Speaker 1: They're literally just putting more and more of the best
Speaker 1: collateral humanities ever known on their balance sheet. Most people
Speaker 1: in traditional media they can't explain to you what micro
Speaker 1: Strategy is even doing.
Speaker 2: They may not even appreciate.
Speaker 1: Everybody wants to pay their bills and get ahead and
Speaker 1: provide a great future for themselves and their family. Back
Speaker 1: in the day when people were stockpiling gold, there were
Speaker 1: companies that did that. The most successful event in England
Speaker 1: became the Bicker of England.
Speaker 3: The very nature of the business is to leverage it.
Speaker 3: Most of them are trying to earn more bitcoin per share.
Speaker 3: But if you don't understand what the target is, then
Speaker 3: how do you really value? Do you find most investors
Speaker 3: have a hard time trying to figure that out. I mean,
Speaker 3: all right, well, let's just talk about the talk of
Speaker 3: the town here, not you, even though you are the
Speaker 3: talk of the town, being the bitcoin tratury space. You've
Speaker 3: obviously started a couple of shows talking about it, sort
Speaker 3: of rose to fame, sort of with sort of the
Speaker 3: micro Strategy True North kind of group, if you will.
Speaker 3: So let's talk about that. Let's start with, first of all,
Speaker 3: what do you see as the difference between companies that
Speaker 3: put bitcoin on the balance sheet versus bitcoin treasury strategy companies.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you kind of just made the differentiation,
Speaker 1: which is like, you can just put bitcoin on your
Speaker 1: balance sheet, right, you have cash coming in, you don't
Speaker 1: need all of it. You can buy some bitcoin, it's
Speaker 1: on your balance sheet. That's one strategy as opposed to
Speaker 1: really using the capital markets, engaging the capital markets, and
Speaker 1: issuing additional equity, issuing debt, issuing other instruments like preferred stock,
Speaker 1: to really aggressively build that bitcoin treasury on your balance sheet.
Speaker 1: So until this conference, I feel like I just kept
Speaker 1: kind of saying in different interviews that you can just
Speaker 1: have to coron the balance sheet, or you can do
Speaker 1: the lbe leverage bitcoin equity strategy or engaging the capital markets,
Speaker 1: however you want to say it, being more aggressive. Some
Speaker 1: people don't like the word playbook, but the micro strategy playbook,
Speaker 1: like that's the strategy. But how else are you going
Speaker 1: to differentiate? And it was really just maybe different operating businesses,
Speaker 1: like we're a healthcare company, that's the operating business, or
Speaker 1: we're a BIAI, that's our operating business. And I think
Speaker 1: what we saw this week was what Matt Cole said
Speaker 1: with alpha and beta of like actually trying to not
Speaker 1: just do the capital markets activity, but almost in a
Speaker 1: hedge fund sort of operating style, go identify other ways
Speaker 1: to buy bitcoin or basically arbitrage your way into more
Speaker 1: bitcoin through those opportunities, and that could be the business.
Speaker 1: And now I'm hearing conversations of especially as they pop
Speaker 1: up in other international markets. I mean, if you can
Speaker 1: only go to finance or a startup in a certain jurisdiction,
Speaker 1: maybe that bitcoin treasury company can have a different, differentiated
Speaker 1: operating business by launching an OTC desk or doing structured products,
Speaker 1: like just having an operating business that makes sense for
Speaker 1: that market and provides those products and services, but as importantly,
Speaker 1: keep it bitcoin branded, in the same way that Metaplanet
Speaker 1: now is going to do the Metaplanet bitcoin hotel instead
Speaker 1: of just we have one hotel. I've got to keep
Speaker 1: it on brand and keep it bitcoin.
Speaker 3: So then companies that are putting bitcoin on the balance
Speaker 3: sheet not so attractive, like cool, we have money, you
Speaker 3: have a balance sheet, that money's parked in different things.
Speaker 3: You put it in bitcoin, oh well, versus leveraging the
Speaker 3: ballot sheet and the business the revenue of the business
Speaker 3: to then engineer more bitcoin. That's the big differentiator. What
Speaker 3: would you say is the biggest misconception most investors have
Speaker 3: when taken and look at these types of companies.
Speaker 1: I mean most people in traditional media, whether it's CNBC
Speaker 1: or beyond. I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular.
Speaker 1: They probably couldn't even pick on them all. They can't
Speaker 1: explain to you what micro Strategy is even doing. They
Speaker 1: may not even appreciate bitcoin, and so I think it's
Speaker 1: really there's so many different doors that you can come into,
Speaker 1: whether it's the bitcoin door, or whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: somebody tells their buddy, Hey, there's this mstr metaplant sort
Speaker 1: of stock that's just going vertical during certain periods of time, right,
Speaker 1: not financial advice, and they're like, oh right, it's everybody
Speaker 1: wants to make money. Everybody wants to pay their bills
Speaker 1: and get ahead and provide a great future for themselves
Speaker 1: and their family. So I just think we're that early
Speaker 1: that even talking to some of the employees and executives
Speaker 1: at game Stop at not steak and Shake, No, it
Speaker 1: is steak and Shake.
Speaker 2: A couple hours ago, I was saying.
Speaker 1: One of the places in New York that does burgers,
Speaker 1: but it's not Steak and Shake.
Speaker 2: I was getting all mixed up.
Speaker 1: But they are doing these announcements, but internally, I don't
Speaker 1: think they really expected, especially Steak and Shake, like such
Speaker 1: a reception, such a loyal audience. And I mean they're
Speaker 1: just like saying what every corporate executive has said, which
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense that hey, it's been overwhelming support,
Speaker 1: you know, but if you are not already kind of
Speaker 1: familiar with that appreciative of bitcoin as the asset, you
Speaker 1: probably weren't expecting that, And so you're kind of scrambling
Speaker 1: from a all sorts of different perspectives, whether it's operational
Speaker 1: or media investor relations.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of like
Speaker 3: a traditional investor trying to understand what's going on in
Speaker 3: this big renchursery strategy space and sort of bringing in
Speaker 3: like maybe like a Warren Buffett or Benjamin Graham values
Speaker 3: on type framework. So one thing I hear quite often
Speaker 3: as soon as I talk about one of these things
Speaker 3: is what's the underlying business model?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: But when you look at a company like MicroStrategy or
Speaker 3: company like Metaplanet, the stock is the business model, right,
Speaker 3: it is the product that they offer.
Speaker 1: So we're seeing that now.
Speaker 3: So those are some things. I'd also look at maybe
Speaker 3: some of the metrics and how they're measured, right, So like,
Speaker 3: for example, most of them are trying to earn more
Speaker 3: bitcoin per share, but if you don't understand what the
Speaker 3: target is, then how do you really value them? So
Speaker 3: those are some of the things I was thinking about it.
Speaker 3: Or why do some trade, like metaplanic trade is such
Speaker 3: a high valuation compared to a mind strike? Do you
Speaker 3: find most investors have a hard time trying to figure
Speaker 3: that out?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean even members of True North that they spend
Speaker 1: arguably twelve to sixteen hours a day studying this stuff.
Speaker 2: And they range from.
Speaker 1: Guys that are still in college to guys that could
Speaker 1: be my dad. I'm forty three.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: It's so brand new that any certain aspect to it
Speaker 1: that's not appreciated can kind of throw you off. So
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, it's just the stock and it's
Speaker 1: this flywheel and it's not sustainable. But if you understand
Speaker 1: that bitcoin is pristine collateral and that that's literally within
Speaker 1: a twenty four hour period, if you're selling stock and
Speaker 1: turning right around and buying bitcoin with it. I mean,
Speaker 1: compare that to real estate or building a hotel and
Speaker 1: how long it takes to become profitable, to hold out
Speaker 1: to be profitable from a cash flow perspective, or be
Speaker 1: able to drop that down after all your expenses on
Speaker 1: your balance sheet.
Speaker 2: I mean, they're literally just.
Speaker 1: Putting more and more of the best collateral humanities ever
Speaker 1: known on their balance sheet. And one of the panels
Speaker 1: over in a bitcoin inmesterday at Paris Blockchain we the
Speaker 1: one guy said it really really well. Part of what
Speaker 1: he said was back in the day when people were
Speaker 1: stockpiling gold, there were companies that did that, and the
Speaker 1: company that did that the most successfully event in England
Speaker 1: became the Bank of England. Like that's where like if
Speaker 1: you can really appreciate that, that's I think the foundation
Speaker 1: of what If you're not appreciating that, it might be
Speaker 1: really tough to kind of write then all the preferred
Speaker 1: stock and all these other tickers and all these companies
Speaker 1: and copycats and what everybody's chatting about. That kind of
Speaker 1: that comes after understanding bitcoin and Christine collateral.
Speaker 3: Do you think most people come into the space understand
Speaker 3: bitcoin at that level.
Speaker 2: No, we're all on a journey. Yeah, absolutely not.
Speaker 3: I mean because if they're trying to get bitcoin for
Speaker 3: shared you know, one of the things I hear I
Speaker 3: want to ask you about is the risk in the market.
Speaker 3: So we'll come to that. But in regards to the risk,
Speaker 3: it's like what happens in a downturn? Well, if my
Speaker 3: goal is to get more bitcoin for a share, what
Speaker 3: is the downturn? Is my bitcoin going up? Because if
Speaker 3: one bitcoin equals one bitcoin, if you're pricing it in bitcoin,
Speaker 3: if on price in bitcoin, what downturn are we talking about?
Speaker 2: And really digging into these companies.
Speaker 1: So that's what these different groups and live streams of
Speaker 1: podcasts are doing a great job just analyzing is what
Speaker 1: what is the risk profile? Because during certain periods of time,
Speaker 1: if something by definition starts with a lower market cap
Speaker 1: and they're really being aggressive with their strategy, there's probably
Speaker 1: going to be periods of help performance versus micro strategy
Speaker 1: or versus right, So it is kind of like this,
Speaker 1: you know coin, it's sort of a phenomenon, but with
Speaker 1: bitcoin as far as these different corporate rappers, so that's
Speaker 1: interesting and to say the obvious, not all of them.
Speaker 1: We're going to be successful. We've already seen, right, won't
Speaker 1: name names with There's already been companies that they did
Speaker 1: the strategy and now you don't hear about them anymore
Speaker 1: because they didn't go about it in.
Speaker 2: The correct way. From a government standpoint, I'll just leave.
Speaker 3: It at that.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's important to have the alignment throughout the governance
Speaker 3: of that to do that, But let's take a look
Speaker 3: at it. If we think about the companies again, like
Speaker 3: micro strategy, you're a better planet if their ticker is
Speaker 3: the product they're offering, then I would ask you the question.
Speaker 3: Right now, a lot of people are saying, maybe this
Speaker 3: is an over a zuber bubble. Maybe we're seeing this
Speaker 3: rise too fast and the crash is coming. How many
Speaker 3: of these types of companies do you think the market
Speaker 3: could bear. I think the market can bear an infinite
Speaker 3: amount of companies just putting bitcoin on the balance sheet
Speaker 3: without taking on leverage. Certainly beyond that, I don't know
Speaker 3: I think I don't know that micro Strategy would ever
Speaker 3: do this. But let's say we go to get into
Speaker 3: a bear market and there's a company that they have
Speaker 3: ten bitcoin but they're trading at eight bitcoin. Well maybe
Speaker 3: a company that's in a really strong position, like MicroStrategy
Speaker 3: could just buy them for nine bitcoin and everybody's happy enough.
Speaker 3: So I think they'll be kind of like what we're
Speaker 3: seeing with the miners, some consolidation and some just all
Speaker 3: of that different nuance of about activity and m and
Speaker 3: a as we as.
Speaker 2: Just is it of this break new future?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I mean we have thousands of financial products
Speaker 3: in the market today, are tens of thousands of financial products,
Speaker 3: and if you look at each one of them having
Speaker 3: a little bit of a different strategy than you might
Speaker 3: almost look at them as like an ETF, right, where
Speaker 3: each one is just a little bit different. And there's
Speaker 3: thousands of ETFs as well, but.
Speaker 1: There shouldn't be thousands more. I mean, guys that we
Speaker 1: all know and love in the space that have pioneered it,
Speaker 1: I mean they've specifically said the comment, I don't know
Speaker 1: why there aren't more ETFs and structured products like there's
Speaker 1: just and it's hopefully it gets back to the foundational
Speaker 1: education of bitcoin, like own bitcoin, go through that process
Speaker 1: to really educate yourself on it as round yourself with
Speaker 1: people that can help you with that. But whatever door
Speaker 1: they come in through, great, right, it's all good for bitcoin.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So if they're like these ETFs, then there should
Speaker 3: be even more of them, like you said, then, like
Speaker 3: I said, there's maybe an infinite mouth that we can
Speaker 3: absorb into the market. The problem will become how do
Speaker 3: you get attention? So anyone can go watch an ETF.
Speaker 3: I could do that. I've looked into it. How do
Speaker 3: you get attention to that ETF? So we sort of
Speaker 3: have this window and time right now where these companies
Speaker 3: can sort of take advantage of that, but eventually the
Speaker 3: law of doomision or turns will sort of diminish that.
Speaker 3: So do you think this sort of irrational xuberance last
Speaker 3: six months, twelve months, a year?
Speaker 2: How does that take her off?
Speaker 1: I know some guys are looking at it as it's
Speaker 1: going to be the it's going to be the traditional cycle,
Speaker 1: and you know, no matter what happens, you're going to
Speaker 1: take a certain amount off the table, or at least
Speaker 1: have that mindset of later this year, right is just
Speaker 1: be really thoughtful about what you're doing if you're, you know,
Speaker 1: wanting to get out of a position. But I think
Speaker 1: it's going to be a longer I mean, just everything
Speaker 1: from the US regulatory environment, the government, I mean, everything
Speaker 1: seems to be setting up for the potential of the
Speaker 1: price going quite a bit higher this year.
Speaker 2: And into next year.
Speaker 1: I mean, if the the US government or I saw
Speaker 1: something on x about Adam back City's consulting and software
Speaker 1: wealth funds. I mean, these things are happening. So if
Speaker 1: they kind of stare step their way up the way
Speaker 1: that we've heard for a while now the ten basis
Speaker 1: points to one percent, two percent. Now you're hearing five percent,
Speaker 1: and not just from the Kathy Woods of the world,
Speaker 1: but from more and more, you know, the black Rock
Speaker 1: saying one to two percent that keeps stair stepping its
Speaker 1: way up. Then arguably we might make sense that the
Speaker 1: price just stair steps its way up and it just
Speaker 1: grinds up with volatility for a longer period and maybe
Speaker 1: we see some sort of low offt top in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty six. Yeah, nobody knows the future.
Speaker 3: Nobody knows, but we do know cycles and we know
Speaker 3: how they repeat it, so most likely until proved otherwise
Speaker 3: they're going to repeat the nature of this business. If
Speaker 3: we talk about the Treasury Strategy companies, the nature of
Speaker 3: that business is leverage, right, leverage the balance sheet to
Speaker 3: increase the bitcoin for a share. So the very nature
Speaker 3: of the business is to leverage it. And then we
Speaker 3: know humans then take things too far, so then naturally
Speaker 3: some people are going to push it way too far.
Speaker 3: And so we talk about sort of like the warm
Speaker 3: buffet quote. Right when the tide goes out, we see
Speaker 3: wo'swining naked. So a lot of people thought Sailor would
Speaker 3: get liquidated in the last downturn. He built a balance
Speaker 3: sheet in a way that he didn't. But some people
Speaker 3: maybe won't do that. So I guess what would you say,
Speaker 3: are some of the biggest risks or red flags that
Speaker 3: you would look for in some of these companies going
Speaker 3: into a downturn that might scare you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to your point, the leverage ratio super important.
Speaker 1: Sale and Strategy very publicly said they're targeting a twenty
Speaker 1: or thirty percent equity leverage point, So anyone that's maybe
Speaker 1: above that, and again digging into the details, of it
Speaker 1: technically was impossible. After Salem got the traditional bank loans
Speaker 1: off of it balance sheet, it like it wasn't it's
Speaker 1: not collateralized. There's no margin feature on any of this.
Speaker 1: And so to the extent that companies can follow that playbook,
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, I think they'll be
Speaker 1: in a better position than the people that are trying
Speaker 1: to just make it up as they go and really
Speaker 1: just view it more as a trade. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so.
Speaker 3: The leverage is sort of the main thing you're looking for.
Speaker 1: The leverage and what are the covenants, what are the
Speaker 1: details about Like if bitcoin goes down to eighty thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: you know, do they need to sell some bitcoin? And
Speaker 1: and again you know Strive and Knakamoto, right, David Bailey
Speaker 1: and mac cole have both set publicly bitcoin per share.
Speaker 1: We're gonna optimize for bitcoin per share and that could
Speaker 1: mean buy bitcoin or selling bitcoin. They're super sharp people
Speaker 1: in the industry.
Speaker 2: I talked to you.
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, when you're a smaller player, and I
Speaker 1: think Davids had said this right, when you're when you're
Speaker 1: a smaller player, you can probably do that.
Speaker 2: And you're not going to move the market.
Speaker 1: But at a certain point, you know, they may just
Speaker 1: by personal opinion, I think they may rethink that because.
Speaker 2: Just the messaging. What do you think.
Speaker 1: My thought is, when you're smaller, maybe it gives more
Speaker 1: investor confidence that it's being actively managed. But when you
Speaker 1: get to the point of like a strategy, and you
Speaker 1: have half a million bitcoin or a million bitcoin, I
Speaker 1: mean I feel like the messaging has to be that
Speaker 1: you're not going to sell your bitcoin.
Speaker 3: I think everyone's going to have their own strategy, and
Speaker 3: that's why all these financial products will have a place
Speaker 3: in the market. Right There's going to be a place
Speaker 3: for all of those. Speaking of strategy, what do you
Speaker 3: think about Michael Saylor's comments about not learning the show
Speaker 3: truth on reserts.
Speaker 1: I think if people listen to the whole ten to
Speaker 1: fifteen minute response, it is very thoughtful and nuanced, meaning
Speaker 1: he's open to doing a zero knowledge proof potentially at
Speaker 1: some point where it masks the address. So I think
Speaker 1: there are are maybe not actual technical, physical so to speak, risk,
Speaker 1: but if you have bitcoin in a wallet and then
Speaker 1: that bitcoin moves, and you just have every single cyber
Speaker 1: hornet in the world just like well, that one coin
Speaker 1: moved and it's creating all this fud. I don't think
Speaker 1: that's helpful, even if it's not like an actual security risk,
Speaker 1: I don't I think that could turn into a really
Speaker 1: big kind of fud storm that nobody really needs. With
Speaker 1: that said, it certainly differentiates if Strategy is not going
Speaker 1: to do it, but metaplanet is doing it. You know,
Speaker 1: there's all of these different features that people can consider
Speaker 1: selling points. I guess you could say, yeah, that that
Speaker 1: kind of leads into.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's all kinds of unknown risks that
Speaker 3: we don't know about. You do you know some known risks?
Speaker 3: So for example, dustin attacks, right, So why I'm publicizing
Speaker 3: what those wallet addresses are, You're potentially setting yourself up
Speaker 3: some attacks that way. I think there's also potential treasury management.
Speaker 3: So you might not want to hold all five hundred
Speaker 3: and eighty thousand bitcoin in a single wallet. You might
Speaker 3: want twenty or two thousand wallets, and then you might
Speaker 3: decide you want four thousand wallets, and then you might
Speaker 3: decide you want to go to two thousand wallets again,
Speaker 3: and then every time you move those number one, how
Speaker 3: do you update people on four thousand wallets? Number two,
Speaker 3: to your point, are coin moves. Then does the market
Speaker 3: react to that, Oh my gosh, they're selling or whatever? Right,
Speaker 3: And so from a lot of perspectives, you could see
Speaker 3: plenty of readings why you wouldn't want to do that,
Speaker 3: as to why you would want to do that. What
Speaker 3: the people seem to be pretty upset about right now
Speaker 3: is it doesn't really align with the ethos or the
Speaker 3: ideology of bitcoin, because they should be not trusting, but verifying.
Speaker 3: Do you think that by showing proof of reserves though,
Speaker 3: it gives people a false sense of security because even
Speaker 3: if they see the bitcoin there, do they really have
Speaker 3: a claim to it? What other encumbrances could there be
Speaker 3: against that bitcoin? Where are they on the stack? So
Speaker 3: maybe it gives people even a false sense of security
Speaker 3: that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think those are all great points. And I mean,
Speaker 1: unless there's something that I'm not familiar with, all the
Speaker 1: ETPs all these corporate rappers, you don't have a coin
Speaker 1: on the bitcoin, maybe they'll be like kind of exchange
Speaker 1: on the eutpsys or a point. I'm sure there will be,
Speaker 1: whether it's six months or six years from now. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think they're they're all important considerations, and yeah, you
Speaker 1: don't want that proof of reserve stuff just constantly in
Speaker 1: the news cycle. That's probably not helpful. And to repeat
Speaker 1: what's been said for five years now, you should be self.
Speaker 2: Sovereign, you should have own bitcoin, you should have.
Speaker 1: Happen to cold storage. So I mean, is there some
Speaker 1: way that something's in like super deep cold storage. Like
Speaker 1: let's say you have a million bitcoin, you have one
Speaker 1: hundred thousand of it, one hundred thousand of it that
Speaker 1: like argue we are you're never going to touch, and
Speaker 1: it's in such deep cold storage that you can tell
Speaker 1: people what those wallets are. I'm not a security expert
Speaker 1: on that side of things. That's a terrible idea, but
Speaker 1: that's where my mind goes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned the self sovereign, just get your own
Speaker 3: bitcoin and put into cold stories. And so if you're
Speaker 3: really that much into the ideology, then maybe you should
Speaker 3: just buy your own bitcoin because there is counter party risk.
Speaker 3: It's inequity, right, it's not immutable. Yep. So you think
Speaker 3: you think there's sort of a mismatch of the buyer
Speaker 3: in the market where they want to align with somebody
Speaker 3: with like sovereign ethos, but at the same time they're
Speaker 3: buying inequity.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think that at all. Every time I
Speaker 1: see FUD, I just rationally try to think through it. Well,
Speaker 1: if somebody didn't like the stock, they would either not
Speaker 1: buy the stock or they would sell the stock. So
Speaker 1: if someone's out there being noisy on social media, what
Speaker 1: are they actually doing? Are they shorting the stock? Do
Speaker 1: they have friends that are shorting the stock? Or they
Speaker 1: get your money where your mouth is?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, if you just rationally think through it, it's.
Speaker 1: Like like, if there's rational objection or concerns or questions,
Speaker 1: that's one thing. But if someone's just like super hard
Speaker 1: fudding something, it's like, all right, you can be spend
Speaker 1: your whole life being upset about stuff. And I've gone
Speaker 1: through that, right, I'm like, stop talking about the ATM
Speaker 1: like and but it's it's just not you kind of
Speaker 1: have to stay focused and guard time.
Speaker 2: Guard your energy.
Speaker 3: Now, what about Like most bitcoinners are hoddlers, right, so
Speaker 3: they're long term thinkers. We understand bitcoin is going to
Speaker 3: go a lot over a long period of time, but
Speaker 3: a lot of people in the equity space seem to
Speaker 3: be more in a trader mentality. I've been approached by
Speaker 3: countless people, as I'm sure you have as well, just
Speaker 3: at this event where like I think I'm gonna sell
Speaker 3: micro Strategy and roll into X y Z. What do
Speaker 3: you think about that?
Speaker 2: What do you say to that? Yeah, so what are
Speaker 2: you optimizing for?
Speaker 1: Again, whether it's micro Strategy versus Metaplanet, Metaplanet versus the
Speaker 1: next thing? I like, But that's a speculative or trading
Speaker 1: sort of mentality, which is fine, but I think you
Speaker 1: should recognize that's what you're doing, unless you're going to say, hey,
Speaker 1: I understand and appreciate what strategy is doing, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to hold this long term, whether it's over a
Speaker 1: year for tax purposes, ten fifteen, twenty years, like what
Speaker 1: happens after the accumulation phase, and so there's been some
Speaker 1: announcements and talk about that as far as how to
Speaker 1: yield or whatever, and hopefully without a lot of reasonable
Speaker 1: counterparty risk or within the bitcoin ecosystem, like what happens
Speaker 1: when there's products and services or you know, whether it's
Speaker 1: you know and no strategy just is pounding the table
Speaker 1: and they're not going to become a bank. But like
Speaker 1: whether it's banking or insurance or other services and Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's I guess my view on where all this is going.
Speaker 1: And Ben Work's talk to a lot about that of like, hey,
Speaker 1: there's there's He kind of thinks there's two phases. There's
Speaker 1: the accumulation and then you become the Bank of England
Speaker 1: and then you can do whatever you want.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would probably say Sailor might become the most
Speaker 3: wealthy man in the world, not because he's trading Strategy stock. Yep,
Speaker 3: he's owning it right jet basis because why those guys
Speaker 3: that wor holding Amazon stock not trading it And so
Speaker 3: it's like sort of allocating and sort of way in
Speaker 3: that long term period. Let's switch scares a little bit.
Speaker 3: So I know, you know you're you're sort of the
Speaker 3: pretty girl to dance right now, everyone's talking to you.
Speaker 3: One of the things that you're doing is talking to
Speaker 3: other companies that might be considering doing these treasury strategies
Speaker 3: and things like that. What type of companies do you
Speaker 3: think are sort of in the sweet spot to do this,
Speaker 3: and how would you advise them to go about launching
Speaker 3: one of these.
Speaker 1: I think any company that has the right leadership is
Speaker 1: in a great spot. I mean, you look at what
Speaker 1: Simon and Dylan and done with Metaplanet it was one hotel,
Speaker 1: So I don't I think it's industry specific. I think
Speaker 1: it's leadership specific. And I think the only thing you've
Speaker 1: been remotely close to advising anyone on is like you
Speaker 1: have your capital strategy, should probably have an attention strategy,
Speaker 1: a media strategy, because if you're not going to announce
Speaker 1: it really to the world and really put a spotlight
Speaker 1: on it, right and not like the crypto bros that
Speaker 1: are out pumping their coins for five minutes and they're
Speaker 1: really excited in their YouTube video and then it's over
Speaker 1: like that doesn't it's probably not a.
Speaker 2: Long term strategy.
Speaker 1: It's not credible, it's not durable. So yeah, just having
Speaker 1: the right leadership, and I mentioned this on the Live
Speaker 1: Desplaine Monday. I think there's a lot of opportunity for
Speaker 1: a lot of people that are either in media or
Speaker 1: want to have seat in this part in space to
Speaker 1: help these companies.
Speaker 2: Really with that.
Speaker 1: Digital distribution, because I don't think there's going to be
Speaker 1: many other CEOs that are either going to have the
Speaker 1: interest or a wherewithal to do what Salor's done for
Speaker 1: five years straight, which is due like a podcast a day,
Speaker 1: I might be being dramatic, but a podcast a week
Speaker 1: is probably understating it. Just pounding the table on bitcoin
Speaker 1: and messaging that conviction out to the market. So I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of opportunity for people on the
Speaker 1: podcast or media side to really helicopter themselves in, help them,
Speaker 1: help to bring out their story, their conviction and the
Speaker 1: personal side of the executives, and tell that story in
Speaker 1: all these different format lights, whether it's thirty seconds or
Speaker 1: three hours.
Speaker 3: Since I have a fun investor here, I have an
Speaker 3: actual treasury company here, Steven puts that back there, you're
Speaker 3: also working on the treasuries. Anybody want to ask any questions?
Speaker 3: Zach obviously analyzes these. Anybody want to, like, ask how
Speaker 3: many questions? Since we're kind of an informal thing. A
Speaker 3: lot of people showed up. Yeah please.
Speaker 5: So you mentioned a government regulation of the times, and
Speaker 5: I just wanted to ask you to see bitcoin and
Speaker 5: playing a major role in real estatee organization.
Speaker 1: I think the coin is going to play a big
Speaker 1: role in a lot of what people are thinking on
Speaker 1: the When they say tokenizing the world, to quote Larry
Speaker 1: Fink or blockchain, we're all about web three, blockchain tokenization,
Speaker 1: some other buzzword that like you can do so much
Speaker 1: on the blockchain and not just layer one that, as
Speaker 1: Sailor has said, is really going to be for nation
Speaker 1: states to settle on at a certain point here. But
Speaker 1: layer two, Layer three, layer four, Yeah, Like I don't
Speaker 1: know my personal but opinion is like they're just going
Speaker 1: to be a limited or no coin season, Like people
Speaker 1: are not rotating out of their black rock bitcoin etf
Speaker 1: into doge coin this time. So I think you'll see
Speaker 1: people will be surprised to see how much you can
Speaker 1: build within the bitcoin ecosystem. And I think that'll extend
Speaker 1: to every industry and quite in real estate.
Speaker 3: And what I would add on to that is that
Speaker 3: if you think about tokenizing real estate, so if we
Speaker 3: break that down, what does that even me? So token
Speaker 3: would be like a fractional ownership unit piece of real estate,
Speaker 3: sort of like if I have an LLC and people
Speaker 3: buy shares, So like we already do fractionalize ownership of
Speaker 3: real estate, whether I call it a share or a token,
Speaker 3: Like what's the difference? That's number one? Number two, I
Speaker 3: don't think it makes a lot of sense to try
Speaker 3: to tokenize a physical asset into a virtual asset. So
Speaker 3: bitcoin is a bear and right, it's tokenized energy basically
Speaker 3: that I can have and I can keep. But real
Speaker 3: estate is just real estate. It's a physical asset, right,
Speaker 3: So I don't really see any advantage. All of this
Speaker 3: is like, really add friction to the transaction, add liquidity?
Speaker 3: How How I don't I don't see it adding liquidity.
Speaker 3: I think there's specifically in real estate. I think there's
Speaker 3: a really big problem with that. Is that in order
Speaker 3: for things to go from a collected so money has
Speaker 3: an evolutionary process from a collectible to a store, a
Speaker 3: valuage or medium exchange and events to create account. Now
Speaker 3: what happens is it has to have the right attributes
Speaker 3: in order to scale that evolutionary process. So to go
Speaker 3: from a store of value like a piece of real
Speaker 3: estate is to become a medium exchange. To have liquidity,
Speaker 3: it has to have the right attributes portable, durable, divisible, recognizable, fundable, saleable,
Speaker 3: et cetera. So homes are not fungible. So one unit
Speaker 3: of a four plex in Indianapolis, how do I value
Speaker 3: that against the unit of single families? Reveget to bath
Speaker 3: in Tampa, Miami, or Lando, right, and so I don't
Speaker 3: see it crave more liquid market. But even if it does,
Speaker 3: we don't need bitcoin or a blockchain to do that.
Speaker 3: We can already do that. We have all types of
Speaker 3: fractionized ownership those d platforms that are out there right
Speaker 3: now today, so you can already do it. You can
Speaker 3: already buy a fractional owney with real estate. So I
Speaker 3: don't see how bitcoin at all, much less a token
Speaker 3: would help that necessarily.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Timmy, your thoughts on it seems to me whether
Speaker 6: it's any land or buying series trying to erry cash
Speaker 6: flower than users investing.
Speaker 3: Balls that did not go so well.
Speaker 5: Given the headitors that we.
Speaker 4: Can face over time for a while, they're generally above
Speaker 4: the cash flow starving series of cat pecks.
Speaker 3: And just revestigators up my edge.
Speaker 7: One seems to me this whole bitcoin treasure strategy, which
Speaker 7: company can differentially on them all the rest can become
Speaker 7: like for sure half the very flow ready to labor
Speaker 7: a series cash flow to then just.
Speaker 4: Keep deploying it, not just relo on the counter markets.
Speaker 4: You see any companies out there or you're ready to
Speaker 4: take advantage and that ortryrapic model or mid sized companies
Speaker 4: in the area have that as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 1: I've been approached by private companies that they're like, hey,
Speaker 1: we own a bunch of well known franchises, right, dozens
Speaker 1: of them, hundreds of them. We want to do the
Speaker 1: treasury strategy. We don't know how to do it. I
Speaker 1: guess the paradox is, if you're a mag seven or
Speaker 1: even a reasonably successful company, as sale Or says, you
Speaker 1: might not have that that need to know.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think it.
Speaker 1: Really just comes down to leadership, and it'll be interesting
Speaker 1: to see what these inflection points are to where is
Speaker 1: it the shareholder pressure, the societal kind of media pressure
Speaker 1: that has some of these mag seven or larger cup
Speaker 1: firms put like a small amount of bitcoinn of their
Speaker 1: balance sheet just to kind of appease everybody, because it
Speaker 1: becomes so de risked that they're like, yeah, sure, I
Speaker 1: believe Salon normal Isaac Burn like your softboorder finally changes
Speaker 1: their mind boats yes, or Apple supposed to might putting
Speaker 1: up the promises as well. Yeah, so yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: that's the paradox you could say is the companies that
Speaker 1: are the most successful don't have a need to know,
Speaker 1: similar to you know the great things that L. Salbador
Speaker 1: has done, just right, just keep stacking.
Speaker 3: But do you think it also works better with small
Speaker 3: companies because when you're a big company like a Seer's
Speaker 3: or an Apple, I mean, even if you put ten
Speaker 3: percent of your balance sheet into bitcoin, what is that
Speaker 3: really going to do to the overall market cap?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that's the answer to a common question
Speaker 1: is is a company going to catch strategy? Well, sure,
Speaker 1: if you have enough cash or it can raise enough cash,
Speaker 1: we can probably match their holdings potentially, But you're gonna
Speaker 1: be as leveraged as they are because you if you're
Speaker 1: an Apple, you have such a huge operating business that
Speaker 1: is just not the same amount of leverage of bitcoin
Speaker 1: versus operating Yeah.
Speaker 8: One of the comments gave up, you know is that
Speaker 8: MS trying to say, well, you know, it's company as
Speaker 8: anology straight for a you know, actual margin. There's I
Speaker 8: kind of see that playing out of work here.
Speaker 6: Or you know there's some company that trade.
Speaker 7: Out you know seventy nine to ten times.
Speaker 6: And ap allustrated two or three or ale, you know,
Speaker 6: the company that are off by the company a little
Speaker 6: rednap versus using that's accountal A big.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I might need an
Speaker 1: actual analyst or quant It's not you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: I'm not that deep on that side of it, but
Speaker 1: I think it take a lot of analysis to just,
Speaker 1: you know, what's the upside to just buying bitcoin versus
Speaker 1: if I can acquire a company? What all does that
Speaker 1: bring to the table, X, Y, and z as far
Speaker 1: as the bitcoin, the operating business, the leverage ratio and like,
Speaker 1: will that you know, if you're if you're still in
Speaker 1: kind of an up grinding up market, like, does that
Speaker 1: give you more opportunity over that sort of.
Speaker 2: Short to medium timeframe?
Speaker 3: Is it sort of the bitcoin torque number?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: So it's like if I deploy a dollar, how much
Speaker 3: bitcoin growth do I get from that? So what's my
Speaker 3: torque number versus if I go out and buy the
Speaker 3: other company?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: And I guess you'd compare those two. Thanks for the
Speaker 3: small little group of friends in family they game to
Speaker 3: show up for this. Uh, thanks very thanks for coming
Speaker 3: rob it up.
Speaker 2: Thanks for the invice is great.
Speaker 3: Yeah,