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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Body parts found seemingly scattered,

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Speaker 1: some say dispersed intentionally across metro Milwaukee. Not just murder,

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Speaker 1: but careful dissection, human dismemberment tonight into the mind of

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Speaker 1: a human butcher. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. I want

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Speaker 1: to thank you for being with us. I've tried a

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Speaker 1: lot of homicides. I have investigated many, many more and

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Speaker 1: covered many many more. But dismemberment of the human body

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Speaker 1: is a whole another animal. Again, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. First of all, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 2: I'm April second, cuta Hey Police respond to a call

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Speaker 2: along Lake Michigan at Warnamont Park, a popular recreation area.

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Speaker 2: A parkgoer reports finding a severed human leg. According to

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Speaker 2: a post from Cuta Hay Sheriff's office, the limb was

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Speaker 2: found in or near the water east of the golf

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Speaker 2: course near the pump house. There are steep cliffs leading

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Speaker 2: to the shoreline in that area, and large numbers of

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Speaker 2: police canvas the area and kept away gawkers.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine that scene? Body parts found Around five

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Speaker 1: thirty pm, police responding to a call along Lake Michigan.

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Speaker 1: You know so often we cover cases where a jogger,

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Speaker 1: a walker finds a body. What about body parts? Straight

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Speaker 1: out to our guests, joining us to All Star panel

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Speaker 1: to make sense of what we're knowing right now. To

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Speaker 1: Bill Daily, former FBI investigator and expert in forensic photography,

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Speaker 1: Bill Daily, thank you for being with us. You know

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Speaker 1: I've seen many a gruesome crime scene, but body parts

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Speaker 1: is a whole another thing. You ever had a dismember body, Well.

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Speaker 3: Certainly I've covered those photos as being friends with a

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Speaker 3: photographer and having to prepare the background documentation in the laboratory,

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Speaker 3: So I am kind of familiar with the situation. And

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Speaker 3: I'm also familiar in answer to the fact that unfortunately

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Speaker 3: we've seen this happen here in our country before. It's

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Speaker 3: only about a month ago. We're in Suffolk County, New York.

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Speaker 3: Early morning schoolgoers through a park found a severed arm.

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Speaker 3: So unfortunately we're seeing this now happen in our country.

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Speaker 3: And why it's a phenomenon. Not saying these two are

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Speaker 3: connected anyway, but it's something that we're seeing happening. And

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Speaker 3: the question is why why are people driven to commit

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Speaker 3: if this is an act of murder? Why are they

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Speaker 3: commit act. Why are they forced to commit those acts?

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Speaker 1: Well, Number one, I can tell you this must Bill Daily.

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Speaker 1: It is an act of murder unless the person killed

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Speaker 1: themselves and severed their own body parts. But you've read

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Speaker 1: my mind, Bill Daly, because one of my big thoughts

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Speaker 1: is are dismemberments on the rise? Because in the last

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Speaker 1: month we've seen three separate dismemberment cases. I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: about justin Milwaukee. But you're absolutely corrected Alex's trestack. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be with you in just one moment, but

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Speaker 1: I want to follow up on what Bill Daley said

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Speaker 1: with doctor Eric easan Board certified forensic pathologist consultant. You

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Speaker 1: can find him on Insta Eric under a under Ethan,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Ason, thank you for being with us. When you

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Speaker 1: look at dismembered body parts, I'm very curious about what

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Speaker 1: you can learn from the actual severing marks. Can you

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Speaker 1: learn if it's from the person's severed by a saw,

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Speaker 1: a knife, a sort and we've had that before, a

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Speaker 1: machete type sword used in severance. And the reason I

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Speaker 1: ask is because certain tools actually have to be plugged

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Speaker 1: in at the time, which gives me another idea and

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Speaker 1: a clue as to where the dismemberment occurred.

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Speaker 4: Correct. It's called tool mark analysis.

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Speaker 5: And so what we do in the morgue is we'll

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Speaker 5: examine the remains initially and take photographs and do some

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Speaker 5: other examinations. We'll look at the edges of the bones

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Speaker 5: and try and look for what we call striations on

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Speaker 5: the bones, and then we refer to a forensic anthropologist

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Speaker 5: to do a better exam.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, doctor Ason, Remember we're just mere mortals. You're

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner when you say striation marks. The first

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Speaker 1: time I dealt with striation Marx st r Ia s

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Speaker 1: tra TiO is triation was with mollistics looking at these

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Speaker 1: triation marks on two bullets, the known bullet which you

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Speaker 1: fire at the crime lab and the unknown bullet which

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Speaker 1: is taken from a crime scene. You think you have

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Speaker 1: the murder weapon. You shoot a bullet through with that

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Speaker 1: murder weapon. Then go under a microscope and you see

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Speaker 1: wiggle lines and if they match, the two bullets match,

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Speaker 1: you know it's from that gun. SOS. Triation marks, in

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Speaker 1: my mind are tool marks left by a gun. So

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Speaker 1: what's a striation mark as it relates to a severed body.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get too deep in the woods here.

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Speaker 1: But I want to know the answer to that.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's said to be left by gun.

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Speaker 5: It would be left by the metal pieces of the

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Speaker 5: saw or the axe or possibly serrated knife or something

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Speaker 5: like that that when it goes through the bone is

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Speaker 5: going to lead the marks onto the bone, similar to

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Speaker 5: when a bullet goes through the barrel of a bone.

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Speaker 1: Right now, I understand. So it's the markings left on

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Speaker 1: the bone. See, I was thinking about looking at the

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Speaker 1: skin to see what kind of marking was left on

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Speaker 1: the skin if you can tell what tool was used.

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Speaker 1: But that's making much more sense to me. Because the

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Speaker 1: skin is suppliable, you can't get a good read on

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Speaker 1: the tool used you looking at the bone. Now I

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Speaker 1: get it. The markings left on the bone will tell

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Speaker 1: you what type of tool was used. If you can

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Speaker 1: figure that out, it helps you figure out where the

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Speaker 1: dismemberment occurred. Okay, I am getting wait, defcom four here

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Speaker 1: on the striation marks on bones when you look at

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Speaker 1: a dismembered body. But let's get back to this. Hey,

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Speaker 1: Bill Daie, a former FBI investigator and renowned forensic photography expert.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the first dismembered body you photographed.

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Speaker 3: I actually do remember seeing those first photos. That was

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Speaker 3: in a mob type of style hit, and certainly it

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Speaker 3: was a message that was being sent to other mobsters,

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Speaker 3: so I do remember it.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's curious because I bet everybody on this

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Speaker 1: panel remembers the first time they saw a dead body.

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Speaker 1: I do the first time I saw an autopsy photo.

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Speaker 1: It sticks with you forever. So my point is to

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Speaker 1: Alexis Tereschuk joining me crimeonline dot Com investigative reporter, can

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Speaker 1: you imagine the person that comes upon an actual body part,

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Speaker 1: not a picture, not a depiction, not a description written

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Speaker 1: a police report, the real thing. Now, how there's a

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Speaker 1: series of three sets of body parts found, some say strode,

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Speaker 1: some say intentionally placed across Milwaukee. Tell me about the

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Speaker 1: first set.

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Speaker 6: So the first thing that's found is a severed leg.

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Speaker 6: So not and again you were talking about bodies. This

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Speaker 6: isn't seeing your grandmother in the coffin at her funeral.

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Speaker 6: This is an actual, broken, torn apart leg found by

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Speaker 6: Lake Michigan. Which is if people aren't likeke Misha is

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Speaker 6: like an ocean. It is so big, so you think

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Speaker 6: did something wash up on the shore? Where did this

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Speaker 6: leg come from? But it wasn't eaten away or it

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Speaker 6: wasn't damaged too much. It was clearly identifiable as a leg.

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Speaker 6: So that is the first thing that hold on.

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Speaker 1: Got a question for you, Alexis you say, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's a severed leg, but you're saying it was in

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Speaker 1: good shape. For us in forensics, are you saying the

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Speaker 1: leg was still in good shape?

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Speaker 6: I am actually saying the leg was in good shape.

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Speaker 6: It wasn't unidentifiable. It was clearly a leg. It wasn't

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Speaker 6: something where you just found the phone.

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Speaker 1: That's important, Alexis that one phrase you used because when

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Speaker 1: you take this to a jury, you've got to be

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Speaker 1: able to determine how old. Let me rephrase how long

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Speaker 1: the person has been killed? Doctor Eric Esen, joining US

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Speaker 1: renowned medical examiner, Doctor Esen, we're using lay terms, Alexis

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Speaker 1: and I that the leg was in a good shape.

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Speaker 1: That's actually significant because you can date the time, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily within a thirty minute period, but how many days

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Speaker 1: have passed if the leg is still in good shape.

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Speaker 1: When you get a skeletonized bone, forget about it. You're

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Speaker 1: not going to be able to date the death. But

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Speaker 1: what can you learn from this one dismembered leg, and

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Speaker 1: this is critical to this case.

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Speaker 4: Well, with the skin intact and hopefully the muscle intact,

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Speaker 4: and hopefully the bone marrow would still be intact, you

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Speaker 4: can use that to run DNA testing and try and

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Speaker 4: match it with who the victim was. That's the important thing.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: When you get skeletonized remains that have been around for

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Speaker 5: a couple of years, it's more difficult to get a

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Speaker 5: DNA sample, but from this one you should be able

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Speaker 5: to get a pretty good sample and try and figure

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Speaker 5: out who this person was.

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Speaker 1: Also, you can determine when the murder occurred based on

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Speaker 1: the condition of the leg. If d comp has totally

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Speaker 1: set in, that gives me a timeline. If the leg

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Speaker 1: looks like it's fresh, for lack of a better term,

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Speaker 1: that gives me a timeline. Then I try to figure

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Speaker 1: out who's missing in that timeline. And can you tell

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Speaker 1: immediately looking at the leg, isn't this true? Doctor aasan

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Speaker 1: you can tell immediately whether it's a woman or a man,

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Speaker 1: an adult or a child the race. You can learn

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Speaker 1: so much. Yes, yes, Now that's compared to when you

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Speaker 1: find a skeletonized body part and you look at, say

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Speaker 1: a female, which is part of the leg or the tibia.

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Speaker 1: Can you look at a bone, a skeletonized bone, doctor,

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Speaker 1: and determine based on the leg bone alone, whether it's

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Speaker 1: a male or a female.

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Speaker 5: It'd be tough for me to do it, and so

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Speaker 5: we have special doctors known as forensic anthropologists that actually

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Speaker 5: examine bones. They only examine bones, and they'd be able

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Speaker 5: to handle something like that.

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Speaker 4: But I do know that gender determination you really need

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Speaker 4: a pelvis. It can be.

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Speaker 1: Done, yes, because the pelvis is shaped in a manner

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Speaker 1: where you can determine if the pelvis is fit to

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Speaker 1: have children. It's the only way I know how to

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Speaker 1: say it. Is there a better way to say that,

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Speaker 1: a more clinical way.

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Speaker 4: A wider birth canal possibly?

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, right, okay, I'm gonna stick with mine. If

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Speaker 1: you don't mind, you say potato, I'll say potato. Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace going forward, Alexis Touschuk back to you,

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Speaker 1: and remember we've got doctor John Delatory, Matthew Mangino, former

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Speaker 1: prosecutor now private lawyer Bill Dally, doctor Ethan jump in.

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Speaker 1: If you have a thought or a question, So, Alexis,

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Speaker 1: what is it a jogger, a walk who finds a

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Speaker 1: severed leg by Lake Michigan.

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Speaker 6: Right, just somebody that is in the park. This is

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Speaker 6: a public park, it's not a hidden area at all.

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Speaker 6: So just somebody out walking finds the leg and they

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Speaker 6: contact the local police immediately because it's, as I said,

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Speaker 6: clearly identifiable as a leg. It's not even a bone

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Speaker 6: and you would think, oh, maybe that's a dog bone

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Speaker 6: or coyote or something. It's an actual leg.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, Nancy, I would going back to your thought

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Speaker 3: before about identifying, you know, a leg like this, which

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Speaker 3: is which appears to be fairly recent, You don'tso to

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Speaker 3: be looking at things such as tattoos other markings on

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Speaker 3: the skin that may be still there that could give

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Speaker 3: an indication, as to USA suggested, any people who may

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Speaker 3: have been missing in and around that timeframe. So investigators

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Speaker 3: will start to look at those type of things. Certainly,

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Speaker 3: if the body part has a hand, maybe there are

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Speaker 3: rings or some other identifying marks that might be tied

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Speaker 3: back to perhaps some missing persons.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Alexis Tharaschuk. First, a severed leg washes up, well,

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Speaker 1: it's found, don't know if it washed up, but it's

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Speaker 1: found by Lake, Michigan. When I say wash up, Alexis,

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Speaker 1: I always think about Lacy Peterson and her unborn child, Connor,

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Speaker 1: because they washed up there at San Francisco Bay. You

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Speaker 1: and I covered that together. Now, three days after the

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Speaker 1: severed leg is discovered beside Lake Michigan, worst Nightmare, body

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Speaker 1: parts on a playground. This is three days after the

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Speaker 1: severed legas found.

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Speaker 6: Tell me exactly three days after the severed legas found,

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Speaker 6: they find there's a park where kids play, like playground

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Speaker 6: with jungle gym, and human remains are found in body part. Now,

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Speaker 6: the police have not said what this body part is,

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Speaker 6: but it was found in a part and it's about

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Speaker 6: ten miles away from where the first one was found.

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Speaker 6: But again, Milwaukee's a huge city. Ten miles isn't that far.

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Speaker 1: Two? Doctor John Delatory joining me, licensed psychologist who specializes

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Speaker 1: in forensic psychology, a Dutch Deleatory placing body parts at

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Speaker 1: a child's playground. First of all, I want to say,

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Speaker 1: don't you have a problem with that? But that's on

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Speaker 1: so many levels. You've got a murder obviously, you've got

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Speaker 1: a dismemberment, and you have the killer. That's why when

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Speaker 1: I hear scattered across Milwaukee. This isn't scattered scattered like

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Speaker 1: thrown out of the car, like litter or trash. This

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Speaker 1: is intentionally placed at a playground by someone that must

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Speaker 1: know children are going to find a body part.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, this is definitely intentional. I don't think that

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Speaker 7: there's there's a specific placement for these body parts. I

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Speaker 7: think this person wants to stroke fear in the community.

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Speaker 7: It's not enough to stroke fear within the victim. It's

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Speaker 7: more about also striking fear in the community for whatever

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Speaker 7: is is compelling this individual to engage in these behaviors.

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Speaker 7: But these are clearly designed to stroke a level of

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Speaker 7: fear within each community to as a secondary part of

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Speaker 7: whatever it is that this person is going through.

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Speaker 1: So I'm very curious. Earlier, Bill Daily, former FBI investigator,

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Speaker 1: sparked the question, are dismemberments on the rise? Here we

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Speaker 1: see someone murdering and dismembering. Now we've got two sets

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Speaker 1: of body parts. Are they connected? Are they the same person?

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Speaker 1: Are they two people? Are they more than two people? So,

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Speaker 1: Bill Daily, the fact that this person, and let's just hope,

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Speaker 1: is just one person, one killer at work dismembering the

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Speaker 1: mindset of placing the second set of body parts at

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Speaker 1: a playground. What do you make of that?

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Speaker 3: Bill, Yeah, Nancy, And I'm going to kind of borrow

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Speaker 3: a little bit from the people I know from the

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Speaker 3: FBI's behavioral analysis side of the house, you know. And

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Speaker 3: it goes to show you kind of that that depravity

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Speaker 3: and I think, you know, echoing what was just talked about.

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Speaker 3: You know, it goes to show you that someone wanted

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Speaker 3: to make this kind of splash, wanted to have this

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Speaker 3: kind of this this impression, this kind of fear that

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Speaker 3: is out there, or perhaps even showing that they themselves

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Speaker 3: are so powerful that they can do this, but doing

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Speaker 3: it too as a child's playground. And it does echo

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Speaker 3: what I just mentioned before about some young young children

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Speaker 3: going to school finding body parts in Stuffolk County, New York.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a certainly a life altering I'm sure

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Speaker 3: situation for those those those children. But also it sends

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Speaker 3: a fear through the community. People who go to parks,

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Speaker 3: people who go and go jogging, or send the children

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Speaker 3: off the play I mean, the thought that you can't

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Speaker 3: even send people off to a park without being you know,

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Speaker 3: faced with some heenous act is terribly disruptive and disappointing

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Speaker 3: to people in those communities.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Eric Keason, isn't it true that there are rapid

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Speaker 1: DNA tests that I think probably I most likely mitochondrial

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Speaker 1: DNA on the mother's side only that were used that

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Speaker 1: has been used for decades, for instance in war to

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Speaker 1: get an immediate, almost immediate ID. So it's not like

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Speaker 1: you've got to send off a DNA and wait for

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Speaker 1: three weeks to get an answer. You can get within

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Speaker 1: the same day a DNA answer. It's not one in

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Speaker 1: five million, but it's one in five thousand, you know

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Speaker 1: at worst. Isn't that true? Yes, you know, the aspect

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Speaker 1: of murder, dismemberment and then placing the body parts where

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Speaker 1: they will absolutely be found. Listen to this.

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Speaker 8: Within twenty four hours, police respond to another call about

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Speaker 8: the discovery of human remains on Saturday, just a few

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Speaker 8: blocks from the same West Side Milwaukee area as Friday's discovery.

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Speaker 8: Police set up a crime scent near a park around

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Speaker 8: seven to fifteen pm. The medical examiner arrives to remove

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Speaker 8: the body part. Police block off the area and canvas

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Speaker 8: Well pass midnight. According to neighbors.

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Speaker 1: Okay Alexis Terochuk, a third set three sets of body

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Speaker 1: parts found. Tell me about the third discovery.

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Speaker 6: The third discovery was in another park in the area.

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Speaker 6: So this is all south of Milwaukee, like the center

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Speaker 6: of the big city. Tons of parks, all on the

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Speaker 6: shore around the lake, which, as you're seeing in the map,

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Speaker 6: the lake is to the east of the city and

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Speaker 6: they're super close to each other, just blocks away from

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Speaker 6: each other. So now three times we found body parts.

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Speaker 6: There's the leg, then there's another site finding, then there's

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Speaker 6: another one after that.

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Speaker 1: Four total parts.

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Speaker 6: Human remains have been found, and they're not being identified

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Speaker 6: at all. So that's the thing. The police are keeping

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Speaker 6: this very close. They're not saying it was a hand.

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Speaker 6: They're not saying, you know, a torso, a chest, another arm,

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Speaker 6: another leg, none of that. The only thing that has

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Speaker 6: been identified is the leg. The rest of them called

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Speaker 6: human remains.

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Speaker 1: The third set of body parts found Curious Alexis Terschuk,

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Speaker 1: joining us Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. All three

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Speaker 1: sets of body parts were found in or near parks.

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Speaker 1: The first one it was a little mislading. Yes, it

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Speaker 1: was near Lake Michigan. We know that. We also know

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Speaker 1: it's very steep there where the body parts were found

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Speaker 1: going down to the water, but that was also near

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Speaker 1: Warnamont Park just by Lake Michigan. It was at Warnemont

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Speaker 1: Park near Lake Michigan.

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Speaker 6: The second set was found in a park just about

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Speaker 6: eleven miles away. This was the Playground Park. And then

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Speaker 6: two more are found really within you know, a triangle,

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Speaker 6: really an area where you know, two other parks. And

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Speaker 6: these aren't huge parks. It's not like a state park.

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Speaker 6: They're small neighborhood parks where things are found and that's

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Speaker 6: why they're found so quickly by people that are going

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Speaker 6: to them.

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Speaker 1: You mean parks is in jungle gym parks, Yes, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And that was important to me, Alexis because if you've

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Speaker 1: got an open park, which is basically green space, that's

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Speaker 1: one thing. But a park where you've got a merrygo

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Speaker 1: round or swings or jungle gym clearly meant for children

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Speaker 1: as opposed to just green space where you can walk around.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole another animal, right there. So three parks,

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Speaker 1: three parks, this is meant for children to find. The

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Speaker 1: by Lake Michigan at Warnemont Park, the second one, according

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Speaker 1: to my notes anyway, April five, The first is April two,

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Speaker 1: The second is April five, near North thirtieth and Lisbon Street.

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Speaker 1: The third one, as I recalled, not too far away,

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Speaker 1: a couple of blocks away at North thirtieth and Galena

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Speaker 1: West Galena Street. So all three actually at playgrounds, all

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Speaker 1: in little parks.

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Speaker 6: Somewhere they're not and they're in the neighborhoods. These aren't

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Speaker 6: huge rural areas. It's in the middle of the city

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Speaker 6: and the middle of neighborhoods, you know, small parks between houses.

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Speaker 1: Following the discovery of three sets of remains, a blanket

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Speaker 1: is found Listen Shade.

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Speaker 2: Robinson's family joins the searches near the playground over the weekend.

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Speaker 2: While police find unidentified human remains, Robinson's family discovers a

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Speaker 2: blanket belonging to Shawdeh. The distinct pink blanket pictures Shade

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Speaker 2: with her beloved dog, Coco Chanel, who passed away. As

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Speaker 2: more human remains are discovers, the family is losing hope

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Speaker 2: Shade will be found.

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Speaker 1: A lot Alexis Tereschuk. Soon after that, a car is

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Speaker 1: found burning and a blanket is found. I'm curious about

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Speaker 1: the blanket. Let's talk about the blanket. First, what is

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Speaker 1: the blanket?

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Speaker 6: The blanket has a young woman on it and with

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Speaker 6: a dog, and it looks to be like a tribute

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Speaker 6: to the dog that passed away. It's we're saying rest

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Speaker 6: in peace. And it's pink and it has a picture

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Speaker 6: the dog. Looks like the dog was named co Cokenel,

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Speaker 6: or maybe the girl is named Cokochnel. But this is

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Speaker 6: what it looks like, like a tribute to someone's beloved

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Speaker 6: pet that died. But they find this in the park.

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Speaker 6: It's dirty, it's in not good shape, and it's in

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Speaker 6: a park.

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Speaker 1: Alexis curious, is this blanket? And we actually have one

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Speaker 1: of these with our dog fat Boy and our cat

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Speaker 1: Cinnamon on it. The twins got it for Christmas. We

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Speaker 1: have a pit tribute blanket and the twins fight over it.

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Speaker 1: So was that blanket near what are the parts where

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Speaker 1: the body parts were found?

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Speaker 6: Yes, it was, and it's clearly a beloved pet.

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Speaker 1: It's pink.

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Speaker 6: It has a girl smiling on it. It's something that

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Speaker 6: somebody really loved.

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Speaker 1: Girl smiling on it. You know, curious right there, I'm

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Speaker 1: curious how you would approach this bill daily formally with

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Speaker 1: the FBI. You find a discarded blanket, filthy wet with

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Speaker 1: a pet on it. And let's see it again. Let

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Speaker 1: me see that blanket because I can see the face

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Speaker 1: of a woman on the top right near the body

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Speaker 1: parts where they were found. How do you go about

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Speaker 1: tracing this blanket and is it connected?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean there's really you know, several things you

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Speaker 3: can do. Someone take longer than others. I mean, you

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Speaker 3: can forensically start to treat that in the laboratory, you know,

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Speaker 3: look for traces of hairs or other fibers, or try

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Speaker 3: to identify who that person, who the owner was, And

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Speaker 3: you can also do things such as even using facial recognition,

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Speaker 3: you can scan the image of the face and compare

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Speaker 3: it to known databases to see if when pops up.

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Speaker 3: There's technology out there that allows law enforcement to search

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Speaker 3: publicly available databases like drivers license databases, etc. So you know,

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Speaker 3: some things you can start to do to try to

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Speaker 3: find out if they're interested in finding who the owner

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Speaker 3: of the blanket is, and it certainly sounds like it'd

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Speaker 3: be something you'd want to find out given some of

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Speaker 3: the other suspicious circumstances they're occurring around the city.

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Speaker 1: Then to add to the mystery a car set on fire. Listen.

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Speaker 9: Three days after missing Shoulday Robinson's car is found burning

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Speaker 9: in an alley near thirtieth and Lisbon Street. Milwaukee police

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Speaker 9: find an unspecified human body part Friday evening at a

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Speaker 9: playground just a block away. Over the weekend, authorities return

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Speaker 9: to the area to continue searching, focusing on the woods

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Speaker 9: and train tracks behind the park. An identify remains are

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Speaker 9: recovered both Saturday and Sunday.

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Speaker 1: Alexis Tereschuk a car on fire, and now we learn

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Speaker 1: that that car belongs to who.

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Speaker 6: Shaw Dave Robinson. She is nineteen years old. She is

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Speaker 6: still in high school, but she's taking classes at the

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Speaker 6: local technical college. She's about to graduate. She has a

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Speaker 6: full time job. She is working at a pizza place

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Speaker 6: right near her house. And the car belongs to her,

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Speaker 6: and it is found one block away from the park,

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Speaker 6: one of the parks where the human remains were found.

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Speaker 6: It is burned from the inside, something that the police

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Speaker 6: have noticed. They said it wasn't something outside didn't catch

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Speaker 6: the car on fire. It burned from the inside, which

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Speaker 6: led them to think that obviously something very bad had

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Speaker 6: happened and somebody had set this fire inside. The car,

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Speaker 6: and she is missing.

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Speaker 1: To Matthew Mangina, joining US high profile lawyer out of

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Speaker 1: Lawrence County, Pennsylvania and author of The Executioners Matthew Me

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Speaker 1: and Gino. Tracking a car usually isn't an easy matter

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Speaker 1: because there's a vent VIN number that's etched really on

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Speaker 1: a metal plate inside the car, and you can trace

433
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 1: that VENT. It's like a fingerprint, and unless it's been

434
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: tampered with, like the vent's replaced, you can tell who

435
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: bought it. And then the chain of custody of that

436
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: has been sold and resold through insurance records and DMV records.

437
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: So that's an easy matter. But this brings a whole

438
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: nother level to it. Of arson. You know, I tried

439
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: a lot of arson cases, and first you have to

440
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: prove there was a crime to start with, and that

441
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: it wasn't an accident, and that can be a herculean

442
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: task at times very difficult. Then once you prove it's

443
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: a crime, you got to prove who did it. But

444
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: if these are connected, you've got a person who is

445
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: responsible for three sets of body parts, you've got a

446
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: missing high school girl, and you've got a car set

447
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: on fire. Right now, I think some of the best

448
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: evidence is what we're going to find in that car.

449
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 10: Well, yeah, I mean certainly the police are going to

450
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 10: scour that vehicle for any evidence that they can find,

451
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 10: you know, But when we start to put these pieces together,

452
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 10: we have a missing person, we have her vehicle which

453
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 10: has been set a fire, and then you know, we

454
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 10: know that through searching the area where these body parts

455
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 10: were found, that a blanket which can identifies Chardai in

456
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 10: this park. So now we're starting to get a bigger

457
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 10: picture of what's going on here.

458
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 4: You know, she's.

459
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 10: Missing, her family is worried about her. Her family is

460
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 10: really in a position where they're saying, you know, maybe

461
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 10: the worst has happened here. The police have to match

462
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 10: these body parts with Charda or whoever they may be

463
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 10: in order to bring this together as a homicide.

464
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got quite a bit of circumstantial evidence

465
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: linking all of these facts. You've got a missing high

466
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: school girl. You've got body parts, which, of course, according

467
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: to doctor Eric asen By, now they can determine is

468
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: a female. And you've got this blanket, You've got the

469
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: car body parts, we know it's a female. All in

470
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: close proximity to doctor John Delatory joining us, a renowned

471
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: psychologist who specializes in forensic psychology. Doctor Delatory, I was

472
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: just mentioning that my children have one of those pet

473
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: tribute blankets, and for that blanket to be found filed

474
00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: the discarded wet out in some playground, that would be

475
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: highly unusual. And we've seen blankets, personal blankets attached to

476
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: a lot of cases. Just for an example, Kelly Anthony

477
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: was buried or not really buried, just thrown away like

478
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: trash by her mother, top mom. Casey Anthony with her

479
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: favorite blanket, And I could list many many more cases

480
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: where a personal blanket a blanket, not something else, a

481
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: blanket is with the dead body. And here we're finding

482
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: her personal blanket with her face on it, for Pete's sake,

483
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: near body parts. So in my mind they absolutely are connected. Yeah,

484
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: they could be.

485
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 7: Here's what I would say is that the placement of

486
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 7: the blanket will tell us a lot about why that

487
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 7: blanket is there.

488
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 4: So if it's laid out like that.

489
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 7: Where it's clear that you can see her face on there,

490
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 7: then I think the person that put it there is

491
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 7: trying to tell us that these are who the body

492
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 7: parts belonged to. If the blanket was maybe crumpled up

493
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 7: and maybe someone just kind of extended the blanket, I

494
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 7: think that's probably trying to tell us that this person

495
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 7: was discarded the same way that the blanket was discarded.

496
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 7: So how the blanket was found tells us more about

497
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 7: who put it there than I think probably most people would.

498
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: Consider crime stories with Nancy Grace. You know another issue,

499
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: Alexis Tereschuk, we were all on pins and needles trying

500
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: to find Gabby Petito and her family told us Alexis

501
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: that they had received several unusual texts that didn't seem

502
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: to because coming from her. For instance, one of them

503
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: referred to her grandfather by his proper name. Who does that?

504
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: Like if I sent a text regarding my mom, I

505
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: would say, hey, where's mother? I wouldn't say where is

506
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Stokes Grace? I wouldn't say that. And in this case,

507
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: Chade's mother, Sheena Scarborough, states that she got a very

508
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: odd text from her daughter just before these remains were discovered,

509
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: asking her mom because she had fifteen dollars and she

510
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't do that, Like my children wouldn't do that because

511
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: they have a bank card connected to me and a

512
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: credit card connected to me. They don't have to call

513
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: me if they want to drive through McDonald's and get

514
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: a quarter pounder. So the mom immediately knew, Okay, that's weird.

515
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: She knew something was wrong. Why do I care, Alexis

516
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: because to me, that starts the timeline right there.

517
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 6: And so at the same time she had been reported

518
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 6: missing but not showing up for work. She always showed

519
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 6: up for work. She was very reliable. She was a

520
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 6: very responsible young woman, balancing school, two schools really and work.

521
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 6: And so then her mom gets a text message saying

522
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 6: I need fifteen dollars. And that's such a strange amount.

523
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 6: I mean fifteen dollars. Maybe the person you know at

524
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 6: work could give you fifteen dollars if he needed fifteen dollars.

525
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 6: So she was very suspicious about it. And that is

526
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 6: around the same time that her coworkers are reporting that

527
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 6: she did not show up for her shift, which was

528
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 6: completely out of character for.

529
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: Her Bill Daily. I can't stress enough how important a

530
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: timeline is because that could rule in or rule out

531
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: potential suspects. For instance, if I think I've got a suspect,

532
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: and I know what time that unusual text was what

533
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: if my suspect is out of town or at work,

534
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: clot Den, then that suspect is out. So you know,

535
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: there are a lot of ways to look at it.

536
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: But here's an example, and timeline start in very unusual

537
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: ways for INSTIs here's a high profile timeline start. Do

538
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: you remember in the OJ Simpson the prosecution neighbors heard,

539
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: as they put it, a plaintive well from the dog akda.

540
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: They had never heard it before. It's like the dog

541
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: was crying and screaming at the same time. They had

542
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: never heard that. And I'm telling you that marked the

543
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: beginning of the timeline in that case. About right then

544
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: OJ Simpson was running back to his Bronco to get

545
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: get away from the crime scene. And Simpson, if you disagree,

546
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: come on and explain to me what really happened that

547
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: night and subject yourself to my cross examination. So what

548
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: I'm saying is that text right there could mark the

549
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: beginning of this timeline.

550
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: Here right now, most of being a timeline of suspicious

551
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 3: kind of the open behavior. But we also need to

552
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 3: look at the timeline much broad up border than this.

553
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 3: We need to look at seeing where that phone was

554
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 3: and by using analysis and the MPI is great at this,

555
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 3: and perhaps they were helping Milwaukee Police on this with

556
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 3: their cast team. They can start to look and see

557
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 3: the location of that phone all the way along, including

558
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 3: when that text message was sent, and then perhaps further

559
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 3: on where that phone was until maybe the battery dies

560
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 3: or where it's turned off. So there's a lot of

561
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 3: things in here, but the timeline, as you said, is

562
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 3: very important because it does start to suggest that perhaps

563
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 3: there was someone else who was in control of that phone.

564
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: Shade Robinson's family joins the searches near the playground over

565
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 2: the weekend. While police find unidentified human remains, Robinson's family

566
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: discovers a blanket belonging to Shade. The distinct pink blanket

567
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: pictures Shade with her beloved dog, Coco Chanel, who passed away.

568
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 2: As more human remains are discovered, the family is losing

569
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: hope Shade will be found alive.

570
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 1: Facts lead police to an apartment complex and they spend

571
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: more than twenty four hours searching a particular upper unit

572
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: of the complex, a duplex, and they state that they

573
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: discover blood and the stairwell and on a comforter. The

574
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,479
Speaker 1: homeowner is detained. Take a listen to this.

575
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 11: Milwaukee Sheriffs reveal Maxwell Anderson remains in custody as a

576
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 11: person of interest connected to the remains found along Lake Michigan.

577
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 11: Anderson has not yet been criminally charged, but does have

578
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 11: a rap sheet. Anderson has several convictions including disorderly conduct

579
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 11: domestic abuse in dui over the last ten years. In

580
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 11: two incidents, Anderson became violent with relatives and in a

581
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 11: third beat a stranger who intervened in an argument between

582
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 11: Anderson and a woman. Anderson is said to work as

583
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 11: a bartender for several establishments in the Milwaukee area.

584
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: Alexis Tereschuk, What if anything does this guy, this convict,

585
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: have to do with a high school girl?

586
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 6: So the police are keeping a little close to their chest.

587
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 6: But what they have said is cell phone records. So

588
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 6: a cell phone of his pinged near either where they

589
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 6: found the car or where they found the sever perhaps

590
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 6: one of the human remains, but mostly the car, as

591
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 6: cell phone data put him in proximity to where they

592
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 6: believe that Shade was missing or last seen. So that

593
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 6: is a big telltale sign at his phone.

594
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: To me, Bill Daily, it sounds like stranger on stranger

595
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: because we haven't found any link between this convict and

596
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: a high school girl. But evidence is pouring in to

597
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: make that charging decision. For instance, blood found in Anderson's

598
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: home matches the leg discovered at Warnamont Park. Blood evidence

599
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: was discovered in Anderson's residence. And also we're learning that

600
00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: Anderson quote was in contact with a missing person based

601
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: on those cell phone records. Okay, what about it? Bill?

602
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,479
Speaker 3: And that's the effect you know, and reading reading through

603
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 3: on this story, it was this person of interest attorney

604
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 3: who came out and actually said that police had used

605
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 3: some cell power information and perhaps some was kind of

606
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 3: vague as far as you know, perhaps some contact or

607
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 3: some knowledge of a missing person. So is the number

608
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 3: of things tied together here? But as you rightly said,

609
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 3: is that you know this is only enough to perhaps

610
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 3: attain the individual. It's nothing more to say that there's

611
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 3: there's a forensic evernence that ties this all together neatly.

612
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 3: And that's what I think policemen trying to do is

613
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 3: trying to work very very quickly, do DNA analysis, to

614
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 3: cell phone analysis, do all the other forensic analysis they

615
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 3: can in order to give that to prosecutors so they

616
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 3: can move on this case. If in fact this person

617
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 3: of interest is involved.

618
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: All in eight is two DNA matches and they don't

619
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: have to be great. They can mitochondrial matches. So to you,

620
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: medical examiner, doctor Esen, I need a DNA match pronto

621
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: between the blood in his apartment and the severed leg.

622
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: Then I need to match his severed leg DNA to

623
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: shaw Day. That's all I need, and I'm ready for

624
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: a murder one charge. Agree, disagree?

625
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 2: Agreed?

626
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 1: How hard is that?

627
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 4: It shouldn't take very long. Technology is very good these days.

628
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: What about it, Matthew Mangino? You think I need more

629
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: than that? I got a severed leg, a missing girl,

630
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 1: and blood in his apartment. They all three match.

631
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 10: Well, certainly that would be adequate, but I would always

632
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 10: want as much evidence as I can. You know, this

633
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 10: is these incidents, the fire, the urson. It's in a city.

634
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 10: I'm sure there's some video out there. I'd like to

635
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 10: see some of that, if it could be retrieved. I'd

636
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 10: like to see if we have any additional video the regina.

637
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 1: It ain't Christmas yet, man, I'm not going to tie

638
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: it up with a bow and put it on the

639
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: Christmas tree until we go to indictment, right, now I

640
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: want this guy behind bars. I don't want him to

641
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: get out. We need a formal charge to hold him.

642
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: Then you can work around the clock and build the case.

643
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: We need him to stay behind bars until the case

644
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: is built. We wait as justice unfolds. If you know

645
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 1: or think you know anything about this case or about Shahda,

646
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 1: dial four one four nine three five seven two five

647
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 1: two repeat four one four nine, three, five seven two

648
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 1: five two. We stop now and we remember. American hero

649
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: police officer Paul Elmstrand, just twenty seven, shot in the

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Speaker 1: line of duty with officer Matthew Rugi and paramedic Adam

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Speaker 1: fin said they were responding to a domestic call. Officer

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Speaker 1: Elmstrand survived by wife Cindy, two year old daughter Maria,

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00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: and baby son Matteo. American hero police Officer Paul Holmstrand,

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Speaker 1: goodbye friend,