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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight,

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Speaker 2: or shoot.

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Speaker 1: Us an email at trust Me pod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived to.

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Speaker 4: You and never a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't Welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two groupies who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm low LeBlanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. And today our

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Speaker 2: guest is Jay van Babel. He's Associate Professor of psychology

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Speaker 2: and neuroscience at NYU, where he's also the director of

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Speaker 2: the Social Identity and Morality Lab, and he's the co

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Speaker 2: author of an excellent book called the Power of Us.

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Speaker 2: He's going to talk to us about social identity and

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Speaker 2: how we have many of them that can morph and

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Speaker 2: change depending on our circums stances. How the group we

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Speaker 2: identify with can affect not just our decisions, but also

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Speaker 2: our perception and how groups will inevitably form leaders. So

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Speaker 2: it's important to implement hierarchy in a healthy way and

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Speaker 2: not just leave it to the charismatic people.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, we'll also discuss how emotionally charged situations create shared

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Speaker 1: identity and how cults systematically replace individual identities with the

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Speaker 1: group identity, which then makes it even harder to penetrate

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Speaker 1: their belief system. Plus ways to intervene when someone has

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Speaker 1: fallen prey to group think, whether groups can be good,

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Speaker 1: and lots more.

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Speaker 2: Lots more. I love this conversation.

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Speaker 1: He's great.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, talking for hours before we get in with Jay.

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Speaker 2: Tell me, please, what your cultiest thing this week is?

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Speaker 1: Minds sad? But I know, I guess this happened in May,

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Speaker 1: but I'm just reading about it now. A scientologist, this

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Speaker 1: beautiful forty year old woman in Florida recently shot herself

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Speaker 1: and then let herself on fire because she wanted to

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Speaker 1: drop the body and go to a new one because

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Speaker 1: limes disease. So lots of stuff coming out of the

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Speaker 1: church saying we never say drop the body or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. But then they're showing her text messages with

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Speaker 1: somebody talking about how she wants to do the quote

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Speaker 1: unquote assist of dropping the body.

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Speaker 2: And is the person in those texts like affirming that

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Speaker 2: that's thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she goes, oops, I made a mistake. I asked

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Speaker 1: for the assist and the girl goes oopsy. She didn't say,

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Speaker 1: what's those cyst you know, she just said, oh, you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't do that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but they mean. I mean, I guess that.

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Speaker 1: The girl she was talking to is kind of like

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Speaker 1: covering her ass and being like, well, oops, don't don't

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Speaker 1: talk about that, like it exists, but we don't do it.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that it exists means somebody might do it.

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Speaker 2: That is a part of their belief system. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: they just don't like to advertise, you know what.

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Speaker 1: It's like Mormonism and polygamy. It's like, we don't do

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Speaker 1: that anymore, the mainstreams.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, well they don't do it anymore, but

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Speaker 2: they it is. It is part of the history for sure, right, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 2: or like blood atonement, how blood atonement was a part

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Speaker 2: of a Mormon history, but they pretend that it exactly

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Speaker 2: or at least the concept of it.

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Speaker 1: That's super sad, I know, Sorry, guys, I just I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if this is going to maybe cause a stir

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Speaker 1: within the community.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't hear about that from anyone, but

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Speaker 2: you so I wonder so.

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Speaker 1: Not causing a stir exactly.

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Speaker 2: Also, but I mean I also haven't been looking at

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Speaker 2: the news that much, so maybe I just missed it.

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Speaker 2: But I mean I would hope that that would bring

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Speaker 2: more attention to me too, potentially harmful. Yeah about you, Well,

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Speaker 2: you know we got to talk about Andrew Tate.

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Speaker 1: Oh God, give it to me, Okay.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'm sure everybody pretty knows pretty much

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Speaker 2: knows who this guy is at this point, but the

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Speaker 2: if you look up toxic mail and the dictionary, it

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Speaker 2: will be him who, for some reason, people love on

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Speaker 2: the internet has been arrested at long last on charges

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Speaker 2: of human trafficking, rape, and forming an organized crime group.

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Speaker 2: It is no secret that this man is into rape.

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Speaker 2: He has talked about it in a way that would

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Speaker 2: indicate that a number of times. There's been video of

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Speaker 2: him beating a woman. He talks about how women belong

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Speaker 2: in the home. People have accused him of these things,

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Speaker 2: but it's just so crazy because he's been running Hustler University,

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Speaker 2: Which are you a cartoon university? A cartoon villain? This

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Speaker 2: man is where busloads of American men and British men

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Speaker 2: have just been trucking in to go to Hustler's University,

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Speaker 2: where they've literally just been like forcing women to do

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Speaker 2: porn and or sex x that they didn't want to do.

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Speaker 2: Like I, how is it real? How is it real?

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad he's arrested, and the way he's arrested

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Speaker 2: is the funniest thing ever, because for anyone who doesn't

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Speaker 2: know you saw his tweet to Greta Thunberg. Of course,

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Speaker 2: Hello Greta Thunberg on Twitter, I have thirty three cars.

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Speaker 2: Please provide your email address so I can send a

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Speaker 2: complete list of my car collection and the respect of

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Speaker 2: enormous emissions, she says back, Yes, please do enlighten me.

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Speaker 2: Email me at small Dick Energy at gett alife dot com.

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Speaker 2: He then posts a video of himself wearing a Versace robe,

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Speaker 2: smoking his cigar, and describing her as a bitter slave

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Speaker 2: of the matrix who's trying to convince you to beg

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Speaker 2: your government to tax you into poverty to stop the

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Speaker 2: sun from being hot. He then gestures off camera asks

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Speaker 2: someone to bring him pizza and the pizza place. The

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Speaker 2: location of the pizza place is the thing that gets

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Speaker 2: him arrested because he's been.

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Speaker 1: On cartoon so long, literal cartoon.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny, it's so funny. What he's done is

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Speaker 2: not fucking funny, but the fact that that is how

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Speaker 2: he went down is so funny. Like there's just you

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Speaker 2: can't eat the small dick energy is so strong. The

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Speaker 2: need to look like a big man is so big

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Speaker 2: that he can't even stop himself from releasing a video

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Speaker 2: talking about how great and manly he is that gets

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Speaker 2: him fucking arrested.

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Speaker 1: Well, something else you were saying earlier that is very

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Speaker 1: interesting is that the Taliban is angry that he's arrested.

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Speaker 2: Taliban wants him to be free.

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Speaker 1: They're like, I mean, and I was just saying, I

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Speaker 1: think that's how you know you're on the wrong track

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Speaker 1: is if the Taliban is like, you're cool, this is good?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's not great.

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Speaker 1: In this episode, I call myself cool. I'd like to

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Speaker 1: just say I don't think that I am.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for that clarification when you say it,

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Speaker 2: When you said Wow, she's just gonna commit.

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Speaker 1: She's I was going to say cold, and I said cool,

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Speaker 1: and I did.

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Speaker 2: You guys will know what we're talking about in a

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Speaker 2: few minutes. That is amazing. Yeah, okay, like damn the

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Speaker 2: confidence on megget.

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Speaker 1: I'm cool. You'll see.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's talk to Jay and you can all

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Speaker 2: hear exactly what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Trust Me is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Jay van Babel to trust me.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for being with us. So you are

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Speaker 2: so cool. You've done so much research on group identity,

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Speaker 2: social identity. Okay, So you're the Associate Professor of Psychology

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Speaker 2: and Neural Science at NYU, the director of the Social

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Speaker 2: Identity and Morality Lab, which is where also any that

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Speaker 2: makes sense, and co author of the Power of Us,

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Speaker 2: which I started reading and it is very very good.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us, first of all, what led you

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Speaker 2: to this field and what made you interested in these topics?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I got fascinated with group psychology ever

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Speaker 4: since I've been young. I cite a lot of sports

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Speaker 4: and So I love the dynamics of sports teams and

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Speaker 4: when people get really identified and they can work together

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Speaker 4: and they can either be like curly cohesive or fall apart.

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Speaker 4: And then I started also getting interested in things like discrimination.

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Speaker 4: Why do some groups discriminate against others? And what is

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Speaker 4: the psychology of that? And then more recently I've been

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Speaker 4: interested in, you know, those factors of identity and groupishness

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Speaker 4: in all kinds of other spaces. So how that plays

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Speaker 4: out on social media, how that plays out in politics,

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Speaker 4: how that plays out in cults. And so I'm really

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Speaker 4: interested in kind of these group dynamics and all these

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Speaker 4: different parts of our lives.

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Speaker 1: Me too, groups are so stressful, just the word group.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So first of all, what is social identity?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so identity. Most people understand what identity is, right,

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Speaker 4: It's who I am, it's her sense of self. Social

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Speaker 4: identity means part of our sense of self comes from

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Speaker 4: the groups that we belong to. And so here's a

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Speaker 4: little exercise you can put yourself. So I'll put you

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Speaker 4: both through it. Right now, answer the question I am

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Speaker 4: blank five times? So each shake, turn and say, what

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Speaker 4: are the first kind of five parts of our identity?

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Speaker 3: That come to mind.

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Speaker 2: Oh god, I am creative.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it is so early for me to

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Speaker 1: say good things about myself. Okay.

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Speaker 2: I am funny, I am anxious, I am cool. I

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Speaker 2: am a filmmaker, I am an artist, I am curious.

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Speaker 1: I am not a morning person.

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Speaker 2: I am a writer.

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Speaker 1: I am hungry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 4: So some of those things that you mentioned are like

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Speaker 4: states like I'm hungry right now. Some of them are

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Speaker 4: traits like I'm curious, and those are often stable traits.

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Speaker 4: But a couple of things you mentioned are actually social identities.

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Speaker 4: So when you mentioned I'm a filmmaker, it means that

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Speaker 4: you identify with other people who are making films.

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Speaker 3: You might talk to.

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Speaker 4: Them, you might go to their websites, you might be

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Speaker 4: inspired by what they've done. You might do like group

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Speaker 4: meetups or drinks or conferences or writer. So I became

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Speaker 4: an author once I published my book, which I was

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Speaker 4: a new identity, and then all of a sudden you

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Speaker 4: kind of get into this whole new world of other

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Speaker 4: people who written books, other authors, and they treat you different.

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Speaker 4: And so that's what social identities are. It's some part

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Speaker 4: of ourself that is defined in part by the groups

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Speaker 4: we belong to, and when you identify with a group,

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Speaker 4: it comes with this certain set of norms. So for me,

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Speaker 4: let's say one of my identities is I'm a scientist.

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Speaker 4: It means that, like I have to care a lot

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Speaker 4: about the truth. I have to like go through care

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Speaker 4: about things like peer review, I have to do like experiments,

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Speaker 4: and I have to have other scientists who judge and

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Speaker 4: criticize me all the time.

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Speaker 3: That's part of it.

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Speaker 4: When I go home, I'm a dad, I have young kids,

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Speaker 4: and like I completely forget about my job, and they

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Speaker 4: like want me to help them with their homework or

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Speaker 4: make dinner or play board game with them, and so

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Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I have a different set of

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Speaker 4: norms and expectations of what it is to.

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Speaker 3: Be a dad that come to mind.

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Speaker 4: And so in a given day, you have all these

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Speaker 4: different identities inside you, and you kind of move from

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Speaker 4: one situation to the other and different identities spring to mind.

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Speaker 4: So if you're like a filmmaker, it's maybe when you're

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Speaker 4: like thinking and working on your film that you're thinking

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Speaker 4: through that lens. What will other filmmakers think? What would

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Speaker 4: great filmmaker do here?

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Speaker 3: What was I trained? You know?

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Speaker 4: In filmmaking school to do whereas like you know, you

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Speaker 4: go to another part of your life. I was the

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Speaker 4: see you're wearing like a Calve's sweatshirt. I don't know

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Speaker 4: if you're like an alumni.

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Speaker 3: No, I actually thought.

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Speaker 1: That when I wore this today, I was like, what

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Speaker 1: am I doing? This is such a weird day to

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Speaker 1: do this. But is it just a shirt?

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Speaker 4: So if I saw like a sweatshirt like that on campus,

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Speaker 4: I would think, oh, that's a student who's visiting from

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Speaker 4: calum maybe did their degree at Callen's now a professor

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Speaker 4: or a graduate student at n YU.

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Speaker 3: Because that's another way we signal.

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Speaker 4: Our identities, what university when we went to or college,

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Speaker 4: or what sports team we cheer for. A lot of

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Speaker 4: people like are identified with sports teams at colleges, and

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Speaker 4: so once you kind of put on once you identified

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Speaker 4: the group, and that that identity is triggered. It's like

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Speaker 4: putting on a pair of sunglasses where everything looks a

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Speaker 4: little different and you're kind of seeing the world through

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Speaker 4: a different lens.

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Speaker 2: So we can have multiple identities and it just really

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Speaker 2: depends on where we are and who we're with. And yeah, and.

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Speaker 4: That's one of the things like when you when you

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Speaker 4: if you ever go to a date. Part of that's

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Speaker 4: what you're doing when you're like asking these questions and

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Speaker 4: trying to get to know the person is trying to

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Speaker 4: figure out like do we share identities, do we share

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Speaker 4: groups that we care about? Or obviously you just can

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Speaker 4: now online do it on like your dating profile, and

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Speaker 4: people put the strangest identities on there.

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Speaker 3: They might put like filmmaker or like horror film.

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Speaker 4: Enthusiast, but they also put things like like their their

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Speaker 4: personality profile and the Meyers Briggs test, yeah, or what

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Speaker 4: what you know.

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Speaker 3: They did that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: What is your eniogram? The like one, three or twelve?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, so so THO turns out those are pretty

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Speaker 5: much just pseudoscience. Yeah a psychologists, and I would like

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Speaker 5: I I company spend billions of dollars giving these people,

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Speaker 5: but they're basically basically junk junk science.

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Speaker 3: But the reason people love them is because.

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Speaker 4: It puts you in a box and it gives you

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Speaker 4: an identity and then it's like, oh, you know, you know,

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Speaker 4: Amelia Earhart and Einstein were also whatever you know, and

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Speaker 4: enter whatever that I am. And so that's the type

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Speaker 4: of thing people actually want to be put in a box.

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Speaker 4: They'll say they want to be individuals, but they also

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Speaker 4: want to have these group identities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean random example. But like I said,

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Speaker 2: I'm anxious to me, that actually like sort of because

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Speaker 2: I have, well, I have been diagnosed with OCD and

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Speaker 2: struggle with anxiety. But I actually don't think it's it's

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Speaker 2: like not that useful as a label other than it

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Speaker 2: helps me go online and find other people who have

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Speaker 2: OCD and get to talk about this thing that I

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Speaker 2: have and now I have like a framework for it

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Speaker 2: to understand what I'm experiencing as opposed to just like

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Speaker 2: I'm someone who who gets anxious a lot.

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Speaker 4: Is that yeah, I would say that's like one of

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Speaker 4: the cool things that the internet gave us, right, is

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Speaker 4: that you can kind of find your tribe no matter

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Speaker 4: where you are, what you're into, you can find people

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Speaker 4: like you, and you can share tips, you can provide

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Speaker 4: social support, you can get together. So this is like

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Speaker 4: triggers like gatherings and social events and so this is

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Speaker 4: like the cool thing is that. And people now on

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Speaker 4: their social media often will send out a little bat signals.

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Speaker 4: So if you look at like their profile, they'll have

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Speaker 4: a bunch of their social identities, like in their profile.

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Speaker 3: On Twitter or Facebook or.

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Speaker 4: Instagram, of course, And what they're doing is signaling to

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Speaker 4: look at me. If you check my profilef here, like me,

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Speaker 4: follow me.

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Speaker 3: And we're a part of the drive.

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Speaker 1: Right what's happening and groups becoming more small and more

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Speaker 1: specific and us finding people who like exactly the same

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Speaker 1: niche thing as us. Is that a good thing?

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's good.

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Speaker 4: But here's a two big things that groups do for us,

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Speaker 4: and the groups that fulfill both of these little needs

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Speaker 4: are super attractive to people, super sticky. So one is

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Speaker 4: it gives us a sense of belonging. So humans have

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Speaker 4: this deep rooted sense of belonging, you know. And I'll

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Speaker 4: just put it in evolutionary sense. We evolved in small

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Speaker 4: groups in the savannah, and humans aren't fast or strong

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Speaker 4: or poisonous. We can't fly away, and so we would

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Speaker 4: have got picked off pretty quickly if we were kicked

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Speaker 4: out of our group. That's why people are terrified of

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Speaker 4: getting like socially shamed or ostracized. Because our ancestors who

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Speaker 4: got shamed died and they didn't pass on their genes.

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Speaker 4: So we're the we're the ancestors of like one hundred

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Speaker 4: generations of humans who fit in and found a sense

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Speaker 4: of belonging. But we don't want to fit in too much.

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Speaker 4: We want to fit into groups that make us feel

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Speaker 4: distinct and special.

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Speaker 3: And so this is one of.

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Speaker 4: The reasons why like people love like little specialty groups,

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Speaker 4: because you get to feel like you're distinct from society

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Speaker 4: and yet a sense of belonging. And this is like

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Speaker 4: I would say, this is like the ethos of like

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Speaker 4: punks or goths, and I'll see them like on the subway,

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Speaker 4: and you can ask them, like, why do you all

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Speaker 4: dress alike?

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Speaker 3: And they'll say, what are you talking about. We're non conformists.

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Speaker 4: But from the outside they all look like they hit

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Speaker 4: they're conformists, right, But them they're conforming to an.

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Speaker 3: An anti kind of counterculture, right.

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Speaker 4: So they see themselves as actually super distinctive from society

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Speaker 4: and they have this tight sense of belonging and cohesion,

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Speaker 4: and so those are really powerful identities for people. It's

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Speaker 4: why clubs like dance clubs and nightclubs have like a

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Speaker 4: big velvet rope and you have to wait a long

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Speaker 4: line to get in. There's a bouncer and they're like

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Speaker 4: picking the people who are like good good to have

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Speaker 4: in the club. And I've been to clubs where like

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Speaker 4: you wait in nine half an hour, you get in,

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Speaker 4: there's like twelve people inside.

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Speaker 3: But it's all to create this illusion that it's like

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Speaker 3: this exclusive, distinctive club.

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Speaker 2: Right, So can you guy us some examples of how

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Speaker 2: we've seen it play out in studies that we prefer

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Speaker 2: our group to other groups?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so the most I think this is one of

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Speaker 4: the most important studies in fifty years in social psychology.

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Speaker 4: They basically flipped a coin and put a bunch of

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Speaker 4: teenagers in two groups. And you didn't even get to

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Speaker 4: meet anybody in your group. You didn't get to meet

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Speaker 4: anybody in the other group, but you just simply knew

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Speaker 4: that you shared an identity with them.

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Speaker 3: And then you gave.

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Speaker 4: People some money, and they got to figure out how

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Speaker 4: much money they wanted to give to an in group

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Speaker 4: member and an outgroup member. And even though they didn't

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Speaker 4: know people in other group, there was no stereotypes about

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Speaker 4: the group, there was no history of conflict. People started

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Speaker 4: giving more money to their in group than the outgroup

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Speaker 4: like instantly. And I've run this variant of this study

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Speaker 4: in multiple countries. I run this in my classroom. I'll

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Speaker 4: just the split the class into two sides, and by

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Speaker 4: the end of the class, they say they identify more

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Speaker 4: with their group, and they like their group more, even

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Speaker 4: if they've never even really interacted them, even if they're

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Speaker 4: total strangers.

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Speaker 3: And so that's the power of groups. It's just simply

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Speaker 3: flip a coin.

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Speaker 4: Putting us on a group is like a switch going

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Speaker 4: off in our brain that signals that's my team, that's

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Speaker 4: my tribe.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. I went to a escape room on weekend

402
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Speaker 1: and one of my friends and it did like didn't care,

403
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Speaker 1: just didn't care. There was two different teams. They split

404
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,399
Speaker 1: us in two, and so I'd be like unlocking the

405
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Speaker 1: safe and I'd have the numbers of my head and

406
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Speaker 1: be like seventy two man forty, like just saying other numbers,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I hate. I got so angry.

408
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Speaker 3: And I was like the other group is beating us.

409
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Speaker 1: And like screaming mad, you know, and I was just like,

410
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Speaker 1: how is he He's like enlightened, he turned off the

411
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Speaker 1: switch in his brain that gives a shit about winning,

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Speaker 1: and like getting this group to win. It was so weird.

413
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Speaker 1: I mean he was also probably on mushrooms. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it was strange. It happened so quickly. They just divided us.

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Speaker 1: And now I'm like, my whole, my whole sense of

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Speaker 1: self depends on how we do.

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Speaker 2: We did horribly, but yeah, the thing that I find

418
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Speaker 2: scary is not that we prefer our group, but that

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Speaker 2: we will try to disadvantage the other group in favor of.

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Speaker 1: Our Well, I would have sabotaged the other group hard.

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Speaker 2: And it's based on nothing, as you're saying, like, it

422
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 2: could be totally arbitrary if it's we just happen to

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Speaker 2: both like that sign over there, Like suddenly we're gonna

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Speaker 2: make sure that the group who likes the other sign

425
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Speaker 2: over there is getting less money than us. Like why, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: here's the thing.

427
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Speaker 4: It makes us feel a sense of status and distinctiveness. Right,

428
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,360
Speaker 4: if we're better than the other group, that's what makes

429
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Speaker 4: us special. And so this is why people are obsessed

430
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Speaker 4: with being part of like successful groups or high status groups.

431
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 4: Is it makes us feel good. This is why.

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Speaker 3: So I think of it. In sports, you.

433
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Speaker 4: Have all these people who are like watching at home

434
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Speaker 4: in their living room by themselves, and they're cheering or

435
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,880
Speaker 4: you can see grown men crying in their living room

436
00:19:58,920 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 4: because their team lost.

437
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,119
Speaker 3: They had nothing to do with it. They weren't on

438
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Speaker 3: the field, they didn't they didn't go to.

439
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Speaker 4: Practices, They've done nothing to contribute to the team's success

440
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Speaker 4: or failure, and yet they feel it as if it's

441
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Speaker 4: like as something deeply personal and.

442
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 3: Important to them.

443
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cana test, sports fan boyfriend, Cana Test. Yeah. Something

444
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,640
Speaker 2: else that you've talked about that I think is really

445
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 2: really interesting is this idea that we don't just like

446
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 2: make different decisions based on our group, we also perceive

447
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 2: things differently based on our group. We literally taken the

448
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 2: same exact information completely differently depending on what grouper And

449
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,439
Speaker 2: can you just give us an example of that?

450
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's lots of great examples of this.

451
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 4: One of the famous ones that we talk about. I'll

452
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,440
Speaker 4: use example of sports again is if you have sports fans.

453
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 4: There's a famous college football game, and the sports the

454
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 4: fans from the two different teams saw the game completely differently,

455
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,159
Speaker 4: had different memories of which teams committed more fouls, And

456
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,199
Speaker 4: then they ran a study where they showed, you know,

457
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 4: students from each university that these teams were from It

458
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 4: was actually from Dartmouth and Princeton, and the professors just

459
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 4: showed them, you know, a video reel of the game,

460
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 4: and they still had different perceptions of what happened. And

461
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 4: so it's it's something that it's very hard to hear.

462
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,880
Speaker 4: And this is why everybody hates refs and umps. It's why,

463
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 4: like on social media platforms, people hate the moderators. The

464
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 4: always think that their group is being unfairly moderated. And

465
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 4: it's because it's the big reason, in the big explanations,

466
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 4: because they're biased. It's also why people think the media

467
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 4: is biased. I was I was scrolling that someone posted this.

468
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 4: I started scrolling through it. It's like the New York Times,

469
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 4: which I read. You know, you can go online on

470
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 4: Twitter and there will be a ton of people calling

471
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,919
Speaker 4: the New York Times fascist and a bunch of now

472
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,640
Speaker 4: the whole others that calling them like communist. And so

473
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,640
Speaker 4: is it is it far right or is it far

474
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 4: left or is it really more kind of like center

475
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,479
Speaker 4: center left? And people from extreme beliefs really see it

476
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 4: through the lens as an enemy because it's not producing

477
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 4: exactly what they want or occasionally produced to something that

478
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 4: they don't like, And so that's kind of like our

479
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 4: identities and how it affects how we interpret kind of

480
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:07,480
Speaker 4: all kinds of things relationships.

481
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 3: By the way, one of the biggest.

482
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 4: Predictors of who you like in a relationship is do

483
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 4: they share your politics? And so even things like attractiveness

484
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 4: attractiveness to somebody are heavily determined by our identities.

485
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 2: Interesting, so are we less likely to say our real

486
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 2: opinion if we are in a group that we identify with?

487
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it really depends this is what It really

488
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 4: depends on the norms of the group. So I would

489
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 4: say there's two big elements to how group identity works.

490
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 4: One is do you care about the group an you

491
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 4: identify with them? And then the second is what are

492
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 4: the norms of the group. And so some groups have

493
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 4: wide open, wide arranging debates, and when they do this,

494
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 4: those groups actually outperform pretty much every other group.

495
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 3: And if you look in companies, one of my favorite

496
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 3: studies was in Google teams in the company that had

497
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 3: kind of what's called psychological safety.

498
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 4: People felt comfortable chain lenging one another kind of with

499
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 4: crazy ideas, saying something that went against the status quo.

500
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 4: Those teams were more successful, and the ones that didn't

501
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 4: allow that were actually the least successful.

502
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: So those are the ones that.

503
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 4: Have groupthink in them, where everybody's walking on eggshells or

504
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 4: they feel uncomfortable speaking in their mind, and so you

505
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 4: can get that really bad. And throughout history there's lots

506
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 4: of examples of where organizations and leaders create a group think.

507
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 4: You see it on all kinds of groups, and so

508
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 4: that's something that is kind of within the power of

509
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 4: the group to create. They can create a situation that

510
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 4: leads to groupthink, or they can create a situation that

511
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 4: actually makes the group smarter. And I run studies in

512
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 4: my lab where groups are smarter than a group of

513
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 4: individuals as long as they feel like they're on the

514
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 4: same page and they're supporting one another.

515
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 3: But groups can also become way dumber than.

516
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 4: Individuals if they have bad culture.

517
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: Of bad norms.

518
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: Right, But that depends on when do.

519
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 4: You start to get into cults. By the way, version

520
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 4: of that is cult psychology.

521
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 3: Right.

522
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, you need a leader, though,

523
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: correct for us to work, right, So leadership is actually

524
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 1: oddly anti group think. Good leadership good.

525
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you've touched on something that most people get wrong.

526
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 4: Most people think that leadership strong leaders lead to groupthink.

527
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 4: In reality, strong leaders are critical for stopping groupthink because

528
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 4: they don't get threatened to when they're challenged. They invite

529
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 4: other people to take turns talking. So I'll just give

530
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 4: you an example of how I run my own research lab.

531
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 4: We have lab meetings once a week. I actually don't

532
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 4: share my opinion first when we have lab meetings to

533
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 4: discuss papers and projects. And the reason for that is

534
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 4: because I'm in a position of power. If I have

535
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 4: a strong opinion, people will just agree with me or

536
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 4: bite their tongue, and so I have to be aware

537
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 4: of that and kind of like be a little bit

538
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 4: quiet until I hear what everybody thinks and then I

539
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 4: can weigh in, and that way I kind of surface

540
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 4: all the interesting ideas that people have. But you can

541
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 4: be a strong leader and feel like you have to

542
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 4: dominate the conversation always and then people will just kind

543
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 4: of go along or you get really I mean, anybody's

544
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 4: been on a team where they have a leader who

545
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 4: gets really snappy, their challenged or insecure, or lashes out

546
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 4: or needs to take all the credit.

547
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: And that's kind of the recipe that leads to groupthink.

548
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 2: And if there's a group that ostensibly doesn't have a leader,

549
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: does a leader just naturally emerge anyway?

550
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, leaders usually emerge.

551
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 4: Will I will say, there is this very trendy thing

552
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 4: to have like slat groups with no leaders, and the

553
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 4: research is coming out more and more that that's not

554
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 4: very effective. It's not effective in sports teams, it's not

555
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 4: effective in most organizations. People like to know who to

556
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 4: look to, who to trust, who sets the norms and

557
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 4: is going to be a role model. What you often

558
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 4: have is if there's no leader, you can say, well,

559
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 4: we're not going to have a leader. People organically emerge

560
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 4: to be leader, and the unfortunate thing is sometimes they're

561
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 4: good and sometimes they're bad. So it's better to be

562
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 4: smart about thinking about who is good to promote into

563
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 4: a position of leadership that actually cares about the group,

564
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 4: that kind of embodies its values, that you know, that

565
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 4: has the skills to.

566
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 3: Be an effective leader, and think about how you bring that.

567
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 4: Person up and train them and so part them rather

568
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 4: than just say oh, we're not going to ignore leaders. Well,

569
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 4: leaders are going to form in that situation, in that vacuum,

570
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 4: and they might not be the person you want.

571
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean I I this is one of

572
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: the mistakes that I made in a group situation where

573
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, well, we'll all it's it's democracy,

574
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: we'll all, you know. And inevitably that led to conflict

575
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 2: because hierarchies form, and then people resent the hierarchies. And

576
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: it's almost like you do need to implement one, implement

577
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: a hierarchy from the beginning, but just do it mindfully

578
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 2: so that.

579
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, find the person with the most charisma and say no,

580
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: not you.

581
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 4: I'll tell you the traits that lead to bad leaders. Okay,

582
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 4: charisma can be good, but not when it comes with

583
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 4: these things.

584
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 3: So here's the three. It's called the dark triad. I

585
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 3: love this name.

586
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 4: It's people who score high on makum Valianism, so super manipulative,

587
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 4: people who score high on narcissism, so they think they're

588
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 4: better than everybody else. And part of it is people

589
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 4: who score high on psychopathy, so people who have no empathy.

590
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 4: And if you have those three traits, you have the

591
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 4: kind of ingredients for a terrible leader. And I'll tell

592
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 4: you two bad things that happen. One is, there's this

593
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 4: great book called Snakes and Suits, and they it's an

594
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 4: analysis of these type of people, especially psychopaths, and in companies.

595
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 4: As you go up in a company, there tends to

596
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 4: be more more psychopaths at the top. And they rise

597
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 4: because they take credit for everybody else's work. They have

598
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 4: sharp almos, so they hoard resources and so and then

599
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 4: they're the worst people to work on it, right, so

600
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 4: it be absolutely brutal to their staff. But they rise

601
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 4: up to positions of power because we have a systems

602
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 4: that reward them.

603
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 3: Another place.

604
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 4: The other place I've seen this a study I just

605
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 4: saw a couple of weeks ago, is with senators.

606
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: So let's go to us.

607
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 4: Senators the ones who people who are most likely to

608
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 4: get re elected at like they're on the dark triad.

609
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 4: They're the people who are more likely to have traits

610
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 4: that look like narcissism and machiavelianism and psychopathy.

611
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 3: Here's the problem.

612
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 4: They're more likely to get reelect, but they're less likely

613
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 4: to actually pass bills as they're so focused on themselves

614
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 4: they can't cooperate and get stuff done. And so we

615
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 4: have also what's happening in organizations where we're having psychopaths

616
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 4: rise to the top, is happening in politics, that we're

617
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 4: promoting and re electing leaders who have these terrible sets

618
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 4: of traits and not electing the ones who actually get

619
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 4: stuff done for the betterment of society.

620
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 2: Right, someone who's narcissistic doesn't care about figuring out the

621
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: best solution for the group. They just care about looking

622
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: like they did. Yeah, and why is it that they

623
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: get re elected? I mean, why are we drawn to

624
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 2: those types of personalities?

625
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 4: I mean, think about the incentive structure of the media

626
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 4: and social media to get attention, to get money. It's

627
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 4: putting yourself out there, making sure that you're the dominant voice.

628
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: It's also taking credit for things you didn't do. That's

629
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 3: the psychopathy pieces for.

630
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 4: Being really manipulative and using people like means to an end,

631
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 4: that's the Macie rebellion and piece.

632
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 3: So those are actually, it turns out to me, pretty.

633
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 4: Useful traits for getting power, unfortunately, and we reward them.

634
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 4: I mean, think of Here's another thing is people who

635
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 4: are often most hostile and social media, even not politicians,

636
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 4: often score really high on status seeking and narcissism. And

637
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 4: so everyone's posting non stop, being super aggressive, manipulating people,

638
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 4: trying to make themselves look good, even if behind the

639
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 4: scenes they're actually a nasty person. And so that's a

640
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 4: really useful trait for getting status and attention and credit

641
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 4: in the technology we've created, Right.

642
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: I think I heard you say somewhere that like sixty

643
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: seven percent more shares come if you say something about

644
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: the other side, not your group. So, yeah, it makes

645
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: sense that we would be rewarding people who are willing

646
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: to do that.

647
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

648
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're willing to dunk on other people.

649
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 4: You know, it gets more attention, it gets more followers,

650
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: it gets more shares, it gets more clout.

651
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, it's usually coming at the

652
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 3: cost of somebody.

653
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so talk to us about how difficult or

654
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: most charge situations can kind of forge a shared identity.

655
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is sometimes a good thing, right, when

656
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 4: there's a crisis, people can come together. So the one

657
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 4: of the amazing papers we found that we talked about

658
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 4: the story in our book was there was a plane

659
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 4: that was hijacked in the seventies by these essentially these terrorists.

660
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: And you know, when you go on a plane, I've

661
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 3: been on lots of plane rides. You know, I put

662
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 3: on my.

663
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 4: Headphones, I watch a movie or I read a book,

664
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 4: I don't really talk to anybody.

665
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 3: I don't even really want to talk to anybody.

666
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 4: And that's how most of us like treat a plane trip, right,

667
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 4: But when you're hijacked, people all of a sudden developed

668
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 4: a shared identity as passengers, and they shared resources, shared food,

669
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 4: they ration things, they support on one another. And so

670
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 4: in a crisis, people come together. All of a sudden,

671
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 4: they created a new identity of passengers or hostages. And

672
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 4: so this is what happens in the world all the time.

673
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 4: Circumstances happen, and they trigger a sense of us, a

674
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 4: sense of community that pulls together, often against an enemy

675
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 4: if there is one that's like harming you, And so

676
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 4: that can be a good thing that creates solidarity and bonding.

677
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 4: And that's kind of I think the main function of identity, right,

678
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 4: go back to this evolutionary brain that we have, this

679
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 4: really old brain. It was creative because humans our main

680
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 4: capacity that is better than any other primate and almost

681
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 4: any other mammal or species on earth, is our capacity

682
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 4: for cooperation. We form groups that we cooperate unlike anything else.

683
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 4: That's why we can like go to outer space, that's

684
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 4: why we're all over the globe. It's because we can

685
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 4: cooperate insane. But of course it can have downside, Right,

686
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 4: you can cooperate to you know, engage in genocide or

687
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 4: something really awful too, So cooperation can have a dark

688
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 4: side if it's used for evil purposes.

689
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: Right, In a cultic situation, frequently the cult leader will

690
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: kind of generate like a heightened experience or it's often

691
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: called mystical manipulation. Would this be kind of fall under

692
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: that category of something that could increase group identity?

693
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's part of what cult leaders are doing,

694
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 4: is creating a sense of identity. Often what they're doing

695
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 4: is against the rest of society. So one of the

696
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 4: cults we talked about in our book was the Seekers,

697
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 4: and they said that they had a prophecy. The woman

698
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 4: who led it had a prophecy there was gonna be

699
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 4: this massive flood that was going to kill everybody. And

700
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 4: so this was like the crisis that led people to

701
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 4: join the cult and stick with it is because they thought, well,

702
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 4: we're part of something special and there's gonna be aliens

703
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 4: that are going to come down and like save us

704
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 4: for true believers.

705
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 3: But it was in response to this potential looming crisis.

706
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: Right, I feel like every element of a cult, it,

707
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: like the defining characteristics of it, are all ones that

708
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: would increase like outgroup animosity and make you know, make

709
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: us hostile to groups that are not our group, because

710
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: everything about it is like it's stripping your identity, it's

711
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: changing your name, it's creating this like heightened emotional experience,

712
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 2: and like you said, there's often a doomsday which you

713
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: all would unite around. That is that, like those things

714
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: making that shared identity stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger.

715
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: Does that is that part of why it's so hard

716
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: to get people out of cults, because their identities are

717
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: so baked at that point.

718
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, So imagine for a cult member, and I magine

719
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 4: if we gave them the I am blank task, they're

720
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 4: gonna say, I am you.

721
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: Know, a seeker or whatever their cult is.

722
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 4: But what the cult's done, and what exactly what you

723
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 4: describe the leaders done, is stripped away all those other

724
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 4: parts of their identity.

725
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: So instead of containing five or ten.

726
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 4: Or twenty different identities like a normal person, they've lost

727
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 4: all those kind of personal traits that they cared about.

728
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 4: They've lost all those other identities. They're no longer able

729
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 4: to engage in the things often that they that they love,

730
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 4: that are part of who they are. And another thing

731
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 4: that happens is like if they have let's say family

732
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 4: or friends outside the cults who are like saying, listen,

733
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 4: this doesn't sound right. You shouldn't be giving all your

734
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 4: money to this group. The cult often labels them like

735
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 4: suppressives or some other term and tries to cut you

736
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 4: off actively from your family and friends that used to have.

737
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 4: They try to also make you quit your job sometimes

738
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 4: so you can dedicate all your attention to the cult.

739
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 4: And so what they've done is systematically it's like chopping

740
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 4: off your limbs, but what they've chopped off is all

741
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 4: your other sources of identity.

742
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 1: Hmmm.

743
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: That's a good way to put it. For something like QAnon.

744
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: You know, obviously it's all online, but it's just like

745
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 2: the idea that something big and important is happening, and

746
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: I imagine that also would contribute to increasing that shared identity.

747
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the special thing that's going to happen too,

748
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 4: is not just the crisis. In the case of QAnon,

749
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 4: it was like starting with like the sex trafficking and

750
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 4: the pizza Gate. But it's also the special knowledge that

751
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 4: you're part of a group that knows the truth and

752
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 4: so you are on the inside. And so remember what

753
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 4: I said the two ingredients were to like really sticky groups, Right.

754
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 3: It's belongingness, which you have if you're a occult.

755
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 4: They often are very warm and supportive of you and

756
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 4: make you feel special in a sense of belonging, especially

757
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 4: when you first join. And the other thing that offer

758
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 4: is distinctiveness, is that we have special knowledge, we have

759
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 4: a special purpose, and we're doing something that's more important

760
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 4: than the rest to society. And so that's again it's

761
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 4: scratching those two inches that people have for belonginginess and distinctiveness,

762
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 4: and that makes cults really sticky for people.

763
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: It seems like the second one is almost more important,

764
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: Like your identity of not being the out group is

765
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: more important than your identity of being the in group.

766
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they'll often frame the out group as either

767
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 4: just roobs, like naive or stupid, or.

768
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: Or sometimes sinister.

769
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 4: Is that like the rest of the world is up

770
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 4: to has this sinister plot or agenda. They're being controlled

771
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 4: by people who are manipulating you. So that that's very

772
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 4: much like the QAnon vibe. And so we're going to

773
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 4: let you in on a special insider info about how

774
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 4: it's all corrupt and you can be part of this

775
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 4: group that's going to be kind of like anti corrupt.

776
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 4: And so all we think of cults, I think of

777
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 4: cults as an outsiders like pretty nefarious, manipulative, often abusive,

778
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 4: physically and sexually abusive and economically abusive groups.

779
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 3: But from the inside, what.

780
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 4: They're communicating to is that they're morally special, that they're virtuous,

781
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 4: and that they're against the things that are bad or

782
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 4: evil that are happening in the world.

783
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when when that much animosity happens within the group,

784
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: it can it would make it that much hurder. I

785
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 2: imagine to then not only lose your belongingness and your distinctiveness,

786
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: but also join this the like the bad ones, the

787
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 2: bad people. If you if you leave the group, you're

788
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: losing all of these things. I mean, it makes so

789
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 2: much sense that cult experts frequently talk about how you

790
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: can't directly attack the beliefs of the person in the

791
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: group because they have so much identity tied to it,

792
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 2: and you have to kind of sneakily get in other ways,

793
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: if you want to get through to someone.

794
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think of this a little bit.

795
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 4: Sometimes if you're talking to somebody who's really hardcore in

796
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 4: to politics, like an extremist, it's like you can they

797
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 4: can tell you something that they read and you can

798
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 4: debunk it. You can say, well, here's an article call

799
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 4: that disproves it, and then they just move to the

800
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 4: next belief that they have. It's it's like, well, your

801
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 4: group does this, and they don't even like changing their

802
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 4: beliefs often doesn't move them. And there's research on this

803
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 4: that if you fact check people's political beliefs.

804
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 3: That are wrong doesn't change you.

805
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 4: They're going to vote for And the reason is the

806
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 4: beliefs are often stemming from the identity rather than the

807
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 4: other way around. Identity is not emerging from these beliefs, right,

808
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 4: And so that's the thing about really strong committed identities

809
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 4: is just like trying to debunk them, which is kind

810
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 4: of like the rational person's approach, right, like, oh, you

811
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 4: have these false premises, I'll just like show you evidence

812
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 4: as are true. This is often what like family members

813
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 4: will do if they have a friend in a cult. Oh,

814
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 4: they're lying to you about this or X or did

815
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 4: you see this EXPOSI found online? But often that's not

816
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 4: enough to break them from it, because they'll find a

817
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 4: way to rationalize or justify their beliefs in some other way.

818
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: Right, it's an emotional psychological need that's being met. It's

819
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 2: not an informational need. We don't need, like facts aren't

820
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: doing anything for any of us. It's like that, it's

821
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: the feelings that the group gives us, or the sense

822
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: of purpose, you know.

823
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's why the reasons these groups prey on

824
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 4: people who are really lonely or don't have a sense

825
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 4: of purpose or distinctiveness, because they know that once we

826
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 4: feel that need, it's going to be you know, that

827
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 4: person's gonna be really committed to the group and have

828
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 4: a hard time leave it. And so I think that

829
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 4: that's one thing you have to understand it. It's kind of

830
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 4: like trying to tell somebody they're not hungry. It's like, well,

831
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 4: you just ate, didn't you? And if they're hungry, they're

832
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 4: just gonna be like, I don't care what you told

833
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 4: people what I just ate? I want more because I

834
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 4: have a rumbling in my stomach. And so like the

835
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 4: arguing with them is not going to really convince them

836
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 4: that they're not hungry, and so it's kind of you

837
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 4: have to think about it through that need level, that

838
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 4: their basic needs are being met by this group in

839
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 4: some pretty deep ways, and so that is something that

840
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: you're going to have to find a way to replace.

841
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: Wow, that is such a good analogy. I'm going to

842
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: steal it from you.

843
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: You feel like you don't have to give me credit.

844
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: I looked you up on rate my professor, and you

845
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: have a four point nine out of five and ninety

846
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: six percent would take your classes again, and I totally

847
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: understand why. Now, Yeah, I.

848
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: Know you're really good at it. So you're really good

849
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 1: at explaining things.

850
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: No, but I feel like.

851
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 3: You're enjoying my class any time.

852
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 4: If you want to talk about cults, I have a

853
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 4: huge class of three hundred and sixty people and I

854
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 4: bring in guests. So yeah, very you're interested in cult psychology,

855
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 4: I'll bring you in.

856
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 2: I love that. I would love to do that. Yeah,

857
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: just going back to the emotionally charged or difficult situations,

858
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 2: why do you think to go out to a more

859
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 2: societal level. Why do you think that nine to eleven

860
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 2: seemed to bring us together as a country, and wars

861
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 2: in the past brought Americans together, and COVID just outor

862
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 2: US apart, it did not have that same effect.

863
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 4: That's actually a really fantastic question and a hard one

864
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 4: to wrap your mind around. So one's just a reminder

865
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 4: and I'll give you some evidence on this.

866
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 3: After nine to eleven.

867
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 4: Support for George Bush, who was a president of the

868
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 4: United States, was around like forty five percent before nine

869
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 4: to eleven, and within a week it had gone up

870
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 4: to ninety percent. I think that's the highest approval rating

871
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 4: ever in history for an American president. And then eventually

872
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 4: it eroded and by time he left office it was

873
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 4: like thirty three percent of the lowest, the lowest ever.

874
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 3: But there was a moment.

875
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 4: Where there's huge sense of consensus. So why it was

876
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 4: a specifically attack on America and American values and American symbols, Right,

877
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 4: So I attacked the World Trade Center and the Pentagon

878
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 4: and they were going after was it the White House

879
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 4: or the Capitol? And so it was a specific attack

880
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 4: on America, and it was by an outside thread, was

881
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 4: by terrorist group of outsiders from other countries. And so

882
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 4: this is almost the exact ingredients you need to create

883
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 4: a sense of shared threat and shared identity. And so

884
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, things like Republican and Democrat identity

885
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 4: didn't matter. Or you know, if you're in like New

886
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 4: York State or California or Ohio or Idaho, that didn't matter.

887
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: It was a sense of America.

888
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 4: And by the way, people in you know, the other

889
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 4: parts of the country other than New York were.

890
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 3: Very anxious and threatened.

891
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 4: Even if they were like in rural Nebraska, they felt

892
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 4: like that they could be the targets of a terrorist threat.

893
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 4: And so you might say, well, that's irrational, that's kind

894
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 4: of what you know a person would have said to them,

895
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 4: But it didn't matter. That's what they felt. Felt that

896
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 4: their identity was under attack and seriously threatened. And so

897
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 4: that was the ingredients of nine to eleven. And obviously

898
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 4: we now know nine to eleven led to all these

899
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 4: terrible policy decisions and death and disaster in Iraq and Afghanistan,

900
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 4: and and hate crimes went up against you know, Muslims

901
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 4: in the United States. I had all these you know,

902
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 4: just because you rally together if there's a targeted outsider

903
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 4: who looks like this person, it can lead to kind

904
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 4: of collateral damage, of harassment and hate crimes against those

905
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 4: people in America, even if they don't support terrorism at all,

906
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 4: even if.

907
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 3: They're born in America, right, they're true Americans in every sense.

908
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 4: Okay, So that that is what the psychology there was,

909
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 4: and now the psychology of the pandemic, it could have

910
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 4: been like that, but it mattered a lot how it's

911
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 4: handled handled by leaders. And so what happened in the

912
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 4: United States is and I've done a lot of research

913
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 4: on the pandemic, and why I got polarized, why it

914
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,800
Speaker 4: happened in the United States is because I think Donald

915
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 4: Trump and especially like Fox News and influencers who are

916
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 4: supporting Donald Trum down played the risk of the pandemic,

917
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 4: and Democratic leaders took.

918
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 3: It very seriously.

919
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 4: And so Trump was saying in January that it wasn't

920
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 4: going to be a big deal. He said this through February,

921
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 4: he said this into March. I have like all the

922
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 4: video clips of it. As early as January. Joe Biden,

923
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 4: who wasn't even the nominee yet for the Democrats, wrote

924
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,919
Speaker 4: an article in USA Today saying Trump was the worst

925
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 4: possible leader to handle the pandemic, and so he had

926
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 4: like the future president and future leader of Democrats and

927
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 4: the leader of Republicans treating it very differently. And that

928
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 4: happened throughout much of the pandemic, and things changed a

929
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: little bit. But the you know, Democrats were locked down

930
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 4: much more. You know, Trump was throwing huge like campaign

931
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 4: rallies and events when it wasn't when it wasn't advisable

932
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 4: before vaccines were available. And so the pandemic here and

933
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 4: all the data backs is up, was polarized from the

934
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 4: very earliest stages, from February and March of twenty twenty,

935
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 4: and it never really returned. Republicans were more against masks,

936
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 4: they were far less likely to get vaccinated.

937
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 3: In fact, we have some data showing.

938
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 4: That whether you're from a Republican or Democratic part of

939
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 4: the country, it was the single biggest predictor of vaccination rates.

940
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 4: We talked a lot about things like race or socio

941
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 4: economic status, poverty, education, none of those things was remotely

942
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 4: close to just your partisan affiliation.

943
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 3: Okay, so that gives you a sense.

944
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 4: Of how that worked and so, but it didn't have

945
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 4: to be that case. I looked in data sixty seven

946
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 4: countries in a study I ran and whether you're conservative

947
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 4: or liberal was almost completely uncorrelated with your attitude towards

948
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 4: the pandemic around the rest of the world, and so

949
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 4: it didn't have to be polarized in the US. If

950
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 4: Trump had taken it seriously from day one, you would

951
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 4: have seen no polarization. That would have been much more

952
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 4: of a source of shared identity. So that's why leaders

953
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 4: are so important. They can make things a source to

954
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 4: rally together or divide people and focus on different groups

955
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 4: and political parties instead of American identity.

956
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah. And actually, if you do identify as

957
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: a Democrat or a liberal, whatever, your leadership is saying

958
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: one thing, Like if Democrats had also decided to not

959
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 2: take it seriously, maybe we would have all united around

960
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 2: not taking it seriously. But our different leaders were saying

961
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: different things, which was also very confusing. I think for

962
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: real other.

963
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 3: People, it's a health disaster.

964
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 4: I think I ran the numbers on from Canada. In Canada,

965
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 4: there's polarizations a conservative party, liberal party. But there was

966
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 4: a really good study analyzing their leaders rhetoric in the

967
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 4: early months of the pandemic, and they both took it seriously.

968
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: And then you look at national polls.

969
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 4: And Canadians both from across the spectrum ticket seriously, and

970
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 4: that changed after a couple of years in vaccine mandates.

971
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 4: But for two years and then the death rate in

972
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 4: Canada was way way lower than the United States, And

973
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 4: so it was totally something that could have gone another

974
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 4: way if if leaders had been on the same page

975
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 4: about it.

976
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 3: In the US.

977
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's it's very scary. I mean,

978
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: the wrong leader, just saying the wrong thing can have

979
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 2: such an impact on and so many lives. I have

980
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 2: nothing smart to say about that other than that I

981
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 2: wish that we weren't so drawn to the dark triad characteristics.

982
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I wish that there was something that we

983
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 2: could do to not make ourselves want to follow the really,

984
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 2: really loud, self obsessed people.

985
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, this is this is one of the

986
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 4: reasons we wrote our book is to try to teach

987
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 4: people about how groups work so they can make them better.

988
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 4: You know, whether it's like their own, like you know,

989
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 4: fan group, or there's any trivia club or something like that,

990
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 4: or their daughter's soccer team they're coaching, or if it's

991
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 4: like society. We have to understand how we're being manipulated,

992
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 4: how identity is often being used against us, and that's

993
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 4: the that's the part of cult psychology that's so interesting, right, Like,

994
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 4: if you understand how you're being manipulated, how they're cutting

995
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 4: you off from family and friends, how they're eliminating your

996
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 4: other sources of identity, then maybe you'll be like, you'll

997
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 4: have a little like spidy sense. It gets tingled when

998
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 4: you interact with somebody who's trying to like, you know,

999
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 4: lure you into a group with those types of traits,

1000
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 4: you'll identify it as more toxic and escape it sooner.

1001
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 4: And so that's kind of the thing that we want

1002
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 4: to do, is like if you give people the knowledge,

1003
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 4: you're building up their own immunity.

1004
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 3: You know, we'll go back to the pandemic.

1005
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 4: It's kind of like building up their own immunity to

1006
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 4: when they encounter that because it is like a virus

1007
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 4: and it's contagious and it can be very damaging to

1008
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 4: groups of people.

1009
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 2: How does group identity evolve from just feeling connected to

1010
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: our group to just straight up hating people in the

1011
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: other group. That is that a leadership thing or is

1012
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,439
Speaker 2: that more like something charged happens and we need someone

1013
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 2: to blame for it like, how does that happen?

1014
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 3: A great question?

1015
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 4: So usually I started with that great study where people

1016
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 4: flip a coin and great two groups.

1017
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 3: That usually doesn't lead to outgroup hat.

1018
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 4: In fact, we've find lots of studies and usually what

1019
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 4: it does is just boost your positive feelings towards the

1020
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 4: in group and wanting resources for the in group. But

1021
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 4: it doesn't necessarily lead you to want to dislike or

1022
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 4: punish the outgroup. The really the height of the outgroup

1023
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 4: stems from leadership. It stems developing specific negative stereotypes about them,

1024
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 4: and I would argue the two other biggest things that

1025
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 4: drive it are competition for scarce resources, so like only

1026
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 4: one party gets power or only one group gets the

1027
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 4: sacred land. And then the other part about sacred is

1028
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 4: morality is once you think the other group is doing

1029
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 4: something evil, then it's impossible to cooperate with them.

1030
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 3: It's one thing that I think that other group's just stupid.

1031
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 4: Or incompetent, because you can always like work with them

1032
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 4: or cooperate with them at some level. But if you

1033
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 4: think they're doing something evil, you will do everything you

1034
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 4: can to stop them. You'll really despise them. And so

1035
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:38,919
Speaker 4: a lot of the rhetoric of leaders who are really

1036
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 4: kind of the bad kind of leaders or cult leaders

1037
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 4: are trying to convince you that this other group or

1038
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 4: this other thing happening is actually evil. It's not just

1039
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 4: that it's wrong or that it's dumb, but that it's evil.

1040
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 4: And that seems to be a real motivator to mobilize

1041
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 4: people into a tight group, but also to get them

1042
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 4: to really hate that other group.

1043
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 2: Right, That's so interesting was making connections in many different

1044
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: areas of life as you were saying that, you know,

1045
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 2: I see that on both sides of the political aisle.

1046
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: For sure, there's a moralizing how the other people must

1047
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 2: possess no morality whatsoever, and also in culture groups and

1048
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 2: the way that you know, often the public will look

1049
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 2: at a look at members of a cult and assume

1050
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: that they are all evil rather than that they are

1051
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: being manipulated or abused in some way. And then you know,

1052
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: that can just lead to further like the people in

1053
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: the group doubling down on what they believe because they're

1054
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: being told that they're evil, which is an attack on

1055
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 2: their identity.

1056
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, So that's the other thing that really

1057
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 4: gets people to rally, and this happens a lot with

1058
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 4: polarization in the US.

1059
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 3: Is one of the.

1060
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 4: Reasons people hate the other party is because they think

1061
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 4: the other party really hates them. And so if you

1062
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 4: just communicate that actually, the other group doesn't hate you

1063
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 4: nearly as much as you think, they chill out a

1064
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 4: little bit and become much more open.

1065
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 3: Minded and willing to engage with that person.

1066
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 4: But part of it is they've been told constantly by

1067
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 4: leaders by like extreme TV and news and radio and

1068
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 4: social media that they're watching that the other party on

1069
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 4: average really despises and disrespects them and hates them and

1070
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 4: thinks they're evil. And so that's one of the things

1071
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 4: that is a real way to create conflict is just

1072
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 4: convince people that the other side hates them.

1073
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 3: Right, Oh, it's kind of like I tell you all

1074
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 3: the ways you're being manipulated.

1075
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 4: I also realized, like this would be terrible if some

1076
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 4: dictator got a hold of this podcast.

1077
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 1: No dictators, listen to this, turn it off right now.

1078
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 3: The toolbox for manipulation.

1079
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I'm literally in a Netflix series called How to

1080
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: Become a Cult Leader. I'm in I am in that series,

1081
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 2: but I don't want anyone to actually do it.

1082
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: No, No, don't do it.

1083
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 2: So if somebody wanted to intervene with someone and we

1084
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: talked about it a little, but maybe you have more

1085
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: wisdom on this. With someone who's in a cult or

1086
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: like really lodged in a group, thinky situation, like what

1087
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 2: would be a constructive way to signal to that person

1088
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 2: that you are not the enemy and kind of start

1089
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: a conversation.

1090
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the first thing I would say is like,

1091
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 4: don't attack their beliefs, like we talked about, try to listen,

1092
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 4: understand where they're coming from and what this group's doing

1093
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 4: for them. Another thing you can do is ask them questions, Oh,

1094
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 4: why do you stick with them?

1095
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 3: What do you like about them?

1096
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 4: You know, ask them questions that get them to think

1097
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 4: more critically and deeply about what they're doing.

1098
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 3: And people often really comfortable with that.

1099
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,439
Speaker 4: And then sometimes they realize they don't know why they're

1100
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 4: doing it, or it starts to not make sense to them.

1101
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 4: But you know, this is just like classic socratic questioning,

1102
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 4: and it gets them to realize, like some of the

1103
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 4: explanations they've been told don't make sense, some of the

1104
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 4: stories they've heard at the cult don't make sense.

1105
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 3: So that's one thing. You can do the other thing.

1106
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 3: And this is really key.

1107
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 4: And this is for like, let's say if your family

1108
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 4: members are deeping QAnon and I have an uncle who

1109
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 4: I think has gone down that rabbit hole. It really sucks.

1110
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 4: I really care about this person. The instinct you have

1111
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 4: and I have, is like cut them off, block them

1112
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 4: on social media, don't engage with them. And over time

1113
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 4: I realize that's probably the wrong instinct. What you want

1114
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 4: to do is keep an open relationship with them so

1115
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 4: that when they're ready to come out, that they know

1116
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 4: that they can talk to you and you will be

1117
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 4: supportive and non judgmental. And I think if it is

1118
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 4: similar to like someone who's imagine you had a friend

1119
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 4: and I've had a friend in an abusive relationship and

1120
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 4: they're not ready to leave it. You can't just drag

1121
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 4: them out of it. They've got to be ready to leave.

1122
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 4: But it's really important that they know that they have

1123
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 4: supports when they are ready to leave, because if they've

1124
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 4: lost all those connections and supports, which is by the way,

1125
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 4: that's what abusive partners do is cut their partners off

1126
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 4: from all their family and friends and isolate them. Is

1127
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 4: you need to be there so that they know that

1128
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 4: they have a rope to escape. And so that's the

1129
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 4: other thing is you need to be there. I think

1130
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 4: if you have someone who's gone down this extreme pathway

1131
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 4: into these kind of cult or conspiracy mentalities, that you're

1132
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 4: going to be there, that you're going to be non judgmental,

1133
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 4: that you're going to support them, that you care about

1134
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 4: them as a person, regardless of if you disagree on

1135
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 4: this thing.

1136
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 3: You shouldn't obviously agree on.

1137
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 4: It, but I think it's like important to signal that

1138
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 4: you're there check in on them, because what happens is

1139
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 4: as they go deeper and deeper than the cult, that's

1140
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 4: often the first stage.

1141
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 3: They often enjoy it.

1142
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 4: It's a group of people, it's really fun, it's engaging,

1143
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 4: presence of community, of belonging, distinctiveness. But then often once

1144
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 4: you go deeper down, then you start to get manipulated, abused,

1145
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 4: black blackmail, misled, And so you want to be there

1146
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 4: for when they start to realize that's too much and

1147
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 4: they start having these feelings of like cognitive dissonance, like

1148
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 4: this doesn't feel right.

1149
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 3: You want to be there to let them know that

1150
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 3: there's some offend for them.

1151
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: Right.

1152
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 2: Literally yesterday, a very good friend of mine who has

1153
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 2: been in what, in my opinion, is an abusive relationship,

1154
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 2: called me. And they have no other friends left in

1155
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 2: their life, but called me and asked if I would

1156
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 2: support them if they left their partner.

1157
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 6: Oh wow, So what did you do to signal to

1158
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 6: that friend that it was safe at any time to

1159
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 6: call you even though they have no more friends and

1160
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 6: family in touch with them.

1161
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 2: Well, initially my response to their partner was to be like,

1162
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 2: they're bad, they're bad for you, look at what they're doing,

1163
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 2: They're bad for you. That clearly didn't work, so I

1164
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 2: changed tack and started telling them I support whatever decision

1165
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 2: you make. I want you to be happy, and if

1166
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 2: this is making you happy, I support that and just

1167
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 2: continue to call them even when I wasn't really hearing

1168
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,399
Speaker 2: from them a lot. So you know, listen, maybe they won't,

1169
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 2: maybe this attempt won't succeed, because that's very common, but

1170
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: it does make me feel like, Okay, I did I

1171
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 2: did the right thing.

1172
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, amazing, that's like, you know, almost textbook what I

1173
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 4: would have recommended.

1174
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:20,439
Speaker 3: So it sounds like you.

1175
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 4: It's just now take that and apply that to a

1176
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 4: friend who's in a cult or conspiratorial community?

1177
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: Right?

1178
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: Totally. Ugh, it's exciting. Yeah, it's exciting to make all

1179
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: these connections.

1180
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 2: I know, are groups good? Can they be good? I

1181
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 2: just feel like there's so much potential for bad and

1182
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 2: I know they can be good, but I need you

1183
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 2: to tell me.

1184
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 4: Okay, so this is a conceptual Well, first, let me

1185
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 4: ask you both off the top of your head, on average,

1186
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,399
Speaker 4: ignoring what I've talked about today, do you think groups.

1187
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 3: Are forces for good or evil in the world? Are neutral?

1188
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: Both?

1189
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 6: Both?

1190
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 2: Yah?

1191
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: Both?

1192
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1193
00:53:58,440 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 3: Both?

1194
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 2: But I would say in the past, like a few years,

1195
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 2: it's I just feel like I'm getting inundated with evidence

1196
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: of their badness, so it's hard for me to like

1197
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 2: remember that there is goodness to it as well.

1198
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: And I've never been in a good group project, so.

1199
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 2: Your projects are the worst.

1200
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: So I'm going to go with leaning towards back.

1201
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, So I think groups are both. They had

1202
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 4: the potential to be good or bad. It's the leadership

1203
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 4: and the and the culture norms we create in them

1204
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 4: that matters. The problem is that the way that the

1205
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 4: media and social media present things is they find the

1206
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 4: worst examples. So we'll talk way more about QAnon than

1207
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 4: we will about a community group that's like you know,

1208
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 4: give you know, running a soup kitchen or like cleaning

1209
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,760
Speaker 4: up the neighborhood. Right, that stuff doesn't make the news.

1210
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 4: It's not that interesting. There's no podcasts on it. It's

1211
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 4: funner to talk about these groups that are really pathological,

1212
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 4: and we can't stop it because it is important to

1213
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 4: understand them.

1214
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 3: But it's just also more interesting.

1215
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 4: It's the same reason there's like, I mean, I love

1216
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,800
Speaker 4: these movies like like Seria, serial killer movies like Dahmer

1217
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 4: and stuff. Will endlessly be talking about Jeffrey Dahmer and

1218
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 4: serial killers even though they're incredibly rare.

1219
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:09,760
Speaker 3: The vast majority of people would.

1220
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 4: Never couldn't do that even if they wanted to. And

1221
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 4: so that's one of the things I have to understand.

1222
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 4: Individuals like serial killers are rare, and it doesn't mean

1223
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 4: people are intrinsically evil, And groups, even though they can

1224
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 4: be like Quanon or cults, can do evil things too,

1225
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 4: even though.

1226
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 3: They're not intrinsically evil.

1227
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 4: So it's just the same logic you apply to individuals,

1228
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 4: you should apply to groups and understand, you know, I

1229
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 4: go to like you is Clara a big sports fan.

1230
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 4: You know, I took my stepdad for his birthday to

1231
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 4: a hockey game and it's like twenty thousand people with

1232
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 4: their arch rivals. People are yelling, they're all in their uniforms,

1233
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 4: some people of face paint, but like not a single

1234
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 4: semblance of violence, like light. I'm surrounded by people with

1235
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 4: jerseys from the other teams and they were in a

1236
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 4: bigger pool of people from the home team, and no

1237
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 4: one harassed anybody. They give them some light ribbing and stuff. Right,

1238
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 4: But this happens every day, all day, NonStop, with huge

1239
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 4: crowds with our tribals playing each other, and it almost

1240
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,399
Speaker 4: never ever spills over to anything bad or violent, even

1241
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 4: though you think, well, our nature is to be group.

1242
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 4: Is you put fifty thousand people in a stadium, get

1243
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 4: them all riled up, get them wearing the same thing

1244
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 4: and chanting.

1245
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 3: It's not going to be good, but almost always as good.

1246
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 3: And so it's the reason is because we have.

1247
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 4: Norms and expectations about what it means to be a

1248
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,240
Speaker 4: sports fan, that certain things are allowed like light, redving

1249
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 4: and teasing, but not to cross the line. And so

1250
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 4: I think that you can do that with any group,

1251
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 4: that we can scale that to huge groups, we can

1252
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 4: scale it to countries, a.

1253
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 3: Lot of countries.

1254
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 4: We can think national borders would lead to more war,

1255
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 4: but there's actually been way less people dying for war

1256
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 4: than there were one hundred years ago.

1257
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 3: In fact, for now, part of.

1258
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 4: Like this the most peaceful last fifty years in human

1259
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 4: history in terms of group warfare. And so we've gotten

1260
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 4: better and better by creating healthier norms and institutions. So

1261
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 4: that's why I think like the lesson from all this

1262
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 4: is that we have this disposition is evolutionary, evolutionarily very

1263
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 4: old brain with this potential, but we can harness it

1264
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 4: in way is that like do these amazing things, or

1265
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 4: we can let evil people harness in ways that cause conflicts.

1266
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 4: I think it's like for us not to be manipulated

1267
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 4: by the evil people and then the burdens on us

1268
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 4: for to create healthy groups.

1269
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 3: And that means like even if it's like a study

1270
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 3: group or a work group.

1271
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 4: You know, there's lots I've been the person like at

1272
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 4: midnight the night before trying to finish the group project

1273
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 4: because no one showed up at my house or carried

1274
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 4: their role. And so it's like ever since then I've

1275
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 4: been always thinking, Okay, well, how can we assign the

1276
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 4: tasks more fairly?

1277
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 3: How can we set a schedule? And now I've got

1278
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 3: that that's like an art I can run. I do

1279
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 3: group projects all day long.

1280
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 4: With my research team and it's like smooth and fun

1281
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 4: and easy and almost no conflict. But it took many

1282
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 4: years of figuring out how to master it. And I

1283
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 4: think that's the thing about groups. It's like a skill.

1284
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 4: Managing a group is a skill, and you can do

1285
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 4: it well or you can leave it to the people

1286
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 4: who were going to do it not well. Those will

1287
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 4: be your narcissists in your psychopaths and your Machiavellian type people,

1288
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 4: and then they're always going to be there. They're going

1289
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 4: to try to get power and run groups and organizations

1290
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 4: and we have to kind of like stand up against

1291
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:01,919
Speaker 4: them and let them be the only people who have

1292
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 4: that that power and that that voice.

1293
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 2: Right, So what I'm hearing is that we need to

1294
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 2: start another podcast that just talks about good groups. Good

1295
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 2: group be really boring podcast.

1296
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 4: What would be what would be the opposite of a cult?

1297
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 4: So think of it, like, what is a group that's

1298
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 4: the opposite of cult?

1299
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 3: In your mind.

1300
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 1: A community, A chess club, yeah, a little community, the

1301
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: people who like swim every morning or something. Just you know,

1302
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: it's not your whole life, but it gives you a

1303
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: sense of belongingnes and meaning.

1304
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean opposite of a cult. Every group has

1305
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: the potential to be cool.

1306
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:35,959
Speaker 1: But in.

1307
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 2: And morning swim group club, No, I mean there are many, and.

1308
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 4: They're all surrounding us, Like people who love book clubs

1309
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 4: and I have a writer's group. We have all these

1310
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 4: little things that like we don't think of but are

1311
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 4: really like the air we breathe, because that's actually what

1312
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 4: we do most of the day, is like moving and

1313
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 4: out of like actually probably pretty healthy groups.

1314
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well this has been so enlightening and I

1315
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 2: feel like a little shred of hope about humanity from

1316
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 2: this conversation. So thank you for that. Do you want

1317
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 2: to tell people what your book is and where they

1318
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 2: can find you and your work?

1319
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 3: Yeah? Great. So my name is Jay van Babel.

1320
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 4: My book is called The Power of Us and it

1321
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 4: was written with Dominic Packer, and we have a website

1322
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 4: called Power off Us dot online where you can look

1323
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 4: at summary of the book. We also have a free

1324
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 4: newsletter that comes out weekly where we talk about all

1325
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 4: kinds of stuff like this, cults and groups and organizations

1326
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 4: and politics, and we also try to make it all

1327
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 4: based on science and evidence. That's kind of also kind of,

1328
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 4: in my view, the opposite of a cult, which is

1329
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 4: all mythology and narrative and manipulation.

1330
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 3: We try to make people smarter about groups.

1331
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 4: So if you want to get smarter about groups, if

1332
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 4: you please buy the book or join the newsletter and

1333
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 4: hopefully help you on that pathway.

1334
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 2: I love it. Thank you so much for joining us.

1335
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me. This is a lot

1336
00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 3: of fun. I love to talk about this stuff. Yeah.

1337
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 1: Oh my god, he's so cool like me.

1338
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're the coolest.

1339
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 1: Okay. So is there any group that you hate so

1340
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 1: much that you end up identifying with the opposite thing,

1341
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 1: even though you're not completely sold on their message.

1342
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 2: That I hate so much. I don't know if I

1343
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 2: would use the word hate, but I think that, like

1344
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 2: I do, I definitely notice that when I'm talking to

1345
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 2: a man and he is really drawn to a particular

1346
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 2: set of figures who we've talked about a little bit

1347
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 2: on here, like people in the intellectual dark web or whatever,

1348
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 2: Like if he really likes Ben Shapiro or really likes

1349
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 2: you know, Dave Ruben or Jordan Peterson. I have an

1350
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 2: instant aversion to it, and it makes me I find

1351
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: myself casting judgments on him and then wanting to go

1352
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 2: to the other side of and like I've like literally

1353
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 2: like found myself being like, oh my god, I have

1354
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 2: to find the community of people who hate these guys,

1355
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 2: which of course is not correct. I mean, I recognize that,

1356
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 2: and I have and I have like made efforts to

1357
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 2: like actually try to see what it is that is

1358
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 2: in their messaging that's resonating with people, because I think

1359
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: that's really important because obviously it's so many, it's like

1360
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 2: millions of people who love these guys. There's something about

1361
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 2: them that's like appealing to people, and I want to

1362
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 2: see what that is. But my first instinct that I'm

1363
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 2: fighting against is definitely like no.

1364
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 1: Bad you, reality show idea you and Ben Shapiro an

1365
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: Island go.

1366
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 2: And then what we fuck?

1367
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 6: Like no you fight and.

1368
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: Then you find peace. God maybe it's through fucking I.

1369
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: Don't know, no, uh. I mean, part of my version,

1370
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 2: I think comes from how much I see them railing

1371
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 2: against any progressive values. Like, so I see how much

1372
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 2: it's like their whole platform is based on like not

1373
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 2: wanting to have to use people's chosen pronouns or you know,

1374
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 2: a resistance to what they view as police of language,

1375
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 2: which I think can be true sometimes, but they do

1376
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 2: it so vehemently that it makes me feel like, oh,

1377
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 2: they hate me and my values, so I need to

1378
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 2: hate them back.

1379
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:09,959
Speaker 1: And that's what he said.

1380
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 4: That is, but he's.

1381
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: The oh my god, wow, we fixed it. It's done, guys.

1382
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I but that I think that is a

1383
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 2: really a big part of it. They're like trying to

1384
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 2: own libs and own libs and own libs and you know,

1385
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 2: and I'm like, well that's me. So it's like leave

1386
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 2: me alone then, guy.

1387
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you get them served, You got served.

1388
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 2: I get it. But like I said, I don't I

1389
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 2: don't think people who listen to those guys, I don't

1390
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 2: think there's anything inherently wrong or bad about those people.

1391
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 2: I think that, like, I just personally have an aversion

1392
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 2: to those to that way of viewing the world. Yeah,

1393
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: and hopefully you can find common ground with all the

1394
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 2: three men who listen to this podcast who also like

1395
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 2: those guys.

1396
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, give lit a little note in our end box.

1397
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: We are so glad y'all joined us this. We cannot

1398
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 1: wait to see you here again next week, and as always,

1399
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flags,

1400
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: and never ever trust me. Bye bye you.

1401
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1402
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1403
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para and.

1404
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1405
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1406
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,959
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1407
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1408
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 2: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1409
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1410
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1411
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.