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Speaker 1: I got to tell you when I first heard about

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Speaker 1: a county sheriff shooting a judge, the first thing I

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Speaker 1: thought about was my last official day with the Fulton

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Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Department, and that was the day of our

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Speaker 1: courthouse shooting. On that day, Judge Roland Barnes, court reporter

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Speaker 1: Julie Brando, and Sheriff's Deputy Howait Teasley were all murdered.

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Speaker 1: It was March eleventh, two thousand and five, and that

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Speaker 1: day I stood Bravo on Central Avenue before going into

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Speaker 1: Central Command Center. I have just got to bring my

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Speaker 1: friend in, Joshua Schiffer, because y'all know him, y'all respect him,

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Speaker 1: you trust him, and josh I just got to ask you.

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Speaker 1: You know, people don't understand the relationship. They think there's

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Speaker 1: the prosecution and the defense and everybody hates everybody, and

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Speaker 1: then everybody hates the judge, and that's just not true.

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Speaker 1: We have deep friendships and deep respect and sometimes we

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Speaker 1: become family.

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Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, Mack. I was sadly there like you.

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Speaker 2: This was the office that I went to every single day.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it's a big court building. It's actually a complex.

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Speaker 2: There's three buildings built at different times tied together. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of this mess insight, but we made it work.

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Speaker 2: And even as the largest jurisdiction in one of our

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Speaker 2: largest states, it's a small family. And you couldn't have

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Speaker 2: practiced in Fulton County for more than thirty days without

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Speaker 2: running into Hoyt at the security check in without seeing

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Speaker 2: or hearing about Judge Barnes and what he was doing.

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Speaker 2: Judge Barnes was one of the only defense perspective judges

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Speaker 2: that had come out of the defense universe and talk

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Speaker 2: about loved. He was a friend of the prosecution, He

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Speaker 2: was a friend of the defense. He was a friend

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Speaker 2: of people correct, and he lived in the community on

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Speaker 2: the south side of Atlanta, and everybody knew that if

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Speaker 2: you got Judge Bart, you were going to get a

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Speaker 2: fair shot. He wasn't one of these judges that people

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Speaker 2: him and haw about. He was one of these judges

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Speaker 2: that everybody loved and respected because he did the right thing.

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Speaker 2: He called the balls and the strikes. And then you

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Speaker 2: get into the other victims of that day and you

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Speaker 2: realize how we're still connected. You know, over a decade later.

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Speaker 1: It was career changing, life changing. It left a mark

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Speaker 1: own our courthouse that I am telling you will be

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Speaker 1: generational because you know, Josh always felt safe in the courthouse.

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Speaker 1: I always felt like every single person there was there

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Speaker 1: to protect somebody, to help somebody.

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Speaker 2: And the great part about being part of that family

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Speaker 2: and people I was there literally every day. We're there

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Speaker 2: to fight, We're there to have contests of intelligence and

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Speaker 2: facts and all. But the only way you can do

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Speaker 2: that is by establishing a protected playground and a sandbox.

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Speaker 2: That's what Hoyt Teasley did. That's what Judge Barnes guaranteed,

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Speaker 2: is that you could come and have your intellectual battle

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Speaker 2: without the fear of physical harm and violence like this

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Speaker 2: in a courthouse robs everyone and makes it impossible to

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Speaker 2: do our jobs when we have violence like this.

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Speaker 1: And I know for me on that day, hoy Teasley

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Speaker 1: could arrest you and put you in jail and take

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Speaker 1: your freedom, so could Judge Barnes. But Julie, She's the

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Speaker 1: only one that was there to get your side on paper,

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Speaker 1: so that if you had a reason for appeal down

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Speaker 1: the road, it was because of her. Nobody deserved it.

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Speaker 1: She was the least that deserved what happened to her.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion.

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Speaker 2: When you talk about the butterfly effect of violence, Julie

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Speaker 2: was a big part of that because she had nothing

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Speaker 2: that was going to negatively affect Brian Nichols. But his anger,

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Speaker 2: his spark of violence against the judge, his spark of

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Speaker 2: violence against the prosecution team, that butterfly effect, those ripples

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Speaker 2: stole Julie, stole Wilhelm, stole Miss Smith. We haven't talked

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Speaker 2: about the deputy who had the brain injury. When Brian

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Speaker 2: Nichols clocked her head up against the knee wall in

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Speaker 2: the holding area, then I knew, Missman. She was an

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Speaker 2: I don't mean to you, don't take it. She was

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Speaker 2: this heavy set, older African American lady with a deep

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Speaker 2: baritone voice, and she sang. She was like everybody's grandmother.

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Speaker 2: I worked with her every day, sweet lady. Never the same,

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Speaker 2: never the same.

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Speaker 1: Because after he clocked her with his elbow, which knocked

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Speaker 1: her out, she hit a marble floor and cracked her skull.

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Speaker 1: I mean, a severe injury. Again, she didn't deserve it

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Speaker 1: doing her job.

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Speaker 2: And it breaks my heart to think about what's going

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Speaker 2: on here in Kentucky because it's magnified.

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Speaker 1: It's magnified. Oh, my gosh, you're talking about a county

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Speaker 1: of seventeen hundred people. Josh, everybody is connected. You either

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Speaker 1: went to high school or church, or you worked with

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Speaker 1: or you dated, or you're related to everybody in that town.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about a town that's smaller than a high school. Correct,

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Speaker 2: And to think about that, and to think about how

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Speaker 2: suddenly now we have this short video of inexplicable horror.

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Speaker 2: You see how fast a deadly instrumentality like a gun

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Speaker 2: changes a conversation into a death. And I don't want

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Speaker 2: to get off onto a tangent about Second Amendment. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a huge Second Amendment fan, but I'm scared to

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Speaker 2: death about how gun violence is affecting our communities. And

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Speaker 2: this is an illustration exactly of how the best people,

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Speaker 2: the people we love, the people we've chosen to protect us,

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Speaker 2: we've chosen to keep our kids and family and property

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Speaker 2: and animals safe, they have bad days and bad moments

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Speaker 2: were the best of us lose the ability to control

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Speaker 2: ourselves like a savage animal. And I've been there. I've

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Speaker 2: been so angry I could see red. I've been so angry.

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Speaker 2: I've done things that I regret, and it's when you

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Speaker 2: introduce then the idea of instant death in your hand,

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Speaker 2: that that becomes extra scary and it is not a

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Speaker 2: solution for But this is just yet another illustration of

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Speaker 2: how we need to deal with firearms, because these were

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Speaker 2: guys that you know, you give firearm tomorrow man, you're

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Speaker 2: talking about a shriff, You're talking about a judge. Yep,

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Speaker 2: those are the two guys. I definitely want to have guns, yes,

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Speaker 2: as awful as it is. But then we see this

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Speaker 2: mysterious conversation between the two of them that we don't

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Speaker 2: have the details of, we have some speculation, but it

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Speaker 2: resulted in the death of someone that from all report

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Speaker 2: it was, you know, a great, great guy in the

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Speaker 2: community that was trusted. He ran a busy court. He

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Speaker 2: ran the court that basically, if you had an issue

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Speaker 2: in the county, you'd probably go see him first, unless

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Speaker 2: you you did something real bad. He did your traffic,

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Speaker 2: he did your property, he did the daily court.

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Speaker 1: Josh. Between these two men, everybody at some point in

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Speaker 1: their life had a reason to deal with them. You

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Speaker 1: either went to one of them for a gun, per

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Speaker 1: mint or fingerprinting, or a ticket or an arrest or

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Speaker 1: a marriage license or some type of court hearing you

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Speaker 1: were either a victim or an accuse sitting in front

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Speaker 1: of one or both of them. I mean, it's just

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Speaker 1: mind boggling to me that when you are going to

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Speaker 1: cast this net to find witnesses and people that may

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Speaker 1: have some information, these two people were connected on every level,

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Speaker 1: weren't they.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you really can't get away from the size of

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Speaker 2: this community. This is so tight that we've already got

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Speaker 2: the recusal of the local DA because the DA and

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Speaker 2: the judgment married sisters. And that's the kind of community.

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Speaker 2: You know, all these people go to the same handful

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Speaker 2: of churches. And when I think about a town like

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Speaker 2: this and the town that I spent time in as

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Speaker 2: a child, you know, there's the big Methodist church and

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Speaker 2: the big Baptist church in the big am and you know,

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Speaker 2: that's how the community is put together. So that's exactly

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Speaker 2: how the community falls apart. And that's really my fear

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Speaker 2: is that this death, this incident is gonna just render

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Speaker 2: this community to rubble. And I hope local leadership, especially

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Speaker 2: the faith community, is ready to deal with it because

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Speaker 2: it just breaks my heart to know what happens to

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Speaker 2: the kids of this community and the future of this community.

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Speaker 1: And you know, right now, rumors are wildfires, and there

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Speaker 1: is information already out there that the sheriff's minor daughter,

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Speaker 1: her phone number was possibly in the judge's phone. We

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Speaker 1: know from the video that the sheriff made a call

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Speaker 1: on the judge's phone. So again, there's more pain and

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Speaker 1: more hurt coming for this community.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's talk about some of those rumors right now,

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Speaker 2: because they came out, I'm telling you, within an hour

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Speaker 2: of the shooting. The social media universe was frothing. And

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Speaker 2: I love that because you like Misha, you love information.

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Speaker 2: You love the intimacy and the direct information we get

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Speaker 2: from primary sources. Like they taught us about in elementary school,

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Speaker 2: if you want the truth, you got to go to

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Speaker 2: the primary source. And that's the great thing about social media.

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Speaker 2: But it also starts some real painful, horrible and wrongful

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Speaker 2: information from spreading out there. So let's talk about what

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Speaker 2: we really do know. We know that these gentlemen had

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Speaker 2: known each other for years, that they shared tons of friends,

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Speaker 2: that they'd literally eaten lunch together prior to the shooting.

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Speaker 2: And the lawyers come out and already talked about the

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Speaker 2: fact that the limited number of statements we know about.

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Speaker 2: There was some mention of needing to meet privately in

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Speaker 2: chambers between these two men. We know that they had

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Speaker 2: worked together and the sheriff had actually been the bailiff

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Speaker 2: in judges' courtroom for a little bit. We know that

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Speaker 2: there was a lawsuit that had been filed previously about

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Speaker 2: some behavior with another deputy and an inmate in the judges' chambers.

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Speaker 2: Don't know what happened with it, don't know what the

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Speaker 2: truth is. We know the allegations, but I'm a plaintiff

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Speaker 2: lawyer too, I know sometimes the allegations don't necessarily mean

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Speaker 2: the truth at all times, so we don't know what's

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Speaker 2: going on there. But most importantly, we've got this issue

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Speaker 2: with the judge's mine or daughter and her connectability and

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Speaker 2: whatever was going on between the sheriff and the judges

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Speaker 2: I think around fifteen sixteen year old teenage daughter, with

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Speaker 2: the current most firm allegation being that there was some

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Speaker 2: sort of contact that is alluded to be inappropriate between

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Speaker 2: the judge and the depth or the sheriff's daughter, And

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Speaker 2: we know that after the shooting. Really the only phrase

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Speaker 2: we know after the shooting involves the sheriff asking law

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Speaker 2: enforcement to treat them fairly.

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Speaker 1: And that, to me is a powerful statement.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how you want to chop it up,

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Speaker 2: but to me, it's an admission. It's super admissible. It's

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Speaker 2: coming in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it should. And I'll tell you something. To me,

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Speaker 1: I take that as what I did. I'm telling you

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Speaker 1: I did it, but I'm telling you I had a

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Speaker 1: reason to do it, and I would do it again.

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Speaker 2: One of the core things that make us American our

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Speaker 2: available affirmative defenses for our actions. And we've talked about

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Speaker 2: this a million times. There's three unbelievable well built in.

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Speaker 2: You get them, no matter what defense is to any allegation.

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Speaker 2: It was in me. I didn't do it, and he

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Speaker 2: needed kill it.

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Speaker 1: And let's just talk about men and women for a minute.

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Speaker 1: There is something primal about protecting the people you love.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: My son, when it comes to his sister, we didn't

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Speaker 1: teach him that. We never told him, Hey, any boy

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Speaker 1: she dates, mistreat him a little bit, don't let him

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Speaker 1: have a pass. Let him know what would happen if

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Speaker 1: she gets hurting anyway.

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Speaker 2: And it's that combination, and no one knows the answers

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Speaker 2: what's built into our very souls of creation. Okay, the

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Speaker 2: moment you arrive here in creation, you are going to

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Speaker 2: protect yourself and pro create. As part of that, you're

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Speaker 2: going to protect the people in your tribe, in your community,

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Speaker 2: and your family to do those things. And that involves

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Speaker 2: if you see someone getting this treated that's that close,

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Speaker 2: especially someone vulnerable, especially someone who's not mature enough to

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Speaker 2: necessarily defend yourself defend themselves. It creates that obligation you

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Speaker 2: have as a family member to protect the ones you love.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but Josh, you think in your past you have

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Speaker 1: a string of romantic people. There's your mama. But when

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Speaker 1: it comes to your daughter, oh boy, could you think

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Speaker 1: of anything that would cause you to just completely lose

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Speaker 1: everything that you are more than defending her protecting her.

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Speaker 2: I think that you see the vector of protection being

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Speaker 2: one of self sacrifice in this.

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Speaker 1: Situation without thinking about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so when I reverse roles, which is the most

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Speaker 2: powerful tool you have as an analyst of life, is

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Speaker 2: the ability to reverse roles to get insightens why they

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Speaker 2: don't let you talk about it in trial. You have

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Speaker 2: the ability to think about why that person made the decision.

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Speaker 2: We've got a very educated, sophisticated, grounded man walking in

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Speaker 2: with a firearm and coldly, calculatedly shooting a judge. But

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Speaker 2: it's based on emotion. Sure, is there some sort of

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Speaker 2: pre thought premeditation. It's going to be a big question

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Speaker 2: for the DA or is this something where the sheriff

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Speaker 2: is going to say, when I confirmed this terrible news,

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Speaker 2: I knew what I had to do, and that's protect

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Speaker 2: my child in the future, not just now, in the future,

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Speaker 2: because that's a lot of this. You can't stop lots

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Speaker 2: of things in this world unless you're going to be

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Speaker 2: prepared to stop them permanently.

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Speaker 1: When we watch the video, the sheriff starts the far

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Speaker 1: right of the screen, He moves all the way left

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Speaker 1: to the side of the desk where the judge is

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Speaker 1: now hiding. He walks all the way back to the

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Speaker 1: far right, bends down under the desk and fires. More So,

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Speaker 1: premeditation is owned the table, at least in the second

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Speaker 1: series of shots.

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Speaker 2: The arguments for charging and people get lost in Oh,

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Speaker 2: it's murder, it's manslaughter, it's involunt Well, this is going

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Speaker 2: to be the example of how that argument takes place,

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Speaker 2: because you can't say you can't deny that there was

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Speaker 2: an issue happening when the two men enter the room.

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Speaker 2: There's clearly some sort of reason for the meeting. And

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Speaker 2: then you've got the trigger, which is whatever the statement, confirmation,

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Speaker 2: meeting of the minds or not meeting of the minds,

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Speaker 2: that triggers the violence. And it's that inflection point. It's

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Speaker 2: that nexus that the District Attorney's office has to look

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Speaker 2: at when deciding whether there was some form of premeditation,

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Speaker 2: what part of this had some aggravation, Where could outrageous

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Speaker 2: emotional influences take over the mind and body of an

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Speaker 2: otherwise remarkable public person and public servant, And what kind

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Speaker 2: of emotional issue would happen to justify them deviating so

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Speaker 2: much from their sworn and moral duties to end the

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Speaker 2: life of one of the community leaders, someone that he knew,

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Speaker 2: someone that he knew deeply, someone that was connected family,

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Speaker 2: someone that was an important part of the community. And

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Speaker 2: that's where they're going to get into the argument of

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Speaker 2: premeditation and the death penalty, y'all versus a lower charge

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Speaker 2: such as manslaughter, and we don't know what those facts are.

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Speaker 2: You that's going to be part of a tragic analysis

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Speaker 2: as this case of.

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Speaker 1: Alls and Josh, I just want to say again so

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Speaker 1: that everybody is super clear, there are times if you

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Speaker 1: were to go to a DA or to a judge

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Speaker 1: and say, look, I've never come to you. I am

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Speaker 1: telling you this person does not belong in jail. They

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Speaker 1: need help, they would hear you. And so at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, the prosecutor, the judge, the defense attorney,

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Speaker 1: everybody's there to help. And this judge and this sheriff,

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Speaker 1: we're doing great things about getting fitanel off the street

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Speaker 1: and making sure people got help with abuse, not just jail.

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Speaker 1: Jail is not going to cure that problem, but getting

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Speaker 1: them help will, understanding the disease will. This community didn't

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Speaker 1: just lose two people that worked for the local government.

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Speaker 1: They lost people they trusted, people that were looking out

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Speaker 1: for them, people that kept them safe, people that wanted

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Speaker 1: the best for them. So again, the level of hurt

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Speaker 1: on all sides. Think of the number of people just

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Speaker 1: like us that fateful March day. You lose multiple friends.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Walt and I were talking not long

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Speaker 1: ago that, you know, jokingly kind of but not really.

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Speaker 1: We're almost at the age if we were to meet

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Speaker 1: somebody today. I don't know that we can be friends

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Speaker 1: twenty years. We may not have twenty years, but this community,

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Speaker 1: this is that's going to be generational pain, I'm telling you.

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Speaker 2: And then I put on my more clinical government hat

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Speaker 2: and I look at the institutional loss when when you

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Speaker 2: try to distill it down into something as dumb as money,

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Speaker 2: you're talking about two individ Just take the sheriff and

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Speaker 2: the judge. You're talking about several years of education. That's

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Speaker 2: that's worked specific. But then you've got decades of training.

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Speaker 2: You don't just get to be a judge or a sheriff,

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Speaker 2: and you know that's it used to know. The investment

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Speaker 2: in the community from training and public facilities is huge.

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Speaker 2: But even more than that is that institutional knowledge of

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Speaker 2: how it all connects. You can't just go plug somebody

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Speaker 2: in that knows all these people, that knows the dynamic.

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Speaker 2: That's the importance of ultralocal control. It's why every state

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Speaker 2: has these lower levels of government interaction where you need

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Speaker 2: someone who's part of the community because they understand and

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Speaker 2: your low traditions, your local rules, your local understandings. That's

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Speaker 2: the barrier where most people interact with the government and

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Speaker 2: to lose two people with that much institutional knowledge, decades

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Speaker 2: of connections, decades of training, decades of understanding the problems

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Speaker 2: intimately so they can make the best solutions in their mind.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying the solutions are right or wrong, but

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Speaker 2: just being exposed to the problem for that long makes

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Speaker 2: you a better public servant at addressing things like fetanyl.

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Speaker 2: We weren't ready for fetanyl. Fetanal is a scourge. It

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Speaker 2: makes meta and fetamines look like tic TACs.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 2: And these officers were raised, these these public servants, like

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Speaker 2: my generation, like your generation. We each have our struggles

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Speaker 2: that are that are taking over our industry. And in

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Speaker 2: the in the eighties it was this crack epidemic, then

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Speaker 2: we moved on to different stuff in the nineties, then

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Speaker 2: the two that now we have fentanyl. When we lose

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Speaker 2: two people so deeply involved in our criminal justice system,

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Speaker 2: it sets back the whole area in fighting the scourges

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Speaker 2: that we ask law enforcement and our government to protect

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Speaker 2: us from.

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Speaker 1: Now, Joshua Schieffer, let's just get real. The next thing

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Speaker 1: I'm fixing to say to you as a defense attorney

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Speaker 1: should make you just need to lie down with a

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Speaker 1: cool rag on your head. What is going to happen

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Speaker 1: to all the criminal cases that both of these men

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Speaker 1: are in trent with.

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Speaker 2: Well, unfortunately, we have some rules and stuff set up

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Speaker 2: to keep the system of justice rolling along. It's just

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Speaker 2: bumpy and some of our constitutional guarantees now they get

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Speaker 2: a little bit wigglier. When it comes to replacement individuals.

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Speaker 2: The state bar is going to come in and make

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Speaker 2: sure that someone is competent and available to serve. When

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Speaker 2: it comes to basic law enforcement operations, there's a chain

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Speaker 2: of command, and now that the sheriff has resign I'm

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Speaker 2: certain that there was an assumption of an interim chief

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Speaker 2: Sheriff or head sheriff. Hopefully Andy Basheer, who obviously is

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Speaker 2: deeply aware of what's going on, his state agencies get

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Speaker 2: to step in and try to ensure as much as

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Speaker 2: possible the continuation of government services to a minimum level.

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Speaker 2: And thankfully this part of Kentucky didn't get beat up

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Speaker 2: like so much of the rest of Appalachia here recently.

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Speaker 2: God God forbid that. But the system's going to get

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Speaker 2: its hiccup. There are going to be some problems where

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Speaker 2: people's cases weren't dealt with appropriately and the system has

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Speaker 2: remedies such as your speedy trial, and unfortunately some things

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Speaker 2: are going to take longer than they otherwise would, but

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Speaker 2: there are remedies for that, letting people out on bond,

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Speaker 2: you know, bringing in it associate judges. Lots of times

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Speaker 2: you see trials being done by semi retired or senior

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Speaker 2: judges visiting judges from other communities because this was a

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Speaker 2: law not just in the community, but the statewide organization.

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Speaker 2: The other sheriffs know the sheriff, the other judges know

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Speaker 2: the judge. When Judge Barnes was assassinated, one of the

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Speaker 2: issues was the loss to the community of judges because

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Speaker 2: he had been a longtime bridge builder from a very

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Speaker 2: urban community of Fulton County and a less urban communities

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Speaker 2: of our suburbs and our rural areas. Because Judge Barnes

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Speaker 2: spoke all those dialects. And you can't quantify what that

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Speaker 2: loss is because it's measured in things like, oh, because

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Speaker 2: Judge Barnes wasn't there, That judge, never met that judge

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Speaker 2: to start this great thing. That's the kind of positive

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00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: externality we are never going to experience because of this death,

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Speaker 2: and that loss is it's it's truly tragic when you

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Speaker 2: see what could have been, what spontaneity could have sparked,

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Speaker 2: and we don't ever get that. That's a theft from

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Speaker 2: the community. And it's the theft that violence brings. Violence

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Speaker 2: steals from us.

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Speaker 1: All amen, And you know, I think this case is

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Speaker 1: going to expose some mental illness, some anger management, stress

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Speaker 1: of the job, community problems, and family protection. I do.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's going to be layer upon layer,

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Speaker 1: and again everybody is going to get hurt by it.

387
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Speaker 1: Nobody in that entire community is going to win.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got a big onion. You've got a whole

389
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Speaker 2: sack ful, bluntly of issues that are going to be

390
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Speaker 2: delicate where people are going to be hurt because let's

391
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Speaker 2: again go kind of clinical, Well, what should have happened? Well,

392
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Speaker 2: what should happen when a relative of a sheriff is

393
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Speaker 2: having relations with a relative of a judge And where

394
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Speaker 2: does disclosure? Now I'm not saying something inopportune or period

395
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Speaker 2: or anything like that. No, I'm talking about the twenty

396
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Speaker 2: five year old kid of the judge dates the twenty

397
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Speaker 2: five year old kid of the sheriff. Now, big chunks

398
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Speaker 2: of that's nobody's business. Those aren't the elected people. Those

399
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Speaker 2: aren't you know, public individuals. They could do whatever they want.

400
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Speaker 2: I think that's great, but eventually there's a line where

401
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 2: it stops being great if you continue it in that spectrum.

402
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: In there, there could be future problems. Where is mandatory disclosure?

403
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Speaker 2: Where does something else need to come in to make

404
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: sure everything's on the straightened level, on the square, as

405
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: my Masons would say, Because now what we've got by

406
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: changing variables, say, the relationship which is just friendly even

407
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: is between an adult and a minor. When when does

408
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: someone have to say something? When should they say something?

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Speaker 2: And that and I know, Cheryl, you've you and I

410
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: have had this issue. The difference between shall and may

411
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Speaker 2: gets real big when you get down to personal relations

412
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Speaker 2: and exposure. That could ruin somebody's personal life and or

413
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: career because I may tell people versus I shall tell people.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, yeah, yeah, that's that's a very uncomfortable perch.

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Speaker 1: I hope everybody heard that may versus shall. But I'm

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Speaker 1: going to tell you something, Joshua Schieffer. I love you,

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Speaker 1: I adore you, I believe in you, I respect you.

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Speaker 1: But my daughter's number ain't in your phone. Yeah, and

419
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: your daughter's number certainly is not in my phone. Caroline

420
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: has at least grown your daughter's not. Now, let me

421
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: be clear, because I don't want anybody to miss unders tell.

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Speaker 2: What I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: If your daughter ever needed anything and got my number

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00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: out of your phone, call me. I will do anything

425
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 1: I can to help her. I don't need to text her.

426
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,239
Speaker 1: Call her. We ain't buddies, we aren't friends. We're not

427
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: gonna talk about movies or music, or boys or anything

428
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: else that is not a relationship I need to have.

429
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Speaker 1: I will straight up say it the other thing to me.

430
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Speaker 1: And this is what I think it's gonna come down to.

431
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: And this I think we're gonna hear over and over

432
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Speaker 1: when it comes time to trial. If all the rumors

433
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: are true and what they saw on the video is true,

434
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: if that sheriff from the judge's phone called his daughter,

435
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: it depends on how she answered.

436
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: Boy now on the head. Because you know, premeditation can

437
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: be formed in the blink of an eye. And ladies

438
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 2: and gentlemen, when we talk about premeditation, that's where we

439
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: talk about do you get a needle or do you

440
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: get bars?

441
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: And keep in mind it's around three o'clock. She would

442
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: have still been in school, so she's answering a phone

443
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: call from a judge during school hours. So if she answered,

444
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: and y'all, this is all hypothetical. But if she answered

445
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: judge melons, can I help you versus hey bee? Because

446
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: all I can tell you is right after that he

447
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: got shot multiple times.

448
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: And anyone that spends time with teenagers, the only thing

449
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: you know guaranteed is their unpredictability. That's like nailing down

450
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: a piece of yellow on the wall. You just can't

451
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: do it. You don't know where their brain is because

452
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: their brain is growing and developing. We talk about this

453
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: all the time. Where one moment they can be the

454
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: most salient and oriented and really accurate, great fire and

455
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: brain on all cylinders. The next time it's like talking

456
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: to a box of rocks. It's absolutely, as a dad myself,

457
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,959
Speaker 2: something that's frightening because you pack your kid with morals

458
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: and values and the ability to make good decisions, but

459
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: you know they don't have the ability or capacity to

460
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: make good decisions one hundred percent of the time. I

461
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: sure didn't. I did all kinds of things that I

462
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: look back now and go, well, that's that would have

463
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: killed me. Oh that was done. I looked a road

464
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: on fire in the middle of the night. We did

465
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: things in Cobb County in the nineteen eighties and nineties

466
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: that I would be run.

467
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: Oh my lord, Oh yeah, oh yeah, we would have

468
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: done time today.

469
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 2: Oh oh, I've been in the room with the people

470
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: doing the dumb and it's just like, gosh, dang, if

471
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: they'd known. And it's one of reasons that I feel

472
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: so strongly about how we punish youthful people, because it's

473
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: not worth wasting entire life over the stupidity and incongruity

474
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: of you. But when you talk about a call from

475
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: a fifteen year old, who knows what that fifteen or

476
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: sixteen or child has said and done? Who knows about

477
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: the truth there, Who knows what the dynamic is and

478
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: whether the sheriff was operating on truthful information what he

479
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: believed was truthful. Absolutely fucked. Who knows other than that

480
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: at the moment of this video, there's no question he

481
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: intended to shoot and kill the judge at that moment,

482
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: At that moment, no question.

483
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: Last question I have for you, last question before and

484
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: I'm sure we're going to come back and talk about

485
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: this more. Where in the world do you find a jury? Ah,

486
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: I mean, how far out of town do you have

487
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: to go?

488
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: The chain of venues a guinea what I really think

489
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: happens due to the gravity. And this is all contingent

490
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: on what is discovered with empirical evidence, not a bunch

491
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: of speculation, but empirical evidence. Someone is going to investigate

492
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: and expose what empirical evidence of the relationship in dynamic

493
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: existed and make the very difficult call whether this is

494
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: going to be a plea case or whether this is

495
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: going to be a death penalty case, because there aren't

496
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: pleasing death penalty unless it's a bully move to move

497
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: move them, move them off the death penalty. But that

498
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: decision when it's made, and they've already told to share

499
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: at arrayment at first or sorry not at first appearance.

500
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: This death penalty qualified crime. That's going to determine the

501
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 2: defense tactic because it becomes about saving lives versus winning cases.

502
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: There's going to be a lot of discussion over the

503
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: applicability of the death penalty because if you go pull

504
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: one hundred people in Kentucky or any other state and say,

505
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: what are the justifications for shooting and killing somebody. Inappropriate

506
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: relations with my teenage child is pretty high on that list.

507
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: And you could try the case by walking out front

508
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: with the first twelve and saying, ladies and gentlemen, we

509
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: are in Kentucky, it's twenty twenty five, and that the

510
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: victim of this case was having an inappropriate relationship with

511
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: the defendant's daughter that violated not just the laws of

512
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: this great nation, but our moral judgment in this community.

513
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 2: We are asking you to acquit him because he killed

514
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: the man who was doing that to his incompetent daughter.

515
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, and sit down.

516
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: He walks every time I kind.

517
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: Of think he does. You don't got to win twelve Cheryl, move.

518
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: You need you need let me tell you something. You

519
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: need one daddy, Yeah, you need one daddy on that journey.

520
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: And it's not politics. Oh care if you're a conservative.

521
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: I don't care if you're a man. There are a

522
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 2: couple of just hard and fast universal rules in this universe,

523
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: and touching my kids is one of them.

524
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: One hundred yep. And listen, you know I think too,

525
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: they're going to have to go back to this whole

526
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: sex abuse case with the deputy that pled guilty finally,

527
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: because they said that the judge was getting real agitated

528
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: during his deposition. He was getting more and more upset.

529
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: I don't know that something didn't come out then because

530
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: some of the allegations there was the judge's chambers was

531
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: used as a place that deputy would take people.

532
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 2: So it's the site, and we all know it's on video,

533
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 2: and so did the judge. And that's why, again it's

534
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: so hard to keep our feet in our shoes and

535
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: not jump up because there's more.

536
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: There's more, yep.

537
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 2: That case. Who knows what kind of personal exposure. So

538
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: when you're dealing with people who have notoriety and power

539
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: and influence, what's important to you is not what's necessarily

540
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 2: important to them. They understand what their exposures are, and

541
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 2: something such as a judge violating an administrative rule can

542
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 2: roll down the hill, become an absolute boulder and destroy

543
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 2: a career. And we don't know what the inside impact

544
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: of that lawsuit was. We don't know if there's an

545
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: email out there that's just a scorcher between the county

546
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 2: administrator and the judge and the sheriff's department about this that,

547
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: and we don't know if that incident exposed other things,

548
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: because let's just be honest. The best people about us,

549
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: the people that run and we love, they're not immune

550
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 2: from bad decisions. Some of our best communities have the

551
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: rot of corruption and wrongful action implanted deep within, and

552
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: it's a constant effort to keep our healthy by exposing

553
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: that rot and corruption, because really good, wonderful people do

554
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 2: fall to the sin, to the temptation of sin, whether

555
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 2: that's money, whether that's sex, whether that's power, whether that's

556
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: great and really amazing people could do some super dumb things.

557
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: I think that is the best way to leave this.

558
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: It could not be stated any better. And Joshua Schiffer,

559
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. I appreciate your friendship, your honesty, and

560
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: most of all, the way every day you get up

561
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: and go to a different courthouse to help somebody.

562
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 2: Cheryl, you know that I'm one of your biggest fans

563
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: out there, and I adore you bringing an additional depth

564
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: to this content out there. I get so frustrated at

565
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: what I see out there in the university being led

566
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 2: with just clicks and reactions instead of discussions and thoughtfulness.

567
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 2: And what the world needs is a lot more thoughtfulness.

568
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I

569
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: always do with a quote. The whole counting is just

570
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: devastated by this. We've lost not only our sheriff and

571
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: a district judge. I've lost two personal friends that I

572
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: worked with every day, circuit clerk Mike Watts. I'm Cheryl McCollum,

573
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: and this is Zone seven