WEBVTT - Growth Stage Investing and Board Service w/ Ceci Kurzman 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:04.640 I'm Will Lucas and this is black tech, Green money. 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:09.880 Cc Kurrisman is a private investor, entrepreneur, and independent board member. 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:13.520 As a former music executive and talent manager, she's guided 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.480 the careers, business strategies, and brand development of many of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.080 the biggest artists on the planet. As a board member, 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.200 she either currently or has out on the boards of 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.759 directors for Revline, Circus, Dates, so Let, Warner Music Group, 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:30.560 Line Vine Grew, United Talent Agency, and more. Currently, she 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.760 leads Nexus Management Grew, a private investment company dedicated to innovative, 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.800 growth stage businesses in the consumer media and technology sectors. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:42.960 Traditional media is still being disrupted daily by innovation that 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.680 provides a platform to social media commentators and creators, but 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:49.000 many new media companies have a hard time figuring it 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.680 out also, and there are many stories of late were 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.200 well funded platforms either no longer exists or are today 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.840 not getting after it, not meeting it full potential. It 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:01.880 was all good just a week ago. As someone who's 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.039 an investor in growing media platforms, I sec to paint 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.360 a picture of what the landscape currently looks like. 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:12.039 Well, well, you know, I think some of the really 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:19.040 the downfall of some of the larger new digital media businesses. 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:24.240 I think really speaks to the venture model, which is 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:28.760 quite broken, and I think we're starting to see where 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:34.160 the cracks and the pavement are by watching not just 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:38.080 these media businesses, but some of the other tech businesses 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.280 and other businesses that I think are now suffering because 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.520 of the valuations and the enterprise values that were so 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:50.520 frovy in the last ten years and didn't really reflect 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:55.000 the strength and the solid nature of the business. And 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.920 by that, I mean, you know, now everybody's talking about it, 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:00.680 but we knew. We knew it was happening when it 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.760 was happening, right, We knew valuations were not you know, 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.080 we had companies that were based on valuations with no profitability. 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.320 We had companies that continue to raise large sums of 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:17.720 capital based on paper valuations, not based on you know, 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.960 an actual business model and the health and structure of 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:25.200 the business. So it's not I would say, a surprise 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:29.959 that we're seeing a lot of these media companies go away. 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:34.200 They're sort of suffering from their own perceived success because 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.040 they did raise a lot of money, and they raised 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.280 a lot of money against the expectations of some really 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:44.400 really massive valuations. And it's not to say that these 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.440 aren't great companies with great prospects, but unfortunately they were 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:53.919 burdened by their own success and expectations that were set 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:55.560 for them and buy them. 0:02:55.800 --> 0:03:00.440 Really, So, what's happening from the venture side that allows 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.440 that to happen. Is it just so much money in 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.320 the system that they've got to deploy it somewhere or 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.800 is it very charismatic founders? What's happening? 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.239 Yeah, I think it's a combination of things. Right, Media 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.720 and tech are both sort of suffering in the same 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.280 you know, in the same downturn, and the irony isn't 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.920 it isn't really about the businesses. The businesses in many 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:27.320 cases are still thriving, right, They're still growing, perhaps not 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.040 at the pace that they did out of the gate, 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:36.200 or at the pace that was expected based on their valuation. 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:42.760 So you know, they are good businesses, good teams, good 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:47.280 underlying business model, but the expectations are out here, right, 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.000 and I think what you're seeing now is really a 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.800 correction to where it should be. But of course anybody 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.480 who invested at the high valuation sees this as you know, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:02.200 the end of days, because the valuations are now coming 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:08.560 down to a place where probably they should have been. Anyway, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.760 these companies probably shouldn't have raised so much money. Money 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.120 will cover up a lot of mistakes, and sometimes you 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.599 actually need to see and live your mistakes and own 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.719 your mistakes and set backs to be able to continue 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:22.440 to build a business in a healthy way. 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:28.240 So, from an investment perspective, what does innovation look like 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.000 these days in media? Because I brought up there's so 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.640 many people doing this independently, and you also have a 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.080 lot of social media commentators on these things. So what 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:37.719 does innovation look. 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:43.520 In any No matter how you slice it, media is expensive. 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:48.720 To build a media business from scratch is expensive. I 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.039 think you had a lot of companies really diversifying too 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.760 quickly across too many formats to be able to chase 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.120 scale and valuation. If you look at actually some of 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.400 the success stor and media, look at some of the 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.360 incumbents who have actually pivoted in an interesting way. New 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.760 York Times just launched their app. New York Times is 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.840 doing very well. This is this is a you know, 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.000 age old the old gray ladies they call her age 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:21.839 old media business that has gone from being an incumbent 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.000 and a legacy business and really pivoted in a very 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:30.960 very strategic way into the modern you know, into the 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.760 modern era. But this is a company that's been built 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.320 over one hundred years, step by step by step. It 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:42.120 had foundation, it had real brand awareness, it had real following, 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:47.200 it had real authority in its space. So they had 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.359 all those foundational elements that were built over the years 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.800 to enable them to then innovate. A lot of the 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:58.640 newer companies really just you know, built really quickly, and 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.839 audiences were fickle, and it was really hard to sustain 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:09.000 and maintain a solid, you know, solid foundations as they 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:13.040 needed to scale their audience. And then once the you know, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.120 once the kind of curtain gets pulled back a little bit, 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:18.280 they're in real trouble very very quickly. 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.039 And so I think about being a social media being 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:24.800 on social media, very active on social media. It's very 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.920 difficult for people like media and across I guess the 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.840 many different demographics to leave social media, to go to 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.000 another link, another location on the Internet. And so I 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.960 wonder what your thoughts are on Let's say I go, 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:39.520 I'm going to the New York Times, and then I 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.000 got a paywall, and you know, maybe I'm not a subscriber, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.800 so and but you're talking about their growing So how 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.599 are these things happening when a number one social media 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.880 platforms don't want you to leave, so they made suppress 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.120 those links out And then when you get to the 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.440 place now I can only read the first line of 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:56.320 a story. 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.960 Well, it's it's it's an age old market strategy. Right. 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:03.719 They have to have content that's compelling enough that you're 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:05.880 going to wanna that you're going to want to get 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:11.200 behind the paywall. I think they have subscribers because their 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:15.520 brand is mean something, right, It's like how many streaming 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.280 services are you going to sign up for? Most people 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.760 have Netflix, maybe one or two others, But how do 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:29.040 you become somebody needs to come over there and do 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:30.960 and do like you know. 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.360 An auditious seriously right? 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.680 But Netflix became what I call utility, right, something that 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.920 you just you pay like you play pay the electric bill. 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.640 It's not something you turn off whether you're reading, whether 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.600 you're watching a show that's that's original to Netflix or 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.880 exclusive to Netflix or not. That is what every media 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:58.400 outlet aspires to, where the content is such that it 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.960 becomes your utility, something that you're not going to live without. 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:07.280 And I actually think a lot of social media personalities 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:12.400 have been able to build their own followings and being 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:16.640 able to monetize their own followings to many at the 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.800 expense of a lot of these you know, larger digital 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:24.280 media outlets. The idea is their monetization strategy is different. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:30.600 They're able to use other platforms and other platforms advertisers 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.880 to help monetize and pay some of these social media 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.600 pundits and personalities. That's what I love about the business. 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:41.880 I mean, the New York Times is a great example 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.439 of an existing media company, big media company that continues 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.920 to innovate and nurture what already existed in terms of 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.160 a following and hopefully build a few you know, new followers, 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.679 but they had it. What I love and what I 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.960 think the future of media is is these individuals who 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.600 created who have a strong points of view, who hopefully 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:08.000 in some cases we've got more impartial views, who are 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.840 able to create content that is you know, sticky and 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.320 engaging and build their own followings because there's been this 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:21.400 great democratization of these social media platforms right that you 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:23.920 don't have to be a big, huge company with a 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.520 billion dollar valuation to build an audience, and that's I 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.400 think the greatest threat to media is the individuals like 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:33.800 yourselves and others who have something to say and have 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.080 a point of view and are able to create content 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.440 wherever they are and can build a following behind them 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.520 and monetize that follow That's that's what I think the 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.480 future of media is the individuals building brands around themselves. 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:51.760 And so I've read that you know you're focused at 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:55.800 nexus with innovative growth stage companies, and you know you 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.240 can debunk that if that's not true. But I wonder 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.040 what the reasoning behind sticking to growth stage companies is 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.520 because a lot of people think about what I'm maybec stage. 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.760 I've got a really great idea, but why growth stage? 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.480 As an investor, it's one hundred percent to do with 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.560 what my risk tolerance is and also to do with 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:21.880 where I add value to a business. And you know, 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:27.920 the early stage, very early stage companies. I almost describe 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.600 most of the success to the team. Is it a 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.440 team that has done this before? Is it a team 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.520 that can lead, can drive value, has had successes but 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.240 has also had failures. To me, the idea is secondary 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.400 to who's going to execute the idea and even secondary 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.080 to how well capitalized it is. And if I look 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.040 at like, the reason I got into investing is because 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.240 I spent my life in the music industry and I 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.839 managed artists, and my goal for the artists was, having 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:01.920 been in the business a while, is how do you 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.120 give them a second act? Right, Like, how do you 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.840 take that moment when they're at their absolute top of 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.080 their career and their greatest influence and use it to 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:16.200 leverage that into opportunities that give them the access to 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.800 generational wealth. They give them access to cap tables that 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.920 most people don't have access to. And so we started 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:27.559 investing on behalf of the artists into businesses like early 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:32.080 in Spotify right, businesses that didn't need money, weren't accepting 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.280 other checks, but would allow us to come in because 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.680 they thought it was interesting that the value proposition of 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:43.079 having artists and people who were connected with you know, 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:48.040 consumers and what the consumer base wanted. So that's how 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.600 I got into investing, really is to engage my artists 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:56.360 and give them opportunities to you know, opportunities that only 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.760 old wealthy people have had for years and years and 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:02.080 year and give them a seat at the table and 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.600 that's what got me into investing, and the reason that 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.840 I invest. You know, I have a risk profile. I 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.880 don't love the idea of putting in twenty investments thinking 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.680 one of them is going to work and hoping and praying. Right, 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.679 I don't have that. I can't sit through that risk, right, 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:21.360 that would stress me out. I like companies that have 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:26.040 product market fit, have teams, and where they are is 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.200 they're in a position where they're ready to put jet 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.280 fuel on their business. And that's also because that's where 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.440 I can add the value. Right as a brand builder, 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:38.960 as a marketer, as a business person, my superpowers are around, Okay, 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.520 you've got something really great. You've got the best business 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.080 or brand that not enough people have heard of. Like 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:47.160 what I can do to help your business is to 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.680 take it and put it on blessed. And that's why 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.160 you know, for me, i'd rather put money into a 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:58.480 business that's going that has you know, may not give 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.800 me one hundred times return and maybe one or two times, 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.920 but there's very little risk that it's gonna disappear tomorrow. Right, 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.640 And that's why I don't do early stage And it's 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:15.520 purely a preference, purely risk tolerance perspective and also where 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:16.520 I feel I can add the. 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:30.080 Most, So I mean check the resume. Cec was Vice 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.600 President of Worldwide Marketing at Epic Records Sony Music, where 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.680 she led the marketing team and oversaw the USN international 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.920 strategy for priority artists like Pearl jam Shade, Celine Dion, 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.240 and Michael Jackson. She began her career in the record 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.000 business at Aris the Records, working for the legendary Clive 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:51.440 Davis as Director of Artists Development in special Projects. From there, 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.080 decided to take her talent to private investment. What was 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.080 the opportunity she saw? Cec speaks on it. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:04.199 Really, I'd been working in the music industry for twenty years. 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:09.080 The opportunity to invest on behalf of my artists gave 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:15.160 me this visibility across a lot of businesses, different industries, 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.800 different management teams, different investor groups, and it really allowed 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:25.360 me to sort of diversify my exposure, my professional journey, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:30.360 and my skill set. So I after doing quite a 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:35.479 few of these investments, it seemed like a good opportunity 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.120 to sort of allow myself to sort of take a 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.880 few different paths on my professional journey and really do 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.480 some light learning in all these other industries and that's 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.000 what got me into investing, And ultimately why I sit 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.240 on a lot of different boards is because I love 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:55.200 to have visibility into a lot of different industries. But 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:57.920 one thing that all of these industries have in common 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:03.400 is they're central to bring and brand building. And whether 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:07.520 it be finance, whether it be music and entertainment, or 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.280 whether it be consumer, they're really all like how do 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.520 you storytell? How do you how do you message what 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:15.800 you're about? How do you message your values? And how 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:20.000 do you disseminate that that message in a wide you know, 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:21.400 to a wide group of people. 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:24.760 And you mentioned this before. I'm gonna come back to 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.440 the board talking a little bit. But you mentioned when 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:30.680 the types of investments you involve yourself, is you get 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:34.880 to bring those experiences as you've had historically. And what 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:39.200 types of activities are you involved in operationally or otherwise 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.080 with the companies that you make. 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.840 Well, it really varies. Well, you know, I'm involved in 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:54.000 big companies like Revlon and Warner Music and Man Group, 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:58.920 which is a big publicly traded hedge fund, and I'm 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:03.120 involved in earlier growth stage companies that I'm invested in 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:09.920 and they all require different levels of engagement. I would say, 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.320 you know, management, finding the right management team and done 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:19.920 quite a few CEO searches and building the CEO CEOs 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:25.200 team and management team. Obviously in areas like music and 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:30.520 entertainment where I have a very specific and longstanding background, 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:36.920 I get involved in many areas beyond the sort of 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:42.640 more high level strategic board work, and it could really 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.640 just be there to support the management team wherever I 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:50.200 can troubleshoot and help make a difference. In the younger companies, 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:55.160 probably much more operationally involved in terms of you know, 0:16:55.480 --> 0:17:00.000 really helping guide the management team, helping them make decison 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:07.639 in some cases, helping them raise capital, hire teams, build 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:13.399 a business model, pivot the business model, and help create 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:19.600 opportunities and use my network to help them create opportunities 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.000 for their business and themselves. 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.760 And so we had Ursula Burns at a natro tech 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.560 executive let someone sometime last year and she said something 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.320 that I thought was remarkable, and I wasn't interviewing her, 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:33.840 so I didn't get a chance to dig into this 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.440 sentiment she had shared, and she had she we were 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.879 talking about boards, and she didn't understand the fascination with 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.640 board service to this body of people that we were 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.560 in the room, And so I want to position what 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.040 I would follow up with somebody who's had your experience. 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.440 I mean you at Revlin, you know Uta Circuitay Sola 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.440 and lon Von and more, and you've had all these 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:01.480 wonderful experiences, and what are some good reasons to desire 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:02.600 to sit on a board. 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.879 I'm glad you asked the question because I do do 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:11.080 a lot of do do a lot of talks about 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:15.760 board service, and you know, my side hustle is putting 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:19.760 women on boards. It's just something I challenge myself to 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:24.040 put ten women, especially women of color, on boards every 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:29.840 year because it's sort of opportunity begets, begets opportunity and 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.359 helping share that network. But I agree with her in 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.000 some quick cases. The first question I always ask a 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.320 room like that is make sure you've answered the question 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.360 why do you want to be on a board, And 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.520 very few people have the answer. The answer for many 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:52.200 people is immediately it's it's another sort of notch notch 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.400 in my resume. It's sort of the next thing. Once 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:00.439 I've done this, this and this, that's the next you know, 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:05.280 the next step on the ladder. It looks good. It's 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:11.320 you helped my personal brand. I think that could be 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.639 part of the reason. But I think there have to 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.439 be a lot more foundational reasons to join a board, 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.159 and there are some, right, I noted one for me. 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:28.240 I wanted to expand beyond my industry of choice, right, entertainment. 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.360 I loved it. I done it a long time. It's 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.119 very hard once you reach a certain level to be 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:38.240 able to pivot into other industries, right, to be able 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.399 to have that visibility at a strategic level, not at 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.680 an entry level, at a strategic level, and board work 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.400 is one of the ways you can do that. Right. 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:50.000 It's you have transferable skills that you've learned building and 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.040 running businesses in your core field that you can then 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.520 lend to these other businesses. But also you're learning these 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.240 other businesses. I didn't know consumer products. I don't know 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.560 about supply chain, I didn't know about the capital markets. 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.640 I was able to bring my expertise into these businesses. 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.399 But more importantly, I've gotten so much. I am now, 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.640 you know, if not fluent, certainly conversant in all these 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.040 other industries. And at a certain point in your career 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.800 when you may say, listen, I don't want to be 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:24.600 just CCE the entertainment person or the music person. I 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.680 want to both intellectually and professionally expand my skill set. 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.359 I think that's a really good reason. I think for 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.399 an operator of a business being able to work, if 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.200 you're a CEO of a business, being able to work 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.720 alongside and watch another CEO of a business work, and 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:44.000 to be able to partner with them and help them 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.920 but also learn from them. I think that's a really 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:50.000 good reason to do. To be on a board. I 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:54.600 think being able to expand your network beyond your industry 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.080 and be on a board with board members that are 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.159 from all sorts of different industries and would be a 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.520 great network for you another great reason to do a board. 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.520 I think where people get it wrong sometimes is they're 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:11.800 going to make a lot of money. There are some 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.840 opportunities to do that, but it's not. Board work is 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.159 not you know you're stepping into you know you're stepping 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:20.359 in it. That's not what it is. I think a 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.240 mistake is to do it just purely because you think 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:30.119 it's a profile choice. And I think it's important to know. 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:35.080 For example, if you're an operator in a business, it's 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.760 really hard to do board work right. You might be 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.080 able to do one, but when you're on a board 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:43.400 the time, you don't have to be there all the time. 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:45.760 They are very specific times you need to show up 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.679 and be involved. But you've got to be there. So 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.879 if you're working a day job, you can't say I 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.520 can't be at that board meeting. You can't say I 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.320 can't you know, be on that call. You've got to 0:21:57.359 --> 0:21:59.919 be able to create the time for that board service. 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.520 And the other issue I find with some people who 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:07.520 have a day job, especially if they're you know, they're 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:10.560 a founder or running a business, is if I'm an 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:16.040 investor or, I'm a board member on your company, I 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:18.040 want to know that you're one hundred and fifty percent 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:23.359 devoted to your day job. I don't want you using 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:28.760 your time and your you know, mental mass to be 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:32.720 supporting another company that doesn't help grow the business that 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:36.560 I'm involved in. So it does become tricky, right. A 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:42.040 good you know, a good leader can see the value 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.520 of being on another board to help them developmentally as 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:49.359 a leader. But the idea they have to be able 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.879 to maintain their day job at one hundred and fifty percent, 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:56.800 and if that ever slips, you have the duty to 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:01.199 sure that you're fully focused on your day job. The 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:03.800 other thing I think people don't really understand is there's 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:07.400 real liability and being on a board actual liability. So 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:11.040 boards get sued all the time. You have insurance, but 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:13.399 you need to be prepared for the fact that you 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:17.360 have liability because you're a fiduciary of that company. And 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.080 I think you've seen it. You know, there are people 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:24.280 getting sued at Disney right now. There are people who 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:28.879 were sued the suing the shareholders that sued Twitter, Twitter's board. 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.040 You know, there there have been a lot, there are 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:35.600 a lot of lawsuits. If a shareholder thinks that they 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:39.439 did not that the board didn't act in the full 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:44.439 support of the shareholders, they're going to sue. So just 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:47.520 be prepared that there is liability that comes with it, 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:52.560 not you know, if the grass isn't always green. Companies 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.000 have problems and then you really on the hot seat 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.200 and you've got to be you know, roll up your 0:23:57.200 --> 0:23:59.960 sleeves and get involved in in solving. 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:03.480 Those And so I'm gonna ask this question, and it's 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:06.280 gonna sound selfish, but there's us there's very core, there's 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:10.359 very credentialed people who listen to this podcast, so there 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:12.680 will be value across the board. So I have the 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:17.040 privilege of sitting on a few boards, university boards, Ohio 0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:19.879 Casino Control Commission, we regulate all the casinos in Ohio, 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:23.919 et cetera. Some international corporate boards I've sat on, and 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:27.960 I want my question is this, there are for people 0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:30.280 who have sat on boards, there's a desire to get 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:33.040 on bigger boards, and you don't want to just always 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:36.199 trip over at these opportunities. So how can you be 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:41.800 specific and intentional about creating opportunities for yourself? Because I'm 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:43.400 not a black woman, so you know, maybe I don't 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:46.439 qualify for your mentorship in that way, but you know 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:50.680 I want but seeh I appreciate it. I appreciate that. 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:55.520 See but I wonder, like, how can people be intentional about, 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:58.800 you know, these opportunities seeking them out? 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:01.560 I think I think you how to be intentional about 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:05.520 the opportunities. What I tell people, because you know, when 0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:10.280 as soon as your sort of reach a certain profile, 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:12.920