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Speaker 1: You're listening to Body Bags on the Crime Online podcast Network.

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Speaker 1: Subscribe to Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Body Bags with Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. I love travel. That's something I've got to

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Speaker 1: confess to you. I probably value now at this point

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Speaker 1: in my life travel more than I do any kind

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Speaker 1: of material possessions that I might have or have had

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Speaker 1: at any one time in my life. My wife and

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Speaker 1: I were ready to go to second's Notice, and as

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Speaker 1: Tom has progressed, I carried less stuff with me. I

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Speaker 1: find that I need less stuff. But with that said,

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Speaker 1: I've got a got a particular bag. I like to use,

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Speaker 1: a suitcase. It's generally the only thing I carry other

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Speaker 1: than you know, maybe a book bag. And it took

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Speaker 1: me some time to figure out which one I actually

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Speaker 1: wanted for the purpose that I had to carry the

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Speaker 1: stuff I needed. You know, Today on Bodybags, we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about a case that might be as troubling

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Speaker 1: as anything that I have seen, a case involving a

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Speaker 1: man who's closed up in a suitcase and loses his life.

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Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about the homicide of Horey

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Speaker 1: Torre's junior. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. Wow.

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Speaker 1: I watched a video recently that just chilled me to

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Speaker 1: my apps lute core. I don't know in recent memory

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Speaker 1: that I have seen anything like this, and it was

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Speaker 1: I think at least the last throws of a man's

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Speaker 1: life that died right before our eyes, or was in

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Speaker 1: the middle of dying. Jackie Howard, my good friend, executive

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Speaker 1: producer with Nancy Grace Crime Stories. Jackie, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've seen this video. As my friend, I would

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Speaker 1: prefer that you don't watch it, but I gotta tell

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Speaker 1: you it is absolutely horrific. It is and unfortunately I

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Speaker 1: have seen it, but I did cut it off. It

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Speaker 1: was more than I really wanted to remember. It's one

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Speaker 1: of those things you can't unsee or unhear. Jorge Torres,

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Speaker 1: after a night of drinking with his girlfriend, was convinced

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Speaker 1: that it would be funny to crawl inside a suitcase

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Speaker 1: and be zipped inside, and that's what happened. Torres begged

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Speaker 1: to be let out, but wasn't. His girlfriend recording it

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Speaker 1: on her phone, laughing and Torres begging, crying out to

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Speaker 1: be released, that he couldn't breathe, that he was having trouble.

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Speaker 1: The girlfriend, Sarah Boone, went upstairs to bed, and the

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Speaker 1: next morning woke up and Torres was still inside the

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Speaker 1: suitcase and unresponsive. He died. What did he die? Up?

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Speaker 1: Lack of oxygen? What is his cause of death? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in a words, it was lack of oxygen. But there's

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Speaker 1: kind of a fine line, you know, when you begin

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Speaker 1: to think about lack of auction. There's any number of

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Speaker 1: ways that an individual can asphyxiate, and we certainly talked

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Speaker 1: about quite a number of those over our episodes here

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Speaker 1: on Bodybacks. You know, I think you know this is

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Speaker 1: an asphyxial death. However, it's not in a classic sense

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Speaker 1: where you begin to think about manual stringulation or ligature strangulation,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. This is a unique type of

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Speaker 1: death that is actually called positional asphyxia. And essentially what

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Speaker 1: that means, I want everybody to kind of if you

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Speaker 1: can take your arms and cross them across your chest

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Speaker 1: and squeeze as tightly as you can and breathe in

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Speaker 1: and breathe out, and continue to tighten every time you exhalate.

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Speaker 1: That means the blow your air out, Tighten, tighten your

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Speaker 1: arms across your chest even more every single time. And

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Speaker 1: that is kind of what positional asphyxia is like. And

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Speaker 1: the body or the decedent had to have been in

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Speaker 1: a compromised position. And you know, we're talking about a suitcase.

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Speaker 1: Everybody can imagine the dimensions of a larger suitcase. Remember,

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Speaker 1: this is a grown man, so he has to fit within.

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Speaker 1: It's a soft sided suit case that zips up, but

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Speaker 1: still you have to fit within that space. And so

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Speaker 1: every time he would breathe out, he would become more

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Speaker 1: and more contracted in that space, particularly as he begins

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Speaker 1: to panic. I don't know if you've ever had this

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Speaker 1: happen when you were a small child, Jackie, but if

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Speaker 1: you had older siblings or cousins and you guys were

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Speaker 1: rough housing and you were kind of the person that

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Speaker 1: was on the bottom on the floor, Yeah, like pickpile,

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Speaker 1: you know they talk about a pickpile. And also if

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Speaker 1: you if you have someone to get you in a

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Speaker 1: bear hug, you know, and you begin to kind of

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Speaker 1: have this chest compression that's going in. You're confined, and

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Speaker 1: you can imagine the panic that sets in in this

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Speaker 1: kind of circumstance. So, long story short, what they actually

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Speaker 1: ruled his death as is asphyxia as a result of

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Speaker 1: positional asphyxia. We've talked about positional asphyxiation related to hazing

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Speaker 1: cases where for ernity, brothers have had a party and

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Speaker 1: the pledges have been forced to drink a large amount

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Speaker 1: of alcohol. They pass out or fall on the floor,

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Speaker 1: and then they die from positional asphyxiation because they fall

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Speaker 1: or slump over and then their lungs can't expand enough

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Speaker 1: to breathe. So is that the same type of thing

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Speaker 1: you're talking about here. Yeah, it's the same same principle.

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Speaker 1: And generally there's some type of anebriation that is involved

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Speaker 1: where an individual is either going to be anebriated or

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Speaker 1: drunk on alcohol, or you might have drugs involved. And

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, over the course of my career,

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Speaker 1: the most common that I encounter were actually heroin overdoses.

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Speaker 1: And the reason is is that heroin has this sedative

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Speaker 1: quality to it and it depresses the system. Alcohol to

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Speaker 1: us as a system, but haroin in particular depressed as

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Speaker 1: a system, and you become very drowsy, you know, and

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Speaker 1: cases that I remember are people that would fix on

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Speaker 1: a toilet, say, for instance, sit there and heat their

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Speaker 1: you know, heat their bullets of heroin up drawed up

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Speaker 1: and injected you know, into their arm where they have

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Speaker 1: a tourniquet in place, and as they get drowsy, they

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Speaker 1: fall off the toilet and slip between the toilet and

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Speaker 1: the wall. Well, that's positional as fix it because first off,

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Speaker 1: they're compromised at a toxicological perspective where they have this

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Speaker 1: drug on board and they can't move and they're not

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Speaker 1: aware that they need to move. And then just from

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Speaker 1: a mechanical you know, like if you think about the

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Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system that tells our hard to beat and

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Speaker 1: all those things that we don't have to think about,

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Speaker 1: the autonomic nervous system can't compensate for that. It can't

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Speaker 1: tell you to breathe more rapidly or more shallow, or

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Speaker 1: whatever the case might be. So you get in this

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Speaker 1: compromised position, you can't uptake oxygen, and we know what happens.

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Speaker 1: What happens is is that your brain begins to shut

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Speaker 1: down because it's not receiving the volume of oxygen that

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Speaker 1: is required. And what is the volume of oxygen that

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Speaker 1: your brain requires. It has to be sufficient to the

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Speaker 1: task at that particular time. The uptake of the oxygen

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Speaker 1: has to it has to be counterbalanced with the amount

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Speaker 1: of carbon dioxide that you have in your system, so

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Speaker 1: you don't want to be for instance, there's this idea

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Speaker 1: of rebreathing. For instance, if you're in a confined space,

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Speaker 1: and I think that this may have happened to Hoorhey.

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Speaker 1: When you're rebreathing, as you excelate, you're not blowing out oxygen, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're blowing out carbon dioxide. So there's an imbalance that

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Speaker 1: occurs there, particularly if you're in a confined space like this.

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Speaker 1: So your uptake of available air is primarily comprised of

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Speaker 1: carbon dioxide, which is a waste product that's coming out

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Speaker 1: of your body your rebreathing in that and so it

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Speaker 1: gets out of balance with the oxygen and so the

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Speaker 1: brain begins to scream because it's oxygen deprived. It is

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Speaker 1: a case of oxygen deprivation. I gotta tell you there

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Speaker 1: was a public service advertisement that used to come on,

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Speaker 1: you know, way back when dinosaurs are on the Earth,

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Speaker 1: and I was a little boy, and it really stuck

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Speaker 1: with me, and I'm sure that some of our listeners

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Speaker 1: have probably seen this, but there used to be a

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Speaker 1: problem with kids playing hide and seek, and they would

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Speaker 1: go and they would play hide and seek in vacant lots,

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Speaker 1: and what they would do is crawling side of empty

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Speaker 1: or indiscarded refrigerators and they would shut the door behind them.

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Speaker 1: And you know, back then in those days, you had

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Speaker 1: an exterior latch on the refrigerator, so you couldn't get out,

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Speaker 1: and it's got this rubber gasket that seals it. So

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Speaker 1: once all of that oxygen is gone in that tiny space.

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Speaker 1: Remember the space within an area like a suitcase or

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Speaker 1: refrigerator is not measured in square feet. It's measured in

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Speaker 1: cubic inches, all right, So that's how much oxygen you have.

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Speaker 1: It disappears very quickly as your body demands it, so

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Speaker 1: that supply just is non existent essentially, So you're attempting

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Speaker 1: to uptake something that's not there, and that that is

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Speaker 1: there that you're bringing into your body is pure poison.

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Speaker 1: What does the oxygen deprivation lack of oxygen due to

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Speaker 1: your body. As you mentioned earlier, we've all either whether

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Speaker 1: we're choking, playing with somebody and they've got to set

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Speaker 1: a chokehold, and you're in a bad position and you

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Speaker 1: can't breathe. We all know that panic about not being

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Speaker 1: able to breathe, and you reference that earlier. But what

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Speaker 1: does that lack of oxygen actually do to your body?

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Speaker 1: It has to affect everything differently. I think that probably

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Speaker 1: the most obvious response that you see if you're like,

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Speaker 1: if you've ever seen anybody that's having like a panic

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Speaker 1: attack where they can't control their breathing, they begin to

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Speaker 1: shallow breathe, they get lightheaded, that sort of thing. Imagine

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Speaker 1: that Tom's you know fifty if you're running out of auction.

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Speaker 1: You know, with panic attacks, most of the time people

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Speaker 1: are in a wide open space and they can breathe,

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Speaker 1: there's auction available, but their mind has got them in

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Speaker 1: such a state that they begin to panic and shallow breathe. Well,

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Speaker 1: in the reality that Jorhe faced in this particular circumstance,

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Speaker 1: he would have had this kind of primal response. Keep

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Speaker 1: in mind, right above your kidneys, bilaterally, there are two glands,

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Speaker 1: they're the adrenal glands, and they're sitting there and it's

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Speaker 1: fight or flight, baby. And when that adrenaline starts to

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Speaker 1: pump into your system. Your body is screaming out it

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Speaker 1: needs to do something, It needs to do something superhuman

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Speaker 1: in this particular instance. And the more you begin to panic,

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Speaker 1: the more fuel you need. And if you think of

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Speaker 1: oxygen as fuel, you're needing more and more of it

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Speaker 1: in order to function and in order to increase strength, speed,

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Speaker 1: all of those sorts of things. And can you imagine

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Speaker 1: being inside of this thing and you can't get out,

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Speaker 1: And he's fighting in this environment as best he can,

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Speaker 1: struggling and with every turn of his body, with every

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Speaker 1: shout because you can hear him, you know, on the videotape,

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Speaker 1: every time he shouts out to his girlfriend, he's using

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Speaker 1: available oxygen at that point in time, and he continues

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Speaker 1: to shallow breathe. So the more shallow you breathe, the

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Speaker 1: more oxygen you're burning through. At that point in time.

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Speaker 1: There's probably going to be an associated terrible headache that

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Speaker 1: comes along with this. Blood pressure is going to rise significantly,

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Speaker 1: it's going to spike, and your lungs also will become

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Speaker 1: markedly heavy. You'll have a fluid build up in your

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Speaker 1: lungs as a response to this. So anything and everything

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Speaker 1: that could go wrong in this particular circumstance from a

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Speaker 1: physiological standpoint, goes wrong for your body if you have

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Speaker 1: any chance of surviving. Let me tell you something. They'll

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Speaker 1: have old black and white movies on television, or these

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Speaker 1: film clips of people like Harry Houdini, you know, and

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Speaker 1: they're they're bound up, or they're placed in a safe

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is, and they they're attempting to get out.

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Speaker 1: I can watch that and begin to panic. I don't

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Speaker 1: like small spaces. And can you imagine if you don't

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Speaker 1: like small spaces, suddenly finding yourself in this environment, and

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Speaker 1: no matter what you do, how much you scream, how

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Speaker 1: much you claw, you cannot free yourself from this prison

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Speaker 1: as you found yourself in sudden But what does it

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Speaker 1: actually do to your body? You touched a little bit

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Speaker 1: on it? Your lungs get heavy. But we were talking

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Speaker 1: about the brain. So when we have strangulation, we know

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Speaker 1: that we get potiguie, we get blood vessels that burn.

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Speaker 1: But when it's just lack of oxygen for what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about here, does that do anything to the brain

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Speaker 1: cells to shut it down? Yeah? It does, actually, and

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Speaker 1: you will see there'll be sometimes you'll have a fluid

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Speaker 1: build up with the brain to the brain will become

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Speaker 1: more heavy, and sometimes it's not as appreciable as it

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Speaker 1: is in the lungs, but you'll have this subsequent build up,

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Speaker 1: a fluid congestion, if you will. And many times there

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Speaker 1: have been cases of positional asphyxia as well, where you'll

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Speaker 1: have PATIKII because the pressure is building up. You'll certainly

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Speaker 1: see and here's something that many people might not know.

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Speaker 1: We always talk about potichi over the mucous surfaces like

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Speaker 1: in the eye, and you'll hear about it along the

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Speaker 1: gum line too. We see it inside the lips and

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Speaker 1: on the gum line itself. You know, relative to strangulation,

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Speaker 1: do you know that you also get patiki on the

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Speaker 1: surface of the lungs as well. There's so much pressure

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Speaker 1: involved in this that you'll have these little vessels that

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Speaker 1: will burst in what's called the interstitial tissue, and that's

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Speaker 1: kind of the bit of tissue that is out away

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Speaker 1: from the vessels. And because the vessels kind of leach

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Speaker 1: out or they kind of burst, and then it spreads

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Speaker 1: out into the interstitial tissue, you'll see those little focal

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Speaker 1: areas of hemorrhage in there as well. So probably back

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Speaker 1: to the brain. One of the things that you're going

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Speaker 1: to see specifically is that there will be this congestion

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Speaker 1: of the brain, and many times, Jackie, many times this

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Speaker 1: will also lead to a seizure. Because the brain activity

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Speaker 1: is so skewed at this point in time, the brain

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Speaker 1: essentially goes into a shutdown itself and the individual will

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Speaker 1: many times wind up having a fatal seizure. Do the

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Speaker 1: brain cells explode or shrivel? I mean, I guess I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to understand what it is about the lack of oxygen.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we all know we have to have oxygen

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Speaker 1: to survive, but how is it that the lack of

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Speaker 1: oxygen just makes you die? I think that this is

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Speaker 1: important to remember is that the brain, as we've touched

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Speaker 1: on before, is the most vascular organ in the body.

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Speaker 1: And what that means is that it has the most

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Speaker 1: blood supply. Okay, so we have to ask ourselves this

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Speaker 1: question why and hate why. But let's say, what is

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Speaker 1: the purpose of this incredible blood supply that the brain has. Well,

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Speaker 1: the answer to that question is the fact that it

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Speaker 1: has a super demand for oxygen because of all of

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Speaker 1: the functions that it carries out. So when you begin

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Speaker 1: to think about why somebody would die as a result

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Speaker 1: of say a seizure or the brain would get congested,

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Speaker 1: just think about the fact that it is. In some people,

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Speaker 1: some old timers, particularly relative to forensic pathology, they'll talk

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Speaker 1: about strangulation of oxygen to the brain, and it's just

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Speaker 1: kind of a euphemistic term that they're saying, and what

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Speaker 1: they're meaning is that the brain itself has been depleted

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Speaker 1: of oxygen many times and sometimes as well. And this

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Speaker 1: is kind of fascinating from the standpoint of looking at

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Speaker 1: the brain. What we refer to is grossly gross, not

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Speaker 1: in the sense of, oh, that's gross, but grossly means

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Speaker 1: with the unaided eye, like when you take a look

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Speaker 1: at it after it's been removed at autopsy. The brain

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Speaker 1: will be heavy because it's congested. But the other thing

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Speaker 1: is is that it will have kind of a kind

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Speaker 1: of a blanched appearance to it because of lack of

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Speaker 1: oxygenated blood that has been going to it, So it'll

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Speaker 1: have more of a pale appearance to it as opposed

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Speaker 1: to the kind of healthy pink color that it has.

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Speaker 1: You know, people talk about gray matter and white matter

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Speaker 1: and all of that, and that is true. But the

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Speaker 1: brain has kind of a pinkish hue to it, you know,

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Speaker 1: when it's removed. And most of the time that's a

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Speaker 1: sign of a healthy brain. But when you see one

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Speaker 1: that has kind of got this kind of pale discoloration

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Speaker 1: to it, it's one of the things that you have

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Speaker 1: to think about relative of the oxygen supply. I'm an

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Speaker 1: old army guy. The reason I was in the army

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Speaker 1: is because I couldn't serve on a submarine. There is

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Speaker 1: no way I think that that that service in particular

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Speaker 1: is probably one of the bravest things anybody can do

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Speaker 1: from my perspective, because it absolutely terrifies me. The idea

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Speaker 1: of running out of oxygen. It sends a chill up

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Speaker 1: and down my spine. And I have friends that were

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Speaker 1: they like to call themselves sub mariners. That would never

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Speaker 1: be for me, Jackie, well for me either. I was

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Speaker 1: a lifeguard for many, many years, and you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the things lifeguards like to do is work on

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Speaker 1: how long they can hold their breath. But the idea

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Speaker 1: of that I have caught myself while we're sitting here talking.

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Speaker 1: I have called myself making a point to take deep

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Speaker 1: breath simply because what you're saying to me is almost

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Speaker 1: putting me into the panic mode that you were talking about.

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Speaker 1: I mean, making myself consciously take deep breaths, so I

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Speaker 1: can imagine if I really couldn't breathe, what kind of

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Speaker 1: a panic I would be in. Don't worry about that.

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Speaker 1: Your autonomic nervous system is going to take care of that.

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Speaker 1: You're going to continue to breathe. We're gonna make it

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Speaker 1: through this, I promise you. That's good to know. It's

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Speaker 1: absolutely terrifying, and I can't emphasize that enough. And that's

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Speaker 1: what grabbed me about this case and the reason I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk about it. It's not that often, I

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Speaker 1: think in forensics that you come across something like this

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Speaker 1: because it's so unique, it's so unusual. There have been

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Speaker 1: cases over the years, I think, where people have famously

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Speaker 1: been kidnapped, for instance, and you know they've been placed

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Speaker 1: into a coffin alive, for instance, and kidnapper will say, listen,

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Speaker 1: we'll tell you where the person is if you give

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Speaker 1: us the money, and that sort of thing, and again,

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Speaker 1: my blood pressure begins to go up at that point.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely terrifying. And I think that that's what struck

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Speaker 1: me with this case. Because there's so much going on

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Speaker 1: physiologically in the case of Hore Torres Junior, you begin

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Speaker 1: to think about we know that he was essentially zipped

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Speaker 1: up in this suitcase, but here's something interesting. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we talked about oxygen deprivation, we talked about positional asphyxia.

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Speaker 1: But here's something that I haven't mentioned yet. Contained within

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Speaker 1: the suitcase where this man was held essentially by his

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Speaker 1: girlfriend allegedly were other items. And the police have not

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Speaker 1: released information yet regarding what those items were, but I'll

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Speaker 1: put it to you this way. What they've said is

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Speaker 1: that these other so called items that were found in

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Speaker 1: the suitcase, these things were going to be donated, you know,

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Speaker 1: like into Goodwill or Salvation Army or one of these places,

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Speaker 1: and the suitcase was just kind of sitting there waiting

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Speaker 1: to be hauled away. And the fact that he was

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Speaker 1: placed in there, not just in this space that's obviously

337
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Speaker 1: very tight and very contained, he was placed in there

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Speaker 1: with other objects. So you've got a couple of things

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Speaker 1: working here. First off, if you're trying to move your

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Speaker 1: body into a position where maybe you can breathe a

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Speaker 1: little bit better. That ability is going to be impeded

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Speaker 1: greatly by whatever items that are in there. And just

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Speaker 1: like I mentioned earlier relative to ice boxes and refrigerators

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Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, those spaces are measured in

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Speaker 1: cubic inches, very tiny spaces. Well, this space is as well.

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Speaker 1: So for every item just do the math here for

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00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,719
Speaker 1: every item that you have contained in the same space

348
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Speaker 1: with Jorge, that is going to be less of a

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00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 1: space that oxygen can actually occupy. And just let that

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Speaker 1: sink in just for a second, because now now you're

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Speaker 1: talking about a condition called oxygen displacement, which means you

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00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 1: have other things in the same space that are taking

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Speaker 1: up space and the fact that it's so tight anyway,

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Speaker 1: and he would have been struggling. I find that absolutely

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Speaker 1: fascinating and dependent upon the level of rigidity of these items, say,

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Speaker 1: for instances, say it's a couple of candlesticks or I

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Speaker 1: don't know what's in there, a couple of candlesticks, maybe

358
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Speaker 1: a few old toys. If these things are rigid, and

359
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Speaker 1: can you imagine the pain that would be associated with that,

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Speaker 1: in addition to trying to move and being in this

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Speaker 1: already highly agitated state. It again adds another layer of

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Speaker 1: terror to this. Well, let me add on to what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, Sarah Boon. Her body weight would have

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Speaker 1: even further lessened his space to breathe in and his

365
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: ability to breathe. Well, here we go. We've got another

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Speaker 1: type of asphyxia to talk about now, because now, wow,

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Speaker 1: how many are we up to? Now? Now you're we're

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Speaker 1: talking about something called compression asphyxia. Compression and positional or

369
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Speaker 1: not the same thing. No, it's not, it is not.

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Speaker 1: People can say that it is, I suppose, but they're

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Speaker 1: they're kind of delineated generally, if you think about positional asphyxia,

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Speaker 1: most of the time folks will think about somebody that

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Speaker 1: is in a contracted position and they're unable to kind

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Speaker 1: of extend their body to the point where they can breathe. Say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, like like mister Torres, if you're in a

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Speaker 1: fetal position, which we would have to assume that he

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00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 1: probably was, with his knees drawn up, his back curled

378
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Speaker 1: almost in a tortoiselike you know, posture, arms tucked perhaps

379
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Speaker 1: in front of him. That's a positional event, okay, and

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Speaker 1: you can't extricate yourself from that. Now, that is different

381
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Speaker 1: than compressionist fix Ill remember how I mentioned earlier, You know,

382
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Speaker 1: when we're kids and we're playing around and whatnot, and

383
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: wrestling and whatnot. If people are familiar and down here

384
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: in the South, we use a term called pickpile, where

385
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: if you're the smallest one, you're on the bottom, and

386
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: you've got all of these people kind of stacking up

387
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: on top of everybody's joking around except for the person

388
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: on the bottom, of course, and you're panicking. Well, the

389
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: more weight you apply, the less of an opportunity your

390
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: chest has to expand. So let's just say, and this

391
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Speaker 1: is kind of torturous when you think about it, Let's

392
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: just say that for ten seconds, she allegedly goes over

393
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Speaker 1: to the surface of the suitcase and sits on top

394
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Speaker 1: of it, with mister Torres contained beneath her. As she's

395
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Speaker 1: sitting there, and she's teasing him, she's taunting him perhaps,

396
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: and all the while maybe she's bouncing up and down. Well,

397
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Speaker 1: every time she moves down, you know, and gravity is

398
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: going to draw her down or draw her weight down

399
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: or on him. That's going to tighten that space. But

400
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: then when she stands up let this sink in. When

401
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: she stands up, his chest can re expand at that point, okay,

402
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: and maybe he thinks that it's over. Maybe he thinks

403
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: that he's about to get out, and all of a

404
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,719
Speaker 1: sudden he starts breathing in normally or as normally as

405
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: he can the space, and then all of a sudden

406
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: she sits back down and kind of this continuous, repetitious

407
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: event like this, it kind of sneaks over into the

408
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: area of torture, because this is something that you might see,

409
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Speaker 1: for instance, in a situation, say with a torture event

410
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: from the medieval times, where they're tightening some kind of

411
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: encasement upon you. Famously, there was the fellow in the

412
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: during the Salem witch trials that he famously said because

413
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Speaker 1: he would not confess to being a witch, and they

414
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: would pile stones on him to try to get him

415
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 1: to confess. And the last words he ever uttered as

416
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: they were putting more and more weight on him was

417
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: he said, more weight because he would not confess. And

418
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: so that is compressionistphyxia. The more weight that you have

419
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: on you, the less you have as far as a

420
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: capacity for your lungs to expand. And that again adds

421
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: another layer to this that's absolutely horrific. How much does

422
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: your size play into how much weight that you could

423
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: hold in that you would still be able to breathe,

424
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: that you'd still have room. When we breathe in there's

425
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 1: two types of breathing. Whether people realize it or not,

426
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: you have chest breathing and diaphragm breathing. When you're a

427
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: singer or you're a public speaker, you breathe from the

428
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: diaphragm because it gives you greater wind volume. When your

429
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: lungs expand inside your chest, they don't have a lot

430
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: of room, but there still is some room. So how

431
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: much does your chest have to be compressed or unable

432
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: to expand for this type of asphyxiation to happen. I

433
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: think that it would take a pretty detailed study in

434
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: order to come up with a specific number. But let's

435
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: just kind of begin to factor it like this. You

436
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: begin to think, you know, the larger the person you are.

437
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: First off, a large person is not going to be

438
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: able to fit inside of that suitcase. To begin with,

439
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: I'm making no bones about it. I got a fifty

440
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: inch chest and so there's no way I could fit

441
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: inside of that suitcase. Okay, there's no way a smaller

442
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: person might could. And a lot of it's going to

443
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: have to deal with your muscle density, how much oxygen

444
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: your muscles require, and how much muscle you have on you. Also,

445
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,719
Speaker 1: are you compromised at all physiologically. Let's say, for instance,

446
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: that mister Torres was a smoker. For instance, his lung

447
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: capacity is going to be diminished as a result of this,

448
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: so he's he's not going to have the ability to

449
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: respire like many people might. For instance. It would be

450
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: very difficult to actually get an accurate measurement on that though.

451
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 1: But when you begin to couple that with also this

452
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: kind of specter that's lingering in the background. In this case,

453
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: these people were both inebriated, they had both been drinking,

454
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: and she admits that they had knocked off a bottle

455
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: of chardonnay that night, and so alcohol is going to

456
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: play a factor in this as well. Well, that was

457
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: my next question, Joe, how much does alcohol play into this,

458
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: impacting his ability to breathe? We know it is a depressant.

459
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, Jackie, it is a depressant. And obviously

460
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: we've seen people that have been been drunk and they've

461
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: become violent. You know, I've certainly witnessed the end result

462
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: of that many times on cases i've worked. It doesn't

463
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: necessarily make everybody go to sleep. I've got, you know,

464
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: friends that will say, well, all it takes from me

465
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: is one class of wine. I'm passed out in the corner.

466
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: And I'll have other friends that will say, well, you know,

467
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: don't don't put any tequila near me. I'm going to

468
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: wind up ripping the place apart. But it is a depressant,

469
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: and it does impact the lungs and your ability as

470
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: a result of the impact of the alcohol to uptake oxygen,

471
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: and it will compromise your ability to breathe. So when

472
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: you couple that with this kind of compromised physical condition

473
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: that you're in, and then you introduce this into your system,

474
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: and right now, this is kind of what we're waiting

475
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: on right now. But right now we don't know what

476
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: his blood alcohol level is. And you know, I tried

477
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: listening to this tape as as little as i as

478
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: I possibly could, but I had to go back and

479
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: listen to it, and you know, his voice, it's sounds

480
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: very shaky and kind of slurred, not. I had to think, well,

481
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: am I hearing this because he's running out of oxygen?

482
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: Or am I hearing this because he's inebriated, or is

483
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: it a combination of both. I think that it's probably

484
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: a combination of both. But the combination of the alcohol

485
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: along with compromised physical positioning in this case, it is

486
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: absolutely a recipe for death. There are certain cases I

487
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: remember from my time as an investigator where I did,

488
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: in fact find bodies in suitcases. But most of the

489
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: time when I found bodies in suitcases, they were not

490
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: completely integrated. As a matter of fact, most of the

491
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: time they had been dismembered. And in this particular case,

492
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine what the medical examiner investigator's reaction was

493
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: when they showed up the scene and you've got a

494
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: full grown man folded up inside of a suitcase. Because

495
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,719
Speaker 1: we had a full grown man inside a suitcase, he

496
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: had some other injuries. What were those injuries and were

497
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: they caused by him trying to get out of the

498
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: suitcase since nobody was going to let him out. When

499
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: I heard that he had injuries on his body, that

500
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: was the first thing I'm thinking about, you know, because

501
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: I've always got this, you know, going back to this

502
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: idea of being closed spaces and how horrible this is.

503
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: You begin to think about, you know, tales of people

504
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: trying to scratch their way out of being buried alive

505
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: in coffins and all that sort of thing. You'd see

506
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: broken nails and nail marks everywhere. That's not what we're

507
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: talking about here, That is not We have to go

508
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: back and remember this is not like a hard sided suitcase.

509
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: This is a soft suitcase. Okay, it's it's made out

510
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: of fabric of some type, and it's some kind of

511
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: man made woven fabric, manufactured fabric. And you begin to think, well,

512
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: how did he get bruises on him? Because they're talking

513
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: about and they use this term specifically, they say that

514
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: he has sustained blunt force trauma. And anytime you hear that,

515
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: you've got a couple of things that you can consider.

516
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: Either these are defensive wounds where somebody's in a fight

517
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: and they're throwing their hands up or trying to get

518
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: somebody off of them. Maybe they've been struck by an

519
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: item in that sense kind of in a defensive posture,

520
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: or they're on the receiving end of being pummeled. Remember,

521
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: he had been in there for some time. Who Lord

522
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: only knows what else could have happened to him once

523
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,239
Speaker 1: he was in there. I don't think that you know

524
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: the entirety of his encapsulation and seeing was videotape. Obviously

525
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: it was. At a matter of fact, it cuts off

526
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: very suddenly. He's got blunt force trauma. And it is

527
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: within reason, it is within reason that he could have

528
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: sustained blunt force trauma at the hand of someone literally

529
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: pummeling him through this soft sided luggage. And you think

530
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: about this man is begging for his life. You can

531
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: hear him on the videotape. He's begging for his life.

532
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: He's crying out, he's asking for mercy. He's referring to

533
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: Miss Boone, continues to refer to Miss Boone as babe,

534
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: a term of affection. Babe, please let me out. I

535
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: can't breathe. I can't breathe. And he's actually verbalizing the

536
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: fact that he cannot breathe. He has an awareness that

537
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: he cannot breathe. Let that sink in just for a second.

538
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: This guy knows he's running out of oxygen. Even in

539
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: an inebriated state. He knows that he's running out of oxygen.

540
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: But yet, you know, you can hear in the video

541
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: which sounds like her, that she continues to taunt, and

542
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: so you wonder, you know, well, how how did he

543
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: come about the blunt force trauma? Was it again part

544
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: and parcel of this kind of terrorizing him As he's

545
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: encased inside of this soft sided bag, it is not

546
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: beyond reason to think that you could either be punched

547
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: through the bag or stomped on or bounced upon. And

548
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: keep in mind, he's tightly pressed to the floor even

549
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: though he's contained in his bag. If he has any

550
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: space whatsoever, you might have maybe what's referred to as

551
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: a coup or contract coup injury, where you have been

552
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: struck in the head on one side and the energy

553
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: kind of travels through the brain, that energy travels to

554
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: the other side of the skull, and you might have

555
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: a concurrent area of hemorrhage on the opposite side of

556
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: the head from where you are actually struck. It's kind

557
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: of a fascinating manifestation, but we don't know that at

558
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: this point in time. But that kind of thing can

559
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: happen in this environment. And so again it's going to

560
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: be interesting to hear the forensic pathologists talk about this

561
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: at trial is coming up in November. Sarah Moon at

562
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: one point told police that Torres had been able to

563
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: stick two fingers out of the suitcase, so she thought

564
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: he'd have no problems getting himself free. And I was

565
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: thinking myself that as many times as I've used zipper

566
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: in clothes, they fail often. So wouldn't you think that

567
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: it should have been or would have been easy to

568
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: get out of the suitcase? Joe, Yeah, and there would

569
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: be evidence of that. I would think if the zipper

570
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: were in fact off of the track, they would closely

571
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: examine that zipper and you know, see if it marrys

572
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: up with the statement that you've given. The problem is,

573
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: according to the police, is that she's given a number

574
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 1: of statements and some of the stuff that she says

575
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: contradicts previous statements. And so look, this is the bottom line,

576
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: is that the science is going to win out. You

577
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 1: know when they examine the suitcase. One of the things

578
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: that they would have closely examined when they finally got

579
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: the suitcase opened up is what condition was his body in?

580
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: And you know, we've talked about injuries and all that

581
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: sort of thing. But what I'm talking about is the

582
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: changes after death. Our currency in medical legal death investigation

583
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: is time. That is our currencies, as they say, it's

584
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: the coin of rental. We try to match things up

585
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: with timelines that we're given, or we try to create

586
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: or not create. We try to assess a timeline based

587
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: upon what the science is telling us, and so depended

588
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: upon his level of rigidity in his body rigor mortis,

589
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: the settling of blood puts vunerable avidity, and certainly his

590
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: body temperature, that's going to tell us a lot. Now,

591
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: I think the body temperature will probably be skewed because

592
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: he's in this kind of contained, closed up area, So

593
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 1: I don't know that you would necessarily get a true reading,

594
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: but I think that the level of riger mortis is

595
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: going to be key here. And you know how rigid

596
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: he was at this particular time when they found him,

597
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: Because here's kind of an interesting little aside they are saying.

598
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: They are actually saying that they believe that mister Torres

599
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: was in there for possibly eleven hours. We know from

600
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: police reports that this couple had a history of domestic violence. Yeah,

601
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: going back for some time, there have been visits by

602
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: the authority out to that location as a result of

603
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: fights that were going on at the residence. When you

604
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: begin to put all of this together and you think

605
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: about what's going to come out at trial relative to

606
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: their history, I think that probably the prosecution more than

607
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: likely we'll talk about this and if this is something

608
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: else that can kind of be featured in this and

609
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: defense might use this too. If remember, in any kind

610
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: of domestic violence event, if someone has caused a bruise

611
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 1: on someone or has drawn blood, guess what the police do.

612
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: They take photographs of that, and it'll be interesting to

613
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: see if those types of photographs exist from previous events,

614
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: and if they are, if they're going to be admitted

615
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: into court, and we'll be able to kind of see

616
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: do a side by side comparison. Did she sustain any

617
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: kind of injuries in the past, maybe at the hands

618
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 1: of mister Torres, or conversely, did she have a history

619
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: of striking him and maybe when they call the cops,

620
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: cops like, you know, how'd you get that shiner? Man?

621
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: You know, why is it? Did you have a bruise

622
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: on your neck? And if those photos exist, and you'll

623
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: see those in court as well, If in fact, they

624
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: are admitted into evidence. Sarah Boone's trial, as you said Joe,

625
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: is expected to get underway in November again. She has

626
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: been charged with Torres' death. She has not been convicted.

627
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Joseph Scott Morgan and

628
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: his body bags