1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: I didn't need to know how my Voiceober girls are 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: doing because me I long for intimate touch and it's 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: been difficult. It's been worth it, but it's not been easy, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 1: and it's been filled with boilapses. That was me in 5 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, in the middle of my Voiceover year. 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: My next guest has also been touched starved, though for 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: different reasons than I was, And this week we hear 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: how she took matters into her own hands and got 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: what she wanted. I'm Hopewitdard and welcome to Voiceover, a 10 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: space where we're learning and unlearning. All the myths were 11 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: taught about love and relationships. Glennis McNichol was living alone 12 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: in New York City when the pandemic hit, and after 13 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: about a year and a half without close human interaction, 14 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: she knew what she wanted. She wanted to touch, she 15 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: wanted to interact the second she could. She flew to 16 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: Paris to have the most pleasurable summer possible, which included 17 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: friendship and she's and of course having sex. In her 18 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: book I'm Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself, which came out 19 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: last year, she wrote all about this. It's about Glynnis's 20 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: summer of following her intuition to get what she needed. 21 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: But more largely, it's about the way seeking pure enjoyment 22 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: as a woman can feel like a radical act these days. 23 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: She talked to me about all of this and what 24 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: she's been thinking about since, how her desires have shifted, 25 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: and why it's important to be in touch with your 26 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: desire in the first place. Glennis, welcome to boy Sover. 27 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 28 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: And Emily, our producer, brought you up because she was 29 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: telling us about your time in Paris, right, can you 30 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: tell me about it? 31 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 3: I stayed in New York during COVID. I was alone 32 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 3: in my top flour studio apartment on the Upper West 33 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 3: Side for like a year and whatever it was, we 34 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 3: were all in lockdown, like a year, a year. 35 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: And a half. 36 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 3: It was a very long time of like seeing people 37 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 3: I loved but at a distance and sort of an absence, 38 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 3: not sort of an absence of touch, an absence of touch. 39 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: And did you ever think about leaving? Like I know 40 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: some New Yorkers were like I'm gonna go to the 41 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: Hamptons and I'm gonna get a house in the suburbs, 42 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: like you were like. 43 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: I'm staying no, I never leave New York. 44 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 3: It was such a unique moment, but also I think 45 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 3: we all got the most extreme version of our life 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: choices in that moment. And you know, friends who are 47 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 3: partnered or who have children were like, I did not 48 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 3: sign up to be this partnered, and I did not 49 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 3: sign up to be this much of a parent. And 50 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 3: I was like, I did not sign up to not 51 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 3: be touched by another human being for sixteen months or 52 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 3: whatever however long it ended up being. 53 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: I love how in your book you said not even smelled. 54 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 3: Not even smelled, not even smelled like I was like, 55 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: do I exist? And also my building everyone left, so 56 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 3: it was like me, the woman down the hall, the mice, 57 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 3: the dorman, the exterminator. 58 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, what did that loneliness feel like at first? Or 59 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: maybe a loneeness. 60 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: It wasn't loneliness at first. It was so extreme for 61 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: all of us. There was a shock to that, and 62 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 3: then the novelty of having New York so empty and 63 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 3: being able because I ride my bike everywhere. I was like, 64 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 3: I can make it from seventy second Street to Union 65 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 3: Square in seven minutes. 66 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: That's amazing. 67 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was incado, and I'm sure exactly free. So 68 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 3: at the end of that I had spent summers in 69 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 3: Paris previous and I missed my friends there. And when 70 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: vaccines rolled in in the spring of twenty twenty one, 71 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: I emailed the person that I normally rented the apartment 72 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 3: from and I said, I don't know, should we think 73 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 3: about doing this because they liked to come back to 74 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 3: New York for a month and they had an apartment 75 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 3: in Brooklyn they owned, and I would take their apartment 76 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 3: in Paris for very little money in the grand scheme 77 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 3: of things, So it was just to have a friend. 78 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, it was a great, great setup. 79 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 3: By the end of July, the Delta virus started rolling 80 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 3: in and I thought, I'm just going. I cannot be 81 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 3: alone and in this one place any longer totally. So 82 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 3: I was just like, I'm going. 83 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: What was like your intention of going. 84 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 3: I don't know that I was thinking that far ahead. 85 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 3: I wanted to just go, and I thought, I have 86 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 3: the apartment, I know people in Paris. I might get 87 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 3: caught there. I'm just I'll deal with it when it happens. 88 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 3: So I landed and I thought, okay, I'm here in Paris. 89 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 3: Prioritizes pleasure in a way that I think very few 90 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 3: other places. 91 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: Do say more about that. I just want to hear 92 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: more about it. 93 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, I really think the French they think of sort 94 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 3: of rest and pleasure as a human right, and in 95 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 3: America we think of it as something you have to earn, 96 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 3: like we really think about vacation as something like as 97 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: a reward for your hard work. And there it just is, 98 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 3: they're two separate things. It is very much like everyone 99 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 3: gets the month off in August and everyone you know, 100 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 3: your day stops at a certain time. The cheese, of course, 101 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 3: the cheese is good, of course, Like so it's sort 102 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 3: of just as part of. 103 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: The identity and part of the language. 104 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 3: You can even see it in the language, like there's 105 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 3: no way to send a short email in French. You 106 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: could in America you'd be like, i'll be back in 107 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: five And in French trying to say that is like 108 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 3: seven sons, right, there's. 109 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 2: No way to be thinking about going out. 110 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 3: I was thinking about you. I mean, it's very much 111 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 3: in the way it offerates. So I landed, My friends 112 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: were there, and immediately it was nice to be in 113 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 3: community with people who live similar lives in me. And 114 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 3: then it was nice to be sitting outside in cafes 115 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 3: and having cheese and having bread and having wine, indulging, indulging. Yeah. 116 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: And then I got on the apps in Paris and 117 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 3: I was like, I'm just gonna just see and then 118 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: maybe I'll go out on one date. And then actually 119 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 3: the first person I ended up connecting. 120 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: With connecting was not off an app. I think I 121 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: sometimes thing is kissing, connecting is dating. 122 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 3: Oh new to nudity, connecting It is like full yeah, no, no, no, 123 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 3: closer off yeah all everyone take it? 124 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: Okay. 125 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 3: That is another title for the book Everyone's Naked. My 126 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: argument sometimes for the apps is not that you're going 127 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: to meet someone on there necessarily, but sometimes I think 128 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: it puts you in a mindset of thinking about opportunity 129 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 3: and like interacting with people with a sense of potential, 130 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 3: whether that potential for romance or love or sex or 131 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 3: whatever it is that it sort of shifts your mindset. 132 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: And that was true of me in that moment. Whereas 133 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 3: I'd been having all these conversations. First of all, I 134 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 3: was blown away by the amount of attention I got 135 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 3: because not only had I not been seen, I'd gone into. 136 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: COVID at age. What would have been. 137 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: Forty five, right at the age women are really promised 138 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 3: invisibility and like your attraction is just going to disappear. 139 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 3: And I'd come out of it forty seven or for 140 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 3: forty six, and I was like, am I invisible? If 141 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 3: I just reached the age of invisibility? 142 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: Like will anyone be able to see me? And of course. 143 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 3: Immediately I am like inundated with attention from people of 144 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 3: all ages. And I was like, oh, that's great. Maybe 145 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 3: this is all I need, Like maybe I don't even 146 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 3: need to meet anyone. I'm so happy seeing my friends 147 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 3: and it's really lovely being here. And then we went 148 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 3: dancing on it. It's so ridiculously picturesque like French, but 149 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 3: we went dancing on the sun. There was no tourists 150 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 3: in Paris. Many French had left, so the city was 151 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: like just Parisians and it's normal to go and have 152 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 3: like sort of a picnic on the scent and like 153 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 3: impromptu dancing. So we got it, had a picnic, it 154 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 3: turned into dancing. It ended up dancing with this very 155 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 3: handsome gentleman. Then I ended up was like, no, you 156 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 3: should definitely come back to my flat, and then he 157 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 3: spent the night and well. 158 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: Everyone must have been so hot, like turned on for 159 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: itandemic like, yeah, not only you through this time alone 160 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: like everybody was. 161 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: Everybody was. 162 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: Everybody was just ready for quickly can we all get naked? 163 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 3: Like I was not, There was no, It was just 164 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 3: everybody was feeling like this. 165 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: And so you're meeting people in real life, you're meeting 166 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: people ina on the app. 167 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 3: Well, what happened after that one night was like, oh 168 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 3: I want more of this. It was not just like oh, 169 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: I'll be satisfied by interactions or like a fun makeout 170 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 3: session or whatever. It was just like, oh no, I 171 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 3: want more of this. And then I was like and 172 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 3: I want more, and I want more, and I. 173 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: Want most meaning attention, this meaning sex, this. 174 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 3: Meaning just naked, not even necessarily sex. I mean, yes, 175 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 3: sex is what it turned into, but it was really 176 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 3: like touch and pleasure and the like physically being with 177 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,599 Speaker 3: other totally humans. Because so much of the book, the 178 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 3: attention to the book that came out of this, I'm 179 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 3: mostly here to enjoy myself, which was what I would 180 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: respond to men on the apps when they'd be like, 181 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: what are you looking for in Paris? And I'd be like, 182 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 3: I'm mostly here to enjoy myself. So much of it 183 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 3: was being with friends, it was community, it was the 184 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: agency of sort of having Paris to yourself, the movement 185 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 3: as a woman, like all of these things were all 186 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 3: tied into pleasure for me. And also when I was 187 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: like I want more of this particular thing, it was 188 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 3: really like physical connection, like just touch and bodies and 189 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 3: three dimension and like smells and all. 190 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: The other stuff. 191 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: Tell me about the apps you were on Hinge Tinder. 192 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: There was one Wait, I love that. 193 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 3: It doesn't Sorry, I feel like I missed Hinge so quickly. 194 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 2: I you know, to this day, I don't. I don't. 195 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 3: Hinge doesn't work for me. I've gone back on it. 196 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 3: Sometimes I literally get zero. Matt, I don't know what 197 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 3: it is I'm doing incorrectly. But there was one app 198 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 3: in Paris that summer that everyone was using. 199 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 2: Called Fruits with a z H. 200 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: What's it like? 201 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 3: It doesn't exist anymore? And everybody asked me if I 202 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 3: made it up, and I said no. The gods of 203 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 3: dating apps were on my side because like it was, 204 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: it was so delicious and ludicrous, like if you needed 205 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 3: something to reflect of, like what a moment that was. 206 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 3: If everybody's just out of their mind. It was like 207 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 3: everyone's using an app called Fruits with a Z or 208 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 3: a Z if you're not American, so you would like 209 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 3: mark yourself as there was four fruits and you chose 210 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: which fruit you were depending on what you were looking for. 211 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 1: Everyone is just looking like eggplant or eggplant is not 212 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: a fruit. Cherries uh huh. 213 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, watermelon was no seeds attached, Cherries is something else. 214 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 3: I forget the other two. But literally everyone's looking for 215 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 3: the exact same thing. Like there was no there was 216 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 3: no like, oh can I just have a glass of 217 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 3: fine with you? I was just it was so funny 218 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: and so everyone is on this app and the conversation 219 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 3: would just immediately. It was not sort of like, oh 220 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: I'm here for a relationship where I'd really like to talk, 221 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 3: like it would just but in a really interesting way. 222 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 3: I do think the French, because they have such like 223 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 3: the language around everything and the language rituals around everything, 224 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 3: there was still this sort of ingrained consent even in 225 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 3: the like after not after after seventy two hours, I 226 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: was like, I'm getting so much attention, how do I 227 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 3: filter through who. 228 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 2: I actually want to talk to? 229 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 3: So I started saying to people, I'd be like, they'd say, 230 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 3: what do you because everyone would say that what are 231 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 3: you looking for here? And I'd say I'm mostly here 232 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 3: to enjoy myself, and they inevitably would say some version 233 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 3: of what I can. 234 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: Help you with that? And then I learned pretty quickly 235 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: to say. 236 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: How wait, how do you say I can help you 237 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: with that? In French? 238 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 3: No no, I was talking, yeah, but you do they 239 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 3: not speak to you in French? 240 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: No? 241 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 3: No, It was It was funny everybody most people speak English. 242 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: But also even if what I would notice is that 243 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: if they didn't, they'd put their answer through Google Translate 244 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 3: before they sent it to me, which so I would say, 245 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 3: how are you going to help me enjoy myself? Like 246 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 3: give me details, I want to know what you intend 247 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 3: to do, And sometimes the answer would come back I 248 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 3: would be like one of the guyn in coologist because 249 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 3: they would have put it through a Google Translate, so 250 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 3: they'd be like, no, yeah. It would be like the 251 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 3: most clinical language, which in and of itself. 252 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: Was sort of charming because I knew what would happen. 253 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: It was it was like vagina explicitly or oh for 254 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: sure with your glitterist. 255 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 3: I am going to move they in this direction, and 256 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 3: the first time it happened, I was. 257 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: Like, are you a gynecologist? 258 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: And then I realized what was happening because they were 259 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 3: using and then I thought, well, who am I to criticized? 260 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 3: My French is so hit and miss, like that's. 261 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: So u So it was just startling the language, like 262 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: when you're trying to be like sexy turned but. 263 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 3: You guys got really And that's why at the beginning, 264 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 3: I was like, maybe these messages are enough, Like I'm 265 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 3: really enjoying hearing someone articulate all the ways they're going 266 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 3: to bring me pleasure. But then once that manifested literally 267 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 3: in real life, I was like, oh no, I'm not 268 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 3: interested in these Like these messages are just like uh 269 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 3: the foreplay literally until I decide whether I want. 270 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: To see right, I want the fruits of the labor. 271 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: Literally, what fruit were you? Watermelon? 272 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: Oh? 273 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: No, seeds, no seeds attached? 274 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: Okay, when you came back from Paris, how did you feel? 275 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 2: Amazing? 276 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: Did you bring that sort of sexual energy back to 277 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: New York? 278 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: I did? 279 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 3: And then New York went back into lockdown. Oh my god, 280 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 3: you know it was quite funny. I do I think though, 281 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 3: what came out of that trip was a sense of 282 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 3: empowerment and optimism and understanding that what I wanted I 283 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 3: could have, things were not out of my reach and 284 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 3: all you think. 285 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: You could have found that conclusion in New York or 286 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: do you think traveling abroad alone is what gave it 287 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: to you. 288 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 3: I think I would have come to that conclusion over 289 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 3: a much longer period of time, and it was the 290 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 3: timing of the trip and the intensity of it just 291 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 3: sort of. 292 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: Fast tracked it. 293 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 3: But also I think what I took away from that 294 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 3: experience was maybe more of a reminder than a full realization. 295 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 3: But it was just like, particularly women are really encouraged 296 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 3: to think of these milestones as a happy ending, you know, 297 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 3: like there's a finality to marriage, and there's a finality 298 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 3: to kids, and you've achieved these things and understanding life 299 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 3: like there's death, that's when life ends, and before that happened, 300 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 3: life is more like I think of life more as waves, 301 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: Like instead of waiting for the other shoe to drop, 302 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: I was like, you're just going to ride this first 303 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 3: as long as it goes, and then when it's over, 304 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 3: it'll be over, and then you'll go through a difficult time, 305 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 3: but with the understanding that at some point that too 306 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 3: will be over. And it's more like thinking of life 307 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 3: as like a female orgism, which is like yes, wage right, 308 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: it's not like the male or is more like, oh, 309 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 3: you know, like you sore up and then you come 310 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 3: down and then. 311 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: The next time write it down. Life is like a female. 312 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: That if you approach it like that. 313 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 3: I really think the way we think of narrative, because 314 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 3: male men have had so much control over the structure 315 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: of narrative, is very tied to how they experience pleasure. 316 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 3: And when you really think about what a female narrative 317 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: looks like, if you tie it into how women, not 318 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: all women experience the same, but like more of how 319 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 3: women experience pleasure, it is much more like ups and downs, 320 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 3: and sometimes the crest is better and sometimes the low 321 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 3: is lower, but it's like up and really go approaching 322 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 3: life like that, and for the bad times too, it's 323 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 3: just like when things feel like they're working against you. 324 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: It's not that it's not upsetting, and it's not that 325 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 3: it's not difficult, and it's not that it can't be devastating, 326 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: but like it's not a permanent existence. And I sometimes 327 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 3: think we have an easier time when things are terrible. 328 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: Being like, oh, just things are terrible and this is 329 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: just how it's. 330 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 3: Going to be than when things are really good and 331 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 3: experiencing them without the fear of it ending, just being like, 332 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 3: I'm just going to let everything go. Yeah, it's just 333 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 3: gonna it's just going to go my way. I'm just 334 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 3: going to assume it's going to go my way and 335 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 3: at one point it won't. But I don't know when that, Like, 336 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 3: I'm just going to assume it's this is the way 337 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 3: it's going until I'm it's old. 338 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: Otherwise. 339 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: Your time in Paris, right, did you ever like fall 340 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: in love? Was that ever your intention? 341 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: I see some of the men that I met that 342 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 3: summer still, but not in a i'd like, am I 343 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 3: going to be in a relationship with the twenty seven 344 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 3: year old? 345 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: Probably? Not, Like I wasn't sleeping with twenty seven year 346 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: old when you were forty two? 347 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 3: No, I was forty six, forty seven, you were forty six. 348 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: Was it your first time sleeping with someone younger like that? 349 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: No? Okay again, And can. 350 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 3: I just say in my present I've joked about this, 351 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 3: but not really even joking in the last two years. 352 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: If you think of like the top five things that 353 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: your brain is occupied with, Like pre COVID, I was 354 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 3: young for this, because I think it happens to many 355 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 3: people in their early fifties. But I had two parents 356 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 3: back to back, quite ill who needed a lot of caretaking, 357 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 3: and so I had gone from being not a full 358 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 3: time caretaker, but a lot of my life was spent 359 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 3: in that role to COVID to this. So there was 360 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: sort of a stretch of this where I was like, oh, 361 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: I was just like sex and I'm so excited this 362 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 3: look it's so available to us. And we were this 363 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 3: is such a lie that as you age, you're not 364 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 3: attractive and I can't you know, sex and touch going 365 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 3: from number one to like number five, and now the 366 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 3: only thing I think about is money, followed by real 367 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: estate eight, followed by right, Like it has dropped to 368 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 3: the bottom now where I'm like, what was I thinking about? 369 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 3: So maybe that'll be the next book. But it's interesting 370 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 3: how that shifts. And it's not that I'm not interested 371 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 3: in sex, or that I don't have a sex life, 372 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: or that these things aren't appealing, but it's just the 373 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 3: priority has shifted and I think it's very reflective, not 374 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 3: really even of my age, but of this moment that 375 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 3: we're in, and also the experience of five years of 376 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 3: knowing that this is available to me when I want 377 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 3: it and how I want it, and subsequently it removes 378 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: that anxiety of oh my god, if I don't grab 379 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 3: this now, it might be my last chance, which I 380 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 3: think gets attached to a lot of conversations around women 381 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: and men in general, but particularly. 382 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: As you age. 383 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 3: So the reason I'm reaching back for this sometimes is 384 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 3: like I'm just like, what was what did happen? 385 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: I can't actually right? 386 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 3: And then I remember I just have to It's not 387 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 3: at forefront of my mind the way it was a 388 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 3: few years ago. 389 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: No, it makes complete sense because I do think sex 390 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: moves on that priority list all the time, and like 391 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: some times it's really important and sometimes it's not, and 392 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: we don't really, I think, have control over when it's 393 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:08,959 Speaker 1: important and when it's not. 394 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 3: And it's also like it's a measure of everything else 395 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 3: that's going on in your life. You talk to women 396 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 3: who have small children, and the most romantic thing they 397 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 3: can describe is their partner loaded the dishwasher and cleaned 398 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 3: the bathroom. Or they're a good parent for the children, 399 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 3: and I and having now sort of had a cat 400 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 3: bird seat to that in so many of my friends 401 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: different versions of relationships, I recognize why when you have 402 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 3: small children, the most romantic thing that could possibly happen 403 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 3: to you is someone alleviating the load or witnessing someone 404 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 3: being a good parent. But what we find the most 405 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 3: satisfying shifts so significantly depending on the acute need that 406 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 3: we have in our lives. And then in addition, you're 407 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 3: not approaching something as like it's scarce. There's no scarcity 408 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: mindset around this, which I think for women and romance 409 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 3: and love and sex and attraction, it's you're always trying 410 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 3: to think of it, as you know, with a scarcity 411 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 3: mindset that's Internet speak. But no, no, no, particularly as you age, 412 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: you're really like, oh, you're so lucky someone took a 413 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 3: look at you. And I think that can encourage you 414 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 3: to approach it with a level of sort of anxiety 415 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 3: and fear and I'm holding on to it. And once 416 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 3: you realize that there's an abundance of it, and you're like, oh, right, 417 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: I don't have time to deal with this storey now 418 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 3: because I really want to think about where's the money 419 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 3: coming from, and what does healthcare look like? 420 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 2: All this, all those sorts of conversations. 421 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: I guess I want to know if you are just 422 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: sort of like in your nature a defiant person, and 423 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: so those sort of like messages that are sent towards women, 424 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: if you just again in your nature sort of like 425 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: didn't believe them, or if there's something that happened that 426 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: made you be like, wait, fuck that, I'm going to 427 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: like find the love and sex that I want regardless 428 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: of what everyone's sort of telling me I should be. 429 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 2: So I think it's shifted. 430 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 3: The culture around this has shifted enormously in the last 431 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 3: ten years. When I was thirty nine turning forty, I 432 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 3: wrote a book it was called No One Tells You 433 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 3: This about that experience of not being partnered and not 434 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 3: having children at this age where you certainly when I 435 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 3: was thirty nine forty was like the cliff you go 436 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 3: off of, never to be seen from again. 437 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: That is really how it was framed. 438 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: And to get to the other side of this and 439 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 3: realize the things that were hard were not what I 440 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 3: was prepared for. I was, as I said, in the 441 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 3: early days of being a real caretaker for ill parents 442 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 3: and other family stuff. And on the flip side, I 443 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 3: was having so much fun and I was not prepared 444 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 3: for either of those things to happen. 445 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: You were both feeling like immense joy and power. 446 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 3: And also the ways in which not having a support 447 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 3: system when you are everyone else's support system is really 448 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 3: really hard, and because we don't have ritual or narrative. 449 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 3: This has changed again in the last decade. Incredibly, we 450 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 3: don't have a lot of narratives of value around women 451 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 3: outside of marriage or outside of partnership or parenthood. It's 452 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 3: hard to be recognized and there's no ritual around it, 453 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,959 Speaker 3: and it's very difficult to shoulder all those things when 454 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 3: there's no way to celebrate it or recognize it or 455 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 3: mourn it or anything. And so being in that position 456 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 3: and not having a cultural support system around it, but 457 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 3: also a regular support system around it was really difficult. 458 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 3: And at the same time, I was like, oh my god, 459 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 3: I'm having the time of my life. I've become a 460 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 3: source of envy, which you're not prepared for as a 461 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 3: forty year old woman for so many people around you, 462 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 3: And that became a fun but also very tricky and 463 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 3: weird thing to navigate a source of envy is so, yes, 464 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 3: that increases, It only increases. 465 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 2: I've gotten used to it. 466 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 1: But being if your friends were jealous because everywhere untethered. 467 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 3: Yes, it was just you're like a source of envy 468 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 3: over you know, the amount of freedom you have, the 469 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 3: ability because right when I was sort of hitting this 470 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 3: sense of power and being in my prime is right 471 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 3: at a moment, many friends were in the deep end 472 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: of small kids, and it was like I was able 473 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 3: to tap into the level of intelligence and maturity and 474 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 3: like finances and freedom of all these life choices in 475 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 3: my prime in a way that women raising children often 476 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: don't get to do until their sixties. And so I 477 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 3: went from feeling like I was very behind at age 478 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 3: thirty nine to buy forty five, feeling like I was 479 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 3: a decade ahead. 480 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: It was a weird flip. 481 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: Well, I love how you keep saying in my prime, oh, 482 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: because I think of that hannahgatz By set where they're 483 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: like a girl who's sixteen is never in her prime. Yeah, 484 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: but that is so the language is when you're sixteen 485 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: when you're twenty five. But to be like I was 486 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: forty five and I was in my prime like that simply. 487 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 3: I think this is why we have I mean, I 488 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 3: have lots of theories around this, but like the reason 489 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 3: that the way we talk about we don't see women 490 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 3: in their forties or fifties in their prime as fully 491 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 3: realized creatures is because it is scary to have moved 492 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 3: I don't know, for the patriarchy, for lack of a 493 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 3: better term, to have women who've moved on from needing 494 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 3: that recognition to being very powerful and with enormous agency 495 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 3: and the ability to make decisions, and it really is 496 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 3: destabilizing to a lot of systems, systems that are in place. 497 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,239 Speaker 3: And I think that's why we get those women are 498 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 3: often portrayed either as the punchline, the cougar. 499 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: Or the witch. 500 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 3: There's there's very you sort of go from the virgin 501 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 3: to the whore to sort of like the cougar, which 502 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 3: is we're going to mock you, to the witch, which 503 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: is that you're scary. And I was like, I feel 504 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 3: so powerful and so fully myself and so in my prime. 505 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: And because of that experience of being a writer who'd 506 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 3: often look to narratives as we all do, to figure 507 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 3: out how to move through life and how to think 508 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 3: of ourselves, to have them all completely disappear, and then 509 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 3: the ones that existed be the complete opposite of my 510 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 3: own experience. I just stopped paying attention to it at all, 511 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 3: So it was not I don't think of it as 512 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 3: defiance necessarily as like folly want shame on you, but 513 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 3: like eventually it's like I don't believe any of this 514 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 3: because none of it has proven to be true. I 515 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 3: just can't even be bothered to turn my attention to 516 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 3: it because it just feels like a waste of time. 517 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 3: It's like the definition of insanity, like doing the same 518 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 3: thing over and over. There's just nothing, there's no accurate reflection. 519 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: I'm curious, like you have you sound you seem to 520 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: have always been so independent. I'm wondering if there was 521 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: a time like earlier in your life where you did 522 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: think you were going to get married, where you did 523 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: think you were going to have kids, or you did 524 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: think you were going to sort of do the nuclear 525 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: family thing. 526 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 3: I'm sure I don't. I think that it was. It 527 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 3: wasn't even that I thought. I think it was just 528 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 3: an assumption. Hm. I grew up in a family that 529 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 3: was emotionally what was emotionally on sane, it was the 530 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 3: financial unstable though, so I've been supporting myself out of 531 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 3: necessity since I was seventeen or eighteen, and also generationally 532 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 3: from a generation where you just didn't call your parents 533 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 3: right like because you couldn't because it would cost a 534 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 3: lot of money. 535 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 2: So part of that is that. 536 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 3: But I'm sure some of the anxiety I was feeling 537 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 3: at thirty nine was this sense of like, oh, I 538 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 3: just assumed at some point I would be partnering or 539 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 3: I would be having kids, and now I really have 540 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 3: to look at if these are things I directly want, 541 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 3: I'm going to have to make different decisions in my 542 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 3: life to make them happen right now. And I never 543 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,479 Speaker 3: fault women who are like, I want to have a baby, 544 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 3: this is my number one priority. 545 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: I want to make it happen. 546 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 3: Or I want to be married, and my number one 547 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 3: priority is getting married, and I'm going to prioritize that 548 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 3: because once you get out of university or college, you're 549 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 3: not in the milia that supports that necessarily. And I 550 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 3: think at thirty nine I really was like, what is 551 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 3: it you do want? Like I had to make that 552 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 3: decision because when I made that right around thirty when 553 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 3: I was like, you've got to get your professional life 554 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 3: in order. I went into overdrive for a long time 555 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 3: of just like I work, and it was amazing work 556 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 3: and I was very happy doing it, but it was 557 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 3: my main focus. And so I sort of got to 558 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: the end of my thirties and I was like, hold on, 559 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 3: hold the phone, what do you know If I want 560 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 3: to have a kid right now, You're going to have 561 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 3: to make really different decisions about children and do you 562 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 3: want to be married, Like what is it that you want? 563 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 3: And it was at that point that I was like, 564 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 3: I don't know. It's not that I don't want these things. 565 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 3: I don't want them enough to particularly with children. I 566 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 3: knew I'd be okay without children. It wasn't a clear 567 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 3: I'm sometimes skeptical about how black and white these decisions 568 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 3: sometimes are, that's the way they get framed. 569 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 2: It wasn't like I don't want children. 570 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 3: It was a recognition that I didn't want them enough 571 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 3: to make all the changes in my life that would 572 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 3: have to happen financially, geographically to support bringing a child 573 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 3: into my life, and that I recognize deeply I would 574 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 3: be okay without children. 575 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: Something we talk about on this show a lot is unlearning, 576 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: specifically unlearning something you've been taught about love. Can you 577 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: speak to something you had to really unlearn about love 578 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: in your experience? 579 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 3: I will say I think that unlearning and I think 580 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 3: this is probably true for everyone, but I think it's 581 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 3: particularly true for women of deserving love that you can 582 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 3: just be loved that you don't. There's no romance story 583 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 3: where a woman has not had to do the I 584 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 3: never loved Bridget Jones the movie books Board the shit 585 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 3: out of me, and I could never hold my attention. 586 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 3: But that idea of counting calories, or when you rewatch 587 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 3: sex in the city and she's like, oh my god, 588 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 3: you farted. 589 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: I farted. He's never going to love me. 590 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 3: Like all of these insane belief systems that are like, oh, 591 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 3: I have to deserve the attention or deserve love is 592 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 3: a hard thing to unlearn. 593 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: Well, it's also reminding me immediately of what you said 594 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: about Americans and earning vacation, yes, or earning rest. Yeah, 595 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: It's like, we do have to really earn everything, don't we. 596 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: The love that we get, the rest that we take, 597 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: the vacation that we go on. 598 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 3: And I would encourage everyone and particularly women to like. 599 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 3: So many of these rituals and expectations are rooted in 600 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 3: a history, all of history up until fifty years ago, 601 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 3: and that only then for certain conjure society is women 602 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 3: were fully financially dependent on men, that marriage was an economic. 603 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: Decision to move through class systems that you did. 604 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 3: Your survival was so dependent on keeping the money earner 605 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 3: whenever that looked like, at whatever time period that was 606 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 3: happy and satisfied that that you literally forget about earning love. 607 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 3: You had to earn your survival. And we have confused 608 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 3: that with love and a narrative to make it look attractive. 609 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 3: But these things are coming from anywhere. And when I 610 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 3: look at my friends, when I look at my mother's generation, 611 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 3: my parents didn't divorce, but friends of mine's mothers who 612 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 3: did divorce and then immediately got remarried or were immediately 613 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 3: thinking like I have to be married for social value 614 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 3: or for finance, And I'm like, who am I I 615 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 3: can't pass judgment on this because your financial safety was 616 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 3: dependent on this, And of course you're going through all 617 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 3: these hoops and we have now inherited those expectations without 618 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 3: necessarily the financial need for it, and then we've confused 619 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 3: it with many many other things. But I think it's 620 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 3: such the last my lifespan has bridged such a vast 621 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 3: transition in this, and it's all gotten confused together, and 622 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 3: there's now a pushback to it. So unlearning that it's 623 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 3: like a privilege to be able to unlearn that because 624 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 3: I live in a world where it's possible that I 625 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 3: don't have to earn someone's love, which is pretty rare 626 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 3: on the scope of history. 627 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely, because it sounds like when you were interacting with 628 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: men and the way you interact with men and sex, 629 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: it's really from a distance, it doesn't seem to not 630 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: always take okay now, I mean, you just have this 631 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: my My perception of you at this point is like 632 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: you have this really strong, safe, secure relationship to sex 633 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't really shake your. 634 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 2: Oh it doesn't. I mean, please, I've had my. 635 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 3: More than more than I care to count. I think 636 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 3: I'm less prone to that now. It's more the sense 637 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 3: of the things that we I think are really conditioned 638 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 3: to find exciting in romance, and that when we're younger, 639 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 3: you start to see, as I guess, red flags or 640 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 3: I'm like this thing that I would have thought was 641 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 3: so that I did think was so romantic and so 642 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 3: exciting and so like, Oh, I now look at it 643 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, this is a problem that I 644 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 3: don't have time. I'm for like it is, that is 645 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 3: what happens. It's not the I'm holding it emotionally in 646 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 3: the distance. It's more like I recognize more easily what's 647 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 3: actually going on. 648 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, earlier, what's one red flag that you used to 649 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: not ignore that you have to ignore? Now? 650 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: Oh God, what would it be? 651 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: Now? 652 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 3: I'm so good at I don't even think about it. 653 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: It's sort of like it's what if people call it so? 654 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 3: Of course, some of this language didn't exist when I 655 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 3: was your age, where it's just like the love. 656 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: Bombing of it. 657 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 3: I just remember falling madly, madly in love with this guy, 658 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 3: I mean really in a devastating way when I was 659 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 3: in my thirties and he was just like, sweep you 660 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 3: off your feet, flowers everywhere and doing this, and it 661 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 3: was just that behavior is no longer appealing to me 662 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 3: because it is not coming from a place that has 663 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 3: anything to do with me. It's not even that I 664 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 3: look at it now and I'm like, oh, you've a problem. 665 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: I just literally it just. 666 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 3: Flies by me in a way that it just can't 667 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 3: hold my attention anymore. But oh my god, did that 668 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 3: hold my attention when I was in my thirties, like 669 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 3: just to a degree of like, oh, I'm so in lover, 670 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 3: this is so romantic or you know, all of those things, 671 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 3: because it is exciting and I see it now and 672 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 3: I don't think I'm cynical, and I don't like to 673 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 3: be cynical, but I just sort of I don't even 674 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 3: have to think about it now. I'm just like, oh, 675 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 3: you know, this is not based and anything having to 676 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 3: do with emotion or love or value. 677 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: When someone sort of love bombs, it doesn't hold your attention. 678 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: I do want to know what holds your attention? 679 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:30,719 Speaker 2: This is a good question. 680 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 3: Right now, the only thing that holds my attention is 681 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 3: the ways I make money. It's New York real estate, 682 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 3: Like what helps? 683 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 2: That's where women should be putting their attentions. 684 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 3: Oh my god, yeah, completely completely. I do think thoughtfulness 685 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 3: and intelligence. But then again, you're meeting a lot of 686 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 3: fifth year old men who are either newly divorced and 687 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 3: don't know how to be alone, or they're in open 688 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 3: marriages and that the exhaustion of all of it just 689 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 3: overwhelms me. And I'm like, I actually don't need to 690 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 3: be in a relationship at this point to think about money. 691 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 3: So that's when I go back into my like where 692 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 3: is the money? 693 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 2: Send me some? 694 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: My last question, Yeah, what's your advice to women when 695 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: it comes to dating? Oh? 696 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 2: God, I don't know. Do I have advice? 697 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: My god? What's your advice to me? 698 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: I think, what do you want? 699 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: Yeah? Figuring that out. 700 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 3: Because I really think what do you want? And like, 701 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 3: whatever you want is fine. If what you want is 702 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 3: love for whatever however you term that, or in like 703 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 3: emotional support, satisfaction long term, if you want to build 704 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 3: a family together. Knowing what you want and I think 705 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 3: that women have been mocked punished for saying what they want, 706 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 3: but really knowing what you want is the starting point 707 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 3: of proceeding. So if all you want is like physical pleasure, great, 708 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 3: go and get it. If what you want is someone 709 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 3: to come home to, is cooking for you, go and 710 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 3: get that. But like, know what you want? 711 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Okay, thank you so much. Glitnas for 712 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: Chris Delight. Thank you. 713 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: It's a good exercise for me Fangku out. 714 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 3: We were reminded to think about things other than pre 715 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 3: war apartments on the over rest. 716 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 1: What do I want? This is something I'm always asking myself. 717 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: After talking to glynnis I definitely want to go to Paris, 718 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: But in the long term, I'm still figuring that out. 719 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: Maybe next week we can figure it out together. Thanks 720 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: for listening. I'll talk to y'all next week. Boys Sover 721 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hopewordard. 722 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our 723 00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Emily Meronoff, engineering by Bahid fre and 724 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: mixing and mastering by a Boo Zafar. If you liked 725 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: this episode, please tell a friend and don't forget to rate, review, 726 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: and subscribe to boy Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 727 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: and wherever you get your favorite shows.