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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. I'm in the volume business. I always tell

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Speaker 1: everybody I'm Steph Curry. I'm taking twenty five shots tonight.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna miss half, and I'm gonna turn the ball

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Speaker 1: over three times. I'm out of the perfect business. I'm

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Speaker 1: out there taking thirty shots tonight and you're gonna miss half.

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Speaker 1: And if you only miss half, you're an all star. Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories

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Speaker 1: from the Frontiers and Marketing. My guest today is an

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Speaker 1: expert in something that can't be taught. It's a sixth

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Speaker 1: sense that very few of us are born with, but

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Speaker 1: he has it in spades. It's the innate ability to

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Speaker 1: create a need in the marketplace that wasn't there before,

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Speaker 1: and then to satisfy that need. He's a sports talk HiCon.

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Speaker 1: He's an entrepreneur and wildly successful podcaster. He's Colin Coward.

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Speaker 1: He started out in a small fishing village, fell in

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Speaker 1: love with radio as a kid, became an athlete and

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Speaker 1: worked on the school newspaper, then parlayed those early interests

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Speaker 1: into a massive career in his own self styled world

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Speaker 1: of sports broadcasting, announcing, reporting, hosting, anchoring, and most recently, podcasting.

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Speaker 1: He's done it all in every medium for the past

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Speaker 1: four decades, from the West Coast to the East Coast,

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Speaker 1: from local TV and radio to ESPN, to Fox Sports,

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Speaker 1: and to the digital realm and partnership with us here

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Speaker 1: at I heeart with not one but two podcast networks,

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Speaker 1: the Herb Podcast Network and the Volume Network. He's also

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Speaker 1: a two time published author, partner with a brewer to

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Speaker 1: make his own microbrew, and owns a burger restaurant in California.

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Speaker 1: And to top it off, he's a good guy. Colin. Welcome, Bob,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Jeez, I've been busy apparently before

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Speaker 1: we get started, I want to do you in sixty seconds. Ready, yep?

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Speaker 1: Do you prefer cats or dogs? Dogs? Cats are two

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Speaker 1: aloof East Coast or West Coast, like the West Coast

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Speaker 1: early riser or night ol early riser, text or email, email,

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Speaker 1: Super Bowl or World Series? Super Bowl. I like football,

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Speaker 1: beach or snow. If you gave me one great day

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Speaker 1: a year, it would be skiing snow over sun. Now

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Speaker 1: it's about to get a little harder. All time favorite

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Speaker 1: athlete Tiger Woods greatest sports caster of all time al Michael's.

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Speaker 1: He's probably the one guy that if I'm ever in

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Speaker 1: a room with, I feel like I would die to

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Speaker 1: have his talent. Smartest person you know, Bob Iger. And finally,

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Speaker 1: what's the best advice you ever received? It's not about

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Speaker 1: being right, it's about being compelling. Bruce Gilbert told me that, Colin.

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Speaker 1: Let's jump in now and start with the obvious sports

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Speaker 1: casting by reputation, you're the guy who finds the unique angle.

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Speaker 1: You're the thinker who examined something most have missed. And

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Speaker 1: on the other side of the spectrum you got the flamethrowers.

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Speaker 1: What is the tension between these two approaches, what you

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Speaker 1: do and what they do? And how is it changing

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Speaker 1: the profession? Well, I was never that interested in the

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Speaker 1: what the what is easy? What happened? The Lakers want?

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Speaker 1: Why did it happen? Explain it to me. That's much

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Speaker 1: more fascinating to me. I don't consider myself a flamethrower.

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Speaker 1: I think of myself as somebody who is really interested

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Speaker 1: in the story behind the story. I wrote my first

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Speaker 1: book and I talked about in the very beginning there's

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Speaker 1: two stories. The one the public gets and the truth.

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Speaker 1: And you know, big companies have PR firms and layers

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Speaker 1: and layers of people to protect companies and protect athletes,

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Speaker 1: and they have agents and handlers, and so my job

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Speaker 1: is to figure out why something happened, Why the story leaked,

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Speaker 1: why the story broke on Friday late afternoon, why was

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Speaker 1: it a news dump? What are protecting? That? To me

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Speaker 1: has just always been more interesting because that's what I

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Speaker 1: care about. So I think a great show should be

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Speaker 1: closest to your true self. If you're silly, do a

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Speaker 1: silly show. I love sports, but I really love life.

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Speaker 1: I like traveling, I like reading, I like new things.

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Speaker 1: So I want my show to exemplify that. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a debate guy. I've never watched really a debate show.

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Speaker 1: I'm not interested in that format. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: manufacture opinions to you know, justify or rating. I don't

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Speaker 1: have a problem with people doing that. It just doesn't

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Speaker 1: interest me. I don't find it compelling. I'm not somebody

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Speaker 1: that would argue about anything. I have my beliefs, you

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Speaker 1: have yours. I'm more interested. Why do you think the

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Speaker 1: way you think? Not what you think? We've all got

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Speaker 1: different opinions. Is your childhood the reason you think that?

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Speaker 1: Did you have a jarring event in your life? Why

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Speaker 1: do you think that way? The flamethrower approach. I don't

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Speaker 1: see myself as that. I think I'm self deprecating. I

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Speaker 1: think my audience knows I'm trying to find interesting angles.

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Speaker 1: But there's certainly room for that in the marketplace. I'm

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Speaker 1: just not that guy. How do you develop your topics?

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Speaker 1: How do you find that unique point? It's what we

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Speaker 1: care about in the morning meeting. I've been furnished with

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Speaker 1: a great staff. You know, I'm very lucky, Bob, because

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Speaker 1: I'm the last really successful sports simulcast. I have a

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Speaker 1: combined radio and TV production team. So it's double the

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Speaker 1: size of my competitors. That means twice as many eyes

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Speaker 1: and ears and brains. And so I come in the

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Speaker 1: morning with some thoughts, and I like my staff, my

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Speaker 1: team to pitch me ideas, give me a funny line,

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Speaker 1: a different angle. I mean, I've literally done a five

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Speaker 1: minute rant and then somebody in the end will throw

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Speaker 1: in a line and I'm like, oh, that's a way

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Speaker 1: more interesting angle, and I just spent twenty minutes on it.

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Speaker 1: I'll throw it out and start over. So we're constantly

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Speaker 1: pitching ideas. Somebody throws me a line, I write it down.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, that's funny, that's a funny line. That's a

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Speaker 1: memorable line. Because I've always believed that I have to

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Speaker 1: take the audience somewhere. I get nine to eleven minutes

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Speaker 1: of you in a car. I'm not gonna ramble. I

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Speaker 1: respect you, and I want to earn your respect. I

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Speaker 1: want to take you somewhere. You haven't been on a trip,

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Speaker 1: on a journey through a story, so when it's over

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Speaker 1: and you get out of your car, it's almost like

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Speaker 1: a column. Lead meet wrap it up at the end,

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Speaker 1: and I feel there's too much rambling in radio and

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Speaker 1: not enough true storytelling. With the beginning, a middle, and

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Speaker 1: an end, it closes. Take people somewhere, Give them something,

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Speaker 1: make him laugh, make him think, make them cry, make

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Speaker 1: them sometimes angry, make them question themselves. Take them somewhere.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about history. Let's go back

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Speaker 1: to the Howard Coast cell era. How would you describe

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Speaker 1: that period and how and why did it evolve. Cosell

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Speaker 1: was my first idol. I love co Sell. He was irascible,

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Speaker 1: he was tough. He had an enormous ego. But if

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Speaker 1: you take Howard at his best, I think he's one

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Speaker 1: of the ten most important sportscasters of my life. He

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Speaker 1: challenged authority. He was on the right side of history.

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Speaker 1: He took big swings. I had on a podcast Peter

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Speaker 1: Goober as part owner of the you know the Warriors

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Speaker 1: and l a f C very successful guy in the

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Speaker 1: movie business. I could tell that he was kind of

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Speaker 1: a reasonably regular listener, and he said, you know, Colin,

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Speaker 1: you're irrascible. You know you're feisty. And I remember when

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Speaker 1: we got done, I thought, am I And that day

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Speaker 1: I thought, that's probably the influence Howard Cosell had on me.

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Speaker 1: Is that poke and proud and make people uncomfortable and

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Speaker 1: challenge authority. I think we're missing a little bit of

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Speaker 1: that today. I think people Bob now go to camps.

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Speaker 1: I'm on left, I'm on right. I'm pro athlete, I'm

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Speaker 1: pro owner. I like the independent thinker. I like the

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Speaker 1: independent fighter, fighting for the people, fighting for the truth,

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Speaker 1: willing to admit they're wrong. There's some Dick Young, the sportswriter,

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Speaker 1: Howard Cosell, some of that stuff would be seen as

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Speaker 1: inappropriate today roth vulgar, But I think modern media misses

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Speaker 1: a little bit of that. We're too finesse. Now, let's

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Speaker 1: jump a little bit. Sports in America has always worked

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Speaker 1: hand in hand with the media outlets to carry the games.

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Speaker 1: I mean for decades and decades. The world of media

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Speaker 1: right now is going through the biggest change I've seen

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Speaker 1: in my life. How is that changing sports for me?

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Speaker 1: Once leagues had their own networks, and I'm not really

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Speaker 1: a fan of any of them. Snowshot at MLB network

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Speaker 1: or Basketball or the NFL network, but they feel a

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Speaker 1: little generic and a little safe. But it did alleviate

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Speaker 1: the need for me to feel like a sports page.

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Speaker 1: If you like tennis, go watch the tennis channel. You

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Speaker 1: like hockey, watch the hockey channel. You like baseball, watch

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Speaker 1: the baseball channel. It's alleviated that day to day pressure

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Speaker 1: to be a sports page. I just cover now the

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Speaker 1: biggest stories. There's an insatiable want in this country for

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Speaker 1: authentic and real politics and sports are unscripted and there's

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Speaker 1: nothing else like them, and they're the only thing that

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Speaker 1: works now on terrestrial TV. I don't know why it

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Speaker 1: took so long, but that part's never changed. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've lived through so many different eras. I'm rarely outraged,

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Speaker 1: I'm rarely surprised. And you know, I find sometimes young

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Speaker 1: journalists they think everything's deaf con five, and I feel like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this has been happening since the sixties and seventies and eighties.

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Speaker 1: We've had greater challenges thirty years ago, fifty years ago.

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Speaker 1: When I look at sports, I can remember Sports Illustrated

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Speaker 1: having a cover story thirty years ago. TV networks will

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Speaker 1: not be able to afford these leads. Delo is a Fordham.

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Speaker 1: The bottom line is if I can put a truck

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Speaker 1: commercial on that football or basketball game and sales are

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Speaker 1: strong for that truck company or that soda company, where

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Speaker 1: else are they going to put their spots and get

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Speaker 1: that kind of result. So the cost of sports is greater,

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Speaker 1: But Bob, I watched the World Series. All the games

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Speaker 1: are sold out. I watched the NFL and college football

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Speaker 1: every Saturday. All the big games are sold out. So

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of fear around. It's too expensive, it's

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Speaker 1: not as relatable, and kids can't go to the games.

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Speaker 1: I turn on TV every weekend, Thursday Night Football, Monday

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Speaker 1: Night Football, the stadiums are packed. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: changed that much. I think it's harder for a network

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Speaker 1: to make a profit if they own the NFL, but

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Speaker 1: they always find a way to do it. I kind

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Speaker 1: of confess I'm not the biggest sports fan you'll ever meet,

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Speaker 1: but I'm a huge fan of entrepreneurs in business. And

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Speaker 1: what intrigues me about you is how you move from

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Speaker 1: being on air talent to owning and running your own business.

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Speaker 1: And you've done it by the way again and again.

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Speaker 1: How do you think about that relationship between you as

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Speaker 1: the on air person and you as the business person.

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Speaker 1: I think I produced my show like I run my businesses.

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Speaker 1: I'm a good passer. I never want to be the

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Speaker 1: smartest person in the room. I like sharing the ball.

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Speaker 1: I like others. I don't want to be a workaholic.

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Speaker 1: I want to come into a room. I think I

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Speaker 1: have some intuitive senses on what works and what doesn't

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Speaker 1: for my brand, and so I don't need to always

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Speaker 1: have the right answer. I'm constantly seeking pushback on my

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Speaker 1: staff and on my businesses. I have a few rules.

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Speaker 1: Treat people well, pay people fairly. I have a certain

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Speaker 1: moral compass. I believe in But I think I run

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Speaker 1: my show like my businesses, be inclusive, include people in

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Speaker 1: the profits, sharing ideas. I think people want to be

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Speaker 1: part of those environments. The only time I lose people

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Speaker 1: on my team is when I get double the compensation.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise I keep my team members, And so I think

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Speaker 1: I think I'm easy to work for. I'll bark twice

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Speaker 1: a year it's something I don't like. I'll fight for

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Speaker 1: something I believe in. You know, a quarterback in high school.

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Speaker 1: I loved having a good running game. I love turning

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Speaker 1: to my running back and I didn't have to work

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Speaker 1: as hard because he was scoring, he was providing the offense.

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Speaker 1: I don't need to be the center of attention. You'd

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Speaker 1: think in radio I have to be the center of attention.

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Speaker 1: But I like really strong teammates, really strong producing. I

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Speaker 1: like being part of an ensemble and a cast. That's

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Speaker 1: my kind of theory on it. Don't be a ballhog share.

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Speaker 1: So how did you learn business? My dad was in

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Speaker 1: the stock market and there was always like a Wall

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Speaker 1: Street journal or a business section of a newspaper hanging around.

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Speaker 1: I like the constructive business as much as business. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've tried twice to buy into an MLS franchise. I've

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Speaker 1: always wanted to be, you know, an owner of a team.

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Speaker 1: I've got a draft beer, I got restaurants, I have

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Speaker 1: real estate, I've got companies. I've been a passive investor.

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Speaker 1: The volume I own again, part of a team. I

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Speaker 1: guess a lot of it comes from my dad. My

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Speaker 1: dad was kind of a Reagan conservative, love business. You know,

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Speaker 1: he would watch the stock market, um watch the nightly news,

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Speaker 1: and you know, so he had an influence over me.

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Speaker 1: You know, my mom used to always say, I was

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Speaker 1: eight going on forty. I was a pretty serious kid.

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Speaker 1: And so I've always hung out with people that are

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Speaker 1: older than I am for most of my life. You know,

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Speaker 1: they were more, i would say, professionally advanced. When I

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Speaker 1: was twenty eight or twenty nine, I'm hanging around a

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Speaker 1: forty year old. You know, they're in the middle, they're married,

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Speaker 1: they have kids, they're not going out at night, They're

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Speaker 1: talking about their business. I just enjoy it. I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the process of it. I'm always you know, whether it's

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Speaker 1: I heart Fox, you know, I'm always you tell me

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Speaker 1: where are their stock options? How can I help an advertiser?

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Speaker 1: How can I elevate the relationship. That stuff always fascinated

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Speaker 1: me because Bob talking is easy for me. Talking sports

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Speaker 1: is pretty easy for me. The challenges sometimes are connecting

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Speaker 1: things to my business. Where can I find a link?

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Speaker 1: How do I make these things assist other things in

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Speaker 1: my little world of Colin So, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: at a very early age I was into it. I

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Speaker 1: was talking a little bit about sports and the changes

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Speaker 1: going on. You mentioned baseball, football, basketball, Well, they continue

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Speaker 1: to be the big three. This year I went to

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Speaker 1: Formula one here in Miami. Everyone said how much bigger

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Speaker 1: Formula One was than the Super Bowl, And literally Formula

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Speaker 1: one was in a parking lot. It sort of it

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Speaker 1: seems too in America anyway, just come out of nowhere,

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Speaker 1: you know, people are talking about pickleball. Now we've got

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Speaker 1: e sports, We've got all these new permutations. How does

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Speaker 1: it change the landscape of what we call sports? Well, basketball, football,

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Speaker 1: and baseball are the big three. But if you look

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Speaker 1: at my lifetime, boxing was far more popular at one point,

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Speaker 1: but it was poorly managed. College basketball was much bigger

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Speaker 1: in the seventies, eighties, nineties, but again not perfectly managed.

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Speaker 1: The asked high schoolers now want to go straight to

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Speaker 1: the NBA. It's become a turnstyle. Um it's it's almost

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Speaker 1: emotionally remote as a sport. The best players, you're one

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Speaker 1: and done, they're out horse racing. It feels like was

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Speaker 1: bigger Baseball was bigger in the seventies. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of that has been iPhones and the caffeinated, frenetic

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Speaker 1: lifestyles of Americans are too fast for a very slow sport.

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Speaker 1: So outside of the NFL, nothing is really grown been

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Speaker 1: an ascending business for the last thirty years except football.

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Speaker 1: I think a large part of that, Bob is gambling,

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Speaker 1: which is at a jet fuel to it, and the

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Speaker 1: scarcity of games. There are so many games on television

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Speaker 1: now due to cable and new platforms and streaming that

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Speaker 1: the sports with the fewest games tend to be more popular.

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Speaker 1: So I still think we're a basketball, football, baseball country.

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Speaker 1: But I mean UFC took advantage of the lack of

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Speaker 1: leadership in boxing. Pickle Ball is emerging because maybe there's

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Speaker 1: not enough domestic tennis stars in America. Maybe there's an opening.

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Speaker 1: You know, the Boomers don't want to run around, they

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Speaker 1: got tennis elbow and sore knees. They want to be

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Speaker 1: in a more condensed space. F one racing. There was

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Speaker 1: a big Netflix special It caught Fire. It's international, it's cool.

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Speaker 1: Nascar are still much bigger in America. That's our product,

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Speaker 1: that's more domestic. But you know, I always think that

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Speaker 1: the Big three or four are sort of built in

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Speaker 1: to our psyche. But there's always room for a UFC

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Speaker 1: or an F one. Yeah, those are more niche, but

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm here for it. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: sometimes we forget as Americans how popular soccer is. I

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Speaker 1: love the World Cup and I'll watch an occasional MLS match,

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Speaker 1: but you know, sometimes we can be very provincial. Um,

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Speaker 1: Soccer is significantly bigger. Ronaldo is significantly more globally known

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Speaker 1: than Tom Brady or Peyton Anning. And I think it

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Speaker 1: is the beautiful game. Uh, It's shorter, fewer commercials, goals

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Speaker 1: matter more, the crowds are equally frenzied. So I think

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Speaker 1: soccer globally football in America, basketball will always be at

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Speaker 1: the top of the food chain. More math and magic

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Speaker 1: right after this quick break. Welcome back to math and Magic.

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Speaker 1: Let's hear more from my conversation with Colin Cowern I

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Speaker 1: want to go back in time and look at your

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Speaker 1: origin story. You grew up in a small fishing village

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Speaker 1: south of Seattle in the sixties and seventies. Can you

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Speaker 1: paint a picture of those times? And that place one

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Speaker 1: of the rainiest spots in America? And I don't remember

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Speaker 1: anything but sunny days with my dog in the hills

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Speaker 1: of Grayland, Washington, on motorbikes with friends. I remember the summers,

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Speaker 1: the sand dunes, going down to the docks. My dad

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Speaker 1: loved the fish, salmon, fisherman. It was different back then.

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Speaker 1: You didn't know you're isolated. I didn't think I was

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Speaker 1: missing on everything. My mom was a wonderful cook. My

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Speaker 1: dad was the town optometrist. We didn't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of money, but we didn't lack for anything. It was

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Speaker 1: a very simple life. It was a life I knew,

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Speaker 1: and my sister and I talked about it all the time.

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Speaker 1: It was a wonderful childhood. I got a quarterback in

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Speaker 1: my high school team. I had a really fun, smart girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: two or three really close friends. I was into sports.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't trade it for anything. I loved my childhood,

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Speaker 1: my high school years. What did you want to be

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Speaker 1: when you grew up a sportscaster when I was seven

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Speaker 1: eight years old. Knew it from the very beginning. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it was I didn't think my dad was paying enough

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Speaker 1: attention to me. He was a workaholic. There's a way

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Speaker 1: to get attention. I would do impersonations. I just knew

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Speaker 1: at a very early age. I loved sports. I love

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Speaker 1: watching it. I love talking it. I knew a lot

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Speaker 1: more so it was impressive to people when I was

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Speaker 1: ten years old and could you know rattle off stats.

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Speaker 1: People couldn't believe it so very early. It made me

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Speaker 1: feel good about myself. Any lessons you learned from your

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Speaker 1: childhood that you used today, Yeah, there's a big difference

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Speaker 1: between alone and lonely. I was alone a lot as

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Speaker 1: a kid, but I was rarely lonely. I think my

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Speaker 1: ability to talk for long stretches to myself is what

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Speaker 1: you had to do in rural America. I didn't have

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Speaker 1: neighbors next to me, and so I would play basketball

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Speaker 1: and call play by play by myself. You had to

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Speaker 1: be creative. I would play whiffleball right out the lineup cards,

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Speaker 1: played by myself. I was constantly doing things by myself.

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Speaker 1: I was alone, but I was having the time of

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Speaker 1: my life. I never look at those as as lonely

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Speaker 1: or sad time. I didn't know it at the time,

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Speaker 1: but I was already developing my skill to talk to

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Speaker 1: myself for hours and and to this day, my kids

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Speaker 1: are the same way. I tell my kids, respect yourself,

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Speaker 1: give yourself time. You know. I give myself an hour

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Speaker 1: to an hour and a half every afternoon to read,

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Speaker 1: listen to music, meditate. Um, it's really crucial time for

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Speaker 1: me every day. In the early eighties, you go off

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Speaker 1: to college. How did college help put you on the

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Speaker 1: path that you got on to success? I identified very

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Speaker 1: early how obsessed I was by sportscasting. There were six

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Speaker 1: or seven other men and women who wanted to be sportscasters.

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Speaker 1: None of them wanted it as badly as I did.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think any of them were as talented as

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Speaker 1: I did. They weren't doing impressions, they weren't listening to

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Speaker 1: radio all night long and recording it on a gigantic

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Speaker 1: AM FM cassette player like my mom gave me for Christmas.

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Speaker 1: I was just obsessed by it, you know, I had

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Speaker 1: all the things. Larry Ellison what said this? The founder

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Speaker 1: of oracle. I had all the things necessary for success. Ignored,

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Speaker 1: child of divorce, small town, had to make my fun, doubted,

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Speaker 1: high school, acne. You know, all those things that you

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Speaker 1: know are the bedrocks of many success stories. That that

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Speaker 1: chip on your shoulder. I had it at a very

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Speaker 1: early age. Did you ever think you might not make it?

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Speaker 1: And if you did, did you have any alternative paths?

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Speaker 1: Did you say, Okay, if I don't make it as

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Speaker 1: the sports, I'm doing this. You know, I never gave

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Speaker 1: it a lot of thought. I didn't. I never had

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Speaker 1: any real self doubt. I have surpassed what my expectations were.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know we'd have all these platforms I identified

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly. I was good with opinions. I thought I

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Speaker 1: was an average writer at best, an average TV anchor.

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Speaker 1: But I thought I was quick and witty and a

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Speaker 1: good storyteller and fairly, you know, good sense of humor.

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Speaker 1: I could talk about anything. I read a lot, so

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Speaker 1: I could. You know, you'd throw a curveball at me

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Speaker 1: and I could pick it up and and hit it somewhere.

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Speaker 1: So I never really gave serious thought to a second career.

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Speaker 1: How do you find talent and how do you coach

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Speaker 1: the talent to get the best out of them. Well,

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Speaker 1: the first six months i'm with any new staff, I

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Speaker 1: have to introduce them to me. So as I come

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Speaker 1: in the morning, when I first got to Fox or ESPN,

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Speaker 1: I take any time I can tell stories about my life.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to introduce me to the staff. So I

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Speaker 1: like people engaged and people that add into the mix.

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Speaker 1: But not all of them are verbal. Some are good writers,

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Speaker 1: some are voracious readers. You know, I'm older, so I

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Speaker 1: like a young staff staff that introduces me to new things.

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Speaker 1: You know, Bob, It's just and I don't think this

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Speaker 1: is any special skill. I'm often looking for people who

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Speaker 1: can do what I can't. I'm not looking for yes man.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking for people who have a skill I don't,

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Speaker 1: or an interest I don't, and they can fill in

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Speaker 1: the gaps around my personality. I think every personality has

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Speaker 1: holes and gaps and strengths and liabilities. I'm looking for

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Speaker 1: gap fillers. You talked a little bit about core values

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Speaker 1: that you believe in. What core values do you have

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Speaker 1: for the team you put together the businesses you own

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Speaker 1: and run. I want us to have an honest staff.

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Speaker 1: If you're six day home. If you don't think you're

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Speaker 1: being treated fairly, speak up. If you get a job offered,

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Speaker 1: tell me, I'll fight to keep you, but i'll be

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Speaker 1: a great reference. You know, no real secrets. Tell me

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Speaker 1: what you think, honest feedback. I don't have to be

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Speaker 1: friends with everybody on the staff, but I want everybody

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Speaker 1: to feel a friendship that's on the staff, that we're

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Speaker 1: a team and we've got each other's backs. But we

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Speaker 1: don't have to hang out summer, old, summer, young, some

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Speaker 1: have big family, summer single, not necessarily feeling protected but supported.

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Speaker 1: You know, I fought for a lot of people. I

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Speaker 1: don't have to at Fox or Premier, but when I

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Speaker 1: was at ESPN, I fought for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: They didn't pay very well. I had to go to

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Speaker 1: boss Is more than once and banging a table to

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Speaker 1: get people paid what I thought was a reasonable amount

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Speaker 1: for the services provided. So when I talk about core values,

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Speaker 1: they're more professional. Um. I don't dive into people's personal life.

423
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,239
Speaker 1: I'd prefer they don't dive into mind. But I do

424
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: think there's kind of a moral code. If you're on

425
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: my staff, you know, I think I'm surrounded by really

426
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: good people, really people that protect me. They're there, you know,

427
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: they're they're they got my back, but they can also

428
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: make fun of me, you know when you talk for

429
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: three hours a day, Bob. As you well know, I'm

430
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: in the volume business. I always tell everybody I'm Steph Curry.

431
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: I'm taking twenty five shots tonight. I'm gonna miss half

432
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna turn the ball over three times. But

433
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: I'm an artist. I'm gonna spill paint in order to

434
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 1: work fast, fluid, be funny, quick, witty. I'm out of

435
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: the perfect business. I'm out there taking thirty shots tonight

436
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: and you're gonna half. And if you only miss half,

437
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: you're an all star. So podcasting, you were big and

438
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: radio big and TV. How did you notice podcasting? You've

439
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: become one of the biggest stars in sports podcasting. Where

440
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: did that come from? What was your first inkling you

441
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: had something? Was there? Well, it was during COVID and

442
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: I got a call, I think from Julie Talbot. I

443
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: have a great relationship with Julie, and Julie said, you know,

444
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: it's the strangest thing. She said, there's no cars on

445
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: the road, and your ratings have stabilized. It shows the

446
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: loyalty of your audience. And I remember thinking, I said,

447
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: you know how our sales and she said, you know,

448
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: we're keeping them. We may not be growing, but we're

449
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: keeping them. The show sold out, and I remember thinking, Bob,

450
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 1: wait a minute. When covid ends there's gonna be a

451
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: greater demand for spots, right, well, if I don't have space,

452
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: they just go to ESPN. Where do they go? They

453
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: go to other shows. So I thought, Julie, if I

454
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: can own it, I'll create two thousand hours a month

455
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: of inventory of space so you can put these ads

456
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: on it and we can share in revenue. And so

457
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: to me, it was just it goes back to kind

458
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: of the business part of it. I'm like, it's gonna

459
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: be hard. If I can own it, I'll do a

460
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 1: rev share, but let me create a podcast network and

461
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: very quickly I'll be writing you checks. You won't be

462
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: just writing me checks. And that's how it was born.

463
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: Social media. How has it made sports better and how

464
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: has it made sports worse? And what role does it

465
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 1: play in the sports fans life and the life of

466
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: a sportscaster. Well, it's a visceral connection that you can

467
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 1: reach out and touch people. Now you can reach out

468
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: and connect with me. Um that part I like. I

469
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: don't like the vile nature of it. I have probably

470
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: a dozen social accounts, eleven are run by somebody else.

471
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 1: I do some Twitter. I think you have to be careful.

472
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: Dennis Miller of the comedian Wants said, when asked about

473
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: being on Monday Night Football, do you want to look

474
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: at the research? And he said no. If it's too good,

475
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: I'll get cocky, and if it's bad, I'll get insecure.

476
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: I try not to engage. I try not to worry

477
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: about it. I don't read a lot of it. I shoot,

478
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: you can't monetize my missus. You can't monetize miss shots.

479
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: I just do volume. I shoot. I throw stuff out there.

480
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: I hope people like it, and I think ultimately the

481
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: person that puts out the most quality content over time wins.

482
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: I think ours is very good. I do think it's

483
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: made a lot of sportscasters leery of strong opinions. You know,

484
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: nobody wants to be exposed or called out. But that's

485
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: never bothered me, so in a weird way, it's made

486
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: it easier for me that I think a lot of

487
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: hosts are terrified of criticism. I always feel like the

488
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: price and the privilege of relevance is criticism. So bring

489
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: it on. Let's do some advice. What advice would you

490
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: give to the major sports leagues for the growth of

491
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: the sports? More kids at games, and tighter security on

492
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: vulgar adults. I don't know how many times I've been

493
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: in discussions with friends who just don't want to go

494
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: to a pro event because people are too drunk, too loud.

495
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you the last time I went to

496
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: a baseball game and didn't see a fight in the stands.

497
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: I wish they had tighter security, they would limit alcohol.

498
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: I wish there were more kids. I want more kids

499
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: at my games. You know I'm not talking four but fourteen.

500
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: Excuse some advice for sports marketers and advertisers. What do

501
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: they get wrong? Most often, don't think you're smarter than

502
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: the public. If the public likes diet coke, give them

503
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: diet coke. I think sometimes managers try to outthink the

504
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: room and out clever the room. The audience tells you

505
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: what they like. Listen, they like football, Labor Day, the

506
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: February two. If you're not talking at sevent of the

507
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: time you're doing your audience and disservice and your advertisers,

508
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: your partners. The media tends to think they're smarter and

509
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: funnier and more clever than they are. Play the hits.

510
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: Respect your audience, Understand what topics resonate, don't outthink the room.

511
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: So finally, if you could go back in time, what

512
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: advice would you give your twenty one year old self.

513
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: Oh boy, that's a good question. SE's where do I start.

514
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: I grew up a child of divorce alcoholic father. Although

515
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: he was a very gracious guy. He wasn't a mean drinker,

516
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: very thoughtful, sweet, sweet guy. And because I didn't feel

517
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: I had sometimes the necessary support, I became self reliant

518
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 1: to a fault, and my only way to win and

519
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: succeed in my twenties in early thirties was fear based,

520
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: and I didn't look like who I was becoming. It

521
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: was I had to win, and I wanted to be

522
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: more joy based. I wanted to be happy when other

523
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: people were successful. I was given some advice. It was

524
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: sometime in nineteen eighty nine. I got out of college

525
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: in eight six and went to Vegas. It was probably

526
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: eighties seven and I was on a sales call with

527
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: my boss, Don Logan, and he had to go to

528
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: a big account and meet with the president of the

529
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: Union Plaza. And he didn't want me in the room.

530
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: I was too young. I was probably five years old.

531
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: So I went to the Union Plaza and I sat

532
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: next to a guy and he looked like he'd made money,

533
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: but he'd earned it. He was a Texan. He had

534
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: a rolex on, a white shirt, tan skinned, kind of

535
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: a you know, like a Marlboro Man looking guy. He

536
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: was sitting there with a whiskey rocks and planned poker

537
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: and he was waiting for a taxicab and he just

538
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: had a pretty good weekend there and he just sold

539
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: a bunch of radio and TV stations in Texas or Arkansas.

540
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: And I remember asking him, what advice would you give me?

541
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: And it really resonated with me, and it really does now.

542
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: He said, be happy for other people's success, beyond yourself.

543
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: And he said it and it was one of those

544
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: things that sounded great. But I wasn't in a space

545
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 1: to be able to do that because I was so

546
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: fear based and I just had to succeed. I knew

547
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: I had nothing to go back to really in rural Washington,

548
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: but I've gone back to that multiple times in my life,

549
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons I love the volume

550
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: where I'm finding all this young talent and helping it

551
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: grow and promoting it. I wish I was more joy

552
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: based in my twenties and less fear based. I like

553
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: my competitive spirit, but I don't want it to be

554
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: hurting others. And I don't think I cared much about

555
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: how it ended into my twenties and early thirties, and

556
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,479
Speaker 1: that was my reality, that was my psychology. So I've

557
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: gone to a lot of therapy on that. I'm generally

558
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: and genuinely happy for other sportscasters who have success. It

559
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: makes me happy. It brings a smile to my face

560
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: to see people kick butt, make money, get married, family success,

561
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: and I don't think I was capable of that in

562
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: my twenties, just based on my childhood and what I

563
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: was dealing with personally. So we end each episode of

564
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,719
Speaker 1: Math and Magic by giving a shout out to the greats,

565
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: because Math and Magic is about the analytical side of business,

566
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: the math, and the really creative side of business, the magic.

567
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: You know, it's rare you find one person who does

568
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: both equally. Well, who's your mathematician, who's your magician? Let

569
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: me start with my magician. I'm not sure if you

570
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: ever read the Steve Jobs book. I think it was

571
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: by Walter Isaacson. It was like four books in one.

572
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: You learn about technology, Microsoft, Steve Jobs, Apple. You know.

573
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: One of the things I took from that that I

574
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: thought was so fascinating was that Steve Jobs his vision

575
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: of the iPhone is I'm going to create something you

576
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: can't live without, but you don't know it yet. I

577
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: think that's so fascinating, and I think so few people

578
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: can do that that I can't live without my iPhone today.

579
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs saw that thirty years ago, twenty years ago.

580
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: To be able to see around that corner, it's wizardry.

581
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: I'm endlessly fascinated with the future and mostly bored with

582
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: the past, and so Steve Jobs, to me is everything

583
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: I would want from a boss. I just think he's

584
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: such a unique American innovator the math question. One of

585
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: the most fascinating people in sports, and you would not

586
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: think of him as mad athy, but he was a chemist.

587
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: Was Jerry Buss, the former owner of the Lakers and

588
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: Jerry Buss through his personal Piccadillos really changed sports in America.

589
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: That he brought the Laker girls. Nobody did that, the

590
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: forum club, nobody did that, the lighting for Laker games.

591
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: It became a television product, not just an in person product.

592
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: When I look at the structural branding of the Lakers,

593
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: from the uniform colors to putting celebrities in the front row,

594
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: to the nightclub atmosphere, it's almost like Jerry Buss skipped

595
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: a generation. He was a generation ahead of everybody on that.

596
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: It's why the Lakers are one of the only major

597
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: cities in America that are a basketball brand over a

598
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: football brand. He just vis really just emotionally connected. The

599
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: mailman in your street, the celebrity in Beverly Hills or

600
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: bell Air. They all felt the same about the Lakers.

601
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: It was their team. He made sports cool. When I

602
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: watched the winning time on HBO, I sat back and

603
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 1: I thought he was decades ahead of his time. Colin.

604
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: Congrats on all your success and thanks for sharing your

605
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: stories today. Ah Bob, thanks so much. I loved it.

606
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and thanks, by the way for

607
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: all you're doing with us. We love having you as

608
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: part of our family too. I love being part of

609
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:44,959
Speaker 1: the family. Thank you, Bob. Here are a few things

610
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: I picked up in my conversation with Colin. One, listen

611
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: to your audience. Collins advice to advertisers is when the

612
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: audience tells you what they like, believe them. Colin says,

613
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 1: play the hits and don't try to outthink the room.

614
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: To us the ball, even the most skilled athletes shouldn't

615
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: hog the ball. By sharing responsibilities among a trusted team,

616
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: you can amplify everyone's strings. Three. Prioritize cause over effect.

617
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: When doing research, Colin doesn't ask what he asked why.

618
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: This curiosity around root causes is one of the things

619
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: that makes Colin such a compelling storyteller. I'm Bob Pittman.

620
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so

621
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: much for listening to Math and Magic, a production of

622
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. The show is hosted by Bob Pittman.

623
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Susan Ward for booking and wrangling our

624
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: wonderful talent, which is no small feet. Our editors are

625
00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: Derrek Clements and Emily Maynot. Our producer Morgan Levoy, our

626
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: executive producer Nikki Etour and of course Gail Raoul, Eeric Angel,

627
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: Noel and everyone who helped bring this show to your ears.

628
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: Until next time,