1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 2: They were hurt by what happened as well, so there 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 2: was an opportunity for them to heal and for me 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: to try to begin to understand what happened to this 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 2: man that I was beginning to perceive as as a 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: good doctor who had done this horrific crime. 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 10 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold war Wicked and the co host 11 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 12 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,959 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 15 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 18 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: behind the stories. When doctor Benjamin Gilmer takes over a 19 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: small clinic in North Carolina, he's told that he is 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: actually the second doctor Gilmer to practice there, and the 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: first doctor Gilmer had murdered his own father in two 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: thousand and four. The book The Other Doctor Gilmer details 23 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: the lives of both doctor Gilmers and how their lives intersected. 24 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: Take me back to the beginning. How did you even 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: come across this story? What were your life circumstances. 26 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: This is a story that found me. I didn't look 27 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 2: for it. It's a story just back to the very 28 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: beginning that began with me starting as a fledgeling doctor 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: in my first job, really just trying to find myself 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: as a physician, and then realizing that my predecessor had 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: brutally killed his father. And then I realized that we 32 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: shared the same last name, which was a crazy way 33 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: to start my journey as a first year out transitional doctor. 34 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 1: This is rural North Carolina, which makes it even more 35 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: odd that the two of you shared a last name. 36 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: Were you both general practitioners? Is that what your role 37 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: was in this area? 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: We're both family doctors. So he started this clinic and 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 2: then I later sort of inherited it. 40 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: Is it a relatively small town, Fletcher? What was it 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: like when you were there and then when he was there. 42 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: It's a small place that's outside of Ashville, small community 43 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 2: sits in a valley. The clinic serves the people of 44 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: the valley and the hollers beyond it. It's a very 45 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: tight knit community that's made up of a lot of 46 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: different people, mostly rural, but now that Ashville is sort 47 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: of spreading into the communities around it, it's a diverse 48 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: group of people. But he was the only doctor during 49 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 2: that time, like in the valley, so he was a 50 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: big part of that community. He was really tied to 51 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: the schools like he did lots of things in the community, 52 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: and everybody was racked when this happened because they were like, 53 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: what the hell happened? 54 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: You know, let's talk about him as a doctor and 55 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: what everyone found so appealing about him. How long had 56 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: he been practicing in Fletcher before all of this sort 57 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: of fell apart in two thousand and four, for about 58 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: four years. 59 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: He was also young in his career. It was in 60 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: his fourth year that the event happened. This is the 61 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: interesting part of Vince Gilmer, or any person who's branded 62 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: as a criminal or as branded as a murderer. You 63 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: know what makes a murder, you know, And for him, 64 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 2: you can go way back to his early childhood and 65 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: see the vast amount of trauma that affected him. You know, 66 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: the bizarre things that he was starting to do like 67 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: that people didn't quite understand or you know what formed 68 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: his personality that people thought was just a little quirky. 69 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 2: But you know, for me, the process was kind of 70 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: going back retrospectively in dissecting his brain in a way 71 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: that was my previous life was a neurobiologist and I 72 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: studied psychology, So it was really interesting to go back 73 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: and just think about, what are the thousand hits took 74 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: him down, the aspects of his life that really contributed 75 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: to his mind going awry, And they're almost infinite when 76 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: you think about it, But there are five primary things 77 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: that really affected his demidse that contributed to his brain 78 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: that was beginning to come. 79 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: Apart with his childhood. He has a sister, Is that right? 80 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 2: He has one sister, So tell. 81 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: Me what happens. He's a young boy and he has 82 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: a sister, and his father is very troubled from the war. 83 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: It sounds like just from the beginning, Yeah, his. 84 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: Father was a troubled soul who had many struggles. They 85 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: moved around for work. He went to Vietnam and at 86 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 2: that point something really changed. His wife his name is Gloria, 87 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 2: as she recognized that something was very different with him, 88 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: that he was becoming a different person and didn't understand 89 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: why he would be violent at times or erratic and 90 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: impulsive and really demonstrated in a ray of emotions that 91 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: he didn't have before. And it was that time too 92 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: that like the abuse that he was exerting on the 93 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 2: family worsened, and that included Vince and his sister. So 94 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: there were moments of sexual abuse with the children as 95 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: they were growing up, and that was something that was 96 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: unfortunately a consistent threat in their lives growing up. It 97 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: was something that he's hid from Vince's mother often, but 98 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: was it really defined his childhood childhood of living with 99 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: uncertainty with his father, the childhood of experiencing sexual abuse 100 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: from their father and also physical abuse towards their mother. 101 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 2: So it was both ways. 102 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: But he seems to overcome this. Does it sound like 103 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: he's having a backlash, you know, as he gets older, 104 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: as in he's taking this out on society or he 105 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: is seemingly troubled to other people. He goes to medical 106 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: school and becomes a successful doctor. 107 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: It's remarkable. Yeah, like that this man is a survivor. 108 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 2: You know, we talk in medicine about like what defines 109 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: a person, Like why are there people who succeed and 110 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: why are there people that you know, have a life 111 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: that's committed towards you know, PTSD, anxiety, etc. And Vince 112 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: Gilmer was clearly in the former category. He was a survivor. 113 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: You know, he ran away from home when he was 114 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: seventeen years old because he felt like his life was threatened, 115 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 2: finished high school on his own, went to the military, 116 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: succeeded there, came back and miraculously got into medical school. 117 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: He was never a great student and struggled with attention deficit, 118 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: but he made it through. He survived medical school, he 119 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: survived residency, was challenged by exam taking, which was very 120 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 2: hard for him. And you know, he was a unique 121 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,679 Speaker 2: student and a unique resident. In family medicine, he would 122 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: do things that people didn't often understand, but now it's 123 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: easy to kind of understand. He was running from his past, 124 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: like his whole life, he was running from his family. 125 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 2: He was running from his father and really wanted to 126 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 2: make up I think for the behavior that he had 127 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: received from his father. And so when he was a resident, 128 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 2: he designed a project, you know, to help people who 129 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 2: were associated with sexual abuse, and committed himself to taking 130 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 2: care of children in adolescents to in his practice. So 131 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 2: he was not looking back. He was really just looking forward. 132 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: Was he speaking to his parents, because it seems clear 133 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: with what happens with his father they reconnect. Is it 134 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: happening at all as he's going through medical school or 135 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: is he completely estranged from his family? 136 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: He was mostly estranged from his father. He and his 137 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: mother maintained relations, but their relationship was at times strained too. 138 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: So he got married married another doctor, and the two 139 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: of them founded this clinic together. And it was during 140 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: those first days that his father was really really coming 141 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: off the rails and was living in the streets and 142 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: doing drugs like he was not safe to live by himself, 143 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: having delusional behavior, very promiscuous at the time. And so 144 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: he eventually got his father placed in a mental hospital 145 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: in North Carolina called Broughton Hospital, which is our big 146 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: public hospital in western with and that's where he stayed. 147 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: That's where he stayed for a couple of years. You know. 148 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: One of the ironies is the beginning of the story 149 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: for me actually started back in two thousand and five 150 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: when I was doing one of my first clinical rotations 151 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: and it was at Broughton Hospital. It was at the 152 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: psychiatric hospital, and I got to know all the patients 153 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: and I got to know this man, Donald Gilmer, Donald 154 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 2: Dalton Gilmer. Oh wow, who was at the Jerry psych Unit. 155 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: I didn't know his story, but I, you know, I 156 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: spoke to him, and you know, knew his first name, 157 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: but didn't know much about him. Didn't know much about 158 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: me other than I was a medical student. That was 159 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 2: the summer before he was killed. Oh wow. 160 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: So many intersections with this story and with your story. 161 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: What was his official diagnosis? Was it schizophrenia? 162 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: Don's diagnosis was thought to be schizophrenia. 163 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: Okay, so he's in a mental health facility. His wife, 164 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: who is Vince's mom, is are they divorced or are 165 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: they still married? 166 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 2: They were divorced at that time. 167 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: Okay. Vince has been in contact with his mother and 168 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: he's been in contact with his sister. What ends up 169 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: changing between the summer that you meet down the father 170 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: and when all of this happens. 171 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: What changed is that Vince's life started becoming more difficult, 172 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: and then the summer of that next year, he was 173 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: driving to take his medical boards and he had a 174 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: profound anxiety around test taking, and while driving to his boards, 175 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: he had an accident in his truck and his truck 176 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: flipped over hit a telephone pole. He was taken to 177 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 2: the hospital. He was a trauma patient. He was unconscious, 178 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: didn't know his own name at that time. And it 179 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: was after that summer that he started doing more poorly. 180 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 2: Getting through clinic was more difficult. He would have to 181 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: run next door during lunch to load up on caffeine 182 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 2: and chocolate just to make it through the afternoons. He 183 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: and his wife struggled more in their relationship, and it 184 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: was that winter that he and his wife decided to separate, 185 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: and throughout the spring, he found it more difficult to 186 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: run the practice by himself, to stay organized, to stay 187 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 2: well groomed. He was just like really struggling in his 188 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: life at that point. And it was the summer that 189 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 2: following summer in June that he drove to the mental 190 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: hospital to retrieve his dad, and he wanted to bring 191 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: his dad back to Ashville so that he could be 192 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 2: closer to him and have, you know, keep an eye 193 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 2: on him just down the street. There was an assisted 194 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 2: living facility, so he was going to watch him work 195 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: closely there. 196 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: There are a couple of things that I need to 197 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: untangle first, So before we talk about why and the 198 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: hell that would ever happen, why would you go retrieve 199 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: a man who systematically abused you for a very long time. 200 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: Is Vince at this point also diagnosed with schizophrenia? Is 201 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: that what we're getting to is that there is a 202 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: similar diagnosis with the son as there was with the father. 203 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: Now, people thought Vince was just having midlife crisis. He 204 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: wasn't having symptoms of schizophrenia. And you know, I've always wondered, 205 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: like why did he go get his father? Being around 206 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: his father was the most stressful part of his life, 207 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: and he had done a good job like sort of 208 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: evaiding him over the several years. But it really speaks 209 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 2: to who he is as a person. The key despite 210 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: all the trauma, despite the stress and the tension, he 211 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: still wanted to care for his father. It was a 212 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: remarkable decision in my mind that he actively went to 213 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: pick him up. His intention was to bring him home. 214 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: He had made a contact with the assistant living facility there. 215 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 2: Everyone who was expecting them to arrive at six o'clock 216 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: that evening. He had a bed that was waiting for him, 217 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: the nurses were waiting for him. Everything was planned and 218 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: ready to go. But that's not what happened. 219 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: Do we have a sense for what did happen from 220 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: the time that he picked him up at the facility 221 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: to the time he was supposed to go to the 222 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: assisted living facility. Did doctor Gilmer before he was arrested 223 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: or during trial or any of this, did he say 224 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: what the conversation was like that might have triggered this. 225 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 2: He writes about it very clearly. But what happened was 226 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 2: he en route back home, he wanted to give his 227 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 2: his dad a little outdoor outing, so he wanted to 228 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: take him to a lake that he could experience before 229 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: moving into this permanent assisted living facility. And during that 230 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: time he kept hearing voices in his head. And for 231 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: days leading up to this, he recognized that he was 232 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: hearing voices, voices that he couldn't control. And this was 233 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: also during a time that he stopped so precipitously stopped 234 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: his antidepressant, his SSRI. A lot of people have problems 235 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 2: when they stopped their SSRIs, and so he was realizing 236 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: that he couldn't stop these voices, and then his father 237 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: was there. They drove to in Arby's. His father started 238 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: humming a song that he used to hum when he 239 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 2: was a child, and this was an indication to him 240 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: that his father was going to had sexual abuse interest. 241 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: And that's what happened that day, and so he tried 242 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: to resist his father. Of course, he was stronger than 243 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: his father, and his father kept pushing it, according to him, 244 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: and at that point he couldn't resist the voices any 245 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 2: longer that we're telling him to kill his father. So 246 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: in that moment, he was purely delusional and did not 247 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: have control over his external voices. 248 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: Is doctor Gilmore saying that he believed that this was 249 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: going to happen, that his father was indicating that he 250 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 1: wanted to sexually abuse him as an adult at this lake. 251 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: Well, well, I know what Vince indicated, and that's his 252 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: father tried to aggress him. Wow that night. 253 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there at the lake and he has these 254 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: voices in his head and he acts, so he strangles 255 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: his father. Is that right? 256 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: That's correct? 257 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: And what is his thinking after this, because he does 258 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: some planning that is a little surprising. And I'm sure 259 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: this is what made reporting for you complicated, is you've 260 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: got someone who clearly has a mental illness, but who 261 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: also is clearly thinking of a way to cover up 262 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: what he just did. 263 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: You know, this is like part of any any of 264 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 2: these stories, right, like we want to know, like what 265 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: did happen in the moment? And you know, I don't 266 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: think Vince really knew what was happening in the moment, 267 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 2: like everything turned dark for him. He was resorting to 268 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: these sort of instincts of what to do. And you know, 269 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: I don't think the cover up was something that it 270 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: was certainly not an intentional process. I think it was 271 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: something he was just doing, just trying to react in 272 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: the moment. And it's easy to imagine in that moment 273 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 2: that he was completely disassociated, that he as most children 274 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: or people of abuse who when they are being abused, 275 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 2: they disassociated as a primal like defense mechanism. I think 276 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: that was happening for him too, And I think he 277 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: probably freaked out and was like, oh my gosh, what happened? 278 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 2: Who am I? What happened? And then you know, trying 279 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: to cover it up. But it clearly wasn't very well 280 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: thought through plan because he just put the body on 281 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: the side of the road and drove back home. He 282 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: didn't try to hide the body per se. He just 283 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: drove back home. 284 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: But he did cut off his fingertips. Is that what happened? 285 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: That is true? Well yeah, but he also left the 286 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: tag on its clothes that had its name and ID 287 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 2: number from in hospital. So yeah, a thinking person wouldn't 288 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: have done the act that way. Like that was an 289 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: act of desperation, an active delusion, and an active utter frustration. 290 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: And you know, it was also the culmination of his 291 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: whole life, Like his whole life had culminated in this 292 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 2: moment where he had escaped his past in large part 293 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: and then it all came back crashing upon him. In 294 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: that moment. 295 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: He has bloody rags also in his vehicle. I mean, 296 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: you're right, he's not doing a great job at a 297 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: cover up. It sounds like this is the one thing 298 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: that he thought of in his head that maybe could 299 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: help at that point, and the rest it was just panic, Yes, 300 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: I think. So what is the series of events that 301 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: happens after that? Someone obviously finds Don Gilmer on the 302 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: side of the road at some point. 303 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 2: So he was quickly found after this tragic event happened, 304 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: Like within minutes he was found. Somebody drove by and 305 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: spoted the body, and then you know, I think Vents 306 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 2: even like passed the police as he was driving out. 307 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: And so Vince came home and tried to clean himself 308 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 2: up and then went and saw patients for the next 309 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: three days in clinic as if nothing had ever happened. 310 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: I mean, this was a confusing part for a lot 311 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: of people to understand. It was confusing for the sheriff 312 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: and the judge and the jury, and for me to reconcile. 313 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: How could this have happened? How could a man have 314 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: committed this tragic killing and then gone to see patients 315 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 2: without them realizing that anything had happened. What does it 316 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: take to pull that off? And did he pull it 317 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: off because he really didn't know what happened, like he 318 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: had completely dissociated from it. Yeah, Or was it like 319 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: the final act of him trying to save himself after 320 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: practicing for a whole lifetime, trying to save himself from 321 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: his parents? You know, I guess it must have been 322 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 2: a really complex time for him during those first hours 323 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: of days after this happened, and then eventually the detective 324 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: caught up with him pretty quickly and was convinced that 325 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: the events was responsible. 326 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: Would the psychiatrist who evaluated vents say, this is a 327 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: hallmark of what he's suffering from with schizophrenia, where he 328 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: is able to disassociate himself, and it does not mean 329 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: that this was done even particularly out of malice. This 330 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: was just a part of what he was feeling based 331 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: on what happened to him as a child, and something 332 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: that his dad did clearly triggered it. Whether it was 333 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: attempted sexual assault or the song or just something being 334 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: in the same presence with him. 335 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 2: The aggression that is directed towards him was I think 336 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 2: the trigger, you know, when you think about I mean, 337 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: we see patients, their threshold for buffering stress anxiety is 338 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: so so narrow, whether it be you know, their perpetual 339 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: state of PTSD or generalized anxiety. You know, for events 340 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 2: like he had just also had a traumatic brain injury 341 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: that can trigger a lot of people. You know, it's 342 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 2: very common for people to have emotional libility to be 343 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: easily triggered, irritable, agitated following a traumatic brain injury that 344 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: happened just a few months before this happened and. 345 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: The divorce he was relatively newly separated and divorced from 346 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: his wife Truemic. 347 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: The abrupt cessation of his medications was traumatic. We see 348 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: people all the time who have symptoms of withdrawal after 349 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 2: stopping SSRI. It's more commonplace than people realize, and we 350 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 2: see profound symptoms just from that. You know that on 351 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: top of history of PTSD, but also on top of 352 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: what we were beginning to see as another bizarre neurologic 353 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 2: process that later became clear and that no one knew 354 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: about at the time of the trial. When he showed 355 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: up for trial, he had these sort of bizarre symptoms. 356 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: Like he was it was difficult for him to put 357 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: words together. His posture and his gesticulations and his fingers 358 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: just like these sort of shaking movements that he had 359 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: was a little bit bizarre. They were triggered by the 360 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 2: police being close to him, triggered by his lawyer. They like, 361 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: they were easily triggered during that time, so much so 362 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: that he fired his lawyers. And what would be the 363 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 2: kind of craziest thing for someone to do for their 364 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: own murder trial, Who would be to fire your lawyer 365 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: and actually believe that you could do a better job, 366 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 2: and he did believe that he could do a better 367 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 2: job than his lawyer. People thought that in mostly this 368 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 2: was dictated by the actions of a forensic psychologist who 369 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: bought the diagnosis that Vince was a malingerer. 370 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: Now, what is that? Can you explain that malingering? 371 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, malingering is simply that you're baking symptoms, okay, symptomology 372 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: for secondary gain. And so people thought that like he was, 373 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 2: he was playing crazy. He was like smart enough to 374 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: do so because he knew the symptoms as a doctor 375 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 2: and that he could pull it off, okay, with his history. 376 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: So this first forensic psychologist says, he's faking it. Obviously 377 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: this is cold blood and murder. Did anyone did detectives 378 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: or did the attorneys? Did his former defense attorneys bring 379 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: people to the stand at some point to say this 380 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: is what happened with his father, this is his family history, 381 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: this is his own erratic behavior that points to a 382 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: mental illness. 383 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 2: None of it came up. 384 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: What do you think the reason is, Well, the reason. 385 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 2: Is because he fired his lawyer, Yeah, and was representing 386 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 2: himself and was incapable of highlighting. Oh you know as 387 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: a clinician, in particular highlighting, Oh, maybe I had a 388 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 2: traumatic brain injury from the crash. Maybe I have underlying 389 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: mental illness because of my lifelong history of trauma. None 390 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: of that was clearly brought up, and he didn't have 391 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: a witness on his behalf. His witness was to be 392 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: his sister, who was to corroborate the lifelong history of abuse. 393 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 2: But his sister never made it. She never made it 394 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 2: to trial, and it was later believed that she was 395 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 2: actually murdered herself during the trial, and she has never been. 396 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,479 Speaker 1: Seen again by who who would have done that? 397 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 2: His mother thinks that she knows who did it. It 398 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 2: was a domestic abuse issue. 399 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: So not related to the case. This is just a 400 00:20:48,680 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: really terrible coincidence. I wonder even if this came out 401 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: and was presented that he had been sexually abused by 402 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: his father when he was younger, do you think that 403 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: would have made any kind of a difference in the trial. 404 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 2: Well, I think if it had been corroborated, it certainly 405 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 2: would have been part of the equation. But because they 406 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 2: believed that he was cold blooded, they believed that he 407 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: was a malingerer, and so they didn't believe it. I 408 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: don't think the jury or the judge believed it. And 409 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 2: in the end, the judge condemned him as a cold 410 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: blooded murderer and offered the worst punishment that he could 411 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 2: for the Commonwealth of Virginia in that moment, which was 412 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: life without parole. He wasn't being tried for a capital crime. 413 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: You know, the witnesses that he called to the stand, 414 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: or people like his mother, his previous girlfriend who was 415 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 2: traumatized by this whole thing. So he really didn't have 416 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: a credible professional source to say he even asked the 417 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: right questions. 418 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: Now, in other trials, when a defendant says I want 419 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: to find everybody and I don't need representation, I have 420 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,239 Speaker 1: often read that the judge will still assign them a 421 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: defense attorney for reference, because otherwise it leaves them wide 422 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: open for a fantastic appeal. Did that not happen? He 423 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: didn't even have somebody sitting there with legal expertise in 424 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: case he needed something. 425 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 2: You he did the lawyer there he fired. The judge 426 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 2: did ask him to sit in the courtroom, okay, but 427 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 2: he wasn't very helpful. 428 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: So he is found guilty and he has been sentenced 429 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: to life and he begins serving his sentence. Do you 430 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: have an idea of what life was like for him 431 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: or has been in a penitentiary. I mean, this must 432 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: just be incredible. I'm sure there are a lot of 433 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: details about the lack of treatment that he's had for 434 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: his mental illness, so. 435 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 2: That you know, this was like the big discovery for 436 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 2: me because when I started becoming curious about him, and 437 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: eventually when I went to visit him in person, which 438 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: was something I felt like I had to do. I 439 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 2: had to see him. My life was becoming complicated and 440 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 2: full of paranoi at times, and a patient told me 441 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 2: that the defense was getting out and that of course 442 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 2: he would come find me like that I would be 443 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: like a potential victim for him. And you know, I 444 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 2: didn't really take that so seriously, but it started making 445 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: me think about, gosh, what you know, I inherited his life, 446 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 2: like I took his practice. I took the joy that 447 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: he had as a physician. I was continuing in the 448 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 2: life that he had dreamed about his whole life, and 449 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 2: so you know, it made sense that if he got out, 450 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 2: he would you know, I didn't know what he would do, 451 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 2: but I decided that I needed to know. I needed 452 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: to visit him, and I also wanted to tell him 453 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: that his patients loved him. He was still revered even 454 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: after all these years, he was still revered as their 455 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: good doctor. And I felt compelled to tell him. And 456 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: I also started feeling a great a connection with him 457 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 2: from the stories of his patients and wanted to know 458 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: the truth. And so Sarahcane of this American life, the 459 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: two of us went to the prison to visit him, 460 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: which is prison called Wallace Ridge, which is a supermax 461 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 2: prison in Virginia. And that was the first prison I'd 462 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 2: ever witnessed. It was the first time had set foot 463 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 2: in the prison. So it was a big trigger, you know, 464 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: for me to see what the inside of a prison 465 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 2: looks like and to begin hearing stories from vents which 466 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: were horrific. At that point, he you know, he was 467 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 2: like emaciated. He was only fifty years old at that point, 468 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 2: but he looked like he was maybe seventy. He didn't 469 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: have any teeth because they had all been beaten out 470 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 2: of his head. He had spent countless weeks months in 471 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 2: solitary confinement at that point, no treatment. I'm assuming, well, 472 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 2: no treatment. I mean they this was like ten years 473 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 2: into his incarceration, and they still believed that he was 474 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: faking these symptoms. And the symptoms at this point were 475 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 2: he was like shuffling to walk, he had these uncontrollable 476 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 2: movements in his hands, and so people just kind of 477 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: wrote it off like he's still faking, or maybe he's 478 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 2: depressed and anxious. But he wasn't being treated with anything. 479 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 2: He wasn't being treated with therapy, he wasn't being treated 480 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,479 Speaker 2: with medications. It was an animal trying to survive in prison. 481 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: And that was what I saw for the very first time, 482 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 2: and it was striking. I mean, it was traumatizing to 483 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 2: witness that. 484 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: What is Sarah's role? Did you all produce an episode 485 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: of this American life for this case? 486 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 2: Yeah? So Sarah and I worked together for six months. 487 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 2: At some point I realized that I needed some guardrails 488 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 2: and some mentoring to try to dig into what happened 489 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 2: to him. So I got connected with Sarah and we 490 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: did the deep dive together, and she gave me an 491 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: introduction to journalism and really helped push the process much 492 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 2: faster than that I would have ever done on my own. 493 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: Like we blazed through six months of investigation that would 494 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 2: have taken me years to do probably, So that was 495 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: her role. And then we put together a piece for 496 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 2: this American life called Doctor Gilmer and mister Hyde. 497 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: What is the takeaway? Do you think from the majority 498 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: of listeners to that episode and people who read your 499 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: book that there is just a tragedy with mental illness 500 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: and in the criminal justice system and the intersection between 501 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: the two, that we are just failing people who were 502 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: in prison for very very complex issues. 503 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: Well, the takeaway for me was was defined by a 504 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 2: later event. After seeing him for the first time, I 505 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: realized like there's something wrong with him, either deeply psychiatric 506 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: or neurologic process. And so I went back and dragged 507 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: a psychiatrist kind of bandido into the prison so he 508 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: could observe him with me. And it was clear watching 509 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 2: him that he had a neurologic process. So as we 510 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: exited the prison, the other doctor, doctor Bowie, brought up 511 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: and said it possibly as Huntington's disease. Walk into the car. 512 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: We put the diagnosis together and then you know, check, check, check. 513 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: All these things they all lined up with Huntington's disease, 514 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 2: which is a rare genetic disorder. So for me, like, 515 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: you know, what is the story about, Like the story was, 516 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 2: you know, how do you get a man out of prison? 517 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: And the first step was making the official diagnosis, which 518 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 2: meant finding an ally in prison who later became the 519 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 2: psychiatrist in a different prison. Because Vince threatened to kill 520 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: himself in the week after after I saw him, they 521 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: moved him to a different prison and there was an 522 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 2: amazing psychiatrist there named doctor Colin Angelicer who was able 523 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 2: to peer through all of these previous biases that had 524 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: been made about Bence Gilmer and it was like, that's bullshit, 525 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 2: and started seeing him as you know, as a tabula 526 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 2: raza and trying to look at him for who he 527 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 2: was and making sense of his history, and together we 528 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: were able to get the genetic testing which confirmed that 529 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: he had Huntington's disease. And then Sarah left me to 530 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 2: continue with her life because she was starting the serial 531 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 2: podcast at that point. She discovered the Anon case through 532 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 2: one of the lawyers that we were working with, so 533 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: the serial podcast was actually born from Provitz's case, and 534 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 2: she asked me, what what are you going to do now? 535 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 2: And so that was also kind of what the book 536 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: is about, Like what am I supposed to do? We 537 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: have this terminally ill, mentally ill, neurologically ill patient who's 538 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: in prison now, who never should have stepped one foot 539 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: in prison. Yet the diagnosis had been made before, including 540 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: the abuse, including the TBI, including the Huntingdon's disease, it 541 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: would have been clear that he needed to be in 542 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 2: a mental hospital. And so then of course I jumped 543 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 2: into becoming a student of law, trying to figure out, well, 544 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 2: what what does it take? You know, is this a 545 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 2: habeas corpus problem? Is this a clemency problem? Trying to 546 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: put together a legal team that would would come together 547 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: for free with me to help save this man. Thereafter 548 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: was the next ten years, still leading up to today, 549 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 2: like trying to liberate him, learning about the politics of Virginia. 550 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 2: How do you grant clemency for someone who's committed murder? 551 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: And being disappointed at every turn, learning that the process 552 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: is like almost impossible, like to get someone out of prison, 553 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: even when the stars are lining up. Because now Vince, 554 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 2: you know, had millions of people who listened to the story. 555 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 2: We had all the pr that we needed. We had 556 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: Ira Glass advocating for us. We had teams of people 557 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: who were lining up. We had lawyers coming out of 558 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: the woodworks who wanted to help support our case, and 559 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: we eventually had a formidable team with help from the 560 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: Innocence Project of Virginia to help work on this case. 561 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: So we did, and then we had rejection after rejection. 562 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 2: We had clemency rejection by the next two governors. 563 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: Based on what grounds though, I mean, what was the 564 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: reason given. 565 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: They don't give you a reason. Our assumption or you know, 566 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: through the grapevine, was that he wasn't sick enough, that 567 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 2: he wasn't sick enough to be released. I mean, even 568 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,239 Speaker 2: after this American life story came out, there were a 569 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: series of people, including the judge who inspired the release 570 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 2: of the psychiatrists who represent events who took care events 571 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: in prison. That psychiatrist was eventually let go after a 572 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: forty you know, plus year career in forensic psychology. This 573 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: was what we were fighting. We were fighting also a 574 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 2: governor who was being indicted himself. We were fighting against 575 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: another governor who wanted to be president of the United States, 576 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 2: and so you know, we were learning that being granted. See, 577 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: it's not about it's not a clinical decision. It's not 578 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: always a humanistic decision. It's oftentimes grounded in politics. 579 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: So what ultimately ends up happening with Vince Gilmer. 580 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 2: So, well, ultimately I become so disillusioned and angered by 581 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 2: this process that I thought would take us weeks to 582 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: get him out of prison. And after the first rejection, 583 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: that's when I decided, well, I'm going to write this story. 584 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to tell this in a book in a 585 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 2: way that a lot of people can understand, Like, what 586 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 2: actually did happen to him? Like? What are all the 587 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: insults that contribute to someone's mental capacity to be compromised? 588 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: And I wanted people to see that. I wanted people 589 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: to see events for the good person he was, and 590 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: not this one horrific event that happened in his life. 591 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 2: Like I wanted the whole story to be born out. 592 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: I wanted people to see the politics of it. I 593 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 2: wanted people to realize that rehabilitation doesn't take place in prison. 594 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I wanted people to understand, like, this isn't 595 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: a problem that's just defined by a bad trial or 596 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 2: you know, dirty politics, Like this is a problem that's 597 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 2: defined by overall the lack of mental health resources in 598 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: our country, And as a primary care doctor, I see 599 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: this every day, trying to get someone into one of 600 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 2: our mental health facilities. So playing the lottery, you know, 601 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: realizing that, you know, the scarcity of psychiatrists in our country, 602 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: especially in reural places, is tremendous. I wanted people to 603 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: see that. I wanted people to understand that humans are 604 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 2: all vulnerable. 605 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: Is doctor Gilmer still in the penitentiary or has anything 606 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: happened with politics? 607 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: Now? 608 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: There's a new governor writing in Virginia, relatively new in Virginia. 609 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: So the Governor northumb rejected our clemency petition. This was 610 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 2: eighteen months ago, and I was furiously writing, writing, writing, 611 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: The publication of the book wasn't going to come out 612 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: until after the governor's term. But Valentine Penguin ran the 613 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: mouse enabled me to get some pre release copies that 614 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: I flooded the office with. And you know, we were 615 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 2: at this point grasping for every string to get pulled, 616 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: trying to build relationships within the governor's circle. And you know, 617 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: I have no idea what pushed it across the line. 618 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: You know, I know there were people that read this story, 619 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: read Vince's story, in my book. But on his last 620 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: day in office, he reversed his clency rejection decision, which 621 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 2: is kind of unprecedented. So I thought at that point, 622 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 2: oh wow, we were rejoicing. We did it. You know, 623 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 2: we spent ten years working on this, and now he 624 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,719 Speaker 2: was going to finally find a hospital, which was the 625 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 2: only thing we were asking for the entire time was 626 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 2: just to get him to a hospital. We weren't asking 627 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 2: for freedom, complete freedom. We were asking for a hospital. 628 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: And this next act of the story is like, oh 629 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 2: my god, it has been impossible to get him into 630 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: a hospital. Virginia has closed their doors to him universally. 631 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 2: We received no support from the Department of Mental Health 632 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 2: nor the Department of Corrections to get him to a hospital. 633 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 2: And the tragedy is that there's a mental hospital that 634 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 2: shares the parking lot with the prison where he's at. 635 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 2: You can literally throw a stone from the front porch 636 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 2: of the prison into the mental health center. They wouldn't 637 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: help negotiate us getting him there, which I saw is 638 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: absolutely inhumane. 639 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: But he has clemency. I mean, can't you just go 640 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: what happens now? 641 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: Clemency is you have to play by the rules of 642 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 2: the clemency is determined by the governor. In this clemency 643 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: which like he sorted out and literally the last hours 644 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: of his governorship. It wasn't very detailed or clear, but 645 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: it's simply stated that Vince was responsible to get himself 646 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 2: into a hospital, which is impossible. You can't do that 647 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: without internal help from the Department of Mental Health. So 648 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 2: we've been looking for places in North Carolina to get 649 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 2: him into as a transitional place to eventually get him 650 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 2: to a place actually brought in hospital where he was, 651 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: where his father was, it would be a place that 652 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 2: would be ideal to take care of his needs. We've 653 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 2: been rejected by five different private hospitals, and many of 654 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 2: whom maybe don't have the resources to take We have 655 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: a patient like Bence, but he's been surviving in prison 656 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: basically alone, just fine, Like any place will be better 657 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: than prison. But there you know, a lot of hospitals 658 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 2: don't want any risk of negative pr or they don't 659 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 2: want any risk of having a quote unquote dangerous patient 660 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: on their wards, and so that's made it an uphill 661 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 2: battle to get him out. So we did a fundraiser 662 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 2: and raised one hundred thousand dollars a month or two go, 663 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 2: and we're trying to use that money to help leverage 664 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: opening the doors, which it's been very helpful because the 665 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 2: Attorney General wants to know that we have money to 666 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 2: be able to pay for a hospital. They want to 667 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 2: have assurance that he will actually make it in. And 668 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 2: so thanks to Quentin Quarantino and others, Trudy Styler and 669 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 2: Sting like, you know, some people really contributed to Bence's cause. 670 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,439 Speaker 2: That has enabled us to be able to have other conversations. 671 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: So we were just rejected by another hospital this week, 672 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: and I think we have another option that I can't 673 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: speak of yet that's coming up, but fingers crossed that 674 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 2: in the next few weeks we're gonna have him out. 675 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: But he's he's the only clemency granted person I can 676 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 2: only imagine who has spent more than a year in 677 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: prison still after his clemency freedom, and he still continues 678 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 2: to be put in solitary confinement. 679 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 1: From time to time because of behavior. 680 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 2: Because of they don't understand him, like they don't understand 681 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 2: why he can sometimes like blurt out things that maybe inappropriate. 682 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 2: But he's a man who's struggling for his life with 683 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 2: mental illness. Who's you know, what's the worst thing you 684 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 2: could do to a patient like that is put them 685 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 2: in solitaire confinement? 686 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: Does he understand what's happening? Does he understand what you've 687 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: done over the past decade and Sarah and all of 688 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: these advocates and the Innocence Project, and does he comprehend 689 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: any of that based on what you know? 690 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 2: He comprehends all of it. I saw him two weeks 691 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 2: ago in the prison. The warden graciously let me into 692 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 2: to see him. You know, all prisoners you probably know 693 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 2: have been essentially in soult or confinement throughout COVID because 694 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 2: they haven't allowed visitors. So this was the first time 695 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 2: for me to see him since the beginning of COVID, 696 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 2: and he just inspires me. He holds on to like this, 697 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 2: this optimism of getting out. He still has this optimism 698 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 2: of being able to give back in some way to students, 699 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 2: to teach them about Huntington's. Huntington's which of course did 700 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 2: not like make him kill his father. Huntington's is not, 701 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 2: I want to be clear, it's not a killer disease. 702 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 2: He was compromised by all these other things too. But yeah, 703 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,919 Speaker 2: he's so grateful and humble and can't wait to get out. 704 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 2: But you know, I feel guilty. I feel extremely guilty 705 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 2: because I haven't gotten him out. It's taken over a 706 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 2: year and we've had these failures, and I keep telling him, 707 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 2: one more week, one more a month, it's going to 708 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 2: happen for Thanksgiving, It's going to happen at Christmas. Oh 709 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 2: that's it's going to happen in New Years. Like, you know, 710 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: like it's hard for him to even believe what I 711 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 2: tell him. More and each of these junctures, like we've 712 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: had like great confidence that he was going to get 713 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 2: at Thanksgiving. 714 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to not give him hope when he's 715 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: struggling so much. But boy, that hurts when it doesn't 716 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: work out. It hurts both of you. 717 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well it sort of contributes to the kind 718 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 2: of learned helplessness. I think that all incarcerated people experienced 719 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 2: at some point when they no longer have hope, they 720 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 2: no longer have anything to dream about. And you know, 721 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: it's like just another failure for him, like one more 722 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: failure after failure, And of course he's wondering, what, why 723 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 2: don't these hospitals want to take me? Like what I 724 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 2: don't understand that I'm a doctor who's committed myself to service. 725 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 2: This thing happened. I'm cleared, I'm clemency granted, why would 726 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 2: these hospitals not want to take me? So, you know, 727 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 2: trying to explain that kind of thing to him is 728 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 2: so hard. 729 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: Also, Yeah, I think it's remarkable your story that you 730 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: come to this town. You're a young doctor, you hear 731 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: this story and it has very clearly affected you changed 732 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: your whole life, sort of a career change trajectory, you 733 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: become an author. To me, it really just shows it's 734 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: an illustration of how one person, one event, one crime, 735 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: can shift the lives of so many people. It's remarkable. 736 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 2: Well, it's true. You know when you look at how 737 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 2: illness affects a family too, where you look at how 738 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 2: one incarcerated person in a family that may have been 739 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 2: a result of, you know, one episode of methom betaine 740 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 2: use that led to a tragic event. You know that 741 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 2: that affects everybody. It affects the person, the family, It 742 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 2: trickles down, you know, throughout the community. Even Yeah, so Vince, 743 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 2: the story is that like his family has been, it's 744 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 2: just had a series of tragedies, you know, for that began, 745 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 2: you know, from his great grandfather and his grandfather who 746 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 2: also had hunting tents, because if you have Huntington's, then 747 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 2: you have a fifty to fifty chance of getting it yourself. 748 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 2: And so it's it's been this endless cycle of abuse 749 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,280 Speaker 2: and trauma that that's contributed, you know, ultimately to the fence. 750 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: He's lucky to have you. 751 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 2: Well, what am I supposed to do? I mean, this 752 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 2: is what we're supposed to do as doctors, is to advocate, 753 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: you know, we think of family medicine in one of 754 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 2: our four days as advocacy. And I mean obviously, like 755 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 2: what does it take for me to understand that the 756 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 2: stars like aligned for me to be in this place. 757 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 2: I'm not a super religious guy, but it feels like 758 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 2: that this was supposed to happen and that was put 759 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 2: in his path. 760 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 761 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 762 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,720 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 763 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: white production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate 764 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: producer is Alex Chi. This episode was mixed by John 765 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: Bradley Curtis Heath is our composer. Our work by Nick Toga, 766 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. 767 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 768 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you 769 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention 770 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 771 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions 772 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,720 Speaker 1: for true crime authors for Wicked Words