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Speaker 1: They're literally just putting more and more of the best

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Speaker 1: collateral humanities ever known on their balance sheet. Most people

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Speaker 1: in traditional media they can't explain to you what micro

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Speaker 1: Strategy is even doing.

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Speaker 2: They may not even appreciate.

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Speaker 1: Everybody wants to pay their bills and get ahead and

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Speaker 1: provide a great future for themselves and their family. Back

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Speaker 1: in the day when people were stockpiling gold, there were

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Speaker 1: companies that did that. The most successful event in England

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Speaker 1: became the Bicker of England.

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Speaker 3: The very nature of the business is to leverage it.

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Speaker 3: Most of them are trying to earn more bitcoin per share.

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Speaker 3: But if you don't understand what the target is, then

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Speaker 3: how do you really value? Do you find most investors

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Speaker 3: have a hard time trying to figure that out. I mean,

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Speaker 3: all right, well, let's just talk about the talk of

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Speaker 3: the town here, not you, even though you are the

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Speaker 3: talk of the town, being the bitcoin tratury space. You've

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Speaker 3: obviously started a couple of shows talking about it, sort

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Speaker 3: of rose to fame, sort of with sort of the

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Speaker 3: micro Strategy True North kind of group, if you will.

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Speaker 3: So let's talk about that. Let's start with, first of all,

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Speaker 3: what do you see as the difference between companies that

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Speaker 3: put bitcoin on the balance sheet versus bitcoin treasury strategy companies.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think you kind of just made the differentiation,

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Speaker 1: which is like, you can just put bitcoin on your

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Speaker 1: balance sheet, right, you have cash coming in, you don't

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Speaker 1: need all of it. You can buy some bitcoin, it's

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Speaker 1: on your balance sheet. That's one strategy as opposed to

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Speaker 1: really using the capital markets, engaging the capital markets, and

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Speaker 1: issuing additional equity, issuing debt, issuing other instruments like preferred stock,

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Speaker 1: to really aggressively build that bitcoin treasury on your balance sheet.

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Speaker 1: So until this conference, I feel like I just kept

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Speaker 1: kind of saying in different interviews that you can just

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Speaker 1: have to coron the balance sheet, or you can do

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Speaker 1: the lbe leverage bitcoin equity strategy or engaging the capital markets,

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Speaker 1: however you want to say it, being more aggressive. Some

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Speaker 1: people don't like the word playbook, but the micro strategy playbook,

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Speaker 1: like that's the strategy. But how else are you going

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Speaker 1: to differentiate? And it was really just maybe different operating businesses,

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Speaker 1: like we're a healthcare company, that's the operating business, or

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Speaker 1: we're a BIAI, that's our operating business. And I think

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Speaker 1: what we saw this week was what Matt Cole said

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Speaker 1: with alpha and beta of like actually trying to not

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Speaker 1: just do the capital markets activity, but almost in a

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Speaker 1: hedge fund sort of operating style, go identify other ways

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Speaker 1: to buy bitcoin or basically arbitrage your way into more

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Speaker 1: bitcoin through those opportunities, and that could be the business.

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Speaker 1: And now I'm hearing conversations of especially as they pop

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Speaker 1: up in other international markets. I mean, if you can

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Speaker 1: only go to finance or a startup in a certain jurisdiction,

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Speaker 1: maybe that bitcoin treasury company can have a different, differentiated

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Speaker 1: operating business by launching an OTC desk or doing structured products,

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Speaker 1: like just having an operating business that makes sense for

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Speaker 1: that market and provides those products and services, but as importantly,

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Speaker 1: keep it bitcoin branded, in the same way that Metaplanet

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Speaker 1: now is going to do the Metaplanet bitcoin hotel instead

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Speaker 1: of just we have one hotel. I've got to keep

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Speaker 1: it on brand and keep it bitcoin.

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Speaker 3: So then companies that are putting bitcoin on the balance

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Speaker 3: sheet not so attractive, like cool, we have money, you

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Speaker 3: have a balance sheet, that money's parked in different things.

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Speaker 3: You put it in bitcoin, oh well, versus leveraging the

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Speaker 3: ballot sheet and the business the revenue of the business

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Speaker 3: to then engineer more bitcoin. That's the big differentiator. What

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Speaker 3: would you say is the biggest misconception most investors have

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Speaker 3: when taken and look at these types of companies.

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Speaker 1: I mean most people in traditional media, whether it's CNBC

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Speaker 1: or beyond. I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular.

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Speaker 1: They probably couldn't even pick on them all. They can't

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Speaker 1: explain to you what micro Strategy is even doing. They

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Speaker 1: may not even appreciate bitcoin, and so I think it's

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Speaker 1: really there's so many different doors that you can come into,

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Speaker 1: whether it's the bitcoin door, or whether it's you know,

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Speaker 1: somebody tells their buddy, Hey, there's this mstr metaplant sort

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Speaker 1: of stock that's just going vertical during certain periods of time, right,

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Speaker 1: not financial advice, and they're like, oh right, it's everybody

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Speaker 1: wants to make money. Everybody wants to pay their bills

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Speaker 1: and get ahead and provide a great future for themselves

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Speaker 1: and their family. So I just think we're that early

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Speaker 1: that even talking to some of the employees and executives

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Speaker 1: at game Stop at not steak and Shake, No, it

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Speaker 1: is steak and Shake.

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Speaker 2: A couple hours ago, I was saying.

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Speaker 1: One of the places in New York that does burgers,

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Speaker 1: but it's not Steak and Shake.

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Speaker 2: I was getting all mixed up.

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Speaker 1: But they are doing these announcements, but internally, I don't

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Speaker 1: think they really expected, especially Steak and Shake, like such

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Speaker 1: a reception, such a loyal audience. And I mean they're

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Speaker 1: just like saying what every corporate executive has said, which

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Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense that hey, it's been overwhelming support,

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Speaker 1: you know, but if you are not already kind of

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Speaker 1: familiar with that appreciative of bitcoin as the asset, you

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Speaker 1: probably weren't expecting that, And so you're kind of scrambling

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Speaker 1: from a all sorts of different perspectives, whether it's operational

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Speaker 1: or media investor relations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of like

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Speaker 3: a traditional investor trying to understand what's going on in

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Speaker 3: this big renchursery strategy space and sort of bringing in

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Speaker 3: like maybe like a Warren Buffett or Benjamin Graham values

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Speaker 3: on type framework. So one thing I hear quite often

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Speaker 3: as soon as I talk about one of these things

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Speaker 3: is what's the underlying business model?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: But when you look at a company like MicroStrategy or

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Speaker 3: company like Metaplanet, the stock is the business model, right,

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Speaker 3: it is the product that they offer.

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Speaker 1: So we're seeing that now.

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Speaker 3: So those are some things. I'd also look at maybe

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Speaker 3: some of the metrics and how they're measured, right, So like,

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Speaker 3: for example, most of them are trying to earn more

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Speaker 3: bitcoin per share, but if you don't understand what the

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Speaker 3: target is, then how do you really value them? So

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Speaker 3: those are some of the things I was thinking about it.

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Speaker 3: Or why do some trade, like metaplanic trade is such

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Speaker 3: a high valuation compared to a mind strike? Do you

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Speaker 3: find most investors have a hard time trying to figure

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Speaker 3: that out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean even members of True North that they spend

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Speaker 1: arguably twelve to sixteen hours a day studying this stuff.

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Speaker 2: And they range from.

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Speaker 1: Guys that are still in college to guys that could

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Speaker 1: be my dad. I'm forty three.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: It's so brand new that any certain aspect to it

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Speaker 1: that's not appreciated can kind of throw you off. So

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Speaker 1: people are like, oh, it's just the stock and it's

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Speaker 1: this flywheel and it's not sustainable. But if you understand

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Speaker 1: that bitcoin is pristine collateral and that that's literally within

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Speaker 1: a twenty four hour period, if you're selling stock and

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Speaker 1: turning right around and buying bitcoin with it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: compare that to real estate or building a hotel and

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Speaker 1: how long it takes to become profitable, to hold out

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Speaker 1: to be profitable from a cash flow perspective, or be

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Speaker 1: able to drop that down after all your expenses on

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Speaker 1: your balance sheet.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they're literally just.

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Speaker 1: Putting more and more of the best collateral humanities ever

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Speaker 1: known on their balance sheet. And one of the panels

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Speaker 1: over in a bitcoin inmesterday at Paris Blockchain we the

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Speaker 1: one guy said it really really well. Part of what

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Speaker 1: he said was back in the day when people were

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Speaker 1: stockpiling gold, there were companies that did that, and the

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Speaker 1: company that did that the most successfully event in England

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Speaker 1: became the Bank of England. Like that's where like if

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Speaker 1: you can really appreciate that, that's I think the foundation

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Speaker 1: of what If you're not appreciating that, it might be

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Speaker 1: really tough to kind of write then all the preferred

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Speaker 1: stock and all these other tickers and all these companies

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Speaker 1: and copycats and what everybody's chatting about. That kind of

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Speaker 1: that comes after understanding bitcoin and Christine collateral.

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Speaker 3: Do you think most people come into the space understand

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Speaker 3: bitcoin at that level.

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Speaker 2: No, we're all on a journey. Yeah, absolutely not.

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Speaker 3: I mean because if they're trying to get bitcoin for

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Speaker 3: shared you know, one of the things I hear I

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Speaker 3: want to ask you about is the risk in the market.

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Speaker 3: So we'll come to that. But in regards to the risk,

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Speaker 3: it's like what happens in a downturn? Well, if my

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Speaker 3: goal is to get more bitcoin for a share, what

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Speaker 3: is the downturn? Is my bitcoin going up? Because if

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Speaker 3: one bitcoin equals one bitcoin, if you're pricing it in bitcoin,

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Speaker 3: if on price in bitcoin, what downturn are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: And really digging into these companies.

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Speaker 1: So that's what these different groups and live streams of

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Speaker 1: podcasts are doing a great job just analyzing is what

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Speaker 1: what is the risk profile? Because during certain periods of time,

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Speaker 1: if something by definition starts with a lower market cap

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Speaker 1: and they're really being aggressive with their strategy, there's probably

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Speaker 1: going to be periods of help performance versus micro strategy

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Speaker 1: or versus right, So it is kind of like this,

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Speaker 1: you know coin, it's sort of a phenomenon, but with

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Speaker 1: bitcoin as far as these different corporate rappers, so that's

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Speaker 1: interesting and to say the obvious, not all of them.

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Speaker 1: We're going to be successful. We've already seen, right, won't

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Speaker 1: name names with There's already been companies that they did

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Speaker 1: the strategy and now you don't hear about them anymore

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Speaker 1: because they didn't go about it in.

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Speaker 2: The correct way. From a government standpoint, I'll just leave.

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Speaker 3: It at that.

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Speaker 5: Every day we see headlines about inflation and dead and

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Speaker 5: diminishing control over our own money. That's why I always

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Speaker 5: come back to bitcoin, because it's go for generations.

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Speaker 3: It's built for legacy.

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Speaker 5: But protecting your bitcoin legacy the right way is not

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's important to have the alignment throughout the governance

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Speaker 3: of that to do that, But let's take a look

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Speaker 3: at it. If we think about the companies again, like

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Speaker 3: micro strategy, you're a better planet if their ticker is

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Speaker 3: the product they're offering, then I would ask you the question.

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Speaker 3: Right now, a lot of people are saying, maybe this

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Speaker 3: is an over a zuber bubble. Maybe we're seeing this

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Speaker 3: rise too fast and the crash is coming. How many

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Speaker 3: of these types of companies do you think the market

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Speaker 3: could bear. I think the market can bear an infinite

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Speaker 3: amount of companies just putting bitcoin on the balance sheet

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Speaker 3: without taking on leverage. Certainly beyond that, I don't know

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Speaker 3: I think I don't know that micro Strategy would ever

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Speaker 3: do this. But let's say we go to get into

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Speaker 3: a bear market and there's a company that they have

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Speaker 3: ten bitcoin but they're trading at eight bitcoin. Well maybe

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Speaker 3: a company that's in a really strong position, like MicroStrategy

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Speaker 3: could just buy them for nine bitcoin and everybody's happy enough.

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Speaker 3: So I think they'll be kind of like what we're

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Speaker 3: seeing with the miners, some consolidation and some just all

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Speaker 3: of that different nuance of about activity and m and

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Speaker 3: a as we as.

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Speaker 2: Just is it of this break new future?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I mean we have thousands of financial products

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Speaker 3: in the market today, are tens of thousands of financial products,

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Speaker 3: and if you look at each one of them having

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Speaker 3: a little bit of a different strategy than you might

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Speaker 3: almost look at them as like an ETF, right, where

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Speaker 3: each one is just a little bit different. And there's

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Speaker 3: thousands of ETFs as well, but.

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Speaker 1: There shouldn't be thousands more. I mean, guys that we

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Speaker 1: all know and love in the space that have pioneered it,

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Speaker 1: I mean they've specifically said the comment, I don't know

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Speaker 1: why there aren't more ETFs and structured products like there's

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Speaker 1: just and it's hopefully it gets back to the foundational

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Speaker 1: education of bitcoin, like own bitcoin, go through that process

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Speaker 1: to really educate yourself on it as round yourself with

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Speaker 1: people that can help you with that. But whatever door

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Speaker 1: they come in through, great, right, it's all good for bitcoin.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So if they're like these ETFs, then there should

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Speaker 3: be even more of them, like you said, then, like

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Speaker 3: I said, there's maybe an infinite mouth that we can

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Speaker 3: absorb into the market. The problem will become how do

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Speaker 3: you get attention? So anyone can go watch an ETF.

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Speaker 3: I could do that. I've looked into it. How do

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Speaker 3: you get attention to that ETF? So we sort of

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Speaker 3: have this window and time right now where these companies

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Speaker 3: can sort of take advantage of that, but eventually the

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Speaker 3: law of doomision or turns will sort of diminish that.

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Speaker 3: So do you think this sort of irrational xuberance last

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Speaker 3: six months, twelve months, a year?

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Speaker 2: How does that take her off?

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Speaker 1: I know some guys are looking at it as it's

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Speaker 1: going to be the it's going to be the traditional cycle,

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Speaker 1: and you know, no matter what happens, you're going to

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Speaker 1: take a certain amount off the table, or at least

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Speaker 1: have that mindset of later this year, right is just

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Speaker 1: be really thoughtful about what you're doing if you're, you know,

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Speaker 1: wanting to get out of a position. But I think

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a longer I mean, just everything

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Speaker 1: from the US regulatory environment, the government, I mean, everything

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Speaker 1: seems to be setting up for the potential of the

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Speaker 1: price going quite a bit higher this year.

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Speaker 2: And into next year.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if the the US government or I saw

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Speaker 1: something on x about Adam back City's consulting and software

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Speaker 1: wealth funds. I mean, these things are happening. So if

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Speaker 1: they kind of stare step their way up the way

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Speaker 1: that we've heard for a while now the ten basis

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Speaker 1: points to one percent, two percent. Now you're hearing five percent,

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Speaker 1: and not just from the Kathy Woods of the world,

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Speaker 1: but from more and more, you know, the black Rock

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Speaker 1: saying one to two percent that keeps stair stepping its

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Speaker 1: way up. Then arguably we might make sense that the

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Speaker 1: price just stair steps its way up and it just

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Speaker 1: grinds up with volatility for a longer period and maybe

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Speaker 1: we see some sort of low offt top in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six. Yeah, nobody knows the future.

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Speaker 3: Nobody knows, but we do know cycles and we know

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Speaker 3: how they repeat it, so most likely until proved otherwise

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Speaker 3: they're going to repeat the nature of this business. If

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Speaker 3: we talk about the Treasury Strategy companies, the nature of

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Speaker 3: that business is leverage, right, leverage the balance sheet to

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Speaker 3: increase the bitcoin for a share. So the very nature

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Speaker 3: of the business is to leverage it. And then we

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Speaker 3: know humans then take things too far, so then naturally

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Speaker 3: some people are going to push it way too far.

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Speaker 3: And so we talk about sort of like the warm

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Speaker 3: buffet quote. Right when the tide goes out, we see

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Speaker 3: wo'swining naked. So a lot of people thought Sailor would

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Speaker 3: get liquidated in the last downturn. He built a balance

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Speaker 3: sheet in a way that he didn't. But some people

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Speaker 3: maybe won't do that. So I guess what would you say,

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Speaker 3: are some of the biggest risks or red flags that

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Speaker 3: you would look for in some of these companies going

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Speaker 3: into a downturn that might scare you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to your point, the leverage ratio super important.

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Speaker 1: Sale and Strategy very publicly said they're targeting a twenty

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Speaker 1: or thirty percent equity leverage point, So anyone that's maybe

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Speaker 1: above that, and again digging into the details, of it

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Speaker 1: technically was impossible. After Salem got the traditional bank loans

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Speaker 1: off of it balance sheet, it like it wasn't it's

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Speaker 1: not collateralized. There's no margin feature on any of this.

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Speaker 1: And so to the extent that companies can follow that playbook,

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Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, I think they'll be

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Speaker 1: in a better position than the people that are trying

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Speaker 1: to just make it up as they go and really

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Speaker 1: just view it more as a trade. And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think so.

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Speaker 3: The leverage is sort of the main thing you're looking for.

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Speaker 1: The leverage and what are the covenants, what are the

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Speaker 1: details about Like if bitcoin goes down to eighty thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: you know, do they need to sell some bitcoin? And

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Speaker 1: and again you know Strive and Knakamoto, right, David Bailey

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Speaker 1: and mac cole have both set publicly bitcoin per share.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna optimize for bitcoin per share and that could

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Speaker 1: mean buy bitcoin or selling bitcoin. They're super sharp people

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Speaker 1: in the industry.

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Speaker 2: I talked to you.

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Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, when you're a smaller player, and I

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Speaker 1: think Davids had said this right, when you're when you're

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Speaker 1: a smaller player, you can probably do that.

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Speaker 2: And you're not going to move the market.

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Speaker 1: But at a certain point, you know, they may just

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Speaker 1: by personal opinion, I think they may rethink that because.

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Speaker 2: Just the messaging. What do you think.

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Speaker 1: My thought is, when you're smaller, maybe it gives more

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Speaker 1: investor confidence that it's being actively managed. But when you

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Speaker 1: get to the point of like a strategy, and you

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Speaker 1: have half a million bitcoin or a million bitcoin, I

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Speaker 1: mean I feel like the messaging has to be that

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Speaker 1: you're not going to sell your bitcoin.

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Speaker 3: I think everyone's going to have their own strategy, and

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Speaker 3: that's why all these financial products will have a place

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Speaker 3: in the market. Right There's going to be a place

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Speaker 3: for all of those. Speaking of strategy, what do you

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Speaker 3: think about Michael Saylor's comments about not learning the show

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Speaker 3: truth on reserts.

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Speaker 1: I think if people listen to the whole ten to

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Speaker 1: fifteen minute response, it is very thoughtful and nuanced, meaning

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Speaker 1: he's open to doing a zero knowledge proof potentially at

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Speaker 1: some point where it masks the address. So I think

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Speaker 1: there are are maybe not actual technical, physical so to speak, risk,

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Speaker 1: but if you have bitcoin in a wallet and then

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Speaker 1: that bitcoin moves, and you just have every single cyber

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Speaker 1: hornet in the world just like well, that one coin

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Speaker 1: moved and it's creating all this fud. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's helpful, even if it's not like an actual security risk,

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Speaker 1: I don't I think that could turn into a really

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Speaker 1: big kind of fud storm that nobody really needs. With

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Speaker 1: that said, it certainly differentiates if Strategy is not going

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Speaker 1: to do it, but metaplanet is doing it. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's all of these different features that people can consider

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Speaker 1: selling points. I guess you could say, yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: kind of leads into.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's all kinds of unknown risks that

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Speaker 3: we don't know about. You do you know some known risks?

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Speaker 3: So for example, dustin attacks, right, So why I'm publicizing

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Speaker 3: what those wallet addresses are, You're potentially setting yourself up

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Speaker 3: some attacks that way. I think there's also potential treasury management.

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Speaker 3: So you might not want to hold all five hundred

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Speaker 3: and eighty thousand bitcoin in a single wallet. You might

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Speaker 3: want twenty or two thousand wallets, and then you might

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Speaker 3: decide you want four thousand wallets, and then you might

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Speaker 3: decide you want to go to two thousand wallets again,

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Speaker 3: and then every time you move those number one, how

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Speaker 3: do you update people on four thousand wallets? Number two,

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Speaker 3: to your point, are coin moves. Then does the market

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Speaker 3: react to that, Oh my gosh, they're selling or whatever? Right,

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Speaker 3: And so from a lot of perspectives, you could see

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Speaker 3: plenty of readings why you wouldn't want to do that,

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Speaker 3: as to why you would want to do that. What

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Speaker 3: the people seem to be pretty upset about right now

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Speaker 3: is it doesn't really align with the ethos or the

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Speaker 3: ideology of bitcoin, because they should be not trusting, but verifying.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that by showing proof of reserves though,

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Speaker 3: it gives people a false sense of security because even

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Speaker 3: if they see the bitcoin there, do they really have

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Speaker 3: a claim to it? What other encumbrances could there be

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Speaker 3: against that bitcoin? Where are they on the stack? So

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Speaker 3: maybe it gives people even a false sense of security

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Speaker 3: that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think those are all great points. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: unless there's something that I'm not familiar with, all the

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Speaker 1: ETPs all these corporate rappers, you don't have a coin

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Speaker 1: on the bitcoin, maybe they'll be like kind of exchange

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Speaker 1: on the eutpsys or a point. I'm sure there will be,

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Speaker 1: whether it's six months or six years from now. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think they're they're all important considerations, and yeah, you

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Speaker 1: don't want that proof of reserve stuff just constantly in

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Speaker 1: the news cycle. That's probably not helpful. And to repeat

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Speaker 1: what's been said for five years now, you should be self.

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Speaker 2: Sovereign, you should have own bitcoin, you should have.

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Speaker 1: Happen to cold storage. So I mean, is there some

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Speaker 1: way that something's in like super deep cold storage. Like

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Speaker 1: let's say you have a million bitcoin, you have one

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand of it, one hundred thousand of it that

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Speaker 1: like argue we are you're never going to touch, and

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Speaker 1: it's in such deep cold storage that you can tell

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Speaker 1: people what those wallets are. I'm not a security expert

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Speaker 1: on that side of things. That's a terrible idea, but

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Speaker 1: that's where my mind goes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned the self sovereign, just get your own

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Speaker 3: bitcoin and put into cold stories. And so if you're

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Speaker 3: really that much into the ideology, then maybe you should

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Speaker 3: just buy your own bitcoin because there is counter party risk.

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Speaker 3: It's inequity, right, it's not immutable. Yep. So you think

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Speaker 3: you think there's sort of a mismatch of the buyer

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Speaker 3: in the market where they want to align with somebody

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Speaker 3: with like sovereign ethos, but at the same time they're

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Speaker 3: buying inequity.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think that at all. Every time I

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Speaker 1: see FUD, I just rationally try to think through it. Well,

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Speaker 1: if somebody didn't like the stock, they would either not

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Speaker 1: buy the stock or they would sell the stock. So

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Speaker 1: if someone's out there being noisy on social media, what

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Speaker 1: are they actually doing? Are they shorting the stock? Do

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Speaker 1: they have friends that are shorting the stock? Or they

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Speaker 1: get your money where your mouth is?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, if you just rationally think through it, it's.

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Speaker 1: Like like, if there's rational objection or concerns or questions,

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Speaker 1: that's one thing. But if someone's just like super hard

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Speaker 1: fudding something, it's like, all right, you can be spend

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Speaker 1: your whole life being upset about stuff. And I've gone

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Speaker 1: through that, right, I'm like, stop talking about the ATM

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Speaker 1: like and but it's it's just not you kind of

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Speaker 1: have to stay focused and guard time.

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Speaker 2: Guard your energy.

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Speaker 3: Now, what about Like most bitcoinners are hoddlers, right, so

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Speaker 3: they're long term thinkers. We understand bitcoin is going to

436
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 3: go a lot over a long period of time, but

437
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 3: a lot of people in the equity space seem to

438
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 3: be more in a trader mentality. I've been approached by

439
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 3: countless people, as I'm sure you have as well, just

440
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 3: at this event where like I think I'm gonna sell

441
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 3: micro Strategy and roll into X y Z. What do

442
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:42,360
Speaker 3: you think about that?

443
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: What do you say to that? Yeah, so what are

444
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 2: you optimizing for?

445
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: Again, whether it's micro Strategy versus Metaplanet, Metaplanet versus the

446
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 1: next thing? I like, But that's a speculative or trading

447
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: sort of mentality, which is fine, but I think you

448
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: should recognize that's what you're doing, unless you're going to say, hey,

449
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 1: I understand and appreciate what strategy is doing, and I'm

450
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: going to hold this long term, whether it's over a

451
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: year for tax purposes, ten fifteen, twenty years, like what

452
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 1: happens after the accumulation phase, and so there's been some

453
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 1: announcements and talk about that as far as how to

454
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: yield or whatever, and hopefully without a lot of reasonable

455
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: counterparty risk or within the bitcoin ecosystem, like what happens

456
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: when there's products and services or you know, whether it's

457
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 1: you know and no strategy just is pounding the table

458
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: and they're not going to become a bank. But like

459
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: whether it's banking or insurance or other services and Yeah,

460
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: that's I guess my view on where all this is going.

461
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: And Ben Work's talk to a lot about that of like, hey,

462
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: there's there's He kind of thinks there's two phases. There's

463
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: the accumulation and then you become the Bank of England

464
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: and then you can do whatever you want.

465
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would probably say Sailor might become the most

466
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 3: wealthy man in the world, not because he's trading Strategy stock. Yep,

467
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 3: he's owning it right jet basis because why those guys

468
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: that wor holding Amazon stock not trading it And so

469
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 3: it's like sort of allocating and sort of way in

470
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 3: that long term period. Let's switch scares a little bit.

471
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 3: So I know, you know you're you're sort of the

472
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 3: pretty girl to dance right now, everyone's talking to you.

473
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 3: One of the things that you're doing is talking to

474
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 3: other companies that might be considering doing these treasury strategies

475
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 3: and things like that. What type of companies do you

476
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 3: think are sort of in the sweet spot to do this,

477
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 3: and how would you advise them to go about launching

478
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 3: one of these.

479
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: I think any company that has the right leadership is

480
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: in a great spot. I mean, you look at what

481
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: Simon and Dylan and done with Metaplanet it was one hotel,

482
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 1: So I don't I think it's industry specific. I think

483
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: it's leadership specific. And I think the only thing you've

484
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: been remotely close to advising anyone on is like you

485
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: have your capital strategy, should probably have an attention strategy,

486
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: a media strategy, because if you're not going to announce

487
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: it really to the world and really put a spotlight

488
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: on it, right and not like the crypto bros that

489
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: are out pumping their coins for five minutes and they're

490
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: really excited in their YouTube video and then it's over

491
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: like that doesn't it's probably not a.

492
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: Long term strategy.

493
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: It's not credible, it's not durable. So yeah, just having

494
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: the right leadership, and I mentioned this on the Live

495
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: Desplaine Monday. I think there's a lot of opportunity for

496
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people that are either in media or

497
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: want to have seat in this part in space to

498
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: help these companies.

499
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 2: Really with that.

500
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: Digital distribution, because I don't think there's going to be

501
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: many other CEOs that are either going to have the

502
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: interest or a wherewithal to do what Salor's done for

503
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: five years straight, which is due like a podcast a day,

504
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: I might be being dramatic, but a podcast a week

505
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: is probably understating it. Just pounding the table on bitcoin

506
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: and messaging that conviction out to the market. So I

507
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of opportunity for people on the

508
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: podcast or media side to really helicopter themselves in, help them,

509
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: help to bring out their story, their conviction and the

510
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: personal side of the executives, and tell that story in

511
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: all these different format lights, whether it's thirty seconds or

512
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: three hours.

513
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 3: Since I have a fun investor here, I have an

514
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 3: actual treasury company here, Steven puts that back there, you're

515
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 3: also working on the treasuries. Anybody want to ask any questions?

516
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 3: Zach obviously analyzes these. Anybody want to, like, ask how

517
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 3: many questions? Since we're kind of an informal thing. A

518
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 3: lot of people showed up. Yeah please.

519
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 5: So you mentioned a government regulation of the times, and

520
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 5: I just wanted to ask you to see bitcoin and

521
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 5: playing a major role in real estatee organization.

522
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: I think the coin is going to play a big

523
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: role in a lot of what people are thinking on

524
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: the When they say tokenizing the world, to quote Larry

525
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 1: Fink or blockchain, we're all about web three, blockchain tokenization,

526
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: some other buzzword that like you can do so much

527
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: on the blockchain and not just layer one that, as

528
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 1: Sailor has said, is really going to be for nation

529
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: states to settle on at a certain point here. But

530
00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: layer two, Layer three, layer four, Yeah, Like I don't

531
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: know my personal but opinion is like they're just going

532
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: to be a limited or no coin season, Like people

533
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: are not rotating out of their black rock bitcoin etf

534
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: into doge coin this time. So I think you'll see

535
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: people will be surprised to see how much you can

536
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: build within the bitcoin ecosystem. And I think that'll extend

537
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: to every industry and quite in real estate.

538
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 3: And what I would add on to that is that

539
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 3: if you think about tokenizing real estate, so if we

540
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: break that down, what does that even me? So token

541
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 3: would be like a fractional ownership unit piece of real estate,

542
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 3: sort of like if I have an LLC and people

543
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: buy shares, So like we already do fractionalize ownership of

544
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 3: real estate, whether I call it a share or a token,

545
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 3: Like what's the difference? That's number one? Number two, I

546
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: don't think it makes a lot of sense to try

547
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 3: to tokenize a physical asset into a virtual asset. So

548
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 3: bitcoin is a bear and right, it's tokenized energy basically

549
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: that I can have and I can keep. But real

550
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 3: estate is just real estate. It's a physical asset, right,

551
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: So I don't really see any advantage. All of this

552
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 3: is like, really add friction to the transaction, add liquidity?

553
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 3: How How I don't I don't see it adding liquidity.

554
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 3: I think there's specifically in real estate. I think there's

555
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: a really big problem with that. Is that in order

556
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 3: for things to go from a collected so money has

557
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 3: an evolutionary process from a collectible to a store, a

558
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 3: valuage or medium exchange and events to create account. Now

559
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 3: what happens is it has to have the right attributes

560
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 3: in order to scale that evolutionary process. So to go

561
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: from a store of value like a piece of real

562
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 3: estate is to become a medium exchange. To have liquidity,

563
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 3: it has to have the right attributes portable, durable, divisible, recognizable, fundable, saleable,

564
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: et cetera. So homes are not fungible. So one unit

565
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 3: of a four plex in Indianapolis, how do I value

566
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 3: that against the unit of single families? Reveget to bath

567
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 3: in Tampa, Miami, or Lando, right, and so I don't

568
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 3: see it crave more liquid market. But even if it does,

569
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: we don't need bitcoin or a blockchain to do that.

570
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: We can already do that. We have all types of

571
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: fractionized ownership those d platforms that are out there right

572
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 3: now today, so you can already do it. You can

573
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 3: already buy a fractional owney with real estate. So I

574
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: don't see how bitcoin at all, much less a token

575
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: would help that necessarily.

576
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, Timmy, your thoughts on it seems to me whether

577
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 6: it's any land or buying series trying to erry cash

578
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 6: flower than users investing.

579
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: Balls that did not go so well.

580
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 5: Given the headitors that we.

581
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 4: Can face over time for a while, they're generally above

582
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 4: the cash flow starving series of cat pecks.

583
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 3: And just revestigators up my edge.

584
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 7: One seems to me this whole bitcoin treasure strategy, which

585
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 7: company can differentially on them all the rest can become

586
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 7: like for sure half the very flow ready to labor

587
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 7: a series cash flow to then just.

588
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 4: Keep deploying it, not just relo on the counter markets.

589
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 4: You see any companies out there or you're ready to

590
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 4: take advantage and that ortryrapic model or mid sized companies

591
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 4: in the area have that as well.

592
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.

593
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: I've been approached by private companies that they're like, hey,

594
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: we own a bunch of well known franchises, right, dozens

595
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: of them, hundreds of them. We want to do the

596
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: treasury strategy. We don't know how to do it. I

597
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: guess the paradox is, if you're a mag seven or

598
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: even a reasonably successful company, as sale Or says, you

599
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: might not have that that need to know.

600
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think it.

601
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: Really just comes down to leadership, and it'll be interesting

602
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: to see what these inflection points are to where is

603
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: it the shareholder pressure, the societal kind of media pressure

604
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: that has some of these mag seven or larger cup

605
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: firms put like a small amount of bitcoinn of their

606
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: balance sheet just to kind of appease everybody, because it

607
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: becomes so de risked that they're like, yeah, sure, I

608
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: believe Salon normal Isaac Burn like your softboorder finally changes

609
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: their mind boats yes, or Apple supposed to might putting

610
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: up the promises as well. Yeah, so yeah, I guess

611
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: that's the paradox you could say is the companies that

612
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: are the most successful don't have a need to know,

613
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: similar to you know the great things that L. Salbador

614
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: has done, just right, just keep stacking.

615
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 3: But do you think it also works better with small

616
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 3: companies because when you're a big company like a Seer's

617
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 3: or an Apple, I mean, even if you put ten

618
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: percent of your balance sheet into bitcoin, what is that

619
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: really going to do to the overall market cap?

620
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that's the answer to a common question

621
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: is is a company going to catch strategy? Well, sure,

622
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: if you have enough cash or it can raise enough cash,

623
00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: we can probably match their holdings potentially, But you're gonna

624
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 1: be as leveraged as they are because you if you're

625
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: an Apple, you have such a huge operating business that

626
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: is just not the same amount of leverage of bitcoin

627
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: versus operating Yeah.

628
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 8: One of the comments gave up, you know is that

629
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 8: MS trying to say, well, you know, it's company as

630
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 8: anology straight for a you know, actual margin. There's I

631
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 8: kind of see that playing out of work here.

632
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 6: Or you know there's some company that trade.

633
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 7: Out you know seventy nine to ten times.

634
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 6: And ap allustrated two or three or ale, you know,

635
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 6: the company that are off by the company a little

636
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 6: rednap versus using that's accountal A big.

637
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I might need an

638
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: actual analyst or quant It's not you know, I'm not

639
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: I'm not that deep on that side of it, but

640
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: I think it take a lot of analysis to just,

641
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, what's the upside to just buying bitcoin versus

642
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: if I can acquire a company? What all does that

643
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: bring to the table, X, Y, and z as far

644
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: as the bitcoin, the operating business, the leverage ratio and like,

645
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: will that you know, if you're if you're still in

646
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: kind of an up grinding up market, like, does that

647
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: give you more opportunity over that sort of.

648
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 2: Short to medium timeframe?

649
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 3: Is it sort of the bitcoin torque number?

650
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 4: Right?

651
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 3: So it's like if I deploy a dollar, how much

652
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 3: bitcoin growth do I get from that? So what's my

653
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 3: torque number versus if I go out and buy the

654
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: other company?

655
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 5: Right?

656
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 3: And I guess you'd compare those two. Thanks for the

657
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 3: small little group of friends in family they game to

658
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 3: show up for this. Uh, thanks very thanks for coming

659
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 3: rob it up.

660
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: Thanks for the invice is great.

661
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 3: Yeah,