
Speaker 1: jew years who were not elite juniors, a lot of
Speaker 1: which were beginning golfers that I had to that I
Speaker 1: had about an hour and a half to two hours
Speaker 1: to get through all seventy and so I always say
Speaker 1: when I'm in that situation, in my head, I'm thinking, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is to me as an instructor, this is speed chess.
Speaker 1: This isn't me sitting there having tons of time to
Speaker 1: look at a chessboard and kind of plan my moves
Speaker 1: and stuff. I'm probably going to see each of those
Speaker 1: players for maybe three to five minutes, just because I've
Speaker 1: got to try and get through a lot of them.
Speaker 1: And I'm always trying to figure out, Okay, what can
Speaker 1: I do very very quickly that can make a significant
Speaker 1: change to the ballflight, to the sound of the contact
Speaker 1: really really quickly. So yeah, I mean, listen, I'm not
Speaker 1: Sean Foley right falls only works with superstars. Now, if
Speaker 1: you're not a billionaire or an elite golfer, Sean Foley
Speaker 1: isn't teaching. And he'll tell you that. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: not a it's not a disc on Seean. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I still I think I don't ever want to get
Speaker 1: to a point where I'm just working with elite players.
Speaker 1: That's not the reality for me of what golf instruction is.
Speaker 1: Golf instruction is helping people at all levels. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I know I still work. I still I mean my
Speaker 1: club at the Floridian, it's a private club. I still
Speaker 1: have to teach the members their wives, girlfriends, uncles, kids
Speaker 1: and stuff. So yeah, I still teach you. If I love.
Speaker 2: I pick it up right there. And you said in
Speaker 2: the initially you said type of learner, And I'll pick
Speaker 2: up right there, you know, because people are wired, they
Speaker 2: think differently, and they want different things.
Speaker 3: And they and they love.
Speaker 2: I love the idea that I could find somebody somebody's job.
Speaker 2: Initially if I asked, always care, not caring about what
Speaker 2: they do necessarily because I want to chit chat as
Speaker 2: much as I want to find out how their brain works.
Speaker 2: And I have taught a NASA scientist who work on rockets,
Speaker 2: and that person would happen to be really receptive of
Speaker 2: the numbers, really receptive and understood numbers way more than
Speaker 2: the average person very quickly, probably better than I understood
Speaker 2: the numbers is when I first started working with them, right.
Speaker 2: But then at the same time, somebody who hasn't really
Speaker 2: played a lot of sports, they may need to have
Speaker 2: some feels and may even if they are great with numbers,
Speaker 2: they still need to have some examples of how to
Speaker 2: get the feel going. So I like giving a lot
Speaker 2: of demonstrations. I like, and I also put my hands
Speaker 2: on people after I ask, but I might and I
Speaker 2: might break the and might break the move down, so
Speaker 2: it's smaller. If someone's having a really hard time getting
Speaker 2: a sense of something, I might give them here's your goal.
Speaker 2: Finish at this point, finishing follow through with your shoulder
Speaker 2: down or listening to the ground or your arms out.
Speaker 2: I might give very internal feedback, like with ways to
Speaker 2: think about moving as opposed to external feedback.
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of discussion.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of debate on internal versus external feedback,
Speaker 2: and I have with beginners, I tend to use a
Speaker 2: lot of internal feedback, like I might give them really
Speaker 2: hardcore examples of where they body could should and feel
Speaker 2: certain things.
Speaker 1: For people listen that don't know the difference between the
Speaker 1: internal and external. Explain that so that I think people
Speaker 1: get a better understanding of what that is and how
Speaker 1: they can apply that to their own game and their
Speaker 1: own sway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so internal feedback would be a direction that that
Speaker 2: I give someone like your that's internal to their body.
Speaker 2: So a specific movement that somebody could feel like your elbow,
Speaker 2: to your to your side, feel your you know, real
Speaker 2: weight is.
Speaker 1: Set off on your toes or your heels.
Speaker 2: Right right, like how to do emotion. I may not
Speaker 2: do that. An external feedback would be feel balanced at
Speaker 2: the finish or let's see let's see the ball go higher, right,
Speaker 2: or let's let's have something that's outward of the actual
Speaker 2: how to do the motion.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the external would be more of a concept.
Speaker 1: If you say, listen, we're going to try and get
Speaker 1: the club to work a little bit more from into out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you're going to try and feel like you're swinging
Speaker 1: out to right field or swinging to first base. The
Speaker 1: internal would be something that you would be giving the player. Okay,
Speaker 1: you're going to try and get more pressure into your
Speaker 1: right foot earlier. So that's something that they have to
Speaker 1: feel themselves. It's not a it's a concept, but it's
Speaker 1: not a kind of eighteen thousand foot looking down on
Speaker 1: it concept. It's something that they can actually feel.
Speaker 2: And I'd say that usually athletes do better with the external,
Speaker 2: So I might, and I might even start with external
Speaker 2: with people and then if they really have a tough
Speaker 2: time doing it, give them some internal. Okay, here's here's
Speaker 2: the big concept of what we're doing. Let's see if
Speaker 2: you can do it first. I usually do that with
Speaker 2: with with elite athletes or really really athletic folks, and
Speaker 2: then and then give them some help with the with
Speaker 2: the internal. If it's not working at all, Okay, well
Speaker 2: how do I get there?
Speaker 1: All? Right?
Speaker 2: Well, let's get here's some here's some ideas.
Speaker 3: Give people some ideas.
Speaker 2: So is one better than the other. No, I think
Speaker 2: they're both good, but I might dose them differently.
Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated by people that have been playing golf
Speaker 1: kind of their entire life, and a lot of times
Speaker 1: they'll come in for a golf lesson and the concept
Speaker 1: of what they're doing or the concept of what they
Speaker 1: need to do to hit a good shot, they're not
Speaker 1: even aware of the concept. So in my head, I'm
Speaker 1: always like, Okay, is this a physical issue you is
Speaker 1: this a talent issue? Or is this a concept issue
Speaker 1: that they don't know they're supposed to do that. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the work that you know, Greg
Speaker 1: Rose and Dave Phillips mentors of mine. I know they're
Speaker 1: big mentors of yours as well. I've had them both
Speaker 1: on the podcast. I think they were the first ones
Speaker 1: to kind of talk a lot about early extension, how
Speaker 1: the pelvis, how the lower body works, what good players
Speaker 1: do with their lower body. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people listening to this podcast really don't have a real
Speaker 1: understanding as to how their lower body is actually supposed
Speaker 1: to work in the golf sway, right, talk to me
Speaker 1: about how you feel players could get better by controlling
Speaker 1: what their lower body does. Because I learned from my
Speaker 1: dad he used to always tell me, listen, golf swings
Speaker 1: start from the ground up. He said, I look at
Speaker 1: golf swings from the ground up, from your feet up
Speaker 1: to the top. And I think so many golfers, especially
Speaker 1: recreational handicap mid handicap golfers, they have so much movement
Speaker 1: in what their lower body is doing, how the pelvis works.
Speaker 1: What are some things that you found that can help
Speaker 1: players understand the role and the function of their lower
Speaker 1: body in the golf swing.
Speaker 3: This is another great topic.
Speaker 2: So my original training, when I really decided I wanted
Speaker 2: to be a golf prone in my twenties, was with
Speaker 2: Jim McClain at the Jim McClain Golf School, and Jim
Speaker 2: and your father have always been great friends, a lot
Speaker 2: of mutual respect there, and Jim always came from the
Speaker 2: same perspective that it and your grandfather was one of
Speaker 2: Jim's mentors, which is just a nice lineage. The golf
Speaker 2: school had robbed Neil, doctor. Neil's a biomechanist who did
Speaker 2: a tremendous amount of research on three D and just
Speaker 2: measuring folks. Rob Neil, an academic PhD in biomechanics, comes
Speaker 2: from a scientific process of just measuring, you know, like,
Speaker 2: let's just measure and see what happens. Jim to two
Speaker 2: with two D and two D is great. Two D
Speaker 2: and three D combined kind of led to a tremendous
Speaker 2: amount of validation that any like you and your father
Speaker 2: and lots and lots of other great players at Jimmy Ballard,
Speaker 2: that that the energy in the motion comes from It's
Speaker 2: a chain reaction from from the ground up, from your
Speaker 2: feet to your pelvis, to your torso to the hands
Speaker 2: to the club in that in that in that order.
Speaker 2: So I am just a big proponent also of look
Speaker 2: at look at throwing a ball. I played lacrosse in college.
Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot of similar sequences in different sports,
Speaker 2: especially throwing. So I look at that first, and I
Speaker 2: look at it first because I think people have stronger
Speaker 2: muscles that aren't going to break down. I call it
Speaker 2: a blunt instrument, your your sort of quad flute, hamstring,
Speaker 2: abdominal area, that lower area where you're really creating the
Speaker 2: torque with your pelvis and the ground. And I've just
Speaker 2: seen it the players, even the older ladies. Had a
Speaker 2: lady in her eighties who just still crushed it because
Speaker 2: she had a great kinematic sequence and she can use
Speaker 2: the little body. So where are we going with this?
Speaker 2: Why it's important? I think it's really important. I think
Speaker 2: it's really important because if your lower body is doing
Speaker 2: some work, then your hands at arms don't have to
Speaker 2: be so responsible. Now side note for a sec Someone
Speaker 2: recently showed me a video of a golf instructor online
Speaker 2: and he was talking about how important it is, like
Speaker 2: the power comes from the hands and you start. Remember
Speaker 2: even Jack Nicholas talked about this you.
Speaker 1: Tube, I mean Jim Jackson structor. Jim felt everything in
Speaker 1: the golf swing was what happened with the golf club.
Speaker 2: In your head, right, So okay, I hear you. However,
Speaker 2: I don't think Jack Nicholas needed He had so much
Speaker 2: leg drive he already had.
Speaker 1: So for those that.
Speaker 2: Are really making big points, I mean, I think even
Speaker 2: Tiger at one point said I feel like I'm starting
Speaker 2: with my hand. Well, probably because he had a tremendous
Speaker 2: amount of hip rotation and he was trying to catch
Speaker 2: them up.
Speaker 1: That's my guess.
Speaker 3: I mean, So for those that.
Speaker 2: Are really pointing out hands first, I would ask, respective respectful,
Speaker 2: does that player really need is that player already starting
Speaker 2: with the hips, right, and maybe they're getting two outfront
Speaker 2: with the hips.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think there's a constant battle between
Speaker 1: golfers when they're swinging. It's I think most golfers are
Speaker 1: hyper hyper focused on the golf club and swinging the
Speaker 1: golf club, so they're always focused on In my opinion,
Speaker 1: just in what I've seen over the years, it's kind
Speaker 1: of from the hands to the club head. The focus
Speaker 1: is on what that's doing. And like you said, I
Speaker 1: think one of the easiest ways to gain better control
Speaker 1: over the club head and gain better control over the
Speaker 1: golf club is to move the golf club effectively and
Speaker 1: efficiently with your body and your bigger muscles. I think
Speaker 1: most average golfers, wouldn't you agree, kind of rely on
Speaker 1: their hands for life support. Whereas the best players. I've
Speaker 1: never worked with one tour player on the men's or
Speaker 1: women's tours that have asked me, I need to get
Speaker 1: my hands more active in the golf swing. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: every single one of them is saying, listen, under pressure,
Speaker 1: I feel like my body gets slow, my hands get
Speaker 1: really really active. That's the world that the majority of
Speaker 1: people living in this podcast the body is slow and
Speaker 1: the golf club in the hands get very very active.
Speaker 1: If you are one of those players, and I think
Speaker 1: there will be a lot of people listening today till
Speaker 1: that will feel that. Okay, yeah, that makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: My hands get really active. I can hook it from there,
Speaker 1: I can slice it from there. What are a couple
Speaker 1: of drills that you could give basic drills to help
Speaker 1: people feel that they're activating their bigger muscles as opposed
Speaker 1: to their smaller muscles.
Speaker 3: Ooh, I love it.
Speaker 2: So I'm a big fan of like the fifty yard shot,
Speaker 2: the fifty yard pitching wedge shot. That low trajectory could
Speaker 2: even use a gap wedge where and I stay pitching
Speaker 2: wedge because you're not expecting it to go very far
Speaker 2: to begin with. So the drill is set up on
Speaker 2: a driving ranger. If you're near a green and you're
Speaker 2: going to make some swings without having a whole lot
Speaker 2: of extensionflexion with your wrist, you're basically going to make
Speaker 2: some big chip shots.
Speaker 1: This is the kunt of the way Steve Stricker and
Speaker 1: Jason Day to where there isn't a lot of wrist action.
Speaker 1: It's almost that kind of oar motion instead of anything
Speaker 1: happening with the wrists.
Speaker 3: That's that's right.
Speaker 2: So if you're going to set up with the ball middle,
Speaker 2: you've got your pitching wedge, maybe favor the front foot
Speaker 2: a little bit, You're going to activate your abs to
Speaker 2: bring the club back. You're going to activate all of
Speaker 2: these bigger muscles to rotate. I didn't sometimes call it
Speaker 2: a y, like if your arms in the club are
Speaker 2: making a letter, why.
Speaker 3: Just kind of keep that?
Speaker 2: Why intact back and through?
Speaker 3: So in order to get.
Speaker 2: The club through, you're going to have to rotate your
Speaker 2: trunk and everything. So that just wakes up the body
Speaker 2: and quiets down the wrists.
Speaker 1: I also think what you said there is a great
Speaker 1: way of doing it. The shorter the golf swing. If
Speaker 1: you've got a pitching wedge and you're let's say you
Speaker 1: could hit your pitching wedge one hundred, one hundred and fifteen,
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty five, whatever the distance is. I
Speaker 1: think the advantage of doing that is anytime we're asking
Speaker 1: players to make a shorter, more abbreviated backswing and a
Speaker 1: more abbreviated fullllow through, we're taking a lot of their
Speaker 1: ability to get energy from their arms and their hands
Speaker 1: for power. So I think when you do make that
Speaker 1: little of nine o'clock waist tied back, waist, tied through
Speaker 1: swing with the pitching wedge, it kind of puts you
Speaker 1: in a battle between your lower body. Your bigger muscles
Speaker 1: are battling how much your smaller muscles, your hands, and
Speaker 1: your arms want to move. And so in order to
Speaker 1: hit the golf ball solid with a pitching wedge that
Speaker 1: you could maybe hit one hundred and fifteen yards, we
Speaker 1: ask you to hit that fifty and have the follow
Speaker 1: through the short, have the back fling short. You have
Speaker 1: to figure out, Okay, where is the power going to
Speaker 1: come from? And I think it's a great way for
Speaker 1: you to If that's hard for a player to do,
Speaker 1: then I think that's a really good example of saying, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're probably someone that's probably using your smaller muscles more
Speaker 1: than your bigger muscle. Yeah, because that's hard for you
Speaker 1: to do. So to control the golf club in this
Speaker 1: short period of time and in this short kind of
Speaker 1: backswing and follow through, you're going to have to get
Speaker 1: the power from somewhere else.
Speaker 2: From somewhere else, that's right, And ding ding, ding, If
Speaker 2: that's hard, that means you should probably keep doing it.
Speaker 1: Exactly the balance in twenty twenty four with technology, we
Speaker 1: have so much tech now drill in golf instruction, there's
Speaker 1: so much technology available, launch monitors. You and I are
Speaker 1: big fans of Rhapsodo, but there are loads of launch
Speaker 1: monitors out there, force plates, three D, all of that.
Speaker 1: The balance as an instructor in balancing how much data
Speaker 1: you give to a player, how much data you use,
Speaker 1: and what are some of the tech out there that
Speaker 1: you think are very, very beneficial that can help golfers
Speaker 1: across a wide spectrum. They can help the average golfer
Speaker 1: and help the elite golfer. The role of technology today,
Speaker 1: what it plays in golf instruction, and then what tech
Speaker 1: do you like to use to kind of make changes
Speaker 1: faster with players.
Speaker 2: I think tech has been a huge, huge help to golf.
Speaker 2: And there have been some double edged swords in this,
Speaker 2: but generally speaking, the the amount of information we know
Speaker 2: now about the swing and about the outcome of the
Speaker 2: swing with data that the you know, data crunching on
Speaker 2: tour in our own swings has been monumental. So I'm
Speaker 2: a huge fan in general. Now when we're looking at
Speaker 2: something on you know, a still photo like we started
Speaker 2: with still photos right, or we started cartoons practically, I mean,
Speaker 2: my dad taught me how to play based on some
Speaker 2: hand drawings and magazines, so you know, get to that
Speaker 2: position at the top, Okay, get to this position, you know,
Speaker 2: leading in Okay, P six scarring to be here?
Speaker 3: So is that was that bad?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: I mean I think my dad gave me some pretty
Speaker 2: good info. But we know more now when we see
Speaker 2: it in motion, and we can we can understand when
Speaker 2: we see the swing, we know even more if we
Speaker 2: can see it in three D and we know even
Speaker 2: more we can see the force vectors and the pressure
Speaker 2: we can and we know more. We can actually measure
Speaker 2: where that swing direction of the club was coming from,
Speaker 2: or the angle of attack or the point of contact,
Speaker 2: or the spin or the launch angle. So I'd say
Speaker 2: if for the first step is I think as a
Speaker 2: player is find an instructor who's willing to accept technology
Speaker 2: and has done their job, you know, using launch monitors
Speaker 2: or understanding kind of where where things are as a player.
Speaker 2: I don't think every player needs to hear and see
Speaker 2: and look.
Speaker 3: At all of their data.
Speaker 2: It just just in the same way that I'm going
Speaker 2: to let my surgeon do his job and I'm not
Speaker 2: going to ask him to tell me exactly what he's
Speaker 2: thinking in every step in the way. Because I didn't
Speaker 2: go to medical school, I didn't do a residency, he
Speaker 2: didn't spend twenty years doing surgery. I don't actually need
Speaker 2: to know all that. I just want him to do
Speaker 2: his job right. But if he were doing surgery in
Speaker 2: an office with no instruments, that would be on me
Speaker 2: that I didn't do my homework to find a good surgeon.
Speaker 2: So I think the same way about instructors. Are there
Speaker 2: good instructors that are on a driving range and they
Speaker 2: haven't used everything? Yes, I can think of one, maybe
Speaker 2: Bob Tosky. I mean he's pretty dang good, right, I
Speaker 2: don't think Bob Tosky's using a lot of tech.
Speaker 1: So my dad doesn't use a ton of tech. I
Speaker 1: mean he believes in it, he sees the value in it.
Speaker 1: He grew up in an age. You know, he's eighty
Speaker 1: one in August. He grew up in an era to
Speaker 1: where he didn't have any of that, so he had
Speaker 1: to figure it out another way. He always says that
Speaker 1: if you're just relying on technology to give golf lessons,
Speaker 1: you're probably going to miss something. If you're only using
Speaker 1: your eyes and you're not looking at technology for specific things,
Speaker 1: you could miss something as well. For the player, what
Speaker 1: technology do you think? Give me a couple of pieces
Speaker 1: of technology you think could help every goal for if
Speaker 1: they could use it on a regular basis.
Speaker 2: Carry distances, knowing your carries is probably the biggest one
Speaker 2: for me. Right, Having a launch monitor that you can
Speaker 2: use on a driving range and understand what your carries
Speaker 2: and your totals are boom like, that's that's huge. If
Speaker 2: you knew your path in your face, the club path
Speaker 2: and the face angle, I mean, you can pretty much
Speaker 2: infer that when you see the ball, when you see
Speaker 2: the ball travel, you can kind of okay, I cut
Speaker 2: across it with an open face, that's your slice, or
Speaker 2: I kind of got stuck inside and I flipped my
Speaker 2: hands and I'm smother hooking it. I mean, if you
Speaker 2: understand some basic things, and I don't think I mean,
Speaker 2: just back to your father for a second. I don't
Speaker 2: think your father has ever refuted technology. It's just you know,
Speaker 2: he wasn't picking up a track man and deciding to
Speaker 2: use it himself, right, But it's hit that information. He
Speaker 2: definitely took on tons of information as tech was growing,
Speaker 2: wouldn't you say?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I think he looks at all the
Speaker 1: information and I don't mean this when I say this,
Speaker 1: I don't mean this in an arrogant way. I've talked
Speaker 1: to Greg Rose and Dave Phillips about this. They're like,
Speaker 1: your dad, every time a player comes in, your dad
Speaker 1: is telling them the right thing to work on. And
Speaker 1: he said, if they can't do it and we physically
Speaker 1: screen them, it'll show up. The reason why they can't
Speaker 1: do what he's trying to get them to do in
Speaker 1: the golf swing will be whatever they aren't able to
Speaker 1: do physically. So I think he's probably seen that's been
Speaker 1: validation for him in that he's like, yeah, okay, well
Speaker 1: that I've been out to the TPI with players with
Speaker 1: my dad before, and Gregan and David like, listen, you're
Speaker 1: trying to get this. You're what you're trying to get
Speaker 1: this player to do is exactly what he needs. The
Speaker 1: reason he can't do that is because he can't internally
Speaker 1: rotate onto whatever it is and then in a in
Speaker 1: a in a millisecond, he'll go, oh, yeah, that makes
Speaker 1: total sense in his brain the way it figures out.
Speaker 1: We know that.
Speaker 2: But Jarmon, though has is is but Jarman for all
Speaker 2: the for all the other up and coming instructors or
Speaker 2: instructors that are looking to, you know, to build their craft.
Speaker 2: I think it's helpful to have some evidence on kinematic
Speaker 2: sequencing and pressure and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: You mentioned. Jim McClain, I mean, he's one of the
Speaker 1: icons in golf instruction, you know. I think that Jimmy
Speaker 1: doesn't get enough credit for all the things that he
Speaker 1: bought and tried to figure out. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: Jim's legacy is people like yourself. There's so many people
Speaker 1: whose lives he's touched. What are some of the things
Speaker 1: that you learned in your time with Jim that has
Speaker 1: really stuck with you over the course of your teaching career.
Speaker 3: Where do we start?
Speaker 2: You're quite I mean, Claude, your questions are like anthem questions.
Speaker 2: You can spend the whole hour on that. One of
Speaker 2: the first things Jim said that I'll never ever forget
Speaker 2: so was when I was probably a month into working
Speaker 2: with Jim and his golf schools have a pretty specific system.
Speaker 2: You've got to start as an assistant, and that's a
Speaker 2: hard job to get. I know, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: people that would want that. So it's it's a year,
Speaker 2: two years, and then you're watching instructors. There's there's maybe
Speaker 2: ten to twelve instructors, and you're watching instructors, you're setting
Speaker 2: up the golf school, you're doing all kinds of these
Speaker 2: very tight, tight, tight knit group. There's about thirty and
Speaker 2: you're there quite a bit. So my interest was so
Speaker 2: much into the golf swing because that's why we were there, right,
Speaker 2: that was why we're there studying the golf swing, understanding
Speaker 2: the golf swing. Jim had just come out with that
Speaker 2: that four part series of Ben Hogan. He'd broken down
Speaker 2: like every two seconds of the guy's golf swing went
Speaker 2: into like ten minutes on each one. So Jim was
Speaker 2: walking down the path and I was walking with him,
Speaker 2: and a player had just it was a put with
Speaker 2: a pretty unusual golf swing, and I said, how about
Speaker 2: that win and how about that swing? And Jim looked
Speaker 2: at me and said, well, the golf swing's overrated. I
Speaker 2: love that, and it stopped me in my tracks. And
Speaker 2: it took me a while to think about it. And
Speaker 2: I thought about it, and it really made a ton
Speaker 2: of sense that it's not about what it looks like.
Speaker 2: It's not about making certain things happen because you think
Speaker 2: they should. It's about what the swing can.
Speaker 1: Do, and is it repeatable, And it's.
Speaker 2: Repeatable and it's repeatable under pressure, right.
Speaker 1: My uncle Billy, My uncle Billy said that we were
Speaker 1: in I think I've said this before on the podcast,
Speaker 1: but we were in Vegas where my dad was working
Speaker 1: with Tiger and Adam Scott and Scotty and Tiger are
Speaker 1: there and they're hitting balls. It's like two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: and my uncle Billy was there and he said, you
Speaker 1: know what I find fascinating is every instructor in the world,
Speaker 1: and every golfer in the world wants to be talked
Speaker 1: to swing like Tiger Woods at Adam Scott, and everybody
Speaker 1: wants to swing like Adam Scott and Tiger Woods. And
Speaker 1: he said, but two of the greatest ball strikers I've
Speaker 1: ever seen, hail Irwin and Lee Trevino. Hailerwin was closed,
Speaker 1: took it inside, came over it and hit fades. Trevino
Speaker 1: hit draws was open, took it outside, dropped it under,
Speaker 1: and he said, nobody tries to teach anyone to putt
Speaker 1: like that. You know, I've talked to Phil Kenyan about
Speaker 1: this before. You know, Phil's kind of the putting guru.
Speaker 1: I've had him on the party, works with Scottie Scheffler
Speaker 1: and everybody. But I've heard living down here in Jupiter
Speaker 1: that one of the things that has always kind of
Speaker 1: pissed off Jack Nicholas is no one ever comes and
Speaker 1: asks him about putting. They ask him about how did
Speaker 1: he do it, and handling pressure and winning and all
Speaker 1: this stuff. And I heard someone say once that Jack
Speaker 1: was like, you know, it's amazing to me that I
Speaker 1: pretty much, I mean, Jack made everybody had to make.
Speaker 1: Was probably other than Tiger, the greatest pure performance putter
Speaker 1: of all time. And he said, nobody ever asked me.
Speaker 1: But the method that Jack used with the elbow and
Speaker 1: the kind of squatted over it doesn't look like anything
Speaker 1: you would want to teach, but it was one hundred
Speaker 1: percent functional. Truly have that balance that everybody has. I
Speaker 1: think most golfers, very few golfers like their golfings, even
Speaker 1: on the professional level. I worked with Trevor Immlman. For
Speaker 1: a long time, trev hated his golf swinging at a
Speaker 1: time when Adam Scott and Tiger Woods used to tell me,
Speaker 1: Trev's golf swing looks amazing. The balance between what you
Speaker 1: want your golf the function versus the style, I think
Speaker 1: so many golfers get wrapped up into the style of
Speaker 1: what they want their golf swing to look like as
Speaker 1: opposed to the function of what their golf swing does
Speaker 1: and what their body can do. How can you help
Speaker 1: players balance that out?
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I'm online all function and I think
Speaker 2: this is another way tech has helped because it's beyond
Speaker 2: just video. You know you can you can it's a
Speaker 2: I like the skill thinking about skill rather than the
Speaker 2: you know, the way somebody looks doing it. And that's
Speaker 2: really because our human body is are so complicated and
Speaker 2: they're just really a bunch of chemicals in our brains.
Speaker 2: You've got a thought, You're trying to make that thought
Speaker 2: output through your central nervous system into your motor neurons.
Speaker 2: There's a lot that goes from here into the output
Speaker 2: before before you see the result of that. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of influence and to create something the same way
Speaker 2: every time, especially if it's if it's not comfortable or
Speaker 2: something comfortable to be familiar to you, it can take
Speaker 2: a tremendous amount out of you. So I think people
Speaker 2: look at it the wrong way when they're thinking I
Speaker 2: want it to be a pretty swing or I want
Speaker 2: it to look like that. I like function because function
Speaker 2: also you don't have to think as much. You know, right,
Speaker 2: why are we worrying about what the way it looks?
Speaker 2: I mean, there are certainly players, Like I have a
Speaker 2: guy that doesn't always believe what I'm saying, so I
Speaker 2: show him a video or write and that helps him.
Speaker 2: But like I don't even say things anymore.
Speaker 3: And just show it to him.
Speaker 2: And there are people that don't need to know a
Speaker 2: single thing about what their swing looks like. Okay, I
Speaker 2: have a guy if I just if I set the
Speaker 2: launch monitor, he just he's like, Okay, I get it.
Speaker 2: I want that number positive, a low positive number, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to be okay, right, And that's good. I
Speaker 2: like that because he can then kind of work with
Speaker 2: the feel and then work with trying to make that
Speaker 2: motion happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was working earlier today with Marina Alex who
Speaker 1: I've had on the podcast for Marina plays on the LPGA.
Speaker 1: We were working on swing catalyst and we were looking
Speaker 1: at where her weight is distributed between at impact. One
Speaker 1: of Marina's issues is she kind of, like a lot
Speaker 1: of golfers, in an effort to get power. She's not
Speaker 1: the tallest, you know, she's five to three. She's had
Speaker 1: some back issues. She carries the golf ball with her
Speaker 1: driver about two thirty to two forty. But last year
Speaker 1: on the LPGA tour, she had more fairways than she
Speaker 1: hit greens. Figure that one out. So she drives the
Speaker 1: golf ball on a string. But one of the problem
Speaker 1: that she has, like a lot of players, is in
Speaker 1: an effort to try and get power, she makes this
Speaker 1: massive move off the golf ball, especially with her drivers,
Speaker 1: where she gets almost ninety percent of her weight at
Speaker 1: the top of her backswing on her right leg, her
Speaker 1: trail leg, and then it makes it very difficult for
Speaker 1: her not to stay back there. So this morning we
Speaker 1: were hitting golf balls, Like you said, we were using technology,
Speaker 1: and I was like, listen, we know that when you
Speaker 1: play poorly, you kind of get into that situation to
Speaker 1: where at impact you can kind of sometimes get fifty
Speaker 1: to fifty with your weight at impact, maybe sometimes sixty
Speaker 1: forty on the right as opposed to the left. So
Speaker 1: we were looking at the numbers, and I was just
Speaker 1: giving her a bunch of drills and a bunch of
Speaker 1: things to say, listen, okay, we just need to try
Speaker 1: and keep increasing how much weight you have on your
Speaker 1: front foot at impact. So I said, if we can
Speaker 1: just get it to fifty to fifty, and then if
Speaker 1: we can just keep moving it to where you say,
Speaker 1: all right, and then we would hit some shots, do
Speaker 1: some drills, and Thatt' say okay, now feel like you've
Speaker 1: got sixty percent of your weight on your front footed impact.
Speaker 1: Now get it to seventy. In some drills this morning
Speaker 1: we got it to where it was like eighty. But
Speaker 1: we've probably in the last three four months we've probably changed.
Speaker 1: He's probably gone from kind of more weight on her
Speaker 1: right leged impact with her irons to now we're starting
Speaker 1: to get into that sixty seventy percent on her lead
Speaker 1: foot at impact. So that's something where I think showing
Speaker 1: person up player just basic just numbers. Hey, listen, we
Speaker 1: just need more weight on your front foot. This piece
Speaker 1: of technology shows us that on the bad one you've
Speaker 1: got more weight on your right footed impact than you
Speaker 1: do on your front foot. And then I think it's
Speaker 1: easy for players when they are looking at stuff like that,
Speaker 1: to make changes quite easily. You talked about launch monitors.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons why I'm a huge fan of
Speaker 1: rapsodo listen to the pod on a regular basis. They
Speaker 1: know that. You know I'm a huge fan. I know
Speaker 1: you are as well. But launch monitors are coming down
Speaker 1: in price. They're they're making it much more affordable for
Speaker 1: the average golfer to where it's not the price of
Speaker 1: you know, a four door k a mid sized car.
Speaker 1: Right for players that are going to work on a launder.
Speaker 1: Give me three metrics on a launch monitor that you
Speaker 1: would like a player to look at that you think
Speaker 1: could be beneficial.
Speaker 2: Okay, wedges trajectory, so I like thirty degrees and under.
Speaker 3: For your distance wedges, But Jark, you're going to need
Speaker 3: some higher higher trajectories.
Speaker 1: If you're that's and that's launch angle.
Speaker 2: That's launch angle, Yep, you'll be You'll be looking at
Speaker 2: a soft little shot, okay, but you're not going to
Speaker 2: swing very fast. You're going to need to control your
Speaker 2: landing angle by the by the launch angle. In other words,
Speaker 2: you're going to get it to stop based on the
Speaker 2: launch angle going up. But there are some longer shots
Speaker 2: you're going to hit where you're going to you're going
Speaker 2: to do it with spin. So let's look at either
Speaker 2: your spin or you can look at your You can
Speaker 2: see how the ball reacts on the green, but that
Speaker 2: launch angle can really help keep the launch a little
Speaker 2: lower than you might think. How about your launch angle
Speaker 2: with the driver massive massive, So I like people to
Speaker 2: take a look at that, because what.
Speaker 3: Are we looking for.
Speaker 2: We're looking for a higher launch, not super high, but
Speaker 2: you want enough launch and you want the spin to
Speaker 2: be down so you can carry it optimally.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and high launch low spin is kind of the
Speaker 1: holy grail of driver fitting. And I think a lot
Speaker 1: of that is speed dependent and player dependent. I mean, god,
Speaker 1: Dustin Johnson, he plays his best when he's right around
Speaker 1: like eighteen hundred in spin to kind of twenty one hundred.
Speaker 1: If you have no speed, that's death. You can't you
Speaker 1: can't get away with that. And if you look at
Speaker 1: a guy like Rory McElroy with his driver, Rory is
Speaker 1: hitting up massively on his driver, and I think most
Speaker 1: of the average golfers listening if they were to get
Speaker 1: on a launch monitor, there are times when they hit
Speaker 1: a bad drive to where they'd actually be hitting down
Speaker 1: on it. So I agree with you that launch and
Speaker 1: spin with driver technology and iron technology, I think it
Speaker 1: can kind of paint a really really good picture distance
Speaker 1: control with wedges. How important and what role do you
Speaker 1: feel like having a launch monitor can play in the development.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like it can speed that up if
Speaker 1: the player knows how far their swing needs to go
Speaker 1: back and through to hit it fifty seventy five, those
Speaker 1: scoring clubs, those scoring numbers.
Speaker 2: I think this may be and this is just my opinion.
Speaker 2: I'd love to know what you think. I think the
Speaker 2: distance control with your short game could be where rap
Speaker 2: Sodo really shines the brightest. For me, You pull out
Speaker 2: a full club and you get a sense of how
Speaker 2: far it goes. Okay, But guess what, not all shots
Speaker 2: are going to be full swing, because you're going to
Speaker 2: get close to that green at some point and you're
Speaker 2: going to have to come up with a slower swing,
Speaker 2: a smaller swing. You're gonna have to come up with
Speaker 2: something out of the blue. And figure out where you're
Speaker 2: going to land it, how are you going to do that,
Speaker 2: how are you going to practice that right? So that's
Speaker 2: another thing. People people head out to the golf course
Speaker 2: and they think they were doing so great in the range,
Speaker 2: and my question is, well, were you doing great on
Speaker 2: the range? Like was that range game really as good
Speaker 2: as you think it was? And it didn't take take
Speaker 2: it take it out to the course. I mean, how
Speaker 2: many times did you did you did it take you
Speaker 2: to hit the shot you wanted to hit right, because
Speaker 2: you don't have more than one chance on the golf course,
Speaker 2: but you do in the driving range. The second thing
Speaker 2: on the driving range you can do or with the
Speaker 2: rough sodos you can actually measure.
Speaker 3: You can measure right off the bat.
Speaker 2: So if every shot really counts and you were trying
Speaker 2: to hit a thirty, a forty, a fifty yard carry shot,
Speaker 2: well you can see that. You get that feedback, and
Speaker 2: that's that is invaluable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think people always ask when Dustin Johnson kind
Speaker 1: of changed his wedge game and became one of the
Speaker 1: best wedge players in the world, he got a launch
Speaker 1: monitor and basically he looks at two numbers, carry and
Speaker 1: spin and we were just at a We're just at
Speaker 1: a tournament and he was hitting his fifty two and
Speaker 1: he was like, something's off. That's going too far. He
Speaker 1: said to his brother A J. Go to the truck
Speaker 1: check it. And he's like, either the lie or the
Speaker 1: loft is off, because that swing should produce this number.
Speaker 1: I've hit enough of these, honestly. We took it to
Speaker 1: the it was one degree flat and the loft was
Speaker 1: off by two degrees. I took it back to him
Speaker 1: and he was like, you know, I could feel that
Speaker 1: based off of the work that he'd put in. I
Speaker 1: think for the average goal for if they could just
Speaker 1: get an idea of just some baseline numbers of how
Speaker 1: far do you hit it when you what's your swing
Speaker 1: look like when it's going back fifty yards? Video it,
Speaker 1: what's it look like when it's going back seventy five yards?
Speaker 1: Video that, and then see what the visual of it
Speaker 1: is looking like relative to what the numbers are saying.
Speaker 2: That's that's exactly what I do. I say, go out exactly,
Speaker 2: go out find one. Just start with one swing and
Speaker 2: figure out you can easily measure, say hi like waist high.
Speaker 2: If you're going to go waist hide to waist, hie.
Speaker 2: Just make a bunch of swings, then find out how
Speaker 2: far that went. Then you have a baseline swing. So
Speaker 2: let's say it's forty yards. Great, now you know forty,
Speaker 2: but you also know fifty, and you also know thirty
Speaker 2: because you can go a little bit bigger, faster, or
Speaker 2: smaller and slower from that baseline forty yard shot.
Speaker 1: Really, really, I think it's great, great stuff. Lastly, Trill,
Speaker 1: you're on the Golf died just top hundred lists. You're
Speaker 1: on the Golf or of the top fifty list Golf
Speaker 1: Magazine's Top hundred instructor. We're starting to see more females
Speaker 1: in a predominantly male dominated industry. Are you starting to
Speaker 1: see more females want to not just play golf, but
Speaker 1: actually saying, listen, I'd love to get into golf instruction.
Speaker 1: I teach a girl from Canada. She tried to play,
Speaker 1: tried to play college, she tried to play some professional
Speaker 1: At about two three months ago, she said, listen, I
Speaker 1: really want to get into golf instruction. Obviously, as one
Speaker 1: of the female instructors that are kind of doing the
Speaker 1: same things that the best male instructors in the country
Speaker 1: are doing. Do you feel we're seeing a shift to
Speaker 1: that that are there are more women and girls saying listen,
Speaker 1: I want to try and get into golf instruction.
Speaker 2: I certainly see it. I certainly see it. I see
Speaker 2: a lot more women that are also playing with other
Speaker 2: women and making a whole thing around just having their
Speaker 2: moments on the golf course. Time you see you see
Speaker 2: someone that looks like you doing something, you know, you think, hey,
Speaker 2: I could do that too, And so there we just
Speaker 2: we're seeing a lot more imagery of women in places
Speaker 2: that are that are pretty visible. So yeah, I think
Speaker 2: there's grounds Well, this is probably the first time that
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have had the same number of girls as
Speaker 2: boys in our program, and that's that's pretty big, you know.
Speaker 2: The last you know, the last ten years, I think
Speaker 2: golf courses have had a big uptick in in in
Speaker 2: programs that are that are you know, girlfriendly, you know
Speaker 2: us kids golf has just as many clubs for for girls.
Speaker 2: You might they might paint them pink, but they're they're
Speaker 2: attractive to a little girl. There's nothing different in the
Speaker 2: club from a little boy except they're pink. So trying
Speaker 2: to encourage girls to come out and play. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think that's great. So yeah, I think there's a
Speaker 2: lot more. There's a lot more out there. That's that's
Speaker 2: that's for for women.
Speaker 3: What do what do I mean by that?
Speaker 2: I mean clothes, a lot more golf clothes. You know,
Speaker 2: you go on Instagram and you're going to see you know,
Speaker 2: you can find women, you know, certainly the original the
Speaker 2: original women that are in bathing suits. And I think
Speaker 2: that's that's that's starting to become. I don't know, is
Speaker 2: it more or less. I don't pay as much attention
Speaker 2: to that, but I think the series women playing golf
Speaker 2: and teaching golf, but I'd definitely see more of that.
Speaker 1: Well, long may it continue. Take care of the foot,
Speaker 1: and hopefully are you going to the TPI conference in Orlando.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'll be speaking about coaching as a team the
Speaker 2: female athlete.
Speaker 1: There we go. Well, I didn't even know that. I'm
Speaker 1: teeing all up. I'm teeing all the good questions up
Speaker 1: to you. I will be there as well. Look forward
Speaker 1: to seeing you and take care of the take care
Speaker 1: of the foot. We need you.
Speaker 3: Thanks Claud, great talking to you. Take care.
Speaker 1: So cool. Chat with Trulliam Rose, and like I said,
Speaker 1: she might not be a household name, but there are
Speaker 1: there so many golf instructors out there that are just
Speaker 1: giving good quality golf lessons. And one of the cool
Speaker 1: things about having your own podcast is you can have
Speaker 1: people on that you want to pick and that you
Speaker 1: want to choose, and it's easy to go to all
Speaker 1: the superstars and golf instructions, people like my dad who's
Speaker 1: been on. People are Mark Blackburn who's been on, people
Speaker 1: like Sean Foley who have been on, Chris Como, all
Speaker 1: of the superstars of golf instruction. But Trillium is just
Speaker 1: one of those people out there giving good quality golf lessons.
Speaker 1: I'm a fan and I really like her approach and
Speaker 1: hopefully everybody learns some stuff that they can use to
Speaker 1: shoot lower scores and enjoy their golf more. Son of It,
Speaker 1: which comes to you almost every Wednesday. We will see
Speaker 1: you next week.