1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: your Mind? My name is Robert Man, and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: And hey, it's still October here on the Stuff to 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast. So we're going to be talking 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: about something weird. I mean, we often talk about things 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: that are weird, but I guess we get even weirder 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: this month. So, Rob today you picked out the topic 9 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: of the cattle mutilation panic, which I think is going 10 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: to tie into a very exciting weird house cinema movie 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: that we're gonna be uh doing an episode on tomorrow. 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: But this is something that I've been aware of my 13 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: whole life, but never actually properly looked into. It was 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: just kind of one of those things always in my 15 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: peripheral vision. Yeah, somewhere out there, this is a topic 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: people care about, but I don't know anything about it. 17 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: And uh it actually, you know what, It's gotten more 18 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: interesting the more I looked at it, not because it's 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: aliens or a government conspiracy, but uh, I don't know 20 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: the some of the smart takes you found about, like 21 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: the sociological phenomenon. Yeah, I think it was pretty much 22 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: in the same boat concerning this topic. I knew it 23 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: was something that comes up in conspiracy circles and among 24 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: UFO enthusiasts. I knew that it was the kind of 25 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: thing that might pop up on say, an episode of 26 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: The X Files here or there um, but I'd never 27 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: really look closely at it. And and I do wanna Yeah, 28 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: I do want to tell everybody out there. Yeah, there 29 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: will be maybe a few little mentions of the grizzly 30 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: details in this episode, but for the most part, the 31 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: really interesting stuff about this is not what was allegedly 32 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: done or not done to cattle, but yes, some of 33 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: these other things surrounding it, such as, you know, the 34 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: idea of cattle mutilation as a uh is a is 35 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: a is a panic or a mild panic, as a 36 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: as an idea, as a script for for some sort 37 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: of unexplained event, or is a script into which one 38 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: could poor ones anxieties and concerns, And so we're gonna 39 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: be getting into a lot of that. But yeah, I 40 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: think cattle mutilation is one of those topics that, despite 41 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: all of its grotesque and outrageous properties, is easy to 42 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: overlook and not to think about, especially for those of 43 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: us living outside of the times, and this is generally 44 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: like a mid uh, mid nineteen seventies kind of situation. 45 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: We'll get into the dates in a bit. Also, if 46 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: you if you live outside of the places where the 47 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: phenomenon resonates the strongest, namely American cattle country and again 48 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: the mid nineteen seventies, though of course, there are still 49 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: people who say that the cattle mutilation phenomenon continues to 50 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: this day, and it's kind of hard to know whether 51 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: to argue with that or not, because as the what 52 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: the social phenomenon, it does seem to have peaked very 53 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: much in the seventies, But of course there are still 54 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: like cattle carcasses that people find and sometimes they look strange, 55 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: and sometimes people try to categorize those along with whatever 56 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: was being discussed in this other phenomenon from the and 57 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: these yeah, yeah, uh so it seems to be the 58 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: case when you look at uphologists and conspiracy theory enthusiasts 59 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: out there, it seems like maybe they're more often drawn 60 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: into more human centric topics like UFO sightings, I saw something, 61 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: this person saw something. Alien abductions, in which you have 62 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: a personal testimony of of beings from the outside or 63 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: stuff like jfk assassination theories and various modern trends and 64 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,399 Speaker 1: conspiracy circles. But yeah, I feel like for the rest 65 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: of us outside of those circles, outside of the world 66 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: of American cattle country in the mid seventies, it's easy 67 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: to just dismiss cattle mutilation as to the realm of 68 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: hoax and superstition without stopping to wonder like why it 69 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: emerged as an idea, Like hoaxes and superstitions do not 70 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: come about without, you know, some sort of reasoning, without 71 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: some sort of of of cause, Like they're interesting effects, 72 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: even in the creation of something that is objectively not true. 73 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: Because as if the alleged mutilations were not the result 74 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: of secret government experiments or alien visitations or the work 75 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: of strange cryptids eating on cows in the night, then 76 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: what were they the result of. If these are misinterpretations 77 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: of actual physical evidence, then what is being misinterpreted, Why 78 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: is it being misinterpreted, what is fueling the ensuing panic, 79 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: and what does it mean? So these are some of 80 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: the topics we're going to be exploring in this episode. Now, 81 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: a couple of key sources that I'll be referring to 82 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: in this episode, and and I think we're gonna throw 83 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: a couple other things in there as well. But one 84 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: is an excellent two thousand and eleven paper by Michael J. 85 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: Goldman that was published in Agricultural History titled Wave of Mutilation, 86 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: The Cattle Mutilation Phenomenon of the nineteen seventies. And another 87 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: paper I was looking at, a paper titled Death by Folklore, Ostension, 88 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: Contemporary Legend and Murder by Bill Ellis published in Western 89 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: States Folklore Society. Now, I know we said we're not 90 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: going to dwell more than we need to on the 91 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: the specific grizzly details, though I guess we do need 92 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: to begin by sort of describing what people are talking 93 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: about when they talk about cattle mutilation. That's right, Yeah. 94 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: Goldman in his in his paper points out that among 95 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: the ranchers that we are that are reporting these cases 96 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: beginning in earnest, he says, during nineteen seventy three, and 97 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: continuing through the end of the nineteen seventies, these are 98 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: a few of the the details we can generally tick 99 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: check off the list. First of all, the apparent removal 100 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: of an animal's eyes, ears utters anus and sex organs. Uh. 101 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,119 Speaker 1: Not only removal, but reports that the parts are um 102 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: are are surgically removed, or the cuts have surgical like precision, 103 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: or that there was some sort of coring methodology to 104 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: their removal. Something that that at least to the either 105 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: to the eyes of the nous or in the retelling 106 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: of the event, does not seem in keeping with with 107 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: with the work of of say animals. Yeah, they lean 108 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: on this kind of detail a lot. That the stories 109 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: involve um injuries are alterations to livestock animal carcasses. Uh. 110 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: That Uh, that would that are not understood as like 111 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: the kind of ragged tearing one would expect to see 112 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: if say, a predator had had attacked an animal carcass, 113 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: but instead that they describe sort of clean cuts, surgical 114 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: precision incisions, or excisions as if made by a sharp 115 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: metal instrument. Yeah. And sometimes you also see it listed 116 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,679 Speaker 1: that there was an apparent absence of footprints or tire tracks, 117 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: thus ruling out human interference. Also the apparent absence of 118 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: usual scavenger species, uh, playing into the argument, well, and 119 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: with the scavengers couldn't have done this, there's no sign 120 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: of the scavengers. Another one of the claims I've seen 121 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: emphasized pretty often by the the cattle mutologists is the 122 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: idea that there was not a single drop of blood 123 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: on the site. I watched one really stupid documentary about 124 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: cattle mutilation that heavily leaned on the alleged lack of blood, 125 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: both in the body and on the ground around the animal. Uh, 126 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: sort of trying to emphasize the idea that it is 127 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: impossible that, say, the soft tissue and the organs that 128 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: you described earlier could have been removed as they were 129 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: without spilling blood all over the place. So something is 130 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: defying the laws of physics here. Yeah. Now, Additionally, in 131 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: some cases, according to Goldman, and we'll get into some 132 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: of this in the bed, there were also reports of 133 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: aerial activity, um of aerial phenomena happening as well, uh, 134 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: such as strange objects seen in the sky for days 135 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: or weeks after the incident, or the sighting of unmarked 136 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: or black helicopters hovering over areas near known mutilations. And 137 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,679 Speaker 1: those are common themes. But I would say it doesn't 138 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: stop there actually, Uh, just that cattle mutilations are often 139 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: paired with other weird observances that you know, might not 140 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: be like those things at all, like it might be, Oh, 141 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: there was a figure in a tree that had glowing 142 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: yellow eyes and it was staring at me. Now at 143 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: this point, regular listeners to stuff to blow your mind 144 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: might realize, hey, this is very similar to what we 145 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: just talked about in a couple of episodes on elf Shot. 146 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: And indeed there is a lot of unexpected synchronicity between 147 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: these topics. Uh. The idea, like one of the ideas 148 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: I brought up was, you know, you you go out 149 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: into the woods looking for star jelly, you will find 150 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: star jelly. You know, if if your your your your 151 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: curiosity is um is heightened, and your awareness is heightened 152 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: for the uncanny or verse signs of the uncanny, you 153 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: can probably find something that the mind will then interpret 154 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: as as the uncanny. Right now, I guess from here, 155 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: now that we've described what some of these reports are like, 156 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't make a lot of sense to like quibble 157 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: over how accurate the observational reports of these animal carcasses are, 158 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: because probably in some cases they're not reported totally right, 159 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: But we should just I think, except for the sake 160 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: of argument, that basically there are cases in which some 161 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: or many or even all of these details have been 162 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: observed and and work from there. Right, like, assuming people 163 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: did at least in some cases fine livestock carcasses that 164 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: had these features. How to make sense of it? Now? 165 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: Of course, some people are going to go to, well, 166 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: it was aliens, or it's cryptids, it's the chipcabra, or 167 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: it's some kind of weird government conspiracy. It's a cover up, 168 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: they're doing biological weapons experiments, that the kind of things 169 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: you already mentioned. Um, but what what would the skeptical 170 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: side tend to come back on? Well, I mean, on 171 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: one level, what we're talking about here, like the most 172 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: logical path for understanding catle mutilation phenomenon or a cattle 173 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: mutilation panic is that you're talking about misinterpretation of the dead. 174 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: Um and this this is certainly with this would not 175 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: be the first time in human history that such misinterpretations 176 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: played into folklore and superstition. We've talked about various examples 177 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: on the show before, for instance, the misinterpretation of drowned 178 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 1: bodies and the Japanese Kappa tales to uh oh, the 179 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: various misinterpretations of human decay that played into the vampire 180 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: legends of Europe, like casts gets open to reveal blood 181 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: bloated bodies supposedly, or fingernails that seem to have kept 182 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: growing after death. That sort of thing. Yeah, which are 183 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: actually just normal ways that a corpus might appear due 184 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: to the physical process of decomposition. But people not understanding 185 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: really what they were looking at that like, a swollen 186 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: corpse would be swollen because of it's it's decomposition state, 187 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: not because it has recently engorged itself on a meal 188 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: of blood. Right, but how often are you opening up caskets. 189 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: You're probably only opening up caskets of suspected vampires. So 190 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: and then when you open them up, this is what 191 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: you see, You've you probably don't have a lot to 192 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: compare it to. And therefore the super natural provides a 193 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: script by which to understand, uh, the the the strange, 194 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: and the uncanny. Robbie just threw the comparison to our 195 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: elf shot episodes. But I also think of the story 196 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: of the farmer who has a calf dropped dead and 197 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: then opens up the body and finds that it has 198 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: a hole in its heart or so, so the farmer thinks, 199 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not said in that story, how much 200 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: experience the farmer had looking at calf hearts. I mean 201 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: maybe they had a lot, maybe they had none. I 202 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: don't know. But in any case, this is interpreted as 203 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: a fairy weapon because what else could explain it. Yeah, 204 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: Now this is probably good at time as any to 205 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: remind everybody when when we when we talk about um 206 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: phenomena like this, situations where they're they're they're very well, 207 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: maybe some sort of a moral panic or public panic 208 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: in place, and there's some sort of a uh, you know, 209 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: a paranormal angle. Uh. You know, it doesn't mean by 210 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: any by any stretch of the imagination that you have 211 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: just like dumb individuals falling for something that that you 212 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: know that this is just like stupid people making a 213 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: stupid mistake. Uh, It's it's a lot more complicated than that, 214 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: you know. And once you're you're you're in the middle 215 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: of of one of these situations, uh, you know, you 216 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: have you have various forces kind of steering your mind 217 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: towards the supernatural script and then the interpretation of reality 218 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: through that script. So I want to drive that home 219 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: because and and also it ultimately builds up from there 220 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: because one of the things that Goldman points out is 221 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: that ultimately multiple local and state law enforcement agencies open 222 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: investigations into cattle mutilation. This includes the cb I, the 223 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: Minnesota field office of the a t F, as well 224 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: as federally funded investigations directed by the Northern New Mexico 225 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: d d a's office. You had senators and congressmen raising 226 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: questions about the phenomenon, and Canadian reports were investigated by 227 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: the Mounties. So um, so yeah, we we we have 228 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: to be careful looking back at this, uh these events 229 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies. Uh, um, with knowing what we 230 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: know now well and also being humble about what we 231 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: know now because while I think we can offer some 232 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: some very reasonable guesses that would explain many of these cases, 233 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's totally possible that there are some cases, 234 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: some reports of cattle mutilation phenomenon that in fact we 235 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: have no idea what the explanation is. That doesn't mean 236 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: you have warrant to jump to conclusions of aliens or 237 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: government conspiracies or whatever. But you know, we should be 238 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: humble about our you know, the limits of our ability 239 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: to explain things. Sometimes the cases are just underdetermined. We 240 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 1: don't have enough evidence. We don't know what happened. Yeah, 241 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: and of course I think today's audience certainly realizes the 242 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: role of the media can play in UM in presenting 243 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: like conspiracy ideas and um in even paranormal ideas about 244 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: what's going on in the world. And Yeah, at the time, 245 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: Goldman points out, it wasn't just fringe conspiracy reporting that 246 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: was fueling this um yet, even though cattle mutilation is 247 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: largely the domain of of these groups today. But at 248 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: the time, the Associated Press and Newsweek both covered cattle 249 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: mutilation phenomena. There there was even a regional Emmy Award 250 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: winning documentary in Night Uh, So you had that going 251 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: on as well to to fuel uh the paranoia. So 252 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: but while aliens and UFOs and ultimately I think cryptids 253 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: would play a part in the various interpretations and stories 254 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: about supposed cattle mutilations, the most pervasive version of the 255 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: cattle mutilation script during the nineteen seventies, the most pervasive 256 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: version that was being reported, reported to the media and 257 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: so forth, was that of a conspiracy theory concerning the 258 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: US government. And this is one of Goldman's key points 259 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: in his writings because while it's easy to dismiss cattle 260 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: mutilation is being just a part of the larger UFO 261 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: hysteria gripping the country at the time. Quote, it reveals 262 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: much about the socio economic condition of Midwestern ranchers. It 263 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: demonstrates the volatility of the cattle industry during the nineties 264 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: seventies and a growing distrust of the federal government among 265 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: many small scale ranchers who had limited holdings, worked their 266 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: ranch part time or relied on public land used to 267 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: sustain their cattle. I think Goldman makes a great point 268 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: that during the seventies especially, there were multiple factors sort 269 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: of working together at the same time, a sort of 270 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: disembodied conspiracy working to really, uh put the pressure on 271 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: on Western ranchers in the US. Yeah, especially the smaller 272 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: scale ranchers, which is something he touches on again and again. 273 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: The bigger ranchers they were not reporting these incidents, and 274 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: they were they seemed largely skeptical of these reports. It 275 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: was the smaller scale ranchers that that were reporting these Now, 276 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: this period economically is often reported referred to as the 277 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: Great Stagflation, a time to find by high inflation, high unemployment, 278 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: and economic stagnation and heap onto that high food prices, 279 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: a global food shortage, and UH and so forth. Goldman 280 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: provides a great deal more insight on the economic and 281 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: policy details here, but one of the key details concerns 282 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: what's known in um in in the cattle business and 283 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: UH agricultural history of the time as and also in 284 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: the reporting of the time as the wreck in three now. Again, 285 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: this is just the brief version. Goldman goes into a 286 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: lot more detail, but basically, President Nixon institutes a ninety 287 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: day price freeze on certain meats to halt inflation. Then 288 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: the freeze is lifted on everything except cattle. So cattle 289 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: ranchers they hold off on slaughtering their cattle till the 290 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: freeze lifts. They know the freeze is gonna lift, so 291 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: why why slaughter and cell now when they can wait 292 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: until the prices go back up. But this ends up 293 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: impacting the meat packing industry, putting people out of jobs, 294 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: and this results also in a nationwide beef shortage. I 295 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: think Goldman also makes the point that the ranchers were 296 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: sort of in a bind because so there was a 297 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: temporary freeze on the price of beef, but there was 298 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: but Meanwhile, inflation was still affecting, say, the price of 299 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: the grains that they would be using for feed and 300 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, so they weren't completely insulated 301 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: from from everything either. They were still filling the you know, 302 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: the tough socio economic pressure as well. So Goldman argues 303 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: that the distrust ranchers held towards the federal government during 304 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: this time, coupled with the turbulent economic conditions and government 305 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: interference in the cattle industry, fed and helped sustained cattle 306 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: mutilation phenomena. The script of cattle mutilation gave them a 307 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: means of understanding certain cattle deaths, but also a way 308 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: to project their fears and insecurities into this uh conspiracy. 309 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: Goldman also links this atmosphere of hostility to the sage 310 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: Brush Rebellion, in which Western state lawmakers attempted to reclaim 311 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: federally protected public land for ranchers and miners, and the 312 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: libertarian movement of the sixties and seventies, and and also 313 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: hostility towards nineteen seventies environmental regulations that had come online. So, 314 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: if I'm understanding Goldman's interpretation right, and and if he's correct, 315 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: what he's saying is that they're essentially were all these 316 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: real conditions that were making life very hard for for 317 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: ranchers in the seventies, and some of those real conditions 318 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: at least were perceived to be due to to to 319 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: government influence. And then you pair that with Okay, maybe 320 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,479 Speaker 1: maybe you have some random cattle die offs that are 321 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: due to a number of different causes, perhaps and you 322 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: sort of project this, this frustration and this unease onto 323 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: the deaths of those cattle, and imagine that the deaths 324 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,959 Speaker 1: of the cattle is actually caused by the government, like 325 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: directly in a violent way. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, again, an 326 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: anxious situation, very tense, especially among these smaller scale ranches, 327 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: and you already have a a very low opinion of 328 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: the government, of the federal government at the time, and 329 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,239 Speaker 1: then cattle mutilation provides a means of unleashing all of 330 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: these feelings onto an even more diabolical vision of the 331 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: US federal government, one that isn't just restricting your freedoms 332 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: or hurting your livelihood, but who is actively and physically 333 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: visiting your livestock and mutilating them with bizarre methods for 334 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: unfathomable ends. So the you know, in this strip, the 335 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: agents of the government become virtually identical to imagine, which is, 336 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: and wizards at black masses, you know, engaging in bloody 337 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: acts to a dark forces, and the dead body of 338 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: the cow becomes a kind of physical evidence to back 339 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: up one's view of of the federal government. So Goldman 340 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: explains that in seventy three, in the aftermath of the wreck, 341 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: ranchers in Kansas and Nebraska began to report cattle mutilations, 342 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: and some also reported strange lights in the sky. And 343 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: the way Goldman describes it, uphologists are UFO enthusiasts, were 344 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: We're quick to jump in and offer their favorite explanation 345 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: for the lights especially, but also the mutilations. And apparently 346 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: some ranchers described what they saw in those terms, but 347 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: others were more vague about it. They might say, well, 348 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: there's a big ball of fire in the sky. But 349 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: Goldman rights that quote. Many more reported seeing strange, unmarked helicopters. 350 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: So again, for the most part, it doesn't seem like 351 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: like the individuals that were reporting these in the seventies 352 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about UFOs, most of them were drawing in 353 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: these ideas that some sort of strange helicopters were seen nearby, Uh, 354 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: strange helicopters that might well be the work of the government. Now, 355 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: there were other initial explanations for the helicopters. There was talk, well, 356 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: maybe it's cattle wrestlers. But then, you know, why would 357 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: cattle wrestlers kill a cow and only take like the 358 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: eyeballs and the other strange parts. Um. You know. Then 359 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: there was also the idea that was some sort of 360 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: military operation based out of Fort Riley in Kansas, or 361 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: that it was indeed the work of some government secret 362 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: government agency, and the mutation the mutilations were the result 363 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: of some sort of biological weapons test program. And these 364 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: ultimately become the more um widely circulated ideas. And I 365 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: think it is totally worth noting that while I think 366 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: you and I agree that government conspiracies do not seem 367 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: like a very good explanation for the alleged cattle mutilation phenomenon, 368 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: they're actually almost certainly were some government conspiracies at least 369 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: one we know of that did lead to dead livestock 370 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: in the years just before this, uh, the the so 371 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: called doug Way sheep incident or the doug Way Sheep massacre. Uh, 372 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: though I think there's some very important differences I want 373 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: to mention, But like that that does appear, I think 374 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: due to some document disclosures now to be pretty clearly 375 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: the fault of some government weapons testing. Yeah, this was 376 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: night the doug Way sheep incident, in which I think 377 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: Goldman sites hundred sheep, but I've seen I've seen six 378 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: thousand sided elsewhere, so I'm gonna go with gold It 379 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: on this one. But perhaps the number has shifted. Um. 380 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: At any rate, that's a lot of sheep. Thousands of 381 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: sheep were killed on ranches near the U. S. Armies 382 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: dug Way proven Ground in Utah, and accusations were made 383 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,719 Speaker 1: at the time against the army, saying, you guys did this, 384 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: You did something with your weapons tests and you killed 385 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: all these sheep, and the Army said, no, no, that's 386 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: not true, we didn't do that. And then these incidents 387 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: were revealed to have been caused by tests apparently of 388 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: the nerve agent VX. So Goldman quote points out that, Yeah, 389 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: the Dugway sheep incident could have also contributed to the 390 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: cattle mutilation script involving you know, clandestine US military testing 391 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: and certainly made it seemed more possible, uh, like like 392 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,239 Speaker 1: here's this other incident, Like you can't argue with all 393 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: the thousands of dead sheep, we think the government had 394 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: something to do with that. So perhaps it's also they 395 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: also had something to do with this cow that was 396 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: found on your land, or that this cow that was 397 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: found on a neighbor's ranch. Though I think there are 398 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: some very important differences, one of which being that I 399 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: think in the Dugway incident, there was some there was 400 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: some additional evidence to confirm that the government testing of 401 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: nerve agents intended as weapons had possibly been involved, Like 402 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: like there were some lab tests that that showed the 403 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: presence of VX and some of these sheep. Am I 404 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: right about that? Yeah, that's my understanding that there were 405 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: clear signs that a nerve agent of some sort have 406 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: been used. Uh. And there were, of course no signs 407 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: of mutilation. These were just sheep. They were uh, they 408 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: were dying or dead and all of a sudden. The 409 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: other thing I would say is that while I think 410 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: it's always important to be modest about trying to uh 411 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: to reason out, how you know, reason out what would 412 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: have made sense to happen, because sometimes they're just situations 413 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: where you know, you don't know why something would have happened. 414 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: But but given that caveat, the alleged chain of events 415 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: that happened to Dugway makes sense. So this is a 416 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: weapons testing grounds. Uh, they're testing secret weapons programs. They're 417 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:02,479 Speaker 1: testing nerve gas. There's a malfunction. It releases gas into 418 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: a ranch populated area nearby and poisons and kills a 419 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: bunch of sheep and I think also possibly affected some 420 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: humans living there as well. And while this could just 421 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: be a failure of imagination, again to be humble about that, 422 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: I have a hard time coming up with an equally 423 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: logical chain of events leading to a government conspiracy to 424 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: mutilate random cows and horses on people's ranch land and 425 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: then cover it up. Like if men in secret black 426 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: helicopters needed cow organs, this is often what is supposed that, Like, 427 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: they're doing biological experiments and they need cow organs for them. Uh, 428 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: it seems like a really weird choice to source them 429 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: by attacking other people's privately owned cattle herds in the 430 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: night and trying to keep it a secret. Like again, 431 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: you can't say that's impossible, but I'm just trying to 432 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: think why they would go that route instead of just 433 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: like buying or raising their own stocks of cattle to 434 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: run the tests. Yeah, especially since the testing question are 435 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: supposed to be secret. You know, Um, how are you 436 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: going to maintain secrecy by by by conducting your experiments 437 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: on on on the land of of others and then 438 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: running away from and just leaving all the evidence there? 439 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: I mean, running a secret helicopter operation. That's got to 440 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: actually be expensive. It's hard for I'm not an expert 441 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: on the you know, agricultural pricing, but I would think 442 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: you could actually get the cows cheaper than like running 443 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: a helicopter program. This is going to be mostly a discussion, 444 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: will say, for this week's Weird House, but I feel 445 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: like the Alan Rudolph film Endangered Species, uh, which is 446 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: not the main film we're gonna be talking about this Friday, 447 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 1: but it is a cattle mutilation film that involved It 448 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 1: takes the conspiracy thriller route and has a government conspiracy 449 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: at the heart of things. This movie probably does as 450 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: logical and a good job as you could possibly do 451 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: to to to bring that to life on the screen 452 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: and make it feel like it makes and in a 453 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: big part of how Rudolph pulls it off and the 454 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: screenwriters pull it off is by not filling in those blanks, 455 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: by keeping the mystery there. Like you see government researchers 456 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: doing this, collecting cattle and talking about it, and they're 457 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: just kind of like talking shop, like why should we 458 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: go out and get one more before we have to 459 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: clear out of here for secret reasons, And they're like, yeah, 460 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: we'll do it, and you buy into it because it's 461 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: well constructed and well presented on the screen, But they 462 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: don't actually explain. They don't they know better than to 463 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: try to explain why they would be doing this at 464 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: any rate. Is um as Goldman points out, like this 465 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: does seem to create a genuine feeling of fear and 466 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: disquiet in these regions about cattle mutilations. It's not just 467 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: again there's a lot of tension, there's a lot of 468 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: anxiety already about the socio economic conditions. Then this is 469 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: occurring there. People were thought telling tales about this, and 470 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: it's not just like casual like like oh here you 471 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: have the media, come over, I'm gonna tell owned by 472 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: this cow. I think it was alien, so I think 473 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: it was a conspiracy you know, people were apparently concerned, 474 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: and it led to the actual formation of vigil anti 475 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: groups who were checking out of state vehicles for signs 476 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: of cattle blood. Um. There were reports of encounters with 477 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: strange helicopters that were spreading around, So you had some 478 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: some unfortunate and dangerous incidents, like in Nebraska, a farmer 479 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: apparently shot at a utility helicopter and the Nebraska National 480 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: Guard had to ask all schoppers to start flying at 481 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: a higher altitude for a while. There was another case 482 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: with a rancher firing and a military chopper. So at 483 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 1: a state level, officials were worried that someone might get 484 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: hurt over this. Like it wasn't just there's some superstition 485 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 1: out there, but like it's it's leading to some potentially 486 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: dangerous situations. And on top of this, like the ranchers 487 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: are still saying, yes, something terrible is happening here, something 488 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: strange is happening here, cash rewards are being offered, and 489 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: also and ultimately official in the investigations are opened into 490 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: the matter. But when do we get to the Satanic cults? Oh, 491 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: now we get to the Satanic cults, because yeah, one 492 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: of the investigations that's opened. This is seventy five, so 493 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: this is this is pretty much the peak. According to Goldman, 494 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: you have the Minnesota a t f U, that's the 495 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: alcohol to back in firearms opening investigation, which led to 496 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: satanic biker gangs or as um as Goldman quotes them, 497 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: is saying hell oriented biker gangs hell oriented. Yeah. Uh 498 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: And according to Goldman, this comes about because the lead 499 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: investigator ends up talking to a convicted bank robber and 500 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: that bank robber insists that bikers hell oriented bikers are 501 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: the ones running around mutilating cows. Uh So yeah, at 502 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: this point the devil and his bikers are involved. But 503 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: of course, within the confines of an actual investigation, this 504 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: leads nowhere because because this was not actually happening, they 505 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: apparently did turn up some evidence on illegal motorcycle gang activities, 506 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: illegal motorcycle club activities in the region, but nothing that 507 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: connected to cattle mutilations. So the case was closed. Okay, 508 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: so it probably was not satanic biker gangs, right, I 509 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: think we can rule that out. But then the Colorado 510 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: Bureau of Investigation gets involved. Also in seventy five, a 511 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: nineteen month investigation with Carl Whiteside looking at more than 512 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: two hundred reported mutilations in the cropsies of nineteen carcasses. 513 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: I think they were going to try and do more, 514 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: but ended up being nineteen um Eleven of these cases 515 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: were ruled to have possibly had cuts made by a 516 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: sharp object or or instrument post mortem, but all signs 517 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: still pointed to natural causes of death. The cb I 518 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: posted a forty dollar reward for information on cattle mutilations. 519 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: They even set up a witness protection program for anyone 520 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: who would come forward with information, but no one came forward. 521 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: The case was closed due to lack of apparent criminal 522 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: activity and due to the fact that reports of cattle 523 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: mutilations began to drop off on their own by mid 524 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six. Now, during that CBI investigation, apparently Whiteside 525 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: asked the FBI for assistance, which was denied, apparently due 526 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: to lack of evidence. But of course the FBI's refusal 527 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: to investigate played right into the hands of conspiracy theorists 528 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: who are like, well, yeah, of course the FEDS aren't 529 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: going to look into it. It's the FEDS doing it right, right. 530 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: I Mean, one of the things about the conspiracy mindset 531 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: is it can accommodate anything. So if the FBI does investigate, 532 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: that's validation. If they don't investigate, that's also validation. Right. 533 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, Camp Cornea Goldman seventy five was the peak 534 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: for reported cattle mutilations. He writes that actual numbers of 535 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: reported cases are spotty, but some of the reported numbers 536 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: break down as follows. So there's like a hundred mutilations 537 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: in Nebraska, Kansas, and Iowa between May seventy three and 538 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: September seventy four, twenty two mutilations in Minnesota between nineteen 539 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: seventy and nineteen seventy four, and Colorado reports were high, 540 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: but also they fluctuated somewhat, So depending on apparently which 541 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: source you're looking at, could be as few as fifty 542 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: or as many as two hundred. It's interesting those numbers 543 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: are different than generalizations I know I've seen in the 544 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: more like fringe leaning cattle mutilation sources which say that 545 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: you know, there are thousands and thousands of incidents. Yeah, 546 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: but I think, as we'll discuss um, even that might 547 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: might not not be as impressive a number as we think. Um. 548 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: But anyway, Yeah, here here are the hard facts that 549 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: all evidence suggests that that these apparent mutilations were not 550 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: due to any of these um outrageous or otherworldly or 551 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: conspiracy minded um causes. They were in all likelihood due 552 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: to scavenger activity, with the possibility that there may have 553 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: been some human involvement in a few instances. Uh. And 554 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: and as for the cause of death, which again in 555 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: the cases where we had actual necropsies, uh, they seem 556 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: to all be natural causes. Goldman does drive the cattle 557 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 1: death is just a way of life, obviously generally caused 558 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: by diseases such as black leg, which apparently is a 559 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: common cattle disease all lightning strikes. Sorry black leg came 560 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: up in the elf shot episode because that's right. Yeah, 561 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: they were asking the in one of those reports, asking 562 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: the farmer whether the calf could have fallen ill, because 563 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: apparently with black leg also known as quarter ill, which 564 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: again is an infection caused by Clostridium bacteria, that often 565 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: an animal can seem healthy and then drop dead very rapidly. 566 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: It can be extremely sudden. Yeah, lightning strikes or another one. 567 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: And lightning strikes apparently can they can leave quite perplexing 568 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: injuries on the on a dead cow or horse, also 569 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: gastro intestinal problems due to consuming nails, barbed wire, et cetera. Uh, 570 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, whilst grazing. But here's a Here are some 571 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: numbers from Goldman and I think are pretty interesting. Quote 572 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four, again this is the this is 573 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: right around the peak, you know, right before the peak. 574 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy four, the U s d A estimated 575 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: that six point one million cattle deaths had occurred over 576 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: the course of the year, which equates to only four 577 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: point five percent of the overall cattle population of one 578 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: thirty one point eight million head. And this number, he adds, 579 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: was actually down from seventy three spike a six point 580 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: five million deaths. So Goldman contends that finding a dead 581 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,719 Speaker 1: cow was nothing that unusual, and certainly ranchers would be 582 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: used to it. But but the thing is when there's 583 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: some other reason to be suspicious, if there's some other 584 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: possible idea that's introduced, that is backed up by media 585 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: circulation and so forth, then things can become different. Yeah, 586 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: And of course the people who would say, well, know, 587 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: cattle mutilation, there is something actually weird going on, they 588 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: would come back to that stuff we talked about before, 589 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: like the their claims about the characteristic features of the 590 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: injuries to these cow carcasses that they would say could 591 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: not be the result of natural predators or scavengers, right, 592 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: and that yeah, that and that's it's unfortunate that you 593 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: still see that reporting where where they will say, well, 594 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 1: this couldn't be animals doing this. What predator would would 595 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: leave all the good meat? What predator would only eat 596 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: these strange fleshes. But that's the thing, Uh, we can 597 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: we can pretty much agree that this is the work 598 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: of scavengers. Um. The frequently cited missing bits in the 599 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: cattle mutilation are exactly the sorts of flesh that scavengers 600 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: like coyotes, foxes, vultures, magpies, bobcats, badgers and flies would 601 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: go for. This is the soft tissue. And I think 602 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: we've discussed this very situation before in reference to crabs 603 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: on the show. There's also the argument, well, scavengers can't 604 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: be that precise with their cuts, but I think is 605 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: it we'll discuss that again in a little bit here, 606 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: but um, but also I think it's it's fair to 607 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: say that scavengers can can probably be more precise than 608 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: you think, especially if they're removing the soft flesh from region. 609 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: And then there's also the argument while there was no blood. 610 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 1: While the lack of blood it was apparently often due 611 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 1: to the post mortem coagulation of blood in the lower 612 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 1: regions of the animals. So again, the animals died of 613 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: some of their cause. It's not been killed by a predator. 614 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: It dies, it falls over, the blood coagulates in the 615 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: lower regions, drains and coagulates, and then the scavenger arrives. Yeah. 616 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: The blood phenomenon also known as liver mortis l I 617 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: v o R. Another potential source of strange looking injuries 618 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: on an animal cadaver. That that I was reading about 619 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: decomposition itself. Decomposition of an animal body by insects and 620 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: by micro organisms does not always look the way you 621 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: would expect it to, and it can produce some very 622 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: weird and creepy looking details. For example, I was reading 623 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: in the Skeptics Dictionary by Robert Todd Carroll an account 624 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: of an experiment carried out by the Sheriff's Department of 625 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: Washington County, Arkansas. I think this was in nineteen seventy nine, 626 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: in which a cal carcass was left out in a 627 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: field and observed for forty eight hours just to see 628 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: what the natural course of decomposition looked like. And Carol 629 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: writes that you know what, They found that blowflies and 630 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: maggots cleaned out portions of soft tissues sometimes said to 631 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: be missing from cases classified as cattle mutilation. And also 632 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: I found this maybe the most interesting part quote bloating 633 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: lead to incision like tears in the skin. So a 634 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: lot of the belief that it must be aliens or 635 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: it must be a government conspiracy leans heavily on the 636 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: cuts that resemble clean incisions or excisions rather than ragged tearing. 637 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: But it seems like there are cases where just regular 638 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: decomposition can lead to what looked like very clean splits 639 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: or cuts in the hide. Yeah. This, uh, this study 640 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: is one that I believe Goldman Niches as well, conducted 641 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: by anthropologist Nancy Owen Um funded about the University of 642 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: Arkansas using lethally tranquilized but already dying cows or already 643 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: dying cow and they found that the resulting scavenger wounds 644 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: matched up closely with reported um cattle mutilation quote surgical 645 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: cuts after thirty hours of exposure. Okay, So it seems 646 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: likely to us at least that many of the animals 647 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: reported as part of the cattle mutilation phenomenon probably had 648 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: injuries as a result of scavengers or as a result 649 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: of decomposition, but probably also some of them were actually 650 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: just cases where like a human person went out and 651 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:37,280 Speaker 1: tampered with a cow carcass. Yeah, especially once the script 652 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 1: is is is it full power once the idea is 653 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: out there? So yeah, you do have again a few 654 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: cases of suspected human activity, and these were thought to 655 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: be poor post mortem wounds, so again that the animal 656 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: had died of some of their cause and then humans 657 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: came and messed with the with the body. And when 658 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: you get into the reason for this, well, I think 659 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: we'll get into that question a bit more and a 660 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: bit here. But um, at the time, one mode of 661 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: trot it out for these quote unquote rural vandals by 662 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: some local agencies was good old fashioned cult activity. So yeah, 663 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: this again we're kind of slapped up in the middle 664 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: of Satanic panic here. Uh So, I guess it unfortunately 665 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: makes sense that Satanic colts would be uh fingered in 666 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: all of this, So sort of like they were with 667 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: the biker scenario, so right, but not satanic bikers, just 668 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: your average running the mills satanic farm teenagers. Right And 669 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: according to Goldman, Iowa's Department of Criminal Activity at the 670 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: time claimed to have found evidence connecting some of the 671 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: mutilations to Satanic activity, but no arrests were ever made, 672 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 1: and at any rate, the cases with suspected human involvement 673 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: were very low compared to the overall reported rate of mutilations. 674 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: Given the general credulity about satanic cult phenomenon at the time, 675 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: I would be doubtful of that connection, right, but will 676 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: come back to this in a it. But essentially what 677 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: ends up happening, though, again is the rate drops on 678 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: its own. Uh. And investigations are less about let's find 679 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: these people before they strike again, or let's stop these 680 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: aliens or whatever, let's find out what's happening, but instead 681 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what happened. Why Why were there 682 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: so many reports of cattle mutilations, and again mostly by 683 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: small scale ranchers blaming the federal government. Uh so you 684 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: had various surveys take place. Um. Former FBI agent Kenneth 685 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: Rommel investigated on behalf of the d a's office in 686 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: New Mexico, and he I think offered a very logical 687 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: sounding uh analysis of everything, blaming it on the power 688 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: of suggestion, media sensation, as well as irresponsible local law 689 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: enforcement officials. So basically, according to Rommel, you you'd have 690 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: this script already out there in the world and and uh, 691 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: then you'd have sensationalization by the media. And then comes 692 00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: a local law enforcement officer into to uh to who 693 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 1: respond to your report of a cattle death, an officer 694 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: who probably didn't have experience with bovine deaths of goldman ads, 695 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: and who would then suggest the cattle mutilation script and 696 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: not necessarily simply coming out and saying, well, that looks 697 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: mighty strange. I reckon it was aliens, but even by 698 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: more casually just mentioning some of the sort of the 699 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: keywords of the script, like saying like like remarking that 700 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: the wounds look surgical, or remarking that that the wounds 701 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: look like cuts, and the mind can just fill in 702 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: the rest, was Rammel's argument. And the results of this then, 703 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: as this gets passed up the chain, the media catches 704 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: wind of it, and the so the results feed the 705 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:46,359 Speaker 1: media coverage and the mild mass hysteria, as Goldman describes it, continues. Now, 706 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: of course we know conspiracy mindset can accommodate anything. So 707 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: if you have somebody investigated and find there's nothing to it, 708 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: well that that confirms it because they're part of the conspiracy, 709 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 1: right right, And yeah, So detractors argue that ramel With 710 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: clearly part of a conspiracy, especially with his FBI background. Uh. 711 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: There's another investigation that the Goldman mentions, a private investigation 712 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: by Daniel Kagan and Ian Summers. Uh and these backed 713 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,240 Speaker 1: up most of Rama's findings as they conducted interviews across 714 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: the country and learn linked the reports to a loss 715 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,759 Speaker 1: of faith in American institutions. Uh, so, belief in the 716 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: bizarre fueled by disillusionment. So Goldman spends a lot more 717 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 1: time making this case. And again, I think this paper 718 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: is worth checking out if you're really interested in the 719 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: nuts and bolts of it. Again, the wreck and the 720 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: cattle industry peaks in seventy five and falls away after that, 721 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: which matches up with the rise and fall of reported mutilations, 722 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: with small ranches hit the hardest by the wreck being 723 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: the main source of the reports. While larger ranchers remain 724 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: skeptical of the whole deal than you know. To echo 725 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: an idea that I think you already started to raise here, 726 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: it seems to me that perhaps a major source of 727 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: confusion is the very creation of this category known as 728 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: cattle mutilations, into which many, uh literally different incidents with 729 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 1: probably different causes can all be kind of sorted together. 730 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 1: And then once you have them all in the same 731 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,839 Speaker 1: conceptual bucket, people naturally tend to assume they therefore must 732 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 1: all share a single explanation. So if you say, well, 733 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm looking at this case of alleged 734 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: cattle mutilation, and this could probably just be a result 735 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: of natural predation or an animal dying of natural causes 736 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: and then being attacked by a scavenger, And then of 737 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: course someone could say, well, but that couldn't explain the 738 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: weird features of this other cattle mutilation case. And then 739 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: you could say, well, that could be just a product 740 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: of the normal features of decomposition of an animal body. 741 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: And they could say, well, but decomposition couldn't explain this 742 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: and this these other cases, and you could say, well, 743 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 1: maybe in that case a person just mutilated a cow, 744 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: like for some reason, some person did that, and then 745 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: they say, but a person couldn't have done what we 746 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: saw in this other case. So the problem would be 747 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,879 Speaker 1: you were assuming these are all cattle mutilation phenomenon, which 748 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: mentally makes them all the same thing, which makes you 749 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: assume they must all have the same cause. And because 750 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,720 Speaker 1: there's no one explanation that fits all of them, therefore 751 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: there's no way to explain the phenomenon. Yeah, and I 752 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: think this might this This is interesting because I think 753 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: it's also could help explain why, despite government conspiracies and 754 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: government tests and black helicopters being the primary detail of 755 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: the script UH in the nineties seventies, why it seems 756 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,359 Speaker 1: to have drifted more towards the alien UH explanation in 757 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: like modern conspiracy treatment of it. Because yeah, if you 758 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 1: if you start saying again like you were saying, well, 759 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: if it can't if you can't be a person here, 760 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: but it, but it, you know, maybe could be here, 761 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,800 Speaker 1: Like you eventually reach a point where the idea that 762 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 1: it's government agents doesn't even fit anymore. You have to 763 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: go entirely into the unseen world. You have to go 764 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: entirely into the realm of either elves or aliens. Yeah, 765 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: And I think the the impulse to say, well, it 766 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 1: has to be aliens really arises from the ones where, uh, 767 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, the details people describe in the reports seem 768 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: to defy the laws of physics at least as you know, understood, 769 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 1: Like so the ones where they say, like there was 770 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: not a single drop of blood on the ground. I 771 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: don't know what to make of those cases. I don't 772 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: think it. I don't think you're justified in jumping yet 773 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: to it must be aliens. I think it's more likely 774 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,720 Speaker 1: to say, maybe there's something you don't quite understand about 775 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: the way this scene is reported, or how exactly the 776 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: decomposition of an animal works, And that seems more likely 777 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,240 Speaker 1: to me. But who knows, you know, I'm not all knowing. 778 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: But uh, anyway, to come back to my summary thoughts 779 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: on this, I personally think it makes the most sense, 780 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 1: when looking at this whole thing, to say cattle mutilation 781 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: is actually just a rouping of diverse instances of dead 782 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: animals with various injuries that have a number of different causes. 783 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: So some might be the work of natural predators and scavengers, 784 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 1: some might be animals that died of disease and simply 785 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,279 Speaker 1: decomposed in a way that looked odd. Some might be 786 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: struck by lightning, some were actually mutilated by people for 787 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,359 Speaker 1: whatever reason, and some might have explanations we haven't thought 788 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: of yet. Yeah, and I want to get here, and 789 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 1: we're not gonna spend as much time with this, but 790 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: I do want to touch on ostension as a way 791 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: of potentially understanding these cases, these few cases where human 792 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: acts seem to have been involved, where humans seem to 793 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 1: have come along and potentially uh carved up some of 794 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: these animals um post mortem to sort of prop up 795 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: the myth, prop up the legend. And I was treating 796 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 1: about this potential angle and death by folklore extension contemporary 797 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: legend and murdered by Bill Ellis again. That's published eighty 798 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: nine Western It's Folklore Society, and he discusses a quote 799 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: third dimension of the legendary Elis writes, quote Folklore's disagree 800 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: about whether legends describe events that actually did or did 801 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: not happen in the past, but in the light of 802 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 1: recent events and scholarship, it seems more accurate to describe 803 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 1: legends as normative definitions of reality. Maps by which one 804 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: can determine what has happened, what is happening, and what 805 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,280 Speaker 1: will happen. I think that's incredibly perceptive and very well 806 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: put that in a way. When people are arguing about 807 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: the truth of a legend, often you know it takes 808 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: the form of arguing about whether or not something literally 809 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 1: did or did not happen at a particular time in 810 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 1: the past. But that's not really the spirit of what 811 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 1: they're arguing about. Often the spirit of what they're arguing 812 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: about is is this story reflective of how things are 813 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,720 Speaker 1: in the world. Ellis cites the work of folkloreist Linda 814 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,799 Speaker 1: dag and I hope I'm getting that right. If or not, 815 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,359 Speaker 1: I apologize and Andrew Asan who contend that quote not 816 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: only can facts be turned into narratives, but narratives can 817 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 1: also be turned into facts, and so in this we 818 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: get into austension theory. Uh. These two authors were the 819 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: first to use austension in folklore, but the idea in 820 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:19,680 Speaker 1: communication theory goes back further. Um Umberto Echo discussed it 821 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 1: in A Theory of Semiotics from nine but even in 822 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:26,840 Speaker 1: that I was looking up some of his his writings 823 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,360 Speaker 1: in that book about this topic and even that he's 824 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: he's citing Wittgenstein. So, um, I'm not not sure where 825 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 1: we are, how far back we trace this discussion, but uh, 826 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,360 Speaker 1: Echo writes, quote austension occurs when a given object or event, 827 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: produced by nature or human action, intentionally or unintentionally, and 828 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,320 Speaker 1: existing in a world of fact among facts, is quote 829 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 1: unquote picked up by someone and shown as the expression 830 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: of the class of which it is a member. And 831 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,320 Speaker 1: so Echo uses examples in the books such as showing 832 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,239 Speaker 1: a brand of cigarettes or showing a shoe and you 833 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: and you know, you might be conveying something like, uh, 834 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,239 Speaker 1: the shoe is dirty or I need more of these cigarettes, 835 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Ah, but I can see how 836 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: this would apply to folklore and even to uh, to 837 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 1: fringe beliefs and conspiracy theories, and that uh, you know, 838 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,280 Speaker 1: when you believe very much in sort of a story 839 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: about something that recurs in the world or a way 840 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 1: the world is you, you don't just believe in the 841 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: instances of it that you already know about. You want 842 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: to like show new instances of that event as exemplars 843 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: of the fact that the the overall arc, the overall 844 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 1: narrative really does take place yeah, and it's kind of 845 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,399 Speaker 1: it's kind of difficult to think about this because it's 846 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,719 Speaker 1: you know you, I kind of waver on interpreting it 847 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,839 Speaker 1: as like how much of it is so is sort 848 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: of subconscious? How much of it is conscious? Not to 849 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: say that it's entirely subconscious, but like, how much of 850 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 1: it is the conscious dimension of the act and how 851 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,239 Speaker 1: much is the subconscious um. So, to explain things better, 852 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: Ellis brings up examples of folkloric ostensive actions such as 853 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: legend tripping. So going to or engaging in acts that 854 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 1: are said to elicit a supernatural response. So going out 855 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,759 Speaker 1: and setting on railroad tracks at night, by the way, 856 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,160 Speaker 1: do not do that generally. I think it's in many 857 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,319 Speaker 1: of not most cases, it may be illegal to set 858 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 1: on those railroad tracks in addition to being dangerous. So um, 859 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: but doing things like that, hanking three times looking for crypto, 860 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,720 Speaker 1: it's going on a bigfoot search. Uh. These are all 861 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,240 Speaker 1: potentially examples of legend tripping. They're all essentially benign acts 862 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:38,799 Speaker 1: for the most part. No one is going to get 863 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 1: hurt because you went out and search for bigfoot. And 864 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: doing this search doesn't rule out the monster but fuels 865 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 1: the legend, like nobody has ever gone out searching for 866 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,160 Speaker 1: Bigfoot and then said, well, we didn't find him. I 867 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: just don't believe in it anymore. And to be fair though, 868 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,839 Speaker 1: of course I'm not advocating the existence of squatch here, 869 00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: but you know, you need to say, you need to 870 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 1: keep in mind search spaces like if you went out 871 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,560 Speaker 1: looking for Bigfoot, even if Bigfoot really existed, would you 872 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,280 Speaker 1: expect to find him on one trip into the woods. 873 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,080 Speaker 1: Probably not. Yeah, So this is where things going to 874 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,839 Speaker 1: do like darker shades of folklore, and Ellis discusses such 875 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: things as food tampering and ritual murder, but he also 876 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 1: brings up the cattle mutilation of phenomenon or cattle mutilation 877 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,840 Speaker 1: panic at one point in the article, focusing on cult 878 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,440 Speaker 1: interpretations of the crime, which we already discussed some of 879 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,839 Speaker 1: those that were brought up in the other sources, as 880 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 1: well as some really out there statements from a couple 881 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,799 Speaker 1: of Texas inmates at the time who said that it 882 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: was an elaborate satanic undertaking by cultists. Uh. He also 883 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 1: points to other nineteen seventy six reports of animal mutilations 884 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,520 Speaker 1: cattle and other animals, some of which involved reports of 885 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,560 Speaker 1: black robe figures and all the usual bells and whistles 886 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,759 Speaker 1: of of cult activity. Uh. There were, of course no 887 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,719 Speaker 1: firsthand accounts of any of this, but these were the 888 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: stories that were circulating. Was there a sacred bejeweled dagger? 889 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 1: So Ellis stresses that these rumors and legends reflect they 890 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 1: quote complex assortment of deliberate acts, misinterpreted evidence, and exaggeration. 891 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,719 Speaker 1: And he writes that while logic neatly handles all the 892 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:20,400 Speaker 1: challenges of the mystery, quasi extension plays the key role here. 893 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,840 Speaker 1: Quote the observer's interpretation of puzzling evidence in terms of 894 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: a narrative tradition. So if if you're prepared to find 895 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: evidence of X, then you will find evidence of X. 896 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,040 Speaker 1: If you go out looking for Bigfoot, yeah you may 897 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 1: you're not gonna fa see him, but you're probably gonna 898 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,560 Speaker 1: there's a good chance you'll find something. Right, if you 899 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,120 Speaker 1: find some hair, well that might be bigfoot. Here, there's 900 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,400 Speaker 1: some bigfoot for right there. Uh, you know some other 901 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,480 Speaker 1: strange mark. If you go looking for star jelly in 902 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 1: the woods, you'll find star jelly. But then human actors, 903 00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,040 Speaker 1: he writes, can insert themselves into a given script by 904 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,560 Speaker 1: engaging in in acts of extension like legend tripping, which 905 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,560 Speaker 1: sounds like a potential way to understand those few incidents 906 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:03,040 Speaker 1: of cattle mutilation which human activity may have been involved. Uh, 907 00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,080 Speaker 1: and there's I want to read one last quote from 908 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 1: Ellice here that I thought was particularly creepy and very 909 00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,960 Speaker 1: seasonal quote. In contemporary times too, legends about satanic murder 910 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,560 Speaker 1: and cattle mutilation are not just expressions of fictive horror. 911 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 1: They are paradigms for making the world more horrifying. The 912 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,520 Speaker 1: haunted house and the outside world are always in danger 913 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,080 Speaker 1: of merging. I guess that's true. It is up to 914 00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,319 Speaker 1: humans not to decide to make them merge by by 915 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:36,080 Speaker 1: acting out a legend or or or dangerous fiction in reality. Yeah, 916 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 1: because I mean, we have to remind ourselves that a 917 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,240 Speaker 1: lot of these dangerous fictions they're not just idle fascinations 918 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 1: or or they're they're not necessarily idle fascinations. Like certainly 919 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,439 Speaker 1: you can have an idle fascination with with any number 920 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,840 Speaker 1: of conspiracy theories, certainly, But where these things seem to 921 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 1: have more attraction is where like one's um you know, 922 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,120 Speaker 1: personal identity or um or view of the entire world 923 00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,319 Speaker 1: becomes wrapped up in that thing. Uh. That seems to 924 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,760 Speaker 1: be the area where you get some real potential for 925 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,520 Speaker 1: for danger. That's where the haunted house in their outside 926 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,120 Speaker 1: world can potentially merge. All right, well, we're gonna go 927 00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,080 Speaker 1: and close out the episode right here, but we'd love 928 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,440 Speaker 1: to hear from everyone out there. Obviously, this is a 929 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 1: topic of much rumination in some circles, and some of 930 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,239 Speaker 1: you might have read some other sources that you know, 931 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,880 Speaker 1: you might have some examples of faulty logic on this 932 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,360 Speaker 1: that would be interesting to share. You might have some 933 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,800 Speaker 1: some examples of some very strong points or or or 934 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,000 Speaker 1: a counter arguments. Also just other theories because some of 935 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,520 Speaker 1: them the material out there. We we looked at a 936 00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,719 Speaker 1: particular recent documentary in which the another idea was brought 937 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,239 Speaker 1: up that large ranches where the we're the cause of this, 938 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,840 Speaker 1: like big ranchers were targeting the small ranches, and I 939 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: had not heard that. I didn't see that. That That wasn't 940 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,800 Speaker 1: mentioned as a possibility in the sources I was looking at, 941 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,360 Speaker 1: and I certainly don't think that was the case, but 942 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,120 Speaker 1: I did think it was interesting because it does it 943 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,080 Speaker 1: does fit in with the um the sort of socioeconomic 944 00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,000 Speaker 1: setting of the time of the mid nineties seventies. You 945 00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,800 Speaker 1: know the idea that again it is the struggling, smaller rancher, 946 00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,120 Speaker 1: that is, that is feeling the pain and is reporting 947 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: these incidents. So it would make sense that at least 948 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:15,640 Speaker 1: some of them might say, well, I think it's these 949 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,680 Speaker 1: big ranches that are doing it. Like you can see 950 00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,279 Speaker 1: why that script would would gain traction, is what I'm saying. Yes, 951 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,480 Speaker 1: it's an interesting premise. Unfortunately, that document in particular, I 952 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,880 Speaker 1: think is the result of a government conspiracy. It was 953 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,280 Speaker 1: designed in a lab in order to reduce people's critical 954 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 1: thinking faculties. All right, well, we'd love to hear from 955 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 1: everyone out there if you haven't and have some critical analysis, uh, 956 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,839 Speaker 1: or if anyone out there has, if you have ties 957 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,520 Speaker 1: to the ranching world and have some insight, we'd love 958 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 1: to hear from you. You know, any everything's about it's 959 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,560 Speaker 1: a uh feel free to write in in the meantime. 960 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:47,759 Speaker 1: Core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind publish on 961 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,480 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to Blow your Mind 962 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,240 Speaker 1: podcast feed on Monday's. We do listener mail. On Wednesday's 963 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 1: we do a short form uh monster fact or artifact, 964 00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:57,359 Speaker 1: and on Fridays we do weird how cinema. That's our 965 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,279 Speaker 1: time to set aside most concerns, serious concerns, just talk 966 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,360 Speaker 1: about a weird film. In this Friday, we have a 967 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,839 Speaker 1: weird one that is also a cattle mutilation film. UM. 968 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,000 Speaker 1: I think it'll be a fun episode. Huge thanks as 969 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,560 Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If 970 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,080 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with 971 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,680 Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 972 00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:17,640 Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 973 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,279 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 974 00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:30,520 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production 975 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,320 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 976 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,200 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 977 00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:42,960 Speaker 1: you're listening to your favorite shows.